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[Spoiler] Is (S)he truly a bad guy?


Cronospere.8143

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Okay hear me out.

Since the beginning of this season I get the strange feeling Jormag isn't a bad guy. Latest episode "Jormag Rising" only feeds my suspicion.

See these whispers from Jormag in episode 1:

_ Braham Eirsson: My fault? If I had been there...Unknown: So much pain... He needs rest... (later confirmed to be Jormag)

....

Braham Eirsson: A cave in this forest... That's where Jhavi is. And the lens—must be reacting because of her. But what about Almorra?Unknown: Let me help you...

....Jormag: Champion.Jormag: It's time I treat you with the respect you deserve. Speak face-to-face.Rytlock Brimstone: That voice...Jormag: The air is thick with change. I feel it, even as I dream beneath the ice.Braham Eirsson: Jormag.Jormag: You fear me as you feared Kralkatorrik. That is natural. But ice fortifies. Ice protects.Jormag: All this war, all this pain... Aurene wants to end it. And I can help her. I want to help her.Jormag: Terrible things lurk just beyond the horizon. But you can bring eternal peace to our world.Jormag: In time, you'll realize you need me. And when you do...Jormag: I'll be waiting.

....

Episode 2:

Crecia Stoneglow: Watch it! They're everywhere!Jormag: You're here to kill Drakkar, but why do you bring weapons when you know words will suffice?Braham Eirsson: Your words make people kill each other!Jormag: Maybe you should listen...

.....Jormag: If they kill Drakkar, who's next?Crecia Stoneglow: If we kill Drakkar, then what? Who's next? You'd kill Bangar. Then Ryland... Destroy the legions to stop Jormag.

.....

The Whisper of Jormag: Commander. It's finally time for us to talk.The Whisper of Jormag: I understand why you want to silence me, but you must listen. For Tyria's sake.The Whisper of Jormag: For thousands of years, I've watched this broken system consume entire civilizations.The Whisper of Jormag: But it was not always this way. You, Aurene, and I—we can save this world. Preserve it.

.... _

Now in this episode Jormag spared us all and while now being free, he doesn't attack Tyria.

See these lines from Aurene in the last episode:

Aurene: I wish I knew. I sense Jormag moving through Tyria, taking advantage of the Mists as Kralkatorrik did.Aurene: Yet they choose neither to consume nor destroy. Pleasant change of pace, but disturbing nonetheless.

Now with all this information, it feels to me that Jormag is preparing for something far worse than him and us.There seems to be not a single moment in the season of which he truly speaks evil. It's always about trying to help and trying to convince us he isn't the bad guy.We as a main character presume the worst thinking he is trying to convert us. But what if he is speaking the truth?

Let me just saying now:

Either i'm converted by Jormag or he will be our ally soon.

EDIT: As some pointed out, Jormag is actually a she

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Also: in the announcement trailer Jormag says: (1:42 - 1:57)

Join me and you will have the strenght to protect your people from the trials to come.Stand against me and you'll stand alone..

He doesn't say we will be his enemy. but that we will be alone in the next major thing that will hunt us..

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It’s an interesting thought but my confidence in the game delivering a good story is non-existent. But after what Jormag did to Bangar who knows. He might be fighting for Tyria after all because we all know Ryland is the prodigal son in this story. Crecia can’t be denied, she’s the writers favorite character.

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@"anninke.7469" said:So you say what Jormag said is true because... Jormag said it? Am I getting your point right?

Well he does not in any way threaten us. Kralkattorik wasn't a bad guy at start either. The amount of magic drove him mad and conflicting in its head. All this time since the start of gw2 we are fighting with the idea that elder dragons are bad guys. Now we have Aurene, we have the struggling kralk and i just get the feeling that the PC automaticly assumes jormag is bad. Because, well we thats what they always said right? In every conversation with Jormag the PC is the one talking bad. saying Jormag is bad.

Until this point, we have attacked jormags minions, not the other way around. Right? We followed bangar, to well kill bangar. but has there been any attack from jormag towards us? or was he simply defending "his" territory?

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Jormag doesn't appear to be a bad guy because that's his strongest weapon: Manipulation.Most dragons corrupt people by force, Jormag is much more insidious than that.

I don't believe a word Jormag is saying at this point because that's how Jormag corrupts, not with violence, but with words.

"while now being free, he doesn't attack Tyria."

Because he knows he doesn't stand a chance, stronger dragons than him have tried and died.Now with Aurene on our side (A dragon with the combined power of multiple dragons, a god and an undead lich) Jormag knows that a direct assault would be futile.

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The very first thing Jormag did this Saga was puppeteer the corpse of Almorra Soulkeeper to lure the Commander into a Svanir trap at Jora's Keep

Throughout the plot we've seen them manipulating people to suicide or madness through Drakkar, who was specifically stated as being a relay for the Dragon's will, meaning everything he did Jormag specifically wanted. This included trying to turn two of our close allies against us by getting into their heads and twisting their fears against us

They've been holding the lesser spirits of the wild in tortured imprisonment for decades in order to feed off of their magic

They also directly thanked Bangar for sacrificing his own race to build them an army, which it now seems is the only reason they were using him as a pawn in the first place

I appreciate there's an argument to be made that a being as ancient as Jormag might have a different view on morality than us mortals and maybe it could be said that they're looking at a bigger picture. However the only times we've ever heard that maybe Jormag might be alright was when the Dragon themself was talking to us through our mind, a power that they've also used on multiple occasions to try and subliminally convince us that our teammates are against us and that it'd be better if we just lay down and gave in

It feels to me less like Jormag spared the Commander because they didn't want to kill them and more because we have a greater part yet to play in their plans

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@"Khanco.1584" said:

It feels to me less like Jormag spared the Commander because they didn't want to kill them and more because we have a greater part yet to play in their plans

Not only that, but if Jormag truly wants to manipulate people into following him, killing one of Tyria's greatest and most famous heroes would be counter productive. On the contrary, Jormag probably wants the Commander on his side more than anything. What better way to sell the idea that he is the "good guy" than getting the Pact Commander, the slayer of dragons, on your side.

Sparing the Commander is probably just a means to an end, not a sign of benevolence.

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Isn't the whole shtick of Jormag survival of the fittest, so the strong survive.What if those that get corrupted are not "blessed" but cursed since they were too weak and succumbed to his will so he will just use them as a pawn to test the "worthy" for whatever his plan is.

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I think Jormag's just playing a long-term game with the Commander and allies, just like they did with Bangar to get the Frost Legion army. Not sure what the end goal is, but they could be using the commander to kill off the remaining elder dragons (especially Primordus) for them. Primordus is Jormag's weakness, was able to damage Jormag based on the Jormag shards achievement, and has been regaining strength recently, so using the commander to fight Primordus and then somehow absorb the energy would be a big win for Jormag. I do expect Jormag to turn on us the moment they get whatever it is they want though.

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@"Ashantara.8731" said:Jormag isn't a "he". Just saying.

I can't believe I missed that. In my mind it was always a He.

@"Windu The Forbidden One.6045" said:

@"Khanco.1584" said:

It feels to me less like Jormag spared the Commander because they didn't want to kill them and more because we have a greater part yet to play in their plans

Not only that, but if Jormag truly wants to manipulate people into following him, killing one of Tyria's greatest and most famous heroes would be counter productive. On the contrary, Jormag probably wants the Commander on his side more than anything. What better way to sell the idea that he is the "good guy" than getting the Pact Commander, the slayer of dragons, on your side.

Sparing the Commander is probably just a means to an end, not a sign of benevolence.

Strong argument. I think you might be right. Jormag is a smart elder dragon.I wonder what she knows about whats coming. But it must be something big.

Whatever way we are going, either we join Jormag, or we need Jormag to ally with us.. I think we will struggle for a while, but eventually we are going to need Jormag too.

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What would Jormag be needing that army for, then?

Here is what I expect to see happen, and I'll put it in spoiler tags just in case.

! Jormag wants to get rid of Primordus and is going to use their new army to do so. Why? Not sure yet, but a possible motivation could be because they are each others' weakness as we discovered in season 3. We all know if one more dragon bites the dust, the world ends, so that isn't an option for us to take. But perhaps Jormag seeks to take their rival's magic for themselves. Is there a risk that the excess magic will drive them to madness like it did with Kralkatorrik? So many questions... Whichever happens will surely spell doom for us.

I'd like to believe that Jormag isn't the villain this time, and they really do want to help us. It would be a cool twist, but they've tricked before. Surely they will trick again.

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Meta reason: I'm inclined to think no, simply because the percentage of female villains in Guild Wars 2 is... sexist levels of small. Everyone points to Scarlett then sort of just shrugs and goes back to a male-dominated villain scene. Scarlett didn't even have agency ffs, she was a dragon minion. Heck, a disturbing number of the female characters with "agency" ended up being dragon minions. Same with female characters getting killed to motivate poorly written males. (RIP Eir.) Apologies, you didn't ask for a rant, but Guild Wars 2 is pretty sexist about this and it irks me.

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@Spanex.1950 said:What would Jormag be needing that army for, then?

Here is what I expect to see happen, and I'll put it in spoiler tags just in case.

! Jormag wants to get rid of Primordus and is going to use their new army to do so. Why? Not sure yet, but a possible motivation could be because they are each others' weakness as we discovered in season 3. We all know if one more dragon bites the dust, the world ends, so that isn't an option for
us
to take. But perhaps Jormag seeks to take their rival's magic for themselves. Is there a risk that the excess magic will drive them to madness like it did with Kralkatorrik? So many questions... Whichever happens will surely spell doom for us.

I'd like to believe that Jormag isn't the villain this time, and they really do want to help us. It would be a cool twist, but they've tricked before. Surely they will trick again.

As someone who plays mainly Norns, this would be the stupid twist that I ever seen...and I wouldnt even be surprised if Anet pulled this one...like they did with Koda, were countless of Kodan tells you about how Dragons are agents of corruption and destruction, and is their duty to fight them to keep the balance in the world...and years later is revealed that Dragons actually keep the balance in the world, AKA, Kodan and the teachings of Koda are full of shit lol

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Eh. I dunno, I'm easy to please I suppose, but I fail to see what's so bad about that idea. The fact that the Koda were wrong about dragons only shows how yes, even they make mistakes. It makes them human, for lack of better term. But do remember I don't expect Jormag to be a goody two-shoes like they're claiming. I expect it's just another trick like usual.

Anyway, I'd be pretty hyped if I turn out to be right with my prediction, but I do would love some questions answered that get raised with it. I'm sure Anet has that covered, though.

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It is simple bois, there is fire dragon called Primordius and he also sleep. Fire is counter to ice. So it is obvious that ice(Jormag)will fight fire(Primordius) while it is silent in way to prevent worse scenarios. Devs made everything obvious and story is sad, nothing new, everything predictable. Guess how water dragon gonna appear in Cantha expansion: ice+fire=water. Story should change, to leave us without spoliers. Just with pure guessing what can happen in future, and devs should make it surprising to us all with unexpected scenarios but also with point. At least last episode proved that map and events can get better. Main story about dragons have to change and should stay main story. Mistake devs made was using "side story" about charr and their war as main story while swaping main story about Jormag to be side one.

At least if they use war as current main story, make those battles epic ones like in lord of the rings. I don't feel war nor fights serious, it is pure joke how they made it, few of our heros walking here and there and boom minor things happen, few dead and that's it.

Lead us into war, fights, big battleground where 2 big armies hit each other with millions of soldiers, make Tyria great again not small. I wanna see story where nothing surprises me at start but at the end, leaving me to guess what will happen next. At start i wanna get in and feel energy of war, with its all glory and tragedy.

To make big fights possible, simple make many monsters with low health and limit players to hit 5 targets at best, it will make fights epic. Us heros fighting so many people, carrying the victory. Let us feel like real commander not like some side old one who get reports and do nothing but meet dragons , talk with enemies, not even using skills but just watching npcs talking around... Stop it.

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I repeat it here (I already talked about it in the Lore section) but it is not Jormag who wants to attack Primordius in my opinion but it is Primordius who wants to attack Jormag.

Jormag is neither nasty nor nice (I am French and in game Jormag calls himself "he" :) so clearly it is a male for the French ^^). Just that he will do everything for his own interest. We can believe that he really wants to preserve Tyria because he knows that if another dragon dies, Tyria will explode.

However Jormag knows that Primordius seems to intend to eat him and that's why Jormag tries to convince the Dragon Slayer (us, our character ^^) and that he takes advantage of the civil war he pushed to make in Bangar to create an even bigger army to defend himself against Primordius (who by the way must be about to wake up too (cf https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1302521/#Comment_1302521 to know why he would be about to wake up)).

Jormag doesn't want to die and he knows that he can't do anything against Primordius without destroying Tyria (and killing himself).

That's how I see it (it's not a truth ^^)

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The thing is that ANet has always been very clear with what is going to happen.With the killing of Aurene, many of us were surprised. But if you repeat the story there were hints all over the place.I'm not saying my idea is the right one, but I wouldn't be surprised.A good story needs a good plot twist, a hard one that you feel in the core of your body. Like they did in LS4. (well done)(apart from the instant resurrection)

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As far as the threat on the horizon, I honestly think Jormag is going to create the threat or lure it to Tyria from the mists just in an effort to force us to ask for an alliance without realizing that Jormag is the reason the threat exists.

Perhaps not. I don't really get the whole Primordus thing though. Sure, Primordus is a weakness, but we've already had Aesgir and Braham's bow with the enchanted scroll essentially show that Jormag can have OTHER weaknesses. Focusing solely on eliminating Primordus seems a little narrow minded. Especially if we ever decide to turn on them. Who is to say Jormag doesn't instigate Primordus to begin with? I'm also just wondering why now? I guess because Aurene didn't exist in the countless millennia prior to now so they didn't really see any other option.

I don't think Jormag will be a straight up "good" guy as it's done some pretty devious and malicious things already, but it may be the lesser of two evils for the saga, whether that evil was Jormag's doing, Primordus, or something else entirely.

I'm also wondering how Jormag would be privy to the knowledge of this "threat on the horizon" when Aurene, a prophetic dragon by nature that is just existing between multiple planes right now hasn't been like, "Yo, there's some bad shit coming." Why would Jormag know and not Aurene? There's just something off about it all.

I guess the only thing that makes sense would be Jormag realizing it's time for another elder dragon to become active because it's lived through so many cycles it knows when it's time for another one to start. But you'd think Aurene would be able to sense this somehow now that she's ascended as well.

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What interests me is how symbolic Jormag is of autism. I say this as a person who's on the more extreme end of the spectrum. It feels raw.

In the past, people believed that autistic people lacked empathy simply because ours didn't work in the same way and wasn't exercised in the same way as normal people. Our inability to convey it in a way they understand makes them distrust us. — JormagIt's actually been found that autistic people are highly empathetic, many of us are highly sensive persons who feel pain when others suffer. We aren't too proud to beg to help others if we feel they need it. — Jormag applies here.Autistic people have been commonly mixed up with sociopaths because normal people read anything unfamiliar as some kind of plot to undermine them. — Jormag again.Normal people only pay attention to body language as an aspect of communication, often ignoring tone. Autistic people are very sensitive to tone and we can't stand insincerity. An autistic person will endeavour to be sincere. — This applies too. Jormag always sounds incredibly sincere and it's too convincing to be bad voice acting.

Look at what Jormag did with Bangar, it was an act of empathy. It feels like a very autistic thing to understandt hat a voice can be a weapon, that words can kill, and that charisma so easily allows normal people to be puppeteered. Yes, Jormag feels Machiavellian but that isn't evil in any way, throughout history there are examples of kind, good Machiavellian minds. Jormag, however, isn't manipulative. In fact, they can't even be dishonest. One of the writers has said this a number of times on Twitter, that Jormag is always honest and that their power is persuasaion.

It's important to understand what persuasion actually is. It's rooted in reason. I've seen the writers get antsy when people imply that Jormag has mind control or manipulation, neither is true. Their power is more like a strong, logical argument.

Anyway, on the topic of Bangar: How else could he have been dealt with? Had he simply been let go, he would've used his power of charisma to sway the charr into murdering one another again. How would you stop that? Would you take his freedom? His health? His life? Jormag took his voice, which is an act of compassion. There's the chance that Bangar can be rehabilitated, shown the error of his ways and taught how faceless fear drove him to bigotry.

I want to believe that Jormag is on the up and up.

It would be disappointing if they weren't. It would just be another example of a shady, evil autistic character otherwise. There's just so much about Jormag that's... so autistic. The way they interact, they way they talk, how they tend to prefer isolation, and how fed up they are with manipulation (see: Bangar). All I get from Jormag is that they're a highly sensitive autistic person who happens to be a dragon with persuasion powers. That's a lot of things that could be easily misunderstood.

I'm open to being wrong and being disappointed (again) but I hope that the purpose of this story is to teach the folly of biases, of early judgement, and of judging a book by its cover without any in-depth information.

There are a few clues I found interesting and compelling. It's revealed that Jora didn't kill Svanir because he attacked her, but rather because he "looked like a twisted mockery." Similarly, we learn that the kodan have begun to murder people out of xenophobic paranoia. Oh, you sound a bit appreciative of the therapy dragon? Your voice isn't your own!

That's how I tend to see Jormag too. They're... so against suffering.

If you at all have any sense of tone, any at all, have a listen to the trailer.

The way they say suffering is so telling. I caught this immediately because I'm sensitive to tone. I know that some might think it's angry or intimidating because they shifted to Jormag's more draconic voice. It isn't. Listen to the tone beyond that. It's... frustration, desperation. Jormag sees the torment destroying Tyria, pulling it apart with war and pain. The writers have told us that Jormag truly loves Tyria, so this would tear them up inside.

Now have a listen to this. You will need good hearing for it, though. I apologise for that.

It's Jormag. They sound so sincere, the way they beg is... It's raw. I can't describe it any other way.

Either ArenaNet is going to give me us a kind yet misunderstood therapy dragon that's autistic as heck, or they're going to just be another autistic villain trope. I don't know about you, but I'm tired of that trope. I'm also tired of the hurr hurr smash thing stories that Guild Wars 2 has told prior. I don't know that the community has enough toxic masculinity for that to be a good sell.

What if the story was actually about confronting the abstract concept of suffering in Tyria (the torment) though? That'd be different. A cancerous force that's causing cycles of pain and death. That would be a compelling story to me.

(It's only fair that I admit my own biases as well. I have a vested interest in therapy and hypnotherapy, and I have a deep love for dragons. So seeing an autistic dragon who's interested in easing pain and suffering... That would be a very cathartic, meaningful experience for me. It's just as easy that Jormag could be an evil autist trope though who's just going to die at the end and I'll end up very depressed.)

(Edited for clarity.)

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