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@Yggranya.5201 said:

@Yggranya.5201 said:I just repeat what i have seen, nothing more, nothing less.

So youre basically a parrot that doesnt even understand what it's saying. Great...What you're representing here are highly subjective and individual experiences/opinions and in no way reliable sources. You should use websites like gw2efficiency etc. to get a deeper understanding of wealth distribution across the gw2 community and that raiders have the tendency to be richer and thus are less reliant on rewards.(though they
did
get this rich by playing lucrative content of course^^)

Nah, i just tell you only what i have seen. It's true it is nothing but personal experience (which should be obvious, i mean come on...) but since it's true for every MMO i have played, can't really tell you anything else. Anytime anyone anywhere start talking about difficulty, sooner rather than later the people who say they "enjoy" difficulty come to tell everyone how it should give more stuff, every time. They, of course, also say they enjoy it but as soon as someone tells them "isn't it supposed to be fun for you, why more stuff?" the raiders especially knock them down with the might of a thousand suns.

Even as someone who after having played for 8+ years doesn't really care much about rewards anymore and just enjoys Raiding for the gameplay and social aspect still have to say I do find it silly that brain afk auto attacking in some open world zerg gives up to 300%+ of the rewards per hour, without cap, than the most difficult organised group content in the game does once per week.Just in terms of principle that doesn't make sense, just like if someone studied law or medicine mainly just because they enjoy it, they probably expect to earn more than if they had just gone directly into menial labor, so someone gearing and preparing for and learning Raids just for the fun of it might still expect rewards at least in parity to what they would get from holding down one in a zerg.It's logical that much greater effort should be more rewarding.

Imo better rewards for Raids would be nice as carrot for more people to get into it, to then stay for the gameplay and community they might enjoy and form. They are not so much a personal concern though.

I get that Anet really, really wants people to play their LW stuff, but they are stacking the deck a bit much in terms of to what content they lure players to with their loot carrots.

Complaining about rewards doesn't mean that's all or even mainly what people play for though.

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@Asum.4960 said:

@Yggranya.5201 said:I just repeat what i have seen, nothing more, nothing less.

So youre basically a parrot that doesnt even understand what it's saying. Great...What you're representing here are highly subjective and individual experiences/opinions and in no way reliable sources. You should use websites like gw2efficiency etc. to get a deeper understanding of wealth distribution across the gw2 community and that raiders have the tendency to be richer and thus are less reliant on rewards.(though they
did
get this rich by playing lucrative content of course^^)

Nah, i just tell you only what i have seen. It's true it is nothing but personal experience (which should be obvious, i mean come on...) but since it's true for every MMO i have played, can't really tell you anything else. Anytime anyone anywhere start talking about difficulty, sooner rather than later the people who say they "enjoy" difficulty come to tell everyone how it should give more stuff, every time. They, of course, also say they enjoy it but as soon as someone tells them "isn't it supposed to be fun for you, why more stuff?" the raiders especially knock them down with the might of a thousand suns.

Even as someone who after having played for 8+ years doesn't really care much about rewards anymore and just enjoys Raiding for the gameplay and social aspect still have to say I do find it silly that brain afk auto attacking in some open world zerg gives up to 300%+ of the rewards per hour, without cap, than the most difficult organised group content in the game does once per week.Just in terms of principle that doesn't make sense, just like if someone studied law or medicine mainly just because they enjoy it, they probably expect to earn more than if they had just gone directly into menial labor, so someone gearing and preparing for and learning Raids just for the fun of it might still expect rewards at least in parity to what they would get from holding down one in a zerg.It's logical that much greater effort should be more rewarding.

Imo better rewards for Raids would be nice as carrot for more people to get into it, to then stay for the gameplay and community they might enjoy and form. They are not so much a personal concern though.

I get that Anet really, really wants people to play their LW stuff, but they are stacking the deck a bit much in terms of to what content they lure players to with their loot carrots.

Complaining about rewards doesn't mean that's all or even mainly what people play for though.

Ahh, the good ol' excuses. Funny how they, like everything else are always the same.

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@Yggranya.5201 said:

@Yggranya.5201 said:I just repeat what i have seen, nothing more, nothing less.

So youre basically a parrot that doesnt even understand what it's saying. Great...What you're representing here are highly subjective and individual experiences/opinions and in no way reliable sources. You should use websites like gw2efficiency etc. to get a deeper understanding of wealth distribution across the gw2 community and that raiders have the tendency to be richer and thus are less reliant on rewards.(though they
did
get this rich by playing lucrative content of course^^)

Nah, i just tell you only what i have seen. It's true it is nothing but personal experience (which should be obvious, i mean come on...) but since it's true for every MMO i have played, can't really tell you anything else. Anytime anyone anywhere start talking about difficulty, sooner rather than later the people who say they "enjoy" difficulty come to tell everyone how it should give more stuff, every time. They, of course, also say they enjoy it but as soon as someone tells them "isn't it supposed to be fun for you, why more stuff?" the raiders especially knock them down with the might of a thousand suns.

Even as someone who after having played for 8+ years doesn't really care much about rewards anymore and just enjoys Raiding for the gameplay and social aspect still have to say I do find it silly that brain afk auto attacking in some open world zerg gives up to 300%+ of the rewards per hour, without cap, than the most difficult organised group content in the game does once per week.Just in terms of principle that doesn't make sense, just like if someone studied law or medicine mainly just because they enjoy it, they probably expect to earn more than if they had just gone directly into menial labor, so someone gearing and preparing for and learning Raids just for the fun of it might still expect rewards at least in parity to what they would get from holding down one in a zerg.It's logical that much greater effort should be more rewarding.

Imo better rewards for Raids would be nice as carrot for more people to get into it, to then stay for the gameplay and community they might enjoy and form. They are not so much a personal concern though.

I get that Anet really, really wants people to play their LW stuff, but they are stacking the deck a bit much in terms of to what content they lure players to with their loot carrots.

Complaining about rewards doesn't mean that's all or even mainly what people play for though.

Ahh, the good ol' excuses. Funny how they, like everything else are always the same.

So basically you just made a decision based on your biases as to what to think and are just disregarding what everybody says to the contrary as "excuses" so you can maintain your faulty and negative view of them, without actually engaging in conversation and providing counter arguments and just picking up on whatever bit, even if only out of context, confirms your bias. Gotha, don't need to bother further then.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Arcaniaxs.4519" said:Seriously is it this hard for u ppl to go raiding and find a training squad to teach you how to kill a boss? And then with Your LIs go find a strikeApparently, yes. If you haven't noticed, that is even the primary reason behind why Strikes were even created. If raids were more popular,
they
would be the content to be developed, and Devs would not feel the need to create "steping stones" to them. They definitely did not intend for raids to be stepping stones to strikes.

So, something obviously went wrong. That part at least seems undeniable to me, even if we all are not in agreement on the precise details of that "something".

Agree with Arca, you forgot there are people who enjoy WvW and PvP more than Raiding for endgame content. Strike was meant to be like casual things I think for PvE to get some money or drop.

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@Yggranya.5201 said:

@"Arcaniaxs.4519" said:Strikes have better loot and they are dailyThis is the problem, IMO. If strikes are to be the steps leading to raiding, then strikes shouldn't have better loot. What's the incentive to raid, then?

I thought it was the "challenge"? or has that always been a lie?

LIke maybe the raidcommunity isn't a monolith who have different reasons/motivations to raid.Who would have thought that

So, it's is the rewards again, right? That much is obvious, of course. When you see it once, you know it's true everywhere and i have seen the same in every game. Not every individual, of course but mostly, yes.

I play only raids. I dont use gold for anything. I have my legendary armor already. Nothing to gain from raids exept the fun.I dont play anything else here because it is not fun for me. Maybe exept strikes sometime.

If all raiders are thete for rewards. They learn the builds and get correct gear. Then why dont they relise that farming silverwastes while watching a movie provide more value?

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@Yggranya.5201 said:

@Yggranya.5201 said:I just repeat what i have seen, nothing more, nothing less.

So youre basically a parrot that doesnt even understand what it's saying. Great...What you're representing here are highly subjective and individual experiences/opinions and in no way reliable sources. You should use websites like gw2efficiency etc. to get a deeper understanding of wealth distribution across the gw2 community and that raiders have the tendency to be richer and thus are less reliant on rewards.(though they
did
get this rich by playing lucrative content of course^^)

Nah, i just tell you only what i have seen. It's true it is nothing but personal experience (which should be obvious, i mean come on...) but since it's true for every MMO i have played, can't really tell you anything else. Anytime anyone anywhere start talking about difficulty, sooner rather than later the people who say they "enjoy" difficulty come to tell everyone how it should give more stuff, every time. They, of course, also say they enjoy it but as soon as someone tells them "isn't it supposed to be fun for you, why more stuff?" the raiders especially knock them down with the might of a thousand suns.

Even as someone who after having played for 8+ years doesn't really care much about rewards anymore and just enjoys Raiding for the gameplay and social aspect still have to say I do find it silly that brain afk auto attacking in some open world zerg gives up to 300%+ of the rewards per hour, without cap, than the most difficult organised group content in the game does once per week.Just in terms of principle that doesn't make sense, just like if someone studied law or medicine mainly just because they enjoy it, they probably expect to earn more than if they had just gone directly into menial labor, so someone gearing and preparing for and learning Raids just for the fun of it might still expect rewards at least in parity to what they would get from holding down one in a zerg.It's logical that much greater effort should be more rewarding.

Imo better rewards for Raids would be nice as carrot for more people to get into it, to then stay for the gameplay and community they might enjoy and form. They are not so much a personal concern though.

I get that Anet really, really wants people to play their LW stuff, but they are stacking the deck a bit much in terms of to what content they lure players to with their loot carrots.

Complaining about rewards doesn't mean that's all or even mainly what people play for though.

Ahh, the good ol' excuses. Funny how they, like everything else are always the same.

Just to react quickly to this, even though the whole discussion concerning why people are playing raids is completly irrelevant to the thread, most people I know and raid with some times in the month are clearing all the wings around thrice a week, and most of them aren't doing it on alts, which means they basically get 6 unid gear for clearing the boss. Most raiders are raiding for fun, to learn new roles/proffessions/specs, or to try new strats or more hardcore kills. Honestly, rewards are just a kind of nice bonus that are around aswell.Overall there are many issues in the game that deserves fixing before "rewards" are fixed. Would have to study the number of gold you get from each content to even know if it requires balancing.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi Giotto ,

I disagree that all content should be open world. You are correct in that hard instances content does present a skill gap. However , the skill gap between a benchmark raid berserker and a gold farm warrior has always existed even before raids. Asking for kill proof or li in strikes just a visible way that the player skill gap manifests in the game.

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@Giotto.2607 said:I think all those fracs and raids should be mini dungeons, instance content should not be include in GW2. It causing too many skill balance issues in this game and less people playing them. GW2 should not be an instance content game.

So u are basically saying everyone should go for gold farming and pvp content and auto attacking world bosses xDBtw story is also a instance content part so watch your words mate:)))

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Stop saying this.

I LFG for strikes EVERY single day and I have NEVER, EVER been asked to reveal KI ever. And one hundred percent of the time I don't even host my own squad, I'm usually the one playing the Quickness Bran Power Support or Scourge in the group.

This excessive whining needs to stop. I already lost raids, don't ruin strikes as well because YOU yourself keep getting into the wrong groups. The bad ones that can EASILY be ignored. That's how content gets ignored and gets cut and we go back to the boring run around open world crap again.

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@Yggranya.5201 said:Nah, i just tell you only what i have seen.

seems to me like you only see what you want to see...

Ahh, the good ol' excuses. Funny how they, like everything else are always the same.

ah, there we go.any statement that doesnt agree with your biased opinion is either a lie or an excuse.thats one way to stay inside your personal bubble of bias.

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  • 2 weeks later...

@trixantea.1230 said:Shiverpeaks Pass is way to easy and can be done by any group of players regardless of their skill and IQ while WoJ/Bs can be a bit too difficult for players with average skills.

I think that all strikes should be balanced around the same level of difficulty. If high skilled players find them too easy, it wouldn't hurt to givem a cm mode with higher rewards. Anet managed to implement that very well in fractals and I think that they should do the same thing for strikes.

Pass can actually be done by 3 bearbows

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@"Giotto.2607" said:I think all those fracs and raids should be mini dungeons, instance content should not be include in GW2. It causing too many skill balance issues in this game and less people playing them. GW2 should not be an instance content game.An MMO by it's nature needs to offer a wide breadth of content to it's players in order to attract as many players as possible. This is as true for a juggernaut like WoW as it is for a middle of the road game like GW2 as it is for a smaller game such as DCUO.Catering exclusively to one play style with one type of content limits the game's audience and therefore it's revenue.For an 8 month period last year this game doubled down on the casual open world experience. The result was the lowest revenue in a single quarter this game had ever seen.

GW2's "skill balance issues" isn't what limits it's audience. WoW struggles with the exact same issue.It's unwillingness to adequately accommodate more dedicated players, it's neglect of existing pillars such as raids, PvP and WvW, and the fact that it's visual progression is largely tied to the cash shop are far greater contributors to this game's population limits.

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@Giotto.2607 said:I think all those fracs and raids should be mini dungeons, instance content should not be include in GW2. It causing too many skill balance issues in this game and less people playing them. GW2 should not be an instance content game.

Yep. Instances remove the massively part of the term MMORPG.Nowadays many „MMORPGs“ are nothing more than glorified lobby-dungeon crawlers. Post HoT revenue, when Anet doubled down on raids hurt the game, when they tried to go in a similiar direction.

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Not every part of an mmo needs or should involve the entire map. Dungeon crawls and raids are the the best way to provide fun controlled content. Imagine a map meta where one person touching oils wipes the map. Anet putting effort into raids and pushing out w1-3 in like 6 months was amazing. Burn out at the end game is severe at the moment. What to do after legendary armor and trinkets are complete ? Make an alt account I guess .

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@Raknar.4735 said:Post HoT revenue, when Anet doubled down on raids hurt the game, when they tried to go in a similiar direction.

According to the official information given by NCSoft themselves (the people with the data! Remember they DO have the data!), the reason the revenue after HOT was lower was because the CORE game wasn't good enough to force paid conversions. Nothing to do with Raids. The main problem with revenue in Guild Wars 2 has always been the core game.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Raknar.4735 said:Post HoT revenue, when Anet doubled down on raids hurt the game, when they tried to go in a similiar direction.

According to the official information given by NCSoft themselves (the people with the data! Remember they DO have the data!), the reason the revenue after HOT was lower was because the CORE game wasn't good enough to force paid conversions. Nothing to do with Raids. The main problem with revenue in Guild Wars 2 has always been the core game.

Guess raids weren‘t also good enough to force paid conversions then, lol.No wonder the CORE game wasn‘t good enough when they tried to cater to the „everything must be hard“ mentality, which drove plenty of people away from HoT. They even had to nerf HoT, but revenue never recovered until PoF ;)

But yeah, you‘re probably right about raids not being responsible for low revenue, the same way they aren‘t responsible for high revenue.

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@Raknar.4735 said:

@Raknar.4735 said:Post HoT revenue, when Anet doubled down on raids hurt the game, when they tried to go in a similiar direction.

According to the official information given by NCSoft themselves (the people with the data! Remember they DO have the data!), the reason the revenue after HOT was lower was because the CORE game wasn't good enough to force paid conversions. Nothing to do with Raids. The main problem with revenue in Guild Wars 2 has always been the core game.

Guess raids weren‘t also good enough to force paid conversions then, lol.No wonder the CORE game wasn‘t good enough when they tried to cater to the „everything must be hard“ mentality, which drove plenty of people away from HoT. They even had to nerf HoT, but revenue never recovered until PoF ;)

No, it's the core game that needs to be good enough to force conversions, not Raids. If players play the core game, get bored, and leave after a couple hours, Raids can't do anything about it. It's up to the game up to the expansion to force conversions, not the job of an expansion.

As for POF, HOT was still selling when POF was released, so they were selling two expansions at the time, with HOT still being more expensive than POF. Guess what happened when HOT was bundled free with purchase of POF? Revenue tanked to the nether regions, meaning HOT was STILL selling very well before they bundled it with POF.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Raknar.4735 said:Post HoT revenue, when Anet doubled down on raids hurt the game, when they tried to go in a similiar direction.

According to the official information given by NCSoft themselves (the people with the data! Remember they DO have the data!), the reason the revenue after HOT was lower was because the CORE game wasn't good enough to force paid conversions. Nothing to do with Raids. The main problem with revenue in Guild Wars 2 has always been the core game.

Guess raids weren‘t also good enough to force paid conversions then, lol.No wonder the CORE game wasn‘t good enough when they tried to cater to the „everything must be hard“ mentality, which drove plenty of people away from HoT. They even had to nerf HoT, but revenue never recovered until PoF ;)

No, it's the core game that needs to be good enough to force conversions, not Raids. If players play the core game, get bored, and leave after a couple hours, Raids can't do anything about it. It's up to the game up to the expansion to force conversions, not the job of an expansion.

As for POF, HOT was still selling when POF was released, so they were selling two expansions at the time, with HOT still being more expensive than POF. Guess what happened when HOT was bundled free with purchase of POF? Revenue tanked to the nether regions, meaning HOT was STILL selling very well before they bundled it with POF.

Yeah, you‘re right. Raids don‘t drive revenue. They most likely barely bring in anything, hence why Anet doesn‘t create more of them.

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@Raknar.4735 said:

@Raknar.4735 said:Post HoT revenue, when Anet doubled down on raids hurt the game, when they tried to go in a similiar direction.

According to the official information given by NCSoft themselves (the people with the data! Remember they DO have the data!), the reason the revenue after HOT was lower was because the CORE game wasn't good enough to force paid conversions. Nothing to do with Raids. The main problem with revenue in Guild Wars 2 has always been the core game.

Guess raids weren‘t also good enough to force paid conversions then, lol.No wonder the CORE game wasn‘t good enough when they tried to cater to the „everything must be hard“ mentality, which drove plenty of people away from HoT. They even had to nerf HoT, but revenue never recovered until PoF ;)

No, it's the core game that needs to be good enough to force conversions, not Raids. If players play the core game, get bored, and leave after a couple hours, Raids can't do anything about it. It's up to the game up to the expansion to force conversions, not the job of an expansion.

As for POF, HOT was still selling when POF was released, so they were selling two expansions at the time, with HOT still being more expensive than POF. Guess what happened when HOT was bundled free with purchase of POF? Revenue tanked to the nether regions, meaning HOT was STILL selling very well before they bundled it with POF.

Yeah, you‘re right. Raids don‘t drive revenue. They most likely barely bring in anything, hence why Anet doesn‘t create more of them.

The core game is what doesn't drive revenue as it's not good enough to force conversions. And since Raids depend on the core game to be good first, you can see the problem. Only players that get past the core game and say "this game is good, I'll buy the expansion" are even exposed to Raids. Maybe if the core game was better and didn't drive players away after the first few hours, the expansions would sell better and Raids would be more popular. But the core game was a tough wall to climb for almost 70% of the game's accounts (official data, they have less Achievement Points than a player that finished the Core game would have), that's a massive loss of player accounts that for some reason you attribute to Raids. You do you I guess even though you are factually wrong.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Raknar.4735 said:Post HoT revenue, when Anet doubled down on raids hurt the game, when they tried to go in a similiar direction.

According to the official information given by NCSoft themselves (the people with the data! Remember they DO have the data!), the reason the revenue after HOT was lower was because the CORE game wasn't good enough to force paid conversions. Nothing to do with Raids. The main problem with revenue in Guild Wars 2 has always been the core game.

Guess raids weren‘t also good enough to force paid conversions then, lol.No wonder the CORE game wasn‘t good enough when they tried to cater to the „everything must be hard“ mentality, which drove plenty of people away from HoT. They even had to nerf HoT, but revenue never recovered until PoF ;)

No, it's the core game that needs to be good enough to force conversions, not Raids. If players play the core game, get bored, and leave after a couple hours, Raids can't do anything about it. It's up to the game up to the expansion to force conversions, not the job of an expansion.

As for POF, HOT was still selling when POF was released, so they were selling two expansions at the time, with HOT still being more expensive than POF. Guess what happened when HOT was bundled free with purchase of POF? Revenue tanked to the nether regions, meaning HOT was STILL selling very well before they bundled it with POF.

Yeah, you‘re right. Raids don‘t drive revenue. They most likely barely bring in anything, hence why Anet doesn‘t create more of them.

The core game is what doesn't drive revenue as it's not good enough to force conversions. And since Raids depend on the core game to be good first, you can see the problem. Only players that get past the core game and say "this game is good, I'll buy the expansion" are even exposed to Raids. Maybe if the core game was better and didn't drive players away after the first few hours, the expansions would sell better and Raids would be more popular. But the core game was a tough wall to climb for almost 70% of the game's accounts (official data, they have less Achievement Points than a player that finished the Core game would have), that's a massive loss of player accounts that for some reason you attribute to Raids. You do you I guess even though you are factually wrong.

Ah yes, that‘s why revenue dropped after HoT and not during the drought before HoT.And Core being bad is the reason they nerfed HoT difficutly LUL.But doesn‘t matter, you can live in your own little echo chamber, probably using GW2 efficiency as your „official“ data, a site most people don‘t use, lol. But you‘re free to ignore the fact that raids don‘t get developed because they aren‘t worth it for Anet. Just blame everything else because raids can‘t pull their weight.

Using your logic CORE is at fault for the low IBS revenue, „players just didn‘t finish core“ hehe. Not having an expansion in sight was totally not the reason for low revenue /s

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@Raknar.4735 said:

@Raknar.4735 said:Post HoT revenue, when Anet doubled down on raids hurt the game, when they tried to go in a similiar direction.

According to the official information given by NCSoft themselves (the people with the data! Remember they DO have the data!), the reason the revenue after HOT was lower was because the CORE game wasn't good enough to force paid conversions. Nothing to do with Raids. The main problem with revenue in Guild Wars 2 has always been the core game.

Guess raids weren‘t also good enough to force paid conversions then, lol.No wonder the CORE game wasn‘t good enough when they tried to cater to the „everything must be hard“ mentality, which drove plenty of people away from HoT. They even had to nerf HoT, but revenue never recovered until PoF ;)

No, it's the core game that needs to be good enough to force conversions, not Raids. If players play the core game, get bored, and leave after a couple hours, Raids can't do anything about it. It's up to the game up to the expansion to force conversions, not the job of an expansion.

As for POF, HOT was still selling when POF was released, so they were selling two expansions at the time, with HOT still being more expensive than POF. Guess what happened when HOT was bundled free with purchase of POF? Revenue tanked to the nether regions, meaning HOT was STILL selling very well before they bundled it with POF.

Yeah, you‘re right. Raids don‘t drive revenue. They most likely barely bring in anything, hence why Anet doesn‘t create more of them.

The core game is what doesn't drive revenue as it's not good enough to force conversions. And since Raids depend on the core game to be good first, you can see the problem. Only players that get past the core game and say "this game is good, I'll buy the expansion" are even exposed to Raids. Maybe if the core game was better and didn't drive players away after the first few hours, the expansions would sell better and Raids would be more popular. But the core game was a tough wall to climb for almost 70% of the game's accounts (official data, they have less Achievement Points than a player that finished the Core game would have), that's a massive loss of player accounts that for some reason you attribute to Raids. You do you I guess even though you are factually wrong.

Ah yes, that‘s why revenue dropped after HoT and not during the drought before HoT.

During the drought before HOT players needed to buy the game to try it. After it went free to play they didn't anymore, it was available to everyone for free.

And Core being bad is the reason they nerfed HoT difficutly LUL.

Difficulty has nothing to do with anything here. Core being bad doesn't have anything to do with difficulty either I'm not sure where that came from.

But doesn‘t matter, you can live in your own little echo chamber, probably using GW2 efficiency as your „official“ data, a site most people don‘t use, lol.

I use the leaderboards.guildwars2.com which is as official as it can get.

But you‘re free to ignore the fact that raids don‘t get developed because they aren‘t worth it for Anet. Just blame everything else because raids can‘t pull their weight.

As I already said, Raids need paid customers to work, if the core/free game isn't converting enough players than naturally Raids won't have enough players to work with.

Using you logic CORE is at fault for the low IBS revenue, „players just didn‘t finish core“ hehe. Not having an expansion in sight was totally not the reason for low revenue /s

Core is not at fault for IBS revenue, but bundling HOT with the purchase of POF is. And the direction they went with IBS neglecting almost all parts of their game for months. Of course not having an expansion in sight also contributed. (We were talking about the HOT drop, that's where the "players didn't finish core" arguments goes to)

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