Ebonhawke Treaty Following Icebrood Saga

[devanea.2041]

From a lore perspective, it would be really nice if at the end of Icebrood Saga, whatever may happen and where it leaves the charr we get some updated info on ratification of the treaty. Most of us know that in Dragonfall it's mentions 'treaty' specifically. Which is the first time in the story it's ever referred to as a treaty. We don't really have any knowledge of what those details entail. We don't know what it means for humanity or where exactly it leaves Ebonhawke. With it being a treaty and Bangar's signature on the treaty, where does that leave it in the current state of the story? The conflict between charr and humans is a big piece of the history of both races and it's frustrating at the neglect to it's details. It will need be ratified following any one taking the position of Khan-Ur, flame legion truly joining the fold, Bangar's actions etc.

I just hope at the end of Icebrood Saga that there is a NPC that appears in Ebonhawke (like the norn who hears the whispers after completing War Eternal) that talks about the treaty. It doesn't have to be in the story itself by any means (though that would be better) but some sort of context to it where it stands. As a lore junkie I'm just hoping for some context following the conclusion of the current story.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@"devanea.2041" said:From a lore perspective, it would be really nice if at the end of Icebrood Saga, whatever may happen and where it leaves the charr we get some updated info on ratification of the treaty.We already got some updated info (albeit one-liners) on the treaty in the prologue and Episode 4, and from this NPC added for that Design-a-Weapon collection, all of which confirmed it got signed and ratified, and Smodur's confident it will continue to go smoothly despite Bangar's actions. It's been signed and ratified at some point while we were off in the Maguuma and/or Elona. Most likely it was signed before The Head of the Snake given the presence of charr assisting the Siege of Divinity's Reach.

All we lack is what the treaty entails - what the charr and humans had to give up or gained from it aside from peace.

Most of us know that in Dragonfall it's mentions 'treaty' specifically. Which is the first time in the story it's ever referred to as a treaty.It's actually called a treaty in the personal story, but that it was still being in negotiations - that at that point all there was, was a cease-fire agreement and negotiations beginning.

[Hypnowulf.7403]

I think they've just decided that it's time for there to be no more animosity between the allied races, which includes the humans and the charr.

I mean, there are still those who believe the charr to be evil—even despite having interacted with the Olmakhan, whose existence stands in direct opposition to that incorrect assumption—and there are still those who believe that the ugliness of that war should be revisited. This all sounds very sociopathic to me and I think the writers are on the same wavelength. Two undeniable truths: kindness begets kindness, and hatred begets hatred. That the humans are standing with the allied charr in No Quarter speaks volumes. It's time for old hatreds to rest.

I feel that they're going to do something very interesting with Bangar. If they were to have the player kill him, or even have anyone else kill him, this would just further the agitations between races. It would also inspire the weird people who tend to want to bring ethnic supremacist values into a video game to become louder and prouder, which absolutely isn't in the best interest of ArenaNet and they know that. Bangar's going to have a heel-face turn. Whether it'll be due to him getting some dragon-imbued therapy or via some other means, he's going to realise that his hatred is very foolish. At the end of this somewhat sordid tale, Bangar will come out in support of the alliance and his human allies.

He will express regret for his actions and offer himself to imprisonment so that he can be rehabilitated to deal with whatever underlying issues he has that drove his bigotry in the first place. The message, now more than ever, needs to be that bigotry serves no one. If ArenaNet wishes to position themselves as a truly progressive developer, as I believe that is their aim, then this is the logical path to follow. This narrative would alienate the... less desirable element of our community. Which isn't at all a bad thing.

This is why the treaty has been ratified and the story they're telling is that not even this will shake the treaty. Indeed, if anything, this will strengthen it.

[Loesh.4697]

@Hypnowulf.7403 said:I think they've just decided that it's time for there to be no more animosity between the allied races, which includes the humans and the charr.

I mean, there are still those who believe the charr to be evil—even despite having interacted with the Olmakhan, whose existence stands in direct opposition to that incorrect assumption—and there are still those who believe that the ugliness of that war should be revisited. This all sounds very sociopathic to me and I think the writers are on the same wavelength. Two undeniable truths: kindness begets kindness, and hatred begets hatred. That the humans are standing with the allied charr in No Quarter speaks volumes. It's time for old hatreds to rest.

I feel that they're going to do something very interesting with Bangar. If they were to have the player kill him, or even have anyone else kill him, this would just further the agitations between races. It would also inspire the weird people who tend to want to bring ethnic supremacist values into a video game to become louder and prouder, which absolutely isn't in the best interest of ArenaNet and they know that. Bangar's going to have a heel-face turn. Whether it'll be due to him getting some dragon-imbued therapy or via some other means, he's going to realise that his hatred is very foolish. At the end of this somewhat sordid tale, Bangar will come out in support of the alliance and his human allies.

He will express regret for his actions and offer himself to imprisonment so that he can be rehabilitated to deal with whatever underlying issues he has that drove his bigotry in the first place. The message, now more than ever, needs to be that bigotry serves no one. If ArenaNet wishes to position themselves as a truly progressive developer, as I believe that is their aim, then this is the logical path to follow. This narrative would alienate the... less desirable element of our community. Which isn't at all a bad thing.

This is why the treaty has been ratified and the story they're telling is that not even this will shake the treaty. Indeed, if anything, this will strengthen it.

Is that why the United Legion is actively saying Bangar is right in places and still just as racist towards humans? Nothing is black and white, that includes the animosity between humanity and the Charr. While I don't think the Charr themselves are evil, the Legions as an organization definitely are destructive to the environment around them and they as a people need to change to keep up with the world. Things like the Fahrars have been demonstrated to be cruel and unusual to parents and children alike, while the hyper nationalistic society they have built has allowed Bangar to build a Fascist uprising inside their ranks.

I doubt Ruinbringer would get a redemption unless we're going down the Steven Universe road of forgiving genocidal lunatics. He's gone too deep now, killing entire villages of people and perverting the youth of entire legions to serve his twisted ends? Perhaps he see's the error of his ways,but I suspect it would either end with death or banishment.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

The current formation of Charr society is no longer fueling their technological advancement like it once did.They've gained about all they can from war, and further development into a post-industrial era (like happened in our world) needs an era of peace.

I believe that despite everything, the Iron Legion would persue peace to further the path they've been on for many years, but Blood and Ash are wildcards. Unlike Iron they don't persue technology as fiercly and need other reasons to exist, especially Blood who live only for fighting. But if even the Flame Legion can be brought to their senses, maybe Blood can too if Bangar is out of the picture.

In order for peace to continue the treaty must stay, and progress tends to win out over tradition, eventually.

The outcome of this is extremely important to Tyria, because if we can't truly stop the Elder Dragon cycle and only control it somewhat, periods of living without magic will always exist and the Asuran way of advancement (magitech) isn't sustainable.

[draxynnic.3719]

The Charr certainly aren't inherently evil, but their society is definitely militaristic. The Olmakhan are essentially the exception that proves the rule there - they are how they are because they LEFT charr society.

What we've been seeing, though, is that the charr are on the cusp of a change. As @Hannelore.8153 pointed out, the Iron Legion is reaching a point where it could probably benefit from shifting its industries away from a war economy. I suspect Ash also has aims of forming a trading empire as well - Malice was probably the first Imperator to support the idea of peace with humans. Bangar is the reactionary.

Personally, I don't think we'll see a redemption for Bangar. He's gone too far off the deep end, and whether it makes sense for the setting or not, the last episode did establish that the charr have a concept of war crimes. It's possible that like Ferengi deals, this is a 'but only among charr' thing, but Bangar has at this point been implicated in ethnic cleansing of the Drizzlewood Coast and murdering a helpless prisoner, and that's just what we know about.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

@draxynnic.3719 said:Personally, I don't think we'll see a redemption for Bangar. He's gone too far off the deep end, and whether it makes sense for the setting or not, the last episode did establish that the charr have a concept of war crimes. It's possible that like Ferengi deals, this is a 'but only among charr' thing, but Bangar has at this point been implicated in ethnic cleansing of the Drizzlewood Coast and murdering a helpless prisoner, and that's just what we know about.Honestly, I could easily see him dying next episode. His whole narrative purpose will have likely been filled at that point.-He will likely wake Jormag at the end of next episode, which is the thing hes been working toward this whole time.-He has already killed Almorra, a major military leader, and leader of one of the three orders that form that Pact.-He has caused a civil war among the Charr, which has fractured the largest, and most organized, military force on Tyria.-Hes given Jormag a sizeable new force via the Frost Legion.

Assuming he isn't already, I could see Bangar getting corrupted into some powerful Icebrood/Frost Legion Champion after he awakens Jormag, then the player has to fight and kill him as the final boss fight of next episode, and then we get the bow back from his after this. If he does make it out of next episode alive, then the above will happen as some penultimate barrier before fighting Jormag itself in the last episode... though still think we will get the bow back next episode.

[Jagblade.4627]

The subject of the Ebonhawke Treaty and the gritty politics of the the Human - Charr Conflict has been a source of fascination for me since the game launched. Personally, I'd love to see this boil over into a new war between Bangar's group and Kryta and with Ebonhawke and the last Ascalonians thrown into the mix as well, maybe we'll actually get some indepth look at the Ascalonian Separatists beyond them just being nameless bandit NPCs. I love this stuff and would love a break from "yet another elder dragon threatens the world" story beats that we've been doing since the game launched in 2012 (Scarlet was a great reprieve from that.) Let's dive more into the governments, politics, and races of the land. Let's actually live in the world we inhabit for a while instead of playing fantasy hero. That's just me though.

Have to say as well, IC my human main is from Ebonhawke and is someone who for a time fought for the Ascalonian Separatists, is very leery of Charr, etc. Though I absolutely doubt it would ever happen I'd love the option to side with a less terroristic sect of the separatists in future storylines and see where that takes us.

[Eekasqueak.7850]

Don't really want another human centric storyline personally.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Eekasqueak.7850 said:Don't really want another human centric storyline personally.

Would it be human centric, if it's about the inter-relations of charr and humans?

Would be more human-and-charr centric, I'd think.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

@"Jagblade.4627" said:The subject of the Ebonhawke Treaty and the gritty politics of the the Human - Charr Conflict has been a source of fascination for me since the game launched. Personally, I'd love to see this boil over into a new war between Bangar's group and Kryta and with Ebonhawke and the last Ascalonians thrown into the mix as well, maybe we'll actually get some indepth look at the Ascalonian Separatists beyond them just being nameless bandit NPCs. I love this stuff and would love a break from "yet another elder dragon threatens the world" story beats that we've been doing since the game launched in 2012 (Scarlet was a great reprieve from that.) Let's dive more into the governments, politics, and races of the land. Let's actually live in the world we inhabit for a while instead of playing fantasy hero. That's just me though.

Have to say as well, IC my human main is from Ebonhawke and is someone who for a time fought for the Ascalonian Separatists, is very leery of Charr, etc. Though I absolutely doubt it would ever happen I'd love the option to side with a less terroristic sect of the separatists in future storylines and see where that takes us.We pretty much got that with the Caudecus meta-narrative, where it was revealed he was behind pretty much everything in all the human origin stories, the centaur war, and a major funder of the Separatists.

[ThatOddOne.4387]

@"Eekasqueak.7850" said:Don't really want another human centric storyline personally.

This whole "X-race centric storyline isn't/is required" is just boring to me now, honestly. Just tell a good story and expand on the lore regardless of what races are involved. The whole drive for 'narrative balance' between different races/factions all but killed World of Warcraft's story.

[Eekasqueak.7850]

@ThatOddOne.4387 said:

@"Eekasqueak.7850" said:Don't really want another human centric storyline personally.

This whole "X-race centric storyline isn't/is required" is just boring to me now, honestly. Just tell a good story and expand on the lore regardless of what races are involved. The whole drive for 'narrative balance' between different races/factions all but killed World of Warcraft's story.

I was just stating my opinion because I'm not terribly interested in Human politics in the setting. No need to get so defensive.

[ThatOddOne.4387]

You said 'human centric', which isn't going to be just politics.

[Eekasqueak.7850]

Maybe I'm just not interested in stuff about humans in the setting? I feel like I was pretty respectful about disagreeing but you insist on turning it into a problem.

[devanea.2041]

I'm certainly not with the expectation that there should or will be a story that focuses on the topic of human/charr conflict. That has been a core element of Guild Wars since the Guild Wars 1. It's been a topic covered in the original game, in the novels and in Guild Wars 2. So the core of it has likely ran it's course. Eight years has gone by and we only know it's a treaty because a NPC refers to it as such in Dragonfall. Almost like Anet was like 'oh yeah.. probably is a treaty now, whoops lets just.. add that in there.'

We don't know the terms of it though, to what extent does it help Ebonhawke beyond 'we won't blow up your walls anymore'? So I definitely think that when Icebrood Saga wraps up, we finish the last episode there just needs to be a NPC that shows up in Ebonhawke that fills in some of the details on how the Ebonhawke treaty is effected by the events of Icebrood Saga. They clearly can do that and it wouldn't be invasive to any future story. Just some filler to reflect the details. "The new Imperators met with Jennah and Samuelson and the treaty was ratified with signatures of the new leaders' etc etc.

Updates on NPCs and dialogue in the older maps for players who have done LS content would be great to see anyway. It would really feel like a living world.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@"devanea.2041" said:Eight years has gone by and we only know it's a treaty because a NPC refers to it as such in Dragonfall. Almost like Anet was like 'oh yeah.. probably is a treaty now, whoops lets just.. add that in there.'This is false:

Ambassador Versa Elidor: The Ebonhawke treaty is Kryta's only hope for peace with the charr. We cannot withdraw our negotiators, no matter the risk.[…]General Almorra Soulkeeper: Now, to business. Renegades are threatening the treaty negotiations between Kryta and the Iron Legion.General Almorra Soulkeeper: The Vigil needs to ensure that the treaty goes through. Those two nations need to be fighting the dragons, not each other.General Almorra Soulkeeper: You'll be dealing with Commander Samuelsson, leader of the Ebon Vanguard and avid treaty supporter. Head to Ebonhawke, and stop those Renegades.[…]Commander Samuelsson: Scouts tell us the Renegades have a camp outside Ebonhawke, but my troops are tied up defending the treaty location.

General Almorra has asked me to assist Warmaster Forgal on a mission to Ascalon, where the treaty at Ebonhawke is in jeopardy from renegades. The Vigil wants the peace to succeed.https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/A_Fragile_Peace

It is called a treaty in the very first Vigil personal story instance five times and once more in the story journal for that step. It is again called a treaty once in the next two instances each, seven times during Minister's Defense (and once in story journal), and four times in Quastor's Siege (again, once in story journal too).

In Fields of Ruin, it's called a treaty by Minister Duran, Representative Markel, Vanguard Morrison, and many, many more - including most (if not every) NPC at Summit Peak.

It has always been called a treaty. It's just that the treaty was in negotiations and not signed until Xeniph was added into the game.