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Perceived toxicity


yann.1946

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The recent tread about matchmaking has made me think about an important problem in raids.

The perceived toxicity that gets complained about. Because it doesn't really matter that it's a false observation (no complete group of people is toxic unless they are defined by being toxic)When new players think that raiders are toxic it will scare people away which is a problem as it might be content they enjoy.

So as a question: What are you're suggestions to reduce this problems.BTW i am aware of a multitude of things being done to accommodate it, just curious to see if theirs something we missed.

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Problem often is ..they get viewed as toxic because they refused to willingly , and consistently give up their expertise and time for absolutely free to accommodate and carry someone who often has no interest in getting better to be able to do things in a more proficient manner.

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Honestly if the player is new and trying to do their best, Raiders won't give them too much trouble.(Though I really recommend newbies to raids to join learning groups)

The ones which Raiders really hate are the fools who :

  1. Are new
  2. Refuse to use a meta build despite being new
  3. Argue with the Raiders after point 1 and point 2 has been engaged and refuse to accept that "no, we are not gonna accommodate yur nonsense" as an answer
  4. Proceed to whine and cry about how "Raiders are being toxic and never give newbies a chance"

How to reduce this problem?Simple : Record the number of kill each player has on their account.Use the LFG and have a new filter to filter how many kills yu want or expect yur party to have achieved.

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@Sigmoid.7082 said:Problem often is ..they get viewed as toxic because they refused to willingly , and consistently give up their expertise and time for absolutely free to accommodate and carry someone who often has no interest in getting better to be able to do things in a more proficient manner.

Tbh, i feel that that their is a bigger problem wit players who haven't interacted with raiders and still presume toxicity.

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@"Yasai.3549" said:Honestly if the player is new and trying to do their best, Raiders won't give them too much trouble.(Though I really recommend newbies to raids to join learning groups)

The ones which Raiders really hate are the fools who :

  1. Are new
  2. Refuse to use a meta build despite being new
  3. Argue with the Raiders after point 1 and point 2 has been engaged and refuse to accept that "no, we are not gonna accommodate yur nonsense" as an answer
  4. Proceed to whine and cry about how "Raiders are being toxic and never give newbies a chance"

How to reduce this problem?Simple : Record the number of kill each player has on their account.Use the LFG and have a new filter to filter how many kills yu want or expect yur party to have achieved.

I agree, but i was more talking about the perceived perception before they enter a raid. A decent amount of new raiders posts here on the forum are of the form

1: To afraid to try raids because of the toxicity of players.2:Something chenged which froced them in (a guild/boredom/...)3: coming to the realisation that the bad press was overblown.

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@yann.1946 said:

@"Yasai.3549" said:Honestly if the player is new and trying to do their best, Raiders won't give them too much trouble.(Though I really recommend newbies to raids to join learning groups)

The ones which Raiders really hate are the fools who :
  1. Are new
  2. Refuse to use a meta build despite being new
  3. Argue with the Raiders after point 1 and point 2 has been engaged and refuse to accept that "no, we are not gonna accommodate yur nonsense" as an answer
  4. Proceed to whine and cry about how "Raiders are being toxic and never give newbies a chance"

How to reduce this problem?Simple : Record the number of kill each player has on their account.Use the LFG and have a new filter to filter how many kills yu want or expect yur party to have achieved.

I agree, but i was more talking about the perceived perception before they enter a raid. A decent amount of new raiders posts here on the forum are of the form

1: To afraid to try raids because of the toxicity of players.2:Something chenged which froced them in (a guild/boredom/...)3: coming to the realisation that the bad press was overblown.

What’s the incentive for new players to raid in the first place? Legendary Armor? Legendary ring? These items can be obtained from other modes, with a lot less hassle. Story? Maybe, I suppose,

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@Tyson.5160 said:

@"Yasai.3549" said:Honestly if the player is new and trying to do their best, Raiders won't give them too much trouble.(Though I really recommend newbies to raids to join learning groups)

The ones which Raiders really hate are the fools who :
  1. Are new
  2. Refuse to use a meta build despite being new
  3. Argue with the Raiders after point 1 and point 2 has been engaged and refuse to accept that "no, we are not gonna accommodate yur nonsense" as an answer
  4. Proceed to whine and cry about how "Raiders are being toxic and never give newbies a chance"

How to reduce this problem?Simple : Record the number of kill each player has on their account.Use the LFG and have a new filter to filter how many kills yu want or expect yur party to have achieved.

I agree, but i was more talking about the perceived perception before they enter a raid. A decent amount of new raiders posts here on the forum are of the form

1: To afraid to try raids because of the toxicity of players.2:Something chenged which forced them in (a guild/boredom/...)3: coming to the realisation that the bad press was overblown.

What’s the incentive for new players to raid in the first place? Legendary Armor? Legendary ring? These items can be obtained from other modes, with a lot less hassle. Story? Maybe, I suppose,

Some friends wanting to try, Having done everything else, legendary gear and not liking the pvp modes, a specific raidskin.

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There is no positive feedback, at least nothing visible. Most of the public discussions related to raiding exist because somewhere someone ran into trouble. There are a lot of topics why KP/LI system is bad with intense destructive discussion featuring both sides, accusing each others of being intolerant and toxic. There are discussions about ArcDPS which also lean towards the same direction. What raiding totally lacks are threads and discussions talking about positive impressions of the game-mode. That is both the case for the General Discussion, but also for this sub-forum. I mean, just look at the current main-page of the Fractals/Dungeons/Strike Missions/Raids board. I found 7 topics with perceived toxicity.

When there are raid-related topics discussed in the General Discussion section, it is often negative and at best neutral, but positive? Not to mention those charming requests for higher difficulty content, which often result in destructive feedback as well. Or the rants of certain members of your sub-community, which pretty much fit the prejudice of the aggressive elitist raider. That is not helping at all and harms your reputation even more.

I do not ask you to be silent about problems. When there is trouble, we have to talk, discuss and find a solution - or at least try to do that. But you should stop shrugging whenever something works out as it should. In the General Discussion section, there are threads about why the community is great, how helpful players can be. Whenever I come up with any suggestion towards your sub-community, I basically earn a /shrug and some "too much work, not worth it" or "if YOU see a problem, YOU should solve it!" Crossing the arms, waiting for the problem to just go away.

Now I am going to do something I may regret within the next hour. Making the first move. Starting a topic in your sub-forum about positive PUG and LFG experience. It will definitely not solve the problem, but I think it might be a step into the right direction. The more replies, the better. Best would be to keep the topic active and bump it with a new post every week, so there is at least something positive on your main page.

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Good day,

I'm not sure where the toxic thing comes from. I started raiding at hot launch and had trouble finding training. Picked a herald and a com tag and bashed my head against a wall for months on end. My last struggle was w5 with a 20 hour progression where I burned through over 100 pugs. Where I am now failing a raid is the exception and clean clears are the standard.

The only time I see conflict is when raiders of different tiers of skill and experience struggle on an encounter. The experienced group gets tired or annoyed at wasting time and the less exp raiders may get trashed on for a real or perceived lack of experience. For example of I am g3 on dhuum and I fail 3 times in a row well I am Linda expecting a kick at that point.

Ive been in the game since day 0 and nowhere in the game has someone told me certain people are toxic. Pugs may have talked mad trash as I kick them from dropping bombs on the team ,but that's on them. It wasn't untill I came to the forums that I see a boat load of complaints about raiding. Kinda sad. It's the only thing I do in guild wars 2 and without new content there isn't much else to do.

Regards

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Unless something has magically changed, the toxicity isn't a figment of the imagination. Back when dungeons were the end game, if something went wrong you didn't just get kicked, you got shouted at for 10 minutes by an angry tryhard about mistakes that you weren't even making. By nature of being the "elite" content, it is going to attract people who think of themselves as God's gift to the game, people who've dedicated themselves to peak performance from self-esteem issues, and people who put an inordinate amount of value on their time in spite of clocking several thousand hours on a videogame.

It can't be fixed. The antonym to toxicity is forgiveness, and forgiveness is something that you are forced to do in person. GW2, however, is an environment with anonymity and limitless faceless cogs to choose from, where communication can be ceased just by pressing the block button. You're free to wrong somebody however you like, so long as it is not forbidden by the rules. You don't have to deal with them in person, and there will always be somebody else to replace them. There is no sense of community, and the inability for other people to get their foot into the door is their problem.

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@"yann.1946" said:The recent tread about matchmaking has made me think about an important problem in raids.

The perceived toxicity that gets complained about. Because it doesn't really matter that it's a false observation (no complete group of people is toxic unless they are defined by being toxic)When new players think that raiders are toxic it will scare people away which is a problem as it might be content they enjoy.

So as a question: What are you're suggestions to reduce this problems.BTW i am aware of a multitude of things being done to accommodate it, just curious to see if theirs something we missed.This problem doesn't go away.There is a core group of players in this community who believe that any content they find too difficult and cannot get carried through needs to see immediate development.So they lie.The complaints about toxicity is just part of the false rhetoric. it's no different than "the developers claimed I could play how I want" or "I can't join strikes because of the LFGs" or "this was made to be a casual game".There is no greater concentration of toxic behavior in this game than a failed Tarir meta.

The problem doesn't go away as long as Anet continues to pander to this crowd by hiding them from their own poor performance, showering them with rewards for doing nothing and actioning dissenting opinions on this forum.

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@"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:Unless something has magically changed, the toxicity isn't a figment of the imagination. Back when dungeons were the end game, if something went wrong you didn't just get kicked, you got shouted at for 10 minutes by an angry tryhard about mistakes that you weren't even making. By nature of being the "elite" content, it is going to attract people who think of themselves as God's gift to the game, people who've dedicated themselves to peak performance from self-esteem issues, and people who put an inordinate amount of value on their time in spite of clocking several thousand hours on a videogame.

It can't be fixed. The antonym to toxicity is forgiveness, and forgiveness is something that you are forced to do in person. GW2, however, is an environment with anonymity and limitless faceless cogs to choose from, where communication can be ceased just by pressing the block button. You're free to wrong somebody however you like, so long as it is not forbidden by the rules. You don't have to deal with them in person, and there will always be somebody else to replace them. There is no sense of community, and the inability for other people to get their foot into the door is their problem.

This is exactly the kind of thing OP is talking about, and just reinforces my point that nothing any raiders say or do will ever change people like this' mind. The notion that anyone who makes a mistake is berated for 10 minutes regularly is frankly ridiculous and an outright lie. I am sure this person would defend this statement however, despite overwhelming evidence against it.

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@zombyturtle.5980 said:

@"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:Unless something has magically changed, the toxicity isn't a figment of the imagination. Back when dungeons were the end game, if something went wrong you didn't just get kicked, you got shouted at for 10 minutes by an angry tryhard about mistakes that you weren't even making. By nature of being the "elite" content, it is going to attract people who think of themselves as God's gift to the game, people who've dedicated themselves to peak performance from self-esteem issues, and people who put an inordinate amount of value on their time in spite of clocking several thousand hours on a videogame.

It can't be fixed. The antonym to toxicity is forgiveness, and forgiveness is something that you are forced to do in person. GW2, however, is an environment with anonymity and limitless faceless cogs to choose from, where communication can be ceased just by pressing the block button. You're free to wrong somebody however you like, so long as it is not forbidden by the rules. You don't have to deal with them in person, and there will always be somebody else to replace them. There is no sense of community, and the inability for other people to get their foot into the door is
their
problem.

This is exactly the kind of thing OP is talking about, and just reinforces my point that nothing any raiders say or do will ever change people like this' mind. The notion that anyone who makes a mistake is berated for 10 minutes regularly is frankly ridiculous and an outright lie. I am sure this person would defend this statement however, despite overwhelming evidence against it.

It's no lie. It's personal experience. It has happened in this game, and it has happened in other games. Nearly every game I've played, whether it be MMOs or card battle games or even just regular sports, has had this exact same problem. No matter how niche, nor matter how broadly it appealed, it has the same toxicity issues. This is because toxic people exist, and the same personality traits that make them toxic also make them try really hard in silly and pointless endeavors. I've seen Giraffes, stomping around and being yellow and spotted. It'll take a whole hell of a lot to convince me that Giraffes aren't real, and accusations against my character are not sufficient evidence.

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its the minority. most people in the game are fine. openworld, dungeons, fractals, speedrunning, selling content, playing with casuals, with hardcore players, with pugs, withwhatever since years. only problems with a minority of players.forum warriors like @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 have their own problems and, whyever the reason for that, use forums as a ventile for that, trying to get even more fuel into the fire.its the minority where you often have to judge case by case. the majority is definitly not like this and pretty understanding. everything good since years never finds their way into the forums, just people which need to vent.

just don't waste your time on people which just shit on you anyway. give them something to bite / bait on so they have something to do with their time and then ignore them.

perceived toxicity is basically in the same category as those genderstudy whatever dudes from the us. not even 1% but pretty loud on media.for every dude who said i am toxic, i have at least 10 others which think otherwise. so in the end: i can live with that one dude...hopefully hes mad like shit. :)

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@zombyturtle.5980 said:

@"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:Unless something has magically changed, the toxicity isn't a figment of the imagination. Back when dungeons were the end game, if something went wrong you didn't just get kicked, you got shouted at for 10 minutes by an angry tryhard about mistakes that you weren't even making. By nature of being the "elite" content, it is going to attract people who think of themselves as God's gift to the game, people who've dedicated themselves to peak performance from self-esteem issues, and people who put an inordinate amount of value on their time in spite of clocking several thousand hours on a videogame.

It can't be fixed. The antonym to toxicity is forgiveness, and forgiveness is something that you are forced to do in person. GW2, however, is an environment with anonymity and limitless faceless cogs to choose from, where communication can be ceased just by pressing the block button. You're free to wrong somebody however you like, so long as it is not forbidden by the rules. You don't have to deal with them in person, and there will always be somebody else to replace them. There is no sense of community, and the inability for other people to get their foot into the door is
their
problem.

This is exactly the kind of thing OP is talking about, and just reinforces my point that nothing any raiders say or do will ever change people like this' mind. The notion that anyone who makes a mistake is berated for 10 minutes regularly is frankly ridiculous and an outright lie. I am sure this person would defend this statement however, despite overwhelming evidence against it.

in case of raids they can see if someone underperforms through arc its not possible to get carried without the rest these who try usually dont want to learn they want rewards

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@Laila Lightness.8742 said:

@"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:Unless something has magically changed, the toxicity isn't a figment of the imagination. Back when dungeons were the end game, if something went wrong you didn't just get kicked, you got shouted at for 10 minutes by an angry tryhard about mistakes that you weren't even making. By nature of being the "elite" content, it is going to attract people who think of themselves as God's gift to the game, people who've dedicated themselves to peak performance from self-esteem issues, and people who put an inordinate amount of value on their time in spite of clocking several thousand hours on a videogame.

It can't be fixed. The antonym to toxicity is forgiveness, and forgiveness is something that you are forced to do in person. GW2, however, is an environment with anonymity and limitless faceless cogs to choose from, where communication can be ceased just by pressing the block button. You're free to wrong somebody however you like, so long as it is not forbidden by the rules. You don't have to deal with them in person, and there will always be somebody else to replace them. There is no sense of community, and the inability for other people to get their foot into the door is
their
problem.

This is exactly the kind of thing OP is talking about, and just reinforces my point that nothing any raiders say or do will ever change people like this' mind. The notion that anyone who makes a mistake is berated for 10 minutes regularly is frankly ridiculous and an outright lie. I am sure this person would defend this statement however, despite overwhelming evidence against it.

in case of raids they can see if someone underperforms through arc its not possible to get carried without the rest these who try usually dont want to learn they want rewards

It's not so simple. A recent example I saw of this was in fractals, CM100. We were running the standard Healbrand + Alacrigade + 3 DPS. This run seemed like any other, until we got to Artsariiv. It crashed pretty quickly. I noticed that everyone except me and the HB were being thrown around like rag dolls. In the middle of the attempt, a series of complaints were thrown out that the HB was bad because he wasn't giving stability to the group. The standard Healbrand build at the time was similar to the one now, in that it doesn't run Mantra of Liberation. It runs Feel My Wrath, for quickness and fury.

Of course, a fight broke out between the HB and the other DPS players. The DPSers were angry because they expected the HB to bring Mantra of Liberation... without voicing this concern before the fight. As a consequence of this, they outright refused to dodge Artsariiv's or the elite's ground slam, even after it became clear that they weren't getting stability. They didn't run stunbreaks, either. The HB didn't want to change his lineup, because he was using those skills to buff everyone. He insisted that the other players just dodge the shockwaves, which was standard in PUG runs. But the other guys still outright refused to dodge, and began hurling insults. In the middle of the second attempt, after the first CC-induced death, a series of cascading quits ended the run.

It was the epitome of melodrama, where the DPSers were throwing themselves into CCs, just to spite the HB for not customizing his build just to suit their playstyle. Yet, you can't call either party unskilled. It was just two groups who had different expectations, and were too stubborn to compromise.

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@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:Unless something has magically changed, the toxicity isn't a figment of the imagination. Back when dungeons were the end game, if something went wrong you didn't just get kicked, you got shouted at for 10 minutes by an angry tryhard about mistakes that you weren't even making. By nature of being the "elite" content, it is going to attract people who think of themselves as God's gift to the game, people who've dedicated themselves to peak performance from self-esteem issues, and people who put an inordinate amount of value on their time in spite of clocking several thousand hours on a videogame.

It can't be fixed. The antonym to toxicity is forgiveness, and forgiveness is something that you are forced to do in person. GW2, however, is an environment with anonymity and limitless faceless cogs to choose from, where communication can be ceased just by pressing the block button. You're free to wrong somebody however you like, so long as it is not forbidden by the rules. You don't have to deal with them in person, and there will always be somebody else to replace them. There is no sense of community, and the inability for other people to get their foot into the door is
their
problem.

This is exactly the kind of thing OP is talking about, and just reinforces my point that nothing any raiders say or do will ever change people like this' mind. The notion that anyone who makes a mistake is berated for 10 minutes regularly is frankly ridiculous and an outright lie. I am sure this person would defend this statement however, despite overwhelming evidence against it.

in case of raids they can see if someone underperforms through arc its not possible to get carried without the rest these who try usually dont want to learn they want rewards

It's not so simple. A recent example I saw of this was in fractals, CM100. We were running the standard Healbrand + Alacrigade + 3 DPS. This run seemed like any other, until we got to Artsariiv. It crashed pretty quickly. I noticed that everyone except me and the HB were being thrown around like rag dolls. In the middle of the attempt, a series of complaints were thrown out that the HB was bad because he wasn't giving stability to the group. The standard Healbrand build at the time was similar to the one now, in that it doesn't run Mantra of Liberation. It runs Feel My Wrath, for quickness and fury.

Of course, a fight broke out between the HB and the other DPS players. The DPSers were angry because they expected the HB to bring Mantra of Liberation... without voicing this concern before the fight. As a consequence of this, they outright refused to dodge Artsariiv's or the elite's ground slam, even after it became clear that they weren't getting stability. They didn't run stunbreaks, either. The HB didn't want to change his lineup, because he was using those skills to buff everyone. He insisted that the other players just dodge the shockwaves, which was standard in PUG runs. But the other guys still outright refused to dodge, and began hurling insults. In the middle of the second attempt, after the first CC-induced death, a series of cascading quits ended the run.

It was the epitome of melodrama, where the DPSers were throwing themselves into CCs, just to spite the HB for not customizing his build just to suit their playstyle. Yet, you can't call either party unskilled. It was just two groups who had different expectations, and were too stubborn to compromise.

Never gonna understand the use of feel my wrath you enough quickness and fury as axe 2 symbol has short cd. Also sounds like there was no shout stab either

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@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:Unless something has magically changed, the toxicity isn't a figment of the imagination. Back when dungeons were the end game, if something went wrong you didn't just get kicked, you got shouted at for 10 minutes by an angry tryhard about mistakes that you weren't even making. By nature of being the "elite" content, it is going to attract people who think of themselves as God's gift to the game, people who've dedicated themselves to peak performance from self-esteem issues, and people who put an inordinate amount of value on their time in spite of clocking several thousand hours on a videogame.

It can't be fixed. The antonym to toxicity is forgiveness, and forgiveness is something that you are forced to do in person. GW2, however, is an environment with anonymity and limitless faceless cogs to choose from, where communication can be ceased just by pressing the block button. You're free to wrong somebody however you like, so long as it is not forbidden by the rules. You don't have to deal with them in person, and there will always be somebody else to replace them. There is no sense of community, and the inability for other people to get their foot into the door is
their
problem.

This is exactly the kind of thing OP is talking about, and just reinforces my point that nothing any raiders say or do will ever change people like this' mind. The notion that anyone who makes a mistake is berated for 10 minutes regularly is frankly ridiculous and an outright lie. I am sure this person would defend this statement however, despite overwhelming evidence against it.

It's no lie. It's personal experience. It has happened in this game, and it has happened in other games. Nearly every game I've played, whether it be MMOs or card battle games or even just regular sports, has had this exact same problem. No matter how niche, nor matter how broadly it appealed, it has the same toxicity issues. This is because toxic people exist, and the same personality traits that make them toxic also make them try really hard in silly and pointless endeavors. I've seen Giraffes, stomping around and being yellow and spotted. It'll take a whole hell of a lot to convince me that Giraffes aren't real, and accusations against my character are not sufficient evidence.

We'll these things are not mutually exclusive. Nobodies disputing toxic people exist. But saying the MAJORITY is wrong, like not a difference of opinion wrong but factually wrong. As their are lots of groups without toxicity problems.

In my opinion people are conflating experiencing 1 toxic encounter with "the majority of players in xyz gamemode are toxic".

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@yann.1946 said:

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:Unless something has magically changed, the toxicity isn't a figment of the imagination. Back when dungeons were the end game, if something went wrong you didn't just get kicked, you got shouted at for 10 minutes by an angry tryhard about mistakes that you weren't even making. By nature of being the "elite" content, it is going to attract people who think of themselves as God's gift to the game, people who've dedicated themselves to peak performance from self-esteem issues, and people who put an inordinate amount of value on their time in spite of clocking several thousand hours on a videogame.

It can't be fixed. The antonym to toxicity is forgiveness, and forgiveness is something that you are forced to do in person. GW2, however, is an environment with anonymity and limitless faceless cogs to choose from, where communication can be ceased just by pressing the block button. You're free to wrong somebody however you like, so long as it is not forbidden by the rules. You don't have to deal with them in person, and there will always be somebody else to replace them. There is no sense of community, and the inability for other people to get their foot into the door is
their
problem.

This is exactly the kind of thing OP is talking about, and just reinforces my point that nothing any raiders say or do will ever change people like this' mind. The notion that anyone who makes a mistake is berated for 10 minutes regularly is frankly ridiculous and an outright lie. I am sure this person would defend this statement however, despite overwhelming evidence against it.

It's no lie. It's personal experience. It has happened in this game, and it has happened in other games. Nearly every game I've played, whether it be MMOs or card battle games or even just regular sports, has had this exact same problem. No matter how niche, nor matter how broadly it appealed, it has the same toxicity issues. This is because toxic people exist, and the same personality traits that make them toxic also make them try really hard in silly and pointless endeavors. I've seen Giraffes, stomping around and being yellow and spotted. It'll take a whole hell of a lot to convince me that Giraffes aren't real, and accusations against my character are not sufficient evidence.

We'll these things are not mutually exclusive. Nobodies disputing toxic people exist. But saying the MAJORITY is wrong, like not a difference of opinion wrong but factually wrong. As their are lots of groups without toxicity problems.

In my opinion people are conflating experiencing 1 toxic encounter with "the majority of players in xyz gamemode are toxic".

You are toxic if you tell someone they should play something you dont what build you use should be your decision was how i thinked back in the days. If i want for example raid as a bearbow i should be allowed to do so . But toxicy is also perspective some ppl see advices as toxic like calling them dumb or forcing a playstyle they dont like but should it take others time. Like first time i joinef raid training i used bearbow build thought telling me to use druid was toxic. As my build worked great in open world we failed 18 times on pre vg for having no might or heals i got kicked and got angry over being kicked as in my view it was unfair. Now i realise i wasted that groups time i saw my time was worth more than the 9 other ppl in group

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@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:It's not so simple. A recent example I saw of this was in fractals, CM100. We were running the standard Healbrand + Alacrigade + 3 DPS. This run seemed like any other, until we got to Artsariiv. It crashed pretty quickly. I noticed that everyone except me and the HB were being thrown around like rag dolls. In the middle of the attempt, a series of complaints were thrown out that the HB was bad because he wasn't giving stability to the group. The standard Healbrand build at the time was similar to the one now, in that it doesn't run Mantra of Liberation. It runs Feel My Wrath, for quickness and fury.

Of course, a fight broke out between the HB and the other DPS players. The DPSers were angry because they expected the HB to bring Mantra of Liberation... without voicing this concern before the fight. As a consequence of this, they outright refused to dodge Artsariiv's or the elite's ground slam, even after it became clear that they weren't getting stability. They didn't run stunbreaks, either. The HB didn't want to change his lineup, because he was using those skills to buff everyone. He insisted that the other players just dodge the shockwaves, which was standard in PUG runs. But the other guys still outright refused to dodge, and began hurling insults. In the middle of the second attempt, after the first CC-induced death, a series of cascading quits ended the run.

This happens if you mix up two groups with an experience gap. To me it seems like the hfb and/or (depends ift it was npng day) renegade were not that experienced in 100cm. On the other side an atleast half decent dps should just dodge the knockback and accept the dps downtime - shouldnt be that drastic.

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@"yann.1946" said:The recent tread about matchmaking has made me think about an important problem in raids.

The perceived toxicity that gets complained about.

The core of this problem has nothing to do with raids themselves. Because it already existed back in the old dungeon-run days.

So as a question: What are you're suggestions to reduce this problems.

The best thing would be, if Anet made a new, better LFG-tool or fix the classes (small changes in player skill can make a very big difference). But I do not believe, this will happen.

So there is not much to suggest to non-raiders, but:

  1. No pugging for beginners: The players that are afraid about other "toxic players" should never PUG. They should look for a nice guild that does regular and/or training raid runs.
  2. Don't take it personal when someone acts like an idiot. Just leave and ignore. And if you find some nice, friendly other players, put them on your friends-list and ask them, if you could sometime run again with them in the future.
  3. If you are afraid for committing playing with 9 other players for several hours and/or if you do not want to put some effort in gearing-up and learning for raids, then raids are not for you. sorry.
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@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:Unless something has magically changed, the toxicity isn't a figment of the imagination. Back when dungeons were the end game, if something went wrong you didn't just get kicked, you got shouted at for 10 minutes by an angry tryhard about mistakes that you weren't even making. By nature of being the "elite" content, it is going to attract people who think of themselves as God's gift to the game, people who've dedicated themselves to peak performance from self-esteem issues, and people who put an inordinate amount of value on their time in spite of clocking several thousand hours on a videogame.

It can't be fixed. The antonym to toxicity is forgiveness, and forgiveness is something that you are forced to do in person. GW2, however, is an environment with anonymity and limitless faceless cogs to choose from, where communication can be ceased just by pressing the block button. You're free to wrong somebody however you like, so long as it is not forbidden by the rules. You don't have to deal with them in person, and there will always be somebody else to replace them. There is no sense of community, and the inability for other people to get their foot into the door is
their
problem.

This is exactly the kind of thing OP is talking about, and just reinforces my point that nothing any raiders say or do will ever change people like this' mind. The notion that anyone who makes a mistake is berated for 10 minutes regularly is frankly ridiculous and an outright lie. I am sure this person would defend this statement however, despite overwhelming evidence against it.

in case of raids they can see if someone underperforms through arc its not possible to get carried without the rest these who try usually dont want to learn they want rewards

It's not so simple. A recent example I saw of this was in fractals, CM100. We were running the standard Healbrand + Alacrigade + 3 DPS. This run seemed like any other, until we got to Artsariiv. It crashed pretty quickly. I noticed that everyone except me and the HB were being thrown around like rag dolls. In the middle of the attempt, a series of complaints were thrown out that the HB was bad because he wasn't giving stability to the group. The standard Healbrand build at the time was similar to the one now, in that it doesn't run Mantra of Liberation. It runs Feel My Wrath, for quickness and fury.

Not to derail from your anecdote, but that is exactly the reason why I actively discourage Healbrand players of ever using FmW (and find the fact it is the go-to skill in most builds detrimental.). It is neither needed for permanent, quickness or fury (if the Healbrand is running either Axe or Sword on one of his sets, which he should) nor is it in any way useful for anything else.

A proper Healbrand uses Mantra of Liberation nearly ALL the time, with very few custom exceptions. Even when Mantra of Liberation is not needed, I discourage the use of FmW, because it makes upkeep of fury and quickness to easy and reduces the players awareness of when to use his skills to upkeep fury and quickness (which would show up via bad uptime IF he started making mistakes while not using FmW).

In more casual runs it is quite custom for the Alacrigrade to run dwarv for stability, which is not possible when No Pain, No Gain is active. Where every Healbrand worth their salt should be running MoL.

Now not going to lie, if PUG players expect stability because they can't dodge mechanics, they should have made that known. There are a lot of Healbrands who do not consider providing stability as part of their role. Some will even defend to the death that FmW is needed for permanent upkeep (it is not on HB).

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:Of course, a fight broke out between the HB and the other DPS players. The DPSers were angry because they expected the HB to bring Mantra of Liberation... without voicing this concern before the fight. As a consequence of this, they outright refused to dodge Artsariiv's or the elite's ground slam, even after it became clear that they weren't getting stability. They didn't run stunbreaks, either. The HB didn't want to change his lineup, because he was using those skills to buff everyone. He insisted that the other players just dodge the shockwaves, which was standard in PUG runs. But the other guys still outright refused to dodge, and began hurling insults. In the middle of the second attempt, after the first CC-induced death, a series of cascading quits ended the run.

It was the epitome of melodrama, where the DPSers were throwing themselves into CCs, just to spite the HB for not customizing his build just to suit their playstyle. Yet, you can't call either party unskilled. It was just two groups who had different expectations, and were too stubborn to compromise.

Actually, all of them were unskilled. The HB could have adapted his build and carried the team, which is more than possible with his kit. The dps could have adapted and dodged attacks. In essence, all where mediocre players at best.

Also one of the reasons discretize does not recommend the build. It actually makes players worse at a fractal by not forcing them to learn all of the mechanics and simply relying on 1 class to carry them.

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