When are the rest of elite spec trade offs?

[Fueki.4753]

@Anchoku.8142 said:Originally, elite specializations were presented as being equal to core.But what they should have been turned into power creep, possibly to help ship more expansion copies.

[Moradorin.6217]

@"ASP.8093" said:I think many of these discussions are too tunnel-visioned on class icons. I encountered at least three distinct Tempest builds last night in WvW. If you pigeonholed that spec harder so two of those three became slightly weaker core ele builds instead — or just stopped being viable entirely — what positive difference would it make for the metagame?

Ultimately, the reason that a lot of elite specs get played is that, like a lot of expansion content in video games, they address real gaps in the starting lineup. The risk with the "tradeoffs" project is that it's mostly about artificially introducing new, jankier gaps to try to appeal to some kind of sense of symmetry on paper. That doesn't mean all the "tradeoffs" were terrible, but it does mean that ultimately I think trying to use "tradeoffs" as some kind of design philosophy for elite specs is a dead end, which is why attempts to impose the "tradeoffs" have produced very mixed results.

well said.

[Yasai.3549]

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:Holosmith loses the elite toolbelt skill. Reaper Shroud burns away twice as fast as regular shroud. Tempests get increased attunement cooldowns on overloads. Firebrand loses the instant-cast virtues for their books.

Firebrand has no trade offs, just mechanic alterations.I don't know how anyone can see 15 extra spells as a tradeoff.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

@Yasai.3549 said:

@"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:Holosmith loses the elite toolbelt skill. Reaper Shroud burns away twice as fast as regular shroud. Tempests get increased attunement cooldowns on overloads. Firebrand loses the instant-cast virtues for their books.

Firebrand has no trade offs, just mechanic alterations.I don't know how anyone can see 15 extra spells as a tradeoff.

The original virtues are instant-cast, while the books all have animations and are much slower.

Make no mistake, these "tradeoffs" are not equal among all professions. Far from it. But they are still technically tradeoffs. Firebrands lose the original functions of the virtues.

[Laila Lightness.8742]

Trade of could be you cant use core skills only espec skill. And weaver is alot stronger than tempest. Holo has downsides like overheating is actually very dangerouse

[Astyrah.4015]

daredevil's swipe (F1) is just the same as thief's steal (F1) they just changed the name. fuction is similar if im not mistaken.EDIT: the range is different. so that's the tradefoff my bad

deadeye trades off the free shadowstep/gapcloser (Steal/F1) for a "ranged steal" (if running a Rifle build this isnt a tradeoff since F1/Mark will act as a range finder where you know you're exactly at 1500range if you're far away and attempting to close in on an enemy prior to engaging kneel)

[ASP.8093]

@"Astyrah.4015" said:daredevil's swipe (F1) is just the same as thief's steal (F1) they just changed the name. fuction is similar if im not mistaken.EDIT: the range is different. so that's the tradefoff my bad

deadeye trades off the free shadowstep/gapcloser (Steal/F1) for a "ranged steal" (if running a Rifle build this isnt a tradeoff since F1/Mark will act as a range finder where you know you're exactly at 1500range if you're far away and attempting to close in on an enemy prior to engaging kneel)

Kneel itself is a 1500-range rangefinder; select a target and then look at the red bar under the skill.

Compared to Steal, Mark:

• Doesn't teleport you (either a blessing or a curse, depending on the build and situation)
• Has a cast time (!!)
• Gives you a different kind of stolen skill, generally a bit weaker but also much more consistent (boon for you, condition for them, stealth if at >5 malice)
• Benefits from the unique Deadeye mechanics that instantly reset it when you kill your marked prey

[Taril.8619]

@ASP.8093 said:

@"Astyrah.4015" said:daredevil's swipe (F1) is just the same as thief's steal (F1) they just changed the name. fuction is similar if im not mistaken.EDIT: the range is different. so that's the tradefoff my bad

deadeye trades off the free shadowstep/gapcloser (Steal/F1) for a "ranged steal" (if running a Rifle build this isnt a tradeoff since F1/Mark will act as a range finder where you know you're exactly at 1500range if you're far away and attempting to close in on an enemy prior to engaging kneel)

Kneel itself is a 1500-range rangefinder; select a target and then look at the red bar under the skill.

Or look at the blue ring that shows you your range limit while kneeling...

[Astyrah.4015]

@ASP.8093 said:Kneel itself is a 1500-range rangefinder; select a target and then look at the red bar under the skill.

Compared to Steal, Mark:

• Doesn't teleport you (either a blessing or a curse, depending on the build and situation)
• Has a cast time (!!)
• Gives you a different kind of stolen skill, generally a bit weaker but also much more consistent (boon for you, condition for them, stealth if at >5 malice)
• Benefits from the unique Deadeye mechanics that instantly reset it when you kill your marked prey

+

@Taril.8619 said:Or look at the blue ring that shows you your range limit while kneeling...

yeah kneel is a range finder too as is the blue ring but when you're far away it's sorta awkward to kneel on and off to check if you're within range, ofcourse it's also just easier to run to midrange where most of the people are (this is what i do mostly when playing deadeye rifle, since being at 1500 range has the inconvenience of the boss being out of range by just moving slightly off)

just wanted to add thief into this thread since i didnt see it being mentioned yet :p

[KrHome.1920]

@"LaFurion.3167" said:Holosmith is the major offender. Same with reaper when compared to any other power version of core necro.

Firebrand also needs looking at. I see zero trade off here.

Even reapers shroud has a CD. Holosmith can go in and out whenever, and can use utility skills lol.

What about tempest, what's the trade off from core ele? Its better than core in every way, you can to overload attunements. And dont just band aid another -300 trait to the elite spec. Penalty traits like scrapper, berserker, mirage are all terrible ways to "solve" (if it can even be called that) the problem.

Or are things fine as they are, with some classes having tradeoffs, while others tradeoffs are minimal, while others have none at all and perform like 5 of the core professions combined?Reaper is the spec that tradeoff and different playstyle thing started with. They designed the shroud as 100% melee and added an increased life force degeneration, so that you have a maximum shroud uptime of 20 seconds, even when nobody hits you. Core is the whole opposite. More sustain, higher shroud uptime and range, but less pressure.

Beating core and reaper requires a completely different approach.

Every other elite spec was just a flat buff to the core spec at the beginning and some still are, because anet seems to have more important things to do.

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

@Yasai.3549 said:

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:Holosmith loses the elite toolbelt skill. Reaper Shroud burns away twice as fast as regular shroud. Tempests get increased attunement cooldowns on overloads. Firebrand loses the instant-cast virtues for their books.

Firebrand has no trade offs, just mechanic alterations.I don't know how anyone can see 15 extra spells as a tradeoff.

Well, Imbued Haste should really have - instead of + when using a tome.

[Laila Lightness.8742]

@Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

@Yasai.3549 said:

@"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:Holosmith loses the elite toolbelt skill. Reaper Shroud burns away twice as fast as regular shroud. Tempests get increased attunement cooldowns on overloads. Firebrand loses the instant-cast virtues for their books.

Firebrand has no trade offs, just mechanic alterations.I don't know how anyone can see 15 extra spells as a tradeoff.

Well, Imbued Haste should really have - instead of + when using a tome.

Tomes should be changed to have a 10 dur like back then they were elite skills and 240cd . https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Tome_of_Courage_(elite_skill)

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:

@Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

@Yasai.3549 said:

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:Holosmith loses the elite toolbelt skill. Reaper Shroud burns away twice as fast as regular shroud. Tempests get increased attunement cooldowns on overloads. Firebrand loses the instant-cast virtues for their books.

Firebrand has no trade offs, just mechanic alterations.I don't know how anyone can see 15 extra spells as a tradeoff.

Well, Imbued Haste should really have - instead of + when using a tome.

Tomes should be changed to have a 10 dur like back then they were elite skills

That wouldn't change much though really, they'd still have access 15 extra skills to spam with zero reason to NOT take FB over an extra core trait line.

[Laila Lightness.8742]

@Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:

@Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

@Yasai.3549 said:

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:Holosmith loses the elite toolbelt skill. Reaper Shroud burns away twice as fast as regular shroud. Tempests get increased attunement cooldowns on overloads. Firebrand loses the instant-cast virtues for their books.

Firebrand has no trade offs, just mechanic alterations.I don't know how anyone can see 15 extra spells as a tradeoff.

Well, Imbued Haste should really have - instead of + when using a tome.

Tomes should be changed to have a 10 dur like back then they were elite skills

That wouldn't change much though really, they'd still have access 15 extra skills to spam with zero reason to NOT take FB over an extra core trait line.

Trade of they cant swap weapons and maybe not be able to use shouts and concentrations. Also old tomes as elitr was at same lvl as racials. Virtues are basicly signets. And they lose passive effect of virtues. I see especs as why should they use skills tied to core instead for being locked skills actually tied to their e spec. Like druid shouldnt have pet and spirits only glyphs as it was designed and intended to be a glyph user. Same with dh it was meant in design to use bow and traps

[HotDelirium.7984]

Mirage was allegedly going to get its own shatters so where are those?

If one dev spent months doing this last meta then they CAN assign one dev to work on all elites. They really should make that a priority over new content because we literally have to play said content from the gameplay.

[Svarty.8019]

@LaFurion.3167 said:When are the rest of elite spec trade offs?

Anet don't like to revisit existing content. They are design sharks, they have to move forwards.

[misterman.1530]

@"LaFurion.3167" said:For core necro, the shroud change was.... weird to me. Core shroud also takes you into close range, while reaper will always outshine it. There are zero situations in wvw pvp open world fractals or raids where core is better than reaper up close.

An example of a "good change", or at least what I would do, is to change core shroud to be ranged. The auto for shroud does more damage the farther away the enemy is. The 2 ability, while nice, needs looking at. With the update you just gave us the ability to choose when to go in, but it's like a quality of life loss for some reason. Shroud 5 hmm...its okay I guess but reaper is 10000xbetter.

In the past few weeks, since I've gone full Core Necro with Antitoxin runes, I have yet to lose a 1v1 vs a reaper. Note: I am not that good, it's just that the core necro is that powerful and difficult to kill.

[Zawn.9647]

where are herald/renegade drawbacks?DH/firebrand?reaper?holo?tempest?

[Mini Crinny.6190]

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:Trade of could be you cant use core skills only espec skill. And weaver is alot stronger than tempest. Holo has downsides like overheating is actually very dangerouse

I disagree, Tempest right now is alot stronger than Weaver

[Mini Crinny.6190]

@Zawn.9647 said:where are herald/renegade drawbacks?DH/firebrand?reaper?holo?tempest?

Overloads bro, Staying in attunement to get the overload and if a tempest doesn't overload, are you even playing tempest? Core ele is designed to switch between attunements, not camp one for a long time

Reaper shroud loses more life force than Core

Holo loses elite toolbelt skill

Dh and Firebrand are generally upgrades

[Zawn.9647]

@Mini Crinny.6190 said:

@"Zawn.9647" said:where are herald/renegade drawbacks?DH/firebrand?reaper?holo?tempest?

Overloads bro, Staying in attunement to get the overload and if a tempest doesn't overload, are you even playing tempest? Core ele is designed to switch between attunements, not camp one for a long time

Reaper shroud loses more life force than Core

Holo loses elite toolbelt skill

Dh and Firebrand are generally upgrades

tempest just needs to cast an overload for a couple seconds then it can switch again... lolholo can use every weapon and utility...reaper shroud in stronger than core

none of these seems a tradeoff compared to what soulbeast/druid/mirage and even Deadeye/Daredevil got

if you gonna say "its still a tradeoff" then you can count DH and Firebrand as tradeoffs as well using that same genious logic :)

[Laila Lightness.8742]

@Mini Crinny.6190 said:

@Zawn.9647 said:where are herald/renegade drawbacks?DH/firebrand?reaper?holo?tempest?

Overloads bro, Staying in attunement to get the overload and if a tempest doesn't overload, are you even playing tempest? Core ele is designed to switch between attunements, not camp one for a long time

Reaper shroud loses more life force than Core

Holo loses elite toolbelt skill

Dh and Firebrand are generally upgrades

dh is upgrade but firebrand loses the active effects like heal instant aegis and such but you dont get that on fb you must cast it so yeah you kinda give up. also its not like core guardian is useless its max dps is actually higher than dhs

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Berserker lost core F1s and takes a awful stat penalty in Berserk Mode. Can we get that stat penalty taken away now? kthnxbai. Otherwise there are several especs that need their own stat penalties in addition to the 'trade offs' that they have.

(full disclosure scrappers can also have their vitality back if they give berserker's their toughness back).

[Turkeyspit.3965]

I find it funny that players still don't understand what they are talking about when they use the word "tradeoff". They think it means the "take" part of "give and take", meant to suggest choosing between core and an elite specs is a choice. Such decisions would have been part of the original design for the elite specialization, but these "Tradeoffs" of course, weren't, at least for most of the elites being talked about.

Daredevil, Mirage, Scrapper, Soulbeast, just to name some examples, had their "tradeoffs" added in many years after the specialization was released...and that was done because they weren't "tradeoffs", they were just nerfs to the specialization that the developers coined as "tradeoffs".

So stop heating up your respective brains trying to find the logic in the illogical or design in the random. Whatever you think about trade offs, if they are good, bad, or nonexistent, remains irrelevant, as we are all at the mercy and whims of the ANET dev team in their attempts to balance / toss darts at the balance board.

Hey, remember when Scrapper had Detection Pulse? And then they didn't? And then they did again, only now it was for core, but nobody uses it since the utility it is now tied to isn't worth taking in the only game mode (WvW) where pulse is actually useful, and while Scrapper lost their F5 toolbelt, the revised Function Gyro F5 is far more useful than any toolbelt ability from an elite skill. Remember when Scrapper was meant to become a "tank" and gained the ability for Barrier, and all of a sudden the forums was in an uproar over Scrappers being unmovable from a PvP node? 7 months later the changes to Impact Savant reduced Scrapper vitality by 300, only to then see that reduction changed to 180 only three months afterward. A tradeoff built into the design? lol...sure, for a game in BETA testing maybe.

From the beginning, the difference between Core and Elite specs should have always been about synergy between 3 Core Traitlines, and swapping to 2 Core Traitlines + 1 Elite Tratilne should offer some benefit, but at a cost somewhere else. Sadly terribly designed traitlines that lack usefulness or synergy has always been one of the major failures in the design of this game, and so many elite specializations just became flat out upgrades vs. a third core traitline, and in most cases that I can think of, that remains the case, though what ANET went and did was just apply negatives downsides to other aspects of the spec.

Daredevils saw a nerf to Steal, Druids saw weaker pets while Soulbeasts lost the ability to swap pets in combat, etc. Nothing proves my point better than the great changes to Mirage, where the loss of 1 dodge occurs in competitive modes only . Tradeoff or nerf? Seems pretty obvious to me.

One of the main complaints about Soulbeasts in competitive modes was their ability to unload massive amounts of damage with a Ferocity pet, swap to Supportive pet like Own, and use their newly gained mobility skills to peel off. Yet after all that forum hand wringing, ANET comes out of the blue and announces Soulbeast's "tradeoff" would be the loss of pet swap in combat? And how is Core Ranger doing in PvE content again? Oh yeah, right. Another "tradeoff" that only seems to have an impact in competitive modes. Hmmmmm.

Please stop grinding your teeth over things you don't have any control over. If other professions or elites are doing better than yours, then either playe them, wait until yours gets buffed / the other is nerfed, or just behave like an adult and deal with the reality that complete balance in an MMO is impossible, has never happened, and will never happen, ESPECIALLY not from the folks at this studio.

But all these "gotcha" type posts made by players with a rudimentary understanding of the game are just tiresome.

[Sobx.1758]

@"Turkeyspit.3965" said:So stop heating up your respective brains trying to find the logic in the illogical or design in the random. Whatever you think about trade offs, if they are good, bad, or nonexistent, remains irrelevant, as we are all at the mercy and whims of the ANET dev team in their attempts to balance / toss darts at the balance board.

Is it so random though?

Implementing "tradeoffs" is just a way for the e-specs to not be direct upgrades over the core specs. And that doesn't mean they can't be stronger, because we know that's not exactly true -it just means that they can't be like core versions of the classes but obviously stronger because of the additional stats/mechanics/skills/whateverelse added.Due to the naming, it's mostly seen as some kind of "add 1, subtract 1" (hence "why does this espec gets this and this but only loses that?! NOT A TRADEOFF!"), but that's not the reason tradeoffs were added in the first palce.