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HoT = Dark Souls ? Casual Gamer perspective.


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@Asum.4960 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:yep, i have uninstalled again and went back to dcuo. pof was annoying too, but at least we got mounts. wont finish that either, it simply isnt worth the time and effort

you do realize, that they have NERFED core? and i certainly wont grind metas, so i can pay farmers for the good runes .if it isnt doable, with the gear i have, then i simply wont do it. THEY promised a game without gear grind

Sounds to me like you just don't really enjoy the game and refuse to engage with it to a point where you neither want to learn how to play it well, nor work for any gear - which is far from a grind in GW2, and have already moved on, which while fine, I'm not sure why you are still here complaining about it.

sure mr internet stranger , ill just let you decide what i like. and doing content, that i have done before, to get more gold IS grinding, no matter how you try andtwist it.

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@ruikarikun.9402 said:HoT = Dark Souls ? Yes if you are new to game and no if you spend some time to your build.

i know enough about dark souls to avoid it like the plague. i bought the expansion, because i wanted more like the core game.now i avoid them both, so there are similarities.and my build was good enough for core game, so hot is basically a DIFFERENT game. not a smart move for an EXPANSION

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@battledrone.8315 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:yep, i have uninstalled again and went back to dcuo. pof was annoying too, but at least we got mounts. wont finish that either, it simply isnt worth the time and effort

you do realize, that they have NERFED core? and i certainly wont grind metas, so i can pay farmers for the good runes .if it isnt doable, with the gear i have, then i simply wont do it. THEY promised a game without gear grind

Sounds to me like you just don't really enjoy the game and refuse to engage with it to a point where you neither want to learn how to play it well, nor work for any gear - which is far from a grind in GW2, and have already moved on, which while fine, I'm not sure why you are still here complaining about it.

sure mr internet stranger , ill just let you decide what i like. and doing content, that i have done before, to get more gold IS grinding, no matter how you try andtwist it.

I'm not deciding what you like or dislike nor am I trying to twist anything, I'm just going off by what you are saying. Fact is doing content more than once and content replayability to obtain things is a huge part of MMO's longevity. If you don't enjoy that at all and "having to" do something even just twice is already grind to you, then you are obviously not going to enjoy the vast majority of MMO's longterm, at least not any that I have ever played.

If GW2, which essentially showers it's players in gear and such compared to most other MMO's is still too grindy for you, the MMORPG genre (along with some others like ARPG's) might simply not be for you.

@battledrone.8315 said:

@ruikarikun.9402 said:HoT = Dark Souls ? Yes if you are new to game and no if you spend some time to your build.

i know enough about dark souls to avoid it like the plague. i bought the expansion, because i wanted more like the core game.now i avoid them both, so there are similarities.and my build was good enough for core game, so hot is basically a DIFFERENT game. not a smart move for an EXPANSION

Good Expansions (and sequels), imo, are supposed to evolve the game in some ways. If they are just the exact same old with a new coat of paint they are usually considered a failure and have pretty low longevity.Giving players the opportunity to adapt, evolve and improve with is a feature to keep players engaged, not a shortcoming.

Having the exact same difficulty, gameplay and build for 8 years would get extremely stale for the majority of players.

The fact that literally anything, even no build at all or just watching an NPC Pet while semi AFK, is good enough for the core game is imo one of the biggest issues and failures with that part of the game, and what is causing the unpreparedness for Expansion content in the first place.

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@battledrone.8315 said:

@ruikarikun.9402 said:HoT = Dark Souls ? Yes if you are new to game and no if you spend some time to your build.

i know enough about dark souls to avoid it like the plague. i bought the expansion, because i wanted more like the core game.now i avoid them both, so there are similarities.and my build was good enough for core game, so hot is basically a DIFFERENT game. not a smart move for an EXPANSION

A cat sleeping on the keyboard is good enough for core

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@Asum.4960 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:yep, i have uninstalled again and went back to dcuo. pof was annoying too, but at least we got mounts. wont finish that either, it simply isnt worth the time and effort

you do realize, that they have NERFED core? and i certainly wont grind metas, so i can pay farmers for the good runes .if it isnt doable, with the gear i have, then i simply wont do it. THEY promised a game without gear grind

Sounds to me like you just don't really enjoy the game and refuse to engage with it to a point where you neither want to learn how to play it well, nor work for any gear - which is far from a grind in GW2, and have already moved on, which while fine, I'm not sure why you are still here complaining about it.

sure mr internet stranger , ill just let you decide what i like. and doing content, that i have done before, to get more gold IS grinding, no matter how you try andtwist it.

I'm not deciding what you like or dislike nor am I trying to twist anything, I'm just going off by what you are saying. Fact is doing content more than once and content replayability to obtain things is a huge part of MMO's longevity. If you don't enjoy that at all and "having to" do something even just twice is already grind to you, then you are obviously not going to enjoy the vast majority of MMO's longterm, at least not any I have ever played.

If GW2, which essentially showers it's players in gear and such compared to most other MMO's is still too grindy for you, the MMORPG genre (along with some others like ARPG's) might simply not be for you.

i can grind if they give me something USEFUL for it. a 10 min daily mission in dcuo will give a lootbox with 2 choices of gear, with good chance of an actual UPGRADEi have done metas in hot, opening or vendoring a ton of trash loot is NOT the same, it is simply annoying. and you need a ton of bagspace for it too

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@battledrone.8315 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:yep, i have uninstalled again and went back to dcuo. pof was annoying too, but at least we got mounts. wont finish that either, it simply isnt worth the time and effort

you do realize, that they have NERFED core? and i certainly wont grind metas, so i can pay farmers for the good runes .if it isnt doable, with the gear i have, then i simply wont do it. THEY promised a game without gear grind

Sounds to me like you just don't really enjoy the game and refuse to engage with it to a point where you neither want to learn how to play it well, nor work for any gear - which is far from a grind in GW2, and have already moved on, which while fine, I'm not sure why you are still here complaining about it.

sure mr internet stranger , ill just let you decide what i like. and doing content, that i have done before, to get more gold IS grinding, no matter how you try andtwist it.

I'm not deciding what you like or dislike nor am I trying to twist anything, I'm just going off by what you are saying. Fact is doing content more than once and content replayability to obtain things is a huge part of MMO's longevity. If you don't enjoy that at all and "having to" do something even just twice is already grind to you, then you are obviously not going to enjoy the vast majority of MMO's longterm, at least not any I have ever played.

If GW2, which essentially showers it's players in gear and such compared to most other MMO's is still too grindy for you, the MMORPG genre (along with some others like ARPG's) might simply not be for you.

i can grind if they give me something USEFUL for it. a 10 min daily mission in dcuo will give a lootbox with 2 choices of gear, with good chance of an actual UPGRADEi have done metas in hot, opening or vendoring a ton of trash loot is NOT the same, it is simply annoying. and you need a ton of bagspace for it too

And a 10 minute daily in GW2 will give you 2g, for which you can buy exotic gear off the TP without any chance involved.

Nobody is saying you have to grind Metas specifically, I personally don't enjoy those either.

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@Nephalem.8921 said:

@ruikarikun.9402 said:HoT = Dark Souls ? Yes if you are new to game and no if you spend some time to your build.

i know enough about dark souls to avoid it like the plague. i bought the expansion, because i wanted more like the core game.now i avoid them both, so there are similarities.and my build was good enough for core game, so hot is basically a DIFFERENT game. not a smart move for an EXPANSION

A cat sleeping on the keyboard is good enough for core

okay, but cats dont have credit cards. core sold many million times. the expansions sold only a fraction of that. apparantly, they could do better, by designing the game for CATS instead

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@Asum.4960 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:yep, i have uninstalled again and went back to dcuo. pof was annoying too, but at least we got mounts. wont finish that either, it simply isnt worth the time and effort

you do realize, that they have NERFED core? and i certainly wont grind metas, so i can pay farmers for the good runes .if it isnt doable, with the gear i have, then i simply wont do it. THEY promised a game without gear grind

Sounds to me like you just don't really enjoy the game and refuse to engage with it to a point where you neither want to learn how to play it well, nor work for any gear - which is far from a grind in GW2, and have already moved on, which while fine, I'm not sure why you are still here complaining about it.

sure mr internet stranger , ill just let you decide what i like. and doing content, that i have done before, to get more gold IS grinding, no matter how you try andtwist it.

I'm not deciding what you like or dislike nor am I trying to twist anything, I'm just going off by what you are saying. Fact is doing content more than once and content replayability to obtain things is a huge part of MMO's longevity. If you don't enjoy that at all and "having to" do something even just twice is already grind to you, then you are obviously not going to enjoy the vast majority of MMO's longterm, at least not any I have ever played.

If GW2, which essentially showers it's players in gear and such compared to most other MMO's is still too grindy for you, the MMORPG genre (along with some others like ARPG's) might simply not be for you.

i can grind if they give me something USEFUL for it. a 10 min daily mission in dcuo will give a lootbox with 2 choices of gear, with good chance of an actual UPGRADEi have done metas in hot, opening or vendoring a ton of trash loot is NOT the same, it is simply annoying. and you need a ton of bagspace for it too

And a 10 minute daily in GW2 will give you 2g, for which you can buy exotic gear off the TP without any chance involved.

Nobody is saying you have to grind Metas specifically, I personally don't enjoy those either.

YOU can do it in 10 mins, i prolly cant do it at all. and i would have to it for months, since the most expensive parts are the runes and sigils.so we are talking about months of work, to play more content, that i dont like anyway.suddenly those dirty dishes look awfully tempting...yea, ill just do chores instead. the loot is better, and the fun factor is the same.

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@battledrone.8315 said:okay, but cats dont have credit cards. core sold many million times. the expansions sold only a fraction of that. apparantly, they could do better, by designing the game for CATS instead

Core sold well due to over-hype. How much revenue did core lose after a single quarter? This shows how many players -stayed- playing the game after they tried it (hint: not many compared to overall sales) The expansions sold really well considering how many players were left playing the game after trying the core game. But we've been through this in the past yet you keep on making uneducated claims.

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@Asum.4960 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:yep, i have uninstalled again and went back to dcuo. pof was annoying too, but at least we got mounts. wont finish that either, it simply isnt worth the time and effort

you do realize, that they have NERFED core? and i certainly wont grind metas, so i can pay farmers for the good runes .if it isnt doable, with the gear i have, then i simply wont do it. THEY promised a game without gear grind

Sounds to me like you just don't really enjoy the game and refuse to engage with it to a point where you neither want to learn how to play it well, nor work for any gear - which is far from a grind in GW2, and have already moved on, which while fine, I'm not sure why you are still here complaining about it.

sure mr internet stranger , ill just let you decide what i like. and doing content, that i have done before, to get more gold IS grinding, no matter how you try andtwist it.

I'm not deciding what you like or dislike nor am I trying to twist anything, I'm just going off by what you are saying. Fact is doing content more than once and content replayability to obtain things is a huge part of MMO's longevity. If you don't enjoy that at all and "having to" do something even just twice is already grind to you, then you are obviously not going to enjoy the vast majority of MMO's longterm, at least not any that I have ever played.

If GW2, which essentially showers it's players in gear and such compared to most other MMO's is still too grindy for you, the MMORPG genre (along with some others like ARPG's) might simply not be for you.

@"ruikarikun.9402" said:HoT = Dark Souls ? Yes if you are new to game and no if you spend some time to your build.

i know enough about dark souls to avoid it like the plague. i bought the expansion, because i wanted more like the core game.now i avoid them both, so there are similarities.and my build was good enough for core game, so hot is basically a DIFFERENT game. not a smart move for an EXPANSION

Good Expansions (and sequels), imo, are supposed to evolve the game in some ways. If they are just the exact same old with a new coat of paint they are usually considered a failure and have pretty low longevity.Giving players the opportunity to adapt, evolve and improve with is a feature to keep players engaged, not a shortcoming.

Having the exact same difficulty, gameplay and build for 8 years would get extremely stale for the majority of players.

The fact that literally anything, even no build at all or just watching an NPC Pet while semi AFK, is good enough for the core game is imo one of the biggest issues and failures with that part of the game, and what is causing the unpreparedness for Expansion content in the first place.

lets see , wow did exceptionally well, as long as they stuck to the formula. when they CHANGED it, the game went south.same with CoX, villain side was just more of the same. STOs "expansions" added new features and new races, while increasing difficulty slightly.dont know about FF, since i never made i past lvl 20. SWTOR expansions did have higher difficulty, but they also have increased level cap and other newfeatures to help the casuals.

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@battledrone.8315 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:yep, i have uninstalled again and went back to dcuo. pof was annoying too, but at least we got mounts. wont finish that either, it simply isnt worth the time and effort

you do realize, that they have NERFED core? and i certainly wont grind metas, so i can pay farmers for the good runes .if it isnt doable, with the gear i have, then i simply wont do it. THEY promised a game without gear grind

Sounds to me like you just don't really enjoy the game and refuse to engage with it to a point where you neither want to learn how to play it well, nor work for any gear - which is far from a grind in GW2, and have already moved on, which while fine, I'm not sure why you are still here complaining about it.

sure mr internet stranger , ill just let you decide what i like. and doing content, that i have done before, to get more gold IS grinding, no matter how you try andtwist it.

I'm not deciding what you like or dislike nor am I trying to twist anything, I'm just going off by what you are saying. Fact is doing content more than once and content replayability to obtain things is a huge part of MMO's longevity. If you don't enjoy that at all and "having to" do something even just twice is already grind to you, then you are obviously not going to enjoy the vast majority of MMO's longterm, at least not any that I have ever played.

If GW2, which essentially showers it's players in gear and such compared to most other MMO's is still too grindy for you, the MMORPG genre (along with some others like ARPG's) might simply not be for you.

@"ruikarikun.9402" said:HoT = Dark Souls ? Yes if you are new to game and no if you spend some time to your build.

i know enough about dark souls to avoid it like the plague. i bought the expansion, because i wanted more like the core game.now i avoid them both, so there are similarities.and my build was good enough for core game, so hot is basically a DIFFERENT game. not a smart move for an EXPANSION

Good Expansions (and sequels), imo, are supposed to evolve the game in some ways. If they are just the exact same old with a new coat of paint they are usually considered a failure and have pretty low longevity.Giving players the opportunity to adapt, evolve and improve with is a feature to keep players engaged, not a shortcoming.

Having the exact same difficulty, gameplay and build for 8 years would get extremely stale for the majority of players.

The fact that literally anything, even no build at all or just watching an NPC Pet while semi AFK, is good enough for the core game is imo one of the biggest issues and failures with that part of the game, and what is causing the unpreparedness for Expansion content in the first place.

lets see , wow did exceptionally well, as long as they stuck to the formula. when they CHANGED it, the game went south.same with CoX, villain side was just more of the same. STOs "expansions" added new features and new races, while increasing difficulty slightly.dont know about FF, since i never made i past lvl 20. SWTOR expansions did have higher difficulty, but they also have increased level cap and other newfeatures to help the casuals.

So you rather not adapt you could easly buy soldier gear with doylak runes hell i could give you a exotic set if you want to then i get home

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@battledrone.8315 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:yep, i have uninstalled again and went back to dcuo. pof was annoying too, but at least we got mounts. wont finish that either, it simply isnt worth the time and effort

you do realize, that they have NERFED core? and i certainly wont grind metas, so i can pay farmers for the good runes .if it isnt doable, with the gear i have, then i simply wont do it. THEY promised a game without gear grind

Sounds to me like you just don't really enjoy the game and refuse to engage with it to a point where you neither want to learn how to play it well, nor work for any gear - which is far from a grind in GW2, and have already moved on, which while fine, I'm not sure why you are still here complaining about it.

sure mr internet stranger , ill just let you decide what i like. and doing content, that i have done before, to get more gold IS grinding, no matter how you try andtwist it.

I'm not deciding what you like or dislike nor am I trying to twist anything, I'm just going off by what you are saying. Fact is doing content more than once and content replayability to obtain things is a huge part of MMO's longevity. If you don't enjoy that at all and "having to" do something even just twice is already grind to you, then you are obviously not going to enjoy the vast majority of MMO's longterm, at least not any I have ever played.

If GW2, which essentially showers it's players in gear and such compared to most other MMO's is still too grindy for you, the MMORPG genre (along with some others like ARPG's) might simply not be for you.

i can grind if they give me something USEFUL for it. a 10 min daily mission in dcuo will give a lootbox with 2 choices of gear, with good chance of an actual UPGRADEi have done metas in hot, opening or vendoring a ton of trash loot is NOT the same, it is simply annoying. and you need a ton of bagspace for it too

And a 10 minute daily in GW2 will give you 2g, for which you can buy exotic gear off the TP without any chance involved.

Nobody is saying you have to grind Metas specifically, I personally don't enjoy those either.

YOU can do it in 10 mins, i prolly cant do it at all. and i would have to it for months, since the most expensive parts are the runes and sigils.so we are talking about months of work, to play more content, that i dont like anyway.suddenly those dirty dishes look awfully tempting...yea, ill just do chores instead. the loot is better, and the fun factor is the same.

Again, it just seems like you are simply not really enjoying the game if it's just a chore for you/you would rather do actual chores. Not sure why you are saying I'm twisting anything with that statement.Once you obsess over rewards and what you have to do for how long to get x, it's a pretty clear sign that you are not enjoying a game for it's moment to moment gameplay and it's own sake, which is a pretty good indicator to take a break or move on.

But beyond that, not having the perfect Runes and Sigils is really not what's going to keep you from being able to complete OW (or any other) content and are overall fairly low impact beyond min maxing. So I'm not sure why their acquisition is such a sticking point.If you enjoy the game and have a good time and just keep playing it because it's fun, you will eventually be able to acquire these things.If you don't enjoy the game for it's own sake to even get there, getting certain Runes and Sigils won't fix that either anyway.

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@battledrone.8315 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:yep, i have uninstalled again and went back to dcuo. pof was annoying too, but at least we got mounts. wont finish that either, it simply isnt worth the time and effort

you do realize, that they have NERFED core? and i certainly wont grind metas, so i can pay farmers for the good runes .if it isnt doable, with the gear i have, then i simply wont do it. THEY promised a game without gear grind

Sounds to me like you just don't really enjoy the game and refuse to engage with it to a point where you neither want to learn how to play it well, nor work for any gear - which is far from a grind in GW2, and have already moved on, which while fine, I'm not sure why you are still here complaining about it.

sure mr internet stranger , ill just let you decide what i like. and doing content, that i have done before, to get more gold IS grinding, no matter how you try andtwist it.

I'm not deciding what you like or dislike nor am I trying to twist anything, I'm just going off by what you are saying. Fact is doing content more than once and content replayability to obtain things is a huge part of MMO's longevity. If you don't enjoy that at all and "having to" do something even just twice is already grind to you, then you are obviously not going to enjoy the vast majority of MMO's longterm, at least not any that I have ever played.

If GW2, which essentially showers it's players in gear and such compared to most other MMO's is still too grindy for you, the MMORPG genre (along with some others like ARPG's) might simply not be for you.

@"ruikarikun.9402" said:HoT = Dark Souls ? Yes if you are new to game and no if you spend some time to your build.

i know enough about dark souls to avoid it like the plague. i bought the expansion, because i wanted more like the core game.now i avoid them both, so there are similarities.and my build was good enough for core game, so hot is basically a DIFFERENT game. not a smart move for an EXPANSION

Good Expansions (and sequels), imo, are supposed to evolve the game in some ways. If they are just the exact same old with a new coat of paint they are usually considered a failure and have pretty low longevity.Giving players the opportunity to adapt, evolve and improve with is a feature to keep players engaged, not a shortcoming.

Having the exact same difficulty, gameplay and build for 8 years would get extremely stale for the majority of players.

The fact that literally anything, even no build at all or just watching an NPC Pet while semi AFK, is good enough for the core game is imo one of the biggest issues and failures with that part of the game, and what is causing the unpreparedness for Expansion content in the first place.

lets see , wow did exceptionally well, as long as they stuck to the formula. when they CHANGED it, the game went south.same with CoX, villain side was just more of the same. STOs "expansions" added new features and new races, while increasing difficulty slightly.dont know about FF, since i never made i past lvl 20. SWTOR expansions did have higher difficulty, but they also have increased level cap and other newfeatures to help the casuals.

You seem to dont get gw2 difficulty in core was extremely low you could go to orr as lvl 1 or 2 without effort it was hard to think the story was serius then every mob was so easy to kill. You dont need the meta build for ow those are for raids, fractals (higher tire pve) your problem is you play like you did in core probly not using any skills beyond auto

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@"battledrone.8315" said:

lets see , wow did exceptionally well, as long as they stuck to the formula. when they CHANGED it, the game went south.same with CoX, villain side was just more of the same. STOs "expansions" added new features and new races, while increasing difficulty slightly.dont know about FF, since i never made i past lvl 20. SWTOR expansions did have higher difficulty, but they also have increased level cap and other newfeatures to help the casuals.

Didnt lose wow so many players because they removed basically all build variety and tried to make it extremely casual friendly?Every expansion simplified things.Gw2 lost almost all players 2months into the game. Release was riddled with bugs. Every 2nd event was stuck and there was basically no endgame.

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@Nephalem.8921 said:

@"battledrone.8315" said:

lets see , wow did exceptionally well, as long as they stuck to the formula. when they CHANGED it, the game went south.same with CoX, villain side was just more of the same. STOs "expansions" added new features and new races, while increasing difficulty slightly.dont know about FF, since i never made i past lvl 20. SWTOR expansions did have higher difficulty, but they also have increased level cap and other newfeatures to help the casuals.

Didnt lose wow so many players because they removed basically all build variety and tried to make it extremely casual friendly?Every expansion simplified things.Gw2 lost almost all players 2months into the game. Release was riddled with bugs. Every 2nd event was stuck and there was basically no endgame.

It can't get more casual than WoW Vanilla/Classic.You are able to kill Onyxia with a completely naked Raidgroup using a hunter pet as tank.

WoW actually peaked with WotLK. There wasn't really build variety, since meta builds didn't really allow for it.

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@Nephalem.8921 said:

@"battledrone.8315" said:

lets see , wow did exceptionally well, as long as they stuck to the formula. when they CHANGED it, the game went south.same with CoX, villain side was just more of the same. STOs "expansions" added new features and new races, while increasing difficulty slightly.dont know about FF, since i never made i past lvl 20. SWTOR expansions did have higher difficulty, but they also have increased level cap and other newfeatures to help the casuals.

Didnt lose wow so many players because they removed basically all build variety and tried to make it extremely casual friendly?Every expansion simplified things.Gw2 lost almost all players 2months into the game. Release was riddled with bugs. Every 2nd event was stuck and there was basically no endgame.

Correct! As a result, the player base that remained were only those who could stomach a game in that state.

Along comes HoT with what probably should have been included in the initial release (specifically what could be considered some sort of endgame). Predictably, this strategy did not appeal to the type of player that could play a game for years with no endgame or even any sort of progression in difficulty.

As a player who never would have played the core game as it exists, I can't argue against that change. But I understand why core players may feel differently.

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@"battledrone.8315" said:lets see , wow did exceptionally well, as long as they stuck to the formula. when they CHANGED it, the game went south.same with CoX, villain side was just more of the same. STOs "expansions" added new features and new races, while increasing difficulty slightly.dont know about FF, since i never made i past lvl 20. SWTOR expansions did have higher difficulty, but they also have increased level cap and other newfeatures to help the casuals.As someone who has played a fair few MMOs and read your posts on and off on this forum for a while now....I do not believe that you are at all representative of the average casual gamer.Most of the ones I have played with or talked to struggle with this game a fair bit less than you claim to.

The fact that you on one hand talk about how grindy gearing in GW2 is, while consistently talking about playing DCUO, (a simple game with a very punishing end game gear grind that gates your progress behind gear score with endless dailies and rng drops) is.....odd.

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@Raknar.4735 said:

@"battledrone.8315" said:

lets see , wow did exceptionally well, as long as they stuck to the formula. when they CHANGED it, the game went south.same with CoX, villain side was just more of the same. STOs "expansions" added new features and new races, while increasing difficulty slightly.dont know about FF, since i never made i past lvl 20. SWTOR expansions did have higher difficulty, but they also have increased level cap and other newfeatures to help the casuals.

Didnt lose wow so many players because they removed basically all build variety and tried to make it extremely casual friendly?Every expansion simplified things.Gw2 lost almost all players 2months into the game. Release was riddled with bugs. Every 2nd event was stuck and there was basically no endgame.

It can't get more casual than WoW Vanilla/Classic.You are able to kill Onyxia with a completely naked Raidgroup using a hunter pet as tank.

WoW actually peaked with WotLK. There wasn't really build variety, since meta builds didn't really allow for it.

Required massive attunement processes to even enter that. 40man raids meant organizing those many people required a set schedule and everything, Dungeons could take 3h+ to complete. Wouldnt call that casual friendly. Raids were easy compared to todays standards but guide websites werent that common back then and time investment required was still huge.

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@Nephalem.8921 said:

@"battledrone.8315" said:

lets see , wow did exceptionally well, as long as they stuck to the formula. when they CHANGED it, the game went south.same with CoX, villain side was just more of the same. STOs "expansions" added new features and new races, while increasing difficulty slightly.dont know about FF, since i never made i past lvl 20. SWTOR expansions did have higher difficulty, but they also have increased level cap and other newfeatures to help the casuals.

Didnt lose wow so many players because they removed basically all build variety and tried to make it extremely casual friendly?Every expansion simplified things.Gw2 lost almost all players 2months into the game. Release was riddled with bugs. Every 2nd event was stuck and there was basically no endgame.

It can't get more casual than WoW Vanilla/Classic.You are able to kill Onyxia with a completely naked Raidgroup using a hunter pet as tank.

WoW actually peaked with WotLK. There wasn't really build variety, since meta builds didn't really allow for it.

Required massive attunement processes to even enter that. 40man raids meant organizing those many people required a set schedule and everything, Dungeons could take 3h+ to complete. Wouldnt call that casual friendly. Raids were easy compared to todays standards but guide websites werent that common back then and time investment required was still huge.

Most of those factors are not created by the game, but by the players.The vanilla raids are so easy that you don't even need the organization of 40man groups.Anything can take 3h+ to complete if players are bad, take a look at Arah during release, when players didn't skip and didn't get the game mechanics. I wouldn't call that casual friendly, either.

I'd call the Classic raids/dungeons way more casual friendly than anything that has been released in the last 10 years in terms of MMORPGs ¯\(ツ)/¯End game raiding (referring to mythic) in WoW nowadays is the least casual friendly it has ever been.

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@Raknar.4735 said:

@"battledrone.8315" said:

lets see , wow did exceptionally well, as long as they stuck to the formula. when they CHANGED it, the game went south.same with CoX, villain side was just more of the same. STOs "expansions" added new features and new races, while increasing difficulty slightly.dont know about FF, since i never made i past lvl 20. SWTOR expansions did have higher difficulty, but they also have increased level cap and other newfeatures to help the casuals.

Didnt lose wow so many players because they removed basically all build variety and tried to make it extremely casual friendly?Every expansion simplified things.Gw2 lost almost all players 2months into the game. Release was riddled with bugs. Every 2nd event was stuck and there was basically no endgame.

It can't get more casual than WoW Vanilla/Classic.You are able to kill Onyxia with a completely naked Raidgroup using a hunter pet as tank.

WoW actually peaked with WotLK. There wasn't really build variety, since meta builds didn't really allow for it.

Required massive attunement processes to even enter that. 40man raids meant organizing those many people required a set schedule and everything, Dungeons could take 3h+ to complete. Wouldnt call that casual friendly. Raids were easy compared to todays standards but guide websites werent that common back then and time investment required was still huge.

Most of those factors are not created by the game, but by the players.The vanilla raids are so easy that you don't even need the organization of 40man groups.Anything can take 3h+ to complete if players are bad, take a look at Arah during release, when players didn't skip and didn't get the game mechanics. I wouldn't call that casual friendly, either.

I'd call the Classic raids/dungeons way more casual friendly than anything that has been released in the last 10 years in terms of MMORPGs ¯\
(ツ)
/¯End game raiding (referring to mythic) in WoW nowadays is the least casual friendly it has ever been.

How is massive attunement process created by the players and not by the game? Or requireing 40people. Casual and easy have nothing in common. Something can be hard and casual friendly. Casual != bad player. This gets mixed up a lot. Just because someone cant spend 2h+ uninterrupted doesnt mean such a player is unable to learn or use a braindead open world build. There is however a crowd that identifies themselves as casuals but in reality just hate learning or thinking as a whole. There are people playing with whatever dropped for their characters while they have 1k+ h spend ingame. Thats just not a matter of casual or hardcore, they are just bad. Other mmos solved this issue with just not having bad drops. System in gw2 allows for the most useless combinations. Could potentially be solved with a gearcheck so you could at least try to give tips but there are still some players against it for some reason.

Almost nobody saw the last raid tier in classic. Thats why it was the first raid of wotlk. Wasted assets if below 1% even entered it. Way fewer actually killed bosses in there. Was crazy expensive to open it or it required a massive reputation grind. The dungeon i have in mind is just super long. 16bosses... people spend 4h+ in there without really wiping. it wasnt even a maxlevel dungeon. Mythic+ raiding is not the same as classic raiding. classic had just one difficulty and getting 40 players together was hard when a mistake made by a single person could wipe the entire raid.

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Maybe they could mention the increase in difficulty in HoT expansion content and add some tips and strategies in the new player guide, so players are aware before entering. Might also be useful to mention that mounts can be unlocked account wide by doing the PoF expansion content first.

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@"Atomos.7593" said:Maybe they could mention the increase in difficulty in HoT expansion content and add some tips and strategies in the new player guide, so players are aware before entering. Might also be useful to mention that mounts can be unlocked account wide by doing the PoF expansion content first.

What they should have done IMO:

Create kind of a Pact "boot camp" for jungle warfare in Silverwastes that players have to pass before they are allowed to enter VB (possibly as part of the personal story):

"Commander, we have managed to capture some Mordrem and wildlife from the Maguuma jungle. We use them to familiarize our troops with the threads that await us there." Players would then get pitched into 1-on-1 fights against some typical Maguuma opponents, for instance:

  • fight a Mordrem sniper without getting hit by his charged shot
  • fight a rolling devil by breaking its defiance bar
  • fight a smokescale where they have to move out of the smoke screen
  • fight a Mordrem cavalier without getting knocked down, etc ...

But of course it's much too late for that now. I guess the best one can do now to accustom oneself to the difficulty increase is something like:-> play a bit in Orr-> play at least a couple of days in SW (non-RIBA), gives you a bit of foretaste of what to expect in HoT-> VB

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@mindcircus.1506 said:

@"battledrone.8315" said:lets see , wow did exceptionally well, as long as they stuck to the formula. when they CHANGED it, the game went south.same with CoX, villain side was just more of the same. STOs "expansions" added new features and new races, while increasing difficulty slightly.dont know about FF, since i never made i past lvl 20. SWTOR expansions did have higher difficulty, but they also have increased level cap and other newfeatures to help the casuals.As someone who has played a fair few MMOs and read your posts on and off on this forum for a while now....I do not believe that you are at all representative of the average casual gamer.Most of the ones I have played with or talked to struggle with this game a fair bit less than you claim to.

The fact that you on one hand talk about how grindy gearing in GW2 is, while consistently talking about playing DCUO, (a simple game with a very punishing end game gear grind that gates your progress behind gear score with endless dailies and rng drops) is.....odd.

dcuo is a pretty standard mmo, and they dont claim to be anything elseGW2 was SOLD with the PROMISE of a no grind policy. if you dont see the problem there...furthermore, dcuo dont let the players control the flow of important items, like runes and weapon enhancementsif i want to progress, i literally have to pay a GOLD FARMER. not gonna happen

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@Laila Lightness.8742 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:yep, i have uninstalled again and went back to dcuo. pof was annoying too, but at least we got mounts. wont finish that either, it simply isnt worth the time and effort

you do realize, that they have NERFED core? and i certainly wont grind metas, so i can pay farmers for the good runes .if it isnt doable, with the gear i have, then i simply wont do it. THEY promised a game without gear grind

Sounds to me like you just don't really enjoy the game and refuse to engage with it to a point where you neither want to learn how to play it well, nor work for any gear - which is far from a grind in GW2, and have already moved on, which while fine, I'm not sure why you are still here complaining about it.

sure mr internet stranger , ill just let you decide what i like. and doing content, that i have done before, to get more gold IS grinding, no matter how you try andtwist it.

I'm not deciding what you like or dislike nor am I trying to twist anything, I'm just going off by what you are saying. Fact is doing content more than once and content replayability to obtain things is a huge part of MMO's longevity. If you don't enjoy that at all and "having to" do something even just twice is already grind to you, then you are obviously not going to enjoy the vast majority of MMO's longterm, at least not any that I have ever played.

If GW2, which essentially showers it's players in gear and such compared to most other MMO's is still too grindy for you, the MMORPG genre (along with some others like ARPG's) might simply not be for you.

@"ruikarikun.9402" said:HoT = Dark Souls ? Yes if you are new to game and no if you spend some time to your build.

i know enough about dark souls to avoid it like the plague. i bought the expansion, because i wanted more like the core game.now i avoid them both, so there are similarities.and my build was good enough for core game, so hot is basically a DIFFERENT game. not a smart move for an EXPANSION

Good Expansions (and sequels), imo, are supposed to evolve the game in some ways. If they are just the exact same old with a new coat of paint they are usually considered a failure and have pretty low longevity.Giving players the opportunity to adapt, evolve and improve with is a feature to keep players engaged, not a shortcoming.

Having the exact same difficulty, gameplay and build for 8 years would get extremely stale for the majority of players.

The fact that literally anything, even no build at all or just watching an NPC Pet while semi AFK, is good enough for the core game is imo one of the biggest issues and failures with that part of the game, and what is causing the unpreparedness for Expansion content in the first place.

lets see , wow did exceptionally well, as long as they stuck to the formula. when they CHANGED it, the game went south.same with CoX, villain side was just more of the same. STOs "expansions" added new features and new races, while increasing difficulty slightly.dont know about FF, since i never made i past lvl 20. SWTOR expansions did have higher difficulty, but they also have increased level cap and other newfeatures to help the casuals.

You seem to dont get gw2 difficulty in core was extremely low you could go to orr as lvl 1 or 2 without effort it was hard to think the story was serius then every mob was so easy to kill. You dont need the meta build for ow those are for raids, fractals (higher tire pve) your problem is you play like you did in core probly not using any skills beyond auto

if it really was so low, i doubt they would had nerfed it TWICE now. yes, a few people could prolly do it, when it was harder, but A FEW is notsomething you can build a business on. specially not an mmo, they literally need every player, they can find

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