Time to bring down the Nerf hammer on guardian

[Aeolus.3615]

Remove most burn core traits(improve support and power specs), add burn on FB condi cleanse with block from its healing.

Make next Holy fire Sword sword elite spec builded to burn targets and empower from burn on hitsellf.

[draxynnic.3719]

@Aeolus.3615 said:Remove most burn core traits(improve support and power specs), add burn on FB condi cleanse with block from its healing.

Make next Holy fire Sword sword elite spec builded to burn targets and empower from burn on hitsellf.

Every other profession can go condi just off what's available in core, although warrior is still fairly light on options. And even condi builds that use elite specialisations usually work with core traits.

It's actually somewhat interesting that in some formats core burn guard outperforms condi firebrand, but I don't think it's a bad thing that there's a core build that outperforms the elite.

[otto.5684]

@Aeolus.3615 said:Remove most burn core traits(improve support and power specs), add burn on FB condi cleanse with block from its healing.

Make next Holy fire Sword sword elite spec builded to burn targets and empower from burn on hitsellf.

Why should not core guardian be somewhat good? It is not even the meta build in any game mode. Burn on condi cleanse? This is just dumb.. and does not even workin PvE.

[Aeolus.3615]

@otto.5684 said:

@Aeolus.3615 said:Remove most burn core traits(improve support and power specs), add burn on FB condi cleanse with block from its healing.

Make next Holy fire Sword sword elite spec builded to burn targets and empower from burn on hitsellf.

Why should not core guardian be somewhat good? It is not even the meta build in any game mode. Burn on condi cleanse? This is just dumb.. and does not even workin PvE.

i totally forgot pve exist xD, wvw is my pve.

Burn is to strong in small scale combat(i can reach over 4k-8k+ instant burns on targets, son some builds no mater how many cleanses target has i can perma put 1k-2k burn ticks over and over and over anemy will get on cleanse heavy cooldown and i just keep spamming towards the high burn bursts), rather than nerf burns, just remove the burn traits that are making burn guard a dumb gimmick.Conditions should not burst, imo burn is the only that is overperforming atm.

But a good way to balance it would be make frost auras reduce burn damage, and fire auras reduce chill effect :) that way the active gameplay will be more fun IMO.

[draxynnic.3719]

@Aeolus.3615 said:

@otto.5684 said:

@Aeolus.3615 said:Remove most burn core traits(improve support and power specs), add burn on FB condi cleanse with block from its healing.

Make next Holy fire Sword sword elite spec builded to burn targets and empower from burn on hitsellf.

Why should not core guardian be somewhat good? It is not even the meta build in any game mode. Burn on condi cleanse? This is just dumb.. and does not even workin PvE.

i totally forgot pve exist xD, wvw is my pve.

Burn is to strong in small scale combat(i can reach over 4k-8k+ instant burns on targets, son some builds no mater how many cleanses target has i can perma put 1k-2k burn ticks over and over and over anemy will get on cleanse heavy cooldown and i just keep spamming towards the high burn bursts), rather than nerf burns, just remove the burn traits that are making burn guard a dumb gimmick.Conditions should not burst, imo burn is the only that is overperforming atm.

But a good way to balance it would be make frost auras reduce burn damage, and fire auras reduce chill effect :) that way the active gameplay will be more fun IMO.

You're proposing overhauling about half a dozen core traits (just including traits that either generate or enhance burning, not including traits that trigger on hitting burning targets but don't actually increase the potency of the burning) and completely removing non-firebrand condition guardian builds from all modes of the game (and probably substantially handicapping firebrands as well) for something that might be a problem in one or two which could be handled by splits. Overhauling that many traits at once tends to create an unstable balance situation since when that many traits are overhauled at once ArenaNet has a tendency to either significantly overshoot or undershoot on the resulting power level (look at revenants after the Corruption and Devastation reworks, for instance). Even if one was to consider burn guardian to be overperforming compared to other condition builds (which I'm not convinced of - my experience fighting them in sPvP is that they're scary if you've underestimated them, but if you're suitably prepared you can usually deal with them, and they can be particularly vulnerable to throwing their own burns back in their face through condi transfers) your proposal would be throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

[Sylari.9814]

@Shiyo.3578 said:This is memey to say, but every other class needs to be buffed to guardians level. Ranger and engineer are almost there but the rest are far, far, far behind. Warrior was getting there but now is bad in PvP - ele was there early HOT/early vanilla but then they gutted it in every game mode and is now very unfun.

It really does sound kind of meme-y but the more I play the more I think it's true. Most classes are so used to having like, one actual build or sometimes not having a good way to play in a certain game mode at all.

Honestly it's kind of a travesty how many weapons, traits and utility skill combos Anet has basically just given up on for so many professions.

[Aeolus.3615]

@draxynnic.3719 said:

@Aeolus.3615 said:

@otto.5684 said:

@Aeolus.3615 said:Remove most burn core traits(improve support and power specs), add burn on FB condi cleanse with block from its healing.

Make next Holy fire Sword sword elite spec builded to burn targets and empower from burn on hitsellf.

Why should not core guardian be somewhat good? It is not even the meta build in any game mode. Burn on condi cleanse? This is just dumb.. and does not even workin PvE.

i totally forgot pve exist xD, wvw is my pve.

Burn is to strong in small scale combat(i can reach over 4k-8k+ instant burns on targets, son some builds no mater how many cleanses target has i can perma put 1k-2k burn ticks over and over and over anemy will get on cleanse heavy cooldown and i just keep spamming towards the high burn bursts), rather than nerf burns, just remove the burn traits that are making burn guard a dumb gimmick.Conditions should not burst, imo burn is the only that is overperforming atm.

But a good way to balance it would be make frost auras reduce burn damage, and fire auras reduce chill effect :) that way the active gameplay will be more fun IMO.

You're proposing overhauling about half a dozen core traits (just including traits that either generate or enhance burning, not including traits that trigger on hitting burning targets but don't actually increase the potency of the burning) and completely removing non-firebrand condition guardian builds from all modes of the game (and probably substantially handicapping firebrands as well) for something that

might

be a problem in one or two which could be handled by splits. Overhauling that many traits at once tends to create an unstable balance situation since when that many traits are overhauled at once ArenaNet has a tendency to either significantly overshoot or undershoot on the resulting power level (look at revenants after the Corruption and Devastation reworks, for instance). Even if one was to consider burn guardian to be overperforming compared to other condition builds (which I'm not convinced of - my experience fighting them in sPvP is that they're scary if you've underestimated them, but if you're suitably prepared you can usually deal with them, and they can be particularly vulnerable to throwing their own burns back in their face through condi transfers) your proposal would be throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

It needs to be toned down, burn stacks are easilly to stack and burst, Anet said condi should not burst and atm burn is bursting :).I can easilly ouput 4k-8k instant burn ticks on targets..., burn is the reason why many players think conditions are OP atm, its overperforming.

I did not said completelly remove burn from core, that just u overreating cause ur playing as well a burnguard... yeah ur being carried, just like i were using condy malyx builds and burnguard, and all the heavy condi burn players :).Radiance, virtues some meditations, and torch skills are the only core needs everything else in the traits need to be sracped.-

Remove burn/condi traits from zeal, merge kindle zeal with some FB trait.Remove burn from eternal armory (make it core on the skill itself by just 1-2 sec burn on all Spritit weapons not only sword and hammer)

WvW damage output in condi is completelly diferent from spvp due stats u should know that by now already.

Note: nerf m8 be a heavy word for the what the guardian needs, its more like a sfift on some overtuned stuf towards some elite spec.

[draxynnic.3719]

@Aeolus.3615 said:

@draxynnic.3719 said:

@Aeolus.3615 said:

@otto.5684 said:

@Aeolus.3615 said:Remove most burn core traits(improve support and power specs), add burn on FB condi cleanse with block from its healing.

Make next Holy fire Sword sword elite spec builded to burn targets and empower from burn on hitsellf.

Why should not core guardian be somewhat good? It is not even the meta build in any game mode. Burn on condi cleanse? This is just dumb.. and does not even workin PvE.

i totally forgot pve exist xD, wvw is my pve.

Burn is to strong in small scale combat(i can reach over 4k-8k+ instant burns on targets, son some builds no mater how many cleanses target has i can perma put 1k-2k burn ticks over and over and over anemy will get on cleanse heavy cooldown and i just keep spamming towards the high burn bursts), rather than nerf burns, just remove the burn traits that are making burn guard a dumb gimmick.Conditions should not burst, imo burn is the only that is overperforming atm.

But a good way to balance it would be make frost auras reduce burn damage, and fire auras reduce chill effect :) that way the active gameplay will be more fun IMO.

You're proposing overhauling about half a dozen core traits (just including traits that either generate or enhance burning, not including traits that trigger on hitting burning targets but don't actually increase the potency of the burning) and completely removing non-firebrand condition guardian builds from all modes of the game (and probably substantially handicapping firebrands as well) for something that

might

be a problem in one or two which could be handled by splits. Overhauling that many traits at once tends to create an unstable balance situation since when that many traits are overhauled at once ArenaNet has a tendency to either significantly overshoot or undershoot on the resulting power level (look at revenants after the Corruption and Devastation reworks, for instance). Even if one was to consider burn guardian to be overperforming compared to other condition builds (which I'm not convinced of - my experience fighting them in sPvP is that they're scary if you've underestimated them, but if you're suitably prepared you can usually deal with them, and they can be particularly vulnerable to throwing their own burns back in their face through condi transfers) your proposal would be throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

It needs to be toned down, burn stacks are easilly to stack and burst, Anet said condi should not burst and atm burn is bursting :).I can easilly ouput 4k-8k instant burn ticks on targets..., burn is the reason why many players think conditions are OP atm, its overperforming.

I did not said completelly remove burn from core, that just u overreating cause ur playing as well a burnguard... yeah ur being carried, just like i were using condy malyx builds and burnguard, and all the heavy condi burn players :).Radiance, virtues some meditations, and torch skills are the only core needs everything else in the traits need to be sracped.-

Remove burn/condi traits from zeal, merge kindle zeal with some FB trait.Remove burn from eternal armory (make it core on the skill itself by just 1-2 sec burn on all Spritit weapons not only sword and hammer)

WvW damage output in condi is completelly diferent from spvp due stats u should know that by now already.

Note: nerf m8 be a heavy word for the what the guardian needs, its more like a sfift on some overtuned stuf towards some elite spec.

Nice attempt at ad hominem. I've never played burn guard in a competitive mode, just played against them. Haven't played guardian in competitive at all in the last few seasons, in fact.

Never found a burn guardian to be more problematic than other condi builds unless I'm playing a build that I'd expect to be soft countered by a burn guardian.

It's possible that it could do with being toned down... but you're not promoting tweaking a few numbers. You're promoting a major overhaul to a profession that is one of the most functional professions in the game and which seems to be being left behind by the top players (again) from what I've heard of the recent tournament (I forget the name - not the Kormir AT, the volunteer-organised one). As I commented, such overhauls tend to have unpredictable results on the profession's balance (as we're seeing with revenant, and which we've been seeing more often than not with mesmer) and such measures should be reserved for deeper structural problems than "the burst damage might be a bit high in competitive modes".

[Aeolus.3615]

@draxynnic.3719 said:

@Aeolus.3615 said:

@draxynnic.3719 said:

@Aeolus.3615 said:

@otto.5684 said:

@Aeolus.3615 said:Remove most burn core traits(improve support and power specs), add burn on FB condi cleanse with block from its healing.

Make next Holy fire Sword sword elite spec builded to burn targets and empower from burn on hitsellf.

Why should not core guardian be somewhat good? It is not even the meta build in any game mode. Burn on condi cleanse? This is just dumb.. and does not even workin PvE.

i totally forgot pve exist xD, wvw is my pve.

Burn is to strong in small scale combat(i can reach over 4k-8k+ instant burns on targets, son some builds no mater how many cleanses target has i can perma put 1k-2k burn ticks over and over and over anemy will get on cleanse heavy cooldown and i just keep spamming towards the high burn bursts), rather than nerf burns, just remove the burn traits that are making burn guard a dumb gimmick.Conditions should not burst, imo burn is the only that is overperforming atm.

But a good way to balance it would be make frost auras reduce burn damage, and fire auras reduce chill effect :) that way the active gameplay will be more fun IMO.

You're proposing overhauling about half a dozen core traits (just including traits that either generate or enhance burning, not including traits that trigger on hitting burning targets but don't actually increase the potency of the burning) and completely removing non-firebrand condition guardian builds from all modes of the game (and probably substantially handicapping firebrands as well) for something that

might

be a problem in one or two which could be handled by splits. Overhauling that many traits at once tends to create an unstable balance situation since when that many traits are overhauled at once ArenaNet has a tendency to either significantly overshoot or undershoot on the resulting power level (look at revenants after the Corruption and Devastation reworks, for instance). Even if one was to consider burn guardian to be overperforming compared to other condition builds (which I'm not convinced of - my experience fighting them in sPvP is that they're scary if you've underestimated them, but if you're suitably prepared you can usually deal with them, and they can be particularly vulnerable to throwing their own burns back in their face through condi transfers) your proposal would be throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

It needs to be toned down, burn stacks are easilly to stack and burst, Anet said condi should not burst and atm burn is bursting :).I can easilly ouput 4k-8k instant burn ticks on targets..., burn is the reason why many players think conditions are OP atm, its overperforming.

I did not said completelly remove burn from core, that just u overreating cause ur playing as well a burnguard... yeah ur being carried, just like i were using condy malyx builds and burnguard, and all the heavy condi burn players :).Radiance, virtues some meditations, and torch skills are the only core needs everything else in the traits need to be sracped.-

Remove burn/condi traits from zeal, merge kindle zeal with some FB trait.Remove burn from eternal armory (make it core on the skill itself by just 1-2 sec burn on all Spritit weapons not only sword and hammer)

WvW damage output in condi is completelly diferent from spvp due stats u should know that by now already.

Note: nerf m8 be a heavy word for the what the guardian needs, its more like a sfift on some overtuned stuf towards some elite spec.

Nice attempt at ad hominem. I've never played burn guard in a competitive mode, just played against them. Haven't played guardian in competitive at all in the last few seasons, in fact.

Never found a burn guardian to be more problematic than other condi builds unless I'm playing a build that I'd expect to be soft countered by a burn guardian.

It's possible that it could do with being toned down... but you're not promoting tweaking a few numbers. You're promoting a major overhaul to a profession that is one of the most functional professions in the game and which seems to be being left behind by the top players (again) from what I've heard of the recent tournament (I forget the name - not the Kormir AT, the volunteer-organised one). As I commented, such overhauls tend to have unpredictable results on the profession's balance (as we're seeing with revenant, and which we've been seeing more often than not with mesmer) and such measures should be reserved for deeper structural problems than "the burst damage might be a bit high in competitive modes".

Damage output values on WvW small scale =/= spvp.1vs1 are not a good way to measure balance.

Bue yeah promoting a possible overhaul, i assume next guardian elite will be based on mobile burn guard based combat.Core guard has really some very strong ability to burst with condi, and condis should not behave like this, condi bunkers with bunkerish healers and support combo on wvw is actually a bit broken due how conditions can overwhelm targets, and how burn is overperforming, its a cleanse that m8 never happen unless u can wipe every condi every 2-3 sec at minimal.

U should laught at how many scrappers we have to run and every 1 needs to run several condi cleanses, due how much bunker condi builds and healer other teams are runing.WvW atm is use resistance on myself go to the midle of the zerg, u take no melee damage cause every one is ministrels or heavy condi stat only, u stay there /dance for a few secs, use heal and some more resistance, type dance again for a few seconds and then u can walk away from the zerg that wont kill u from melee nor phisical damage.

I dont want to be ending runing tons of perma resistance builds just because people know and expect to get carried with condi bursts situations.People are already raging against condi rev cause they cant kill them with condi :\

[draxynnic.3719]

Personally, I'd say that while balance is usually calibrated for around 3-10, with a bit of smaller scale since 1v1s do happen in every mode, balancing for 1v1 makes a lot more sense than trying to balance zerg versus zerg.

ZvZ is inherently an environment where things go a little crazy, and if you play that mode you should expect it. It's massive amounts of area damage and CCs while supports (whether condi cleansing, stability, or straight heals) try to keep up so your zerg lasts longer than the enemy's. It's an environment where single target damage is often virtually pointless, as is any form of active defence that only stops a set number of attacks.

ArenaNet might tone down the worst offenders, but there's a very real degree to which expecting finely tuned balance in a mode where the environment is so much different to the rest of the game and where the deciding factor is often simply 'who has more people' is a little futile. Maybe if the game was designed around mass combat, but it's not - mass combat is just a fun aside to a game mostly balanced around groups of five or ten. Reworking an entire profession, something which is likely to throw the balance into chaos in all modes, to solve a problem that only exists in zerg versus zerg would be putting the cart before the horse.

Maybe Permeating Wrath could get a WvW-specific nerf, but hey, you've already identified a counter. Stack resistance and enough condi clears that you don't immediately explode the moment you lose resistance. At some point, somebody's probably going to have the idea that if everyone's focusing on protecting against conditions, then a power-heavy composition that also has lots of resistance might be worth trying. But as you describe it, if condi guard got deleted tomorrow, people would probably just find the next best area condition profession to stack and use that.

[Ryou.2398]

@Tyse the Black.6789 said:Guardian (core, dragonhunter and firebrand) has been meta defining for too long. Most automated tournament teams have 2-3 guardians and guardian is why the super boring WvW pirateship meta works so well. Too much aegis spam (sometimes without having a to even press anything) is a common theme in all 3 iterations and too much block chain when considered alongside the highly mobile burst potential (of both power and Condi). The arguments for guardian being so OP for a long time have been so that it checks a bunch of different builds, most of which have now been culled. It's guardians turn

Instead of promoting nerfs on classes you need to focus on buffing other classes, it saids allot about you as a person when you come into a class post and only focusing on one issue with one class, you only care your getting whopped by gaurdians in wvw you clearly do not care enough about balance to have an objective and constructive perspective in the first place.

[draxynnic.3719]

@Ryou.2398 said:

@Tyse the Black.6789 said:Guardian (core, dragonhunter and firebrand) has been meta defining for too long. Most automated tournament teams have 2-3 guardians and guardian is why the super boring WvW pirateship meta works so well. Too much aegis spam (sometimes without having a to even press anything) is a common theme in all 3 iterations and too much block chain when considered alongside the highly mobile burst potential (of both power and Condi). The arguments for guardian being so OP for a long time have been so that it checks a bunch of different builds, most of which have now been culled. It's guardians turn

Instead of promoting nerfs on classes you need to focus on buffing other classes, it saids allot about you as a person when you come into a class post and only focusing on one issue with one class, you only care your getting whopped by gaurdians in wvw you clearly do not care enough about balance to have an objective and constructive perspective in the first place.

To be fair, he mentions sPvP circumstances as well... although to be accurate, guardians have now fallen out of the sPvP meta, even if several guardian builds are still fairly solid.

WvW zergfights are... well, zergfights are something the game allows in a specific mode but isn't really designed for. ArenaNet takes it into account, but having too many design decisions based on zergfights would be letting the tail wag the dog.

[Josiah.2967]

Core Guardian is technically better than anything Necromancer has access to. The other specs being better than Core just show what is wrong. If anything we should nerf the other specs closer to core level. Make the trade-off meaningful.

[draxynnic.3719]

@Josiah.2967 said:Core Guardian is technically better than anything Necromancer has access to.

I find that difficult to believe. Core guardian can outDPS power reaper in raid scenarios, but that's because the design of reaper is to be fairly self-sufficient in terms of boons, vulnerability application, crit chance, and so on. Which means it will often do better running solo, or in smaller-scale content like sPvP (currently, both power reaper and core carrion necro are considered to be meta while there are no guardian builds, core or otherwise, that are considered such, although there are still several guardian builds that do well enough - after all, a build being 'meta' usually means it's actually a bit OP), but doesn't benefit as much from team environments because it's already got the stuff that the team would normally supply, and has lower base damage to balance how much might, vulnerability, crit chance, and now quickness it can give itself. Guardian really shines in group content where, depending on build, it can either throw out a lot of boons or selfishly accept a lot of boons to boost its damage, but it isn't as good at getting high damage solo as necromancer and herald can.

Depends on your priorities, really. Necromancer certainly needs a bit of help in high-end group PvE, but it's somewhat difficult to see how to do that without supercharging it in playing solo: vulnerability and selfishly applying boons to itself is in so much of its core kit. Maybe the answer is to enforce splits in competitive mode and just not care if necro ends up becoming the king of solo PvE. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[Laila Lightness.8742]

Why not do something new instead of nerf fix the issue of other classes not able to keep up . If a class is underperforming(non meta a meta build is a tested build for a purpose it basicly is optimal build for it other wise it would not be meta) so why not fix the fact that some underperforms

[draxynnic.3719]

Heck, for the high-end PvE content, the nerf to Feel my Wrath seems to have already had a significant impact. There's now only three raid bosses that Snowcrows recommends stacking guardians on - Sabetha, Deimos, and Conjured Amalgamate. The other raid bosses they used to dominate on, they've been partially or entirely replaced by holos, soulbeasts, and in Samarog's case, mass power daredevils.

Meanwhile, as previously noted, guardian has gone back to being "decent but not meta" in Conquest. Not seeing too many in 2v2 either.

At this point, the only mode where Guardian is really dominant is WvW zergs, and that's never going to be a finely-tuned balance environment. Because of how important Stability is in that environment, the only thing that will knock guardian off its throne is some other profession being better at mass Stability, and then you'd just trade guardian for the new Stability bot.

So... mission accomplished, pretty much?

[Josiah.2967]

@draxynnic.3719 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:Core Guardian is technically better than anything Necromancer has access to.

I find that difficult to believe. Core guardian can outDPS power reaper in raid scenarios, but that's because the design of reaper is to be fairly self-sufficient in terms of boons, vulnerability application, crit chance, and so on. Which means it will often do better running solo, or in smaller-scale content like sPvP (currently, both power reaper and core carrion necro are considered to be meta while there are no guardian builds, core or otherwise, that are considered such, although there are still several guardian builds that do well enough - after all, a build being 'meta' usually means it's actually a bit OP), but doesn't benefit as much from team environments because it's already got the stuff that the team would normally supply, and has lower base damage to balance how much might, vulnerability, crit chance, and now quickness it can give itself. Guardian really shines in group content where, depending on build, it can either throw out a lot of boons or selfishly accept a lot of boons to boost its damage, but it isn't as good at getting high damage

solo

as necromancer and herald can.

Depends on your priorities, really. Necromancer certainly needs a bit of help in high-end group PvE, but it's somewhat difficult to see how to do that without supercharging it in playing solo: vulnerability and selfishly applying boons to itself is in so much of its core kit. Maybe the answer is to enforce splits in competitive mode and just not care if necro ends up becoming the king of solo PvE. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

I'm just going off of the raid sites and what I have seen. I usually use DH in raids. I just can not get into FB.

As far as the delima I keep hearing... There seems to be two easy options that people want to ignore:1.) Above Crit Cap Gives Power (They will not have the buffs to take advantages of this outside of a group).2.) Give them a damage modifier when mobs have a corruption they can not apply themselves. It would be interesting if a Reaper got an additional boost if something was burning?

I believe Guardian needs a nerf. They are one of the key components to allow you to bypass raid mechanics. I honestly believe Guardians do to much damage while provided important buffs. I think buff classes should do less damage than non-buff classes to be balanced.

[draxynnic.3719]

@Josiah.2967 said:

@draxynnic.3719 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:Core Guardian is technically better than anything Necromancer has access to.

I find that difficult to believe. Core guardian can outDPS power reaper in raid scenarios, but that's because the design of reaper is to be fairly self-sufficient in terms of boons, vulnerability application, crit chance, and so on. Which means it will often do better running solo, or in smaller-scale content like sPvP (currently, both power reaper and core carrion necro are considered to be meta while there are no guardian builds, core or otherwise, that are considered such, although there are still several guardian builds that do well enough - after all, a build being 'meta' usually means it's actually a bit OP), but doesn't benefit as much from team environments because it's already got the stuff that the team would normally supply, and has lower base damage to balance how much might, vulnerability, crit chance, and now quickness it can give itself. Guardian really shines in group content where, depending on build, it can either throw out a lot of boons or selfishly accept a lot of boons to boost its damage, but it isn't as good at getting high damage

solo

as necromancer and herald can.

Depends on your priorities, really. Necromancer certainly needs a bit of help in high-end group PvE, but it's somewhat difficult to see how to do that without supercharging it in playing solo: vulnerability and selfishly applying boons to itself is in so much of its core kit. Maybe the answer is to enforce splits in competitive mode and just not care if necro ends up becoming the king of solo PvE. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

I'm just going off of the raid sites and what I have seen. I usually use DH in raids. I just can not get into FB.

As far as the delima I keep hearing... There seems to be two easy options that people want to ignore:1.) Above Crit Cap Gives Power (They will not have the buffs to take advantages of this outside of a group).2.) Give them a damage modifier when mobs have a corruption they can not apply themselves. It would be interesting if a Reaper got an additional boost if something was burning?

I honestly believe Guardians do two much damage with the buffs they give and are one of the key reasons we can skip mechanics. I would rather the top get nerfed for a healthy raid right now. I also see no problem with necromancers having equal damage when they don't buff others or help others in the raid, which will always be considered a weakness.

Guardians aren't the top DPS, though? Mesmers, elementalists, and thieves can out-DPS guardians regardless of hitbox size, and engineers, rangers, and revenants are all within about 400DPS of what guardian can pull out against a large hitbox (which probably means rangers and engineers out-DPS guardians against small hitboxes). If you look at the Snowcrows build guides, when they stack guardians there's usually some reason for it other than just having top DPS - because even with the FmW nerf they can still share quickness to an extent, because there's a need for Stability, or because there's adds to refresh F1 (which does buff their DPS, but it's a special case that isn't a large factor for most bosses). Having special cases where it's still the optimal choice due to having specific characteristics useful in that case without being the default choice for everything seems a fair place for it to be - there's always going to be something that's 'optimal', but if that varies between raids, that stops the profession from being overly dominant overall. If it's just a matter of 'damage is too high', you'd need nerfs across the board. Especially to mesmers.

Regarding your two options:

On the first, I like the idea of to stop wasting extra crit chance, but I would note that reaper absolutely CAN overcap crit chance on its own. With Decimate Defences, Death Perception, and a few skills and traits to make sure to dish out a lot of Vulnerability, reapers can get up to 83% crit chance before even taking Precision into account. With Precision, I don't think they'd need to have 25 stacks of vuln to overcap crit chance.

On the second... you'd be hard-pressed to find a condition that necromancers can't dish out. They can dish out burning (through Dhuumfire), albeit at the cost of Death Perception, so that's out. I think Confusion might fit the bill? However, that'd still be potentially buffing them in sPvP, since there the focus target might have Confusion on them from a teammate, so I'd be leery about doing that.

[Obtena.7952]

@Josiah.2967 said:I believe Guardian needs a nerf. They are one of the key components to allow you to bypass raid mechanics. I honestly believe Guardians do to much damage while provided important buffs. I think buff classes should do less damage than non-buff classes to be balanced.

If Anet made class changes so that classes were balanced relative to each other ... that might make sense.

[Josiah.2967]

@draxynnic.3719 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:

@draxynnic.3719 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:On the second... you'd be hard-pressed to find a condition that necromancers can't dish out. They can dish out burning (through Dhuumfire), albeit at the cost of Death Perception, so that's out. I think Confusion might fit the bill? However, that'd still be potentially buffing them in sPvP, since there the focus target might have Confusion on them from a teammate, so I'd be leery about doing that.

My first thought was burning. Necromancers do not have any viable access to burning. Plaguelands is the only option I know of. It is a elite skill that comes with a huge DPS loss to use that would only allow burning for a fraction of the time.

[otto.5684]

@Josiah.2967 said:

@draxynnic.3719 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:Core Guardian is technically better than anything Necromancer has access to.

I find that difficult to believe. Core guardian can outDPS power reaper in raid scenarios, but that's because the design of reaper is to be fairly self-sufficient in terms of boons, vulnerability application, crit chance, and so on. Which means it will often do better running solo, or in smaller-scale content like sPvP (currently, both power reaper and core carrion necro are considered to be meta while there are no guardian builds, core or otherwise, that are considered such, although there are still several guardian builds that do well enough - after all, a build being 'meta' usually means it's actually a bit OP), but doesn't benefit as much from team environments because it's already got the stuff that the team would normally supply, and has lower base damage to balance how much might, vulnerability, crit chance, and now quickness it can give itself. Guardian really shines in group content where, depending on build, it can either throw out a lot of boons or selfishly accept a lot of boons to boost its damage, but it isn't as good at getting high damage

solo

as necromancer and herald can.

Depends on your priorities, really. Necromancer certainly needs a bit of help in high-end group PvE, but it's somewhat difficult to see how to do that without supercharging it in playing solo: vulnerability and selfishly applying boons to itself is in so much of its core kit. Maybe the answer is to enforce splits in competitive mode and just not care if necro ends up becoming the king of solo PvE. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

I'm just going off of the raid sites and what I have seen. I usually use DH in raids. I just can not get into FB.

As far as the delima I keep hearing... There seems to be two easy options that people want to ignore:1.) Above Crit Cap Gives Power (They will not have the buffs to take advantages of this outside of a group).2.) Give them a damage modifier when mobs have a corruption they can not apply themselves. It would be interesting if a Reaper got an additional boost if something was burning?

I believe Guardian needs a nerf. They are one of the key components to allow you to bypass raid mechanics. I honestly believe Guardians do to much damage while provided important buffs. I think buff classes should do less damage than non-buff classes to be balanced.

The only legitimate compliant is that stacking guardians allowed raid groups to eliminate one support role. This already have been sidelined with FmW change. The one aegis thrown by DH every 60 secs as support is BS to complain about. I could buy into that FB being able to providing aegis heal mantra is a bit too strong, but again, hardly over performing. And of course, guardian is not top 3 dps in power or condi. So... potatoes?

[Despot.3048]

Condi FB is def top 3 dps. Dunno what you're on.

[draxynnic.3719]

@Josiah.2967 said:

@draxynnic.3719 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:

@draxynnic.3719 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:On the second... you'd be hard-pressed to find a condition that necromancers can't dish out. They can dish out burning (through Dhuumfire), albeit at the cost of Death Perception, so that's out. I think Confusion might fit the bill? However, that'd still be potentially buffing them in sPvP, since there the focus target might have Confusion on them from a teammate, so I'd be leery about doing that.

My first thought was burning. Necromancers do not have any viable access to burning. Plaguelands is the only option I know of. It is a elite skill that comes with a huge DPS loss to use that would only allow burning for a fraction of the time.

Dhuumfire trait, like I said. Yes, it conflicts with Depth Perception, but a trait that makes all of your autoattacks when in shroud inflict burning seems like pretty good access to burning to me.

[RUNICBLACK.7630]

@Josiah.2967 said:

I believe Guardian needs a nerf. They are one of the key components to allow you to bypass raid mechanics. I honestly believe Guardians do to much damage while provided important buffs. I think buff classes should do less damage than non-buff classes to be balanced.

Ok in your opinion classes that give buffs should do less damage than those that don't give buffs. Well that's a little short sighted in that you need to consider what is a buff per say , let's look at a Core Warrior , they don't put out a lot of buffs right or do they? The banners that he has available while not being a straight buff in the sense of Might or Fury etc but they do supply a huge benefit or what about Core Thief they don't supply alot of buffs but they do give group Stealth and group teleports which of course allows parties to BYPASS various game mechanics.If you are looking at Snowcrows and raid mechanics as a tool to decide which classes are overpowered by how heavily they are represented in any particular suggested raid team make up there are more than few classes that fall into that description but in most cases if you read further into the details and options you would see that the vast majority of DPS classes can very easily be swapped out with another DPS with very little adjustment so again using Raids to support the need for a nerf falls apart just like the buffing class argument does. While I'm not saying that classes don't need evaluation and balancing but I am saying your main supporting points for nerfing the Guardian are lacking in overall merit to support your opinion.

[draxynnic.3719]

@RUNICBLACK.7630 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:

I believe Guardian needs a nerf. They are one of the key components to allow you to bypass raid mechanics. I honestly believe Guardians do to much damage while provided important buffs. I think buff classes should do less damage than non-buff classes to be balanced.

Ok in your opinion classes that give buffs should do less damage than those that don't give buffs. Well that's a little short sighted in that you need to consider what is a buff per say , let's look at a Core Warrior , they don't put out a lot of buffs right or do they? The banners that he has available while not being a straight buff in the sense of Might or Fury etc but they do supply a huge benefit or what about Core Thief they don't supply alot of buffs but they do give group Stealth and group teleports which of course allows parties to BYPASS various game mechanics.If you are looking at Snowcrows and raid mechanics as a tool to decide which classes are overpowered by how heavily they are represented in any particular suggested raid team make up there are more than few classes that fall into that description but in most cases if you read further into the details and options you would see that the vast majority of DPS classes can very easily be swapped out with another DPS with very little adjustment so again using Raids to support the need for a nerf falls apart just like the buffing class argument does. While I'm not saying that classes don't need evaluation and balancing but I am saying your main supporting points for nerfing the Guardian are lacking in overall merit to support your opinion.

It also says something that the Snowcrows raid build team setups seem to be very sensitive to relatively small changes in balance. The FMW! nerf, for instance, made guardian stacking for DPS go down from being a good proportion of the raids to just three. This is actually a good sign, since it shows that the distinction between an optimal team setup and alternative team setups is small enough that even relatively minor shifts in the balance can cause them to switch places.

It's also worth keeping in mind with the snowcrows setups that if you've got one build that's a small percentage better than another build in the same role, what you're going to see is a lot of the first build and none of the second. Elementalists seem to be in this category at the moment, being close to the top of the list in terms of pure DPS... but because mesmers are the top DPS, any role where the only consideration is maximum DPS is going to be filled by a mesmer, even if the elementalist isn't that far behind.

So you can get a bit of a warped sense of the actual state of balance by looking at the optimal teams - a build could be just short of optimal (but still perfectly viable) and it might not show up in the optimal teams at all. Similarly, a build could be only just better than everything else and it'll show up a lot, even if it could be replaced by something else and it'll still work fairly well.

Consider that engineer was pretty much absent from the raid setups before the last balance patch, and now power holosmith is nearly as common as power dragonhunter. I don't think it got buffed so much in the last patch that it was completely unviable beforehand. Similar comments apply to power soulbeasts.