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Perceived toxicity


yann.1946

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@"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:This is why some people won't step into fractals, raids, or even dungeons. Raids coming to GW2 was a controversial move, and the original game was made without raids partly because Anet didn't want raid toxicity to be in the game. This is an age old problem, and there's not a lot of evidence that it has been fixed. Or even evidence that it can be fixed. MMOs aren't new. GW2 drew a large casual crowd at launch, full of people who had been burned by the hardcore players of other MMOs. They've learned their lesson, and all of that grief isn't worth the risk that this time, for no apparent reason, raids are a better place now. Hence, why I say the problem cannot be fixed.

The question is if there is evidence that this problem of yours "exist" or not, or rather if it's so common place as to be an actual problem. Provide your evidence that the problem exist before you look at evidence if the problem can be "fixed", is it an actual problem that exist, or perceived one? Is it a real issue, or an issue brought up by players who never experienced it, or have just second hand experience with it? "Hey I read on the internet that Raids in games are toxic, therefore it must be true"

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@yann.1946 said:

@"Cyninja.2954" said:No, this thread is from an individual who addresses the perception of possible toxicity from a source, in this case the forums. Not the entire raiding community, in fact, most other players disagreed with this notion. As such, I'd first like proof that this claim is actually true.

I'm actually confused about this. I merely observed that on the forums raiders get called toxic, and we have anecdotes from people who where scared of at first and later came around and where pleasently surprised.

And most of the people I've seen disagree are using the argument

"perceived toxicity = actual toxicity"

Simple, I am saying:most complaints about toxicity in raids/fractals/dungeons/we on the forums come from very similar players:

  • never actually played the content
  • often opinions based on highly singular anecdotal encounters
  • often paired with an inability or lack of desire to actually work as a group
  • lack of understanding or following grouping mechanisms

In essence, most players complaining about toxicity in raids create a feedback loop among themselves. That is, players of similar situation agreeing with each other and boosting their perception. One which, given the often very similar uneducated/inexperienced background the players have, leads to a incorrect perception of a huge part of the raiding community being toxic.

On the flip side, there are those players who actually have raided or raid, who have walked the path, who are willing and able to cooperate and work within a group and social group, many of which disagree with the former group. The main difference here, these players actually have succeeded at the content and most often have extensive experience with it.

There are even cases of very vocal players who were completely convinced that raiders are the devil suddenly change their opinion after actually experiencing productive raid trainings. Realizing that the community [raiding community or any], when engaged in a proper and productive manner akin to someone who is willing to contribute to a group effort, can be very helpful and is no more or less toxic than any other group of players.

Beyond that, anything stated here is anecdotal.

EDIT:and if we go by the actual other thread you brought up in your starting post, the topic creator there took an involuntary temporary leave from the forums, aka ban, and was a great example how toxicity is not necessarily something exclusive to a specific kind of content.

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@Laila Lightness.8742 said:Funny as dungeons back then were toxic you couldnt play class you want like ranger necro sure make own team but you would wait hoursThat was actual the same problem with perception vs reality... You could perfectly well play ranger in an optimized dungeon group as spirits, spotter and the fact you gained the most by picking up an elementalist's frostbow to replace your low scaling melee weapon compensated for the normally lower personal dps. (And you got the offhand axe pull to group up mobs in the rare case there wasn't a conveniently placed corner to stack in^^)And then there was the the perceived notion that every single ranger played a P/V/T geared bowbear build camping at maximum range and using Point-Blank Shot on CD to screw with melees. :-)

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@Laila Lightness.8742 said:

@"Yasai.3549" said:
  1. Refuse to use a meta build despite being new

See this is the bigest contributer of the toxicity for 2 simple reasons.

1: Metabuilds are not the only way to beat this content, plenty of groups/players have succeeded in raids without using Metabuilds.2: Most people want to play the content for fun and do not want to be bossed around and forced into playing a severely different class or playstyle that they have no idea how to use.. making them effectively useless and resulting in them possibly being berated for it.Good example being a Ranger player who's never used Druid before being forced into a support, healing role and not having the first clue how to play it.

Most people can't be bothered to deal with that kind of thing, and it's only reinforced by the negative stories the hear about in game or on the forums or reddit.

Reality is there is a toxicity problem perpetuated by some raiders and the so called "elite" players that has resulted in a minority of players putting a bunch of rules and expectations on raid content.. essentially demanding that everyone who wants to play the content must play the game in the very small amount of ways that they accept are the "right" ways to play the content, and so most players generally accepted that they were just not welcome there.´and it was not worth bothering to try.The end result was obvious, raid content ended up appealing to a very small minority of players and most just stopped caring about it.

Anet has tried to remedy this problem with strike missions, bringing easier, more forgiving raid style content to the game that is more easily accessable and welcoming to non raiders to get them interested in and slightly experienced in raid content.But the same toxic attitudes that turned people off raiding in the first place has spread to strike missions as well, becoming another game mode that a minority of players have put a bunch of rules and expectations on that has driven most players away despite that the content was designed for those players and not the toxic minority that ruined raids for most people in the first place.

This is not a new problem though, this same problem existed in fractals many years ago and Dungeons as well long before that.There has and likely always will be a toxic minority problem in GW2.. and any MMO for that matter because there will always be players who think that their way of playing the game is the right or only way to play the game.

In regards to raids and strikes.. sure there is an "optimal" way to play that content and get the fastest kills.. that isn't and never has been up for debate.But when you start restricting that content to only players who accept that "optimal" way to play.. then all you've succeeded in doing is making that content playable by a small minority of players where it will eventually stagnate, wither and die thanks to low population/interest... just like raids has in Gw2 and likely where the future of strikes is heading to as well.

At that point there will be a lot of whining from that minority of players about how unfair it is they Anet doesn't spend time and resources making content that most people won't play or even bother to try anymore.. while they refuse to accept that the reason most people won't try or play it is because of that minority of players and nothing else.

So what is the solution?Honestly, I don't think there is one.. Raider minotiry aint going to change their ways and the majority player base ain't going to change theirs either..What we can all agree on though is that without more players.. these raid game modes will be regarded as a failure and Anet will probably stop supporting them at some point.I think it's a safe bet that most players really wouldn't care though if that happened.. it's to be expected all things considered.

Meta builds is most effiecient but not needed to beat content the meta is built around other meta builds but i wouldnt give a new player a meta build as its probly above their skill unless for warrior, sword holo those 2 are easy

Part of the point I was making yeah.

Just giving someone a build they've never used before and expecting them to be able to use it is pretty silly, especially in the case of role swapping examples like I said with Ranger to Druid.But even among the easy ones there are elements that play big roles.A new player given a meta DPS build still aint going to hit the benchmark some groups expect because they just don't know how to use the build optimally.. aka min max their rotations etc.This requires lots of practice.. or for better use of the word, training.And like a lot of raiders will also make a point of saying as well.. "it's not their job to train you" but they'll certainly expect you to perform to their standards regardless of that.

Kinda comes with the territory really that if you want someone to use a certain build and you give them that build and tell them to use it, then you are at least partly responsible for giving them a rundown on how to use it.That is something that is a credit to raiders who do training runs, so fair enough for them.

But if a player does this among a pug group regardless of the content and then pulls the whole, "not my job to teach you how to play your class" attitude then frankly as far as I am concerned, they have no right to be telling you how to play your class in the first place.Basically, "If you won't teach, then don't preach."

If some raiders are gonna criticize people and throw builds at them, then the least they can do is help them understand how to play what they! are pretty much expecting them to play.. They're just asking to be called toxic and elitist otherwise.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:This is why some people won't step into fractals, raids, or even dungeons. Raids coming to GW2 was a controversial move, and the original game was made without raids partly because Anet didn't want raid toxicity to be in the game. This is an age old problem, and there's not a lot of evidence that it has been fixed. Or even evidence that it can be fixed. MMOs aren't new. GW2 drew a large casual crowd at launch, full of people who had been burned by the hardcore players of other MMOs. They've learned their lesson, and all of that grief isn't worth the risk that this time, for no apparent reason, raids are a better place now. Hence, why I say the problem cannot be fixed.

The question is if there is evidence that this problem of yours "exist" or not, or rather if it's so common place as to be an actual problem. Provide your evidence that the problem exist before you look at evidence if the problem can be "fixed", is it an actual problem that exist, or perceived one? Is it a real issue, or an issue brought up by players who never experienced it, or have just second hand experience with it? "Hey I read on the internet that Raids in games are toxic, therefore it must be true"

I would argue that the low population of this content is pretty evident that the problem does exist.

I've said many times that a great deal of players and builds are more than capable of beating this content so the problem largely comes from accessability.The toxic player element will always play a role in tuning people off playing something, that's just universally true for everything and one reason why a lot of people will avoid certain things in games or even certain games entirely.

The other 2 factors are: General lack of interest, which to be fair is a big one.. As Blood Red Arachnid.2493 pointed out Gw2's target audience is and always has been the more casual MMO player who's just playing purely for fun, so there is a great number of people who don't have much or any interest in difficult hardcore content in general.

The other factor is the players who would be willing to try it and would probably enjoy it, but are kept away by the player established rules/expectations on the content.. which to them seem more like hard restrictions on what they can play and how they can play it..This doesn't sit well with a lot of people, especially when they know that these rules/expectations are not mandatory to enjoy and beat the content.This is only further reinforced by negative experiences they or others have had trying to get into the content as well.

A lot of us old players still remember when the same toxic attitudes existed in dungeons.From a personal experience several years ago, I still remember when a CoF P1 run took us 3 minutes longer to complete than one player in our party found acceptable.. to which he was extremely vocal about in the chat afterwards and used to justify being a massive "D" to everyone.This kind of thing has always existed in "difficult, endgame" content in just about any MMO.Hell there are still cases with dungeon content where people will try to be a "D" about someones DPS or unfamiliatiry with the content.. I still occasionally find players who refuse to allow non lvl 80's in the party which is just asinine to me.

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Good day ,

What exactly keeps toxic effected players from making their own groups. That's the actual definition of what RA was and still is. An easy place to start raiding.

Don't like meeting 80 percent of your class bench ? Make your own group and stipulate no benchmark dps plz. Or better yet just open an all welcome raid or strike.

Unless people expect bench mark players to join these lesser exp groups there shouldn't be a problem.

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@"Teratus.2859" said:I would argue that the low population of this content is pretty evident that the problem does exist.

And I would argue that the lack of releases for this content is pretty evident why there is a low population.

The toxic player element will always play a role in tuning people off playing something, that's just universally true for everything and one reason why a lot of people will avoid certain things in games or even certain games entirely.

Of course it will. The question is if that "toxic player element" exists on the forums and/or other social media or inside the actual game. It's quite evident that in almost every post about toxicity players with zero experience of Raids and an active agenda against them, post and turn them into a heap of negativity and toxicity.

From a personal experience several years ago, I still remember when a CoF P1 run took us 3 minutes longer to complete than one player in our party found acceptable.. to which he was extremely vocal about in the chat afterwards and used to justify being a massive "D" to everyone.

From a personal experience I remember a thread on these forums, someone was complaining about toxicity of the elitists (and also about the toxicity of DPS meters) because he joined as a Tempest for a T4 Fractal run and got kicked. He said the group asked him about his very low DPS and then kicked him because he was doing less damage than the Druid.

I personally asked that person what build he run and he confirmed he was a heal Tempest. He joined a group that already had a Healer Druid, never bothered to tell the group that he was a healer (the group was looking to fill the last spot with a DPS role) then proceeded to call the group toxic for not wanting him in the group. I gave them the advice to either don't join groups that look for dps as a healer or to simply TELL them that they are a healer. Perhaps that healer Druid would change to a condi dps Ranger if he knew? But no, he went silent, he was inconsiderate and disrespectful. Or toxic. After pointing out that he was the toxic one in the situation, the OP left the thread and never came back, yet the anti elitist/ anti dps meter forum squad kept the thread going for 15 more pages, demanding punishment from Anet, removal of dps meters and the usual forum things.

Keep in mind that in his opening post he never bothered to say anything about the group having a healer Druid already, or about him playing a healer Tempest. He simply yelled that DPS meters should be banned because he was kicked by elitist toxic players for having low DPS. Of course the usual forum squad would pick it up and turn that entire thread into a pool of negativity and toxicity, as they always do, even when not knowing the actual details of what happened. "Someone was kicked because of DPS meters, ban DPS meters, those evil toxic elitists ruin the game!" when the truth is quite different...

Every post about toxicity might have a hidden truth like that, which is also why Anet cannot officially do something about this perceived toxicity given how posts like that can be very very easily faked.

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I think new players need to manage their expectations better, and no player should feel entitled to be a part of someone's group. The commanders (and even the other squad members) are putting their time in to do those raids, and sometimes people are just not ready or are really holding their team back, and it should be okay to tell those people that they need to go and learn or practise more before they raid again. I find a lot of new players mostly get kicked because they join an LFG that they do not meet the requirements for, and so they perceive that as toxic and the raid community not welcoming them. There are enough training raids on LFG, and guilds dedicated to raids/trainings, and even just normal PvE guilds that also run training raids, that you should be able to find a group meant for your level of experience.

There is also a problem that occurs nearly every single time I lead a raid training: the majority of people do not come prepared. Whilst I will always give a brief explanation, I really do expect that people should look up what they're doing first and should have geared a meta build (and exotic gear REALLY is fine, having the right stats/weapons/traits/skills is a really great start). Nearly any raid boss is still possible even with bad DPS, if you think back to when raids launched, the DPS is nothing like it is now, but to not do everything you can to try and contribute everything possible, I don't think it's fair to everyone else in the squad.

More often than not, it's just people not knowing entirely what to do, even with an explanation, or people not playing their role correctly. Obviously this is to be expected in some degree, but you'd be amazed at some of the things you see. We even have memes in our guild stemming from the "666 dps rifle warrior at Cairn". If I had kicked that guy before we killed the boss, he would have thought I was toxic.

I think a way to help new players into raiding would be to have in game "guides" of sort that give an overview of each boss and what the bosses do (I don't mean guides on how to kill it, I don't think it should have any strategy there, just something to emphasise that they are hard, and a list of the things that they do).

I hope I didn't come across as too salty here. I really do enjoy leading training raids and trying to teach people things, but there's just specific type of pug out there that can make it a really miserable experience for everyone involved.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Teratus.2859" said:I would argue that the low population of this content is pretty evident that the problem does exist.

And I would argue that the lack of releases for this content is pretty evident why there is a low population.

I would agree that is a contributing factor for the raider side of the argument, although I would also stress that raid content always has had a small population of dedicated players as well, even at it's most active periods.

The toxic player element will always play a role in tuning people off playing something, that's just universally true for everything and one reason why a lot of people will avoid certain things in games or even certain games entirely.

Of course it will. The question is if that "toxic player element" exists on the forums and/or other social media or inside the actual game. It's quite evident that in almost every post about toxicity players with zero experience of Raids and an active agenda against them, post and turn them into a heap of negativity and toxicity.

People are just sharing their experiences and opinions, whether they have raided or not doesn't matter all that much.Dismissing people's comments based on them having little to no raid experience is part of the toxicty they complain about.. part of the reason why they can't get into the content in the first place.There is simply no need for anyone to have an "agenda" against raiding or raiders, Most people stopped caring about raids a long time ago when they felt excluded from the content, they have nothing to gain by having an agenda against raiders when the content is already dying.

If they did harbor any contempt oir resentment then if anything they would just be gloating about it all the time instead of expressing why they never got to play the content.Them telling you why they don't raid isn't for their benefit.. if anything it's to help raiders understand how exclusive and unwelcoming the content has become, largely thanks to the players who play there.

From a personal experience several years ago, I still remember when a CoF P1 run took us 3 minutes longer to complete than one player in our party found acceptable.. to which he was extremely vocal about in the chat afterwards and used to justify being a massive "D" to everyone.

From a personal experience I remember a thread on these forums, someone was complaining about toxicity of the elitists (and also about the toxicity of DPS meters) because he joined as a Tempest for a T4 Fractal run and got kicked. He said the group asked him about his very low DPS and then kicked him because he was doing less damage than the Druid.

I personally asked that person what build he run and he confirmed he was a heal Tempest. He joined a group that already had a Healer Druid, never bothered to tell the group that he was a healer (the group was looking to fill the last spot with a DPS role) then proceeded to call the group toxic for not wanting him in the group. I gave them the advice to either don't join groups that look for dps as a healer or to simply TELL them that they are a healer. Perhaps that healer Druid would change to a condi dps Ranger if he knew? But no, he went silent, he was inconsiderate and disrespectful. Or toxic. After pointing out that he was the toxic one in the situation, the OP left the thread and never came back, yet the anti elitist/ anti dps meter forum squad kept the thread going for 15 more pages, demanding punishment from Anet, removal of dps meters and the usual forum things.

Keep in mind that in his opening post he never bothered to say anything about the group having a healer Druid already, or about him playing a healer Tempest. He simply yelled that DPS meters should be banned because he was kicked by elitist toxic players for having low DPS. Of course the usual forum squad would pick it up and turn that entire thread into a pool of negativity and toxicity, as they always do, even when not knowing the actual details of what happened. "Someone was kicked because of DPS meters, ban DPS meters, those evil toxic elitists ruin the game!" when the truth is quite different...

Every post about toxicity might have a hidden truth like that, which is also why Anet cannot officially do something about this perceived toxicity given how posts like that can be very very easily faked.

I think I also remember that thread.

There are people who will join groups like that and not be what the group has specified.I'm against that kind of thing as well and there is definitely a toxic element to it I won't deny.

I agree that there are a number of players who don't like DPS meters.I do recognize them as a useful tool but personally I do not care for them, specially since they are not built into the game and are essentially a 3rd party mod, which much like a lot of overlays I regard as some form of cheating since they give players who use them an advantage over players who don't.Thus the problems they can cause often do more harm than good imo.

In organized raid squads where everyone is aware of their use and you're all trying to get a record kill or something it's completely understandable for people to use them.But I would argue there is a very small portion of the game where their use is beneficial.I've seen people run these things in all kinds of content, like dungeons and even in the Mad King's Decent.. which is quick and easy to farm even solo.It just becomes silly at that point.I've even seen multiple players with DPS meters arguing because they disagree over whether or not another player's DPS is acceptable or not.. that one was really funny, specially when the player chimed in and said he wasn't pure DPS and never proclaimed to be in the first place XD

That said I don't think Anet should ban their use, but players who do use them need to be well aware that most people don't nor want to, and they wont take kindly to being accosted by players who do just because they are not playing to someone elses expectations.

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I've encountered just as much toxicity if not more in open-world as in raids. Also, in general, this game is not really toxic.

Meta builds are the easiest to perform well in most cases. Their ceiling is the highest so you don't need perfect execution to do well. If a build is already subpar, has a lower ceiling you will need to be that much better in execution to perform adequately. You can bring any build you want if it performs well. But you can't just come with something random and not perform since raids are content where some level of performance is required.

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There's alot to say about this subject, but I'll just say this.

I see this argument time and time again "new players are the problem", "newbies stop lying, stop deceiving, stop wasting time". Well, I ask you, how is a newer player supposed to know anything about the game, let alone all the unspoken rules and regulations of your LFG culture, which they have no way of finding out without playing the content, especially when they're not game rules and ArenaNet doesn't enforce them?

Here's the problem with veterans in this game: The game gives new players a key to their first car, a beat up old junker, and then when they drive up next to the other cars ready to start a race so they can gain experience, everyone asks "where's your Ferrari, and your awards?".

When new players can't present either of those things because they have no money, no experience and not prestige. they're told to just get lost. And then after a while they get tired of being told to get lost, so they start obfuscating details ("fake it until you make it") because they can't just magically make money, experience and prestige appear, like everyone wants, And then they're told that they're lying and deceiving.

You could just ignore it, race and win. I seriously doubt one player (even in 5man) is pulling down the whole group. This a myth brought on by the need to have someone to blame; shown by the ability of people to solo or 2man most content, heck you can even get through nearly all T3/T4 Fractals just by having 2-3 people with the right composition, a few deadweights doesn't ruin everything unless you're also deadweight.

You can run raids in Masterwork gear, but surely this one person is ruining /everything/ for you.

Let me try to translate the words coming out of your mouths: "I am completely dependant on a perfect team composition and near-perfect gameplay to clear content because I'm not able to adapt to weaknesses in myself or my team, or simply refuse to do so". Doesn't this sound alot like what you're accusing newer, "stubborn" players of, when in reality they're probably just struggling to understand?

This doesn't just affect raids btw. It affects all parts of the game, especially the competitive modes (PvP more than WvW, I guess).

The net result is that they can't get anywhere while vets complain their challenging content is dead. Whether you're right or wrong doesn't matter, but you're all partly to blame for where the game, and the community, have ended up.

There's no such thing as innocence, only varying degrees of guilt.

EDIT: Some edits for clarity.

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@"Hannelore.8153" said:There's alot to say about this subject, but I'll just say this.

I see this argument time and time again "new players are the problem", "newbies stop lying, stop deceiving, stop wasting time". Well, I ask you, how is a newer player supposed to know anything about the game, let alone all the unspoken rules and regulations of your LFG culture, which they have no way of finding out without playing the content, especially when they're not game rules and ArenaNet doesn't enforce them?

Here's the problem with veterans in this game: The game gives new players a key to their first car, a beat up old junker, and then when they drive up next to the other cars ready to start a race so they can gain experience, everyone asks "where's your Ferrari, and your awards?".

When new players can't present either of those things because they have no money, no experience and not prestige. they're told to just get lost. And then after a while they get tired of being told to get lost, so they start obfuscating details ("fake it until you make it") because they can't just magically make money, experience and prestige appear, like everyone wants, And then they're told that they're lying and deceiving.

You could just ignore it, race and win. I seriously doubt one player (even in 5man) is pulling down the whole group. This a myth brought on by the need to have someone to blame; shown by the ability of people to solo or 2man most content, heck you can even get through nearly all T3/T4 Fractals just by having 2-3 people with the right composition, a few deadweights doesn't ruin everything unless you're also deadweight.

You can run raids in Masterwork gear, but surely this one person is ruining /everything/ for you.

Let me try to translate the words coming out of your mouths: "I am completely dependant on a perfect team composition and near-perfect gameplay to clear content because I'm not able to adapt to weaknesses in myself or my team, or simply refuse to do so". Doesn't this sound alot like what you're accusing newer, "stubborn" players of, when in reality they're probably just struggling to understand?

This doesn't just affect raids btw. It affects all parts of the game, especially the competitive modes (PvP more than WvW, I guess).

The net result is that they can't get anywhere while vets complain their challenging content is dead. Whether you're right or wrong doesn't matter, but you're all partly to blame for where the game, and the community, have ended up.

There's no such thing as innocence, only varying degrees of guilt.

EDIT: Some edits for clarity.

Yes the game absolutely sucks horribly in teaching new playes anything about how to play decently but that is entirely on anet and the vocal casuals who complain to death about anything remotely challenging in the game, and has nothiing to do with raiders.

A new player who is bad purely from ignorance, but wants to improve will very quickly find the help and advice needed. Almost everyone is happy to answer questions or suggest guides that can give a player everything they need. Raiders have literally spent hundreds of hours writing guides, making vids and crafting builds that will carry all but the worst players through content if they bother to read/watch them. All it takes is 1 question in guild chat or aerodrome, or one google search. There are the raiders who spend hours each week running trainings to help new players get into raids, getting 0 benefit themselves and doing it purely for others. Raiders have done more than any other group in this game to help newbies, except for the wiki creators or dulfy herself back when she was active. If you put in 0 effort to help yourself and demand everyone do it for you, expect 0 help in return.

Other than torpedoing their own clear groups by accepting any and all new players which is a super entitled and unreasonable thing to ask, what else exactly should raiders be doing to help newbies? Quite frankly, I do not want to carry a player who contributes nothing to the group. They will never learn anything if they are just carried through.

Maybe if a player cant even understand half the terms in a LFG, they shouldnt be joining that group as it clearly isnt for them?

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@Teratus.2859 said:

@"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:This is why some people won't step into fractals, raids, or even dungeons. Raids coming to GW2 was a controversial move, and the original game was made without raids partly because Anet didn't want raid toxicity to be in the game. This is an age old problem, and there's not a lot of evidence that it has been fixed. Or even evidence that it can be fixed. MMOs aren't new. GW2 drew a large casual crowd at launch, full of people who had been burned by the hardcore players of other MMOs. They've learned their lesson, and all of that grief isn't worth the risk that this time, for no apparent reason, raids are a better place now. Hence, why I say the problem cannot be fixed.

The question is if there is evidence that this problem of yours "exist" or not, or rather if it's so common place as to be an actual problem. Provide your evidence that the problem exist before you look at evidence if the problem can be "fixed", is it an actual problem that exist, or perceived one? Is it a real issue, or an issue brought up by players who never experienced it, or have just second hand experience with it? "Hey I read on the internet that Raids in games are toxic, therefore it must be true"

I would argue that the low population of this content is pretty evident that the problem does exist.

I've said many times that a great deal of players and builds are more than capable of beating this content so the problem largely comes from accessability.The toxic player element will always play a role in tuning people off playing something, that's just universally true for everything and one reason why a lot of people will avoid certain things in games or even certain games entirely.

The other 2 factors are: General lack of interest, which to be fair is a big one.. As Blood Red Arachnid.2493 pointed out Gw2's target audience is and always has been the more casual MMO player who's just playing purely for fun, so there is a great number of people who don't have much or any interest in difficult hardcore content in general.

The other factor is the players who would be willing to try it and would probably enjoy it, but are kept away by the player established rules/expectations on the content.. which to them seem more like hard restrictions on what they can play and how they can play it..This doesn't sit well with a lot of people, especially when they know that these rules/expectations are not mandatory to enjoy and beat the content.This is only further reinforced by negative experiences they or others have had trying to get into the content as well.

A lot of us old players still remember when the same toxic attitudes existed in dungeons.From a personal experience several years ago, I still remember when a CoF P1 run took us 3 minutes longer to complete than one player in our party found acceptable.. to which he was extremely vocal about in the chat afterwards and used to justify being a massive "D" to everyone.This kind of thing has always existed in "difficult, endgame" content in just about any MMO.Hell there are still cases with dungeon content where people will try to be a "D" about someones DPS or unfamiliatiry with the content.. I still occasionally find players who refuse to allow non lvl 80's in the party which is just asinine to me.

I don't think this problem can even be fixed. These are theme-park MMOs in a nutshell. They're based on the Everquest/WoW model. where you have this mythical concept of "endgame", or the carrot on the stick. Of course, this situation starts out ok -- nobody has the carrot, everybody is exploring different ways to get it. However....

Once enough people get the carrot, all that's left for a community to do before they get bored, is to streamline the content to get the carrot even faster. The veterans then start to establish certain rules and expectations in order to get said carrot. ("meta"!) (Ex: "If you don't jump at the carrot this way, you're doing it wrong!") And yes, this puts off new players. Sorry...the "hardcore" raiding crowd is not innocent in this.

Frankly, this is a major reason why I don't even mess with MMOs anymore. MMOs simply have not grown past the Everquest/WoW model. For supposed "social" environments, MMOs are anything but. I guess it's called "theme-park" for a reason.

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@"Teratus.2859" said:People are just sharing their experiences and opinions, whether they have raided or not doesn't matter all that much.

You cannot share an experience about something without experiencing it first... otherwise it's not an experience. And sharing an opinion, a very vocal opinion, while having no first hand experience is exactly what creates this perceived toxicity. Is it actually toxic or is it just some random posters posting as if it is, without having a clue about what they are talking about? I'd go with the second one.

There is simply no need for anyone to have an "agenda" against raiding or raiders

You haven't been paying attention to any threads with the word "Raid" in them haven't you?

There are people who will join groups like that and not be what the group has specified.I'm against that kind of thing as well and there is definitely a toxic element to it I won't deny.

Which sums up most forum threads about toxicity in one sentence. Is this "toxicity" really bad? OR is it the one that joins such a group the toxic one? Yet they try to spin it the other way around. Are there ANY indications of another type of toxicity?

That said I don't think Anet should ban their use, but players who do use them need to be well aware that most people don't nor want to, and they wont take kindly to being accosted by players who do just because they are not playing to someone elses expectations.

Yet the same type of player will "expect" a team to carry them through content, no questions asked, not respecting the team's desires or time, and call the community "exclusive" and "unwelcome" when it doesn't play to their expectations.

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I don't want to read all this crap, but on Artsariiv, tome 3 will be enough to completely neutralize her for phase 1 and 3 (with reflects), and if you throw in some stand your ground, it's all good. There's really no reason to not do this anyways. Though I guess it's possible for dps to be bad so it takes forever. A knockback every now and then shouldn't be a problem; it's probably the easiest boss in 100.

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@Teratus.2859 said:

@"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:This is why some people won't step into fractals, raids, or even dungeons. Raids coming to GW2 was a controversial move, and the original game was made without raids partly because Anet didn't want raid toxicity to be in the game. This is an age old problem, and there's not a lot of evidence that it has been fixed. Or even evidence that it can be fixed. MMOs aren't new. GW2 drew a large casual crowd at launch, full of people who had been burned by the hardcore players of other MMOs. They've learned their lesson, and all of that grief isn't worth the risk that this time, for no apparent reason, raids are a better place now. Hence, why I say the problem cannot be fixed.

The question is if there is evidence that this problem of yours "exist" or not, or rather if it's so common place as to be an actual problem. Provide your evidence that the problem exist before you look at evidence if the problem can be "fixed", is it an actual problem that exist, or perceived one? Is it a real issue, or an issue brought up by players who never experienced it, or have just second hand experience with it? "Hey I read on the internet that Raids in games are toxic, therefore it must be true"

I would argue that the low population of this content is pretty evident that the problem does exist.

This actually doesn't work as "proof". At best it would proof that the perception exists. But not whether this perception is based on reality or comfermation bias

I've said many times that a great deal of players and builds are more than capable of beating this content so the problem largely comes from accessability.The toxic player element will always play a role in tuning people off playing something, that's just universally true for everything and one reason why a lot of people will avoid certain things in games or even certain games entirely.

The other 2 factors are: General lack of interest, which to be fair is a big one.. As Blood Red Arachnid.2493 pointed out Gw2's target audience is and always has been the more casual MMO player who's just playing purely for fun, so there is a great number of people who don't have much or any interest in difficult hardcore content in general.

The other factor is the players who would be willing to try it and would probably enjoy it, but are kept away by the player established rules/expectations on the content.. which to them seem more like hard restrictions on what they can play and how they can play it..This doesn't sit well with a lot of people, especially when they know that these rules/expectations are not mandatory to enjoy and beat the content.This is only further reinforced by negative experiences they or others have had trying to get into the content as well.

A lot of us old players still remember when the same toxic attitudes existed in dungeons.From a personal experience several years ago, I still remember when a CoF P1 run took us 3 minutes longer to complete than one player in our party found acceptable.. to which he was extremely vocal about in the chat afterwards and used to justify being a massive "D" to everyone.This kind of thing has always existed in "difficult, endgame" content in just about any MMO.Hell there are still cases with dungeon content where people will try to be a "D" about someones DPS or unfamiliatiry with the content.. I still occasionally find players who refuse to allow non lvl 80's in the party which is just asinine to me.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Teratus.2859" said:People are just sharing their experiences and opinions, whether they have raided or not doesn't matter all that much.

You cannot share an experience about something without experiencing it first... otherwise it's not an experience. And sharing an opinion, a very vocal opinion, while having no first hand experience is exactly what creates this perceived toxicity. Is it actually toxic or is it just some random posters posting as if it is, without having a clue about what they are talking about? I'd go with the second one.

That depends on what the experience is.For a number of people their "raid" experience is essentially the same as showing up to an open party and as soon as they've walked through the door they're stopped by a group of people who say "this is our party, you're not good enough to be here, get out!"Them not getting to experience the actual content is irrelevant at that point, their negative experience with the raid community is more than enough for them to have the opinions they do.Dismissing those opinions on the grounds of them not actually having played the content just isnt fair at that point, and it only contributes to the toxicity that they speak of in the first place.

The content isn't what's being criticized most of the time, the community is.

There is simply no need for anyone to have an "agenda" against raiding or raiders

You haven't been paying attention to any threads with the word "Raid" in them haven't you?

I've been in more than a few.

Most to my memory were never about "raids are too hard" but rather "raids are too hard to get into, becuase of the community"

There are people who will join groups like that and not be what the group has specified.I'm against that kind of thing as well and there is definitely a toxic element to it I won't deny.

Which sums up most forum threads about toxicity in one sentence. Is this "toxicity" really bad? OR is it the one that joins such a group the toxic one? Yet they try to spin it the other way around. Are there ANY indications of another type of toxicity?

Some I'll agree but not all, there are a good number of us who make our own groups to avoid this very problem and still end up having to deal with toxic players who try to take them over.The vast majority of my personal negative experience with those kinds of players has been in groups I created, in fact I rarely ever join other peoples groups.

"All Welcome" I put in every one of my group descriptions for a reason, I won't tolerate that kind of behaviour in my groups and I'd rather kick the "elite" player for being a D than dogpile on another player for not playing to the expecations of another.If that means I have to carry another player I will, and if that means we'll fail against something then so be it.. at least we'll have fun doing it.

That said I don't think Anet should ban their use, but players who do use them need to be well aware that most people don't nor want to, and they wont take kindly to being accosted by players who do just because they are not playing to someone elses expectations.

Yet the same type of player will "expect" a team to carry them through content, no questions asked, not respecting the team's desires or time, and call the community "exclusive" and "unwelcome" when it doesn't play to their expectations.

You're assuming the "team" in this case is always in full agreement with the player doing the criticizing.That might be true from your experience in raids but mine is quite different in other content.If anything most of the teams i've been with get more annoyed by one player holding up a groups progress to whine on about someone elses DPS being too low.Most people just don't care if that one persons low DPS might add a few minutes tops to the run time, they just want to play the content.

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@"Teratus.2859" said:For a number of people their "raid" experience is essentially the same as showing up to an open party and as soon as they've walked through the door they're stopped by a group of people who say "this is our party, you're not good enough to be here, get out!"

Is it really an open party? Or rather a close party that they try desperately to enter even when not being invited.

Dismissing those opinions on the grounds of them not actually having played the content just isnt fair at that point, and it only contributes to the toxicity that they speak of in the first place.

Actually it's totally fair to dismiss them and it's funny that you are doing the same kind of derailing here that they do.

Most to my memory were never about "raids are too hard" but rather "raids are too hard to get into, becuase of the community"

Then you really haven't been to Raid threads in the last few years.

"All Welcome" I put in every one of my group descriptions for a reason, I won't tolerate that kind of behaviour in my groups and I'd rather kick the "elite" player for being a D than dogpile on another player for not playing to the expecations of another.

And I question that this type of behavior is common enough to warrant labeling a part of the community as toxic. How many times where your "all welcome" groups been hijacked while running Raids? Where they actually been "taken over" or was a simple note given about the lack of dps?

If anything most of the teams i've been with get more annoyed by one player holding up a groups progress to whine on about someone elses DPS being too low.Most people just don't care if that one persons low DPS might add a few minutes tops to the run time, they just want to play the content.

I bet you have enough sources to prove this right? And it's not, as the topic of the thread is, PERCEIVED toxicity and not real one.

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@Teratus.2859 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:People are just sharing their experiences and opinions, whether they have raided or not doesn't matter all that much.

You cannot share an experience about something without experiencing it first... otherwise it's not an experience. And sharing an opinion, a very vocal opinion, while having no first hand experience is exactly what creates this perceived toxicity. Is it actually toxic or is it just some random posters posting as if it is, without having a clue about what they are talking about? I'd go with the second one.

That depends on what the experience is.For a number of people their "raid" experience is essentially the same as showing up to an open party and as soon as they've walked through the door they're stopped by a group of people who say "this is our party, you're not good enough to be here, get out!"Them not getting to experience the actual content is irrelevant at that point, their negative experience with the raid community is more than enough for them to have the opinions they do.Dismissing those opinions on the grounds of them not actually having played the content just isnt fair at that point, and it only contributes to the toxicity that they speak of in the first place.

We'll tbh its more akin to someone going to an open party, wandering into a private section of that party. Getting kicked out of that section. And then feeling that they are not welcome on the party.

It's an understandable, yet still untrue assessment of the situation.

The content isn't what's being criticized most of the time, the community is.

There is simply no need for anyone to have an "agenda" against raiding or raiders

You haven't been paying attention to any threads with the word "Raid" in them haven't you?

I've been in more than a few.

Most to my memory were never about "raids are too hard" but rather "raids are too hard to get into, becuase of the community"

To which the community always replied, well these are ways to get into it. Or you can put up your own group and start from scratch. I mean I wouldn't call the opinion that raids are being gatekeeped very true.

There are people who will join groups like that and not be what the group has specified.I'm against that kind of thing as well and there is definitely a toxic element to it I won't deny.

Which sums up most forum threads about toxicity in one sentence. Is this "toxicity" really bad? OR is it the one that joins such a group the toxic one? Yet they try to spin it the other way around. Are there ANY indications of another type of toxicity?

Some I'll agree but not all, there are a good number of us who make our own groups to avoid this very problem and still end up having to deal with toxic players who try to take them over.The vast majority of my personal negative experience with those kinds of players has been in groups I created, in fact I rarely ever join other peoples groups.

"All Welcome" I put in every one of my group descriptions for a reason, I won't tolerate that kind of behaviour in my groups and I'd rather kick the "elite" player for being a D than dogpile on another player for not playing to the expecations of another.If that means I have to carry another player I will, and if that means we'll fail against something then so be it.. at least we'll have fun doing it.

That said I don't think Anet should ban their use, but players who do use them need to be well aware that most people don't nor want to, and they wont take kindly to being accosted by players who do just because they are not playing to someone elses expectations.

Yet the same type of player will "expect" a team to carry them through content, no questions asked, not respecting the team's desires or time, and call the community "exclusive" and "unwelcome" when it doesn't play to their expectations.

You're assuming the "team" in this case is always in full agreement with the player doing the criticizing.That might be true from your experience in raids but mine is quite different in other content.If anything most of the teams i've been with get more annoyed by one player holding up a groups progress to whine on about someone elses DPS being too low.Most people just don't care if that one persons low DPS might add a few minutes tops to the run time, they just want to play the content.

You and maddoctor.2738 are speaking of different situations here though, most people don't mind if their group is optimal, they mind when a dps does less then a healer for example . Or causes a wipe etc

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This entire thread demonstrates exactly why any instanced content breeds "elitist" attitudes and should just be removed. As soon as you limit the number of players allowed it is no longer an inclusive environment and leads to players deciding what is best to include and what should be excluded. "You will play what I tell you how I tell you or I will take my ball and go home.", this is exactly what some of the posters here are saying.

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I have this magic trick that I wish to share with everyone. It applies to joining any kinds of group content, even raids and PvP, and it also works out for any social gatherings, too. When you join any groups of people, be courteous, humble, respectful and more importantly, compliant to the wish of that group. No one trashes a person with a positive attitude. If you're not a good fit for the group, regretfully you have to leave. But there are other fish in the sea. Keep looking and you'll find your match. Make your own group and more power to you.

Tragedies always happen when people force ideas onto each other, or their way into a relationship. The perceived toxicity roots in their prejudice and judgemental minds. No one and nothing will change unless people's mindset change.

I have seen this type of ranting post a lot since Dungeons were mastered and speed cleared. People came to the forum with a clear divisive "them" vs. "us" mentality and a strong conviction to smite the other down with their words, even trying to bend ANet to their side to deliver the divine judgement to the opposing faction. After a few years, what comes out of it? Most has left the game, new people come in, the topic has drifted to the new subject of elitism: raids. But, but what about those victims of then dungeon elitism? Have they got the clears they deserve now that all their enemy elitists are purged? Now to the same people who feel raid toxicity has exclude them from doing the content: What do you truly want? The content, the acceptance to someone else's group, or the satisfaction that "if it's not mine, none shall have it"? If it's the content, start working towards it on your own pace and few really bothers you if you set your eyes on the goal. If it's the acceptance, start working towards being an asset of the team, mostly attitude and some skills to back your confidence. If it's the Doomsday, well, be your bitter person. Nothing will change. Same old, same old.

Just a shower of thoughts.

Tl;dr

"Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend."

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@"Teratus.2859" said:For a number of people their "raid" experience is essentially the same as showing up to an open party and as soon as they've walked through the door they're stopped by a group of people who say "this is our party, you're not good enough to be here, get out!"Except the right analogy would have been: "They show up to an open party... But when they aren't allowed to get through a door there labeled "private" (either not understanding the word or not caring) they throw a tantrum, disturb the other guests just trying to party there. Then they go on and spend their whole day on the street in front of the house telling everbody coming even remotely close how that's a hell hole right there you should never visit under any circumstances if you know what's good for you"@"Teratus.2859" said:Most to my memory were never about "raids are too hard" but rather "raids are too hard to get into, becuase of the community"No, they are mostly about "raids are too hard to get into, because i can rarely beat bosses with random guys with no clue (sometimes i don't even tried) but the experienced ones insist on grouping only with players on a similiar experience scale. So please remove dpsmeters, LI and KP so they can't distinguish anymore. Or at least add an easy mode with (probably less but still) indistinguishable rewards."You see the "agenda"there, don't you? It's not hidden that well...

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@"kratan.4619" said:This entire thread demonstrates exactly why any instanced content breeds "elitist" attitudes and should just be removed. As soon as you limit the number of players allowed it is no longer an inclusive environment and leads to players deciding what is best to include and what should be excluded. "You will play what I tell you how I tell you or I will take my ball and go home.", this is exactly what some of the posters here are saying.

I'm not sure which part refers to the "if you don't play the way I want, then I'll leave". Isn't that exactly what players are saying who want others to take them along on any build?

I agree with you, players who can't work as a team or are not willing to supersede their own desires/demands for that of the group have no room in group content. That's not only the case here, that's a general rule for life. If you can't work in a team, no one will want to have you in theirs.

That has nothing to do with elitism. That's merely some individuals unable to adapt to a cooperative environment where multiple roles are required and the group will is more important than the individual.

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