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Am I the only one who is afraid the dragon storyline will just end with Aurene replacing 6 other?


Sznurek.8791

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@Sznurek.8791 said:

I am not trying to attack or anything but just out of curiosity. How that main plotline resolution can be interesting?

It would be a really obvious one without twists and you could easily predict much before the story ends(it's a little bit like knowing the ending in the middle of a movie).It really throws away all set ups of mistakes and future destruction because of our actions.(All Joko dialogue(which was great btw.) would be thrown out of a window, all theme of destruction caused by killing dragons).It would be a little bit like, well, a story for children where after doing something really stupid nothing really happens because plot must have a happy ending.

It would be a repeat of Mordremoth plot where we were going after him without and real plan and just when we met him some character(Traeharne if I remember correctly) told us his weakens which for our current situation was perfect(just standing before an allay directly connected to his mind). Going without any plan at random(especially if playing with giant forces(like dragons, gods etc.) and always being unrealistically lucky(because some plot device shows just when we need it) isn't good writing.

That is pretty much exactly what happened in PoF. We went after Balthazar with no real plan, died, undied, and just when we went in for round 2 Rytlock handed us his sword. I don't really see a motivation for the writers to change course.

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@Finalfreefall.8247 said:That is pretty much exactly what happened in PoF. We went after Balthazar with no real plan, died, undied, and just when we went in for round 2 Rytlock handed us his sword. I don't really see a motivation for the writers to change course.Lets ignore the fact we killed Iberu, used magic to disguise ourselves as him, used this guide to get Joko's various warmasters on our side, and built an army to fight Balthazar's army so we could stop him.

We didn't just waltz up to Balthazar for round 2 without a plan to counter his forces.

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@"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:Lets ignore the fact we killed Iberu, used magic to disguise ourselves as him, used this guide to get Joko's various warmasters on our side, and built an army to fight Balthazar's army so we could stop him.

We didn't just waltz up to Balthazar for round 2 without a plan to counter his forces.

Ah yes, I forgot the part where we were killed by Balthazar's entire army instead of specifically by Balthazar in a small-scale combat scenario. Good job!

And I fondly recall burying Balthazar in a mountain of awakened instead of fighting him one-on-one again with a weapon handed to us at the start of the battle. Yes. That would have been a similar scenario. I'm glad that never happened.

All sarcasm aside, we picked up an army on the way to Mordymord. They're called the Pact. (this is the same Pact from the Living story) If you've been to Maguuma you can take time rallying them to your cause and fighting with them against the Dragon's army.

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I'm pretty glad Aurene has grown.

But she has grown way too fast, way too soon.Now I just want her to die before she is used as a literal Deus Ex Machina.

Imagine if she absorbs Jormag and Jormag's consciousness destroys her own, and now Jormag is in control of Aurene's body with the power of 4 dragons and a god inside them.

That would be a great plot twist I think.

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@"Sznurek.8791" said:I really think this would be a boring and bad ending. It would be again just luck that our dragon is the ultimate plot device(a magical sponge which is better sponge than all other 6 elder dragons while not becoming corrupted).

I think the storyline right now is pointing towards great mistakes we have made killing the dragons and destroying the balance between them(and I think it's a really nice plot). But if all of this is just to be solved by Aurene eating magic of all other dragons well that would be really disappointing.I really think the story with replacing each elder dragon is much more intriguing(what beings will replace them, will we find other dragons? kunavang, other ED children, gods, spirits, bring back titans, or maybe don't replace some of them, etc.) and can setup many more future surprises for the universe(replacing dragon with other being which isn't "good" because we have to do it, like deal with Joko in gw1).

I am afraid of this because with the last magazine about Icebrood saga and war eternal there are some suggestion this will happen(prismatic dragon, Kralkatorrik talk with Aurene).

How many good fantasy and sci fi shows have you seen? Its all about the compelling conflict not the destination. Whether or not Aurene supersedes all the other dragons or not is irrelevant because there will always be another conflict, another baddie, another mission. Its an MMO after all. We still have massive amounts of lore to explore and even in other worlds and the mists. We COULD catch up to the Human Gods who left Tyria. We could leave Tyria entirely and go to other places. Remember shattered observatory and those extradimensional beings? Where did they come from and also remember Kralk's "mother." Who the heck is that?! So don't fret too much. Good writers always think 12 steps ahead and if they didn't good writers can logically come up with the next compelling plotline.

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@Stephen.6312 said:Hi Sznurek.8791! I'm in full agreement with you. Simply having Aurene replace all of the Elder Dragons is boring. However, the big question is whether she even can and why six Elder Dragons emerged in the first place? Look at all of the examples of paradigms embracing the idea of six, distinct colors, elements, threads, all of which suggest that separating, rather than combining, magic is the safest way to practice it. I think that something is coming for the Commander. Maybe Aurene turns on us when the growing pains of assuming the mantle of Elder Dragon at such a young age cause her to viciously and rabidly destroy anything and everything that moves. Maybe something else? I don't think that Aurene is the final answer, just another piece of the puzzle.

Sounds like we need more Aurene's....maybe even Aurene can birth scions of her own....

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@Tyson.5160 said:Wonder if the Spirits of the Wild could come into play with Jormag’s energy. They seem to talk about how the spirts have an endless supply of magic. Then like Aurene and potentially the Pale Tree with the Sylvari, share the magic with the Norn.

I could see it as a possibility. Diving into replacing elder dragons with other entities.

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@Bast.7253 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:Wonder if the Spirits of the Wild could come into play with Jormag’s energy. They seem to talk about how the spirts have an endless supply of magic. Then like Aurene and potentially the Pale Tree with the Sylvari, share the magic with the Norn.

I could see it as a possibility. Diving into replacing elder dragons with other entities.

Sadizi in PoF also stated entities as well in the glint legacy cinematic, rather then specifically dragons.

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@Tyson.5160 said:Wonder if the Spirits of the Wild could come into play with Jormag’s energy. They seem to talk about how the spirts have an endless supply of magic. Then like Aurene and potentially the Pale Tree with the Sylvari, share the magic with the Norn.The Pale Tree and the Spirits would make for a rather logical dragon replacements in the narrative.-Aurene replaces Kralk-The Spirits replace Jormag-The Pale Tree replaces Mordremoth-Have Kuunavang replace BubblesZhaitan and Primordus can go shove it.

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@Finalfreefall.8247 said:

@"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:Lets ignore the fact we killed Iberu, used magic to disguise ourselves as him, used this guide to get Joko's various warmasters on our side, and built an army to fight Balthazar's army so we could stop him.

We didn't just waltz up to Balthazar for round 2 without a plan to counter his forces.

Ah yes, I forgot the part where we were killed by Balthazar's entire army instead of specifically by Balthazar in a small-scale combat scenario. Good job!

And I fondly recall burying Balthazar in a mountain of awakened instead of fighting him one-on-one again with a weapon handed to us at the start of the battle. Yes. That would have been a similar scenario. I'm glad that never happened.

All sarcasm aside, we picked up an army on the way to Mordymord. They're called the
. (this is the same Pact from the Living story) If you've been to Maguuma you can take time rallying them to your cause and fighting with them against the Dragon's army.

I mean, if you generalize the plot down to the point of "found enemy, tried to fight enemy, had setback, recovered, tried to fight enemy again, succeeded" you're kinda more or less described the Hero's Journey in less words. At that level of generalization, you described every plot with external conflict, not just GW2's expansions.

But "entering the Maguuma Jungle with a fleet that gets wiped out, then gathering the remnants of that army with some help from locals, locating and securing a dragon egg, seeking out ancient asuran city for means to destroy the Elder Dragon, then chasing down captured allies and happening upon the Elder Dragon's lair and kills it" is very different from "entering the Crystal Dragon alone, meeting a few old friends there, hunting down a rogue god, witnessing an ancient dragon's death, seeking out a god, getting ambushed and killed by rogue god who takes our baby dragon, get resurrected then tricks an army to fight for them as they enter a prepared battle against rogue god beneath the gaze of an Elder Dragon the player must save while also saving, then fighting alongside, out baby dragon".

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What if Glint was using us all along to usurp the elder Dragons and insert her scion and therefore family line as the ultimate power in the universe, that once Aurene has absorbed enough magic, she just consumes us all in a crystalline apocalypse and the screen fades to black?

I mean, that's what David Benioff and D. B. Weiss would do.

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@"Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582" said:What if Glint was using us all along to usurp the elder Dragons and insert her scion and therefore family line as the ultimate power in the universe, that once Aurene has absorbed enough magic, she just consumes us all in a crystalline apocalypse and the screen fades to black?

I mean, that's what David Benioff and D. B. Weiss would do.

Nah, D&D would have Dragon's Watch just "kinda forget" that Jormag woke up when Episode 5 comes around. Then they'll bring in Zhaitan to save the day because it fell into the misty ground and we never saw people check his pulse so it wasn't actually dead, but because everyone kinda forgot that it was evil Zhaitan ends up betraying everyone when folks believe it's an ally now.

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@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:I mean, if you generalize the plot down to the point of "found enemy, tried to fight enemy, had setback, recovered, tried to fight enemy again, succeeded" you're kinda more or less described the Hero's Journey in less words. At that level of generalization, you described every plot with external conflict, not just GW2's expansions.

But "entering the Maguuma Jungle with a fleet that gets wiped out, then gathering the remnants of that army with some help from locals, locating and securing a dragon egg, seeking out ancient asuran city for means to destroy the Elder Dragon, then chasing down captured allies and happening upon the Elder Dragon's lair and kills it" is very different from "entering the Crystal Dragon alone, meeting a few old friends there, hunting down a rogue god, witnessing an ancient dragon's death, seeking out a god, getting ambushed and killed by rogue god who takes our baby dragon, get resurrected then tricks an army to fight for them as they enter a prepared battle against rogue god beneath the gaze of an Elder Dragon the player must save while also saving, then fighting alongside, out baby dragon".

Yes. 99% there. The quibbles that I raised with the plot was that "We went after Balthazar with no real plan, died, undied, and just when we went in for round 2 Rytlock handed us his sword"." Which can be summed up as "Stupid Commander, Lucky Commander, Deus Ex Machina". The reasoning behind the army bit was aggravated sarcasm which seems to have sidetracked my point significantly and I apologize for time spent there. I do however, disagree with the Hero's Journey assessment on different grounds though, in that the arc applies to the Commander's entire team rather than the commander specifically.

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@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:Wonder if the Spirits of the Wild could come into play with Jormag’s energy. They seem to talk about how the spirts have an endless supply of magic. Then like Aurene and potentially the Pale Tree with the Sylvari, share the magic with the Norn.The Pale Tree and the Spirits would make for a rather logical dragon replacements in the narrative.-Aurene replaces Kralk-The Spirits replace Jormag-The Pale Tree replaces Mordremoth-Have Kuunavang replace BubblesZhaitan and Primordus can go shove it.

If Kralkatorrik can resurrect the Shatterer, which at the end of the meta, Shatterered and use death magic to bring it back. I wonder if Aurene, who still has the death spectrum inside her to resurrect her brother, Vlast and thus give us a dragon that can has death magic spectrum. Then we replace Zhaitan.

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@Tyson.5160 said:If Kralkatorrik can resurrect the Shatterer, which at the end of the meta, Shatterered and use death magic to bring it back. I wonder if Aurene, who still has the death spectrum inside her to resurrect her brother, Vlast and thus give us a dragon that can has death magic spectrum. Then we replace Zhaitan.The Shatterer was just an artificial lifeform Kralk made. He could re rebuilt because he was never anything but rocks and magic.

Vlast, being a living entity, who exploded, is a different situation entirely.

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@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:If Kralkatorrik can resurrect the Shatterer, which at the end of the meta, Shatterered and use death magic to bring it back. I wonder if Aurene, who still has the death spectrum inside her to resurrect her brother, Vlast and thus give us a dragon that can has death magic spectrum. Then we replace Zhaitan.The Shatterer was just an artificial lifeform Kralk made. He could re rebuilt because he was never anything but rocks and magic.

Vlast, being a living entity, who exploded, is a different situation entirely.

I suppose that just leaves Glint, who’s corpse is still intact.

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@Finalfreefall.8247 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:I mean, if you generalize the plot down to the point of "found enemy, tried to fight enemy, had setback, recovered, tried to fight enemy again, succeeded" you're kinda more or less described the Hero's Journey in less words. At that level of generalization, you described
every plot with external conflict
, not just GW2's expansions.

But "entering the Maguuma Jungle with a fleet that gets wiped out, then gathering the remnants of that army with some help from locals, locating and securing a dragon egg, seeking out ancient asuran city for means to destroy the Elder Dragon, then chasing down captured allies and happening upon the Elder Dragon's lair and kills it" is
very different
from "entering the Crystal Dragon alone, meeting a few old friends there, hunting down a rogue god, witnessing an ancient dragon's death, seeking out a god, getting ambushed and killed by rogue god who takes our baby dragon, get resurrected then tricks an army to fight for them as they enter a prepared battle against rogue god beneath the gaze of an Elder Dragon the player must save while also saving, then fighting alongside, out baby dragon".

Yes. 99% there. The quibbles that I raised with the plot was that "We went after Balthazar with no real plan, died, undied, and just when we went in for round 2 Rytlock handed us his sword"." Which can be summed up as "Stupid Commander, Lucky Commander, Deus Ex Machina". The reasoning behind the army bit was aggravated sarcasm which seems to have sidetracked my point significantly and I apologize for time spent there. I do however, disagree with the Hero's Journey assessment on different grounds though, in that the arc applies to the Commander's entire team rather than the commander specifically.

To be fair, "winging it" is kinda what the Commander does, because the few times they do make a plan, it doesn't work anyways. They didn't really make a plan for Zhaitan, or Scarlet, or Mordremoth, or Balthazar, or Kralkatorrik. Usually because whatever plan they made initially failed, or it became such a dire and immediate threat that they don't have time for the plan.

The Commander has two core character traits:

  • Improvisation
  • Teamwork

When the Commander doesn't have a team at their back, they fail. When they have a plan made up, the plan somehow gets messed up.

I'd not really consider this a failing in the storytelling, since it shows that the Commander is great at certain things, and shitty at other things, and that's how everyone is.

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@"Tyson.5160" said:If Kralkatorrik can resurrect the Shatterer, which at the end of the meta, Shatterered and use death magic to bring it back. I wonder if Aurene, who still has the death spectrum inside her to resurrect her brother, Vlast and thus give us a dragon that can has death magic spectrum. Then we replace Zhaitan.The Shatterer was just an artificial lifeform Kralk made. He could re rebuilt because he was never anything but rocks and magic.

Vlast, being a living entity, who exploded, is a different situation entirely.

To be fair though, the Crystal Dragon family are pretty much crystal ("rocks") and magic too.

But yeah, I doubt Aurene will be Death-Branding Glint or Vlast. Firstly because it'd probably be disrespectful, secondly because their souls are already off in the Mists and corrupting corpses != resurrection.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:I mean, if you generalize the plot down to the point of "found enemy, tried to fight enemy, had setback, recovered, tried to fight enemy again, succeeded" you're kinda more or less described the Hero's Journey in less words. At that level of generalization, you described
every plot with external conflict
, not just GW2's expansions.

But "entering the Maguuma Jungle with a fleet that gets wiped out, then gathering the remnants of that army with some help from locals, locating and securing a dragon egg, seeking out ancient asuran city for means to destroy the Elder Dragon, then chasing down captured allies and happening upon the Elder Dragon's lair and kills it" is
very different
from "entering the Crystal Dragon alone, meeting a few old friends there, hunting down a rogue god, witnessing an ancient dragon's death, seeking out a god, getting ambushed and killed by rogue god who takes our baby dragon, get resurrected then tricks an army to fight for them as they enter a prepared battle against rogue god beneath the gaze of an Elder Dragon the player must save while also saving, then fighting alongside, out baby dragon".

Yes. 99% there. The quibbles that I raised with the plot was that "We went after Balthazar with no real plan, died, undied, and just when we went in for round 2 Rytlock handed us his sword"." Which can be summed up as "Stupid Commander, Lucky Commander, Deus Ex Machina". The reasoning behind the army bit was aggravated sarcasm which seems to have sidetracked my point significantly and I apologize for time spent there. I do however, disagree with the Hero's Journey assessment on different grounds though, in that the arc applies to the Commander's entire team rather than the commander specifically.

To be fair, "winging it" is kinda what the Commander does, because the few times they
do
make a plan, it doesn't work anyways. They didn't really make a plan for Zhaitan, or Scarlet, or Mordremoth, or Balthazar, or Kralkatorrik. Usually because whatever plan they made initially failed, or it became such a dire and immediate threat that they don't have
time
for the plan.

The Commander has two core character traits:
  • Improvisation
  • Teamwork

When the Commander doesn't have a team at their back, they fail. When they have a plan made up, the plan somehow gets messed up.

I'd not really consider this a failing in the storytelling, since it shows that the Commander is great at certain things, and kitten at other things, and that's how
everyone
is.

@"Tyson.5160" said:If Kralkatorrik can resurrect the Shatterer, which at the end of the meta, Shatterered and use death magic to bring it back. I wonder if Aurene, who still has the death spectrum inside her to resurrect her brother, Vlast and thus give us a dragon that can has death magic spectrum. Then we replace Zhaitan.The Shatterer was just an artificial lifeform Kralk made. He could re rebuilt because he was never anything but rocks and magic.

Vlast, being a living entity, who exploded, is a different situation entirely.

To be fair though, the Crystal Dragon family are pretty much crystal ("rocks") and magic too.

But yeah, I doubt Aurene will be Death-Branding Glint or Vlast. Firstly because it'd probably be disrespectful, secondly because their souls are already off in the Mists and corrupting corpses != resurrection.

Then I guess there won’t be a replacement for Zhaitan, unless Tequatl gets cleansed like Glint...

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:Then I guess there won’t be a replacement for Zhaitan, unless Tequatl gets cleansed like Glint...

Tequatl canonically dies in Season 1, as part of Rytlock's tasks for Rox in joining the Stone warband. It was gaining power at that point, and theoretically on the way to replacing Zhaitan when killed for good.

I’m not sure then, another rando undead dragon, which seems kinda silly now that I think about it.

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@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

To be fair, "winging it" is kinda what the Commander does, because the few times they do make a plan, it doesn't work anyways. They didn't really make a plan for Zhaitan, or Scarlet, or Mordremoth, or Balthazar, or Kralkatorrik. Usually because whatever plan they made initially failed, or it became such a dire and immediate threat that they don't have time for the plan.

The Commander has two core character traits:

  • Improvisation
  • Teamwork

When the Commander doesn't have a team at their back, they fail. When they have a plan made up, the plan somehow gets messed up.

I'd not really consider this a failing in the storytelling, since it shows that the Commander is great at certain things, and kitten at other things, and that's how everyone is.

I do disagree with this. The plot comes off as rewarding what would by all rights be suicidal decisions with plot armor. Being bad at plans is not the same as being good at improvisation. And the commander did fine without a team early on.

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@"Finalfreefall.8247" said:Disagree. It comes off as rewarding what would by all rights be suicidal decisions with plot armor. Making bad decisions is not the same as being good at improvisation. And the commander did fine without a team early on.

The Commander always had a partner, or an army. Even in chapter 1, they had their Destiny's Edge mentor figure as a partner, if not others (as well). They didn't have a full guild, but they did have someone or someones.

As for making "bad decisions". Honestly, I wouldn't call act 3 of PoF a "bad idea". The Commander gathered an army to take on Balthazar - doing a 1v1 with the god a second time was not part of the plan - to which, allow me to point back to "when the Commander makes a plan, they don't work and they have to improvise to make it work". The plan was to use the army to fight against Balthazar, not use the army to distract Balthazar's army and then 1v1 him bro in front of another Elder Dragon like their first (third) encounter.

And, technically speaking, the Commander didn't 1v1 Balthazar at the end of PoF. They had Aurene to provide protection, which is why Balthazar couldn't kill the Commander again so easily (that, and the element of surprise of "I thought you were dead!").

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"Finalfreefall.8247" said:Disagree. It comes off as rewarding what would by all rights be suicidal decisions with plot armor. Making bad decisions is not the same as being good at improvisation. And the commander did fine without a team early on.

The Commander always had a partner, or an army. Even in chapter 1, they had their Destiny's Edge mentor figure as a partner, if not others (as well). They didn't have a full guild, but they did have someone or someones.

Wait. Renown hearts aren't canon? I'll still disagree on the basis that characters like Quinn exist as mission objectives more than teammates, and that the Destiny's Edge Mentor was more of a social boon, but that's interesting.

As for making "bad decisions". Honestly, I wouldn't call act 3 of PoF a "bad idea". The Commander gathered an army to take on Balthazar - doing a 1v1 with the god a second time was not part of the plan - to which, allow me to point back to "when the Commander makes a plan, they don't work and they have to improvise to make it work". The plan was to use the army to fight against Balthazar, not use the army to distract Balthazar's army and then 1v1 him bro in front of another Elder Dragon like their first (third) encounter.

"Alright mesmer'd team. We've blown up the Kralk draining device and we're going to walk out of here. No need to risk our best shot at Dragon Energy containment in a fight against a combatant that already killed her more prepared, arguably stronger and definitely more experienced sibling."

Worst scenario: Kralk gets a case of demigodhood. (which I think happened anyway)

And, technically speaking, the Commander didn't 1v1 Balthazar at the end of PoF. They had Aurene to provide protection, which is why Balthazar couldn't kill the Commander again so easily (that, and the element of surprise of "I thought you were dead!").

A really, really, really, dumb idea to let the best dragon containment option stay near the enemy. One lucky shot on Aurene would have been the end of it.

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