GUARDians with Barrier [Future Elite Specs Thread]

[GuriGashi.5617]

I can‘t be the only one who thinks it doesn‘t make any logical sense whatsoever for Guardians to not have barrier. I hope the next Guardian Elite Spec gets access to barrier for the team like a proper support class which got even named after the role it is meant to fulfill. A new elite spec trait that grants barrier through symbol ticks or aegis breaks would be a way that would offer great synergy and would make PvE, WvW and PvP a new game experience for players of the class, considering Guardians have had one disadvantage since release - little HP

What are some of your ideas for new elite specs for certain classes you would love to get from the next expansion?

[otto.5684]

Absolutely not. Guardian in general, FB more specifically, offer much support. Another support would be extremely redundant. And just doing barrier is not differentiate it enough to be worth its and pretty useless in PvE.

[GuriGashi.5617]

@otto.5684 said:Absolutely not. Guardian in general, FB more specifically, offer much support. Another support would be extremely redundant. And just doing barrier is not differentiate it enough to be worth its and pretty useless in PvE.

I can’t agree and tbh I don‘t know what you mean by that when Firebrand got literally kicked out of all gamemodes both in EU and NA (a little less) since the February patch, where everything across it‘s toolbar from direct damage, to heals, boon durations and burn damage got nerfed in the double digit region and is outshined by Core Guardian in every possible way right now.

[otto.5684]

@snoow.1694 said:

@otto.5684 said:Absolutely not. Guardian in general, FB more specifically, offer much support. Another support would be extremely redundant. And just doing barrier is not differentiate it enough to be worth its and pretty useless in PvE.

I don‘t know what you are saying when Firebrand got kicked out of all gamemodes both in NA and EU since the February patch and is outshined by Core Guardian in every possible way right now.

Ya, but clearly elites are not designed based on 3-6 month sPvP performance. Also, I dunno how to tell you this, there are 2 other game modes in the game. And I know this might be an earth shattering surprise, PvE is the main driver here. If you are trying to sell me that FB does not have support In PvE, that is like to convince me to sell my car to you for $10.

If you have issues with guardian and FB performance (I definitely agree with you) post in guardian forums or sPvP forums. Regardless, this has nothing to do with elites design. We already have support in core and in FB. Guardian does not need more support oriented stuff.

[GuriGashi.5617]

@otto.5684 said:

@snoow.1694 said:

@otto.5684 said:Absolutely not. Guardian in general, FB more specifically, offer much support. Another support would be extremely redundant. And just doing barrier is not differentiate it enough to be worth its and pretty useless in PvE.

I don‘t know what you are saying when Firebrand got kicked out of all gamemodes both in NA and EU since the February patch and is outshined by Core Guardian in every possible way right now.

Ya, but clearly elites are not designed based on 3-6 month sPvP performance. Also, I dunno how to tell you this, there are 2 other game modes in the game. And I know this might be an earth shattering surprise, PvE is the main driver here. If you are trying to sell me that FB does not have support In PvE, that is like to convince me to sell my car to you for $10.

If you have issues with guardian and FB performance (I definitely agree with you) post in guardian forums or sPvP forums. Regardless, this has nothing to do with elites design. We already have support in core and in FB. Guardian does not need more support oriented stuff.

Well, I am generally interested in it as a fun thing to play with for all game modes. You went over the balancing aspect and balancing in PvE isn‘t as much of an importance as it is in PvP or WvW, since in PvE we play with each other and not against each other. As long as you can clear events by picking up a random combination of classes the overall gameplay isn‘t impacted much.

And no, I am generally asking what people want to be added to certain classes for the next expansion, based on the game mode they play, not a PvP only view

[otto.5684]

@snoow.1694 said:

@otto.5684 said:

@snoow.1694 said:

@otto.5684 said:Absolutely not. Guardian in general, FB more specifically, offer much support. Another support would be extremely redundant. And just doing barrier is not differentiate it enough to be worth its and pretty useless in PvE.

I don‘t know what you are saying when Firebrand got kicked out of all gamemodes both in NA and EU since the February patch and is outshined by Core Guardian in every possible way right now.

Ya, but clearly elites are not designed based on 3-6 month sPvP performance. Also, I dunno how to tell you this, there are 2 other game modes in the game. And I know this might be an earth shattering surprise, PvE is the main driver here. If you are trying to sell me that FB does not have support In PvE, that is like to convince me to sell my car to you for $10.

If you have issues with guardian and FB performance (I definitely agree with you) post in guardian forums or sPvP forums. Regardless, this has nothing to do with elites design. We already have support in core and in FB. Guardian does not need more support oriented stuff.

Well you you went over the balancing aspect and balancing in PvE isn‘t as much of an importance as it is in PvP or WvW, because in PvE we play

with

each other. As long as you can clear events by picking up a random combinations of classes the overall gameplay isn‘t impacted much.

And no, I am generally asking what people want to be added to certain classes for the next expansion, based on the game mode they play, not a PvP only view

What guardian is lacking is mobility. An elite with mobility options, would offer a different game play. Single target damage could be also tied to it. everything else is covered by core, DH or FB.

The point for performance, it does not matter for elite designs and performance itself changes overtime, so it has no impact on elite design.

[GuriGashi.5617]

@otto.5684 said:

@snoow.1694 said:

@otto.5684 said:

@snoow.1694 said:

@otto.5684 said:Absolutely not. Guardian in general, FB more specifically, offer much support. Another support would be extremely redundant. And just doing barrier is not differentiate it enough to be worth its and pretty useless in PvE.

I don‘t know what you are saying when Firebrand got kicked out of all gamemodes both in NA and EU since the February patch and is outshined by Core Guardian in every possible way right now.

Ya, but clearly elites are not designed based on 3-6 month sPvP performance. Also, I dunno how to tell you this, there are 2 other game modes in the game. And I know this might be an earth shattering surprise, PvE is the main driver here. If you are trying to sell me that FB does not have support In PvE, that is like to convince me to sell my car to you for $10.

If you have issues with guardian and FB performance (I definitely agree with you) post in guardian forums or sPvP forums. Regardless, this has nothing to do with elites design. We already have support in core and in FB. Guardian does not need more support oriented stuff.

Well you you went over the balancing aspect and balancing in PvE isn‘t as much of an importance as it is in PvP or WvW, because in PvE we play

with

each other. As long as you can clear events by picking up a random combinations of classes the overall gameplay isn‘t impacted much.

And no, I am generally asking what people want to be added to certain classes for the next expansion, based on the game mode they play, not a PvP only view

What guardian is lacking is mobility. An elite with mobility options, would offer a different game play. Single target damage could be also tied to it. everything else is covered by core, DH or FB.

The point for performance, it does not matter for elite designs and performance itself changes overtime, so it has no impact on elite design.

Guardians have also good single target damage on hammer or LB while playing DH, what GUARDians are lacking is a viable support spec at the moment. Again, Firebrand offers support but all it’s damage/heal/duration modifiers got nerfed into oblivion. It is, at this point in time, only still played in certain scenarios and Core Guardians really are in terms of support really just boon machines that heal mostly themselves alot, but don’t offer much of general support other than that. Playing Guardian really doesn‘t feel like the way it is designed to be played.Barrier would also be high in demand because of the generally low health pool Guardians have to all other classes to begin with. It would be a blessing

[otto.5684]

Again, you are confusing sPvP current performance with class design. They are not the same thing or even correlated. Why do we have to go over this again?

Plus the entire sPvP since Feb has been a dumbster Fire. It is literally a beta mode. Currently, it had even a lower value than WvW. Even talking about balance in the current meta (forget future design) is meaningless.

And no, guardian is already stacked on support options. If some of these options are currently lacking in some game modes, then that need to be addressed. That is basis for designing anything new.

Wait, someone still uses hammer?! And sadly most of the damage in PvE comes from the symbol and AA, so not, it is not a single target weapon. Scepter is closest thing guardian has for single target weapon: I am expecting next weapon to be OH anyway.

[GuriGashi.5617]

@otto.5684 said:Again, you are confusing sPvP current performance with class design. They are not the same thing or even correlated. Why do we have to go over this again?

Plus the entire sPvP since Feb has been a dumbster Fire. It is literally a beta mode. Currently, it had even a lower value than WvW. Even talking about balance in the current meta (forget future design) is meaningless.

And no, guardian is already stacked on support options. If some of these options are currently lacking in some game modes, then that need to be addressed. That is basis for designing anything new.

Again no, I am NOT talking about sPvP in ANY FORM, I don‘t get what in „I want to have a larger health pool“ or „modifiers got nerfed“ implies to you that I am talking about sPvP. World bosses can hit for 15K in PvE, that is a literal one shot on some Guard specs, where most classes could make the same mistake in walking into an attack and would survive with a slither of health. It is an idea considering the general design of Guardians, „ current sPvP performance“ has nothing to do with the low HP pool and one dimensional way of supporting others Guards have had since release

Also good to know your opinion, but still I wish for barrier on GUARDians, since it would make sense logically considering the idea of the class and since Firebrand went down the drain :) pls make it happen @ArenaNet <3

[SdoRy.6839]

@snoow.1694 you dont seem to understand. guardian has a full team support elite spec, the firebrand. making another team support oriented elite spec that has access to barrier as its only differentiation towards firebrand is redundant. and hes talking about pvp because you keep talking about firebrand being nerfed to oblivion, which is only true for pvp. in pve, guardian (or more specifically firebrand) is still absolutely in every meta comp for raids, fractals and dungeons, because of its - you guessed it - ridiculous team support boon healing capabilities...

[Ultramex.1506]

@"snoow.1694" said:Again, Firebrand offers support but all it’s damage/heal/duration modifiers got nerfed into oblivion. It is, at this point in time, only still played in certain scenarios and Core Guardians really are in terms of support really just boon machines that heal mostly themselves alot, but don’t offer much of general support other than that. Playing Guardian really doesn‘t feel like the way it is designed to be played.

I have a question for this statement, so because Firebrand heal has been nerfed, you want another support spec to replace it? What make you confident that Barrier won't be nerfed into oblivion too? Firebrand was so "effective" that it got nerfed, i doubt your Barrier spec won't share the same fate.

[Kodama.6453]

What guardian is lacking is a bruiser elite spec.

If you look at the elite specs we got so far for every class, we can seperate them roughly in 3 different types: damage dealers, bruisers, supports.Guardian got 2 of these covered: damage dealer (dragon hunter) and support (firebrand). That firebrand got nerfed in PvP does not change the fact that the elite spec is primarily designed to be a support class.

Barrier might work and could also cover the low health pool you mention, but this barrier application should be just for themselves, similar like scrapper is working. I think another approach might be better, tho, since scrappers are already the barrier bruisers. Maybe they can give guardians other defensive mechanics instead, like giving them more access to mobility and evades.

[Makion.3457]

@Kodama.6453 said:What guardian is lacking is a bruiser elite spec.

If you look at the elite specs we got so far for every class, we can seperate them roughly in 3 different types: damage dealers, bruisers, supports.Guardian got 2 of these covered: damage dealer (dragon hunter) and support (firebrand). That firebrand got nerfed in PvP does not change the fact that the elite spec is primarily designed to be a support class.

Barrier might work and could also cover the low health pool you mention, but this barrier application should be just for themselves, similar like scrapper is working. I think another approach might be better, tho, since scrappers are already the barrier bruisers. Maybe they can give guardians other defensive mechanics instead, like giving them more access to mobility and evades.

I think a Spear Guardian would be really cool as a bruiser, imagine this: The spear is used to stab multiple times the oponent and do crits and could be used with a shield to give more defense, It could also have a charged attack and a feint, perhaps a condi like vulnerability since the spear could penetrate defenses, insta recipe for a Guardian bruiser :)

[quaniesan.8497]

Next Elite spec should be Dual dagger guardian who burns the cr--- out of you with passive virtue of justice through super fast attack speed and a symbol that pulses resistance so he can stab enemy in peace.

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

@Kodama.6453 said:What guardian is lacking is a bruiser elite spec.

If you look at the elite specs we got so far for every class, we can seperate them roughly in 3 different types: damage dealers, bruisers, supports.Guardian got 2 of these covered: damage dealer (dragon hunter) and support (firebrand). That firebrand got nerfed in PvP does not change the fact that the elite spec is primarily designed to be a support class.

Barrier might work and could also cover the low health pool you mention, but this barrier application should be just for themselves, similar like scrapper is working. I think another approach might be better, tho, since scrappers are already the barrier bruisers. Maybe they can give guardians other defensive mechanics instead, like giving them more access to mobility and evades.

I agree, I have been thinking about this quite a bit and I think a evade/mobility spec would be perfect for Guard. Read on below ;)

@Altion.9576 said:

@Kodama.6453 said:What guardian is lacking is a bruiser elite spec.

If you look at the elite specs we got so far for every class, we can seperate them roughly in 3 different types: damage dealers, bruisers, supports.Guardian got 2 of these covered: damage dealer (dragon hunter) and support (firebrand). That firebrand got nerfed in PvP does not change the fact that the elite spec is primarily designed to be a support class.

Barrier might work and could also cover the low health pool you mention, but this barrier application should be just for themselves, similar like scrapper is working. I think another approach might be better, tho, since scrappers are already the barrier bruisers. Maybe they can give guardians other defensive mechanics instead, like giving them more access to mobility and evades.

I think a Spear Guardian would be really cool as a bruiser, imagine this: The spear is used to stab multiple times the oponent and do crits and could be used with a shield to give more defense, It could also have a charged attack and a feint, perhaps a condi like vulnerability since the spear could penetrate defenses, insta recipe for a Guardian bruiser :)

This is exactly what I was thinking about, Guard with land spear. Leaps, evades, multi-hit attacks and a 260 range, so double melee. Plus, you can throw some traits in there that have cool interactions like short duration Super Speed on evade or short duration poison on crit and I mean like 10 stacks for 0.5s, so you can maintain a large stack, but only if attacking constantly. As for the barrier idea, one of the spear skills could give it conditionally, like gain barrier if an attack was or was not not evaded. Or perhaps interact with Aegis to give barrier if Aegis does/does not expire without blocking an attack (since you'll be evading).

Finally, I think the virtues could become toggle-on Preparations that enhance your attacks and pulse a boon. Justice does additional crit damage and pulses Fury, Resolve heals and pulses Resistance and Courage grants Barrier and Super Speed.

Utility skills: Stances.

[Noah Salazar.5430]

nice idea, but like other ppl mentioned, it culd be nice to see other elit spec diferent than support

glascannon dps or tanky brusher (like scrapper) to not have x3 support spec in row

[otto.5684]

@Kodama.6453 said:What guardian is lacking is a bruiser elite spec.

If you look at the elite specs we got so far for every class, we can seperate them roughly in 3 different types: damage dealers, bruisers, supports.Guardian got 2 of these covered: damage dealer (dragon hunter) and support (firebrand). That firebrand got nerfed in PvP does not change the fact that the elite spec is primarily designed to be a support class.

Barrier might work and could also cover the low health pool you mention, but this barrier application should be just for themselves, similar like scrapper is working. I think another approach might be better, tho, since scrappers are already the barrier bruisers. Maybe they can give guardians other defensive mechanics instead, like giving them more access to mobility and evades.

DH is (was) somewhat of a bruiser build in sPvP. It was a weird mish mash of control, damage and healing. Before Feb patch, it was few tweaks from being fully competitive. Good old days ?

Is not FB symbol build a bruiser build, kinda?

I do not think guardian can ever have something like spell breaker, due to the significant healing.

[Kodama.6453]

@otto.5684 said:

@"Kodama.6453" said:What guardian is lacking is a bruiser elite spec.

If you look at the elite specs we got so far for every class, we can seperate them roughly in 3 different types: damage dealers, bruisers, supports.Guardian got 2 of these covered: damage dealer (dragon hunter) and support (firebrand). That firebrand got nerfed in PvP does not change the fact that the elite spec is primarily designed to be a support class.

Barrier might work and could also cover the low health pool you mention, but this barrier application should be just for themselves, similar like scrapper is working. I think another approach might be better, tho, since scrappers are already the barrier bruisers. Maybe they can give guardians other defensive mechanics instead, like giving them more access to mobility and evades.

DH is (was) somewhat of a bruiser build in sPvP. It was a weird mish mash of control, damage and healing. Before Feb patch, it was few tweaks from being fully competitive. Good old days ?

Is not FB symbol build a bruiser build, kinda?

I do not think guardian can ever have something like spell breaker, due to the significant healing.

You can basically make a bruiser build out of everything.But the difference is if the elite spec is really designed to be a bruiser.

Another example of something similar is scrapper. Looking at these archetypes, engineer already has the bruiser spec (scrapper) and damage spec (holosmith). What is missing is a dedicated support spec that gives us boon support, healing, team barrier, or any other group sustain they can come up with.That scrapper is played as a support in WvW doesn't change that. Scrapper is just used as a support because engineer doesn't have a dedicated support spec yet. And scrapper at least adds some supportive value through the gyros, but you can see that it doesn't match a dedicated support since that build even has dead traits. Impact savant gives the scrapper barrier for dealing power damage, but support scrapper are not attacking, but camping med kit for the healing.

Same for other classes. Dragon hunter is designed as a damage spec and firebrand is designed as a support spec. People are using them in bruiser like builds simply because guardian doesn't have a dedicated bruiser spec yet, which is what they should get next.

How exactly that might work out, we have to see. Personally, I think it could be interesting to play with some kind of "inquisitor" theme that lets guardians cc enemies with the fear condition and maybe also getting access to boon removal. Adding more mobility would also be great.

[draxynnic.3719]

I see where you're coming from, but I'm inclined to agree with the statements that firebrand is the spec that's intended to have support covered.

One thing I would consider, though, is to have a small amount of barrier on Tome of Resolve skill 1. It was intended to be a skill that offers a protective effect, but being able to spam Aegis was sufficiently unbalanced that it got removed pretty quickly. A small amount of barrier could give Unflinching Charge back a small protective effect, albeit one that doesn't negate the effect of hits altogether and which requires stat investment to get the most from.

[crazyhusky.2985]

I agree Guardians should have access to barrier but only Dragonhunter. Barrier would suit Dragonhunter more than Firebrand.Dragonhunter's F3's is a barrier in front of you. So it should have access to the barrier boon in some way.Firebrands literally have everything except barrier and Alcarity, Don't give it to Firebrand. Which mean that Base guardian can't have access to it either.

You can tie to the Barrier to Dragonhunter's virtues and a few other traits.

Shield of courageVirtue: Grants aegis periodically. When Aegis broken gain Barrier. (Passive Barrier gain refreshes when the virtue aegis does so you don't get tons of it)Activate: Grant aegis and barrier to nearby allies and create a shield in front of you that blocks attacks. When the shield expires gain barrier on yourself.

Wings of resolveVirtue: Regenerates health.Activate: Gain barrier then Leap to a target area, healing yourself and allies in the area.(if they aren't going to put a dodge on it despite you're literally leaping in the air as if you're dodge something, then they could at least give us barrier on it before the jump so we are more likely to survive)

Hunter's verdictPull all enemies tethered by the Spear of Justice to you, breaking the link and turning it into barrier for yourself.

Also on a few other things

Fragments of FaithTrap. Lay a trap that deals damage and unleashes multiple fragments into the area when triggered. Each fragment grants aegis to allies, If you or they already have aegis get gain barrier instead. (it should give barrier on activation too)

Pure of SightDeal bonus damage based on your distance to the enemy. Gain Barrier when hitting foes beyond the thereshold (foes over 600 range)

BulwarkShield of Courage gains increased radius and duration, and the increase strenght of the barriers from the Shield of courage. (both passive and active)

Heavy lightGain stability and Barrier when disabling an enemy. Deal increased damage to disabled foes.

[otto.5684]

@crazyhusky.2985 I am not sure why give DH barrier. DH has no sustainability issues in PvE or PvP, so why buff its sustainability? It lacks damage in sPvP (so does power core), so that is what needs buffing.

Beside the additional support/barrier Elite, which is redundant and should not happen, guardian should not have access to barrier. There was a discussion a while back regarding Barrier for guardian. to summarize, what is the point of having extra HP when you block damage? They are two defensive systems that do not work with each other. Even if you think guardian is lacking in sustainability, the solution will be to either improve aegis access or improve healing.

[Fueki.4753]

A mobility-based Guardian Elite spec that create barrier based on damage dealt could work fine.

But, for the love of Dwayna, do not shove barrier into Core Guardians, Dragon Hunters or Firebrands.