Perceived toxicity

[Ooops.8694]

@"Teratus.2859" said:As I said in another post i've first hand experience with that by making "All Welcome" groups and having LFG's going for hours without even half a party forming.It's because there is no "casual" community pressence in raids like there is with dungeons and fractals and that is a big problem in this game where the vast majority of the playerbase is described as "casual".Ok, i counter your first hand experience with my own. After reading your post i logged into the game, took a few fast screenshots and logged out. All in less than 2 minutes...So here are 3 of the 11 lfg posts up about 10 minutes! ago:That's no requirements there at all, aside from one requirering you to know how to play a specific role at Qadim. And 2 of these filled up in the few seconds it took me to read all lfgs.

Are we sure we're playing the same Guild Wars 2?

(And as one random time is of course of very low statistical relevance, i will just add some more in an hour or 2...)

PS: I hope you meant to say "like there WAS with dungeons" as that's the lfg really dead.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

@"Iris Ng.9845" said:I have this magic trick that I wish to share with everyone. It applies to joining any kinds of group content, even raids and PvP, and it also works out for any social gatherings, too. When you join any groups of people, be courteous, humble, respectful and more importantly, compliant to the wish of that group. No one trashes a person with a positive attitude. If you're not a good fit for the group, regretfully you have to leave. But there are other fish in the sea. Keep looking and you'll find your match. Make your own group and more power to you.

Tragedies always happen when people force ideas onto each other, or their way into a relationship. The perceived toxicity roots in their prejudice and judgemental minds. No one and nothing will change unless people's mindset change.

I have seen this type of ranting post a lot since Dungeons were mastered and speed cleared. People came to the forum with a clear divisive "them" vs. "us" mentality and a strong conviction to smite the other down with their words, even trying to bend ANet to their side to deliver the divine judgement to the opposing faction. After a few years, what comes out of it? Most has left the game, new people come in, the topic has drifted to the new subject of elitism: raids. But, but what about those victims of then dungeon elitism? Have they got the clears they deserve now that all their enemy elitists are purged? Now to the same people who feel raid toxicity has exclude them from doing the content: What do you truly want? The content, the acceptance to someone else's group, or the satisfaction that "if it's not mine, none shall have it"? If it's the content, start working towards it on your own pace and few really bothers you if you set your eyes on the goal. If it's the acceptance, start working towards being an asset of the team, mostly attitude and some skills to back your confidence. If it's the Doomsday, well, be your bitter person. Nothing will change. Same old, same old.

Just a shower of thoughts.

Tl;dr

"Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend."

"Tragedies always happen when people force ideas onto each other, or their way into a relationship. The perceived toxicity roots in their prejudice and judgemental minds. No one and nothing will change unless people's mindset change."

An interesting statement, which is proceeded by an incompatible premise:

"When you join any groups of people, be courteous, humble, respectful and more importantly, compliant to the wish of that group. No one trashes a person with a positive attitude. If you're not a good fit for the group, regretfully you have to leave."

This sounds more like:

"If you don't fit in the limited notions of how you should act, and how you should play, you aren't welcome here. Even though this is an online game and we're asking for help in a public medium instead of from our private mediums such as guilds."

This is literally a catch 22 situation you've created here. Tolerance and pleasantries to mask intolerance and rejection.

If you don't want to deal with people, stop putting yourself in situations where you have to deal with people. Its that simple. Then there's no toxicity on either side, and no one has to be upset, or waste any time. But the problem is you're wanting to play content that requires other people? Just as its someone's right to find training guilds, make their own LFG, its your right to walk away and not play it at all.

Especially in what's been regarded as the most cooperative and casual MMO of all time. Just play something else?

And then someone says, "but the devs gave me the tools to kick filthy casuals from my party, so I'm right to do so". Until one day you're the one whose kicked from a legitimate run, and lose all your rewards, just because someone else wanted to be a jerk.

You see, this can always go both ways. No matter what the subject, or the argument.

[Ooops.8694]

@"Ooops.8694" said:(And as one random time is of course of very low statistical relevance, i will just add some more in an hour or 2...)I guess these high requirements will forever wall me off from doing raids. (5 out of 14 lfg posts up when i logged in this time.)

Back in a few hours...

Edit: Ok, final round before i stop derailing this thread with facts.0:10 local time, only 5 groups left in the lfg tool, 2 of which are these:

[Oldyoung.6109]

0:10 local time, only 5 groups left in the lfg tool, 2 of which are these:

you must be on EU, NA is far more toxic and almost completely dead

View post on imgur.com

[Ooops.8694]

Please don't tell me we are doing all that arguing because we are really playing with two completely different playerbases? :o

[Cyninja.2954]

@Hannelore.8153 said:

@"Iris Ng.9845" said:I have this magic trick that I wish to share with everyone. It applies to joining any kinds of group content, even raids and PvP, and it also works out for any social gatherings, too. When you join any groups of people, be courteous, humble, respectful and more importantly, compliant to the wish of that group. No one trashes a person with a positive attitude. If you're not a good fit for the group, regretfully you have to leave. But there are other fish in the sea. Keep looking and you'll find your match. Make your own group and more power to you.

Tragedies always happen when people force ideas onto each other, or their way into a relationship. The perceived toxicity roots in their prejudice and judgemental minds. No one and nothing will change unless people's mindset change.

I have seen this type of ranting post a lot since Dungeons were mastered and speed cleared. People came to the forum with a clear divisive "them" vs. "us" mentality and a strong conviction to smite the other down with their words, even trying to bend ANet to their side to deliver the divine judgement to the opposing faction. After a few years, what comes out of it? Most has left the game, new people come in, the topic has drifted to the new subject of elitism: raids. But, but what about those victims of then dungeon elitism?

Have they got the clears they deserve now that all their enemy elitists are purged?

Now to the same people who feel raid toxicity has exclude them from doing the content:

What do you truly want? The content, the acceptance to someone else's group, or the satisfaction that "if it's not mine, none shall have it"?

If it's the content, start working towards it on your own pace and few really bothers you if you set your eyes on the goal. If it's the acceptance, start working towards being an asset of the team, mostly attitude and some skills to back your confidence. If it's the Doomsday, well, be your bitter person. Nothing will change. Same old, same old.

Just a shower of thoughts.

Tl;dr

"Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend."

"Tragedies always happen when people force ideas onto each other, or their way into a relationship. The perceived toxicity roots in their prejudice and judgemental minds. No one and nothing will change unless people's mindset change."

An interesting statement, which is proceeded by an incompatible premise:

"When you join any groups of people, be courteous, humble, respectful and more importantly,

compliant to the wish of that group

. No one trashes a person with a positive attitude. If you're not a good fit for the group,

regretfully you have to leave.

"

This sounds more like:

"If you don't fit in the limited notions of how you should act, and how you should play, you aren't welcome here. Even though this is an online game and we're asking for help in a public medium instead of from our private mediums such as guilds."

This is literally a catch 22 situation you've created here. Tolerance and pleasantries to mask intolerance and rejection.

If you don't want to deal with people, stop putting yourself in situations where you have to deal with people. Its that simple. Then there's no toxicity on either side, and no one has to be upset, or waste any time. But the problem is you're wanting to play content that requires other people? Just as its someone's right to find training guilds, make their own LFG, its your right to walk away and not play it at all.

Especially in what's been regarded as the most cooperative and casual MMO of all time. Just play something else?

And then someone says, "but the devs gave me the tools to kick filthy casuals from my party, so I'm right to do so". Until one day you're the one whose kicked from a legitimate run, and lose all your rewards, just because someone else wanted to be a jerk.

You see, this can always go both ways. No matter what the subject, or the argument.

No, it does not. Your entire premise leaves out WHO joins which group. Which is of essential relevance when talking about which rules or values apply, given the group was created with the premise of those values by whom ever or which ever group of people created it..

If someone joins or wants to join MY group, or the group I play with, which all have consent on how we want to play, we are not being toxic if we disallow dis-consent. The same applies the other way around, if I join someone else's group, I have to comply with their/the groups values/goals.

@Hannelore.8153 said:"If you don't fit in the limited notions of how you should act, and how you should play, you aren't welcome here. Even though this is an online game and we're asking for help in a public medium instead of from our private mediums such as guilds."

No, it doesn't. It does so only to someone with an inability to understand that the groups desire outweighs the individuals. Which is the case when groups with common goals form, no matter in which parts of life. If you want to work with others, you consent to the groups needs, that's how cooperation works.

@Hannelore.8153 said:This is literally a catch 22 situation you've created here. Tolerance and pleasantries to mask intolerance and rejection.

No, it's not.

As I have pointed out earlier in this thread:tolerance is not a one way street. If you expect others to be tolerant towards you, but do not extend the same to them, you are not being tolerant, you in fact being intolerant. I do believe I called it freedom of choice earlier.

[Shikaru.7618]

@"Hannelore.8153" said:There's alot to say about this subject, but I'll just say this.

I see this argument time and time again "new players are the problem", "newbies stop lying, stop deceiving, stop wasting time". Well, I ask you, how is a newer player supposed to know anything about the game, let alone all the unspoken rules and regulations of your LFG culture, which they have no way of finding out without playing the content, especially when they're not game rules and ArenaNet doesn't enforce them?

Here's the problem with veterans in this game: The game gives new players a key to their first car, a beat up old junker, and then when they drive up next to the other cars ready to start a race so they can gain experience, everyone asks "where's your Ferrari, and your awards?".

When new players can't present either of those things because they have no money, no experience and not prestige. they're told to just get lost. And then after a while they get tired of being told to get lost, so they start obfuscating details ("fake it until you make it") because they can't just magically make money, experience and prestige appear, like everyone wants, And then they're told that they're lying and deceiving.

You could just ignore it, race and win. I seriously doubt one player (even in 5man) is pulling down the whole group. This a myth brought on by the need to have someone to blame; shown by the ability of people to solo or 2man most content, heck you can even get through nearly all T3/T4 Fractals just by having 2-3 people with the right composition, a few deadweights doesn't ruin everything unless you're also deadweight.

You can run raids in Masterwork gear, but surely this one person is ruining /everything/ for you.

Let me try to translate the words coming out of your mouths: "I am completely dependant on a perfect team composition and near-perfect gameplay to clear content because I'm not able to adapt to weaknesses in myself or my team, or simply refuse to do so". Doesn't this sound alot like what you're accusing newer, "stubborn" players of, when in reality they're probably just struggling to understand?

This doesn't just affect raids btw. It affects all parts of the game, especially the competitive modes (PvP more than WvW, I guess).

The net result is that they can't get anywhere while vets complain their challenging content is dead. Whether you're right or wrong doesn't matter, but you're all partly to blame for where the game, and the community, have ended up.

There's no such thing as innocence, only varying degrees of guilt.

EDIT: Some edits for clarity.

Except a competitive race is not what a raid is. Raids are a cooperative experience where one member in the squad executing mechanics incorrectly can cause failure for the team. Its not akin to a newbie coming in a beater to race. Its akin to having a newbie be part of your pit stop crew filling your car with moonshine instead of proper fuel and then claiming the team is toxic when they kick them out. Conversely I would welcome newbies into raids if those that chronically failed mechanics or performed abysmally low dps in a dps slot had to give their race winnings to me when we successfully cleared. (Using your race analogy)

[Hesione.9412]

I'm curious: are people wanting to restrict their raid members to those of X level skill and above having to PUG raid members? Surely all this commentary is a non-starter w.r.t. non-PUGs.If it is a problem, then why are you having to do a PUG?

[Shadowmoon.7986]

Raids are suffering from the same problem as dungeons, because anet has abandoned them, getting new blood willing to try them gets very difficult.The best group cohesion is where everyone is at around the same skill level. When groups are uneven, animosity tends to breed. The problem with no new players in the format means new player do not have the critical mass to form complete groups with all roles, meaning they have to try to join groups with higher skill levels. As long as the kills happen, people do not mind carrying people in a pug setting, but if the run is constant wipes you know who is the blame. Also no one wants to let a person much lower of skill level into a static. If someone who is very low is in a static, it tends to break the entire group apart, or you are asked to leave.It is not like raids are not fun or worth doing, they just suffer like dungeons, which are still fun and worth doing.

[Iris Ng.9845]

@Hannelore.8153 said:

@"Iris Ng.9845" said:I have this magic trick that I wish to share with everyone. It applies to joining any kinds of group content, even raids and PvP, and it also works out for any social gatherings, too. When you join any groups of people, be courteous, humble, respectful and more importantly, compliant to the wish of that group. No one trashes a person with a positive attitude. If you're not a good fit for the group, regretfully you have to leave. But there are other fish in the sea. Keep looking and you'll find your match. Make your own group and more power to you.

Tragedies always happen when people force ideas onto each other, or their way into a relationship. The perceived toxicity roots in their prejudice and judgemental minds. No one and nothing will change unless people's mindset change.

I have seen this type of ranting post a lot since Dungeons were mastered and speed cleared. People came to the forum with a clear divisive "them" vs. "us" mentality and a strong conviction to smite the other down with their words, even trying to bend ANet to their side to deliver the divine judgement to the opposing faction. After a few years, what comes out of it? Most has left the game, new people come in, the topic has drifted to the new subject of elitism: raids. But, but what about those victims of then dungeon elitism?

Have they got the clears they deserve now that all their enemy elitists are purged?

Now to the same people who feel raid toxicity has exclude them from doing the content:

What do you truly want? The content, the acceptance to someone else's group, or the satisfaction that "if it's not mine, none shall have it"?

If it's the content, start working towards it on your own pace and few really bothers you if you set your eyes on the goal. If it's the acceptance, start working towards being an asset of the team, mostly attitude and some skills to back your confidence. If it's the Doomsday, well, be your bitter person. Nothing will change. Same old, same old.

Just a shower of thoughts.

Tl;dr

"Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend."

"Tragedies always happen when people force ideas onto each other, or their way into a relationship. The perceived toxicity roots in their prejudice and judgemental minds. No one and nothing will change unless people's mindset change."

An interesting statement, which is proceeded by an incompatible premise:

"When you join any groups of people, be courteous, humble, respectful and more importantly,

compliant to the wish of that group

. No one trashes a person with a positive attitude. If you're not a good fit for the group,

regretfully you have to leave.

"

This sounds more like:

"If you don't fit in the limited notions of how you should act, and how you should play, you aren't welcome here. Even though this is an online game and we're asking for help in a public medium instead of from our private mediums such as guilds."

This is literally a catch 22 situation you've created here. Tolerance and pleasantries to mask intolerance and rejection.

It's funny when you twist my words around like that. It just shows how negative someone can be dealing with rejection. There are many specific examples in the raid context: if a group wants to speedclear, it's reasonable for everyone to expect a certain level of experience in every individuals. If that group is a training, then they may expect the newbies to join discord, listen to the instructions and reaffirm that they understand and can perform the task. Is it not silly to feel entitled as a new raider not to conform to the demand of the group you're joining? Same would apply to real life job hunting. If the job requires someone to have 5 years in the field, the applicants would either need to meet the qualifications or simply look for another which either asks for less experience or offer training on hire. Now if you're on probation, you still have to follow protocols, report to your supervisors and complete your assigned tasks until you can work autonomously. Is it any different from being complying with your group's requirement?

If you don't want to deal with people, stop putting yourself in situations where you have to deal with people. Its that simple. Then there's no toxicity on either side, and no one has to be upset, or waste any time. But the problem is you're wanting to play content that requires other people? Just as its someone's right to find training guilds, make their own LFG, its your right to walk away and not play it at all.

I don't disagree with your statement. No one has to put up with anything. However, the raiding scene is not as nasty as how the forum warriors make it sound. Being pleasant will get people very very far. I'm speaking of my own experience in NA, knowing a lot of people in the circle and participate in many raid trainings since 2015. One of the then "new" players that I have taken training in 2016 is now a distinguished Dhuum clear record holder. By being nice, supportive and working hard, he got accepted into every hardcore groups, even invited to do selling. It's truly a magic trick in the socialization playbook.

Especially in what's been regarded as the most cooperative and casual MMO of all time. Just play something else?

If you're interested in getting into raids, I don't see why you have to play something else. There are many ways to work your schedules and find a group. But because you have to be respectful to other people, you'd rather not? Well, no one has to coax a loner into accepting the group either. It should be the other way around: working towards the common goal of the group.

And then someone says, "but the devs gave me the tools to kick filthy casuals from my party, so I'm right to do so". Until one day you're the one whose kicked from a legitimate run, and lose all your rewards, just because someone else wanted to be a jerk.

In my 7 years of running group content (I started learning and running dungeons in 2013. My training guild was Dungeon Mentor, if anyone still remembers), I did get kicked a few times. Some of them were jerks but there wasn't really any hard feelings. Because I could always join the next group and completed my goal. Over time, I rarely see those jerks again, much less remember their names. But friends I made during pugs, I have A LOT. I always remember the nicer ones, and to return their favor, I prioritize to help them or be there during their struggles.

You see, this can always go both ways. No matter what the subject, or the argument.

Exactly, mutual edifications happen in cooperative games. Being selfish and get rejected, or being a team player and get welcome to anywhere.

[Asum.4960]

@"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:Yes, not all raiders are toxic. But, most toxic players are raiders. So, there is still a necessary relationship there. If the majority of terrible interpersonal interactions happen with raiders, then it doesn't matter if most raiders aren't mean.

That's absolutely not my experience in the game though.

Are there just flat out toxic Hardcore players? Absolutely. But the amount of genuinely straight up toxic elitists I've met in years and years of playing that content is negligible and they have been fairly easy to spot and avoid (like some LFG's asking for even specific DPS professions because they are slightly ahead on the Golem currently I just skip over as that's usually a decent overly tryhard indicator).

What I've seen and experienced vastly more often is the toxic know it all/gods gift casual, proclaiming they don't have to learn, listen or play something content appropriate/useful to the group, presenting themselves above that, and then start flaming everybody who offers even the most constructive criticism/help as "toxic elitist".

Most, if not pretty much all, Raiders I know are very kind people more than willing to help out new players (often even going way out of their way to do so), if those players are just honest about their (lack of) qualifications and skill while showing a willingness to learn, are able to take constructive criticism and show ambition to better themselves to have fun in the content and working together with everybody else.

The vast majority of cases of toxicity I experienced in PvE started with the highly combative "I don't need to change or listen to you" while clearly massively underperforming to a point where it hinders even basic progression type of people, which many Raiders had to endure so many times and waste so much time on trying to get through with constructive help just to get flamed even harder as toxic, that they just grew tired of it and often times just resort to insta kicks when spotting those patterns of behavior at this point. Half the point of the invention of KP gating is to keep out those toxic players in favour of actual experienced Raiders willing to contribute and to have fun together as team.

Those are also often then the players who, after getting kicked for rudely wasting 9 other player's time, run around and spread everywhere how they were kicked "for no reason" by the "toxic Raiders" and how Raids is an awful place to be, when really they were the problem and instigator.

Now ofc the chance to encounter toxicity running around in the OW is lower than Raids, but that's simply because in OW generally just no one relies on each other or communicates in the first place, with usually no interactions taking place at all due to the bland nature of the content.That doesn't mean the Raid community is the problem though, as usually it's the clashing of mindsets that cause issues.

Point is, in my experience the "entitled casual" is much more toxic and prevalent across the game than the "elitist raider". But that's just my subjective experience, just like you have yours. But maybe don't state your PoV as self-evident fact which doesn't require arguments besides peculiar metaphors, because it really isn't.

Toxicity isn't something hardcore players have a monopoly on, in my experience quite the opposite.

[Zok.4956]

@Teratus.2859 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:This is why some people won't step into fractals, raids, or even dungeons. Raids coming to GW2 was a controversial move, and the original game was made without raids partly because Anet didn't want raid toxicity to be in the game. This is an age old problem, and there's not a lot of evidence that it has been fixed. Or even evidence that it can be fixed. MMOs aren't new. GW2 drew a large casual crowd at launch, full of people who had been burned by the hardcore players of other MMOs. They've learned their lesson, and all of that grief isn't worth the risk that this time, for no apparent reason, raids are a better place now. Hence, why I say the problem cannot be fixed.

The question is if there is evidence that this problem of yours "exist" or not, or rather if it's so common place as to be an actual problem. Provide your evidence that the problem exist before you look at evidence if the problem can be "fixed", is it an actual problem that exist, or perceived one? Is it a real issue, or an issue brought up by players who never experienced it, or have just second hand experience with it? "Hey I read on the internet that Raids in games are toxic, therefore it must be true"

I would argue that the low population of this content is pretty evident that the problem does exist.

I will not deny that there could be some problem, but the small population of this content is not evidence that there is a problem with "toxicity".

Challenging content, if it is not the core content (and "selling point") of a game, is always only for a small part of the player base of a game and will always have a small population compared to other content of a game. That is not a bad thing. It is what it is.

Some example of toxicity that had nothing todo with raids, fractals, dungeons, strikes:

A few days ago a commander kicked several players from his squad during the Drizzlewood open-world meta because they did not perform well enough (he said so in chat after kicking) and he hoped that they get a map disconnect so they will not be on "his map" anymore. It was a full map and we just 11111 zerged down the bosses. There was no skill required with the meta and it made not sense to kick underperformers. And it really does not matter much if your in a squad or not.

I was not one of the kicked ones, but I thought "what an idiot, why is he so toxic?".

I am sure that there is some toxic behaviour in challenging instanced content (like raids, fractals, ...) and I am also sure that "perceived toxicity" is often just caused by misunderstandings and the mixing of different player types that should not be mixed. But I also think this content (raids, fractals,...) is not the core of real toxic behaviour. The core of real toxic behaviour is just, that some players (a very, very small percentage of players) behave like idiots and people remember the one idiot very well, but not the 1000 others that are nice and friendly.

[Teratus.2859]

@Ooops.8694 said:

@"Teratus.2859" said:As I said in another post i've first hand experience with that by making "All Welcome" groups and having LFG's going for hours without even half a party forming.It's because there is no "casual" community pressence in raids like there is with dungeons and fractals and that is a big problem in this game where the vast majority of the playerbase is described as "casual".Ok, i counter your first hand experience with my own. After reading your post i logged into the game, took a few fast screenshots and logged out. All in less than 2 minutes...So here are 3 of the 11 lfg posts up about 10 minutes! ago:

That's no requirements there at all, aside from one requirering you to know how to play a specific role at Qadim. And 2 of these filled up in the few seconds it took me to read all lfgs.

Yes the knowing part of that being the thing there.First timers won't know that which is why they won't join groups unless there is an obvious invitation that they are welcome.. hence the "All Welcome" I use.Instead they'll likely go and try to find a training guild, but this clearly isn't a practice that suits everyone otherwise it would solve your pop problem.

The bigger problem being the loss of interest after all these years, how often do new raid players check raid LFG these days? pretty much never at this point hence my experience.

If hypothetically a new player sees those groups you capped, they're going to think those only apply to experienced raiders and not to them.That's why they wouldn't join them.

The question is how can we get those players to try the content.For dungeons and fractals it was simply a case of having 2 communities, the elite top tier one and the casual one.. everyone being catered to play the content how they want to play it.That's what I think raids needs.Atm raids only has the elite top tier one, and a lot of people who would have made a casual one got turned off because they wouldn't conform to that top tier when people started claiming that was the only way the content could be beaten.

PS: I hope you meant to say "like there WAS with dungeons" as that's the lfg really dead.

Yes that was a mistype on my part, apologies.

[panzerdragon.8791]

One user earlier did mention that the common fc lfg is playing with a completely different player base than the newbie raiders. I pug every single wing with general ease. My only sticking points might be largos SH as they require double the tanks. I lead my own raids most of time and my lfg reads as follows:

W5 fc LF exp tank, druid pusher , alac , condi dps

Guess my squad requires experience so it's toxic to newer raiders , and I specifically want a druid to deal with tds. This is the typical post of 99 percent of the lfg. Nothing really outstanding. If a newbie joins our squad we let em know that now is not the time to train and that's about it. Honestly easier bosses I don't really much about kp.

I started playing on day one in gw2 and have enjoyed dungeons , fractals , and then raiding. I only perceived toxic stuff from the forums. Raids were so hard back then , but look where we are now. The raiding community has no issues clearing content on the daily. If rewards were daily I would just spam raids all week.

I'm not sure what more newbie raiders want. All the build development for every build and class come from raiding or pvp. Even the open world builds are found on meta battle and are compromised of raid perfect builds with added functions for solo play. Hundreds and guides , videos, and guilds/ discords with training. The raiding community has done enough.

Perhaps people think requirements are toxic. That could really be it. To that I say it's too bad then. I've heard of the bear long now ranger meme , but never seen one. Does the bear ranger really fall into the target market for raids ? Can the ranger force people to deal with them ? Also no. When the bear ranger can't get a group or join groups they will now understand social market places. If you don't speak the language people won't talk to you. Same goes here. A person that wants to raid will have the equipment make the investment to train up. The lfg is mostly for experienced raiders. Pug groups do not have much comms so tried and true meta comps and strats provide easy clears.

[Teratus.2859]

@Zok.4956 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:This is why some people won't step into fractals, raids, or even dungeons. Raids coming to GW2 was a controversial move, and the original game was made without raids partly because Anet didn't want raid toxicity to be in the game. This is an age old problem, and there's not a lot of evidence that it has been fixed. Or even evidence that it can be fixed. MMOs aren't new. GW2 drew a large casual crowd at launch, full of people who had been burned by the hardcore players of other MMOs. They've learned their lesson, and all of that grief isn't worth the risk that this time, for no apparent reason, raids are a better place now. Hence, why I say the problem cannot be fixed.

The question is if there is evidence that this problem of yours "exist" or not, or rather if it's so common place as to be an actual problem. Provide your evidence that the problem exist before you look at evidence if the problem can be "fixed", is it an actual problem that exist, or perceived one? Is it a real issue, or an issue brought up by players who never experienced it, or have just second hand experience with it? "Hey I read on the internet that Raids in games are toxic, therefore it must be true"

I would argue that the low population of this content is pretty evident that the problem does exist.

I will not deny that there could be some problem, but the small population of this content is not evidence that there is a problem with "toxicity".

I appriciate that you're willing to do that.. I've had many discussions like these in the past with a number of raiders and few ever accepted it as a possibility, least from the discussions I've had.I also freely admit that the toxicity element isn't the only factor, there are definitely other barriers and things in place that contribute.But from my personal experience in the 8 years i've played this game elitist/toxic behaviour is a pretty big turn off for a lot of people when it comes to certain content.People just want to have fun and all that, so being attacked for something so often trivial does tend to salt some content and make people not want to play it anymore.Not that they don't want to play the content but just that they don't want to have that bad experience with a bad player again.

Challenging content, if it is not the core content (and "selling point") of a game, is always only for a small part of the player base of a game and will always have a small population compared to other content of a game. That is not a bad thing. It is what it is.

You're not wrong, though I would say it's kind of a bad thing in Gw2 which is pretty well known for being so inviting to casual players.I have seen people post in the past that this game shouldn't really have raids because of that and that it was a mistake to add them but honestly I kinda disagree with that.I'm glad they exist in this game, I just wish there was some way to get more of the casual playerbase playing them.

Some example of toxicity that had nothing todo with raids, fractals, dungeons, strikes:

A few days ago a commander kicked several players from his squad during the Drizzlewood open-world meta because they did not perform well enough (he said so in chat after kicking) and he hoped that they get a map disconnect so they will not be on "his map" anymore. It was a full map and we just 11111 zerged down the bosses. There was no skill required with the meta and it made not sense to kick underperformers. And it really does not matter much if your in a squad or not.

I was not one of the kicked ones, but I thought "what an idiot, why is he so toxic?".

I have seen that kind of thing happen as well but very very rarely.If I recall correctly, Im pretty sure it happened shortly after the Tequatl upgrade when people were still failing against it quite a bit, I don't remember why this player was kicked but I do remember the com calling them a useless id**t.Also I seen it with a Legendary bounty in I think PoF.. might have been in LW4 I can't recall which one exactly, but this player was kicked for apparently "dying too much" that much I do remember.

It does happen in the open world too though I've not seen it very often, my personal experience was mostly in Dungeon content back in the day and most recently strike missions.But i've seen it a bit in Fractals and Raids too over the years.

I am sure that there is some toxic behaviour in challenging instanced content (like raids, fractals, ...) and I am also sure that "perceived toxicity" is often just caused by misunderstandings and the mixing of different player types that should not be mixed. But I also think this content (raids, fractals,...) is not the core of real toxic behaviour. The core of real toxic behaviour is just, that some players (a very, very small percentage of players) behave like idiots and people remember the one idiot very well, but not the 1000 others that are nice and friendly.

I can certainly agree with that statement man, Especially that last part.That's been a big part of my arguments here, negative experiences with bad players are going to turn people off stuff, ergo the whole toxic players push others away thing.I know that exists from first hand experience and seen/heard it from others as well which only backs up my own experiences.Friends and guildmates who never played dungeons or fractals due to some bad experiences they had years ago etc.. that stuff can and does stick with some people. Especially those who just want to have fun and not deal with that kind of thing.

It isn't the only thing keeping people away from raiding that's true but I think it does play a decent role in it.I mean, for people who don't want nor care about raids.. they're not a target audience and that I would say is the majority of gw2 players.But there is an unknown amount who are curious about trying raids and those who would still like to get into them despite their bad experiences in the past.But they don't try because of the toxic element.. and that's both toxic elements from both sides of the arguments here, the "percieved toxicity" and the "toxic raiders" combined.The "percieved toxic" element the raiders complain about, scaring off the people curious about trying raids.. and the toxic raiders element that already scared off the people who did try a long time ago.Both elements kind of feed each other really, Toxic raiders created the "why are raids so toxic" people which then in turn created the "percieved toxicity" people which then lead to arguments between the groups that made both of them angry and look toxic to everyone else, who at that point are going to think man that content is toxic as hell..Of course both sides then blame the other then for scaring people away XD so it's a neverending cycle.

[zealex.9410]

@"kratan.4619" said:This entire thread demonstrates exactly why any instanced content breeds "elitist" attitudes and should just be removed. As soon as you limit the number of players allowed it is no longer an inclusive environment and leads to players deciding what is best to include and what should be excluded. "You will play what I tell you how I tell you or I will take my ball and go home.", this is exactly what some of the posters here are saying.

I dont see how this precieved problem works simply because elitists dont own access to said instances, eveyone is free to open an instance, make a group and try their luck.

[Ashantara.8731]

@yann.1946 said:So as a question: What are you're suggestions to reduce this problems.

TeamSpeak³.

[Yellow Rainbow.6142]

@zealex.9410 said:

@"kratan.4619" said:This entire thread demonstrates exactly why any instanced content breeds "elitist" attitudes and should just be removed. As soon as you limit the number of players allowed it is no longer an inclusive environment and leads to players deciding what is best to include and what should be excluded. "You will play what I tell you how I tell you or I will take my ball and go home.", this is exactly what some of the posters here are saying.

I dont see how this precieved problem works simply because elitists dont own access to said instances, eveyone is free to open an instance, make a group and try their luck.

Except same people come to your lfg and try to hijack your group and spewing hateful stuff.Sometime they even come in pack and try to dps race with their friend and not do single mechanics and not rez 1 player even if someone is down right on their feet.New players are already intimated by the fact that it is hard content and some so called exp players doing that definitely hinders one's ability to lfg again.I go through this every week.

[Laila Lightness.8742]

@Yellow Rainbow.6142 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@"kratan.4619" said:This entire thread demonstrates exactly why any instanced content breeds "elitist" attitudes and should just be removed. As soon as you limit the number of players allowed it is no longer an inclusive environment and leads to players deciding what is best to include and what should be excluded. "You will play what I tell you how I tell you or I will take my ball and go home.", this is exactly what some of the posters here are saying.

I dont see how this precieved problem works simply because elitists dont own access to said instances, eveyone is free to open an instance, make a group and try their luck.

Except same people come to your lfg and try to hijack your group and spewing hateful stuff.Sometime they even come in pack and try to dps race with their friend and not do single mechanics and not rez 1 player even if someone is down right on their feet.New players are already intimated by the fact that it is hard content and some so called exp players doing that definitely hinders one's ability to lfg again.I go through this every week.

Solution remove the need of having roles like dps or heal or support or tank. And adjust raids to work like core

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

@"Hannelore.8153" said:"Tragedies always happen when people force ideas onto each other, or their way into a relationship. The perceived toxicity roots in their prejudice and judgemental minds. No one and nothing will change unless people's mindset change."

An interesting statement, which is proceeded by an incompatible premise:

"When you join any groups of people, be courteous, humble, respectful and more importantly, compliant to the wish of that group. No one trashes a person with a positive attitude. If you're not a good fit for the group, regretfully you have to leave."

This sounds more like:

"If you don't fit in the limited notions of how you should act, and how you should play, you aren't welcome here. Even though this is an online game and we're asking for help in a public medium instead of from our private mediums such as guilds."

This is literally a catch 22 situation you've created here. Tolerance and pleasantries to mask intolerance and rejection.

It's more that, when you join a group, you should have a team player mindset and not this idea that the group you've joined should bow to your whims (Things such as an inefficient/ineffective off-meta build, lack of experience with the content, and/or unwillingness to learn) . Likewise, when putting up an LFG, the poster should be as specific as they need to be to get the people they want in their group (Build requirements, experience requirements, content being done, etc.).

If you don't want to deal with people, stop putting yourself in situations where you have to deal with people. Its that simple. Then there's no toxicity on either side, and no one has to be upset, or waste any time. But the problem is you're wanting to play content that requires other people? Just as its someone's right to find training guilds, make their own LFG, its your right to walk away and not play it at all.

The idea of the LFG is to find people, Like-minded people, to do the content with. Group requirements are a way to filter out people who wouldn't be a good fit for the group. Forcing something the group advertiser doesn't want into their group isn't going to end well and deserves a kick

Especially in what's been regarded as the most cooperative and casual MMO of all time. Just play something else?

And then someone says, "but the devs gave me the tools to kick filthy casuals from my party, so I'm right to do so". Until one day you're the one whose kicked from a legitimate run, and lose all your rewards, just because someone else wanted to be a jerk.

You see, this can always go both ways. No matter what the subject, or the argument.

Kicking someone because they don't fit what a group is after is not the equivalent of someone kicking someone else from the group so they don't get their rewards. Those are two very different things.

[Pip.2094]

Honestly, to what I've seen so far, as soon as they see people demanding the right build for the right context, they scream elitism and toxicity.The people who scare new players about toxicity in raids and fractals are, in my experience, those who run invented and totally unfitting builds that barely work for open world and claim to use in a group 'hardcore' content. Like it was seriously possible to get even just one raid boss kill with stuff like dire, pvt or rampager.You can even be the kindest and most welcoming person willing to be patient and teach, in the same moment you try to explain you need to run meta builds you'll be the evil elitist killing the game diversity.

[Fangoth.4503]

@Pip.2094 said:Honestly, to what I've seen so far, as soon as they see people demanding the right build for the right context, they scream elitism and toxicity.The people who scare new players about toxicity in raids and fractals are, in my experience, those who run invented and totally unfitting builds that barely work for open world and claim to use in a group 'hardcore' content. Like it was seriously possible to get even just one raid boss kill with stuff like dire, pvt or rampager.You can even be the kindest and most welcoming person willing to be patient and teach, in the same moment you try to explain you need to run meta builds you'll be the evil elitist killing the game diversity.

all player are toxic raider or not, nothing new about it :)those that complain abour raider being toxic are the very same people that were toxic for asking people buy elemental powder to kill tequatl or asking AP for dungeon or asking ascended gear for dungeon.

[Linken.6345]

@panzerdragon.8791 said:One user earlier did mention that the common fc lfg is playing with a completely different player base than the newbie raiders. I pug every single wing with general ease. My only sticking points might be largos SH as they require double the tanks. I lead my own raids most of time and my lfg reads as follows:

W5 fc LF exp tank, druid pusher , alac , condi dps

Guess my squad requires experience so it's toxic to newer raiders , and I specifically want a druid to deal with tds. This is the typical post of 99 percent of the lfg. Nothing really outstanding. If a newbie joins our squad we let em know that now is not the time to train and that's about it. Honestly easier bosses I don't really much about kp.

I started playing on day one in gw2 and have enjoyed dungeons , fractals , and then raiding. I only perceived toxic stuff from the forums. Raids were so hard back then , but look where we are now. The raiding community has no issues clearing content on the daily. If rewards were daily I would just spam raids all week.

I'm not sure what more newbie raiders want. All the build development for every build and class come from raiding or pvp. Even the open world builds are found on meta battle and are compromised of raid perfect builds with added functions for solo play. Hundreds and guides , videos, and guilds/ discords with training. The raiding community has done enough.

Perhaps people think requirements are toxic. That could really be it. To that I say it's too bad then. I've heard of the bear long now ranger meme , but never seen one. Does the bear ranger really fall into the target market for raids ? Can the ranger force people to deal with them ? Also no. When the bear ranger can't get a group or join groups they will now understand social market places. If you don't speak the language people won't talk to you. Same goes here. A person that wants to raid will have the equipment make the investment to train up. The lfg is mostly for experienced raiders. Pug groups do not have much comms so tried and true meta comps and strats provide easy clears.

You prob had a bear bow ranger in a sence as hand kite of deimos if you ever done it with a soulbeast just saying =P

[Ooops.8694]

Be careful with telling people this toxicity primarily exists in the forum or that those complaining are the same ones insisting on their strange open world build and unwilling to adapt. Such posts in this thread will get deleted...

[Henry.5713]

Personal perceptions about games may vary greatly just like with most things. There is almost always some truth behind any stereotype, including the one about the worst raiders. Having these people act toxic doesn't help. But we can't fix this issue only by telling raiders to act nice in raids. This general perception isn't only created by actual raiders. Many non-raiders have done their best to scare new players away while openly stating to have never even tried our raids themselves.

I have had quite a few newbies tell me how surprised they are about the easy going nature of most groups they ran into. They usually expected so much worse from what they heard. Most of this so called knowledge seems to come from quite onesided stories told second-hand. There are some true ones out there but sadly also a ton of over exaggerated nonsense. Yet some individuals seem to have made it their mission to preach them like some gospel. Not to mention those who can't seem to differentiate between group requirements or rules and actual toxicity.

On a lighter note, the "most toxic award" would certainly go to the hardcore WvW/GvG community as far as I am concerned. I mean, it is not even close lol.