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Invisibility has Gotten out of Hand


Vlad Morbius.1759

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Stealth is dumb. If they are full Zerker and can be killed while unstealthed then yeah, it wouldn't be a problem. Unfortunately we also have builds where they do enough damage to kill you (even if they kill you slowly), but also cannot be killed because of the stealth. Especially silly are the builds which spend what feels like half the time stealthed and the remaining half dodging. Even sillier are the thieves that hide in a keep effectively forever, tapping it constantly, because they can never be revealed long enough to be killed (especially given all the ports & dodges the class has). I've been trolled at something like 6v1 odds by a thief before, which shows just how stupid stealth is. Yes, they can't kill us, but we can't kill them either in spite of the huge numbers advantage.

If people want to keep stealth, fine, but make other changes such that the thief can actually die. We could for example have much greater cooldowns on stealth (this is why Mesmer aren't a problem even though they can also stealth), some mechanic such that if you stealth X times in short order each new stealth lasts shorter, etc.

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@"diomache.9246" said:Let's make a now stealth week and see how it works out.

Countless threads in the thief forums about how they ruined the game and its unplayable and unbalanced. All thieves want is to gank people from stealth, then https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow_Meld back into stealth. It was the thieves that did all the whining and complaining about detection pulse being too strong.

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@AikijinX.6258 said:The Problem is that Anet gave Stealth access to almost every class, when it was supposed to be unique to Thieves and I suppose Mesmers. Every class has some type of uniqueness to them, while ironically Thieves have had their uniqueness in Stealth stolen as well as heavily neutered, with all these abilities placing Reveal and Marked on them.

Too much stealth- People complainToo much evade- People complainToo much damage- People complainToo much mobility- People complainToo many teleports- People complainToo much blind- People complainToo many spammable skills- People complainToo much access to poison- People complainToo much condition capability- People complainAbility to Teleport allies- People Complain

People need to chill.

But I'm a warrior, where's MY stealth? lol

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@JTGuevara.9018 said:

@AikijinX.6258 said:The Problem is that Anet gave Stealth access to almost every class, when it was supposed to be unique to Thieves and I suppose Mesmers. Every class has some type of uniqueness to them, while ironically Thieves have had their uniqueness in Stealth
stolen
as well as heavily neutered, with all these abilities placing Reveal and Marked on them.

Too much stealth- People complainToo much evade- People complainToo much damage- People complainToo much mobility- People complainToo many teleports- People complainToo much blind- People complainToo many spammable skills- People complainToo much access to poison- People complainToo much condition capability- People complainAbility to Teleport allies- People Complain

People need to chill.

But I'm a warrior, where's MY stealth? lol

Just blast some Smoke Fields or reflect Rangers stealth shot, what's so hard about it man, you don't have your pocket Smoke Field?

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There isn't too much stealth, but I do agree it could be linked to stats more. One thing I think I would like instead of more reveals is a perception stat that lets you see stealthed players within a certain range if their stealth isn't as good as your perception. I've played other games with stealth that have this and most people took stealth and one-shotted people and I took the perception stat and one-shotted them. In this game you can still kind of do that if you know what thieves' and mesmers' moves are and you're fighting, but you can't just walk within 10 feet of a thief roamer in WvW and your mystical perception finds them and this makes me not feel like a real wizard.

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I do not say it's hard life to be a thief. What's most important and what I like about this game it's RPG. Ability to craft your character to match yourself and your game style. Not to mention that every crafted class/build mix can have pros/cons fighting some other class/build. I always played D/P thief/DD because I love fast pace, I love to be in centre of action. Stealth and initiative helps me to control battlefield, play on my own pace. I like attacker classes with ability to control.

Everyone is welcome to play thief/DD/DE. But today I see only few thieves in Europes (UW) enemy servers. And if I do, half of them are condi builds. Only on no downstate week there has been increase of power thieves.

To add about damage and stealth... in duels or small group fights.

Backstab for D/P thief = using almost all your initiative, walking in near proximity to your enemy who expects you. Long story short - if you get 1 8-10k backstab in 20 -30 seconds to an enemy who expects you - that's great. Usually in order to do it thief sacrifice lots of resources. CD on backstab = 1 try in 4sec invisibility window. Usually what you get is.

Blocked, invulnerable, 0, not enough distance, 5 different condition stacks, interrupted, knocked, rooted. Anyway, there are so much diversity in this game, that to blame all function accessible to almost every class sounds like bad thing.

P.S. Eles/Weavers - they are lottery for me. That's probably because of lack of knowledge about class. Anyway usually I end up dead if I meet some decent ele class/build in my way.

@Jeran.6850 said:

@"Dangus.6572" said:You haven't played one shot thief have you?I'll tell you my story. To scratch someone for like... 8-15k from backstab I'm almost full zerk. it's like 12-13k of HP, with like 0 armor. In this "red circle" AOE dmg, CC , tank condi meta it's pretty difficult to survive. stand for 1-2 seconds in these circles and you are dead. If there are 2 rangers - dead. Stealth, 2 evades, shadowstep is all I got. The cost of stealth has been increased. backstab has cd.

And yeah... thief class is predators. And yeah WvW is not walk in a park. There are many ways to play against stealth and thieves. I meet lots of good roamers out there. But you know, to be good requires some effort, dying a lot. Not everyone is ready for such things. Stealth is not a problem. May be wvw is not your type of game?

Mobility was a problem? Warr is fast now. They even added a Cat to ride... Mass reveals near claimed towers and blah blah blah. Have you tried to roam with super stealthy thief? No probably not :). To sit on your side of wvw map with deadeye might be easy task. To go out there - stealth is not most perfect thing. No one walks alone anymore. Especially in no downstate week.

Anyway I wish all good fun in WvW. Die a lot, kill a lot. Do not whack solo roamers if they just standing in a way of blob. Be polite. Salt's fun, but corpse jump or siege wall on poor invader killed by 20 persons zerg isn't.

Maybe it will will interrest you to know, that the average power staff ele that is supposed to not only survive a 50v50 engagement, but also beeing on top of arc-dps damage evaluation. It is at about 14k, no toughness, no supportive traitlines. It doesnt typically run any stability (ok...there is Lahaar...), and does run Twist of Fate as his stunbreak, leaving one utility spot for lightning flash (which doesnt stunbreak, and is only 900 range), and one spot which they are "free" to choose... personally, i still believe "unravel" is the most logical choice.Its condi removal (8) is also his heal skill, which sounds nice...till you realize its a 2 3/4 sec channeled skill, easily interruptable.

We dont have stealth. We dont have your evades (on staff). We dont have something like shortbow as a secondary weapon. We dont hit anyone for 13k by pressing a single button, aside of literaly all stars in universe aligne (or fighting a keep lord with all buffs up).Its a little bit hard to have sympathy with your "hard life", as a thief.

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@Coeruleum.9164 said:There isn't too much stealth, but I do agree it could be linked to stats more. One thing I think I would like instead of more reveals is a perception stat that lets you see stealthed players within a certain range if their stealth isn't as good as your perception. I've played other games with stealth that have this and most people took stealth and one-shotted people and I took the perception stat and one-shotted them. In this game you can still kind of do that if you know what thieves' and mesmers' moves are and you're fighting, but you can't just walk within 10 feet of a thief roamer in WvW and your mystical perception finds them and this makes me not feel like a real wizard.

Age of Conan had something like perception that was proximity and lighting based. I wouldn't mind that, as long as there's some visual disruption so I can mask direction or land a Stealth Attack quickly when I'm deliberate about it but I'm also likely to load up a ridiculous opener will few tells and build for ports since the increasing cost of stealthing would come with higher risk.

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Play as ANET intended, and sit near objectives. We gotta protect our PPT for Lord Commander Indo during these dark times while maintaining a 6 feet distance from one another of course (or 2 meters in civilized societies).

D:

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Preventing stealth stomps in WvW should be the first thing ,its an offensive action and shouldn`t permit a player to remain stealthed esp that bovine scat teleport stealth stomp.Prevent players stealthing if taking damage , cut durations, limit the times you can stealth within a 15 second time frame , prevent revealed players stripping that reveal

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@Balkarrie Legacy.9175 said:Preventing stealth stomps in WvW should be the first thing ,its an offensive action and shouldn`t permit a player to remain stealthed esp that bovine scat teleport stealth stomp.Prevent players stealthing if taking damage , cut durations, limit the times you can stealth within a 15 second time frame , prevent revealed players stripping that reveal

How many handicaps do you need, can't stealth while taking damage, you have to feel some shame for saying something like that. Why limit how often a thief can stealth when something like Backstab already has a CD? Sure, prevent thieves from stripping reveal, but also limit the amount of reveals on a map. Ya, stealth stomp is dumb, why not tackle that instead demanding a profession be stripped down to a free kill for you? Need anything else handed to you while we're at it?

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See a someone who stealths alot coming to u, dude can you wait..i need to quickly buy some target painter.If that fails.....dude there is a sentry up, can you follow me there and fight.Well if that fails also....then, dude can you wait abit, i just took this tower and need to upgrade it and put watchtower tactic. can you come fight me after that?

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@Jeydra.4386 said:Stealth is dumb. If they are full Zerker and can be killed while unstealthed then yeah, it wouldn't be a problem. Unfortunately we also have builds where they do enough damage to kill you (even if they kill you slowly), but also cannot be killed because of the stealth. Especially silly are the builds which spend what feels like half the time stealthed and the remaining half dodging. Even sillier are the thieves that hide in a keep effectively forever, tapping it constantly, because they can never be revealed long enough to be killed (especially given all the ports & dodges the class has). I've been trolled at something like 6v1 odds by a thief before, which shows just how stupid stealth is. Yes, they can't kill us, but we can't kill them either in spite of the huge numbers advantage.

If people want to keep stealth, fine, but make other changes such that the thief can actually die. We could for example have much greater cooldowns on stealth (this is why Mesmer aren't a problem even though they can also stealth), some mechanic such that if you stealth X times in short order each new stealth lasts shorter, etc.

Or, do like every other RPG ever and separate STATS from your gear and have it by class. Then you can't build for tanky theives.

Cause that's totally this game.

(Though honestly, I would rather not have stats from gear. I hate that. Totally divorces it from the RPG elements, but the fact is this game engine would require a TOTAL rework to do that)

@kash.9213 said:

@"Balkarrie Legacy.9175" said:Preventing stealth stomps in WvW should be the first thing ,its an offensive action and shouldn`t permit a player to remain stealthed esp that bovine scat teleport stealth stomp.Prevent players stealthing if taking damage , cut durations, limit the times you can stealth within a 15 second time frame , prevent revealed players stripping that reveal

How many handicaps do you need, can't stealth while taking damage, you have to feel some shame for saying something like that. Why limit how often a thief can stealth when something like Backstab already has a CD? Sure, prevent thieves from stripping reveal, but also limit the amount of reveals on a map. Ya, stealth stomp is dumb, why not tackle that instead demanding a profession be stripped down to a free kill for you? Need anything else handed to you while we're at it?

Dude, I'm pretty sure these folks all play Warrior or Guardian or Necro and the like, and simply want the game to be more and more like Fortnite which is basically cartoonish Call of Duty, which means, "I saw you first I win! Ha!"

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@Hadi.6025 said:This is a learn to play issue lol

Brilliant argument to the facts laid out, good stuff lol! All the excuses in the world doesn't change the fact this is broken and needs to be changed, stealth stomps, perma invisibility, poke poke stealth burst away, 1500 range and stealth, trap/burst stealth / repeat and if you're in danger stealth and run away.

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Invisibility has gotten out of hand, as the thread suggested. The only classes that even warrant stealth are Thief and Mesmer. Maybe engineer to a lesser degree like 1-2 second stealth max. But the amount of classes that have an ability to access and utilize stealth is beyond me. Change Guardian "Traps" to Guardian Symbols or something, and Rangers traps to something else, so they aren't eligible for trapper runes that grant stealth. It's absurd that these classes could ever gain access to stealth.

That being said, none of them are even a threat to me, i'll smack them. But having these classes Steal our unique class design was a bad move.

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See a someone who stealths alot coming to u, dude can you wait..i need to quickly buy some target painter.If that fails.....dude there is a sentry up, can you follow me there and fight.Well if that fails also....then, dude can you wait abit, i just took this tower and need to upgrade it and put watchtower tactic. can you come fight me after that?

You mean I expect you to use things in the game? For the purpose they were intended? Why yes, yes I do.

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@BeepBoopBop.5403 said:You mean I expect you to use things in the game? For the purpose they were intended? Why yes, yes I do.

Those things are situational at best and clearly make very little difference for 95% of the stealth abuse discussed here so although they are valid they don't pertain to the crux of the problem. This needs to be addressed, period.

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@Vlad Morbius.1759 said:

@BeepBoopBop.5403 said:You mean I expect you to use things in the game? For the purpose they were intended? Why yes, yes I do.

Those things are situational at best and clearly make very little difference for 95% of the stealth abuse discussed here so although they are valid they don't pertain to the crux of the problem. This needs to be addressed, period.

No it doesn't need to be addressed, because it has been fine for 8 years and is more nerfed than ever because of the things I have linked. LEARN TO PLAY. 6 classes have access to reveal. LEARN. TO. PLAY.

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I don’t mind stealth, as long it’s not spammable.Like SA traitline from thieves needs to be reworked, it’s too fucking broken.You do some dmg vs SA thief, if hes deadeye he just dodges and goes stealth, removes condi’s and heals himself. Thief just waits in stealth till he is full again, and the cycle repeats.This is totally not a fun gameplay.Make stealth only last 2 or 3 seconds max imo, unless it’s a skill on cd like shadow’s refuge.

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@noot.8641 said:I don’t mind stealth, as long it’s not spammable.Like SA traitline from thieves needs to be reworked, it’s too kitten broken.You do some dmg vs SA thief, if hes deadeye he just dodges and goes stealth, removes condi’s and heals himself. Thief just waits in stealth till he is full again, and the cycle repeats.This is totally not a fun gameplay.Make stealth only last 2 or 3 seconds max imo, unless it’s a skill on cd like shadow’s refuge.

I've suggested around 4 or so seconds stealth window to use Stealth Attacks, I don't think it's needed at this point though, while still allowing longer duration stealth for map travel and scouting. People in this forum would rather have no stealth and gamble with some unknown gimmick mechanic that would have to make up for it with possibly no tells like stealth has and likely something without the stipulation of having to come out of that state to do anything meaningful.

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@"AikijinX.6258" said:Invisibility has gotten out of hand, as the thread suggested. The only classes that even warrant stealth are Thief and Mesmer. Maybe engineer to a lesser degree like 1-2 second stealth max. But the amount of classes that have an ability to access and utilize stealth is beyond me. Change Guardian "Traps" to Guardian Symbols or something, and Rangers traps to something else, so they aren't eligible for trapper runes that grant stealth. It's absurd that these classes could ever gain access to stealth.

That being said, none of them are even a threat to me, i'll smack them. But having these classes Steal our unique class design was a bad move.

If the stealth from trapper runes is problematic then it would be easier to just change what trapper runes do, considering thief can't even use them anymore due to traps being reworked into preparations. No disagreement with the rest of what you said tho.

@kash.9213 said:

@noot.8641 said:I don’t mind stealth, as long it’s not spammable.Like SA traitline from thieves needs to be reworked, it’s too kitten broken.You do some dmg vs SA thief, if hes deadeye he just dodges and goes stealth, removes condi’s and heals himself. Thief just waits in stealth till he is full again, and the cycle repeats.This is totally not a fun gameplay.
Make stealth only last 2 or 3
seconds max imo, unless it’s a skill on cd like shadow’s refuge.

I've suggested around 4 or so seconds stealth window to use Stealth Attacks, I don't think it's needed at this point though, while still allowing longer duration stealth for map travel and scouting.
People in this forum would rather have no stealth and gamble with some unknown gimmick mechanic that would have to make up for it with possibly no tells like stealth has and likely something without the stipulation of having to come out of that state to do anything meaningful.

Exactly. Removing stealth outright is like opening pandora's box, you'll have to give the thief something else to compensate. If you ever thought consume plasma was OP in a thief/mesmer duel, imagine what happens when that thief has constant access to stability and protection alongside blocks etc regardless of matchup.

See a someone who stealths alot coming to u, dude can you wait..i need to quickly buy some target painter.If that fails.....dude there is a sentry up, can you follow me there and fight.Well if that fails also....then, dude can you wait abit, i just took this tower and need to upgrade it and put watchtower tactic. can you come fight me after that?

All of these things do work against stealth thieves. If you insist on not using any of the stuff that exists in game to your advantage, it's like saying condi is OP because you don't bother running any cleanses. If that would be a L2P issue, I'm not sure how this isn't.

@Balkarrie Legacy.9175 said:Preventing stealth stomps in WvW should be the first thing ,its an offensive action and shouldn`t permit a player to remain stealthed esp that bovine scat teleport stealth stomp.Prevent players stealthing if taking damage , cut durations, limit the times you can stealth within a 15 second time frame , prevent revealed players stripping that reveal

So what about stomping using mist form/elixir S/stability/function gyro/stances etc? Those are ok because you can see the enemy stomping but (in most cases) do nothing about it, but stealth stomp isn't ok even though one AoE CC on the downed will stop it? Really?

@Balkarrie Legacy.9175 said:

@Hadi.6025 said:This is a
learn to play
issue lol

Yeah, it's learn to play issue for all those thiefs that can't play without perma stealtth

Bro just get their health to 0 duh.

Lets see you play without your bovine scat never ending stealths and evades you have keyed into a sngle macro

Why would I bind multiple evades or stealths into a single macro? Evades don't stack so a macro would be pointless, stealth doesn't need a macro (in fact, very little in this game does) and even if it did, binding it to a macro means I'd blow everything at once and would have nothing left when it expires, meaning a quick death. This comment alone implies you have never actually played thief.

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