Best Burst DPS - August 2020

NotFound.7813 · August 15, 2020

@Dantheman.3589 said:
@wevh.2903 said:
@Dantheman.3589 said:
@wevh.2903 said:
@Dantheman.3589 said:
@wevh.2903 said:
@Dantheman.3589 said:
@wevh.2903 said:
@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
@wevh.2903 said:
@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Concerning actual practicality in a match, here are the actual burst builds that work:
P/D Core Thief - This has the best burst right now. It is also a very frequent low CD death burst. The build also has great stealth & disengage.
Power Herald - Still one of the best single target burst in team fights when done correctly. It also has strong consistent DPS, not just burst.
Power Soulbeast - This launches comparable damage to P/D Thief but it's on triple the CD, has way less stealth and way less mobility.
Power Mesmer/Chrono/Mirage - It's kind of meh right now, but it can still function if played by a veteran.
Anything else not on this list is not on the list because it isn't actually a burst class/build. A lot of people would tell you Guardian or Holo or Reaper or even some Ele builds have "burst" right now but that isn't really true. Some builds are just generally overpowered and are dealing too much consistent damage with literally everything they do in this current meta. Guardian is spitting out this barrage of random kitten AoE power and condi all over the place. Holo is slapping around tons of damage with literally everything it does, now with mid range death barrage from grenades. Reaper with a Lich elite is just over-tuned right now to the point that you can actually hit buttons immediately off of CD to stay aggressive for maximum consistent DPS values, and there is little to no penalty for doing so while not thinking.
So yeah anyway, my response is directed towards the actual burst class/builds in a traditional sense. If you want a list of what's dealing a lot of damage considering the level of sustain it has, you'd be looking at something more like this:
P/D Core Thief
Power Reaper
Grenade Holosaiyan
Core Guard "Lots of variations work"
Weaver "Lots of good variations here"

Pd core thief dies easily when focused

No, it doesn't. It has multiple teleports, stealths, wears carrion, and spams weakness on all the power damage. For the level of ranged damage it deals and how frequent it is, the sustain & disengage is outrageous. In example, consider how a Core Warrior who has to melee is far easier to focus and actually kill than a P/D Thief and has roughly half the damage output during a burst. P/D Thief is currently extremely loaded, including its sustain. The weakness should be removed from the build entirely aside from blasting shortbow 2 on shortbow 4, which is actually a considerable amount of init to invest for procing an AoE weakness.

Again , warrior and thief role are COMPLETELY diffeeent , dunno if u know the differente of a dueler and a roamer but u cant compare them thats ridiculous . Core dp has literally one teleport with 50s using daggger 2 when focused by two or more persons is not viable u will prob get a cc chain and die . There is only one stelath with big cd too , dagger 5 is like dagger 2 not viable wheb focused , the health is easily rupteable with 1s cast time. The condi burst is nice ? Ofc but like every top player says (sindrener , boyce..) c thief dies easily when focused not likely dsredevil wich is nearly inmortal . Literally when boyce plays ranger he farms c thief when they has shadow step and he says it on stream , no shadow step =kill

1 person playing a ranked counter doesn’t equal every top teir player. U even have the amount of stealth’s way off, plus if u want to play ranger in top teir it’s gonna sw/wth bunker which won’t kill them but can sustain them nicely.

Is not one person playing a ranked counter , thats a exemplarization , every good player will say the same cthief dies easily under pressure . Plat3 should kill ez a cthief on a focus tbh

U can pretty much play roamer sick em soulbeast at top tiers without problem also both mender and valk ranger can 1v1 (wich wont happen at top tier ) a cthief , tank mender soulbeast makes cthief +1 a hard play cuz it tanks condi burst dmg easy but when it comes to very very good players u wont decap them with lg4 what makes the build almost useless

I’m plat3+ na and Eu and haven’t seen this much nor hear it much. Longbow sicem is mostly ranked but is not really played in top teir and valk is falling out of meta atm and the tank soulbeast has been more absent than sic em. The only thing worth playing rn in ats is sw/warhorn bunker core ranger tbh while the bursty ones are fairly meme but can be nice at times

Im talking about playing sick soulbeast at ranked , it is viable but there is no one playing it apart from boyce .

Im pretty much a play3/leg1 player at eu . There is a big differente between what is played at eu/na , for example Mender soulbeast was pretty much a na thing back then . All ranger builds r fairly covered by holos and scrappers tbh . Idk if ur refering to mender core with greatsword and sword with marks but i dont find warhorn better than dagger (if ur refering to that build)

Anyway theres is a way big differente between ats and ranked , i find valk ranger pretty good at ranked but not on ats .

I see some more sic em ranger in high teir other than Boyce. The menders soulbeast wasn’t really played at all on NA except for 1 team USA in-house where they thought it was meta and hence brought it to the mota without thinking that it would suck against any comps besides mostly their own.

I know the build your talking about with marks, but it lacks all the trait synergy to make it viable. It only holds node because of healing trap with combo effects and also makes use of regen spam. Marks is workable but the only way to survive in ats is the combo effects and regen, where all the trait synergy is there with warhorn and nature magic. Plus you aren’t really gonna get many more kills with marks damage and you will be way more sensitive to plusses. So there doesn’t seem like much reason to play that variation over what I’m talking about

Core ranger has lot of variants but at the end r all the same , i mean u need to play both survival and bestmasrety , then u can pick marks or narute (even skirmishing) , marks has big synergy with valk and axe but at the end u can pretty much play it with mender sword taking with both intelligent sigils (nature will be way tanky but at least with markd the build will deal bit more dmg so it will be more enjoyable) , u only can take value on healing trap with mender / sword tbh .

Mender nature magic is bad at ranked while being good at ats cuz u wont kill nothing that is bit tanky and i dont rly enjoy it , at least valk ranger can kill stuff .

I mean i know there is s trait at narute magic wich gives 200 heal when u gain regeneration while using wh 5 on healing trap (dunno if ur talking about synergy with that trait) also u will get big value with axe off hand cuz u will get 200 per regen tick without cd when using axe 5 on the healing trap .

Anyway i still dont like warhorn over dagger , i think dodge has way more value at least for me . Maybe dropping gs to run sw/wh axe/dagger but gs block is way to overpowered to drop it

Yeah I’m talking about the 200 healing on regen, but this is any source of w/o cd on at least 5 sources of regen, some with fairly low cds. Plus blast finisher gives extra condition clear you will lack. A big problem with what your talking about is for one that you are taking this stuff to counter classes(scrapper mostly) which are huge in projectile denial and stick in your face with area denial, hence why healing trap is good. The variants you are talking about won’t be able to do much when they use projectile denial and to my knowledge is just slighly not tanky enough to survive the 1v1 and maybe a plus 1 where actually the warhorn can also be used for stealth with smokescreen, which I’ve seen be incredibly useful especially since your going all out at trying to sustain on node versus a build that usually counters ranger on node without this stuff.

Ye thats why i said both holos (the old demoisher build) and scrapper makes ranger feel meh . I dont like ranger being forced to a bunker mender core build thb , ye warhorn has big synergy with both smokescale and healing trap alongside with sword while regen trait have synergy with both narute traits andhealing trap regen ticks , but at the end i think i still prefer dagger and evasive purity but both r good picks , maybe warhorn relies in sword for having access to dodges while with dagger u can pick axe (but ye projectiles /scrapper) . Also dont forget that u can combo stealth with marks trait on pet swapp to xd .

What i said about axe 5 is that u will get like lot of regenf ticks using it on healing trap while doing big dmg if u get a jaracanda immob or a entangle with a full 5skill cast (nearly 7k usually) but is not rly that viable. I tryed it using sword/axe axe/dagger but gs block is way better useful

NotFound.7813 · August 15, 2020

@wevh.2903 said:
@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
@wevh.2903 said:
@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
@wevh.2903 said:
@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
@wevh.2903 said:
@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Concerning actual practicality in a match, here are the actual burst builds that work:
P/D Core Thief - This has the best burst right now. It is also a very frequent low CD death burst. The build also has great stealth & disengage.
Power Herald - Still one of the best single target burst in team fights when done correctly. It also has strong consistent DPS, not just burst.
Power Soulbeast - This launches comparable damage to P/D Thief but it's on triple the CD, has way less stealth and way less mobility.
Power Mesmer/Chrono/Mirage - It's kind of meh right now, but it can still function if played by a veteran.
Anything else not on this list is not on the list because it isn't actually a burst class/build. A lot of people would tell you Guardian or Holo or Reaper or even some Ele builds have "burst" right now but that isn't really true. Some builds are just generally overpowered and are dealing too much consistent damage with literally everything they do in this current meta. Guardian is spitting out this barrage of random kitten AoE power and condi all over the place. Holo is slapping around tons of damage with literally everything it does, now with mid range death barrage from grenades. Reaper with a Lich elite is just over-tuned right now to the point that you can actually hit buttons immediately off of CD to stay aggressive for maximum consistent DPS values, and there is little to no penalty for doing so while not thinking.
So yeah anyway, my response is directed towards the actual burst class/builds in a traditional sense. If you want a list of what's dealing a lot of damage considering the level of sustain it has, you'd be looking at something more like this:
P/D Core Thief
Power Reaper
Grenade Holosaiyan
Core Guard "Lots of variations work"
Weaver "Lots of good variations here"

Pd core thief dies easily when focused

No, it doesn't. It has multiple teleports, stealths, wears carrion, and spams weakness on all the power damage. For the level of ranged damage it deals and how frequent it is, the sustain & disengage is outrageous. In example, consider how a Core Warrior who has to melee is far easier to focus and actually kill than a P/D Thief and has roughly half the damage output during a burst. P/D Thief is currently extremely loaded, including its sustain. The weakness should be removed from the build entirely aside from blasting shortbow 2 on shortbow 4, which is actually a considerable amount of init to invest for procing an AoE weakness.

Again , warrior and thief role are COMPLETELY diffeeent , dunno if u know the differente of a dueler and a roamer but u cant compare them thats ridiculous . Core dp has literally one teleport with 50s using daggger 2 when focused by two or more persons is not viable u will prob get a cc chain and die . There is only one stelath with big cd too , dagger 5 is like dagger 2 not viable wheb focused , the health is easily rupteable with 1s cast time. The condi burst is nice ? Ofc but like every top player says (sindrener , boyce..) c thief dies easily when focused not likely dsredevil wich is nearly inmortal . Literally when boyce plays ranger he farms c thief when they has shadow step and he says it on stream , no shadow step =kill

Not sure who you're trying to convince, but I'm one of the wrong guys to argue with here:

I run 3 or 4 ATs a day and 90% of the time make it to the final round, sometimes win. P/D Thief is better at running than D/P Thief. P/D Thief uses the very same Shadow Step teleport and Shortbow as the D/P Thief. The P/D Thief also often brings a 2nd stun break
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blinding_Powder
which is also another instant on-demand stealth that does not require monkeying around with black powder shot blasting and init burning, which = more shortbow 5. The P/D Thief actually has more resource for shortbow 5 porting because it has several methods to stealth without burning initiative = more ability to disengage very quickly. P/D Thief is currently by far the fastest class in the game mobility wise and equal to a D/P Thief in ability to stay permanently stealthed if it really wants, and it can do this without burning initiative whatsoever. P/D is harder to kill that D/P Thief if it is disengaging.
What you heard Sindrender reference, was probably him mentioning how it plays when it is trying to STAY in combat. Of course a P/D isn't going to be as evasive while STAYING in the fight, as a S/D or a Staff Daredevil. This goes into what you said yourself about the difference between a Team Fighter and a DPS Roamer. I couldn't agree more, as a person who plays a glass cannon Soulbeast. I'm great in 1v1s, plenty of evasion for 1v1s. I'm great for getting in dropping a lot of damage and leaving quickly, plenty of cooldowns for that. But if I try to stay in a fight say a 3v3, I can die instantly if caught wrong, even if things like FBs and Tempests are supporting me. The P/D Thief is the same. It is a burst class/build. It needs to get in on a good approach, back off and approach again. It cant' stay in combat while dealing steady DPS while maintaining a generally defensive repose in the same way that an S/D could. But while actively disengaging, the P/D is faster than all the other Thief variants while preserving more init.
If a player has great map awareness and also has good team communication via a voice chat, the P/D Thief is much harder to catch and kill than any other Thief variant. It also wears Carrion and spams high weakness uptime. Come on my dude.
You bring up Boyce's footage. Of course Boyce farms P/D Thieves. He runs a build that is almost identical to the build that I have been running for a little over 2 years now. Soulbeast archetypes like this are the one build that can actually bully and secure kills on a P/D Thief. I do the very same thing in NA all day long in ATs. Currently the only Thief that I can't handle in NA, is oEnvy. A lot of it has to do with how his team comps are arranged vs. my own, but also because the guy is sporadic and always in a weird spot, hard to read. But I farm the rest of them, P/D S/D D/P doesn't matter, to the point that they actively avoid my Soulbeast unless they're 2v1 +ing, and even then I'll instantly down them most of the time before that 2v1 is finished. The reason why Soulbeast can counter Thief so hard is obviously for two reasons: 1) Sic Em reveal, and 2) Smoke Assault. Smoke Assault once it is active, will follow a Thief anywhere that he is able to teleport. So if I open up a burst on a P/D Thief beginning with Rapid Fire and One Wolf Pack, I just follow with Smoke Assault after that and no matter where the Thief goes, I'll still be on top of his head when we land.
And it's funny to bring this up because you acted as if P/D Thief had bad disengage. However in the past day or two, there was one point where I was chasing oEnvy in Legacy. We were at mid and I went to finish a burst on him, guy teleports up a ledge from mid, teleports half way to far with Shadow Step, teleports to the far node directly, and I stay on top of him the entire time due to Smoke Assault. This distance of travel happens in the very short time that it takes me to finish a single Smoke Assault. Roughly 1 and a half seconds. If I wasn't a Soulbeast with Sic Em reveal and Smoke Assault, it would be impossible to chase/catch that. Seriously, no other build could reveal him for so long while sticking to him during those long distance teleports. Even Herald Unrelenting Assault is limited compared to Smoke Assault. Soulbeast is the only build in the game that can kitten on a P/D like that.

Anyway, P/D Thief is loaded dude. It's too powerful in terms of skill entry and skill ceiling alike. I'm a bad Thief player, and even I can get on that build and immediately be dangerous as hell on it.

If u pretty much know the differenre between a dueler and a roamer whyU compared them at first instance (warr and thief) If we r not talking about staying on a fight as a thief what we r talking about? I mean what kind of situatiom r u talking about ?disengaging? Ofc a thief will disengage a 3v2 and u wont chatch it , why would u chase a thief in that situation? XdThief will disengage every situation but as long as it gets into the fight will thats what im talking aboutBy easily killed when focused ofc im refering when thief has to stay obliged on a teamfight or on a 2v2 against other thief , in what other situation would be ? +1 someone and leave cuz u couldnt 2v1 and the situatiom went 2v2?

Im not saying cthief is bad , nothing nearly ,cthief has a big good burst when it comes to +1 or trying to kill someone on a teamfight but if it fails u do prrtty much nothing . Im saying that if cthief is obliged to obviolsy stay on a fight it is easily punished by focusing , dunno if u saying that cthief has a big stealth access , it has two reliable sources of stealth :heath (1s cast time ) and shadow refuge/blinding powder both with big cd ,picking venom means dropping a big sustain utility .

If u say pd is better than dp but i think mota already gave us an answer ;)

Also soulbeast sick em was a example of how cthief cant survive while pd daredevil could on the same situation , to not count being rooted or chilled etc .

Dude things have evolved greatly since the mota. P/D Thief is just better than D/P right now.

These 2 month patchings that constantly reshake the meta do not provide long enough durations of time for any "real meta" to ever actually form. Every time by the end of 2 months, when things are sort of finally settling, then it all changes again. What I'm trying to say is that right now, nearing the end of our current 2 month patching, P/D is being discovered as the best DPS + Roam for several reasons. In the past couple of weeks in NA, I haven't seen a single Thief run anything other than P/D. And that includes legend tier Best Of The Best and Gods Of PvP.

What happens EVERY 2 month patch now, is the same thing:

People find new builds that counter the previous meta and then everyone starts running those builds because they think they are OP. The appearance of Scourge in this previous 2 month patch is a good example of this, as well as the appearance of Flashbang Grenade Holos.
Then people are forced to situate builds that can counter or at least deal with the new strong specs that are appearing, and this is what really drives the formation and settlement of a meta. It also can remove some of those first specs from play that were discovered first. Because a spec is only as good as what it is playing against. Again, a good example of this is how Scourge quickly disappeared again, and then Reaper showed up. Or how the disappearance of certain things and alteration of small traits allowed Weavers to run Water, which now we have really really powerful Weaver play showing up again. When these kind of "sleeper builds" are activated because of the appearance of something that it is good at countering, or the disappearance of something that used to counter it hard, the entire intra-class dynamic within the meta shifts completely. Something like D/P that was doing great, can be functionally pushed out by default, when people realize that what is currently strong and in play are things that are slow and melee range, and that by playing P/D they don't ever actually have to get close to those specs while +ing. <- And that is why P/D is better right now. It doesn't have to go get close to things are currently OP like Reapers or Holos or Weavers or Heralds, ect ect.

The only things P/D Thief has to worry about it that can reliably actually kill it are:

Sic Em DPS Soulbeasts
Other Thieves

Dying to anything else is a misplay in positioning, skill use, and map awareness. The only time I'd say that isn't true, is if your team is being snowballed so hard that you've got 3 guys chasing you on various classes any time you leave the gate. But other than that, you should be able to run circles around the map and disengage any opponents outside of Soulbeasts & other Thieves, while staying permanently stealthed even.

Well thats true , things has changed , the most important is the perma resistance rev nerf but cthief got nerfed to (not to the ground ) At the end thats a player choice to pick cthief or daredevil both has lot of differences while matching the same role

Im not agreeing with that , i thing both necro or power rev/maybe holo can punish cthief if it tryes to stay on a fight , but at the end cthief is almost all about the first burst , everyone runs resistance or revenant runes and thats mostly why i think daredevil is way better . The rupting potential of daredevil has ,at lest for me , way more utility .

Also i dont think core has more mivility , dash is overpowered movility alone and u can use it 4 times in a row (with signet)

At the end is all a players choice tbh , both builds have their own value

Point that nades holo has been there since feb patch but was only noticed by zan , holo role back them was purely sidenoder and zans made holo work as a dueler/roamer with nades , like a weird version of power rev

Trevor Boyer.6524 · August 15, 2020

@wevh.2903 said:
@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
@wevh.2903 said:
@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
@wevh.2903 said:
@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
@wevh.2903 said:
@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Concerning actual practicality in a match, here are the actual burst builds that work:
P/D Core Thief - This has the best burst right now. It is also a very frequent low CD death burst. The build also has great stealth & disengage.
Power Herald - Still one of the best single target burst in team fights when done correctly. It also has strong consistent DPS, not just burst.
Power Soulbeast - This launches comparable damage to P/D Thief but it's on triple the CD, has way less stealth and way less mobility.
Power Mesmer/Chrono/Mirage - It's kind of meh right now, but it can still function if played by a veteran.
Anything else not on this list is not on the list because it isn't actually a burst class/build. A lot of people would tell you Guardian or Holo or Reaper or even some Ele builds have "burst" right now but that isn't really true. Some builds are just generally overpowered and are dealing too much consistent damage with literally everything they do in this current meta. Guardian is spitting out this barrage of random kitten AoE power and condi all over the place. Holo is slapping around tons of damage with literally everything it does, now with mid range death barrage from grenades. Reaper with a Lich elite is just over-tuned right now to the point that you can actually hit buttons immediately off of CD to stay aggressive for maximum consistent DPS values, and there is little to no penalty for doing so while not thinking.
So yeah anyway, my response is directed towards the actual burst class/builds in a traditional sense. If you want a list of what's dealing a lot of damage considering the level of sustain it has, you'd be looking at something more like this:
P/D Core Thief
Power Reaper
Grenade Holosaiyan
Core Guard "Lots of variations work"
Weaver "Lots of good variations here"

Pd core thief dies easily when focused

No, it doesn't. It has multiple teleports, stealths, wears carrion, and spams weakness on all the power damage. For the level of ranged damage it deals and how frequent it is, the sustain & disengage is outrageous. In example, consider how a Core Warrior who has to melee is far easier to focus and actually kill than a P/D Thief and has roughly half the damage output during a burst. P/D Thief is currently extremely loaded, including its sustain. The weakness should be removed from the build entirely aside from blasting shortbow 2 on shortbow 4, which is actually a considerable amount of init to invest for procing an AoE weakness.

Again , warrior and thief role are COMPLETELY diffeeent , dunno if u know the differente of a dueler and a roamer but u cant compare them thats ridiculous . Core dp has literally one teleport with 50s using daggger 2 when focused by two or more persons is not viable u will prob get a cc chain and die . There is only one stelath with big cd too , dagger 5 is like dagger 2 not viable wheb focused , the health is easily rupteable with 1s cast time. The condi burst is nice ? Ofc but like every top player says (sindrener , boyce..) c thief dies easily when focused not likely dsredevil wich is nearly inmortal . Literally when boyce plays ranger he farms c thief when they has shadow step and he says it on stream , no shadow step =kill

Not sure who you're trying to convince, but I'm one of the wrong guys to argue with here:

I run 3 or 4 ATs a day and 90% of the time make it to the final round, sometimes win. P/D Thief is better at running than D/P Thief. P/D Thief uses the very same Shadow Step teleport and Shortbow as the D/P Thief. The P/D Thief also often brings a 2nd stun break
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blinding_Powder
which is also another instant on-demand stealth that does not require monkeying around with black powder shot blasting and init burning, which = more shortbow 5. The P/D Thief actually has more resource for shortbow 5 porting because it has several methods to stealth without burning initiative = more ability to disengage very quickly. P/D Thief is currently by far the fastest class in the game mobility wise and equal to a D/P Thief in ability to stay permanently stealthed if it really wants, and it can do this without burning initiative whatsoever. P/D is harder to kill that D/P Thief if it is disengaging.
What you heard Sindrender reference, was probably him mentioning how it plays when it is trying to STAY in combat. Of course a P/D isn't going to be as evasive while STAYING in the fight, as a S/D or a Staff Daredevil. This goes into what you said yourself about the difference between a Team Fighter and a DPS Roamer. I couldn't agree more, as a person who plays a glass cannon Soulbeast. I'm great in 1v1s, plenty of evasion for 1v1s. I'm great for getting in dropping a lot of damage and leaving quickly, plenty of cooldowns for that. But if I try to stay in a fight say a 3v3, I can die instantly if caught wrong, even if things like FBs and Tempests are supporting me. The P/D Thief is the same. It is a burst class/build. It needs to get in on a good approach, back off and approach again. It cant' stay in combat while dealing steady DPS while maintaining a generally defensive repose in the same way that an S/D could. But while actively disengaging, the P/D is faster than all the other Thief variants while preserving more init.
If a player has great map awareness and also has good team communication via a voice chat, the P/D Thief is much harder to catch and kill than any other Thief variant. It also wears Carrion and spams high weakness uptime. Come on my dude.
You bring up Boyce's footage. Of course Boyce farms P/D Thieves. He runs a build that is almost identical to the build that I have been running for a little over 2 years now. Soulbeast archetypes like this are the one build that can actually bully and secure kills on a P/D Thief. I do the very same thing in NA all day long in ATs. Currently the only Thief that I can't handle in NA, is oEnvy. A lot of it has to do with how his team comps are arranged vs. my own, but also because the guy is sporadic and always in a weird spot, hard to read. But I farm the rest of them, P/D S/D D/P doesn't matter, to the point that they actively avoid my Soulbeast unless they're 2v1 +ing, and even then I'll instantly down them most of the time before that 2v1 is finished. The reason why Soulbeast can counter Thief so hard is obviously for two reasons: 1) Sic Em reveal, and 2) Smoke Assault. Smoke Assault once it is active, will follow a Thief anywhere that he is able to teleport. So if I open up a burst on a P/D Thief beginning with Rapid Fire and One Wolf Pack, I just follow with Smoke Assault after that and no matter where the Thief goes, I'll still be on top of his head when we land.
And it's funny to bring this up because you acted as if P/D Thief had bad disengage. However in the past day or two, there was one point where I was chasing oEnvy in Legacy. We were at mid and I went to finish a burst on him, guy teleports up a ledge from mid, teleports half way to far with Shadow Step, teleports to the far node directly, and I stay on top of him the entire time due to Smoke Assault. This distance of travel happens in the very short time that it takes me to finish a single Smoke Assault. Roughly 1 and a half seconds. If I wasn't a Soulbeast with Sic Em reveal and Smoke Assault, it would be impossible to chase/catch that. Seriously, no other build could reveal him for so long while sticking to him during those long distance teleports. Even Herald Unrelenting Assault is limited compared to Smoke Assault. Soulbeast is the only build in the game that can kitten on a P/D like that.

Anyway, P/D Thief is loaded dude. It's too powerful in terms of skill entry and skill ceiling alike. I'm a bad Thief player, and even I can get on that build and immediately be dangerous as hell on it.

If u pretty much know the differenre between a dueler and a roamer whyU compared them at first instance (warr and thief) If we r not talking about staying on a fight as a thief what we r talking about? I mean what kind of situatiom r u talking about ?disengaging? Ofc a thief will disengage a 3v2 and u wont chatch it , why would u chase a thief in that situation? XdThief will disengage every situation but as long as it gets into the fight will thats what im talking aboutBy easily killed when focused ofc im refering when thief has to stay obliged on a teamfight or on a 2v2 against other thief , in what other situation would be ? +1 someone and leave cuz u couldnt 2v1 and the situatiom went 2v2?

Im not saying cthief is bad , nothing nearly ,cthief has a big good burst when it comes to +1 or trying to kill someone on a teamfight but if it fails u do prrtty much nothing . Im saying that if cthief is obliged to obviolsy stay on a fight it is easily punished by focusing , dunno if u saying that cthief has a big stealth access , it has two reliable sources of stealth :heath (1s cast time ) and shadow refuge/blinding powder both with big cd ,picking venom means dropping a big sustain utility .

If u say pd is better than dp but i think mota already gave us an answer ;)

Also soulbeast sick em was a example of how cthief cant survive while pd daredevil could on the same situation , to not count being rooted or chilled etc .

Dude things have evolved greatly since the mota. P/D Thief is just better than D/P right now.

These 2 month patchings that constantly reshake the meta do not provide long enough durations of time for any "real meta" to ever actually form. Every time by the end of 2 months, when things are sort of finally settling, then it all changes again. What I'm trying to say is that right now, nearing the end of our current 2 month patching, P/D is being discovered as the best DPS + Roam for several reasons. In the past couple of weeks in NA, I haven't seen a single Thief run anything other than P/D. And that includes legend tier Best Of The Best and Gods Of PvP.

What happens EVERY 2 month patch now, is the same thing:

People find new builds that counter the previous meta and then everyone starts running those builds because they think they are OP. The appearance of Scourge in this previous 2 month patch is a good example of this, as well as the appearance of Flashbang Grenade Holos.
Then people are forced to situate builds that can counter or at least deal with the new strong specs that are appearing, and this is what really drives the formation and settlement of a meta. It also can remove some of those first specs from play that were discovered first. Because a spec is only as good as what it is playing against. Again, a good example of this is how Scourge quickly disappeared again, and then Reaper showed up. Or how the disappearance of certain things and alteration of small traits allowed Weavers to run Water, which now we have really really powerful Weaver play showing up again. When these kind of "sleeper builds" are activated because of the appearance of something that it is good at countering, or the disappearance of something that used to counter it hard, the entire intra-class dynamic within the meta shifts completely. Something like D/P that was doing great, can be functionally pushed out by default, when people realize that what is currently strong and in play are things that are slow and melee range, and that by playing P/D they don't ever actually have to get close to those specs while +ing. <- And that is why P/D is better right now. It doesn't have to go get close to things are currently OP like Reapers or Holos or Weavers or Heralds, ect ect.

The only things P/D Thief has to worry about it that can reliably actually kill it are:

Sic Em DPS Soulbeasts
Other Thieves

Dying to anything else is a misplay in positioning, skill use, and map awareness. The only time I'd say that isn't true, is if your team is being snowballed so hard that you've got 3 guys chasing you on various classes any time you leave the gate. But other than that, you should be able to run circles around the map and disengage any opponents outside of Soulbeasts & other Thieves, while staying permanently stealthed even.

Well thats true , things has changed , the most important is the perma resistance rev nerf but cthief got nerfed to (not to the ground ) At the end thats a player choice to pick cthief or daredevil both has lot of differences while matching the same role

Im not agreeing with that , i thing both necro or power rev/maybe holo can punish cthief if it tryes to stay on a fight , but at the end cthief is almost all about the first burst , everyone runs resistance or revenant runes and thats mostly why i think daredevil is way better . The rupting potential of daredevil has ,at lest for me , way more utility .

Also i dont think core has more mivility , dash is overpowered movility alone and u can use it 4 times in a row (with signet)

At the end is all a players choice tbh , both builds has their own value

My team and I have tried to analyze this a great deal actually because some people wanted me to start playing that P/D build over DPS Soulbeast and I definitely can see why. The thing that we mainly had noticed is this:

The P/D build does one janky thing a lot better than any other + in the game right now. The + that it lands isn't really so much about if it lands the 1HKO burst DAMAGE, as much as it is about how much pressure that burst lays on someone to make them burn through all their CDs to survive it.

In AT final rounds just as an example, most players are generally around the same skill level, usually how it works out. Even MAT winning teams will only beat P2 teams by a margin of 500 to 400 or something. So we're talking about a lot of players in 1 game who have played GW2 for almost 9 years, who are operating their build structures and understanding of this game at or nearly at peak levels. In this type of situation, if I am playing a DPS Soulbeast and I get caught on a side node against a player who is of equal skill & experience, the 1v1 will be tight and clutch. Someone is going to win the 1v1 by some small margin of error on the other person's part. When you're talking 1v1s with people using builds at peak performance, the 1v1 is usually decided by someone making a single mistake, which allows snowball in the 1v1 situation. Now with the P/D Thief, what it does better than anything else, is that it doesn't need to stay and fight during the +. All it needs to do is be real sneaky and make sure the person doesn't know the burst is coming, it has plenty of stealth to do this. And then land that burst, which is so much condi, even in reapplied doses after the first clear phase, that the person who is +d on has to burn through everything they have or die. When that person was already in a clutch 1v1 situation, the Thief doesn't actually need to stay to know the player who was +'d is going to lose the 1v1. So the idea of "the P/D Thief staying in the team fight" that's not actually how people are playing it at all. They are just showing up, blowing off a huge burst on a susceptible target, and then leaving, knowing that guy is going to get downed because he has no CDs left to work with. The ones who are good on this build are actually not staying in team fights longer than about 2 seconds.

With a D/P or S/D Thief, if they go to + on someone, they actually have to go near that person and their opening damage is like 1/3rd or less of the P/D Thief. They have to stay longer to deal their damage and put themselves at risk of taking damage from the guy who is defending 1v2. Once that guy who is in a 1v2 sees the Thief revealed, he then becomes alert and can counter play that also smaller damage. This generally results in time to stall while a team mate comes to + for an even 2v2, but that just isn't possible with the way P/D is being played. It deals its + in 2s to 4s at range and then leaves and rotates around the map to do the same thing in other places constantly. So these other Thief builds or like say a DPS Soulbeast, grant tells that allow counter play whereas the P/D Thief does not. Also those builds deal damage with consecutive strikes and not all in the first 1/2 second of the first stealth approach like P/D. Let me explain this:

Other Thieves strike a veteran player with the first backstab or w/e stealth attack it is. The experienced veteran hears that first ting ting and starts blocking or evades or invulns or something, dodges, begins counter play vs. the rest of that power based Thief damage. But with P/D Thief, you just eat this enormous burst directly out of stealth, that pressures the hell out of all your CDs instantly.
Same with Soulbeast just as example. The Rapid Fire, Barrage, even going in swinging with Maul, these all have tells and is damage dealt over several actual strikes, therefore stronger counter exists against this. Then of course Soulbeast cannot perma stealth and instantly teleport to the other side of the map to do it again to someone on only about a 20s CD.

Sure, DP and SD are better in some situations, but this PD play style is ridiculously easy to run and way too effective for how easy it is. It needs to lose something. It's just packing way too much nowadays.

I'd also like to point in support to what I just explained, to how most utilities & clears work. So we have a lot of skills in the game like Contemplation of Purity which is a stun break and full clear simultaneously. Or on a Ranger Zephyr and Light Reflexes which are both 2 clear and stun break or even Troll as a 4 condi clear. You also have things like Shake it off, condi clear and stun break, ect ect. So the point I'm trying to make is how when you are against a power build, you mainly are concerned with using those sorts of abilities/traits/utilities for the stun breaks. But when something like the P/D Thief comes in with such an enormous condi burst, you have to start burning through those skills which are supposed to be wisely used simply for the condi clears, and then you have no stun breaks left. I guess my ultimate point here, is that considering how clears are distributed amongst defensive abilities in this game, no condi build should ever exist that can show up and burst you for 40k damage out of stealth in .25 seconds. That's incredibly mechanically imbalanced considering how condi clears work on most classes, concerning what they have to sacrifice to be able to cycle through that many clears quickly enough to not die from that burst.

^ This is nothing new. We've been pointing this out to Arenanet since year 1. Condi builds should never have burst. It should always be attrition for that very reason.

Dirame.8521 · August 15, 2020

You are all wrong. This is the best burst DPS: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxcAXOoY7jE

Sindrener.1592 · August 15, 2020

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
@wevh.2903 said:
@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
@wevh.2903 said:
@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
@wevh.2903 said:
@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
@wevh.2903 said:
@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Concerning actual practicality in a match, here are the actual burst builds that work:
P/D Core Thief - This has the best burst right now. It is also a very frequent low CD death burst. The build also has great stealth & disengage.
Power Herald - Still one of the best single target burst in team fights when done correctly. It also has strong consistent DPS, not just burst.
Power Soulbeast - This launches comparable damage to P/D Thief but it's on triple the CD, has way less stealth and way less mobility.
Power Mesmer/Chrono/Mirage - It's kind of meh right now, but it can still function if played by a veteran.
Anything else not on this list is not on the list because it isn't actually a burst class/build. A lot of people would tell you Guardian or Holo or Reaper or even some Ele builds have "burst" right now but that isn't really true. Some builds are just generally overpowered and are dealing too much consistent damage with literally everything they do in this current meta. Guardian is spitting out this barrage of random kitten AoE power and condi all over the place. Holo is slapping around tons of damage with literally everything it does, now with mid range death barrage from grenades. Reaper with a Lich elite is just over-tuned right now to the point that you can actually hit buttons immediately off of CD to stay aggressive for maximum consistent DPS values, and there is little to no penalty for doing so while not thinking.
So yeah anyway, my response is directed towards the actual burst class/builds in a traditional sense. If you want a list of what's dealing a lot of damage considering the level of sustain it has, you'd be looking at something more like this:
P/D Core Thief
Power Reaper
Grenade Holosaiyan
Core Guard "Lots of variations work"
Weaver "Lots of good variations here"

Pd core thief dies easily when focused

No, it doesn't. It has multiple teleports, stealths, wears carrion, and spams weakness on all the power damage. For the level of ranged damage it deals and how frequent it is, the sustain & disengage is outrageous. In example, consider how a Core Warrior who has to melee is far easier to focus and actually kill than a P/D Thief and has roughly half the damage output during a burst. P/D Thief is currently extremely loaded, including its sustain. The weakness should be removed from the build entirely aside from blasting shortbow 2 on shortbow 4, which is actually a considerable amount of init to invest for procing an AoE weakness.

Again , warrior and thief role are COMPLETELY diffeeent , dunno if u know the differente of a dueler and a roamer but u cant compare them thats ridiculous . Core dp has literally one teleport with 50s using daggger 2 when focused by two or more persons is not viable u will prob get a cc chain and die . There is only one stelath with big cd too , dagger 5 is like dagger 2 not viable wheb focused , the health is easily rupteable with 1s cast time. The condi burst is nice ? Ofc but like every top player says (sindrener , boyce..) c thief dies easily when focused not likely dsredevil wich is nearly inmortal . Literally when boyce plays ranger he farms c thief when they has shadow step and he says it on stream , no shadow step =kill

Not sure who you're trying to convince, but I'm one of the wrong guys to argue with here:

I run 3 or 4 ATs a day and 90% of the time make it to the final round, sometimes win. P/D Thief is better at running than D/P Thief. P/D Thief uses the very same Shadow Step teleport and Shortbow as the D/P Thief. The P/D Thief also often brings a 2nd stun break
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blinding_Powder
which is also another instant on-demand stealth that does not require monkeying around with black powder shot blasting and init burning, which = more shortbow 5. The P/D Thief actually has more resource for shortbow 5 porting because it has several methods to stealth without burning initiative = more ability to disengage very quickly. P/D Thief is currently by far the fastest class in the game mobility wise and equal to a D/P Thief in ability to stay permanently stealthed if it really wants, and it can do this without burning initiative whatsoever. P/D is harder to kill that D/P Thief if it is disengaging.
What you heard Sindrender reference, was probably him mentioning how it plays when it is trying to STAY in combat. Of course a P/D isn't going to be as evasive while STAYING in the fight, as a S/D or a Staff Daredevil. This goes into what you said yourself about the difference between a Team Fighter and a DPS Roamer. I couldn't agree more, as a person who plays a glass cannon Soulbeast. I'm great in 1v1s, plenty of evasion for 1v1s. I'm great for getting in dropping a lot of damage and leaving quickly, plenty of cooldowns for that. But if I try to stay in a fight say a 3v3, I can die instantly if caught wrong, even if things like FBs and Tempests are supporting me. The P/D Thief is the same. It is a burst class/build. It needs to get in on a good approach, back off and approach again. It cant' stay in combat while dealing steady DPS while maintaining a generally defensive repose in the same way that an S/D could. But while actively disengaging, the P/D is faster than all the other Thief variants while preserving more init.
If a player has great map awareness and also has good team communication via a voice chat, the P/D Thief is much harder to catch and kill than any other Thief variant. It also wears Carrion and spams high weakness uptime. Come on my dude.
You bring up Boyce's footage. Of course Boyce farms P/D Thieves. He runs a build that is almost identical to the build that I have been running for a little over 2 years now. Soulbeast archetypes like this are the one build that can actually bully and secure kills on a P/D Thief. I do the very same thing in NA all day long in ATs. Currently the only Thief that I can't handle in NA, is oEnvy. A lot of it has to do with how his team comps are arranged vs. my own, but also because the guy is sporadic and always in a weird spot, hard to read. But I farm the rest of them, P/D S/D D/P doesn't matter, to the point that they actively avoid my Soulbeast unless they're 2v1 +ing, and even then I'll instantly down them most of the time before that 2v1 is finished. The reason why Soulbeast can counter Thief so hard is obviously for two reasons: 1) Sic Em reveal, and 2) Smoke Assault. Smoke Assault once it is active, will follow a Thief anywhere that he is able to teleport. So if I open up a burst on a P/D Thief beginning with Rapid Fire and One Wolf Pack, I just follow with Smoke Assault after that and no matter where the Thief goes, I'll still be on top of his head when we land.
And it's funny to bring this up because you acted as if P/D Thief had bad disengage. However in the past day or two, there was one point where I was chasing oEnvy in Legacy. We were at mid and I went to finish a burst on him, guy teleports up a ledge from mid, teleports half way to far with Shadow Step, teleports to the far node directly, and I stay on top of him the entire time due to Smoke Assault. This distance of travel happens in the very short time that it takes me to finish a single Smoke Assault. Roughly 1 and a half seconds. If I wasn't a Soulbeast with Sic Em reveal and Smoke Assault, it would be impossible to chase/catch that. Seriously, no other build could reveal him for so long while sticking to him during those long distance teleports. Even Herald Unrelenting Assault is limited compared to Smoke Assault. Soulbeast is the only build in the game that can kitten on a P/D like that.

Anyway, P/D Thief is loaded dude. It's too powerful in terms of skill entry and skill ceiling alike. I'm a bad Thief player, and even I can get on that build and immediately be dangerous as hell on it.

If u pretty much know the differenre between a dueler and a roamer whyU compared them at first instance (warr and thief) If we r not talking about staying on a fight as a thief what we r talking about? I mean what kind of situatiom r u talking about ?disengaging? Ofc a thief will disengage a 3v2 and u wont chatch it , why would u chase a thief in that situation? XdThief will disengage every situation but as long as it gets into the fight will thats what im talking aboutBy easily killed when focused ofc im refering when thief has to stay obliged on a teamfight or on a 2v2 against other thief , in what other situation would be ? +1 someone and leave cuz u couldnt 2v1 and the situatiom went 2v2?

Im not saying cthief is bad , nothing nearly ,cthief has a big good burst when it comes to +1 or trying to kill someone on a teamfight but if it fails u do prrtty much nothing . Im saying that if cthief is obliged to obviolsy stay on a fight it is easily punished by focusing , dunno if u saying that cthief has a big stealth access , it has two reliable sources of stealth :heath (1s cast time ) and shadow refuge/blinding powder both with big cd ,picking venom means dropping a big sustain utility .

If u say pd is better than dp but i think mota already gave us an answer ;)

Also soulbeast sick em was a example of how cthief cant survive while pd daredevil could on the same situation , to not count being rooted or chilled etc .

Dude things have evolved greatly since the mota. P/D Thief is just better than D/P right now.

These 2 month patchings that constantly reshake the meta do not provide long enough durations of time for any "real meta" to ever actually form. Every time by the end of 2 months, when things are sort of finally settling, then it all changes again. What I'm trying to say is that right now, nearing the end of our current 2 month patching, P/D is being discovered as the best DPS + Roam for several reasons. In the past couple of weeks in NA, I haven't seen a single Thief run anything other than P/D. And that includes legend tier Best Of The Best and Gods Of PvP.

What happens EVERY 2 month patch now, is the same thing:

People find new builds that counter the previous meta and then everyone starts running those builds because they think they are OP. The appearance of Scourge in this previous 2 month patch is a good example of this, as well as the appearance of Flashbang Grenade Holos.
Then people are forced to situate builds that can counter or at least deal with the new strong specs that are appearing, and this is what really drives the formation and settlement of a meta. It also can remove some of those first specs from play that were discovered first. Because a spec is only as good as what it is playing against. Again, a good example of this is how Scourge quickly disappeared again, and then Reaper showed up. Or how the disappearance of certain things and alteration of small traits allowed Weavers to run Water, which now we have really really powerful Weaver play showing up again. When these kind of "sleeper builds" are activated because of the appearance of something that it is good at countering, or the disappearance of something that used to counter it hard, the entire intra-class dynamic within the meta shifts completely. Something like D/P that was doing great, can be functionally pushed out by default, when people realize that what is currently strong and in play are things that are slow and melee range, and that by playing P/D they don't ever actually have to get close to those specs while +ing. <- And that is why P/D is better right now. It doesn't have to go get close to things are currently OP like Reapers or Holos or Weavers or Heralds, ect ect.

The only things P/D Thief has to worry about it that can reliably actually kill it are:

Sic Em DPS Soulbeasts
Other Thieves