No downstate is bad for anything outside of roaming..

[Vova.2640]

Probably an unpopular opinion here..... but... no downstate sucks.Its not fun when everything dies so fast. It makes the game way too snowbally and one sided.Anet next please consider giving everyone 500-1000 vitality(5-10k hp) with no downstate so at least things dont insta-die.Thnx.

[ollbirtan.2915]

I would argue with you on one thing here ---yes downstate is bad. And it's triple bad for solo roaming, unless you are playing thief or some other 1 shot from stealth build.

[gloflop.3510]

Let me say in advance that I like the idea of the no-downstate and would in general support it. However, there is one big problem: The whole game was created with downstate in mind. Removing it will lead to an imbalance. So, for a permanent no-downstate, certain builds have to be banned especially those with stealth plus 1 shot ability.

[Nimon.7840]

@"gloflop.3510" said:Let me say in advance that I like the idea of the no-downstate and would in general support it. However, there is one big problem: The whole game was created with downstate in mind. Removing it will lead to an imbalance. So, for a permanent no-downstate, certain builds have to be banned especially those with stealth plus 1 shot ability.

And you would have to completely rework all classes, that have some revive traits or even skills.

• Mesmer: illusion of life and the medics feedback trait.
• necro: ritual of life, life from death and transfusion
• guard: merciful intervention....

And so on.But since they can't introduce different mechanics in wvw and PvP than they have in pve,...

I don't think this will ever happen. I don't think they are going to remove downstate from pve. That would make raids even harder for normal players (that are already qq'ing about raids being too hard)

Sure you could remove all those interactions with downed players and keep downstate in pve. So the only way to get someone up would be pressing f.But I think that would be awful game design.That would be like having a trait, that has no synergies at all. (Yes I'm looking at you "bloodbank") like having a shout trait on thief.

[Dawdler.8521]

Funny, I think its the complete opposite. I literally dont care if one zerg gets steamrolled due to no downed state, but its when roaming/smallscaling the lack of it really makes the combat shallow, unfulfilling and too quick. Its when roaming you really need to think about who do engage, how to stomp, how to res, etc. While zerging thats just braindead activities.

[ASP.8093]

@ollbirtan.2915 said:I would argue with you on one thing here ---yes downstate is bad. And it's triple bad for solo roaming, unless you are playing thief or some other 1 shot from stealth build.

I don't find enemy down state any more of a liability playing condi renegade than I do playing thief, despite the very different set of tools for interacting with it.

[TheGrimm.5624]

All of these kind of show that downstate needs adjustment. Since everyone here, myself included, are having different experiences it shows it impacts play and play style and build and maybe not in a good way.

@Vova.2640 said:Its not fun when everything dies so fast. It makes the game way too snowbally and one sided.

For the zerg play I have been in, it's not that different from normal, but people are having to return to the fight. Which I admit I see as a change we could use under DS. Defeated, you have to come back. That creates meaning in defeating people but still leaves tactical play to get downed back up.

This has also introduced more opportunity to apply tactics that slow people returning to the fight creating more fights. I think waypoint contension needs adjustment but its a valid tactic to block a waypoint to slow the return of either defenders or attacker. And it create the potential for more fights as people travel back to the larger one.

If anything I would say it's less snowballish. Example, enemy zerg was moving from NEC to NET, a smaller force was spawning in and hitting them from citadel. Under NDS that smaller force could be effective on thinning that attacking force till they could finally face equal numbers and remove the attacking force. Under DS the attackers could just replenish their numbers on the spot and keep moving forward since the side with less might just stop trying to slow them since they couldn't actually thin them out to even out the numbers. DS encourages the 'let them have it we will come back later mentality'.

@ollbirtan.2915 said:And it's triple bad for solo roaming, unless you are playing thief or some other 1 shot from stealth build.

While roaming, have been on Scourge, Power Rev, Condi Rev, Power Soulbeast, and condi core Thief (P/D), and plan on power Daredevil and power melee Scrapper. So far this week has only encouraged me to attack everything. Roamers, havocs, warbands and zergs. Dropping a target has more meaning even if they are rezzed while defeated. It's even more meaningful if they release and have to come back since it diminished the other side. During normal weeks its more vanity to take on some havocs, and definitely while attacking warbands and zergs, you aren't going to accomplish anything. So it just discourages some fights. So I would have to agree with Vova that while I roam NDS says attack first, question later.

@gloflop.3510 said:Let me say in advance that I like the idea of the no-downstate and would in general support it. However, there is one big problem: The whole game was created with downstate in mind. Removing it will lead to an imbalance. So, for a permanent no-downstate, certain builds have to be banned especially those with stealth plus 1 shot ability.

I like NDS as well but wouldn't say make it permanent without first trying to adjust it so that it favors numbers less. If for some reason we can't adjust DS, then yes I would side on the flatout remove it group, but I don't believe it can't be better tuned to meet multiple needs.

As far as 1-shot builds, I still challenge the forums, are we getting 1-shot or is someone getting their full rotation off on us and dropping us I had one fellow roamer drop me over the weekend with their full rotation but I had them at half health at the same time. Outside of that it's usually multiple rotations before being downed, and really can't recall 1-shot killed in years. So again is this an issue with glass on glass? I wouldn't say that NDS would require removal of any builds since that build prior to NDS would still be dropping people today. So that should be a separate issue outside of DS. In the past we did have 1-2 shot builds, but are people still really experiencing that, because quite frankly, am not, as a mostly roamer/havoc.

@Nimon.7840 said:And you would have to completely rework all classes, that have some revive traits or even skills.

Either way we could probably use some balancing here. As other have used in previous threads, take an ele mist-form versus the engi's pull them to you. One is much more useful than the other. Even further is take either of those and compare to Necro or ranger. Yes it's a nice feature that they have unique abilities but its not balanced at all.

@Nimon.7840 said:But since they can't introduce different mechanics in wvw and PvP than they have in pve,...

They have already broken out skills across game modes. Not sure I would see this being different than that change, and besides, that's why they are developers. As customers we should be pointing out things to improve the game that make us want to play it more and leave it to them to figure out the how. It's fine to say a change would impact our gameplay and why, but it's not fine to use we can't see how they would code it unless we were involved in the coding ourselves. Leave ANet to tell the players that themselves.

@Dawdler.8521 said:Its when roaming you really need to think about who do engage, how to stomp, how to res, etc. While zerging thats just braindead activities.

I think that the tactical bit of DS is what gives it the best argument that it should be there, and the fact that with zerg play its less tactical since a larger force negates those tactics. In zerg play the larger side has enough to keep the fight going and spares to get people back up. That's where we need adjustment. Numbers alone shouldn't decide things.

@ASP.8093 said:I don't find enemy down state any more of a liability playing condi renegade than I do playing thief, despite the very different set of tools for interacting with it.

Have to agree, and hadn't been on any of my thieves for months until two weeks ago after I found I needed practice when a core thief did an excellent job kiting and took out my scrapper 3 times after extended fights. At the same time the number of less successful ones that died doing the samething indicates that its not the class but the player knowing their build, play style and class. You should code when everyone can use the same combo and eliminate all targets, but you shouldn't when it's just a few that are combining options and getting different results than the all rest.

[ASP.8093]

I really want to see a "double-down" test week where getting downed once gives you more downed penalty, possibly also extended to last 2-5 minutes instead of 1 minute. Like, put revived players all the way to red (insta-killed on next down) or gold (25% hp on next down) and see if that addresses the "down-state ping pong" problem with zergs. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Downed_penalty

[Biermeister.4678]

Love no downstate no insta res from blob fights and the flights are better