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Invisibility has Gotten out of Hand


Vlad Morbius.1759

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@"AikijinX.6258" said:The Problem is that Anet gave Stealth access to almost every class, when it was supposed to be unique to Thieves and I suppose Mesmers. Every class has some type of uniqueness to them, while ironically Thieves have had their uniqueness in Stealth stolen as well as heavily neutered, with all these abilities placing Reveal and Marked on them.

Too much stealth- People complainToo much evade- People complainToo much damage- People complainToo much mobility- People complainToo many teleports- People complainToo much blind- People complainToo many spammable skills- People complainToo much access to poison- People complainToo much condition capability- People complainAbility to Teleport allies- People Complain

People need to chill.

No, not to every class. Revenant, warrior and guard dont have as much evades and they sure dont have access to stealth. (Granted im not saying they should, bare with me for one moment please <3) But Engineer has it, Ranger has it, Thief, messmer ? Now thief and mess I get, its their thing with messmer having clones and thief having steal as their unique special thing. But why does ranger have it? Shouldn't they be the designated reveal due to pet and scent? Would make them far more desired as they'd be able to counter stealth (Which logically makes sense, given they have an animal companion.) Like maybe for ranger, stealth just does not work because of the pet. But if the pet is down than it will? Makes thieves and messmers need to adapt to that and offers ranger a special role, where as now all they are and have been is "SoUlBeAsT go pew pew pew" and "I am the longest of range".

Engineer in my opinion shouldn't have stealth either... its like a band-aid not an actual fix to kit issues that may exist for the class. Stealth is not some blanket you can throw on something because you, yourself cant figure out what to offer the class. What next? Stealthing warriors/guards blowing you up? Revenant having perma-stealth? No. Let messmer and thief have their stuff, give the others unique ways in handling it. (Rev could work just like demon hunter from wow, where they have a mechanic that allows them to peer through the mists to see stealthed targets. Warrior could have sixth sense which occasionally would allow for foot-step pulses, when a stealthed enemy is nearby and guardian could have "lights sight" where they can every so often pulse light to reveal targets. Kinda like a signal flare. There are unique ways around it...)

We need more diversity for classes, and more unique goodies LOCKED to classes to make them different. Stop giving everyones toys to everyone, give them their own toys with their own goodies and their OWN gimmicks. We do not need every class to have the ability to do what another does, we need classes to bring more to the table and be more unique. (How long, in PvE end-game has it been where banner slave is the ideal warrior build? I know its for raids/strikes but STILL WHY.)

I do agree people need to chill out, but A-net needs to fix their design and give classes their own... well "tools" rather than just dumping them like band-aids to fix a problem prevalent from core on. I can see it now, everyone will get stealth in their kit next expansion lmfao then no one would have a right to complain, even though a good majority don't want it. I mean my thief build doesn't even utilize stealth at all and it works....

A good example of a unique thing, brought by an E-spec is barrier. It was necro's thing.... and then they gave it to literally EVERYONE. WHY!? It was the scourges special thing to make them unique, but now everyone has it. Same with Alacrity which was messmers thing... you just dump it on rev and make it even EASIER for rev to provide it than messmer? Let the classes be special. Homogenization is not good...

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@"Thornwolf.9721" said:Now thief and mess I get, its their thing with messmer having clones and thief having steal as their unique special thing. But why does ranger have it? Shouldn't they be the designated reveal due to pet and scent? Would make them far more desired as they'd be able to counter stealth (Which logically makes sense, given they have an animal companion.) Like maybe for ranger, stealth just does not work because of the pet. But if the pet is down than it will? Makes thieves and messmers need to adapt to that and offers ranger a special role, where as now all they are and have been is "SoUlBeAsT go pew pew pew" and "I am the longest of range".It's because you are looking at this too much from a solo perspective but it is a multiplayer game.

For example, while Rangers always had the stealth shot on LB3, all the other stealth it has is group-utility which came in a group kit with HoT to make the class more attractive for larger scale gameplay. That ArenaNet later has failed to sufficiently deliver on that and even squandered what it had is another discussion. On a concept level all that stealth was stealth group utility. The same goes for the Engineer. It always had bomb-smoke blasts and elixir S but the stealth gyro came with a rather interesting and unique group-support mechanic that later was abandoned. It was streamlined out of the game. Which on one hand is understandable but on the other hand is a shame because it was mostly a positive addition that made things more diverse (it hid numbers rather than hiding players initially, letting players see the gyro but not what was under it).

It could of course be argued that those classes which had little presence and appeal in larger scale back in 2014 could have been given other forms of group utility but back then that sort of group utility was pretty uncommon and still is to some degree today. Group stealthing at larger scale is often rarely used to its potential even if it does see somewhat sporadic common use. It is hard to come up with new and more unique stuff - and if ArenaNet was to find some successful quality new design in WvW this is hardly the place where it is most needed.

Again, much of the current ongoing discussions about downstate, stealth and support in general suffers from the amount of rather inexperienced players on ganking builds and classes talking rather aggressively in them. At the same time, that is not too surprising either as that is reflective of the content at smaller scale today or the rather large content differences between EU and NA or different tiers. While that is down to player behaviour it is also a question of the size of the remaining playerbases and much more about what people do differently than what people can do. What people can do (and thus do somewhere) is far more important for a balance discussion than what people do not do because content is missing.

Anyway, stealth isn't as much of an issue overall as it is an issue tied to the Deadeye (to some degree the Daredevil, but not as much of a problem).

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@subversiontwo.7501 said:

@"Thornwolf.9721" said:Now thief and mess I get, its their thing with messmer having clones and thief having steal as their unique special thing. But why does ranger have it? Shouldn't they be the designated reveal due to pet and scent? Would make them far more desired as they'd be able to counter stealth (Which logically makes sense, given they have an animal companion.) Like maybe for ranger, stealth just does not work because of the pet. But if the pet is down than it will? Makes thieves and messmers need to adapt to that and offers ranger a special role, where as now all they are and have been is "SoUlBeAsT go pew pew pew" and "I am the longest of range".It's because you are looking at this too much from a solo perspective but it is a multiplayer game.

For example, while Rangers always had the stealth shot on LB3, all the other stealth it has is group-utility which came in a group kit with HoT to make the class more attractive for larger scale gameplay. That ArenaNet later has failed to sufficiently deliver on that and even squandered what it had is another discussion. On a concept level all that stealth was stealth group utility. The same goes for the Engineer. It always had bomb-smoke blasts and elixir S but the stealth gyro came with a rather interesting and unique group-support mechanic that later was abandoned. It was streamlined out of the game. Which on one hand is understandable but on the other hand is a shame because it was mostly a positive addition that made things more diverse (it hid numbers rather than hiding players initially, letting players see the gyro but not what was under it).

It could of course be argued that those classes which had little presence and appeal in larger scale back in 2014 could have been given other forms of group utility but back then that sort of group utility was pretty uncommon and still is to some degree today. Group stealthing at larger scale is often rarely used to its potential even if it does see somewhat sporadic common use. It is hard to come up with new and more unique stuff - and if ArenaNet was to find some successful quality new design in WvW this is hardly the place where it is most needed.

Again, much of the current ongoing discussions about downstate, stealth and support in general suffers from the amount of rather inexperienced players on ganking builds and classes talking rather aggressively in them. At the same time, that is not too surprising either as that is reflective of the content at smaller scale today or the rather large content differences between EU and NA or different tiers. While that is down to player behaviour it is also a question of the size of the remaining playerbases and much more about what people do differently than what people can do. What people can do (and thus do somewhere) is far more important for a balance discussion than what people do not do because content is missing.

Anyway, stealth isn't as much of an issue overall as it is an issue tied to the Deadeye (to some degree the Daredevil, but not as much of a problem).

Im a solo player most of the time, nothing in this game has ever enticed me to not be? In fact most of it encourages one to do so. I am apart of a single guild which is my family guild and I run reset with them, and run with them when they WvW. But thats besides the point. NOT every class needs to have stealth, they need ways around and to deal with it. All classes need to bring something unique to the table, handing revenant alacrity is the equivalent of handing messmer battle-scars or Kalla's fervor. There is a reason why messmer had it, another class doesn't necessarily need it.

So when it comes down to design, what next? A stealth warrior? That would go over well I assume. Or how about guardian with death shroud? I draw the line at every class having EVERY tool; They dont need it. At the point in which all tools are shared acrossed all classes you might as well just merge them all together into one class and call it a day because essentially the more boons/buffs/mechanics shared between classes the more likely they will begin to feel the same. I like the classes I play BECAUSE of what they are and their uniqueness, I dont want thief to feel like a squishier warrior. And I dont want warrior to feel like a tanky thief, I want them to be unique and different to one another that its almost like a different game because of the gameplay loop. But the more and more that gets trickled down to classes (Im sure we will see much, much more of this going forward.) The less incentive I have to play other classes.

I use "I" a lot in this because I dont wana assume something for another person. But I will say I feel Im not the only one who feels this way, tell me when you made your first character did you do it because someone told you X is more viable than Y or did you do it because you saw the name, color and played it for a bit and went "Yea I like this?" Because classes I used to love (Warrior, rev... even ranger to some extent) all have begun to feel diluted and lame. Ever since the balance patch a while back I've found they are just less and less fun to play. Key word is fun which does not equal balanced... sometimes you need to sacrifice pure balance for the rule of "fun". Because once something is no longer fun, rewarding and exciting that becomes the moment when its dropped in favor of something else. But there are players like me out there who will dabble for a time, but eventually (this is what happened with WoW and I after legion) they quit.

I am one person, I dont matter. But I highly doubt im the only one who feels this way; One can become ten really quick. The more mechanics and benefits you share between classes the more people will just go "meh" and be done. Especially when X does better than Y when Y was the initial one to bring forth such a mechanic, it then begs the question as to why Y needs to exist in that state at all or even be applicable.

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@"Virdo.1540" said:stealth needs to be unstackable in duration ,like superspeed.

together with that, reveal should make players immune to becoming invisible, not just undo invis after some seconds. Perma-Reveal,like from new taken keeps) still opens the way to perma-stealth.

Revealed already does this. I think you are confusing it with Marked.

D:

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@"AikijinX.6258" said:The Problem is that Anet gave Stealth access to almost every class, when it was supposed to be unique to Thieves and I suppose Mesmers. Every class has some type of uniqueness to them, while ironically Thieves have had their uniqueness in Stealth stolen as well as heavily neutered, with all these abilities placing Reveal and Marked on them.

Too much stealth- People complainToo much evade- People complainToo much damage- People complainToo much mobility- People complainToo many teleports- People complainToo much blind- People complainToo many spammable skills- People complainToo much access to poison- People complainToo much condition capability- People complainAbility to Teleport allies- People Complain

People need to chill.

Huh? Rangers have more rights to stealth than mesmers and engis...dunno if you noticed but rangers have access to stealth in every single game, from single player RPG to hundreds other MMOs out there , the ranger archetype have had access to stealth for the last 40 years of videogame or so...heck even in fantasy movies, rangers are known for the stealth abilities

https://aion.fandom.com/wiki/Stealth#:~:text=Stealth%20is%20a%20skill%20that,two%20forms%3A%20Basic%20and%20Advanced.https://wow.gamepedia.com/Camouflage_(hunter_abilityhttps://www.bladeandsoul.com/en/news/zen-archer-class-preview/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranger_(character_class)

So sorry to break your bubble but stealth in no game is exclusive to thieves/rogues

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@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:speed: 10%damage: 5%no blinks, teleports etc

while in stealth.

What would then be the use of stealth? Considering that stealth doesn't prevent any damage to yourself it would just turn you into a sitting duck. You might as well just use Alt+F4 if you want to lose a fight.

well, it would be better than currently where stealth using classes can engage and disengage at will dishing out insane amounts of damage and just run if anything goes wrong.

No, it wouldn't. It would be worthless for nearly anything other than permastelathing around points, which is the opposite of what should be the result of any change applied to stealth.

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@GDchiaScrub.3241 said:

@"Virdo.1540" said:stealth needs to be unstackable in duration ,like superspeed.

together with that, reveal should make players immune to becoming invisible, not just undo invis after some seconds. Perma-Reveal,like from new taken keeps) still opens the way to perma-stealth.

already does this. I think you are confusing it with
.

D:

Since some things do both (Sentries) I get confused. Target painter [&trap] just says it marks people - I thought that was supposed to be an anti-stealth device?

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@Svarty.8019 said:

@"Virdo.1540" said:stealth needs to be unstackable in duration ,like superspeed.

together with that, reveal should make players immune to becoming invisible, not just undo invis after some seconds. Perma-Reveal,like from new taken keeps) still opens the way to perma-stealth.

already does this. I think you are confusing it with
.

D:

Since some things do both (Sentries) I get confused. Target painter [&trap] just says it marks people - I thought that was supposed to be an anti-stealth device?

If you don't understand basic game mechanics, go ahead and read the wiki before you try starting a discussion about them :(

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@Svarty.8019 said:

@"Virdo.1540" said:stealth needs to be unstackable in duration ,like superspeed.

together with that, reveal should make players immune to becoming invisible, not just undo invis after some seconds. Perma-Reveal,like from new taken keeps) still opens the way to perma-stealth.

already does this. I think you are confusing it with
.

D:

Since some things do both (Sentries) I get confused. Target painter [&trap] just says it marks people - I thought that was supposed to be an anti-stealth device?

I ain't here to fix ANET's descriptions. They all contribute to being "anti-stealth," but "Marked" merely requires extra steps.

Step 1: You get "Marked" by thingsStep 2: If you go into stealth, while under the effect "Marked" you then become "Detected!".Step 3: Detected! causes you to become Revealed if you are in stealth for more than 2 seconds during the Detected! effect. (I don't know if this means you get revealed instantly by trap/painter due to probably being in stealth for 2 seconds or longer anyway)

Your confusion is warranted because it's sloppy, but I suspect the "Detected!" is suppose to give you warning.

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@Sobx.1758 said:

@"Virdo.1540" said:stealth needs to be unstackable in duration ,like superspeed.

together with that, reveal should make players immune to becoming invisible, not just undo invis after some seconds. Perma-Reveal,like from new taken keeps) still opens the way to perma-stealth.

already does this. I think you are confusing it with
.

D:

Since some things do both (Sentries) I get confused. Target painter [&trap] just says it marks people - I thought that was supposed to be an anti-stealth device?

If you don't understand basic game mechanics, go ahead and read the wiki before you try starting a discussion about them :(

It isn't actually basic game mechanics considering I don't recall half of these things being present in PvE or even Spvp (though I haven't cared for that game mode since like 2018. Stop being so quick to pounce.

Marked, Detected! and Revealed are three dumb steps to produce one mechanic (Anti-stealth) that simply sees little use outside of WvW.

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@GDchiaScrub.3241 said:

@"Virdo.1540" said:stealth needs to be unstackable in duration ,like superspeed.

together with that, reveal should make players immune to becoming invisible, not just undo invis after some seconds. Perma-Reveal,like from new taken keeps) still opens the way to perma-stealth.

already does this. I think you are confusing it with
.

D:

Since some things do both (Sentries) I get confused. Target painter [&trap] just says it marks people - I thought that was supposed to be an anti-stealth device?

If you don't understand basic game mechanics, go ahead and read the wiki before you try starting a discussion about them :(

It isn't actually basic game mechanics considering I don't recall half of these things being present in PvE or even Spvp (though I haven't cared for that game mode since like 2018. Stop being so quick to pounce.

Marked, Detected! and Revealed are three dumb steps to produce one mechanic (Anti-stealth) that simply sees little use outside of WvW.

It's a weird argument to make that it's not a basic mechanic if it's not in gamemode1, but it is in gamemode2. Seems basic enough to me to call it that.

But yeah, I think there are better ways to balance stealth "around itself".

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@Balkarrie Legacy.9175 said:Preventing stealth stomps in WvW should be the first thing ,its an offensive action and shouldn`t permit a player to remain stealthed esp that bovine scat teleport stealth stomp.Prevent players stealthing if taking damage , cut durations, limit the times you can stealth within a 15 second time frame , prevent revealed players stripping that reveal

Love this idea that a player blowing a bunch of initiative and their highest-value cooldown to make a pretty floaty unicorn pop out of your dead body is also OP now.

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@Sobx.1758 said:

@"Virdo.1540" said:stealth needs to be unstackable in duration ,like superspeed.

together with that, reveal should make players immune to becoming invisible, not just undo invis after some seconds. Perma-Reveal,like from new taken keeps) still opens the way to perma-stealth.

already does this. I think you are confusing it with
.

D:

Since some things do both (Sentries) I get confused. Target painter [&trap] just says it marks people - I thought that was supposed to be an anti-stealth device?

If you don't understand basic game mechanics, go ahead and read the wiki before you try starting a discussion about them :(

It isn't actually basic game mechanics considering I don't recall half of these things being present in PvE or even Spvp (though I haven't cared for that game mode since like 2018. Stop being so quick to pounce.

Marked, Detected! and Revealed are three dumb steps to produce one mechanic (Anti-stealth) that simply sees little use outside of WvW.

It's a weird argument to make that it's not a basic mechanic if it's not in gamemode1, but it is in gamemode2. Seems basic enough to me to call it that.

But yeah, I think there are better ways to balance stealth "around itself".

It's not weird. It's just semantics between what each of us considers a "basic mechanic." It'd be more accurate to say universal mechanic I guess, but it only feels like scratching the bottom of the barrel if the mechanic is present in "game mode 1" but not game mode 2 (PvE) and game mode 3 (Spvp). Then of course the sub-systems of other two game modes. Regardless, WvW has the illustrious position of being the minority and not the normal e.g. not "Basic." I mean. I don't think anyone in this forum would want to be called basic! Omg. Absolutely rude.

D:

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@GDchiaScrub.3241 said:

@"Virdo.1540" said:stealth needs to be unstackable in duration ,like superspeed.

together with that, reveal should make players immune to becoming invisible, not just undo invis after some seconds. Perma-Reveal,like from new taken keeps) still opens the way to perma-stealth.

already does this. I think you are confusing it with
.

D:

Since some things do both (Sentries) I get confused. Target painter [&trap] just says it marks people - I thought that was supposed to be an anti-stealth device?

If you don't understand basic game mechanics, go ahead and read the wiki before you try starting a discussion about them :(

It isn't actually basic game mechanics considering I don't recall half of these things being present in PvE or even Spvp (though I haven't cared for that game mode since like 2018. Stop being so quick to pounce.

Marked, Detected! and Revealed are three dumb steps to produce one mechanic (Anti-stealth) that simply sees little use outside of WvW.

It's a weird argument to make that it's not a basic mechanic if it's not in gamemode1, but it is in gamemode2. Seems basic enough to me to call it that.

But yeah, I think there are better ways to balance stealth "around itself".

It's not weird. It's just semantics between what each of us considers a "basic mechanic." It'd be more accurate to say universal mechanic I guess, but it only feels like scratching the bottom of the barrel if the mechanic is present in "game mode 1" but not game mode 2 (PvE) and game mode 3 (Spvp). Then of course the sub-systems of other two game modes. Regardless, WvW has the illustrious position of being the minority and not the normal e.g. not "Basic." I mean. I don't think anyone in this forum would want to be called basic! Omg. Absolutely rude.

We're in the subforum of wvw mode, so expecting basic knowledge about its basic mechanics should be expected. And they're not some kind of hidden (ayy) effects, so calling them basic seems fair enough.

btw I'm not sure why you say it'd be "more accurate to say universal", when it clearly wouldn't be as you noticed immediately after. :(

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@Sobx.1758 said:

@"Virdo.1540" said:stealth needs to be unstackable in duration ,like superspeed.

together with that, reveal should make players immune to becoming invisible, not just undo invis after some seconds. Perma-Reveal,like from new taken keeps) still opens the way to perma-stealth.

already does this. I think you are confusing it with
.

D:

Since some things do both (Sentries) I get confused. Target painter [&trap] just says it marks people - I thought that was supposed to be an anti-stealth device?

If you don't understand basic game mechanics, go ahead and read the wiki before you try starting a discussion about them :(

It isn't actually basic game mechanics considering I don't recall half of these things being present in PvE or even Spvp (though I haven't cared for that game mode since like 2018. Stop being so quick to pounce.

Marked, Detected! and Revealed are three dumb steps to produce one mechanic (Anti-stealth) that simply sees little use outside of WvW.

It's a weird argument to make that it's not a basic mechanic if it's not in gamemode1, but it is in gamemode2. Seems basic enough to me to call it that.

But yeah, I think there are better ways to balance stealth "around itself".

It's not weird. It's just semantics between what each of us considers a "basic mechanic." It'd be more accurate to say universal mechanic I guess, but it only feels like scratching the bottom of the barrel if the mechanic is present in "game mode 1" but not game mode 2 (PvE) and game mode 3 (Spvp). Then of course the sub-systems of other two game modes. Regardless, WvW has the illustrious position of being the minority and not the normal e.g. not "Basic." I mean. I don't think anyone in this forum would want to be called basic! Omg. Absolutely rude.

We're in the subforum of wvw mode, so expecting basic knowledge about its basic mechanics should be expected. And they're not some kind of hidden (ayy) effects, so calling them basic seems fair enough.

Forums...are meant for discussion. If people lack knowledge they can ask in particular sub-forums if it helps find the matching audience. I would only expect people keep their questions relevant to the category. For example, don't ask about Raid Bosses in the WvW forums. Why would we disallow basic questions to be asked here? Are we really going down this road? Is the basic knowledge of what forums should be used for lost here?

btw I'm not sure why you say it'd be "more accurate to say universal", when it clearly wouldn't be as you noticed immediately after. :(

"more accurate to say universal I guess"... I had hoped that would signify I wasn't giving a strong definitive statement when attempting another word because listing countless synonyms might not be productive. But. As I said. We're just getting into to semantics. Of course I forget that you can't read my mind, and I recall you falling into a similar situation in the past resulting in bickering over word choice. So. To simplify.

You use Basic Mechanics (as you say) per game mode. Scouts, guild upgrades, siege equipment, etc. is basic to you in this sub-forum.

I used Basic Mechanics for the whole game. Mechanics shared across game modes is basic to me: downstate, stealth (invisibility), classes

There really isn't anything more to be said here. Semantics and context. Forums and discussion.

D:

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@GDchiaScrub.3241 said:

@"Virdo.1540" said:stealth needs to be unstackable in duration ,like superspeed.

together with that, reveal should make players immune to becoming invisible, not just undo invis after some seconds. Perma-Reveal,like from new taken keeps) still opens the way to perma-stealth.

already does this. I think you are confusing it with
.

D:

Since some things do both (Sentries) I get confused. Target painter [&trap] just says it marks people - I thought that was supposed to be an anti-stealth device?

If you don't understand basic game mechanics, go ahead and read the wiki before you try starting a discussion about them :(

It isn't actually basic game mechanics considering I don't recall half of these things being present in PvE or even Spvp (though I haven't cared for that game mode since like 2018. Stop being so quick to pounce.

Marked, Detected! and Revealed are three dumb steps to produce one mechanic (Anti-stealth) that simply sees little use outside of WvW.

It's a weird argument to make that it's not a basic mechanic if it's not in gamemode1, but it is in gamemode2. Seems basic enough to me to call it that.

But yeah, I think there are better ways to balance stealth "around itself".

It's not weird. It's just semantics between what each of us considers a "basic mechanic." It'd be more accurate to say universal mechanic I guess, but it only feels like scratching the bottom of the barrel if the mechanic is present in "game mode 1" but not game mode 2 (PvE) and game mode 3 (Spvp). Then of course the sub-systems of other two game modes. Regardless, WvW has the illustrious position of being the minority and not the normal e.g. not "Basic." I mean. I don't think anyone in this forum would want to be called basic! Omg. Absolutely rude.

We're in the subforum of wvw mode, so expecting basic knowledge about its basic mechanics should be expected. And they're not some kind of hidden (ayy) effects, so calling them basic seems fair enough.

Forums...are meant for discussion
. If people lack knowledge they can ask in particular sub-forums if it helps find the matching audience. I would only expect people keep their questions relevant to the category. For example, don't ask about Raid Bosses in the WvW forums. Why would we disallow basic questions to be asked here? Are we really going down this road? Is the basic knowledge of what forums should be used for lost here?

Did I say people can't ask a question here? But that's the person that kept vouching for "op stealth deletion from the game" for... a pretty long time now. In those circumstances not knowing basic facts surrounding the gamemode and the very mechanic "you" want removed from the game becomes pretty noteworthy. And as such, if he's actually interested in carrying on with any discussion, he should start reading up on the skills and mechanics instead of just screaming "remove!" when apparently he doesn't understand how they work.And yes, forums are meant for discussion, but to have a meaningful discussion it's highly advised (needed?) to actually know the basics of what someone's talking about before going off with some radical opinions. Is this not a reasonable expectation?

You use Basic Mechanics (as you say) per game mode. Scouts, guild upgrades, siege equipment, etc. is basic to you in this sub-forum.

I used Basic Mechanics for the whole game. Mechanics shared across game modes is basic to me: downstate, stealth (invisibility), classes

There really isn't anything more to be said here. Semantics and context. Forums and discussion.

Cool. I think it was you that "complained" about my choice of words here, not the other way around, but still (non-sarcastically) cool.

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@Sobx.1758 said:

@"Virdo.1540" said:stealth needs to be unstackable in duration ,like superspeed.

together with that, reveal should make players immune to becoming invisible, not just undo invis after some seconds. Perma-Reveal,like from new taken keeps) still opens the way to perma-stealth.

already does this. I think you are confusing it with
.

D:

Since some things do both (Sentries) I get confused. Target painter [&trap] just says it marks people - I thought that was supposed to be an anti-stealth device?

If you don't understand basic game mechanics, go ahead and read the wiki before you try starting a discussion about them :(

It isn't actually basic game mechanics considering I don't recall half of these things being present in PvE or even Spvp (though I haven't cared for that game mode since like 2018. Stop being so quick to pounce.

Marked, Detected! and Revealed are three dumb steps to produce one mechanic (Anti-stealth) that simply sees little use outside of WvW.

It's a weird argument to make that it's not a basic mechanic if it's not in gamemode1, but it is in gamemode2. Seems basic enough to me to call it that.

But yeah, I think there are better ways to balance stealth "around itself".

It's not weird. It's just semantics between what each of us considers a "basic mechanic." It'd be more accurate to say universal mechanic I guess, but it only feels like scratching the bottom of the barrel if the mechanic is present in "game mode 1" but not game mode 2 (PvE) and game mode 3 (Spvp). Then of course the sub-systems of other two game modes. Regardless, WvW has the illustrious position of being the minority and not the normal e.g. not "Basic." I mean. I don't think anyone in this forum would want to be called basic! Omg. Absolutely rude.

We're in the subforum of wvw mode, so expecting basic knowledge about its basic mechanics should be expected. And they're not some kind of hidden (ayy) effects, so calling them basic seems fair enough.

Forums...are meant for discussion
. If people lack knowledge they can ask in particular sub-forums if it helps find the matching audience. I would only expect people keep their questions relevant to the category. For example, don't ask about Raid Bosses in the WvW forums. Why would we disallow basic questions to be asked here? Are we really going down this road? Is the basic knowledge of what forums should be used for lost here?

Did I say people can't ask a question here? But that's the person that kept vouching for "op stealth deletion from the game" for... a pretty long time now. In those circumstances not knowing basic facts surrounding the gamemode and the very mechanic "you" want removed from the game becomes pretty noteworthy. And as such,
if
he's actually interested in carrying on with any
discussion
, he should start reading up on the skills and mechanics instead of just screaming "remove!" when apparently he doesn't understand how they work.And yes, forums are meant for discussion, but to have a meaningful discussion it's highly advised (needed?) to actually know the basics of what someone's talking about before going off with some radical opinions. Is this not a reasonable expectation?

You use Basic Mechanics (as you say) per game mode.
Scouts, guild upgrades, siege equipment, etc. is basic to you in this sub-forum.

I used Basic Mechanics for the whole game.
Mechanics shared across game modes is basic to me: downstate, stealth (invisibility), classes

There really isn't anything more to be said here. Semantics and context. Forums and discussion.

Cool. But just remember that it was you that complained about my choice of words, not the other way around ;)

Lol. They're your forum rival? Explains the quips on the first page anyhow. /facepalm

He had knowledge of stealth, but not ANET's janky Marked implementation from what I understand. Given this string I assume we divide on if "Marked" is basic knowledge. So IMO, he can comment on stealth...even if I disagree with removing stealth/invisibility.

Just remember I was complaining about the pounce on your rival. The semantic dispute was a side effect.

D:

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@GDchiaScrub.3241 said:

@"Virdo.1540" said:stealth needs to be unstackable in duration ,like superspeed.

together with that, reveal should make players immune to becoming invisible, not just undo invis after some seconds. Perma-Reveal,like from new taken keeps) still opens the way to perma-stealth.

already does this. I think you are confusing it with
.

D:

Since some things do both (Sentries) I get confused. Target painter [&trap] just says it marks people - I thought that was supposed to be an anti-stealth device?

If you don't understand basic game mechanics, go ahead and read the wiki before you try starting a discussion about them :(

It isn't actually basic game mechanics considering I don't recall half of these things being present in PvE or even Spvp (though I haven't cared for that game mode since like 2018. Stop being so quick to pounce.

Marked, Detected! and Revealed are three dumb steps to produce one mechanic (Anti-stealth) that simply sees little use outside of WvW.

It's a weird argument to make that it's not a basic mechanic if it's not in gamemode1, but it is in gamemode2. Seems basic enough to me to call it that.

But yeah, I think there are better ways to balance stealth "around itself".

It's not weird. It's just semantics between what each of us considers a "basic mechanic." It'd be more accurate to say universal mechanic I guess, but it only feels like scratching the bottom of the barrel if the mechanic is present in "game mode 1" but not game mode 2 (PvE) and game mode 3 (Spvp). Then of course the sub-systems of other two game modes. Regardless, WvW has the illustrious position of being the minority and not the normal e.g. not "Basic." I mean. I don't think anyone in this forum would want to be called basic! Omg. Absolutely rude.

We're in the subforum of wvw mode, so expecting basic knowledge about its basic mechanics should be expected. And they're not some kind of hidden (ayy) effects, so calling them basic seems fair enough.

Forums...are meant for discussion
. If people lack knowledge they can ask in particular sub-forums if it helps find the matching audience. I would only expect people keep their questions relevant to the category. For example, don't ask about Raid Bosses in the WvW forums. Why would we disallow basic questions to be asked here? Are we really going down this road? Is the basic knowledge of what forums should be used for lost here?

Did I say people can't ask a question here? But that's the person that kept vouching for "op stealth deletion from the game" for... a pretty long time now. In those circumstances not knowing basic facts surrounding the gamemode and the very mechanic "you" want removed from the game becomes pretty noteworthy. And as such,
if
he's actually interested in carrying on with any
discussion
, he should start reading up on the skills and mechanics instead of just screaming "remove!" when apparently he doesn't understand how they work.And yes, forums are meant for discussion, but to have a meaningful discussion it's highly advised (needed?) to actually know the basics of what someone's talking about before going off with some radical opinions. Is this not a reasonable expectation?

You use Basic Mechanics (as you say) per game mode.
Scouts, guild upgrades, siege equipment, etc. is basic to you in this sub-forum.

I used Basic Mechanics for the whole game.
Mechanics shared across game modes is basic to me: downstate, stealth (invisibility), classes

There really isn't anything more to be said here. Semantics and context. Forums and discussion.

Cool. But just remember that it was you that complained about my choice of words, not the other way around ;)

Lol. They're your forum rival? Explains the quips on the first page anyhow. /facepalm

He had knowledge of stealth, but not ANET's janky Marked implementation from what I understand. Given this string I assume we divide on if "Marked" is basic knowledge. So IMO, he can comment on stealth...even if I disagree with removing stealth/invisibility.

Just remember I was complaining about the
pounce
on your rival. The semantic dispute was a side effect.

D:

"Forum rival"? Just because I saw him spamming the same nonsense he apparently doesn't even understand the basics of? Interesting conclusions.I've meant exactly what I wrote. That was not a "pounce" and I've already exaplained my point of view about this above, not sure why you keep trying to spin it into your unrelated theories.

But hey, you've remembered one of my posts (which I don't tbh), so -following your logic- I guess I'm your forum rival, which is also why you've so eagerly pounced at my choice of words. :(

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@Sobx.1758 said:

@"Virdo.1540" said:stealth needs to be unstackable in duration ,like superspeed.

together with that, reveal should make players immune to becoming invisible, not just undo invis after some seconds. Perma-Reveal,like from new taken keeps) still opens the way to perma-stealth.

already does this. I think you are confusing it with
.

D:

Since some things do both (Sentries) I get confused. Target painter [&trap] just says it marks people - I thought that was supposed to be an anti-stealth device?

If you don't understand basic game mechanics, go ahead and read the wiki before you try starting a discussion about them :(

It isn't actually basic game mechanics considering I don't recall half of these things being present in PvE or even Spvp (though I haven't cared for that game mode since like 2018. Stop being so quick to pounce.

Marked, Detected! and Revealed are three dumb steps to produce one mechanic (Anti-stealth) that simply sees little use outside of WvW.

It's a weird argument to make that it's not a basic mechanic if it's not in gamemode1, but it is in gamemode2. Seems basic enough to me to call it that.

But yeah, I think there are better ways to balance stealth "around itself".

It's not weird. It's just semantics between what each of us considers a "basic mechanic." It'd be more accurate to say universal mechanic I guess, but it only feels like scratching the bottom of the barrel if the mechanic is present in "game mode 1" but not game mode 2 (PvE) and game mode 3 (Spvp). Then of course the sub-systems of other two game modes. Regardless, WvW has the illustrious position of being the minority and not the normal e.g. not "Basic." I mean. I don't think anyone in this forum would want to be called basic! Omg. Absolutely rude.

We're in the subforum of wvw mode, so expecting basic knowledge about its basic mechanics should be expected. And they're not some kind of hidden (ayy) effects, so calling them basic seems fair enough.

Forums...are meant for discussion
. If people lack knowledge they can ask in particular sub-forums if it helps find the matching audience. I would only expect people keep their questions relevant to the category. For example, don't ask about Raid Bosses in the WvW forums. Why would we disallow basic questions to be asked here? Are we really going down this road? Is the basic knowledge of what forums should be used for lost here?

Did I say people can't ask a question here? But that's the person that kept vouching for "op stealth deletion from the game" for... a pretty long time now. In those circumstances not knowing basic facts surrounding the gamemode and the very mechanic "you" want removed from the game becomes pretty noteworthy. And as such,
if
he's actually interested in carrying on with any
discussion
, he should start reading up on the skills and mechanics instead of just screaming "remove!" when apparently he doesn't understand how they work.And yes, forums are meant for discussion, but to have a meaningful discussion it's highly advised (needed?) to actually know the basics of what someone's talking about before going off with some radical opinions. Is this not a reasonable expectation?

You use Basic Mechanics (as you say) per game mode.
Scouts, guild upgrades, siege equipment, etc. is basic to you in this sub-forum.

I used Basic Mechanics for the whole game.
Mechanics shared across game modes is basic to me: downstate, stealth (invisibility), classes

There really isn't anything more to be said here. Semantics and context. Forums and discussion.

Cool. But just remember that it was you that complained about my choice of words, not the other way around ;)

Lol. They're your forum rival? Explains the quips on the first page anyhow. /facepalm

He had knowledge of stealth, but not ANET's janky Marked implementation from what I understand. Given this string I assume we divide on if "Marked" is basic knowledge. So IMO, he can comment on stealth...even if I disagree with removing stealth/invisibility.

Just remember I was complaining about the
pounce
on your rival. The semantic dispute was a side effect.

D:

"Forum rival"? Just because I saw him spamming the same nonsense he apparently doesn't even understand the basics of? Interesting conclusions.I've meant exactly what I wrote. That was not a "pounce" and I've already exaplained my point of view about this above, not sure why you keep trying to spin it into your unrelated theories.

But hey, you've
(which I don't tbh), so -following your logic- I guess I'm your forum rival, which is also why you've so eagerly pounced at my choice of words. :(

Oh. You took the forum rival thing seriously? I do forget plain text can be hard on humor sometimes if I don't provide enough hints. /facepalm I was going to make a joke about Ash and Gary next, but we won't be able to get anywhere. We can add that to my "theories" and "conclusions" as such things make me feel like a scientist (Forumtology?). What are my theories or whatever called? I'll let you do the honors of naming them.

So maybe I have a lower bar for people to discuss stealth than you? That's where we are at for the TLDR. He can spam(err comment on) such threads with whatever bad ideas as he sees fit. Better to know the bad ideas than hide them. You may even be able to help by providing more information! Or links to wiki articles he should read? Something something something, sunlight and disinfectant quote here. That way the bad ideas will be less bad with guidance (probably unlikely given forum egos are on average 50% higher than the normal human).

And yeah. We both read and post on different threads too. Not really sure this is shocking, but we can be rivals if you wanted. It's not like there are many faces on the forums anyway. If we went back to downstate/stealth threads a year ago you might even see 90% of the same people. Maybe they can join us in forum rivalry?

TLDR: I have a low bar for people discussing stealth. I doubt it'll be removed even with intimate (non-sensual) knowledge.

D:

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