Jump to content
  • Sign Up

Kuunavang and the Voice


EdwinLi.1284

Recommended Posts

@ThatOddOne.4387 said:I do really like the theory that Cantha has already defeated the DSD. It's a nice twist. Plus avoids retreading the same old 'defeat an elder dragon' story steps.

If both Kuunavang and Albax have taken portions of the DSD's power, then it could quite well be a set-up for a Yin and Yang story.

ya it seems even WoodenPotatoes is siding with the possibility that the reason why we never seen the DSD is because it was already defeated in Cantha by the Canthan Empire.

Though if this is so then we have to ask how, when, and if they have their own Commander or not.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"Psientist.6437" said:The studio put a lot of effort into Glint's plan, I hope they don't just drop it or drop it with only a sentence or two. They are already in the process of letting her plan whither from neglect.

Aurene after killing Kralkatorrik:

Aurene: My grandfather's prophecy is fulfilled. My mother's legacy is complete.

I'm sure as far as most people are concerned, this line confirms the whole "Glint's Legacy" plot completed. I mean, not according to Sadizi, but according to Aurene...

Imo, the studio is fumbling the transition and only have an episode or two to do the transition justice.

Not sure what you mean, we're only halfway through Icebrood Saga. That's 4 episodes, with a few intermission releases too.

The logo shows the same dragon locked in a cycle or something similar to the ying-yang symbol. I don't see any connection to Jormag or Primordius.The bottom design is actually different from the top - the nose particularly, but where the "jaw fin" meets the neck is also different.

I agree, no similarity to Jormag or Primordus, rather they look like Saltspray Dragon "jaw fins", making me think Kuunavang and Albax (maybe the DSD if they decide to connect Kuunavang to the DSD after all).

Unless the studio has embraced right wing ethno-nationalism, Cantha is no longer a xenophobic country, at least not completely. Cantha and its people are portrayed favorably. Perhaps Canthans put away their racial prejudices to face a common threat just as Tyrians did.I imagine that they'll still be xenophobic, but not to the point of "we will kill any non-Canthan that tries to enter". I imagine it'd be a "you're not like, but you are tolerated because even if non-human, you are diplomats from a foreign nation and we do not want open war" (unless, of course, open war is what brings us to Cantha - though given the title, I'm doubtful).

Glint's plan was to replace the current Elder dragons. Their plan included Vlast who died. Aurene may have said her mother's legacy is complete but she is either talking out of her ass, saw herself as the only replacement needed, or means her mother's legacy and purpose has fallen to her. Distinction between 'Glint's plan' and 'The plan to replace the Elder dragons' is distinction without difference.

I am not talking about the transition from the Icebrood Saga to the End of Dragons but the transition from 'The plan to replace the Elder dragons' to the end of dragons. There is no apparent irony in the title "End of Dragons" and I doubt 'end' is the term for a group of dragons or refers to a location on a dragon's body. A long dragon would have two ends so it is possible. If we take the title of the expansion seriously, we will see a sea-change in 'the plan to replace the Elder dragons'. Since we are following the path of destiny to kill Jormag, that transition has to happen within the next 2 episodes. We need to see the Commander and other Tyrians talk about what they think will happen if Jormag dies. Please do not respond with some nonsense that they don't have to because Jormag hasn't explicitly said they want to hurt people.

The logo could show two different dragons or the same dragon in different mediums, water and air. The similarity to a ying-yang symbol can't be a coincidence and works with either interpretation but more easily with two different dragons.

The studio is describing Canthans in glowing terms. I don't see them describing Canthans in such a way and making them solidly ethno-nationalistic. If they do, the forums will become a cesspool.

edit: If we take the title at face value, then Aurene's power may end as well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"Hannelore.8153" said:Its a metaphor, it doesn't mean the dragons die, it means their time of power is over. That's what the trailer is all about.

Presumably, https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheMagicGoesAway

I agree its a metaphor, or a play on words, I also tend to think along the lines of

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HereThereBeDragons

Like, you sail past the area of the DSD and you come to the end of dragons.

There is a whole globe to explore, this is not the end of the road, merely the end of dragons, like you drive to the end of the corn field, the corn hasn't ceased to exist but you are away from where it is.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The purple mist could be an illusion spell cast by Lyssa before she left Tyria that partially hides Cantha and the dragons the DSD could corrupt.

If the structure of the All can be monitored from Tyria, then I don't see how the DSD could die without us knowing. I also don't see the studio abandoning what would be a really interesting fight. I am picturing zones that transition between underwater combat and land combat as they are flooded by the DSD. In terms of zone narrative design, the battle against the DSD could be the most interesting Elder Dragon battle.

Theoretically, there is no part of the planet beyond the border of the Elder dragons. Taken together, "End of Dragons" and "the cycle is reborn" imply the end to dragon power and their domination of the All.

Both voices speak favorably of mortals and more importantly, mortality. One sounds willing to remain hiding while the other sounds willing to risk entering the battle against the Elder dragons.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If speculations that the DSD has already been killed off in Cantha for a long time is true then there still remains another question next to the when, how, and why being the Orb for the DSD not disappearing when we looked into the Eternal Alchemy.

One of my other speculation, following if the death of DSD has already happened in Cantha maybe true, is that the title and rights of the DSD may have been transfered to maybe two dragons creating a DSD of Ying and DSD of Yang thus maybe why the DSD orb never went out and remained bright in the Eternal Alchemy. The old Deep Sea Elder Dragon maybe gone but in its place two new Dragons maintain the position of DSD's influence but both disagree with how they may want to handle the DSD position. However, since they are still only half the DSD powers neither have reach the level of Aurene yet.

The real Kralkatorik personality mentioned Aurene is the first of her kind and now that meaning has more to it being Aurene is the first of the Dragons in the new Cycle. With this one must ask who maybe the other New Dragons of the new Cycle? It is already implied Aurene will not be the only Dragon to maintain the magic in the new Cycle but she is the first of these New Dragons.

I suspect one of the Dragons in the new logo maybe the 2nd New Dragon of the New Cycle to be the Elder Dragon that embodies Ying and Yang after one of them dies in the story and transfers their power to the surviving Dragon to become a complete New Dragon. However, another hypothesis is that both of them may become New Dragons of the New Cycle thus creating a Twin Dragons type New Dragon with one acting as the Ying and the other acting as the Yang once both of them reach a understanding to help protect the world in the New Cycle.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@EdwinLi.1284 said:If speculations that the DSD has already been killed off in Cantha for a long time is true then there still remains another question next to the when, how, and why being the Orb for the DSD not disappearing when we looked into the Eternal Alchemy.

One of my other speculation, following if the death of DSD has already happened in Cantha maybe true, is that the title and rights of the DSD may have been transfered to maybe two dragons creating a DSD of Ying and DSD of Yang thus maybe why the DSD orb never went out and remained bright in the Eternal Alchemy. The old Deep Sea Elder Dragon maybe gone but in its place two new Dragons maintain the position of DSD's influence but both disagree with how they may want to handle the DSD position. However, since they are still only half the DSD powers neither have reach the level of Aurene yet.

The real Kralkatorik personality mentioned Aurene is the first of her kind and now that meaning has more to it being Aurene is the first of the Dragons in the new Cycle. With this one must ask who maybe the other New Dragons of the new Cycle? It is already implied Aurene will not be the only Dragon to maintain the magic in the new Cycle but she is the first of these New Dragons.

I suspect one of the Dragons in the new logo maybe the 2nd New Dragon of the New Cycle to be the Elder Dragon that embodies Ying and Yang after one of them dies in the story and transfers their power to the surviving Dragon to become a complete New Dragon. However, another hypothesis is that both of them may become New Dragons of the New Cycle thus creating a Twin Dragons type New Dragon with one acting as the Ying and the other acting as the Yang once both of them reach a understanding to help protect the world in the New Cycle.

How does this theory explain the title of the expansion? I may be putting too much significance into the title but it is hard not to.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"Psientist.6437" said:

How does this theory explain the title of the expansion? I may be putting too much significance into the title but it is hard not to.

The Title "End of Dragons" implies the End of the old Elder Dragon Cycle.

At the end of the trailer teaser the words "A Cycle is Reborn" implies a new Cycle is created. This New Cycle most likely speaks about the birth of a New Dragon Cycle.

The current Cycle we are in is the old Elder Dragon Cycle and with the death of all old Elder Dragons the old Cycle dies with them but the birth of New Elder Dragons such as Aurene and maybe other New Dragons creates a New Cycle different from the old Cycle.

It is still a Elder Dragon Cycle but one that has completely new to the world that will act as the new cycle to maintain the flow of Magic reborn to do so without mass genocide of all life on the planet.

thus combine these two together the full message of the Teaser maybe "The End of the Old Elder Dragon Cycle and Reborn as a New Elder Dragon Cycle"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Because it wasn't defeated before that sequence was shown to us?

I don't think anyone was suggesting that the Canthans could 'easily' defeat the DSD, more that they took a while to do so and likely suffered catastrophically in the process, but ultimately succeeded - "Testament to Mortal Resilience" - Maybe around the time Kralkatorrik was defeated. It doesn't necessarily have to have been around the same time as or before Zhaitan was defeated.

I also don't think the All is really fully understood yet and the image we were shown with the 'orbs' does not have to be taken as gospel.

And besides, if the DSD was immediately replaced by Kuunavang and/or Albax, there wouldn't have been disruption to the All, at least visible from Tyria with the means available to us.

Whether the DSD fight would be interesting or not is irrelevant to me. I'm far more interesting the story, and the fact remains another "Defeat the Elder Dragon" storyline would be rather bland.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@EdwinLi.1284 said:

@"Psientist.6437" said:

How does this theory explain the title of the expansion? I may be putting too much significance into the title but it is hard not to.

At the end of the trailer teaser the words "A Cycle is Reborn" implies a new Cycle is created. This New Cycle most likely speaks about the birth of a New Dragon Cycle.

The current Cycle we are in is the old Elder Dragon Cycle and with the death of all old Elder Dragons the old Cycle dies with them but the birth of New Elder Dragons such as Aurene and maybe other New Dragons creates a New Cycle different from the old Cycle.

Perhaps, but to me at least, the title implies more than just a minor change in All management. It is a powerful choice of words. Both voices speak of the value of mortality and endings. They sound like beings who want something genuinely different.

Perhaps the title refers to the Dragon Dynasty.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"ThatOddOne.4387" said:Because it wasn't defeated before that sequence was shown to us?

I don't think anyone was suggesting that the Canthans could 'easily' defeat the DSD, more that they took a while to do so and likely suffered catastrophically in the process, but ultimately succeeded - "Testament to Mortal Resilience" - Maybe around the time Kralkatorrik was defeated. It doesn't necessarily have to have been around the same time as or before Zhaitan was defeated.

I also don't think the All is really fully understood yet and the image we were shown with the 'orbs' does not have to be taken as gospel.

And besides, if the DSD was immediately replaced by Kuunavang and/or Albax, there wouldn't have been disruption to the All, at least visible from Tyria with the means available to us.

I am not saying it happened before Zhaitan but more that it has been a while since the DSD defeat which most likely maybe between Zhaitan's defeat to Kralkatorik.

The ingame lore is that it has been already 9 years since the Zhaitan Arc ended which gives a lot of space for when it could have happened.

If it happened after Zhaitan's defeat and before Mordremoth's defeat then it would explain why no one noticed because DSD death and transfer of rights and influence may not be noticed due to the world not being affected story wise yet. (This covers the year 1325 AE to 1328 AE)

Though my speculation say it should not be after Mordremoth's death and before Kralkatorik's death since by that point we should have seen a strange shift in magic unless that shift was not calculated due to the already crazy events the Commander and his/her allies were focused on. (1329 AE to 1332 AE)

After Kralkatorik's death to current events is the least in my opinion because we should have notice a sudden change to the magic unless Jormag was the only one that noticed it and that is the implied danger she speaks about. (1332 AE to current events which is now 1333 AE)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If the Canthan Empire had defeated Bubbles one would think all of the displaced deep ocean species we have encountered would have noticed the sudden lack of coordination and power that dragon minions tend to get after their dragon dies.

Given that the Karka only appeared on the surface after Zhaitan's defeat, and did so fleeing the Deep Sea Dragon's minions, it seems to suggest its still alive.

Not to mention, if it had died, people would have noticed the ley energy buildup/transference of powers to the other Elder Dragons.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:If the Canthan Empire had defeated Bubbles one would think all of the displaced deep ocean species we have encountered would have noticed the sudden lack of coordination and power that dragon minions tend to get after their dragon dies.

Given that the Karka only appeared on the surface after Zhaitan's defeat, and did so fleeing the Deep Sea Dragon's minions, it seems to suggest its still alive.

Not to mention, if it had died, people would have noticed the ley energy buildup/transference of powers to the other Elder Dragons.

As my speculation mentions, i suspect that the lack of Elder Dragon energy getting out of DSD possible death maybe due to Two Dragons being in the area to absorb half/half of the DSD energy and thus taking the DSD place as the current DSD of the current Cycle with both of them only having half of DSD powers each.

Most of the time the leaking of Elder Dragon Energy into other Elder Dragons was due to some of those energy being missed when the absorbing happens such as how Kralk's energy was not fully absorbed into Aurene and thus the parts missed were dragged into the other Elder Dragons thus giving current surviving Elder Dragons all of Kralk's powers. However, with two fully grown Dragons absorbing the energy it is possible no DSD energy maybe missed thus they may successfully fully contained the DSD energy into the possible new DSD of Ying and DSD of Yang.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If we've found a way to put elder dragon's to sleep, it's certainly possible Cantha did as well. As we've seen, dragon minions are still active even when their master is not fully active.

I think the title is more metaphor. 'End of Dragons' could just signify the end of their power in Tyria vs their literal end. The suggestion that it is the end of the Dragon Empire could work, as could marking the end of this old dragon cycle. It's clearly vague enough to have several meanings that we can't really parse at this moment.

I do hope the DSD hasn't been killed off screen though. It's been my most anticipated dragon, and missing out on the eldritch horror vibes it has seemed to exude from the little info we have, I will be sad to have that unceremoniously dumped. It will depend on the quality of the story I suppose, but it'll be a bummer.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

Unless the studio has embraced right wing ethno-nationalism, Cantha is no longer a xenophobic country, at least not completely. Cantha and its people are portrayed favorably. Perhaps Canthans put away their racial prejudices to face a common threat just as Tyrians did.I imagine that they'll still be xenophobic, but not to the point of "we will kill any non-Canthan that tries to enter". I imagine it'd be a "you're not like, but you are tolerated because even if non-human, you are diplomats from a foreign nation and we do not want open war" (unless, of course, open war is what brings us to Cantha - though given the title, I'm doubtful).

It's been over 150 years. Usoku's generation is long gone. I imagine the reactions to non-humans from Canthans today will be more like the cautious curiosity we saw in Elona during PoF. "Oh wow! Plant people! Little people! And big furry...ummm...people too, I guess!"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"Svennis.3852" said:I do hope the DSD hasn't been killed off screen though. It's been my most anticipated dragon, and missing out on the eldritch horror vibes it has seemed to exude from the little info we have, I will be sad to have that unceremoniously dumped. It will depend on the quality of the story I suppose, but it'll be a bummer.

I have a feeling that when we finally get the big reveal on the DSD, it will be the single most terrifying thing in GW2 since Scarlet's attack on Lion's Arch. Possibly ever.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Jimbru.6014 said:It's been over 150 years. Usoku's generation is long gone.That's not how humans work. Japan remained in a state of self isolation for 214 years(which is what the Canthan isolationism seemingly parallels), and would have continued to do so had America not used threats of force to make them open again. Once you enter an isolationist mindset, it can easily last centuries.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@ThatOddOne.4387 said:I do really like the theory that Cantha has already defeated the DSD. It's a nice twist. Plus avoids retreading the same old 'defeat an elder dragon' story steps.

If both Kuunavang and Albax have taken portions of the DSD's power, then it could quite well be a set-up for a Yin and Yang story.

I'm not too big a fan of this since the sea dragon has been built up so much as a mystery for all these years.Would suck if we finally get onto a story about it and it's already dead.. and we never even got to see it, that would be a big loss since the dragons are this game's main antagonists.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hard to imagine Aurene not noticing the death of an Elder Dragon. If the DSD is killed by Canthans, then ThatOddOne offers the best speculation; their death occurs in the future. Having the DSD be killed in the background and giving it away in a release announcement would certainly qualify as an approach to building and resolving suspense.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@Jimbru.6014 said:It's been over 150 years. Usoku's generation is long gone.That's not how humans work. Japan remained in a state of self isolation for 214 years(which is what the Canthan isolationism seemingly parallels), and would have continued to do so had America not used threats of force to make them open again. Once you enter an isolationist mindset, it can easily last centuries.

True, but the DSD could provide a similar demand for change. I would consider defeating pathological xenophobia and ethno-nationalism a more powerful display of Canthan courage than defeating the DSD. Besides, is the studio really willing to try and sell Asian themed xenophobia to an Asian market?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Or Aurene simply isn't omniscient, can't tell the DSD's power has changed hands, or does not deem it as something she needs to bother Tyria with to say. I still think distance is a massive factor in detecting anything. But yes, the DSD being killed 'shortly', relatively speaking, and not already dead is a solution.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Psientist.6437 said:Hard to imagine Aurene not noticing the death of an Elder Dragon. If the DSD is killed by Canthans, then ThatOddOne offers the best speculation; their death occurs in the future. Having the DSD be killed in the background and giving it away in a release announcement would certainly qualify as an approach to building and resolving suspense.

Perhaps Cantha learned to subjugate the DSD, maybe even recently.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's also possible the DSD is capable of cooperating with mortals similarly to Jormag.

EDIT: For all we know, Cantha has given the DSD free reign of their waters without resistance so long as they do not threaten Canthan ships/lives. The DSD keeps anyone from crossing into their seas, feeding into their isolationism and everyone is happy.

Just one idea of many.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Bast.7253 said:As far as the Leviathan bit goes, isn't there a leviathan skeleton in the Durmond Priory implying it to be a dead minion of the deep sea dragon? I'll have to go in game but that's what I was pulling from on that.Oh you're referring to the Tyrian leviathans before, not the sea wurm leviathans of GW1?

No, the giant fish are not implied to be deep sea dragon minions - there is an asura in Straits of Devastation that says the leviathans are an ancient species dating back to the previous dragonrise. But nothing links them to being dragon minions of any kind.

@EdwinLi.1284 said:

@"ThatOddOne.4387" said:I do really like the theory that Cantha has already defeated the DSD. It's a nice twist. Plus avoids retreading the same old 'defeat an elder dragon' story steps.

If both Kuunavang and Albax have taken portions of the DSD's power, then it could quite well be a set-up for a Yin and Yang story.

ya it seems even WoodenPotatoes is siding with the possibility that the reason why we never seen the DSD is because it was already defeated in Cantha by the Canthan Empire.

Though if this is so then we have to ask how, when, and if they have their own Commander or not.

Thing is, without massive retcons, the "when" has to be post Season 3... Which would then negate the whole "the reason why we never seen the DSD".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...