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Make A Raid Matchmaking System For Solo Players


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I do not think its a bad idea.

It's just a lot of work for Arenanet to actually put out successfully.

As others have mentioned the raids have a certain level of difficulty to them and because of that have pigeonholed classes.The only way to actually make a successful raid queue system would to essentially re-design all the raids to make them easier.

This would in turn upset the players who enjoy the challenge.

The ideal solution would to make two separate raid tiers, story mode and the current and adjust rewards accordingly, however, that is a great deal of work.

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So I will try to not be rude this time.In strikes, there already is some sort of matchmaking system. But it isnt working very well.1) it takes more time then using lfg2) generaly players are way worse and it takes longer time/much more fails

Reason is this. Players that actualy do the content and are experianced want to play with experianced players. They want to decide who is "worthy" of their time. Thats why they take fate into their own hands instead of trusting the system.Also if you join group with some matchmaking tool, everyone might not be on the same page.So that means that players that will actualy use this tool are those that cannot or dont want to participate in LFG groups. This will create bad publicity for raids since new players will all see the forst parts of raid comunity.

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The only way I can conceivably see Matchmaking work, would be for Arenanet to add individual queues for what you are going in as, and it'll check for your gear.

Like, you'll need a higher toughness (1300+) if you want to join the Tank Queue.You'll need a higher healing power (I dunno, 1300+) if you want to join the Healer Queue.And DPS can NOT have either of the above mentioned healing and tank stats.

And everything else goes from there on out.

Yep, that's the minimum. Things like traits could still tick up and ruin stat allocations (oh look your trait made you the tank, wow you should really learn not to run that...).

Toss in a mandatory 10 minute (5 minute if I really wanted to reduce the toxic levels building up) timer before anyone could vote to kick another squad member out, and you get pug raids. People will mercilessly question what everyone is running, there will be wipe after wipes due to the imbalanced DPS not filling all the roles, or having sub-optimal gear.

But...

It could bring in the vets who maybe like that masochistic angle, and find new talent in pubs, looking out for randoms who actually do well and bring them into the guilds they are running raids with.

Just my initial thoughts.

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@Sykper.6583 said:The only way I can conceivably see Matchmaking work, would be for Arenanet to add individual queues for what you are going in as, and it'll check for your gear.

Like, you'll need a higher toughness (1300+) if you want to join the Tank Queue.You'll need a higher healing power (I dunno, 1300+) if you want to join the Healer Queue.And DPS can NOT have either of the above mentioned healing and tank stats.What about non-heal support? What about special roles, like secondary tank for desmina, hand kiter for Deimos, etc? How would the matchmaker deal with situations where the group setup needs to change between bosses? How about potential alternate strats/group setups for bosses? A workable matchmaking system needs to be able to cover for all that, because if it's going to cause more problems than it solves, noone's going to use it.

@"Laila Lightness.8742" said:but if you truely want to fix it is to make it absolutly impossible to kick anyone unless that person is offlineIt would simply push any experienced player away from ever using that feature. Even if you mean that change to affect not just this "matchmaking" system but all LFGs as well, it would only kill pugs - some players would find statics, and those unable to do so would probably stop raiding at all. And for new/inexperienced players it would be even harder to find a group than it is now. Which is hardly a desired ending.

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@Laila Lightness.8742 said:but if you truely want to fix it is to make it absolutly impossible to kick anyone unless that person is offline

I can already see the trolling that would cause. I mean I remember back in release days doing Arah once and this leader went afk in a corner demanding payment by the other players in order to continue. Back then, kicking the leader would kick everyone outside the dungeon, so after finishing the first few bosses he started extorting the group to pay him gold otherwise he wouldn't participate anymore. Fun times.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Sykper.6583 said:The only way I can conceivably see Matchmaking work, would be for Arenanet to add individual queues for what you are going in as, and it'll check for your gear.

Like, you'll need a higher toughness (1300+) if you want to join the Tank Queue.You'll need a higher healing power (I dunno, 1300+) if you want to join the Healer Queue.And DPS can
NOT
have either of the above mentioned healing and tank stats.What about non-heal support? What about special roles, like secondary tank for desmina, hand kiter for Deimos, etc? How would the matchmaker deal with situations where the group setup needs to change between bosses? How about potential alternate strats/group setups for bosses? A workable matchmaking system needs to be able to cover for all that, because if it's going to cause more problems than it solves, noone's going to use it.

Yep these are all specific issues, I think whatever 'Beta' matchmaking this would be wouldn't cover Wing 5 without more code. I'm more or less looking at this from a first 3 wings perspective. But it helps to keep in mind the original intent of the encounters, groups for Gorseval now would find enough DPS to skip gliding but in these pug raids which I fully expect to be un-optimal the check might not be reached with the imbalanced 'DPS' folks not having all the boons needed.

So when you talk about Wing 4 for Hand Kiting, the hand-kite build was eventually developed and molded when in reality the kiter would be constantly swapped in the OG days. I imagine whoever queues up for Wing 4 might consider bringing along hand-kite gear during the run, or it was discussed by the time the pug group miraculously killed Samarog. But that's my point in all of this, having the general pug population realize just how bad it is in a matchmaking system, and realizing that with another system that makes it easier on them to queue into raiding not giving them what they want, they should realize the issue isn't with the raids but their own builds and what they can bring. Optimistic but very unlikely.

Matchmaking should only cover the very basics, let the folks inside work out the rest. After all now they are 10 folks in a squad matched, they got a tank, they got a healer or two, probably two. Figure it out from there, sink or swim!

If successful, maybe have a unique tech for Wing 5 to include a secondary tank slot or something. Start small, expand later.

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@Sykper.6583 said:But that's my point in all of this, having the general pug population realize just how bad it is in a matchmaking system, and realizing that with another system that makes it easier on them to queue into raiding not giving them what they want, they should realize the issue isn't with the raids but their own builds and what they can bring. Optimistic but very unlikely.Remember, the system would be for players that have trouble getting into a proper LFG now, not for experienced ones (those would not be using this system, as it would be vastly inferior to both current LFG and to having a static). So, a more likely result would be that the people that are new to raids would start with that system, take a look, decide that raids are a complete kittenshow, and not bother with them ever again.

Matchmaking should only cover the very basics, let the folks inside work out the rest. After all now they are 10 folks in a squad matched, they got a tank, they got a healer or two, probably two. Figure it out from there, sink or swim!Raid encounters are already hard enough for new players to figure out without adding one more layer of (unintuitive) difficulty for them to figure out.

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I'm just throwing out the most likely option for Arenanet if they were to pursue this path. I 100% agree a full-loaded Matchmaking that takes into account every variable is absolutely not going to happen, not with the resources they allocate to instanced content anyways.

Bluntly, there's zero chance that Raids or Strikes will see anything robust unless development actually changes their stance on PvE as a whole.

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@SeikeNz.3526 said:

@"skarpak.8594" said:with that attitude the guilds are probably also glad that you are not trying to join.

no one likes egoistic people which demand that content gets changed so it fits their agenda.

also will kill the "raid sellers" on the lobby.kill the show proof players

who is the toxic one? "others not playing like i want to play? heh get rid of them!"toxic casuals are destroying the game tbh.

egoistic people are the ones who don't want to other people have a try on raids because my guild only and no matchmaking for u

You don't need a guild to do raids. You don't even need the commander tag. Just create LFG called "everyone welcome" and you will get the same LFR experience. And if you're on NA servers then my condolences...

the problem is lfg don't work as a matchmaking

And what exactly is this magical queue going to offer that you already couldn't do yourself? If you want to search for 3 healers, simply write LF 3 healers. If you don't care about roles simply put yourself on LFG and say wing 1 and wait for people to join. This experience is exactly the same as if you matchmade.

because lfg take ages to find? imagine u doing pvp/wvw and try to manual find players for every team lmao

Actually, the LFG is a great tool. So far, I have completed all of the legendary armor achievements simply by using LFG. Fact is, all the tools necessary for a player with 0 experience to get in to raiding are already there. The LFG tool definitely works for this purpose, as well as Discord communities such as Raid Academy. It really is incredibly easy to get into raiding with just a minimal amount of effort right now. Also, the PvP matchmaker system is the root of about 90% of the issues players have in PvP. The matchmaker system forces players to be grouped up with bots, afk farmers, trolls, and generally toxic players. If PvP were to simply use the LFG tool instead, then those types of players would not be able to find their way into other players' groups anymore, and PvP would eventually become less toxic. In fact, we can already see how great this works simply by looking at the automated tournaments. Personally, the groups I wind up with during automated tournaments have been very pleasant and, win or lose, we have a great time.

And finally, I offer a solution to your apparent dilemma. Join my guild. I host training and full clear runs all the time for fractals and raids. Allow me to show you how to use the tools available, and perhaps I can change your mind on this subject as well as any others that see raids as this impossible barrier.

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Dang it's actually quite impressive to see how much you're stick to your idea and how much you're convinced that it'll work although I'm pretty sure you have little to no experience in raids.Even if your tool does happen to exist, you yourself will end up not even using it in the end because you'll encounter the sames issues as the actual LFG. Builds being too specific, requirements too high, ...Starting raids isnt even that difficult as solo player through LFG if you invest your time a little bit into training yourself and understanding how the gameplay actually works.

I saw you stating that meta shouldnt be a thing, I think you're missing the point of the meta there:-Meta is actually a thing that automatically exists in every game, it's just the "most effective tactic avaiable", it speaks by itself seriously. As long as there's a diversity of build and stats, there will be a meta.-Meta builds are there for a purpose, to simplify people life so that they dont actually have to go through the pain of theorycrafting the whole meta and compositions by themselves. This way the raids entrance will be much easier for people who seek to get in the raids. There are plenty enough ressources on the net for people who actually WANT to understand and play the game properlly.You want to get into raids? Just train a class, know why you play that class and then join training/low requirement groups or whisp commies to get into raids groups if you dont meet the requirements. Some will accept you, others won't but it's w/e as long as you enter in a group in the end.

Diving into the raids just blindly isnt the way to go. Thoses are a bit harder than the average content yeah but it's not THAT hard neither.

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@"FURYY.5986" said:Dang it's actually quite impressive to see how much you're stick to your idea and how much you're convinced that it'll work although I'm pretty sure you have little to no experience in raids.Even if your tool does happen to exist, you yourself will end up not even using it in the end because you'll encounter the sames issues as the actual LFG. Builds being too specific, requirements too high, ...Starting raids isnt even that difficult as solo player through LFG if you invest your time a little bit into training yourself and understanding how the gameplay actually works.

I saw you stating that meta shouldnt be a thing, I think you're missing the point of the meta there:-Meta is actually a thing that automatically exists in every game, it's just the "most effective tactic avaiable", it speaks by itself seriously. As long as there's a diversity of build and stats, there will be a meta.-Meta builds are there for a purpose, to simplify people life so that they dont actually have to go through the pain of theorycrafting the whole meta and compositions by themselves. This way the raids entrance will be much easier for people who seek to get in the raids. There are plenty enough ressources on the net for people who actually WANT to understand and play the game properlly.You want to get into raids? Just train a class, know why you play that class and then join training/low requirement groups or whisp commies to get into raids groups if you dont meet the requirements. Some will accept you, others won't but it's w/e as long as you enter in a group in the end.

Diving into the raids just blindly isnt the way to go. Thoses are a bit harder than the average content yeah but it's not THAT hard neither.

like u said meta "most effective tactic avaiable", most people just want to have fun and finish it, so they dont have to follow meta, most of time meta is not the real meta, they just like to follow of everyone say without thinking, so let meta people play their speed runs and let other people have fun, it's not like a matchmaking would break lfg or stop pleople from doing their pre made raids, it's just a addition to put new people on raids

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@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@"SeikeNz.3526" said:most of time meta is not the real meta

You're basing this on what exactly?

it's simple, when people start to following builds, they stop trying new builds that can be as effective or better, sure meta is an effective comproved build but does not mean that's the MOST effective.then you have someone being effective with an "off meta build" they will just kick him because of the toxicity that meta causes.

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@SeikeNz.3526 said:

@SeikeNz.3526 said:most of time meta is not the real meta

You're basing this on what exactly?

it's simple, when people start to following builds, they stop trying new builds that can be as effective or better, sure meta is an effective comproved build but does not mean that's the MOST effective.then you have someone being effective with an "off meta build" they will just kick him because of the toxicity that meta causes.

Again. What are you basing on what is most effective and what isn't?

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@SeikeNz.3526 said:

@SeikeNz.3526 said:most of time meta is not the real meta

You're basing this on what exactly?

it's simple, when people start to following builds, they stop trying new builds that can be as effective or better, sure meta is an effective comproved build but does not mean that's the MOST effective.then you have someone being effective with an "off meta build" they will just kick him because of the toxicity that meta causes.

But you apparently can't find groups for raids so how would you even know about the "toxicity" that goes on in raids? Just because you state something doesn't make it true. Do you have any evidence of this? I ask because my experience has been exactly the opposite. The raiding community has always been very welcoming and helpful, and it is very rare that I come across any sort of toxic player. Since raids have released, I have met two "raid trolls", and only a few players that would rage quit. It basically feels like the opposite of the PvP environment.

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@SeikeNz.3526 said:

@SeikeNz.3526 said:most of time meta is not the real meta

You're basing this on what exactly?

it's simple, when people start to following builds, they stop trying new builds that can be as effective or better, sure meta is an effective comproved build but does not mean that's the MOST effective.then you have someone being effective with an "off meta build" they will just kick him because of the toxicity that meta causes.

So can i use minion mancher and bearbow in raids even tho my dmg will be to low to make it to enrage

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@SeikeNz.3526 said:

@SeikeNz.3526 said:most of time meta is not the real meta

You're basing this on what exactly?

it's simple, when people start to following builds, they stop trying new builds that can be as effective or better, sure meta is an effective comproved build but does not mean that's the MOST effective.then you have someone being effective with an "off meta build" they will just kick him because of the toxicity that meta causes.

Here are the problems with your assumptions:A.) that is not how removal from squad happens. The most often reason for someone being removed from a group is due to lack of performance (bad boon uptime, failing lots of mechanics continuously, weak damage output, etc.). Nobody is going to bother to check what build you are running before a try, that's what KP/LI are for. People get removed AFTER they have shown to not perform (or before the try if they lack the ability to provide the group with confidence they will be able to perform their role, which LI/KP are used for, but again your build is irrelevant to)

B.) being effective with an off meta build requires extensive knowledge of the class, game mechanics and encounter. Something a lot of players lack. No, you will not just magically find an amazing build just because you threw together some traits and skills. The suggested meta builds and even off meta builds one can find online are most often the result of extensive testing and experience.

Which you would know IF you were actively raiding and tracking personal as well as group performance. Just as how you'd know that "best" or even "good" builds don't just fall out of the sky.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@gdubze.6015 said:Honestly the real issue are players like @"zombyturtle.5980" saying something is not possible unless you play this way, watch this then come back and tell me what you said actually has any relevance.

I bet you couldn't even explain how and why this was even possible. Not to mention it's not any more.

Yes, I might come off elitist. I've been at this content and on these forums for as long as raids have been out. The sutpidity of players is neverending and unfortunately also repeating.

This entire thread, every little thing said here, even your suggestions, has been had multiple times by now.

Most of us are just tired of investing time into know it all forum warriors at this point.

Once again you have offered no solutions and just throw insults and elitism into the thread, please stop quoting me if you have nothing constructive to put into the thread. And I can explain everything about that video and more if i so desired what have you put into this thread apart from insults and assumptions ?

I have given solutions, in threads where players want to know how to get into raiding. I have explained WHY this system does not work.

You want solutions to get into raiding:
  • join a training discord
  • join a raid training guild
  • try to have 1-2 easy raid builds ready to go

Done.

Stop telling people to join training guilds and discords. They are the reason raidings population is so small. They make raiding into a job and not fun. They've had a more negative impact on the raiding community than anything Anet has done.

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@Shiyo.3578 said:

@gdubze.6015 said:Honestly the real issue are players like @"zombyturtle.5980" saying something is not possible unless you play this way, watch this then come back and tell me what you said actually has any relevance.

I bet you couldn't even explain how and why this was even possible. Not to mention it's not any more.

Yes, I might come off elitist. I've been at this content and on these forums for as long as raids have been out. The sutpidity of players is neverending and unfortunately also repeating.

This entire thread, every little thing said here, even your suggestions, has been had multiple times by now.

Most of us are just tired of investing time into know it all forum warriors at this point.

Once again you have offered no solutions and just throw insults and elitism into the thread, please stop quoting me if you have nothing constructive to put into the thread. And I can explain everything about that video and more if i so desired what have you put into this thread apart from insults and assumptions ?

I have given solutions, in threads where players want to know how to get into raiding. I have explained WHY this system does not work.

You want solutions to get into raiding:
  • join a training discord
  • join a raid training guild
  • try to have 1-2 easy raid builds ready to go

Done.

Stop telling people to join training guilds and discords. They are the reason raidings population is so small. They make raiding into a job and not fun. They've had a more negative impact on the raiding community than anything Anet has done.

Sorry man, not even going to engage this troll attempt. You are to obvious.

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@Shiyo.3578 said:

@gdubze.6015 said:Honestly the real issue are players like @"zombyturtle.5980" saying something is not possible unless you play this way, watch this then come back and tell me what you said actually has any relevance.

I bet you couldn't even explain how and why this was even possible. Not to mention it's not any more.

Yes, I might come off elitist. I've been at this content and on these forums for as long as raids have been out. The sutpidity of players is neverending and unfortunately also repeating.

This entire thread, every little thing said here, even your suggestions, has been had multiple times by now.

Most of us are just tired of investing time into know it all forum warriors at this point.

Once again you have offered no solutions and just throw insults and elitism into the thread, please stop quoting me if you have nothing constructive to put into the thread. And I can explain everything about that video and more if i so desired what have you put into this thread apart from insults and assumptions ?

I have given solutions, in threads where players want to know how to get into raiding. I have explained WHY this system does not work.

You want solutions to get into raiding:
  • join a training discord
  • join a raid training guild
  • try to have 1-2 easy raid builds ready to go

Done.

Stop telling people to join training guilds and discords. They are the reason raidings population is so small. They make raiding into a job and not fun. They've had a more negative impact on the raiding community than anything Anet has done.

The issue is why should iy demand roles gw 2 was built on to be without roles. But its not so anymore. Ppl in training guilds are willing to teach but few are willing to learn.

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@Shiyo.3578 said:

@gdubze.6015 said:Honestly the real issue are players like @"zombyturtle.5980" saying something is not possible unless you play this way, watch this then come back and tell me what you said actually has any relevance.

I bet you couldn't even explain how and why this was even possible. Not to mention it's not any more.

Yes, I might come off elitist. I've been at this content and on these forums for as long as raids have been out. The sutpidity of players is neverending and unfortunately also repeating.

This entire thread, every little thing said here, even your suggestions, has been had multiple times by now.

Most of us are just tired of investing time into know it all forum warriors at this point.

Once again you have offered no solutions and just throw insults and elitism into the thread, please stop quoting me if you have nothing constructive to put into the thread. And I can explain everything about that video and more if i so desired what have you put into this thread apart from insults and assumptions ?

I have given solutions, in threads where players want to know how to get into raiding. I have explained WHY this system does not work.

You want solutions to get into raiding:
  • join a training discord
  • join a raid training guild
  • try to have 1-2 easy raid builds ready to go

Done.

Stop telling people to join training guilds and discords. They are the reason raidings population is so small. They make raiding into a job and not fun. They've had a more negative impact on the raiding community than anything Anet has done.

There's absolutely nothing that can save you if you are this far into desillusion, sadly. Imagine spitting on people who are taking their time to help others get into raiding. If you have seriously joined any training communities, and tried investing yourself seriously, I'm impressed you can even say that.

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@Shiyo.3578 said:Stop telling people to join training guilds and discords. They are the reason raidings population is so small. They make raiding into a job and not fun. They've had a more negative impact on the raiding community than anything Anet has done.Nope. The reason why a lot of people consider raids to be a job, and not fun is simply because it's a type of content that requires a kind of effort only some players enjoy. If training guilds and discords didn't exist, and if no raiders posted on forums, it would not make the situation any better - you'd still need to put as much effort into raiding as you do now, and you would still consider it a job. It's not due to players - it's the content's fault.

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I can see the OP does not have much experience in forming groups for raids.Raid parties in GW2 have to have certain roles filled. It is sad coming from a company who stated in the past “no trinity”. Instead we ended up with this disastrous mix of tank/heals/Alac/quickness/BS. That often has to be fine tuned with every boss encounter.I don’t think it is a problem with the raid community, or even the general player population. It is a failure of design of both the raid content that was designed in a way that any member failing a weird mechanic can result in a party wipe and group disbanding; and a failure of the game design itself that removed the Tried and True trinity, only to go back and give us a much worse system.

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