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Kuunavang and the Voice


EdwinLi.1284

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Looking at the video with fresh eyes....

The male voice sounds prepared to go and fight an immortal being in the defense of mortals; Kuunavang sounds as though she is unwilling. The bottom dragon in the logo looks more like an Elder dragon, the top dragon looks younger. The dragons are arranged in a cycle. Perhaps we learned the most important parts about the plot in season 2 and HoT and we are on the long coast to the end. I hope not, but that is simply my taste.

With the line "They built new lives on the very thing that sought to end theirs", Kuunavang is most likely referring to the Jade Sea and Echovald Forest after they were transformed by the Jade Wind. It is very weak evidence for the DSD's death.

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@"Psientist.6437" said:Looking at the video with fresh eyes....

The male voice sounds prepared to go and fight an immortal being in the defense of mortals; Kuunavang sounds as though she is unwilling. The bottom dragon in the logo looks more like an Elder dragon, the top dragon looks younger. The dragons are arranged in a cycle. Perhaps we learned the most important parts about the plot in season 2 and HoT and we are on the long coast to the end. I hope not, but that is simply my taste.

With the line "They built new lives on the very thing that sought to end theirs", Kuunavang is most likely referring to the Jade Sea and Echovald Forest after they were transformed by the Jade Wind. It is very weak evidence for the DSD's death.

That was my assumption as well. Also, the line "Mortals are little flames...brilliant, hot, and gone" is rather telling. I interpret that as "The mortals are very determined, but they still need my help." Whether the mortals wish it or not.

What male voice, by the way? The only two voices I hear are both distinctly female...Kunny, and whoever she's arguing with.

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@Tanith.5264 said:

@"Psientist.6437" said:Looking at the video with fresh eyes....

The male voice sounds prepared to go and fight an immortal being in the defense of mortals; Kuunavang sounds as though she is unwilling. The bottom dragon in the logo looks more like an Elder dragon, the top dragon looks younger. The dragons are arranged in a cycle. Perhaps we learned the most important parts about the plot in season 2 and HoT and we are on the long coast to the end. I hope not, but that is simply my taste.

With the line "They built new lives on the very thing that sought to end theirs", Kuunavang is most likely referring to the Jade Sea and Echovald Forest after they were transformed by the Jade Wind. It is very weak evidence for the DSD's death.

That was my assumption as well. Also, the line "Mortals are little flames...brilliant, hot, and gone" is rather telling. I interpret that as "The mortals are very determined, but they still need my help." Whether the mortals wish it or not.

What male voice, by the way? The only two voices I hear are both distinctly female...Kunny, and whoever she's arguing with.

The second voice sounds male to me but their gender isn't significant. Mysterious voice works as well.

I would go even further and say the Mysterious voice values mortality and possibly sees immortality as somewhat corrupt or lacking. I am still holding out hope that the cycle is reborn without needing immortal Elder beings. Let dragons be dragons without having to be responsible for the All, without having to isolate themselves from mortals.

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The voice sounds more masculine to me, but there's definitely an androgynous tinge to it (if nothing else evident by the fact that myriad peoples are attributing different genders to it). I could see them going in any direction for the character behind it - male, female, or non-binary all feel plausible.

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More significant than the gender to me is the argument that the other voice is making ("They need me"). Sounds identical to the things we've heard Jormag say.

Earlier I watched WP's video speculating on all this, and between him, the convos on this forum, and my guildmates' theorycrafting I confess to being totally bumfuzzled now.

Which is the dragons is in charge of bumfuzzlement? Or is that still Lyssa's turf? :)

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One thing I feel about the trailer is that neither voice seems hostile, or to have negative intent, which is why I don't think the mysterious voice is another dragon. Even Jormag's speech has always had obvious hostile undertones and vocal shifts.

If the voice turns out to be Lyssa, then the line "Those who face eternity easily forget what a lifetime means. What an ending means" could refer to the other human gods, and their dispassionate response to the Elder Dragons. Lyssa was stated all the way back in vanilla to be the one closest to humanity, staying with them to help them forget their troubled past, and the other gods having to forcibly command her to go to Arah once it was complete.

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@"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:One thing I feel about the trailer is that neither voice seems hostile, or to have negative intent, which is why I don't think the mysterious voice is another dragon. Even Jormag's speech has always had obvious hostile undertones and vocal shifts.

If the voice turns out to be Lyssa, then the line "Those who face eternity easily forget what a lifetime means. What an ending means" could refer to the other human gods, and their dispassionate response to the Elder Dragons. Lyssa was stated all the way back in vanilla to be the one closest to humanity, staying with them to help them forget their troubled past, and the other gods having to forcibly command her to go to Arah once it was complete.

Yeah, if either of these were antagonists, we would know it. GW2 doesn't do vague, and this video is full of color, light, positive vibes. It is a pretty easy line to draw that these two are benevolent entities, or at the very least that they have respect and appreciation for short-lived mortals. In GW1, Kuunavang was demonstrably friendly to mortals and aided the heroes of Factions in their quest to stop Shiro (going so far as to give them magical boons). So based off her history and the tone of this teaser, it wouldn't make any sense for her or the other voice to be bad guys or dubiously aligned.

On the official EoDs page on the GW2 site, the video specifically refers to these two as "ancient voices" reflecting on the world. If it's not another dragon, there's a limited pool of sapient beings around that really have the capacity to be ancient, which typically refers to things from the very distant past (ancient Greece, ancient Egypt) when it's not exaggerating a person's age. We know there are a couple other saltspray dragons in canon, and there could've been more we didn't meet in GW1. My gut tells me it is another dragon in this video, but who knows? I can't wait for more information.

EDIT: Potentially ancient beings off the top of my head - dragons, ghosts, exalted, forgotten, gods, liches (if another besides Joko exists), and some mortals can obtain longevity (Livia, a necromancer). There's also beings like Razah who are born from the mist, and likely don't experience time similarly to mortals. So I suppose there's a great deal to draw upon when we're discussing possibly 'ancient' beings, though a dragon seems most straightforward.

EDIT2: I would love it if this second voice could be Brother Mhenlo. He was native to Cantha, and we've yet to discover what happened to him post-GW1. He's been speculated before as a prime replacement for Balthazar (who was stripped of his godhood well before PoF). 250~ years ago isn't really 'ancient' though, so I'm not sure a newer god would make as much sense to describe that way (though I suppose he could have become something else besides a god, like a ghost).

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I watched WP's video. He talks about Canthans rebuilding their lives on top of the Jade Sea without making the obvious connection to Kuunavang's line "they built new lives on the very thing that sought to end theirs". As Konig mentions earlier, the pipes WP describes as dragons are identical to pipes we see in GW.

I think we can believe the narrative lead when they say the Mysterious Voice belongs to a new character. It isn't Lyssa. I like the theory that it is Kralkatorik's mother. If we approach the overall story as Aurene's hero journey with the Commander's hero journey nested within, the Mother of Dragons is the wise mentor who sets her on the right path. If so, Aurene may be do for a big fuck up. Perhaps she convinces everyone that a replacement for Jormag is unnecessary because she is the Prismatic Elder Dragon of Light and her grandfather said she is one of a kind.

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@"Psientist.6437" said:I watched WP's video. He talks about Canthans rebuilding their lives on top of the Jade Sea without making the obvious connection to Kuunavang's line "they built new lives on the very thing that sought to end theirs". As Konig mentions earlier, the pipes WP describes as dragons are identical to pipes we see in GW.

I think we can believe the narrative lead when they say the Mysterious Voice belongs to a new character. It isn't Lyssa. I like the theory that it is Kralkatorik's mother. If we approach the overall story as Aurene's hero journey with the Commander's hero journey nested within, the Mother of Dragons is the wise mentor who sets her on the right path. If so, Aurene may be do for a big kitten up. Perhaps she convinces everyone that a replacement for Jormag is unnecessary because she is the Prismatic Elder Dragon of Light and her grandfather said she is one of a kind.

Just like the all shown in The Machine, the centre sphere that represents Tyria, could also represent the mother dragon too

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@Tyson.5160 said:

@"Psientist.6437" said:I watched WP's video. He talks about Canthans rebuilding their lives on top of the Jade Sea without making the obvious connection to Kuunavang's line "they built new lives on the very thing that sought to end theirs". As Konig mentions earlier, the pipes WP describes as dragons are identical to pipes we see in GW.

I think we can believe the narrative lead when they say the Mysterious Voice belongs to a new character. It isn't Lyssa. I like the theory that it is Kralkatorik's mother. If we approach the overall story as Aurene's hero journey with the Commander's hero journey nested within, the Mother of Dragons is the wise mentor who sets her on the right path. If so, Aurene may be do for a big kitten up. Perhaps she convinces everyone that a replacement for Jormag is unnecessary because she is the Prismatic Elder Dragon of Light and her grandfather said she is one of a kind.

Just like the all shown in The Machine, the centre sphere that represents Tyria, could also represent the mother dragon too

Or (please, please, please Arenanet) it represents all that remains of the natural form of the All before it was corrupted by the Elder Dragons into the six sphere abomination. Primordius is curled around it, jealously gate keeping the flow magic like "too big to fail banks" gate keep the flow of money. If we can get to it, we can transform the All back into its distributed ledger configuration. If the Mother of Dragons and her Dodd Frank configuration must fall, then long live the Mother of Dragons.

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@"Psientist.6437" said:I think we can believe the narrative lead when they say the Mysterious Voice belongs to a new character. It isn't Lyssa.Anet has used the term "new character" to refer to characters we had already heard about, but had never seen. And we have never seen Lyssa. By your argument it couldn't be Kralk's mother either because she isn't a new character, as she was mentioned back in LWS4.

Not saying its either, but the phrase "new character" doesn't disqualify either of them.

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@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@"Psientist.6437" said:I think we can believe the narrative lead when they say the Mysterious Voice belongs to a new character. It isn't Lyssa.Anet has used the term "new character" to refer to characters we had already heard about, but had never seen. And we have never seen Lyssa. By your argument it couldn't be Kralk's mother either because she isn't a new character, as she was mentioned back in LWS4.

Not saying its either, but the phrase "new character" doesn't disqualify either of them.

Damn they're sneeky. I swear, writers act like it is their job to make things up.

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@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@"Psientist.6437" said:I think we can believe the narrative lead when they say the Mysterious Voice belongs to a new character. It isn't Lyssa.Anet has used the term "new character" to refer to characters we had already heard about, but had never seen. And we have never seen Lyssa. By your argument it couldn't be Kralk's mother either because she isn't a new character, as she was mentioned back in LWS4.

Not saying its either, but the phrase "new character" doesn't disqualify either of them.

I think the main reason why it seems HIGHLY unlikely to be Lyssa is that she doesn't really have anything to do with Kunavang. Why would she be talking about the cycle of the elder dragons or advocating for it to Kunavang when she may very well have given Balthazar her mirror in his pursuit to kill Kralk?

Lyssa just doesn't make any sense. I think people are reading too much into the purple mist. I get that she's been hinted at for quite awhile now, but I feel like they're setting that up for after this expansion. With the revised Utopia lore and this potentially revising the cycle, it may make room for the gods to reenter the picture as a whole. Lyssa potentially being the introductory character.

As far as the "End of Dragons, The Cycle Reborn" bit, it may not even be eluding to the elder dragons or dragons at all. It may be hinting at other things being able to take the place that the Elder Dragons are currently taking. I.e., The Pale Tree, the spirits of the wild, Aurene and perhaps some other dragons. Maybe even something entirely new that we discover in Cantha, especially given all the weirdness that was going on in Echovald with the Wardens and whatever magic they were using.

Who knows, but Lyssa doesn't really make sense, especially in terms of this trailer.

The mother thing is a lot more plausible. Saying she isn't "new" because the idea of her existence was mentioned in one line of dialogue feels like an extreme grasping of straws. But no, we haven't seen either one. Unless the above poster was going with the theory that Jenna = Lyssa, (or one part of Lyssa) which could fit I suppose but I'm sure there are a dozen reasons why that doesn't fit and this post will be picked apart sentence by sentence explaining why at some point.

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@Bast.7253 said:I think the main reason why it seems HIGHLY unlikely to be Lyssa is that she doesn't really have anything to do with Kunavang. Why would she be talking about the cycle of the elder dragons or advocating for it to Kunavang when she may very well have given Balthazar her mirror in his pursuit to kill Kralk?Kuunavang is an incredibly ancient dragon-entity whose history stretches back into the unknown past. She is essentially the Canthan version of Glint. And much like how Glint talked to the human gods, I find it almost certain the human gods talked to Kuunavang as well. Asking what does Lyssa, or any of the gods for that matter, have to do with Kuunavang is like asking what do they have to do with Glint. They would have obviously known each other. Especially when we consider that, outside of some early transfers they brought to Orr, the human gods brought most of humanity to Cantha first. They probably had some sort of deal going on so she wouldn't attack humanity.

If Kuunavang is in any way connected to the Elder Dragons, either being related to Bubbles like Glint was to Kralk, or being a viable Elder Dragon replacement entity, Lyssa wold obviously go to her for assistance for much the same reason Balthazar went after Vlast and Aurene. If you are going to combat an Elder Dragon, having something related to said Dragon is helpful. Not to mention Kuunavang is just really powerful on her own.

Also, the voice doesn't advocate for the cycle of Elder Dragons in the trailer.

Lyssa just doesn't make any sense. I think people are reading too much into the purple mist. I get that she's been hinted at for quite awhile now, but I feel like they're setting that up for after this expansion. With the revised Utopia lore and this potentially revising the cycle, it may make room for the gods to reenter the picture as a whole. Lyssa potentially being the introductory character.I doubt the gods as a whole are going to renter the picture. Balthazar is dead, and we have direct confirmation that Kormir, Grenth, and Melandru, have left, and have abandoned their followers and realms, with zero suggestion there is anything else at play for them. That just leaves Lyssa and Dwayna, and we know Lyssa is up to something.

As it stands, the Icebrood Saga is set to wrap up all the big Norn and Charr story beats, and with the Cantha expansion and LW content, that will cover the last major human kingdom on Tyria. The only thing left after Cantha is to deal with Primordus, which will probably deal with the Asura story beats, with some dwarven and skritt lore thrown in.

All the other major and minor plot points have really been done at this point.

  • The human/centaur was is over, with a decisive win for humanity.
  • The White Mantle/bandit/sepratist storylines are wrapped up, with the Mantle being crushed, and Lazarus dead.
  • The Flame Legion plot is over, now that Efhram has brought the Flame Legion back into the greater Charr society.
  • The Charr civil war/Renegade plot is done now that Bangar has been defeated. all thats left is to do something about how the Charr leadership will go moving forward
  • Icebrood Saga is dealing with all the Asgeir/missing spirits/Svanir/tooth prophecy stuff for the Norn
  • The Sylvari had their big story with Heart of Thorns
  • Path of Fire and its LW content dealt with Elona, Joko, the Sunspears, and all that

If they are going to do something with Lyssa its either the expansion, or the connected Canthan LW season. There just not anywhere else for it to fit in, since there's really not much left to do in the first place besides Cantha and the Primrodus/Asura stuff.

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@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@"Bast.7253" said:I think the main reason why it seems HIGHLY unlikely to be Lyssa is that she doesn't really have anything to do with Kunavang. Why would she be talking about the cycle of the elder dragons or advocating for it to Kunavang when she may very well have given Balthazar her mirror in his pursuit to kill Kralk?Kuunavang is an incredibly ancient dragon-entity whose history stretches back into the unknown past. She is essentially the Canthan version of Glint. And much like how Glint talked to the human gods, I find it almost certain the human gods talked to Kuunavang as well. Asking what does Lyssa, or any of the gods for that matter, have to do with Kuunavang is like asking what do they have to do with Glint. They would have obviously known each other. Especially when we consider that, outside of some early transfers they brought to Orr, the human gods brought most of humanity to Cantha first. They probably had some sort of deal going on so she wouldn't attack humanity.

If Kuunavang is in any way connected to the Elder Dragons, either being related to Bubbles like Glint was to Kralk, or being a viable Elder Dragon replacement entity, Lyssa wold obviously go to her for assistance for much the same reason Balthazar went after Vlast and Aurene. If you are going to combat an Elder Dragon, having something related to said Dragon is helpful. Not to mention Kuunavang is just really powerful on her own.

Also, the voice doesn't advocate for the cycle of Elder Dragons in the trailer.

Lyssa just doesn't make any sense. I think people are reading too much into the purple mist. I get that she's been hinted at for quite awhile now, but I feel like they're setting that up for after this expansion. With the revised Utopia lore and this potentially revising the cycle, it may make room for the gods to reenter the picture as a whole. Lyssa potentially being the introductory character.I doubt the gods as a whole are going to renter the picture. Balthazar is dead, and we have direct confirmation that Kormir, Grenth, and Melandru, have left, and have abandoned their followers and realms, with zero suggestion there is anything else at play for them. That just leaves Lyssa and Dwayna, and we know Lyssa is up to something.

As it stands, the Icebrood Saga is set to wrap up all the big Norn and Charr story beats, and with the Cantha expansion and LW content, that will cover the last major human kingdom on Tyria. The only thing left after Cantha is to deal with Primordus, which will probably deal with the Asura story beats, with some dwarven and skritt lore thrown in.

All the other major and minor plot points have really been done at this point.
  • The human/centaur was is over, with a decisive win for humanity.
  • The White Mantle/bandit/sepratist storylines are wrapped up, with the Mantle being crushed, and Lazarus dead.
  • The Flame Legion plot is over, now that Efhram has brought the Flame Legion back into the greater Charr society.
  • The Charr civil war/Renegade plot is done now that Bangar has been defeated. all thats left is to do something about how the Charr leadership will go moving forward
  • Icebrood Saga is dealing with all the Asgeir/missing spirits/Svanir/tooth prophecy stuff for the Norn
  • The Sylvari had their big story with Heart of Thorns
  • Path of Fire and its LW content dealt with Elona, Joko, the Sunspears, and all that

If they are going to do something with Lyssa its either the expansion, or the connected Canthan LW season. There just not anywhere else for it to fit in, since there's really not much left to do in the first place besides Cantha and the Primrodus/Asura stuff.

You're right, the voice doesn't specifically mention the cycle of the elder dragons. Kunavang is insisting that mortal's lives don't have to be brilliant, hot, and then gone. The other voice implies that they do. That that mortality is necessary to make life meaningful.

They could:

  1. Be opposing Kunavang who is actually the "enemy" here in the sense that they want to brand humanity in an effort to make them immortal.
  2. Be implying the necessity of the elder dragons and their destructive role, because it keeps them seeing the value of life.
  3. Something else entirely, and it's a different kind of immortal being. But of all the "immortal" beings we have in Cantha, Lyssa seems the least likely.

Going from Path of Fire, where our main focus is on Balthazar, straight to Lyssa, seems equally unlikely.Also, the name of the expansion is End of Dragons and talking about the rebirth of the cycle, so it's logical to assume that what they're actually talking about in the trailer is the cycle of the elder dragons.

And there's plenty to do with Lyssa outside of the expansion. I agree that it could come in the form of the living story afterwards, leading up to another expansion (if there is another expansion). They revised a bunch of Utopian lore in the art book and they've been pretty heavily dealing with the mists for the past two living story seasons. Plenty of opportunity for the gods to show up and for them to tie in Lyssa later on.

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@Bast.7253 said:

@Bast.7253 said:I think the main reason why it seems HIGHLY unlikely to be Lyssa is that she doesn't really have anything to do with Kunavang. Why would she be talking about the cycle of the elder dragons or advocating for it to Kunavang when she may very well have given Balthazar her mirror in his pursuit to kill Kralk?Kuunavang is an incredibly ancient dragon-entity whose history stretches back into the unknown past. She is essentially the Canthan version of Glint. And much like how Glint talked to the human gods, I find it almost certain the human gods talked to Kuunavang as well. Asking what does Lyssa, or any of the gods for that matter, have to do with Kuunavang is like asking what do they have to do with Glint. They would have obviously known each other. Especially when we consider that, outside of some early transfers they brought to Orr, the human gods brought most of humanity to Cantha first. They probably had some sort of deal going on so she wouldn't attack humanity.

If Kuunavang is in any way connected to the Elder Dragons, either being related to Bubbles like Glint was to Kralk, or being a viable Elder Dragon replacement entity, Lyssa wold obviously go to her for assistance for much the same reason Balthazar went after Vlast and Aurene. If you are going to combat an Elder Dragon, having something related to said Dragon is helpful. Not to mention Kuunavang is just really powerful on her own.

Also, the voice doesn't advocate for the cycle of Elder Dragons in the trailer.

Lyssa just doesn't make any sense. I think people are reading too much into the purple mist. I get that she's been hinted at for quite awhile now, but I feel like they're setting that up for after this expansion. With the revised Utopia lore and this potentially revising the cycle, it may make room for the gods to reenter the picture as a whole. Lyssa potentially being the introductory character.I doubt the gods as a whole are going to renter the picture. Balthazar is dead, and we have direct confirmation that Kormir, Grenth, and Melandru, have left, and have abandoned their followers and realms, with zero suggestion there is anything else at play for them. That just leaves Lyssa and Dwayna, and we know Lyssa is up to something.

As it stands, the Icebrood Saga is set to wrap up all the big Norn and Charr story beats, and with the Cantha expansion and LW content, that will cover the last major human kingdom on Tyria. The only thing left after Cantha is to deal with Primordus, which will probably deal with the Asura story beats, with some dwarven and skritt lore thrown in.

All the other major and minor plot points have really been done at this point.
  • The human/centaur was is over, with a decisive win for humanity.
  • The White Mantle/bandit/sepratist storylines are wrapped up, with the Mantle being crushed, and Lazarus dead.
  • The Flame Legion plot is over, now that Efhram has brought the Flame Legion back into the greater Charr society.
  • The Charr civil war/Renegade plot is done now that Bangar has been defeated. all thats left is to do something about how the Charr leadership will go moving forward
  • Icebrood Saga is dealing with all the Asgeir/missing spirits/Svanir/tooth prophecy stuff for the Norn
  • The Sylvari had their big story with Heart of Thorns
  • Path of Fire and its LW content dealt with Elona, Joko, the Sunspears, and all that

If they are going to do something with Lyssa its either the expansion, or the connected Canthan LW season. There just not anywhere else for it to fit in, since there's really not much left to do in the first place besides Cantha and the Primrodus/Asura stuff.

You're right, the voice doesn't specifically mention the cycle of the elder dragons. Kunavang is insisting that mortal's lives don't have to be brilliant, hot, and then gone. The other voice implies that they do. That that mortality is necessary to make life meaningful.

They could:
  1. Be opposing Kunavang who is actually the "enemy" here in the sense that they want to brand humanity in an effort to make them immortal.
  2. Be implying the necessity of the elder dragons and their destructive role, because it keeps them seeing the value of life.
  3. Something else entirely, and it's a different kind of immortal being. But of all the "immortal" beings we have in Cantha, Lyssa seems the least likely.

Going from Path of Fire, where our main focus is on Balthazar, straight to Lyssa, seems equally unlikely.Also, the name of the expansion is End of Dragons and talking about the rebirth of the cycle, so it's logical to assume that what they're actually talking about in the trailer is the cycle of the elder dragons.

And there's plenty to do with Lyssa outside of the expansion. I agree that it could come in the form of the living story afterwards, leading up to another expansion (if there is another expansion). They revised a bunch of Utopian lore in the art book and they've been pretty heavily dealing with the mists for the past two living story seasons. Plenty of opportunity for the gods to show up and for them to tie in Lyssa later on.

Could the voice be an Envoy? Mortality is kind of their thing, without it they‘d be out of a job.My 2nd guess would have been a new Oracle of the Mists talking to Kuunavang.

The teaser is full of purple mist. I thought that could be a connection to the spirit realm we see in Nahpui Quarters during the Weh No Su mission.

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@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:I doubt the gods as a whole are going to renter the picture. Balthazar is dead, and we have direct confirmation that Kormir, Grenth, and Melandru, have left, and have abandoned their followers and realms, with zero suggestion there is anything else at play for them. That just leaves Lyssa and Dwayna, and we know Lyssa is up to something.

Whilst I also don't think the Gods are going to be involved in this expansion, this is still not accurate. ArenaNet have said we still haven't seen the last of the Gods, and there absolutely is a suggestion as to what they are doing - Looking for a new world.

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@Bast.7253 said:

@Bast.7253 said:I think the main reason why it seems HIGHLY unlikely to be Lyssa is that she doesn't really have anything to do with Kunavang. Why would she be talking about the cycle of the elder dragons or advocating for it to Kunavang when she may very well have given Balthazar her mirror in his pursuit to kill Kralk?Kuunavang is an incredibly ancient dragon-entity whose history stretches back into the unknown past. She is essentially the Canthan version of Glint. And much like how Glint talked to the human gods, I find it almost certain the human gods talked to Kuunavang as well. Asking what does Lyssa, or any of the gods for that matter, have to do with Kuunavang is like asking what do they have to do with Glint. They would have obviously known each other. Especially when we consider that, outside of some early transfers they brought to Orr, the human gods brought most of humanity to Cantha first. They probably had some sort of deal going on so she wouldn't attack humanity.

If Kuunavang is in any way connected to the Elder Dragons, either being related to Bubbles like Glint was to Kralk, or being a viable Elder Dragon replacement entity, Lyssa wold obviously go to her for assistance for much the same reason Balthazar went after Vlast and Aurene. If you are going to combat an Elder Dragon, having something related to said Dragon is helpful. Not to mention Kuunavang is just really powerful on her own.

Also, the voice doesn't advocate for the cycle of Elder Dragons in the trailer.

Lyssa just doesn't make any sense. I think people are reading too much into the purple mist. I get that she's been hinted at for quite awhile now, but I feel like they're setting that up for after this expansion. With the revised Utopia lore and this potentially revising the cycle, it may make room for the gods to reenter the picture as a whole. Lyssa potentially being the introductory character.I doubt the gods as a whole are going to renter the picture. Balthazar is dead, and we have direct confirmation that Kormir, Grenth, and Melandru, have left, and have abandoned their followers and realms, with zero suggestion there is anything else at play for them. That just leaves Lyssa and Dwayna, and we know Lyssa is up to something.

As it stands, the Icebrood Saga is set to wrap up all the big Norn and Charr story beats, and with the Cantha expansion and LW content, that will cover the last major human kingdom on Tyria. The only thing left after Cantha is to deal with Primordus, which will probably deal with the Asura story beats, with some dwarven and skritt lore thrown in.

All the other major and minor plot points have really been done at this point.
  • The human/centaur was is over, with a decisive win for humanity.
  • The White Mantle/bandit/sepratist storylines are wrapped up, with the Mantle being crushed, and Lazarus dead.
  • The Flame Legion plot is over, now that Efhram has brought the Flame Legion back into the greater Charr society.
  • The Charr civil war/Renegade plot is done now that Bangar has been defeated. all thats left is to do something about how the Charr leadership will go moving forward
  • Icebrood Saga is dealing with all the Asgeir/missing spirits/Svanir/tooth prophecy stuff for the Norn
  • The Sylvari had their big story with Heart of Thorns
  • Path of Fire and its LW content dealt with Elona, Joko, the Sunspears, and all that

If they are going to do something with Lyssa its either the expansion, or the connected Canthan LW season. There just not anywhere else for it to fit in, since there's really not much left to do in the first place besides Cantha and the Primrodus/Asura stuff.

You're right, the voice doesn't specifically mention the cycle of the elder dragons. Kunavang is insisting that mortal's lives don't have to be brilliant, hot, and then gone. The other voice implies that they do. That that mortality is necessary to make life meaningful.

They could:
  1. Be opposing Kunavang who is actually the "enemy" here in the sense that they want to brand humanity in an effort to make them immortal.
  2. Be implying the necessity of the elder dragons and their destructive role, because it keeps them seeing the value of life.
  3. Something else entirely, and it's a different kind of immortal being. But of all the "immortal" beings we have in Cantha, Lyssa seems the least likely.

Going from Path of Fire, where our main focus is on Balthazar, straight to Lyssa, seems equally unlikely.Also, the name of the expansion is End of Dragons and talking about the rebirth of the cycle, so it's logical to assume that what they're actually talking about in the trailer is the cycle of the elder dragons.

And there's plenty to do with Lyssa outside of the expansion. I agree that it could come in the form of the living story afterwards, leading up to another expansion (if there is another expansion). They revised a bunch of Utopian lore in the art book and they've been pretty heavily dealing with the mists for the past two living story seasons. Plenty of opportunity for the gods to show up and for them to tie in Lyssa later on.

In the spirit of mildly competitive speculation....

I think you are misinterpreting Kuunavang, she is defending mortality. The line about brilliant, hot and gone is a standard way to describe mortals favorably in fantasy. For instance, the dialogue of the movie Clash of the Titans is mostly versions of this line. Before that line, she is clearly speaking favorably of mortals. Her line about not needing to be like this follows a gap in the conversation. We can fill in the gap using the Mysterious voice's line about having to go and help because they need me. In the gap they were likely discussing ways to defend mortals from immortal beings, the Elder dragons. Kuunavang and the Mysterious voice appear to be on the same side.

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@"Bast.7253" said:You're right, the voice doesn't specifically mention the cycle of the elder dragons. Kunavang is insisting that mortal's lives don't have to be brilliant, hot, and then gone. The other voice implies that they do. That that mortality is necessary to make life meaningful.Neither Kuunavang or the Voice say this either. Kuunavang's line of "it doesn't have to be this way" has no direct connection to any specific thing. For all we know from the trailer Kuunavang is saying to Lyssa she doesn't have to do whatever she is doing(just an example)

Going from Path of Fire, where our main focus is on Balthazar, straight to Lyssa, seems equally unlikely.Well we wouldn't be going straight to Lyssa, we have had all of LWS4, and Icebrood Saga, which had jack all to do with the gods, in between.

They revised a bunch of Utopian lore in the art book and they've been pretty heavily dealing with the mists for the past two living story seasons. Plenty of opportunity for the gods to show up and for them to tie in Lyssa later on.I think this is wishing too much for Utopia to come back as a thing when I don't see it happening.

@ThatOddOne.4387 said:Whilst I also don't think the Gods are going to be involved in this expansion, this is still not accurate. ArenaNet have said we still haven't seen the last of the Gods, and there absolutely is a suggestion as to what they are doing - Looking for a new world.Please read the thread before responding next time, hell, read the quoted post before you respond next time. Nothing you said relates to what I said.

Obviously the god story isn't done if Lyssa comes back. I said the gods wouldn't be returning as a whole, as in all of them. Also the book that claims they are looking for a new world was written by a crazed fanatic. If the gods were actually doing this one would think they would have told people instead of just leaving Tyria, their realms, and everyone who follows them, without saying a word.

@Psientist.6437 said:I think you are misinterpreting Kuunavang, she is defending mortality. The line about brilliant, hot and gone is a standard way to describe mortals favorably in fantasy.That line was said by the other voice, not Kuunavang though.

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@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@"Bast.7253" said:You're right, the voice doesn't specifically mention the cycle of the elder dragons. Kunavang is insisting that mortal's lives don't have to be brilliant, hot, and then gone. The other voice implies that they do. That that mortality is necessary to make life meaningful.Neither Kuunavang or the Voice say this either. Kuunavang's line of "it doesn't have to be this way" has no direct connection to any specific thing. For all we know from the trailer Kuunavang is saying to Lyssa she doesn't have to do whatever she is doing(just an example)

Going from Path of Fire, where our main focus is on Balthazar, straight to Lyssa, seems equally unlikely.Well we wouldn't be going straight to Lyssa, we have had all of LWS4, and Icebrood Saga, which had jack all to do with the gods, in between.

They revised a bunch of Utopian lore in the art book and they've been pretty heavily dealing with the mists for the past two living story seasons. Plenty of opportunity for the gods to show up and for them to tie in Lyssa later on.I think this is wishing too much for Utopia to come back as a thing when I don't see it happening.

@ThatOddOne.4387 said:Whilst I also don't think the Gods are going to be involved in this expansion, this is still not accurate. ArenaNet have said we still haven't seen the last of the Gods, and there absolutely is a suggestion as to what they are doing - Looking for a new world.Please read the thread before responding next time, hell, read the quoted post before you respond next time. Nothing you said relates to what I said.

Obviously the god story isn't done if Lyssa comes back. I said the gods wouldn't be returning as a whole, as in all of them. Also the book that claims they are looking for a new world was written by a crazed fanatic. If the gods were actually doing this one would think they would have told people instead of just leaving Tyria, their realms, and everyone who follows them, without saying a word.

@"Psientist.6437" said:I think you are misinterpreting Kuunavang, she is defending mortality. The line about brilliant, hot and gone is a standard way to describe mortals favorably in fantasy.That line was said by the other voice, not Kuunavang though.

You seem to be pretty stuck on this idea of Lyssa. So what's her reasoning? Why now? Why in Cantha? What would her plan have to do with Kunavang? I mean, I do like the idea of her being involved in a potentially water themed expansion given water is one of her inherited domains, but if we take the lines of dialogue that the other voice says: (Despite the voice sounding male to me and several others)

Transcript:

(Kunavang):This land...It's a monument to mortal resillience.They built new lives upon the very thing..That sought to end theirs.

(Mysterious Voice):Mortals are little flames.Brilliant, hot, then gone.Those who face eternity easily forget...What a lifetime means.What an ending means.

(Kunavang)You know it doesn't have to be this way.

(Mysterious voice)No, Kunavang, it does.They need me.

  1. The mysterious voice is talking about "mortals", not just "humans" but presumably all mortal races.
  2. The voice is talking about eternity, but also an "ending."

What ending would Lyssa be referring to?

My interpretation, mortals is referring to all the mortal races. The cycle of the elder dragons seems most plausible as ending, to me, would imply the ending of civilizations.

Reading this, it seems pretty obvious that the mysterious voice is advocating against immortality, implying either:

"They need me to fulfill the role that I do, to remind them of their mortality and give their lives meaning.""They need me to prevent you from allowing them immortality."

The latter seems a bit off after rewatching.

So what would her goal be? What do you think her plan could be, if it were Lyssa?

Balthazar was pretty straight forward, he felt betrayed and he wanted power. But what's Lyssa's objective here? Assuming she gifted the mirror and he didn't just snipe it from her reliquary, why would she knowingly give Balthazar her mirror and help him on his mission just to involve herself after his defeat? And then, ignoring the part about "ending" presumably show somekind of compassion for mortals even if it's talking about giving their life meaning by reminding them of their mortality?

I'm just not getting the logic behind assuming that this is Lyssa, from a story perspective, or why Kunavang would have any interest/say in their plan. I mean, Lyssa is presumably still a full-powered god, so why would she even be debating with a lesser dragon or explaining her reasoning?

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@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:Obviously the god story isn't done if Lyssa comes back. I said the gods wouldn't be returning as a whole, as in all of them. Also the book that claims they are looking for a new world was written by a crazed fanatic. If the gods were actually doing this one would think they would have told people instead of just leaving Tyria, their realms, and everyone who follows them, without saying a word.

That is still a 'suggestion' as to what they are doing, and in the absence of any others, it's as good as any we've received, don't be obtuse.

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@"Bast.7253" said:You seem to be pretty stuck on this idea of Lyssa. So what's her reasoning? Why now? Why in Cantha? What would her plan have to do with Kunavang? I mean, I do like the idea of her being involved in a potentially water themed expansion given water is one of her inherited domains, but if we take the lines of dialogue that the other voice says: (Despite the voice sounding male to me and several others)I don't care either way. All I have done is point out why most of these arguments that it isn't her don't really add up. I've made it clear it could be anyone since the get go.

To answer your questions

  1. Whats her reasoning? Lyssa has been stated since vanilla to be the one closest to mortals. While all the other gods were off building their great holy city of Arah, it was Lyssa who walked among the people and used her powers to help them forget whatever troubled past they had before arriving on Tyria. And when construction Arah was done, the other gods had to force her to leave the mortals behind to go live there. During Path of Fire, Kormir states that "even Lyssa" was(supposedly) in favor of leaving Tyria to emphasize that, even the one who cared the most, was(supposedly) OK with leaving. Her reasoning would simply be she has always cared about mortals more then the other gods did. Something that, if it is her in the trailer, is reflected in her dialog.
  2. Why now? Well, it isn't just now. Its been noted that Balthazar didn't curse Lyssa like he did the other gods at the end of Path of Fire. Lyssa was likely helping him even back then, and was probably the one who told Balthazar about the mirror in her reliquary that Balthazar used to masquerade as Lazarus. She's been involved since LWS3, which was several years ago now. She was just in the background.
  3. Why Cantha? Because even back in Guild Wars 1 it was noted that Cantha had, by far, the most developed nation, and the most powerful army of any human nation. Its also the last remaining major bastion of humanity that the game hasn't covered. If you want an army, Cantha can provide the largest one.
  4. What would her plan have to do with Kuunavang. Well Kuuavang is an incredibly ancient and powerful dragon creature similar to Glint, and likely has information about the Elder Dragons like Glint did. If Kuunavang has said information, or if shes a viable Elder Dragon replacement, she would be a great ally in fighting the Dragons, for all the same reasons Glint and Aurene were.

What ending would Lyssa be referring to?Read that whole section of dialog again. Her dialog is "Those who face eternity easily forget... What a lifetime means. What an ending means." The "ending" she is referring to is that of life. The voice is saying that ancient entities like the gods, and dragons, who can live forever, forget what the meaning of living and dying is.

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Before jumping to too many conclusions regarding Lyssa, it is worth noting that in Kormir's journal, she mentions that Lyssa was mocking Kormir for staying behind. Which implies that, whatever Lyssa's past thoughts might have been in Arah, she's now in favour of leaving. (Keeping in mind that it was also Lyssa that was the spokesperson for the "this world is yours now" speech near the end of Nightfall). It's possible that events since the gods were in Arah (particularly the destruction that happened during the war with Abaddon) has caused her to shift perspective.

That said, it's also possible, particularly given that it's Lyssa, that her mockery of Kormir was intended to disguise her actual feelings on the matter, and possibly to get Kormir out of the way so she could proceed with her own plans. Still, it is worth noting that there are inconsistencies with the narrative that Lyssa still holds the views she did over a thousand years ago.

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@"draxynnic.3719" said:Before jumping to too many conclusions regarding Lyssa, it is worth noting that in Kormir's journal, she mentions that Lyssa was mocking Kormir for staying behind. Which implies that, whatever Lyssa's past thoughts might have been in Arah, she's now in favour of leaving. (Keeping in mind that it was also Lyssa that was the spokesperson for the "this world is yours now" speech near the end of Nightfall). It's possible that events since the gods were in Arah (particularly the destruction that happened during the war with Abaddon) has caused her to shift perspective.

That said, it's also possible, particularly given that it's Lyssa, that her mockery of Kormir was intended to disguise her actual feelings on the matter, and possibly to get Kormir out of the way so she could proceed with her own plans. Still, it is worth noting that there are inconsistencies with the narrative that Lyssa still holds the views she did over a thousand years ago.Or Anet could play on the lore that Lyssa is two people, the twins Llya and Lyss, and one of them was OK with leaving, but the other wasn't.

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@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@"Bast.7253" said:You seem to be pretty stuck on this idea of Lyssa. So what's her reasoning? Why now? Why in Cantha? What would her plan have to do with Kunavang? I mean, I do like the idea of her being involved in a potentially water themed expansion given water is one of her inherited domains, but if we take the lines of dialogue that the other voice says: (Despite the voice sounding male to me and several others)I don't care either way. All I have done is point out why most of these arguments that it isn't her don't really add up. I've made it clear it could be anyone since the get go.

To answer your questions
  1. Whats her reasoning? Lyssa has been stated since vanilla to be the one closest to mortals. While all the other gods were off building their great holy city of Arah, it was Lyssa who walked among the people and used her powers to help them forget whatever troubled past they had before arriving on Tyria. And when construction Arah was done, the other gods had to force her to leave the mortals behind to go live there. During Path of Fire, Kormir states that "even Lyssa" was(supposedly) in favor of leaving Tyria to emphasize that, even the one who cared the most, was(supposedly) OK with leaving. Her reasoning would simply be she has always cared about mortals more then the other gods did. Something that, if it is her in the trailer, is reflected in her dialog.
  2. Why now? Well, it isn't just now. Its been noted that Balthazar didn't curse Lyssa like he did the other gods at the end of Path of Fire. Lyssa was likely helping him even back then, and was probably the one who told Balthazar about the mirror in her reliquary that Balthazar used to masquerade as Lazarus. She's been involved since LWS3, which was several years ago now. She was just in the background.
  3. Why Cantha? Because even back in Guild Wars 1 it was noted that Cantha had, by far, the most developed nation, and the most powerful army of any human nation. Its also the last remaining major bastion of humanity that the game hasn't covered. If you want an army, Cantha can provide the largest one.
  4. What would her plan have to do with Kuunavang. Well Kuuavang is an incredibly ancient and powerful dragon creature similar to Glint, and likely has information about the Elder Dragons like Glint did. If Kuunavang has said information, or if shes a viable Elder Dragon replacement, she would be a great ally in fighting the Dragons, for all the same reasons Glint and Aurene were.

What ending would Lyssa be referring to?Read that whole section of dialog again. Her dialog is "Those who face eternity easily forget... What a lifetime means. What an ending means." The "ending" she is referring to is that of life. The voice is saying that ancient entities like the gods, and dragons, who can live forever, forget what the meaning of living and dying is.

  1. Humanity, sure, but ALL mortals? I suppose there were some non-human races in Arah.
  2. Why act directly now though? And again, why aid Balthazar in his journey to aid Kralk knowing that it could have resulted in the end of Tyria? So much for the mortal races... Unless there's some larger plan involved and she's having to step in now for some reason. But do you really think they're going to be able to cover that elaborate of a plot in what.. 10 hours of episodes and a few story instances?
  3. We also have no idea what's happened to Cantha since isolation. They had the largest army at the time, but we have no idea what's happened since then. Even still, why wouldn't have Balthazar pursued gaining his army the same way? If he just wanted an army, why use the exalted to create the forged? The only reason I can think of would be if they had immunity to Kralk's corruption. Seems like he could have used quite a few of his human followers to further his agenda though, and despite that he still chose to hid his true identity. Why though? It's not like the humans would have been exiled from the pantheon because the other gods weren't around to say otherwise.
  4. Sure, Lyssa gets insight from Kunavang on how to combat the elder dragons. But again, the gods left because of the havoc they were afraid of causing from going to battle with them. Surely, at this point, she would know that killing one would cause mass destruction/completely destroy what's left to the balance of Tyria. So if she is seeking to do this, it's certainly not out of good will or concern for the mortal races. And it's really not all that different from the exact same course Balthazar took.

After watching WP's latest video he mentioned someone else's comment about the dialogue, specifically "they."

Implying that "they" could be referencing the elder dragons, or even some other immortal entity. "They need me" could be indicating that whoever is speaking needs to correct/alter that immortality, to give them meaning. So, to the possibility that this is Lyssa, it could be understandable because she either 1. Wants to be the end of dragons and their immortality, correct their mindset and stop the cycle of destruction by forcing them to empathize with the mortal races. 2. She's not talking about the dragons and is instead talking about the gods. Perhaps she's upset with the others for leaving, or feels betrayed by them similarly to Balthazar. She feels they've been neglectful of humanity and wants to force them to empathize.

On those notes, I'd imagine it would have to be number 1, because it's not really a conversation Kunavang would have any insight into or even care.

If it's not Lyssa, "Mother" and DSD don't really seem like great fits. I suppose it could be something else entirely upset with the cycle of dragons and their immortality, but again, how does having this conversation fit with Kunavang?

It seems too soon to rule out anybody, it just feels like Lyssa would be a bit more of a stretch. I do like the idea that she could be involved though and the logo and aesthetics of the trailer, in retrospect, do feel like visual cues outside of the "purple mist" everywhere. I.e., the general color scheme, the humans running in the video look similar to mesmer illusions that just sort of shatter and disentegrate, the duality of the logo and (despite being dragons) look like it could be a reflection of the same dragon, and the general predictable water theme.

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