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Kuunavang and the Voice


EdwinLi.1284

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@"Bast.7253" said:Lyssa just doesn't make any sense. I think people are reading too much into the purple mist. I get that she's been hinted at for quite awhile now, but I feel like they're setting that up for after this expansion. With the revised Utopia lore and this potentially revising the cycle, it may make room for the gods to reenter the picture as a whole. Lyssa potentially being the introductory character.Definitely agree there, on every bit of it.

I'm thinking the second character is going to be some other dragon scion. The dialogue definitely implies, to me, to be two not-yet-but-could-be-elder lesser dragons talking.

I'm still not convinced that "non-dragons can take the place of Elder Dragons" though. The Pale Tree is possible, given it's a dragon champion. But Spirits of the Wild? I'm doubtful they could take the burden either singularly or collectively.

Maybe even something entirely new that we discover in Cantha, especially given all the weirdness that was going on in Echovald with the Wardens and whatever magic they were using.

The wardens are tied to Urgoz who was a forest spirit, a nature spirit of the Echovald Forest - this puts Urgoz (and Zhu Hanuku, a sea spirit) in similar - if not the same - category as the Spirits of the Wild and Nulfastu.

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:I doubt the gods as a whole are going to renter the picture. Balthazar is dead, and we have direct confirmation that Kormir, Grenth, and Melandru, have left, and have abandoned their followers and realms, with zero suggestion there is anything else at play for them. That just leaves Lyssa and Dwayna, and we know Lyssa is up to something.ANet did specifically state that the gods' plot isn't over in GW2 - specifically gods, plural - and this was after Path of Fire.

Keep in mind, that the gods left because of the Elder Dragons. No more Elder Dragon threat, no more reason for the gods to go looking for a world without Elder Dragons to - supposedly - bring Tyrians to.

Also, we got direct confirmation that Kormir was the last god to leave Tyria. So Lyssa and Dwayna left a long time ago.

And we do not know Lyssa is up to something. People suspect Lyssa is.

All the other major and minor plot points have really been done at this point.

  • The human/centaur was is over, with a decisive win for humanity.Technically speaking, the Icebrood Saga trailer shows that the human/centaur war is not over. They lost their leader, but Season 3 showed that Harathi and Modniir were still warring, and the trailer shows the centaurs are still enslaving.

@"draxynnic.3719" said:Before jumping to too many conclusions regarding Lyssa, it is worth noting that in Kormir's journal, she mentions that Lyssa was mocking Kormir for staying behind. Which implies that, whatever Lyssa's past thoughts might have been in Arah, she's now in favour of leaving. (Keeping in mind that it was also Lyssa that was the spokesperson for the "this world is yours now" speech near the end of Nightfall). It's possible that events since the gods were in Arah (particularly the destruction that happened during the war with Abaddon) has caused her to shift perspective.

That said, it's also possible, particularly given that it's Lyssa, that her mockery of Kormir was intended to disguise her actual feelings on the matter, and possibly to get Kormir out of the way so she could proceed with her own plans. Still, it is worth noting that there are inconsistencies with the narrative that Lyssa still holds the views she did over a thousand years ago.

Then there's also the matter that everything that makes us doubt Lyssa ultimately comes from a) Balthazar robbing reliquaries and b) Kormir. And A is the opposite of incriminating despite common argument otherwise in this community.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:I'm still not convinced that "non-dragons can take the place of Elder Dragons" though. The Pale Tree is possible, given it's a dragon champion. But Spirits of the Wild? I'm doubtful they could take the burden either singularly or collectively.Before IBS I would have agreed about the Spirits, but IBS has rather consistently been pushing the notion that the Spirits are giant balls of magic, so much so that they are effectively limitless sources of it. If there is anything in Guild Wars canon that could take on the energy of an Elder Dragon, without being destroyed by it, its them. Not saying that they will do so.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:ANet did specifically state that the gods' plot isn't over in GW2 - specifically gods, plural - and this was after Path of Fire.Yes, the "gods' plot", which includes Balthazar's plot, and could possibly involve Lyssa's plot in some hypothetical story. You could have only those two appear, meaning, we could only see one more god, and that would fit the criteria of the "gods' plot", as we would have two gods, justifying the use of a plural. This is how the English language works Konig. And that applies for if ANY one god appeared at some point later in the story, and that was the only god to ever appear. This ignoring that the gods' plot in GW2 has already featured both Balthazar and Kormir, meaning we have already reached the plural, and only further proving the point we could only have one more appear, and still be in the plural. Not to mention things like the Hall of Chains raid, and the appearance of fragments of several god realms, being added since Path of fire, continuing the plot of the gods without having to show us them directly.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Also, we got direct confirmation that Kormir was the last god to leave Tyria. So Lyssa and Dwayna left a long time ago.From Kormir herself, which honestly means nothing as any of the gods could have left, and then secretly came back while keeping a low profile. That's the most non-evidence possible, and a classic trope.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Technically speaking, the Icebrood Saga trailer shows that the human/centaur war is not over. They lost their leader, but Season 3 showed that Harathi and Modniir were still warring, and the trailer shows the centaurs are still enslaving.Konig, do you understand what war is? I am going to guess not, because the fact that centaurs are still enslaving humans, or still have enslaved humans from before, has literally absolutely to do with the human/centaur war, and neither does the centaur's presence in the northern region of Lake Doric, which is around the border between Kryta and centaur lands anyways. War is a very specific kind of conflict between two groups, and you can still have conflict between said two groups after the war is over, without being in another war. The human/Charr war is long over, but there are still some Charr who attack humans, doesn't mean the humans and Charr are at war. Not all conflict between two groups is a war. Even with the Human/centaur war being over there's still going to be centaur bands attacking Kryta, and centaur's aren't going to just release all of the humans they had enslaved. Just like they were doing that BEFORE the human/centaur war started.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Then there's also the matter that everything that makes us doubt Lyssa ultimately comes from a) Balthazar robbing reliquaries and b) Kormir. And A is the opposite of incriminating despite common argument otherwise in this community.and c) Balthazar cursed the names of all the gods, except Lyssa, as he died, and Anet has confirmed there is a reason for that. Which would tie back into point a, under the assumption Lyssa told him about it and suggested he use it, or something similar in terms of assistance. You choosing to intentionally ignore the biggest piece of evidence behind the theory doesn't mean it doesn't exist, nor does it erase the dev's comments about it.

You do not have the right to attempt to rewrite history, stop trying to do so constantly.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"Bast.7253" said:Lyssa just doesn't make any sense. I think people are reading too much into the purple mist. I get that she's been hinted at for quite awhile now, but I feel like they're setting that up for after this expansion. With the revised Utopia lore and this potentially revising the cycle, it may make room for the gods to reenter the picture as a whole. Lyssa potentially being the introductory character.Definitely agree there, on every bit of it.

I'm thinking the second character is going to be some other dragon scion. The dialogue definitely implies, to me, to be two not-yet-but-could-be-elder lesser dragons talking.

I'm still not convinced that "non-dragons can take the place of Elder Dragons" though. The Pale Tree is possible, given it's a dragon champion. But Spirits of the Wild? I'm doubtful they could take the burden either singularly or collectively.

Maybe even something entirely new that we discover in Cantha, especially given all the weirdness that was going on in Echovald with the Wardens and whatever magic they were using.

The wardens are tied to Urgoz who was a forest spirit, a nature spirit of the Echovald Forest - this puts Urgoz (and Zhu Hanuku, a sea spirit) in similar - if not the same - category as the Spirits of the Wild and Nulfastu.

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:I doubt the gods as a whole are going to renter the picture. Balthazar is dead, and we have direct confirmation that Kormir, Grenth, and Melandru, have left, and have abandoned their followers and realms, with zero suggestion there is anything else at play for them. That just leaves Lyssa and Dwayna, and we know Lyssa is up to something.ANet did specifically state that the gods' plot isn't over in GW2 - specifically gods, plural - and this was after Path of Fire.

Keep in mind, that the gods left because of the Elder Dragons. No more Elder Dragon threat, no more reason for the gods to go looking for a world without Elder Dragons to - supposedly - bring Tyrians to.

Also, we got direct confirmation that Kormir was the
last
god to leave Tyria. So Lyssa and Dwayna left a long time ago.

And we do not
know
Lyssa is up to something. People
suspect
Lyssa is.

All the other major and minor plot points have really been done at this point.
  • The human/centaur was is over, with a decisive win for humanity.Technically speaking, the Icebrood Saga trailer shows that the human/centaur war is
    not
    over. They lost their leader, but Season 3 showed that Harathi and Modniir were still warring, and the trailer shows the centaurs are still enslaving.

@"draxynnic.3719" said:Before jumping to too many conclusions regarding Lyssa, it is worth noting that in Kormir's journal, she mentions that Lyssa was mocking Kormir for staying behind. Which implies that, whatever Lyssa's past thoughts might have been in Arah, she's now in favour of leaving. (Keeping in mind that it was also Lyssa that was the spokesperson for the "this world is yours now" speech near the end of Nightfall). It's possible that events since the gods were in Arah (particularly the destruction that happened during the war with Abaddon) has caused her to shift perspective.

That said, it's also possible, particularly given that it's
Lyssa,
that her mockery of Kormir was intended to disguise her actual feelings on the matter, and possibly to get Kormir out of the way so she could proceed with her own plans. Still, it is worth noting that there are inconsistencies with the narrative that Lyssa still holds the views she did over a thousand years ago.

Then there's also the matter that everything that makes us doubt Lyssa ultimately comes from a) Balthazar robbing reliquaries and b) Kormir. And A is the opposite of incriminating despite common argument otherwise in this community.

Well according to Kormir in PoF, the gods can be fooled by Lyssa’s illusions, so its entirely possible that she stayed behind in hiding in a human form in Cantha which given the scriptures was a common tactic that Lyssa used. Perhaps Lyssa also wanted to deal with the dragons like Balthazar, however had different methods of doing such.

Lyssa is also an enigma too because of duality, where she could have many contradictions as well as illusions on her side. Given how Anet “bread crumbed” Balthazar with very subtle hints, this purple mist could be what they are doing for Lyssa.

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@Tyson.5160 said:

@"Bast.7253" said:Lyssa just doesn't make any sense. I think people are reading too much into the purple mist. I get that she's been hinted at for quite awhile now, but I feel like they're setting that up for after this expansion. With the revised Utopia lore and this potentially revising the cycle, it may make room for the gods to reenter the picture as a whole. Lyssa potentially being the introductory character.Definitely agree there, on every bit of it.

I'm thinking the second character is going to be some other dragon scion. The dialogue definitely implies, to me, to be two not-yet-but-could-be-elder lesser dragons talking.

I'm still not convinced that "non-dragons can take the place of Elder Dragons" though. The Pale Tree is possible, given it's a dragon champion. But Spirits of the Wild? I'm doubtful they could take the burden either singularly or collectively.

Maybe even something entirely new that we discover in Cantha, especially given all the weirdness that was going on in Echovald with the Wardens and whatever magic they were using.

The wardens are tied to Urgoz who was a forest spirit, a nature spirit of the Echovald Forest - this puts Urgoz (and Zhu Hanuku, a sea spirit) in similar - if not the same - category as the Spirits of the Wild and Nulfastu.

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:I doubt the gods as a whole are going to renter the picture. Balthazar is dead, and we have direct confirmation that Kormir, Grenth, and Melandru, have left, and have abandoned their followers and realms, with zero suggestion there is anything else at play for them. That just leaves Lyssa and Dwayna, and we know Lyssa is up to something.ANet did specifically state that the gods' plot isn't over in GW2 - specifically gods, plural - and this was after Path of Fire.

Keep in mind, that the gods left because of the Elder Dragons. No more Elder Dragon threat, no more reason for the gods to go looking for a world without Elder Dragons to - supposedly - bring Tyrians to.

Also, we got direct confirmation that Kormir was the
last
god to leave Tyria. So Lyssa and Dwayna left a long time ago.

And we do not
know
Lyssa is up to something. People
suspect
Lyssa is.

All the other major and minor plot points have really been done at this point.
  • The human/centaur was is over, with a decisive win for humanity.Technically speaking, the Icebrood Saga trailer shows that the human/centaur war is
    not
    over. They lost their leader, but Season 3 showed that Harathi and Modniir were still warring, and the trailer shows the centaurs are still enslaving.

@"draxynnic.3719" said:Before jumping to too many conclusions regarding Lyssa, it is worth noting that in Kormir's journal, she mentions that Lyssa was mocking Kormir for staying behind. Which implies that, whatever Lyssa's past thoughts might have been in Arah, she's now in favour of leaving. (Keeping in mind that it was also Lyssa that was the spokesperson for the "this world is yours now" speech near the end of Nightfall). It's possible that events since the gods were in Arah (particularly the destruction that happened during the war with Abaddon) has caused her to shift perspective.

That said, it's also possible, particularly given that it's
Lyssa,
that her mockery of Kormir was intended to disguise her actual feelings on the matter, and possibly to get Kormir out of the way so she could proceed with her own plans. Still, it is worth noting that there are inconsistencies with the narrative that Lyssa still holds the views she did over a thousand years ago.

Then there's also the matter that everything that makes us doubt Lyssa ultimately comes from a) Balthazar robbing reliquaries and b) Kormir. And A is the opposite of incriminating despite common argument otherwise in this community.

Well according to Kormir in PoF, the gods can be fooled by Lyssa’s illusions, so its entirely possible that she stayed behind in hiding in a human form in Cantha which given the scriptures was a common tactic that Lyssa used. Perhaps Lyssa also wanted to deal with the dragons like Balthazar, however had different methods of doing such.

Lyssa is also an enigma too because of duality, where she could have many contradictions as well as illusions on her side. Given how Anet “bread crumbed” Balthazar with very subtle hints, this purple mist could be what they are doing for Lyssa.

Maybe, but I feel like the breadcrumb of a vague buff on an npc's bar is a little different than littering an entire teaser with purple. :lol:

I guess the charred marks of the white mantle at the bloodstone's pedestal could count too.

But yeah, there are other things in the teaser that could hint to Lyssa, like the illuion-looking humanoids running (but I think that's just a neat art technique) and the general duality of the logo looking like a dragon and a reflection of the dragon (though more likely two different dragons on opposing sides.)

I just think it's unlikely unless she's a character that is going to either introduce us to Cantha somehow or be introduced slowly as a character leading into the next season while we're in Cantha. In either case I'm not sure the purple mist would really be appropriate as whatever it is tends to be pretty front and center.

I'm also leaning more towards this being a vision that we witness through Aurene at the scrying pool, given the introduction being these glimmering multi-colored lights on the sides as we fly through the city. Reminds me of Aurene doing her light speed flight like she did in Grothmar during the opening ceremony before branding the devourer.If that's the case, it could be the long distant past, or the past soon after the defeat of Shiro after they were "building their new lives." Personally I don't think the building new lives part is in reference to the Jade Wind or the Affliction because neither were really sentient things that "sought" to destroy them, so much as after effects of someone else that was manipulated.

But anyway, who knows. There's certainly no shortage of possibilities.

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@Bast.7253 said:

@Bast.7253 said:Lyssa just doesn't make any sense. I think people are reading too much into the purple mist. I get that she's been hinted at for quite awhile now, but I feel like they're setting that up for after this expansion. With the revised Utopia lore and this potentially revising the cycle, it may make room for the gods to reenter the picture as a whole. Lyssa potentially being the introductory character.Definitely agree there, on every bit of it.

I'm thinking the second character is going to be some other dragon scion. The dialogue definitely implies, to me, to be two not-yet-but-could-be-elder lesser dragons talking.

I'm still not convinced that "non-dragons can take the place of Elder Dragons" though. The Pale Tree is possible, given it's a dragon champion. But Spirits of the Wild? I'm doubtful they could take the burden either singularly or collectively.

Maybe even something entirely new that we discover in Cantha, especially given all the weirdness that was going on in Echovald with the Wardens and whatever magic they were using.

The wardens are tied to Urgoz who was a forest spirit, a nature spirit of the Echovald Forest - this puts Urgoz (and Zhu Hanuku, a sea spirit) in similar - if not the same - category as the Spirits of the Wild and Nulfastu.

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:I doubt the gods as a whole are going to renter the picture. Balthazar is dead, and we have direct confirmation that Kormir, Grenth, and Melandru, have left, and have abandoned their followers and realms, with zero suggestion there is anything else at play for them. That just leaves Lyssa and Dwayna, and we know Lyssa is up to something.ANet did specifically state that the gods' plot isn't over in GW2 - specifically gods, plural - and this was after Path of Fire.

Keep in mind, that the gods left because of the Elder Dragons. No more Elder Dragon threat, no more reason for the gods to go looking for a world without Elder Dragons to - supposedly - bring Tyrians to.

Also, we got direct confirmation that Kormir was the
last
god to leave Tyria. So Lyssa and Dwayna left a long time ago.

And we do not
know
Lyssa is up to something. People
suspect
Lyssa is.

All the other major and minor plot points have really been done at this point.
  • The human/centaur was is over, with a decisive win for humanity.Technically speaking, the Icebrood Saga trailer shows that the human/centaur war is
    not
    over. They lost their leader, but Season 3 showed that Harathi and Modniir were still warring, and the trailer shows the centaurs are still enslaving.

@"draxynnic.3719" said:Before jumping to too many conclusions regarding Lyssa, it is worth noting that in Kormir's journal, she mentions that Lyssa was mocking Kormir for staying behind. Which implies that, whatever Lyssa's past thoughts might have been in Arah, she's now in favour of leaving. (Keeping in mind that it was also Lyssa that was the spokesperson for the "this world is yours now" speech near the end of Nightfall). It's possible that events since the gods were in Arah (particularly the destruction that happened during the war with Abaddon) has caused her to shift perspective.

That said, it's also possible, particularly given that it's
Lyssa,
that her mockery of Kormir was intended to disguise her actual feelings on the matter, and possibly to get Kormir out of the way so she could proceed with her own plans. Still, it is worth noting that there are inconsistencies with the narrative that Lyssa still holds the views she did over a thousand years ago.

Then there's also the matter that everything that makes us doubt Lyssa ultimately comes from a) Balthazar robbing reliquaries and b) Kormir. And A is the opposite of incriminating despite common argument otherwise in this community.

Well according to Kormir in PoF, the gods can be fooled by Lyssa’s illusions, so its entirely possible that she stayed behind in hiding in a human form in Cantha which given the scriptures was a common tactic that Lyssa used. Perhaps Lyssa also wanted to deal with the dragons like Balthazar, however had different methods of doing such.

Lyssa is also an enigma too because of duality, where she could have many contradictions as well as illusions on her side. Given how Anet “bread crumbed” Balthazar with very subtle hints, this purple mist could be what they are doing for Lyssa.

Maybe, but I feel like the breadcrumb of a vague buff on an npc's bar is a little different than littering an entire teaser with purple. :lol:

I guess the charred marks of the white mantle at the bloodstone's pedestal could count too.

But yeah, there are other things in the teaser that could hint to Lyssa, like the illuion-looking humanoids running (but I think that's just a neat art technique) and the general duality of the logo looking like a dragon and a reflection of the dragon (though more likely two different dragons on opposing sides.)

I just think it's unlikely unless she's a character that is going to either introduce us to Cantha somehow or be introduced slowly as a character leading into the next season while we're in Cantha. In either case I'm not sure the purple mist would really be appropriate as whatever it is tends to be pretty front and center.

I'm also leaning more towards this being a vision that we witness through Aurene at the scrying pool, given the introduction being these glimmering multi-colored lights on the sides as we fly through the city. Reminds me of Aurene doing her light speed flight like she did in Grothmar during the opening ceremony before branding the devourer.If that's the case, it could be the long distant past, or the past soon after the defeat of Shiro after they were "building their new lives." Personally I don't think the building new lives part is in reference to the Jade Wind or the Affliction because neither were really sentient things that "sought" to destroy them, so much as after effects of someone else that was manipulated.

But anyway, who knows. There's certainly no shortage of possibilities.

If you look back at the flashpoint trailer it’s also littered with fire, which could represent Primordus, however it never really stated where we would be going in the trailer and was focussed on who Lazarus really was. Lazarus used fire and spoke of divine light as well as the abilities he used. They also snuck in a Balthazar shield in one of the cutscenes.

I just find it strange to have purple mist in the trailer at all, since it’s clearly deliberate as well as an introduction to a “new” character.

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@"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:Not to mention things like the Hall of Chains raid, and the appearance of fragments of several god realms, being added since Path of fire, continuing the plot of the gods without having to show us them directly.Those are hardly continuation of the gods' plots. Especially so for Dragonfall.

And also rather hypocritical of you, since that has weaker ties of "continuing plot" than the Renegades' involvement with Bangar and Icebrood Saga, which you vehemently denied there being a continued plot of Renegades previously.

From Kormir herself, which honestly means nothing as any of the gods could have left, and then secretly came back while keeping a low profile. That's the most non-evidence possible, and a classic trope.If you trust Kormir's statements - as you seem to - then she is fully aware of the ongoings of the actions of Tyria aside from using illusion magic. Which would deny Dwayna as coming back.

Technically speaking, the Icebrood Saga trailer shows that the human/centaur war is
not
over. They lost their leader, but Season 3 showed that Harathi and Modniir were still warring, and the trailer shows the centaurs are still enslaving.Konig, do you understand what war is? I am going to guess not, because the fact that centaurs are still enslaving humans, or still have enslaved humans from before, has literally absolutely to do with the human/centaur war, and neither does the centaur's presence in the northern region of Lake Doric, which is around the border between Kryta and centaur lands anyways. War is a very specific kind of conflict between two groups, and you can still have conflict between said two groups after the war is over, without being in another war. The human/Charr war is long over, but there are still some Charr who attack humans, doesn't mean the humans and Charr are at war. Not all conflict between two groups is a war. Even with the Human/centaur war being over there's still going to be centaur bands attacking Kryta, and centaur's aren't going to just release all of the humans they had enslaved. Just like they were doing that BEFORE the human/centaur war started.

I'm aware of what a war is, I'm also aware that simply assassinating the leader does not end wars. There is nothing to indicate that the Centaur War has ended, especially since it has waged on since 300 AE with ebbs and flows in activity since then.

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Then there's also the matter that everything that makes us doubt Lyssa ultimately comes from a) Balthazar robbing reliquaries and b) Kormir. And A is the opposite of incriminating despite common argument otherwise in this community.and c) Balthazar cursed the names of all the gods, except Lyssa, as he died, and Anet has confirmed there is a reason for that. Which would tie back into point a, under the assumption Lyssa told him about it and suggested he use it, or something similar in terms of assistance. You choosing to intentionally ignore the biggest piece of evidence behind the theory doesn't mean it doesn't exist, nor does it erase the dev's comments about it.

You do not have the right to attempt to rewrite history, stop trying to do so constantly.

I lump that into point A, actually. I wasn't ignoring it, nor denying it, and I knew well that ANet confirmed there's a reason for such. But that does not incriminate Lyssa in of itself. If Kormir's lying - she is the goddess of secrets after all - then that line could have any number of meanings. Even if she wasn't lying, Balthazar not cursing Lyssa could still have any number of reasons.

I am not attempting to rewrite history. I'm just pointing out the fact that you have to make assumptions like "Lyssa told him about it and suggested he use it, or something similar in terms of assistance" for it to have a reason for being said (or rather, not said).

@"Tyson.5160" said:Well according to Kormir in PoF, the gods can be fooled by Lyssa’s illusions, so its entirely possible that she stayed behind in hiding in a human form in Cantha which given the scriptures was a common tactic that Lyssa used. Perhaps Lyssa also wanted to deal with the dragons like Balthazar, however had different methods of doing such.

Lyssa is also an enigma too because of duality, where she could have many contradictions as well as illusions on her side. Given how Anet “bread crumbed” Balthazar with very subtle hints, this purple mist could be what they are doing for Lyssa.

Why Cantha, when everything going on has been happening in Central Tyria?

Why bring in the gods in an expansion about dragons, and titled about dragons?

All arguments I see about Lyssa being involved is more out of want, than legitimate reasons for it to happen. And every single time such has happened, the theory proves false.

About the purple mist, I am 90% sure that if it is representing anything, it's representing Miasma, which was a purple mist from GW1. Why would it still be there? Because the entire trailer shows Cantha in the state of GW1. This is most evident in the Jade Sea, which is fully solid in the trailer, despite all lore stating it had begun to thaw 250 years ago.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:Not to mention things like the Hall of Chains raid, and the appearance of fragments of several god realms, being added since Path of fire, continuing the plot of the gods without having to show us them directly.Those are hardly continuation of the gods' plots. Especially so for Dragonfall.

And also rather hypocritical of you, since that has weaker ties of "continuing plot" than the Renegades' involvement with Bangar and Icebrood Saga, which you vehemently denied there being a continued plot of Renegades previously.

From Kormir herself, which honestly means nothing as any of the gods could have left, and then secretly came back while keeping a low profile. That's the most non-evidence possible, and a classic trope.If you trust Kormir's statements - as you seem to - then she is fully aware of the ongoings of the actions of Tyria aside from using illusion magic. Which would deny Dwayna as coming back.

Technically speaking, the Icebrood Saga trailer shows that the human/centaur war is
not
over. They lost their leader, but Season 3 showed that Harathi and Modniir were still warring, and the trailer shows the centaurs are still enslaving.Konig, do you understand what war is? I am going to guess not, because the fact that centaurs are still enslaving humans, or still have enslaved humans from before, has literally absolutely to do with the human/centaur war, and neither does the centaur's presence in the northern region of Lake Doric, which is around the border between Kryta and centaur lands anyways. War is a very specific kind of conflict between two groups, and you can still have conflict between said two groups after the war is over, without being in another war. The human/Charr war is long over, but there are still some Charr who attack humans, doesn't mean the humans and Charr are at war. Not all conflict between two groups is a war. Even with the Human/centaur war being over there's still going to be centaur bands attacking Kryta, and centaur's aren't going to just release all of the humans they had enslaved. Just like they were doing that BEFORE the human/centaur war started.

I'm aware of what a war is, I'm also aware that simply assassinating the leader does not end wars. There is nothing to indicate that the Centaur War has ended, especially since it has waged on since 300 AE with ebbs and flows in activity since then.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Then there's also the matter that everything that makes us doubt Lyssa ultimately comes from a) Balthazar robbing reliquaries and b) Kormir. And A is the opposite of incriminating despite common argument otherwise in this community.and c) Balthazar cursed the names of all the gods, except Lyssa, as he died, and Anet has confirmed there is a reason for that. Which would tie back into point a, under the assumption Lyssa told him about it and suggested he use it, or something similar in terms of assistance. You choosing to intentionally ignore the biggest piece of evidence behind the theory doesn't mean it doesn't exist, nor does it erase the dev's comments about it.

You do not have the right to attempt to rewrite history, stop trying to do so constantly.

I lump that into point A, actually. I wasn't ignoring it, nor denying it, and I knew well that ANet confirmed there's a reason for such. But that does not incriminate Lyssa in of itself. If Kormir's lying - she
is
the goddess of secrets after all - then that line could have any number of meanings. Even if she wasn't lying, Balthazar not cursing Lyssa could still have any number of reasons.

I am not attempting to rewrite history. I'm just pointing out the fact that you have to make assumptions like "Lyssa told him about it and suggested he use it, or something similar in terms of assistance" for it to have a reason for being said (or rather, not said).

@"Tyson.5160" said:Well according to Kormir in PoF, the gods can be fooled by Lyssa’s illusions, so its entirely possible that she stayed behind in hiding in a human form in Cantha which given the scriptures was a common tactic that Lyssa used. Perhaps Lyssa also wanted to deal with the dragons like Balthazar, however had different methods of doing such.

Lyssa is also an enigma too because of duality, where she could have many contradictions as well as illusions on her side. Given how Anet “bread crumbed” Balthazar with very subtle hints, this purple mist could be what they are doing for Lyssa.

Why Cantha, when everything going on has been happening in Central Tyria?

Why bring in the gods in an expansion about dragons, and titled about dragons?

All
arguments I see about Lyssa being involved is more out of want, than legitimate reasons for it to happen. And
every single time
such has happened, the theory proves false.

About the purple mist, I am 90% sure that if it is representing anything, it's representing
, which was a purple mist from GW1. Why would it still be there? Because
the entire trailer shows Cantha in the state of GW1
. This is most evident in the Jade Sea, which is fully solid in the trailer, despite all lore stating it had begun to thaw 250 years ago.

To be fair though the story can shift drastically in a single episode. When we were playing Season 3 how many figured we would be going to the Crystal Desert after Balthazar.

Yeah, I wouldn’t mind Lyssa being in the expansion, mainly because I want that window closed from what was open in Season 3 and PoF.

Would also explain the voice because that seems to fit as well.

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@"Tyson.5160" said:To be fair though the story can shift drastically in a single episode. When we were playing Season 3 how many figured we would be going to the Crystal Desert after Balthazar.

Yeah, I wouldn’t mind Lyssa being in the expansion, mainly because I want that window closed from what was open in Season 3 and PoF.

Would also explain the voice because that seems to fit as well.

To be fair, the revelation of Flashpoint was very, very poorly done and is probably the only case of a drastic change in direction (aside from the very episodic Season 1). And it didn't have its name lie either - Flashpoint, One Path Ends, and Path of Fire were all very much on point for their content. End of Dragons dealing with a god? Not so much.

And I would disagree with the voice. People have been calling it male, female, or simply androgenous. It's very much one person speaking. So it doesn't fit a double clearly female goddess. I imagine that when we get to Lyssa, she'll be speaking with an echo that sounds like two identical voices overlapped. Since they are "two who are one" and all that.

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A request;

It would be nice if this thread didn’t descend into arguing and personal attacks like so many others in this sub forum please. Some of the discussion is interesting and I enjoy reading opinions from those with far more extensive knowledge of the lore than myself and other players - but the little digs and derogatory back and forths between certain posters is starting to dominate the sub forum these days.

By all means disagree, but keeping the tone more pleasant and less personal would be appreciated for some of us reading the discourse.

Thanks

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Well, Sajuuk, since you once again prove you can't discuss lore without hostility, guess I'm done responding to you.

@"Dante.1508" said:I think then Kuunavang could be talking to the Zodiacs. The Zodiacs were a big thing in Cantha, they were literally their gods.Which Celestial would you think, then? There were at least 15.

At this point its hard to say but i'd guess which ever is considered the lead or wisest.https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/CelestialBit of lore i guess.Could Be Tahmu or Kuonghsang who knows?

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@Dante.1508 said:Worshipping something by definition is a god?Uhh no?

Not to delve to far into real world religions, but Buddhists worship Buddha, and his teachings, but admit he isn't a god, just a guy who was really wise. Even in-game, the Norn worship the Spirits of the Wild, but also admit they don't see them as gods, just wise beings worthy of respect and worship for the wisdom and powers they give.

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I'm not sure where y'all are getting the Lyssa thing. She is mentioned nowhere in the video and has always been portrayed as human and female. The Voice, which is definitely male or y'all need to have your hearing checked, is the dragon that is swirling around in the video, as it comes full face with the words, "They need me." Furthermore, the Voice is NOT the DSD, since its behavior is clearly benevolent and what little we know of the DSD is not. Perhaps a scion of the DSD and/or Kuunavang would be my guess.

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@"Psientist.6437" said:The bottom dragon in the logo looks more like an Elder dragon, the top dragon looks younger. The dragons are arranged in a cycle.

Perhaps we are simply reaching the end of this cycle of dragon awakening. It has wrought great change upon Tyria, as all the cycles have. What future cycles will hold is unknown.

Related thought regarding Primordus: we haven't seen or heard from Primordus since LS3, and even in LS3 he wasn't a major active threat like Zhaitan or Mordremoth. If not for him being Balthazar's target -- and actually seeing him in LS3 Ep 5 -- he would have been just a bit player. Perhaps when the other EDs started getting killed and/or when the mess with Balthazar knocked the wind out of him, Primordus was smart enough to realize that the mortals of this age were a new breed. So he's decided to stay hidden underground snacking on magic and not draw hostile attention to himself, and if we did go looking for him he might offer a pretty straightforward message. "Of all the Elder Dragons, I am the one most directly tied to the physical structure of Tyria. The very ground you stand on cannot exist without me, and vice versa. You need me in the cycle of magic to continue your existence, and I would like to continue mine. Therefore I offer you a simple deal, mortals. You leave me alone, and I leave you alone. Fair enough?" That actually would be a refreshing way to deal with one of the EDs, I think.

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@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@Jimbru.6014 said:The Voice, which is definitely maleMost people I've seen have said its a female voice, and it sounds exactly like a female voice to me. It would have to be a very effeminate man for the voice to belong to one IMO.

It is without question a female voice. It’s not even close to being confused with a males voice imo

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@Randulf.7614 said:

@Jimbru.6014 said:The Voice, which is definitely maleMost people I've seen have said its a female voice, and it sounds exactly like a female voice to me. It would have to be a very effeminate man for the voice to belong to one IMO.

It is without question a female voice. It’s not even close to being confused with a males voice imo

I agree, it’s a female voice

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@"Jimbru.6014" said:The Voice, which is definitely male or y'all need to have your hearing checked, is the dragon that is swirling around in the video, as it comes full face with the words, "They need me."

The dragon at the end is confirmed to be Kuunavang, not the unknown character.

As to the voice being "definitely male" - disagreed. It's definitely deeper than Kuunavang's voice, but it is in no way absolutely male. Honestly, to me it sounds like the deeper range of female voice tones more than higher male voice tone.

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The first time I watched the trailer, I absolutely pegged that as a male voice actor. After watching/listening to the trailer a million times, I see the argument for a female VA. But honestly it would have to be a woman like Gina Davis who has a very deep voice. Even listening closely it very much skirts the gender lines which must be intentional.

In the end it doesn't really matter. I just love the vocal quality of the second speaker. So soothing.

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While leaning towards two females voices I wasn't 100% sure. They have released the German trailer since then and it's definitely two female voices. Even though one is still rather deep. I doubt they'd change gender for localization purposes (although, for example, the gender of Sun and Moon may differ depending on your language). Unless it's a genderless entity. Who knows? ;)

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Plot twist:

The other voice IS the DSD, and it's a two-headed dragon with a male voice, and a female voice. It's Mother AND Father.

It's interesting that the German was is definitely two female voices though. Because I've listened to it countless times and it still seemed like it could be male to me.

Another non-binary dragon like Jormag probably makes the most sense though. So far I guess Zhaitan, Mordremoth, and Kralk were all confirmed male?

Primordus is... male as well right? Jormag is non-binary. I does seem odd that they wouldn't have a specifically female elder dragon? Unless that's another reason why Aurene is "unique." Not only in the way she can handle magic, but that she could be the only definitively female elder dragon. And as we don't really know how dragons reproduce, could she be the first elder dragon to birth more elder dragons?

I mean it would seem that Glint had to come from somewhere in order to have Aurene and the others.

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@"Bast.7253" said:So far I guess Zhaitan, Mordremoth, and Kralk were all confirmed male?

Primordus is... male as well right? Jormag is non-binary.Kralkatorrik is the only confirmed gendered Elder Dragon. And this is (almost?) exclusively by Glint, Vlast, and Aurene and those who got it from them (e.g., the Commander and Dragon's Watch).

Zhaitan, Mordremoth, Primordus - they're usually "it" more than "he" or "she", and in the rare cases of a "he" gets used, it's more in line with how pre-social movement English users commonly used male pronouns to denote a figure of unknown or unclear gender. Jormag is technically the only exception, being viewed as male by Sons of Svanir and by extension, most norn - non-norn usually used "it" though, until Season 5 where almost everyone (except Sons of Svanir - that means, including non-Sons of Svanir norn) would use they (which has become increasingly common as the pronoun of choice for unknown/unclear/otherwise ambiguous gender). Mordremoth has a male voice actor, however, and an artificially deepened voice. So people often associate it as male.

But technically, every Elder Dragon and their scions are mono-gendered (and thus by definition, non-binary), or as it was put back in 2010: genderless (more specifically, that they "do not have genders as Tyrians know them"). Any use of male or female pronouns tend to be for association with, or comprehension by, mortals. Which is why it's the dragons that interact most with mortals that have pronoun associations made - the crystal family, Jormag, and loosely, Mordremoth.

IIRC, 90% of referencing Zhaitan and Mordremoth is as "the [jungle] dragon", rather than "he" or "it". Having just briefly looked through Hearts and Minds (HoT final instance), Mordremoth is only called "it", never he/him/his. Personally, given Zhaitan's roar is very high pitched, I like to believe that if it had a voice, it'd have had a female VA (or a higher-pitched male VA like our mysterious voice may be).

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