Ranger toughness is an issue in raids

[Delita Silverburg.8632]

So on the last balance patch the devs did a really cool thing for us raiders and removed the toughness buff on Guardian and Elementalist, but then Soulbeast became meta and since they did not remove it on Ranger we still face the same issue as before. I feel this was a small oversight, but for the sake of consistency, it would be cool if they implemented a similar effect as the 7% damage reduction that eles got when the change happened. We would prefer it if we could control who the tank is at all times and not have some random effect like merging with a pet of a soulbeast switching aggro. Thanks in advance!

[RaidsAreEasyAF.8652]

I 100% agree. Toughness is so useless. I'd rather have them add marks or SAK for the person that tanks. Like SH and PQadim

[Lexi.1398]

NGL i've had more issues with random toughness and death magic reapers than SLB toughness, but i do agree. Don't know what they could do with pack alpha that'd make sense though, it would seem weird to add a % modifier to a trait with otherwise flat bonus' - i wouldn't be sad if they just removed the toughness and kept the rest as is though (in PvE anyway, idk what wvw/pvp does or if they even care about the beastmastery traitline).

[Painbow.6059]

edit* thought this said reaper for some reason lmao

[LadyKitty.6120]

Or just have someone capable of tanking use toughness food and maybe buy some cheap exotic trinket to get over 1150 toughness. True, it's 150 wasted stats but in 99.99% of wipes that shouldn't be the difference between success and wipe. For comparison, it's like everyone in one sub lacking 1 stack of might which isn't lethal. If the tank is support or condi dps, it's about 0,1-0,2% less squad dps total and if it's a dps tank (which only Kitty does apparently), it's 0,4% squad dps loss. With healer tank, it shouldn't be even noticeable at all. (Not that it'd be in other cases either realistically unless you're running with a squad of computers running exactly the same way every single time and RNG doesn't exist.)

[Delita Silverburg.8632]

@LadyKitty.6120 said:Or just have someone capable of tanking use toughness food and maybe buy some cheap exotic trinket to get over 1150 toughness. True, it's 150 wasted stats but in 99.99% of wipes that shouldn't be the difference between success and wipe. For comparison, it's like everyone in one sub lacking 1 stack of might which isn't lethal. If the tank is support or condi dps, it's about 0,1-0,2% less squad dps total and if it's a dps tank (which only Kitty does apparently), it's 0,4% squad dps loss. With healer tank, it shouldn't be even noticeable at all. (Not that it'd be in other cases either realistically unless you're running with a squad of computers running exactly the same way every single time and RNG doesn't exist.)

You're missing the main point of my suggestion which is for toughness, what you do to 1 class you should do for all. The devs intended to remove the toughness tank swapping issue by modifying the way eles and guards work, but did nothing to soulbeast. As a result, the exact same problem exists that they were trying to resolve. I mean sure the players can compensate for the problem by having the tank change gear etc, but that leads to more downtime when you're running through a wing where only one fight runs a soulbeast and all the other ones don't need it. Alternatively, if you're wanting the tank to always have 1151 toughness then you're just making your group overall worse for fights. Tbh, idc if it's 0.4% lower squad dps, having to adjust how you play for any 1 class isn't balanced. Additionally there is time loss setting up the fight. Even in a static group of the same 10 ppl, sometimes we lose 5 minutes of time talking about toughness just to kill the boss that takes 3 minutes.

[Ayrilana.1396]

So having a tank have at least 151 toughness is asking too much?

If a group is spending 5 minutes going over toughness, especially since soulbeast is the only class you’re claiming there to be issues with, the your group as some serious problems that have nothing to do with toughness itself.

It does not take that much time for everyone to ping their toughness and for the tank to adjust. Assuming players are using meta builds, a lot of the time you don’t need them to ping it. Exceptions maybe being the hand kiter at Deimos.

[Delita Silverburg.8632]

@Ayrilana.1396 said:So having a tank have at least 151 toughness is asking too much?

If a group is spending 5 minutes going over toughness, especially since soulbeast is the only class you’re claiming there to be issues with, the your group as some serious problems that have nothing to do with toughness itself.

It does not take that much time for everyone to ping their toughness and for the tank to adjust. Assuming players are using meta builds, a lot of the time you don’t need them to ping it. Exceptions maybe being the hand kiter at Deimos.

We should be able to run a tank with 1005T without having to pander to 1 archetype. Period.

[sokeenoppa.5384]

@Ayrilana.1396 said:So having a tank have at least 151 toughness is asking too much?

If a group is spending 5 minutes going over toughness, especially since soulbeast is the only class you’re claiming there to be issues with, the your group as some serious problems that have nothing to do with toughness itself.

It does not take that much time for everyone to ping their toughness and for the tank to adjust. Assuming players are using meta builds, a lot of the time you don’t need them to ping it. Exceptions maybe being the hand kiter at Deimos.

For me its more about tank forgetting to swap gwar between fights which leads to /GGs which is anoying. Like after VG group wants to have a soulbeast for gorseval and thwn again no soulbeast for sabetha. Thats anoying gear swapping for chrono.

[Henry.5713]

Toughness based tanking has always been nothing more than their easy way out for the first wing. The idea that your most "tanky" person needs to be your tank in any situation seems so simple and basic. Most MMORPG veterans would know that games, especially one as complex as GW2, usually give you good reasons to look further than that. Not to mention that new players are known to wear quite a bit of thoughness gear for one reason or another. All of that makes their decision look pretty strange in hindsight. We should be happy the aggro isn't based on your individual HP pools.

I would very much prefer a dynamic system similar to Qadim2 that allowed us to pick our tank on the fly. Or one that allowed us to set the tank for the entire fight, if the ability to swap is considered too good.

[Delita Silverburg.8632]

@"Henry.5713" said:Toughness based tanking has always been nothing more than their easy way out for the first wing. The idea that your most "tanky" person needs to be your tank in any situation seems so simple and basic. Most MMORPG veterans would know that games, especially one as complex as GW2, usually give you good reasons to look further than that. Not to mention that new players are known to wear quite a bit of thoughness gear for one reason or another. All of that makes their decision look pretty strange in hindsight. We should be happy the aggro isn't based on your individual HP pools.

I would very much prefer a dynamic system similar to Qadim2 that allowed us to pick our tank on the fly. Or one that allowed us to set the tank for the entire fight, if the ability to swap is considered too good.

I really like the alternate idea of choosing tank with a mechanic instead of toughness, but I think Qadim2 was a poor execution of it. The reason I say this is because if the tank has to leave the center circle for any reason (such as getting the lightning strike mechanic) it randomly selects another person to be the tank that's in the circle. Then the only way for it to get back to the proper tank, is for everyone except the tank to leave the circle area so that it "randomly" selects the only viable target which is the original tank. I've had a few sloppy pulls where this has happened, and I firmly believe it's a poorly designed mechanic as a result. Soulless Horror's "Challenge" mechanic is MUCH better designed imo.

[Shiyo.3578]

This is an issue open world and strikes. I'm constantly tanking everything and I can't benefit from side/back attacks which is a huge dps loss. Please fix this.

[Linken.6345]

@Shiyo.3578 said:This is an issue open world and strikes. I'm constantly tanking everything and I can't benefit from side/back attacks which is a huge dps loss. Please fix this.

switch pet?

[Dadnir.5038]

@Linken.6345 said:

@Shiyo.3578 said:This is an issue open world and strikes. I'm constantly tanking everything and I can't benefit from side/back attacks which is a huge dps loss. Please fix this.

switch pet?

He most likely have an issue with pack alpha (trait that grant 150 power/condi/preci/tough/vit when merged) not the pet in itself.

[Linken.6345]

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Linken.6345 said:

@Shiyo.3578 said:This is an issue open world and strikes. I'm constantly tanking everything and I can't benefit from side/back attacks which is a huge dps loss. Please fix this.

switch pet?

He most likely have an issue with

pack alpha

(trait that grant 150 power/condi/preci/tough/vit when merged) not the pet in itself.

Oh forgot about that one.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

Toughness wasn't removed from those classes due to raids, but because they could stack it too high.

If your tank's trying so hard to be glass that other players get targetted, that's the problem with the tank and the group, not something that deserves a class nerf through the entire game. These are some of the ideas that brought us to where we are.

[Delita Silverburg.8632]

@Hannelore.8153 said:Toughness wasn't removed from those classes due to raids, but because they could stack it too high.

If your tank's trying so hard to be glass that other players get targetted, that's the problem with the tank and the group, not something that deserves a class nerf through the entire game. These are some of the ideas that brought us to where we are.

If that were true, then tell me why the devs would give the elementalist a 7% damage reduction in place of the 150 toughness making it function in the exact same way across all game modes EXCEPT where the actual toughness value itself impacts play? Might want to research a little bit more before you start making baseless claims because you aren't a fan of raiders who want to phase the boss faster with higher dps. We spend a considerable amount of time calculating every little thing in the game before we make claims in the forums.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

@Delita Silverburg.8632 said:

@Hannelore.8153 said:Toughness wasn't removed from those classes due to raids, but because they could stack it too high.

If your tank's trying so hard to be glass that other players get targetted, that's the problem with the tank and the group, not something that deserves a class nerf through the entire game. These are some of the ideas that brought us to where we are.

If that were true, then tell me why the devs would give the elementalist a 7% damage reduction in place of the 150 toughness making it function in the exact same way across all game modes EXCEPT where the actual toughness value itself impacts play? Might want to research a little bit more before you start making baseless claims because you aren't a fan of raiders who want to phase the boss faster with higher dps. We spend a considerable amount of time calculating every little thing in the game before we make claims in the forums.

Because just removing it would've created cries from the player base. You contradict yourself, btw, specifically pointing out that the change was to make it function the same across all game modes, while singling out PvE.

[Shiyo.3578]

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Linken.6345 said:

@Shiyo.3578 said:This is an issue open world and strikes. I'm constantly tanking everything and I can't benefit from side/back attacks which is a huge dps loss. Please fix this.

switch pet?

He most likely have an issue with

pack alpha

(trait that grant 150 power/condi/preci/tough/vit when merged) not the pet in itself.

Yes. That trait line is BiS for dps but I need to flank for max dps, however I have to tank everything so I can never flank. It sucks.

[Thornwolf.9721]

Merge toughness and vitality into one stat? Call it Grit or something. Then that means vitality and toughness can be replaced and those stat sets that have them both or one of them on a piece can be replaced with other stuff? (And some more stat sets could go entirely without them.)

[Dadnir.5038]

@Delita Silverburg.8632 said:If that were true, then tell me why the devs would give the elementalist a 7% damage reduction in place of the 150 toughness making it function in the exact same way across all game modes EXCEPT where the actual toughness value itself impacts play? Might want to research a little bit more before you start making baseless claims because you aren't a fan of raiders who want to phase the boss faster with higher dps. We spend a considerable amount of time calculating every little thing in the game before we make claims in the forums.

Because even with this change the elementalist can still stack more toughness than all other professions thanks to earth scepter#2, earth signet and conjure earth shield (for a total of 610 toughness at will). Which mean that if they want to stack toughness to tank they got no issue building it. For reference, the soulbeast with SoS and merged with a tank pet can only reach 530 extra toughness), which mean that an elementalist with the exact same gear can still out-toughness a merged slb.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Delita Silverburg.8632 said:We should be able to run a tank with 1005T without having to pander to 1 archetype. Period.You should be flexible enough to not be locked into one setup to the point where a very slight deviation from it (with easily available solution) becomes a massive problem to you.

[Icetea.3204]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Delita Silverburg.8632 said:We should be able to run a tank with 1005T without having to pander to 1 archetype. Period.You should be flexible enough to not be locked into one setup to the point where a very slight deviation from it (with easily available solution) becomes a massive problem to you.

Its not necessarily about being flexible enough. Pretty sure most people here can get over 1150 toughness if they want. Even without changing your gear you can simply use a single infusion and the Karka tonic. It's just very annoying because you can't activate one in Raids. Honestly, you shouldn't be forced to take any toughness if you dont want to. With almost every support being able to deal a lot of damage, toughness is just a useless and wasted Stat. Just give bosses like vg and gorseval a tank mark like SH does.

[yann.1946]

@Icetea.3204 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Delita Silverburg.8632 said:We should be able to run a tank with 1005T without having to pander to 1 archetype. Period.You should be flexible enough to not be locked into one setup to the point where a very slight deviation from it (with easily available solution) becomes a massive problem to you.

Its not necessarily about being flexible enough. Pretty sure most people here can get over 1150 toughness if they want. Even without changing your gear you can simply use a single infusion and the Karka tonic. It's just very annoying because you can't activate one in Raids. Honestly, you shouldn't be forced to take any toughness if you dont want to. With almost every support being able to deal a lot of damage, toughness is just a useless and wasted Stat. Just give bosses like vg and gorseval a tank mark like SH does.

I actually disagree quite strongly with this. Variety is the spice of life and having different ranking mechanisms is quite interesting.

[LadyKitty.6120]

Kitty can't quite see why everyone all the time make toughness tanking such an issue. Yeah, it may need a gear swap but it takes 6 key/mouse presses at max to out-toughness the soulbeasts. If you've already min-maxed to the point where you think it becomes an issue, you've most likely done fractals for enough pristines to buy 2 cavalier/knight's rings. Problem solved. (Cavalier rings are a whole 42 power lost if you already slightly overcap critrate and that obviously means that tryhard dpsing tanks lose their meaning of life.)And if you can't do that, ask the soulbeast to use Marksmanship instead of Beastmastery. But that may be a lot bigger dps loss so that tank can greed a tiny bit more. Good trade, eh?If that tiny bit of toughness makes it a kill-or-wipe situation, it could've as well been saved by minimal bit tighter gameplay and if it's a boon dps tanking, just the variables of the boss attempt make a bigger difference. If the squad is already guarateedly killing the boss, it's a "but numbers!" - type an issue. Yush, Kitty gets it. People like to skip the mechanics and then whine about lack of difficulty. Toughness tanking is a mech.

Apologies if Kitty blew up peoples' snarkasm radars.