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How much DPS is "enough"?


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I just wanted to comment here to ask how would you determine this if you had a little bit of latency/ping? (let’s just say in the 300-400ms range)

Just getting up to 80% of a benchmark is actually a struggle (save for the ping-friendly ones, though it’s unclear which specs fall under this category anymore), and I don’t think would be appropriate to assume that other similarly affected people would be able to achieve this normally (i.e. people who don’t mash buttons to queue skills). However, I seem to be keeping up more than OK with a lot of other people I see, but I don’t know or can’t see how benchmark % translates in this case.

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@"uberkingkong.8041" said:How are you finding your dps? How do you turn it on?

Funny thing, everybody on forums "its ok to do this amount"Everybody in game "kick that guy, he is the issue, look at his dps"

There is no built-in dps meter. Players use third-party software called arcdps. And while I in no way condone players sniping at each other over dps, I haven't personally found this to be in issue in T4 fractals as long as I avoid runs that specifically ask for experienced players.

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@Arcaniaxs.4519 said:

@sitarskee.5738 said:I run t1, t2 and t3 fractals daily and people average 3-5k dps, once in 20 games there will be this 17k-ish dude. Even with this low dps, fracs up to t3 are fairly easy and fast.

Wait untill u meet the ppl in fractal CMs doing 75k dps openings and hold 30k dps lolAlthough 17k dps is decent imo too

Kind of confusing.3-5k dps is average but 17k dps is decent

So the average player does not do decent dps then?

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@uberkingkong.8041 said:

@sitarskee.5738 said:I run t1, t2 and t3 fractals daily and people average 3-5k dps, once in 20 games there will be this 17k-ish dude. Even with this low dps, fracs up to t3 are fairly easy and fast.

Wait untill u meet the ppl in fractal CMs doing 75k dps openings and hold 30k dps lolAlthough 17k dps is decent imo too

Kind of confusing.3-5k dps is average but 17k dps is decent

So the average player does not do decent dps then?

I believe the point is that the disparity between experienced players running dps meta builds and inexperienced players running whatever feels good is potentially massive.

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@uberkingkong.8041 said:

@sitarskee.5738 said:I run t1, t2 and t3 fractals daily and people average 3-5k dps, once in 20 games there will be this 17k-ish dude. Even with this low dps, fracs up to t3 are fairly easy and fast.

Wait untill u meet the ppl in fractal CMs doing 75k dps openings and hold 30k dps lolAlthough 17k dps is decent imo too

Kind of confusing.3-5k dps is average but 17k dps is decent

So the average player does not do decent dps then?

Aw no. Sry if i said it bad. I mean meta specs at full potential do alotta dmg in fractals considering the buffs u can apply on them and debuffs on the boss.A average player can do decent dps (if its a dps build of course). Im just saying more experienced+very efficient build(meta build) results in amazing dps. But u sure can do it however u like. Its a game anyways ppl wanna have fun with watever they like :P

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@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@sitarskee.5738 said:I run t1, t2 and t3 fractals daily and people average 3-5k dps, once in 20 games there will be this 17k-ish dude. Even with this low dps, fracs up to t3 are fairly easy and fast.

Wait untill u meet the ppl in fractal CMs doing 75k dps openings and hold 30k dps lolAlthough 17k dps is decent imo too

Kind of confusing.3-5k dps is average but 17k dps is decent

So the average player does not do decent dps then?

I believe the point is that the disparity between experienced players running dps meta builds and inexperienced players running whatever feels good is potentially massive.

Not very very massive but basically yes. Both ways work anyways.

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@Arcaniaxs.4519 said:

@sitarskee.5738 said:I run t1, t2 and t3 fractals daily and people average 3-5k dps, once in 20 games there will be this 17k-ish dude. Even with this low dps, fracs up to t3 are fairly easy and fast.

Wait untill u meet the ppl in fractal CMs doing 75k dps openings and hold 30k dps lolAlthough 17k dps is decent imo too

Kind of confusing.3-5k dps is average but 17k dps is decent

So the average player does not do decent dps then?

I believe the point is that the disparity between experienced players running dps meta builds and inexperienced players running whatever feels good is potentially massive.

Not very very massive but basically yes. Both ways work anyways.

So 1 person doing the damage of 10-15 others is not a massive damage increase?I think it is.

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@Arcaniaxs.4519 said:

@sitarskee.5738 said:I run t1, t2 and t3 fractals daily and people average 3-5k dps, once in 20 games there will be this 17k-ish dude. Even with this low dps, fracs up to t3 are fairly easy and fast.

Wait untill u meet the ppl in fractal CMs doing 75k dps openings and hold 30k dps lolAlthough 17k dps is decent imo too

Kind of confusing.3-5k dps is average but 17k dps is decent

So the average player does not do decent dps then?

I believe the point is that the disparity between experienced players running dps meta builds and inexperienced players running whatever feels good is potentially massive.

Not very very massive but basically yes. Both ways work anyways.

It depends on the player, the build, and the scenario. But even in open world I see this routinely where 2 or 3 players are responsible for more than half the damage of a full squad.

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@uberkingkong.8041 said:

@sitarskee.5738 said:I run t1, t2 and t3 fractals daily and people average 3-5k dps, once in 20 games there will be this 17k-ish dude. Even with this low dps, fracs up to t3 are fairly easy and fast.

Wait untill u meet the ppl in fractal CMs doing 75k dps openings and hold 30k dps lolAlthough 17k dps is decent imo too

Kind of confusing.3-5k dps is average but 17k dps is decent

So the average player does not do decent dps then?

No. The average player barely breaks 10K DPS. The 3-5K is barely auto attacking.

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@uberkingkong.8041 said:

@sitarskee.5738 said:I run t1, t2 and t3 fractals daily and people average 3-5k dps, once in 20 games there will be this 17k-ish dude. Even with this low dps, fracs up to t3 are fairly easy and fast.

Wait untill u meet the ppl in fractal CMs doing 75k dps openings and hold 30k dps lolAlthough 17k dps is decent imo too

Kind of confusing.3-5k dps is average but 17k dps is decent

So the average player does not do decent dps then?Yes. According to the devs themselves, the the top player dps is around 10x higher than those of an
average
player (yes, average, not bottom tier). It is a massive gap. As a consequence, in any content where dps matters at all, you need to be doing well above the average dps.

@Ayrilana.1396 said:No. The average player barely breaks 10K DPS. The 3-5K is barely auto attacking.

3-5k is autoattacking range, yes, but only if you are running a meta build. An average player is
not
running one. If you look at a squad dps in any open world event, you can often see that, even in a full, 50-man squad, 4-5k is easily enough to put your dps in the shown top ten range.
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There was a wonderful website called GW2Raidar in the game where players uploaded their Raid logs. You could see there that the "How much dps is enough?" question really has no answer because it depends heavily on the boss.

@Astralporing.1957 said:3-5k is autoattacking range, yes, but only if you are running a meta build. An average player is not running one. If you look at a squad dps in any open world event, you can often see that, even in a full, 50-man squad, 4-5k is easily enough to put your dps in the shown top ten range.

To be fair, when you check a squad dps in an open world event it includes players that are barely playing the game. Is their dps low because they have a terrible build, because they don't know how to play or because they are semi-afk and hardly participate in the event?

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@sitarskee.5738 said:I run t1, t2 and t3 fractals daily and people average 3-5k dps, once in 20 games there will be this 17k-ish dude. Even with this low dps, fracs up to t3 are fairly easy and fast.

Wait untill u meet the ppl in fractal CMs doing 75k dps openings and hold 30k dps lolAlthough 17k dps is decent imo too

Kind of confusing.3-5k dps is average but 17k dps is decent

So the average player does not do decent dps then?Yes. According to the devs themselves, the the top player dps is around 10x higher than those of an
average
player (yes, average, not bottom tier). It is a massive gap. As a consequence, in any content where dps matters at all, you need to be doing well above the average dps.

@"Ayrilana.1396" said:No. The average player barely breaks 10K DPS. The 3-5K is barely auto attacking.

3-5k is autoattacking range, yes, but only if you are running a meta build. An average player is
not
running one. If you look at a squad dps in any open world event, you can often see that, even in a full, 50-man squad, 4-5k is easily enough to put your dps in the shown top ten range.

Heh, looks like people haven't actually tested auto-attacks much. But Kitty did some auto-attack benching 2 years ago and here's to give some clue about what some ascended geared builds did with pure 11111 (and we've powercrept 15% since then) : https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DhydH7lgZWUtywqmRK0VecutWTlvZ27fQufl1u-dgOw/edit?usp=drivesdkE: Guess Kitty could make updated ones.

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@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@"uberkingkong.8041" said:How are you finding your dps? How do you turn it on?

Funny thing, everybody on forums "its ok to do this amount"Everybody in game "kick that guy, he is the issue, look at his dps"

There is no built-in dps meter. Players use third-party software called arcdps. And while I in no way condone players sniping at each other over dps, I haven't personally found this to be in issue in T4 fractals as long as I avoid runs that specifically ask for experienced players.

2k-5k is enough anyone saying otherwise is toxic( not uncommon thinking) just play the build you like dont need to listen to anyone forcing you to play something you dont want to

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@"LadyKitty.6120" said:Heh, looks like people haven't actually tested auto-attacks much. But Kitty did some auto-attack benching 2 years ago and here's to give some clue about what some ascended geared builds did with pure 11111 (and we've powercrept 15% since then) : https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DhydH7lgZWUtywqmRK0VecutWTlvZ27fQufl1u-dgOw/edit?usp=drivesdkE: Guess Kitty could make updated ones.

That's some very exciting information, it's good to have actual data in discussions like this because everyone makes assumptions and posts random, unsupported claims. If I read that correctly (even without the power creep) and comparing your AA results with the current Snowcrows results, simply auto-attacking with a meta build provides about half the dps of using full rotations on a lot of builds. Which in most cases, even on the hardest Raid bosses, is more than enough to beat them, since with the old GW2Raidar information, teams succeeded with 1/4th the top DPS.

That's some interesting food for thought. It both shows the really low DPS required to beat bosses and at the same time how horrible this community is at playing this game if they can barely do 25% of the damage you can do just by auto-attacking!

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@Noodle Ant.1605 said:I just wanted to comment here to ask how would you determine this if you had a little bit of latency/ping? (let’s just say in the 300-400ms range)

Just getting up to 80% of a benchmark is actually a struggle (save for the ping-friendly ones, though it’s unclear which specs fall under this category anymore), and I don’t think would be appropriate to assume that other similarly affected people would be able to achieve this normally (i.e. people who don’t mash buttons to queue skills). However, I seem to be keeping up more than OK with a lot of other people I see, but I don’t know or can’t see how benchmark % translates in this case.

Pretty certain you can still achieve 80% bench on most things with that ping. However in some actual fights it might be difficult due to being impacted by mechanics etc. I play with 70-150 ms (~100 average with spikes let's say), and I'd say 80% should be doable with 300. Better if you can fix it ofc.

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@Antioche.7034 said:

@Noodle Ant.1605 said:I just wanted to comment here to ask how would you determine this if you had a little bit of latency/ping? (let’s just say in the 300-400ms range)

Just getting up to 80% of a benchmark is actually a struggle (save for the ping-friendly ones, though it’s unclear which specs fall under this category anymore), and I don’t think would be appropriate to assume that other similarly affected people would be able to achieve this normally (i.e. people who don’t mash buttons to queue skills). However, I seem to be keeping up more than OK with a lot of other people I see, but I don’t know or can’t see how benchmark % translates in this case.

Pretty certain you can still achieve 80% bench on most things with that ping. However in some actual fights it might be difficult due to being impacted by mechanics etc. I play with 70-150 ms (~100 average with spikes let's say), and I'd say 80% should be doable with 300. Better if you can fix it ofc.

I feel like 80% is within the upper limit (you could probably push up to 90% with ‘ping-friendly’ specs but then again, we don’t know what they are). It’s doable, but when people are claiming that 80% is what should be achieved, it becomes a bit disingenuous, no? Perhaps a better question to ask is: if I know that I suffer from this problem (geographical location is not something I can easily fix), is it acceptable for me to aim for a lower standard?

I’m guess fortunate that I’m able to reach 80% myself, but that ‘80%’ for someone else with a similar problem could possibly look like 65-70%, which otherwise I feel many people here would consider ‘not enough’.

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@"maddoctor.2738" said:There was a wonderful website called GW2Raidar in the game where players uploaded their Raid logs. You could see there that the "How much dps is enough?" question really has no answer because it depends heavily on the boss.

@"Astralporing.1957" said:3-5k is autoattacking range, yes, but only if you are running a meta build. An average player is
not
running one. If you look at a squad dps in any open world event, you can often see that, even in a full, 50-man squad, 4-5k is easily enough to put your dps in the shown top ten range.

To be fair, when you check a squad dps in an open world event it includes players that are barely playing the game. Is their dps low because they have a terrible build, because they don't know how to play or because they are semi-afk and hardly participate in the event?I know how high was my damage when i was still running my original "build", in times before HoT. I knew that the build i had carefully made for myself would not have a top tier dps - it was a bunker build after all. I was completely unaware, though, how low the actual dps was before i installed Arc for the first time and checked it out. When i saw the actual numbers, it was the first time i became aware how high the dps gap actually is.

Frankly, in open world situation, so, without access to the full complement of boons, 4k would be at the upper tier of what i might have been able to reach with that build. Now, consider someone that didn't even bother to think about their build at all. They might do even worse than that. So, i am quite sure that a lot of the 3-4k players on that squad dps list aren't actually semi-afk, and possibly might even truly believe they are the ones contributing a lot.

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So, Kitty started her auto-attack benchmark project and she's now got power rev and power thief covered in full (though ofc she's wearing full ascended with runes and stuff but still gives some idea...): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1jWo6tEifUD6iF1RmBX3LZ7VJJ0szK9XWk2BfL0YPIY8/

And ofc if anyone feels like Kitty's cheating or something, she streamed most of testing this far and they're watchable to see the exact test setup and stuff.

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@Day Trooper.3605 said:Quick question all, and forgive my complete ignorance as I’ve never used a dps meter before. When you say dps, that does mean ‘damage per second’ right? If so, some folks can really do 35k damage each second?

As a follow-up, what is decent mesmer dps?

Yes, although that is either a short burst, from cleave damage, or with group buffs. Still, you can hit some pretty decent numbers solo with the right build, too. My open world build can stack burning to the point it ticks for 20-25k per second, sometimes even breaking 30k peak! That's solo single-target, so with group buffs I can go higher (e.g. hit 40k peak on Subject 6 while doing my fractal recs a little bit ago).

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@Day Trooper.3605 said:Quick question all, and forgive my complete ignorance as I’ve never used a dps meter before. When you say dps, that does mean ‘damage per second’ right? If so, some folks can really do 35k damage each second?

As a follow-up, what is decent mesmer dps?

Yes 35k each second over a 2min fight. Much higher in shorter fights. In fact some classes can have 80-140k phase dps in fractals. Thats how you get your 3sec phases.Good chronomancer dps would be 39k+ on golem while decent would be 34k+. Condi mirage needs confusion to do damage so you cant really test the dps on golem. Average confusion stacks matter there.

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@Noodle Ant.1605 said:

@Noodle Ant.1605 said:I just wanted to comment here to ask how would you determine this if you had a little bit of latency/ping? (let’s just say in the 300-400ms range)

Just getting up to 80% of a benchmark is actually a struggle (save for the ping-friendly ones, though it’s unclear which specs fall under this category anymore), and I don’t think would be appropriate to assume that other similarly affected people would be able to achieve this normally (i.e. people who don’t mash buttons to queue skills). However, I seem to be keeping up more than OK with a lot of other people I see, but I don’t know or can’t see how benchmark % translates in this case.

Pretty certain you can still achieve 80% bench on most things with that ping. However in some actual fights it might be difficult due to being impacted by mechanics etc. I play with 70-150 ms (~100 average with spikes let's say), and I'd say 80% should be doable with 300. Better if you can fix it ofc.

I feel like 80% is within the upper limit (you could probably push up to 90% with ‘ping-friendly’ specs but then again, we don’t know what they are). It’s
doable
, but when people are claiming that 80% is what
should be achieved
, it becomes a bit disingenuous, no? Perhaps a better question to ask is: if I know that I suffer from this problem (geographical location is not something I can easily fix), is it acceptable for me to aim for a lower standard?

I’m guess fortunate that I’m able to reach 80% myself, but that ‘80%’ for someone else with a similar problem could possibly look like 65-70%, which otherwise I feel many people here would consider ‘not enough’.

With >20 FPS and <200 ms ping, I think you should be able to achieve 80% on pretty much all the specs. Of course if you are playing with 5-10 FPS or >500 ms you'll have troubles, but at that point you'll pretty much be weighting your group down regardless of DPS, not to mention how tilting it must be to play in such conditions.

All of this is kinda out-of-thread aswell I suppose.

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@Laila Lightness.8742 said:

@"uberkingkong.8041" said:How are you finding your dps? How do you turn it on?

Funny thing, everybody on forums "its ok to do this amount"Everybody in game "kick that guy, he is the issue, look at his dps"

There is no built-in dps meter. Players use third-party software called arcdps. And while I in no way condone players sniping at each other over dps, I haven't personally found this to be in issue in T4 fractals as long as I avoid runs that specifically ask for experienced players.

2k-5k is enough anyone saying otherwise is toxic( not uncommon thinking) just play the build you like dont need to listen to anyone forcing you to play something you dont want to

Yes, if you want to spend 20 hours doing a raid fullclear and three hours doing CMs + T4s + Recs in fractals. And probably one or two hours for strikes. Have fun. Do whatever you want, aslong as you stay out of groups that are asking for experience or efforts, thank you. If you join such groups, yes, you do need to listen, and you are the one being toxic by imposing your game standards to the group.

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@Antioche.7034 said:

@"uberkingkong.8041" said:How are you finding your dps? How do you turn it on?

Funny thing, everybody on forums "its ok to do this amount"Everybody in game "kick that guy, he is the issue, look at his dps"

There is no built-in dps meter. Players use third-party software called arcdps. And while I in no way condone players sniping at each other over dps, I haven't personally found this to be in issue in T4 fractals as long as I avoid runs that specifically ask for experienced players.

2k-5k is enough anyone saying otherwise is toxic( not uncommon thinking) just play the build you like dont need to listen to anyone forcing you to play something you dont want to

Yes, if you want to spend 20 hours doing a raid fullclear and three hours doing CMs + T4s + Recs in fractals. And probably one or two hours for strikes. Have fun. Do whatever you want, aslong as you stay out of groups that are asking for experience or efforts, thank you. If you join such groups, yes, you do need to listen, and you are the one being toxic by imposing your game standards to the group.

Toxicity aside, coordinating the right strategy is important and that strategy changes based in large part upon the DPS output of the group. I had a group the other day where we wiped a few times on Subject 6 on T4 because there was confusion about which strategy we were using (And some of it was me! Sorry, guys!). Once we were on the same page, however, it was no problem. Subject 6 is a good example of a fight where dps matters and your strategy changes depending upon that. I imagine this would be a very difficult (maybe even impossible?) fight if your damage dealers only bring 2-5k dps to the fight.

Still, that doesn't mean there isn't room to go off the beaten path with your build. On that T4 Subject 6 kill my group were basically using a meta comp: healbrand, alacren, banner zerker, with power holo as the other dps. But I like to play the way I like to play as long as it isn't causing problems for the group, so I just ran my open world build which is sword/focus fire/arcane weaver with dire stats. We burned the boss in 15 seconds, killing it well before any oozes could come near. Damage breakdown was holo 37.8k, me at 32.5k, banner zerker at 28.1k. For reference, even the healer did 4.3k. As I said, the bigger problem was me botching up the strategy!

So, I think I have to agree with Antioche.7034 here, but I also think it's possible to play the way you want to play. You just need to be courteous of others. That means not just being polite in word, but also considering the reasonable expectations of others. If you can only manage 5k dps in a fractal, you really shouldn't be joining pickup groups for T4 fractals as dps. It's inconsiderate.

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