I wish support classes were better balanced for end game content

[Noe.8032]

It's so annoying to see how even though engineer, revenant and necromancer all have viable healing builds, most groups will specify that they only want a firebrand or druid. Just really sucks that the support classes are so unbalanced so that firebrand and druid are pretty much the only meta. There's almost never any specifications for damage classes because for the most part every class has a decent damage build, but even though there are nine classes in the game only two are support meta. Yet as said; engineer, revenant and necromancer have healing builds while thief and mesmer have fragments of them.

Doesn't seem like much effort has been put into balancing the support meta so that each support class brings a unique benefit which makes them all similarly appealing in end game content.

[Solanum.6983]

Maybe with the expansion some of the classes will finally get elite specializations that look into those roles they lack in. I'd assume so anyway.

[Mewcifer.5198]

It is very frustrating how you have two supports that can output both more than enough heals and good offensive boons.

Them being able to give the boons while the others really can't is what makes them meta. Just being able to heal just isn't good enough in the end game. Making the options very limited.

[Kuma.1503]

If not for Druid giving out 25 might on it's own, Heal tempest may have had a niche, but alas.

[Laila Lightness.8742]

@Kuma.1503 said:If not for Druid giving out 25 might on it's own, Heal tempest may have had a niche, but alas.

Without that might druid would be gone from end game as its heals are weak spirit is not as good as tempest heal and dmg

[Asum.4960]

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:

@Kuma.1503 said:If not for Druid giving out 25 might on it's own, Heal tempest may have had a niche, but alas.

Without that might druid would be gone from end game as its heals are weak spirit is not as good as tempest heal and dmg

I would prefer Druids Heal output being buffed (or every other Support being brought down, further incentivizing running double supports) over being stuck forever and ever with Druid being the only viable solo heal.

Spirits and Spotter (among other unique per boss Utility) already give it it's spot as most uniquely offensive Support and requiring a second Might Stacker/Support would open up the way for Tempest, Firebrand, Scrapper, Scourge (at least if it's Might stacking capabilities are buffed) etc. a lot, making them a lot more viable choices over always just running a Druid.

Damage is already creeped by so much, I don't think 10 man Supports should be a thing personally, especially if there's really just one choice for it.Just like what Chronos used to be for Boon supports, having one class/spec being the only viable choice for a role for years just gets boring, and design wise no other support will ever compete with Druid unless it essentially does the same exact thing with 10 Man Might, Heals + Spotter and Spirit equivalent.5 Man supports open up so much comp customisation depending on sub group needs, but as long as there is a 10 Man support doing it all on top of providing unique buffs, we are forever stuck with that.

[Laila Lightness.8742]

@Asum.4960 said:

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:

@Kuma.1503 said:If not for Druid giving out 25 might on it's own, Heal tempest may have had a niche, but alas.

Without that might druid would be gone from end game as its heals are weak spirit is not as good as tempest heal and dmg

I would prefer Druids Heal output being buffed (or every other Support being brought down, further incentivizing running double supports) over being stuck forever and ever with Druid being the only viable solo heal.

Spirits and Spotter (among other unique per boss Utility) already give it it's spot as most uniquely offensive Support and requiring a second Might Stacker/Support would open up the way for Tempest, Firebrand, Scrapper, Scourge (at least if it's Might stacking capabilities are buffed) etc. a lot, making them a lot more viable choices over always just running a Druid.

Damage is already creeped by so much, I don't think 10 man Supports should be a thing personally, especially if there's really just one choice for it.Just like what Chronos used to be for Boon supports, having one class/spec being the only viable choice for a role for years just gets boring.

I would want spirit to be toned down maybe change their passive effect over to necro who needs it more. Ranger already got dps role it dont need to be healer. And no druid shouldnt get heal buffed it would just make bunker druid comeback. I rather want support to be moved to other classes like tempest,scourge and scrapper. I dont want druid viable as ranger can choose to be a dps now instead and it would be better over all that anet just let chrono druid meta fade away. I dont like unique buffs like frost spirit as it forces the skill in. Gotl can have swiftness instead of might

[Asum.4960]

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:

@Asum.4960 said:

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:

@"Kuma.1503" said:If not for Druid giving out 25 might on it's own, Heal tempest may have had a niche, but alas.

Without that might druid would be gone from end game as its heals are weak spirit is not as good as tempest heal and dmg

I would prefer Druids Heal output being buffed (or every other Support being brought down, further incentivizing running double supports) over being stuck forever and ever with Druid being the only viable solo heal.

Spirits and Spotter (among other unique per boss Utility) already give it it's spot as most uniquely offensive Support and requiring a second Might Stacker/Support would open up the way for Tempest, Firebrand, Scrapper, Scourge (at least if it's Might stacking capabilities are buffed) etc. a lot, making them a lot more viable choices over always just running a Druid.

Damage is already creeped by so much, I don't think 10 man Supports should be a thing personally, especially if there's really just one choice for it.Just like what Chronos used to be for Boon supports, having one class/spec being the only viable choice for a role for years just gets boring.

I would want spirit to be toned down maybe change their passive effect over to necro who needs it more.

Necro desperately needs something extra, I agree. Especially since Anet seems committed to never make it a top Tier DPS, Healer, Tank, Boon Support, anything - something to incentivize at least bringing one along could go a long way for diversity, and Vampiric Presence just ain't cutting it.

Ranger already got dps role it dont need to be healer.I dont want druid viable as ranger can choose to be a dps now instead and it would be better over all that anet just let chrono druid meta fade away.

I don't agree with that. Just like I don't want anyone who enjoys playing main healer but just happens to not like Druid to be screwed, I also don't want those who do enjoy Druid to be screwed. More class/spec diversity is always a good thing, and viability doesn't need to be "exchanged".Anet always does this (ex. nerfing condi Reaper to "make room" for Scourge, just leading to Reaper having a dead Grandmaster for years to come, and neither Reaper nor Scourge being a sufficiently powerful cDPS for years).It's great to have one profession be viable as Healer and DPS, or hell, even having two different viable Specs for the same role, leaving it to player preference.Player choice is king for longevity.

And no druid shouldnt get heal buffed it would just make bunker druid comeback.

Heal buffs could obviously be split to be PvE only (although I personally think supports are too powerful to begin with).

I rather want support to be moved to other classes like tempest,scourge and scrapper. I dont like unique buffs like frost spirit as it forces the skill in. Gotl can have swiftness instead of might

I'm not a huge fan of unique buffs either, especially if there is no parity between Professions. Otherwise they could provide unique choices for different on par comps.But as it is we just have specific meta roles like 10 man Might Stacker and Healer, filled by really only one Spec of one Profession, on top of that one profession having unique buffs for which no one else can provide something on par.

That's how we get stuck with always playing with/as one and the same thing for years.So either other specs need unique on par buffs, or they need to be phased out completely. Same with 10 man target caps. They might be fine for niche use skills like Stand Your Ground (although I'm not 100% sold on that either), but not as whole role defining constant thing like Might stacking.

Overall though, I still want Druid to be a viable choice, I just don't want it to be the only choice.

[Galmac.4680]

For me I can't get into my head, that a necromancer is supportive. Someone who deals with the dead, with conditions (even that he can't do really good). And then called scourge.

[Laila Lightness.8742]

@Asum.4960 said:

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:

@Asum.4960 said:

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:

@"Kuma.1503" said:If not for Druid giving out 25 might on it's own, Heal tempest may have had a niche, but alas.

Without that might druid would be gone from end game as its heals are weak spirit is not as good as tempest heal and dmg

I would prefer Druids Heal output being buffed (or every other Support being brought down, further incentivizing running double supports) over being stuck forever and ever with Druid being the only viable solo heal.

Spirits and Spotter (among other unique per boss Utility) already give it it's spot as most uniquely offensive Support and requiring a second Might Stacker/Support would open up the way for Tempest, Firebrand, Scrapper, Scourge (at least if it's Might stacking capabilities are buffed) etc. a lot, making them a lot more viable choices over always just running a Druid.

Damage is already creeped by so much, I don't think 10 man Supports should be a thing personally, especially if there's really just one choice for it.Just like what Chronos used to be for Boon supports, having one class/spec being the only viable choice for a role for years just gets boring.

I would want spirit to be toned down maybe change their passive effect over to necro who needs it more.

Necro desperately needs something extra, I agree. Especially since Anet seems committed to never make it a top Tier DPS, Healer, Tank, Boon Support, anything - something to incentivize at least bringing one along could go a long way for diversity, and Vampiric Presence just ain't cutting it.

Ranger already got dps role it dont need to be healer.I dont want druid viable as ranger can choose to be a dps now instead and it would be better over all that anet just let chrono druid meta fade away.

I don't agree with that. Just like I don't want anyone who enjoys playing support but just happens to not like Druid to be screwed, I also don't want those who do enjoy Druid to be screwed. More class/spec diversity is always a good thing, and viability doesn't need to be "exchanged".Anet always does this (ex. nerfing condi Reaper to "make room" for Scourge, just leading to Reaper having a dead Grandmaster for years to come, and neither Reaper nor Scourge being a sufficiently powerful cDPS for years).It's great to have one profession be viable as Healer and DPS, or hell, even having two different viable Specs for the same role, leaving it to player preference.Player choice is king for longevity.

And no druid shouldnt get heal buffed it would just make bunker druid comeback.

Heal buffs could obviously be split to be PvE only (although I personally think supports are too powerful to begin with).

I rather want support to be moved to other classes like tempest,scourge and scrapper. I dont like unique buffs like frost spirit as it forces the skill in. Gotl can have swiftness instead of might

I'm not a huge fan of unique buffs either, especially if there is no parity between Professions. Otherwise they could provide unique choices for different on par comps.But as it is we just have specific meta roles like 10 man Might Stacker and Healer, filled by really only one Spec of one Profession, on top of that one profession having unique buffs for which no one else can provide something on par.

That's how we get stuck with always playing with/as one and the same thing for years.So either other specs need unique on par buffs, or they need to be phased out completely. Same with 10 man target caps. They might be fine for niche use skills like Stand Your Ground (although I'm not 100% sold on that either), but not as whole role defining constant thing like Might stacking.

Overall though, I still want Druid to be a viable choice, I just don't want it to be the only choice.

I dont like 100% upkeep idea either as it encourages reliance on others boons . Everyone should be contributing to buffing

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

@Aisling.5901 said:It's so annoying to see how even though engineer, revenant and necromancer all have viable healing builds, most groups will specify that they only want a firebrand or druid. Just really sucks that the support classes are so unbalanced so that firebrand and druid are pretty much the only meta. There's almost never any specifications for damage classes because for the most part every class has a decent damage build, but even though there are nine classes in the game only two are support meta. Yet as said; engineer, revenant and necromancer have healing builds while thief and mesmer have fragments of them.

Doesn't seem like much effort has been put into balancing the support meta so that each support class brings a unique benefit which makes them all similarly appealing in end game content.

If all classes have a support build that is equal in terms of boon and heal output, it's kinda pointless even having different classes, since they would all be the same.

No balancing is needed, player adaptation is needed to simply use the builds that work for particular encounters. That said, more build diversity is always better.

There is already a LOT of diversity when it comes to support builds, the problem is not the builds, it's the players who refuse to accept them. Not just that, but (I assume you are talking about PvE) there are many encounters where condi removal is not required on a large scale, this means that whileEngineer support is awesome in WvW where there are a lot of targets, one of its main strengths is condition removal and that is just not required in 99% of PvE encounters. Same goes for D/F Auramancer. Or Shout Warrior. Necro is also excellent in WvW but nobody uses it there either, Transfusion is one of the best support traits in the game, if not THE best. Necro as an off-healer is a hard carry in all content, Marshalls stats and it can do respectable damage at the same time.

Not every class can be equal. Why not just play a different class?

[Asum.4960]

@Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

@"Aisling.5901" said:It's so annoying to see how even though engineer, revenant and necromancer all have viable healing builds, most groups will specify that they only want a firebrand or druid. Just really sucks that the support classes are so unbalanced so that firebrand and druid are pretty much the only meta. There's almost never any specifications for damage classes because for the most part every class has a decent damage build, but even though there are nine classes in the game only two are support meta. Yet as said; engineer, revenant and necromancer have healing builds while thief and mesmer have fragments of them.

Doesn't seem like much effort has been put into balancing the support meta so that each support class brings a unique benefit which makes them all similarly appealing in end game content.

If all classes have a support build that is equal in terms of boon and heal output, it's kinda pointless even having different classes, since they would all be the same.

No balancing is needed, player adaptation is needed to simply use the builds that work for particular encounters. That said, more build diversity is always better.

There is already a LOT of diversity when it comes to support builds, the problem is not the builds, it's the players who refuse to accept them. Not just that, but (I assume you are talking about PvE) there are many encounters where condi removal is not required on a large scale, this means that whileEngineer support is awesome in WvW where there are a lot of targets, one of its main strengths is condition removal and that is just not required in 99% of PvE encounters. Same goes for D/F Auramancer. Or Shout Warrior. Necro is also excellent in WvW but nobody uses it there either, Transfusion is one of the best support traits in the game, if not THE best. Necro as an off-healer is a hard carry in all content, Marshalls stats and it can do respectable damage at the same time.

Not every class can be equal. Why not just play a different class?

It's not really about every Spec being able to do everything in pretty much the same way which yes isn't ideal either, but we are very far from that being an issue.Point is if you run one heal, it's 100% of the time going to be Druid.If you run a past training mostly unneeded offheal, sure there is more variety for that slot, but it's still going to be pretty much 100% of the time Druid + X.

It doesn't matter how many support builds there are if you technically only need one healer, and there is only one healer with 10 man Might stacking + heals, as well as being stacked with unique damage increasing buffs that no other 5 man support can compete with on top of that.

If Druid had the 10 man Might and Heals and let's say Scourge for example Spirits and Spotter like effects or vice versa, there could be a better case for diversity and taking both even in proficient groups, but as is Druid is the be all and end all Heal support for 10 man content, and has been for many stale years now.

Sure you can make running two 5 man healers/might stackers work, but why do that when one Spec can fill that role alone and get extra unique buffs like Spirits and Spotter on top of that and freeing a slot for another DPS? The tradeoff is just way too big, making it not really surprising that most players aren't particularly accepting of other builds over the more simple, better and tried and used to solution.

Then in 5 man content the problem torch is passed on from unique target caps and buffs to rather exclusive boons like Quickness and Alacrity.Ofc not every profession should be able to chose to provide any given buff or boon as that would feel rather samey, but the game could do with a lot more choice still imo.

In 10 man content though, currently there just isn't a choice for the Heal spot. Ideally you would ask yourself, do we want Spirit's and Spotter (Druid), Transfusion (Scourge), build in Quickness with our heal (Firebrand), etc.But only one can support and buff 10 people, so the answer is always get a Druid and those extra damage buffs, and every other support is overlooked unless getting shooed-in as mostly unnecessary "off-heal".

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

@Asum.4960 said:

@Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

@Aisling.5901 said:It's so annoying to see how even though engineer, revenant and necromancer all have viable healing builds, most groups will specify that they only want a firebrand or druid. Just really sucks that the support classes are so unbalanced so that firebrand and druid are pretty much the only meta. There's almost never any specifications for damage classes because for the most part every class has a decent damage build, but even though there are nine classes in the game only two are support meta. Yet as said; engineer, revenant and necromancer have healing builds while thief and mesmer have fragments of them.

Doesn't seem like much effort has been put into balancing the support meta so that each support class brings a unique benefit which makes them all similarly appealing in end game content.

If all classes have a support build that is equal in terms of boon and heal output, it's kinda pointless even having different classes, since they would all be the same.

No balancing is needed, player adaptation is needed to simply use the builds that work for particular encounters. That said, more build diversity is always better.

There is already a LOT of diversity when it comes to support builds, the problem is not the builds, it's the players who refuse to accept them. Not just that, but (I assume you are talking about PvE) there are many encounters where condi removal is not required on a large scale, this means that whileEngineer support is awesome in WvW where there are a lot of targets, one of its main strengths is condition removal and that is just not required in 99% of PvE encounters. Same goes for D/F Auramancer. Or Shout Warrior. Necro is also excellent in WvW but nobody uses it there either, Transfusion is one of the best support traits in the game, if not THE best. Necro as an off-healer is a hard carry in all content, Marshalls stats and it can do respectable damage at the same time.

Not every class can be equal. Why not just play a different class?

It's not really about every Spec being able to do everything in pretty much the same way which yes isn't ideal either, but we are very far from that being an issue.Point is if you run one heal, it's 100% of the time going to be Druid.If you run a past training mostly unneeded offheal, sure there is more variety for that slot, but it's still going to be pretty much 100% of the time Druid + X.

It doesn't matter how many support builds there are if you technically only need one healer, and there is only one healer with 10 man Might stacking + heals, as well as being stacked with unique damage increasing buffs that no other 5 man support can compete with on top of that.

If Druid had the 10 man Might and Heals and let's say Scourge for example Spirits and Spotter like effects or vice versa, there could be a better case for diversity and taking both even in proficient groups, but as is Druid is the be all and end all Heal support for 10 man content, and has been for many stale years now.

Sure you can make running two 5 man healers/might stackers work, but why do that when one Spec can fill that role alone and get extra unique buffs like Spirits and Spotter on top of that and freeing a slot for another DPS? The tradeoff is just way too big, making it not really surprising that most players aren't particularly accepting of other builds over the more simple, better and tried and used to solution.

Then in 5 man content the problem torch is passed on from unique target caps and buffs to rather exclusive boons like Quickness and Alacrity.Ofc not every profession should be able to chose to provide any given buff or boon as that would feel rather samey, but the game could do with a lot more choice still imo.

In 10 man content though, currently there just isn't a choice for the Heal spot. Ideally you would ask yourself, do we want Spirit's and Spotter (Druid), Transfusion (Scourge), build in Quickness with our heal (Firebrand), etc.But only one can support and buff 10 people, so the answer is always get a Druid and those extra damage buffs.

But one will always be better than the rest for some particular content, therefore, it will be preferred. If you make multiple classes as good as each other for that content, then they will need to be the same. Which is pointless.

For instance, Druid is not used in WvW like it is in PvE because there are better options for support. Spirits are not mobile enough and Druid has massive telegraphs. If you want to make something else as good as Druid for existing PvE content then you need to make something else have the same unique buffs, spotter, might stacking and healing options, otherwise Druid will still be better than the other options and therefore preferred.

A change in the content is what is needed, not a change to the other classes to make them as good as a Druid. This is just going to result in homogenous classes. There are already many good support builds as mentioned, but the PvE content does not require their strengths. Do not balance the classes around the content, balance the content around the classes.

Add encounters that favor different types of support. Require a lot of condition removal, areas/mechanics that need to be skipped with stealth or result in death, bosses like sloth (but faster and in a larger area) that move around a lot more so the effect of spirits are not as good because the boss will move out of range before the CD on the spirit teleport is up. Like the Leyline Anomaly, what good are spirits in that content? Useless. Along these lines, add a boss where you will need super speed to keep up with it. Or one that downs people regularly regardless of what you do. Or one that swaps positions and a portal from a mesmer is needed. Or one that eats people, but mesmer clones make it vulnerable or something.

[Linken.6345]

@Asum.4960 said:

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:

@Asum.4960 said:

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:

@"Kuma.1503" said:If not for Druid giving out 25 might on it's own, Heal tempest may have had a niche, but alas.

Without that might druid would be gone from end game as its heals are weak spirit is not as good as tempest heal and dmg

I would prefer Druids Heal output being buffed (or every other Support being brought down, further incentivizing running double supports) over being stuck forever and ever with Druid being the only viable solo heal.

Spirits and Spotter (among other unique per boss Utility) already give it it's spot as most uniquely offensive Support and requiring a second Might Stacker/Support would open up the way for Tempest, Firebrand, Scrapper, Scourge (at least if it's Might stacking capabilities are buffed) etc. a lot, making them a lot more viable choices over always just running a Druid.

Damage is already creeped by so much, I don't think 10 man Supports should be a thing personally, especially if there's really just one choice for it.Just like what Chronos used to be for Boon supports, having one class/spec being the only viable choice for a role for years just gets boring.

I would want spirit to be toned down maybe change their passive effect over to necro who needs it more.

Necro desperately needs something extra, I agree. Especially since Anet seems committed to never make it a top Tier DPS, Healer, Tank, Boon Support, anything - something to incentivize at least bringing one along could go a long way for diversity, and Vampiric Presence just ain't cutting it.

Ranger already got dps role it dont need to be healer.I dont want druid viable as ranger can choose to be a dps now instead and it would be better over all that anet just let chrono druid meta fade away.

I don't agree with that. Just like I don't want anyone who enjoys playing support but just happens to not like Druid to be screwed, I also don't want those who do enjoy Druid to be screwed. More class/spec diversity is always a good thing, and viability doesn't need to be "exchanged".Anet always does this (ex. nerfing condi Reaper to "make room" for Scourge, just leading to Reaper having a dead Grandmaster for years to come, and neither Reaper nor Scourge being a sufficiently powerful cDPS for years).It's great to have one profession be viable as Healer and DPS, or hell, even having two different viable Specs for the same role, leaving it to player preference.Player choice is king for longevity.

And no druid shouldnt get heal buffed it would just make bunker druid comeback.

Heal buffs could obviously be split to be PvE only (although I personally think supports are too powerful to begin with).

I rather want support to be moved to other classes like tempest,scourge and scrapper. I dont like unique buffs like frost spirit as it forces the skill in. Gotl can have swiftness instead of might

I'm not a huge fan of unique buffs either, especially if there is no parity between Professions. Otherwise they could provide unique choices for different on par comps.But as it is we just have specific meta roles like 10 man Might Stacker and Healer, filled by really only one Spec of one Profession, on top of that one profession having unique buffs for which no one else can provide something on par.

That's how we get stuck with always playing with/as one and the same thing for years.So either other specs need unique on par buffs, or they need to be phased out completely. Same with 10 man target caps. They might be fine for niche use skills like Stand Your Ground (although I'm not 100% sold on that either), but not as whole role defining constant thing like Might stacking.

Overall though, I still want Druid to be a viable choice, I just don't want it to be the only choice.

Cant agree with the 5 man might/spirts on druid not just becouse I play one but we had that before rememeber?And what did people take 2 druids so the change actualy helped getting diffrent support into the squads that play safe with 2 healers instead of 1.

[Asum.4960]

@Linken.6345 said:

@Asum.4960 said:

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:

@Asum.4960 said:

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:

@"Kuma.1503" said:If not for Druid giving out 25 might on it's own, Heal tempest may have had a niche, but alas.

Without that might druid would be gone from end game as its heals are weak spirit is not as good as tempest heal and dmg

I would prefer Druids Heal output being buffed (or every other Support being brought down, further incentivizing running double supports) over being stuck forever and ever with Druid being the only viable solo heal.

Spirits and Spotter (among other unique per boss Utility) already give it it's spot as most uniquely offensive Support and requiring a second Might Stacker/Support would open up the way for Tempest, Firebrand, Scrapper, Scourge (at least if it's Might stacking capabilities are buffed) etc. a lot, making them a lot more viable choices over always just running a Druid.

Damage is already creeped by so much, I don't think 10 man Supports should be a thing personally, especially if there's really just one choice for it.Just like what Chronos used to be for Boon supports, having one class/spec being the only viable choice for a role for years just gets boring.

I would want spirit to be toned down maybe change their passive effect over to necro who needs it more.

Necro desperately needs something extra, I agree. Especially since Anet seems committed to never make it a top Tier DPS, Healer, Tank, Boon Support, anything - something to incentivize at least bringing one along could go a long way for diversity, and Vampiric Presence just ain't cutting it.

Ranger already got dps role it dont need to be healer.I dont want druid viable as ranger can choose to be a dps now instead and it would be better over all that anet just let chrono druid meta fade away.

I don't agree with that. Just like I don't want anyone who enjoys playing support but just happens to not like Druid to be screwed, I also don't want those who do enjoy Druid to be screwed. More class/spec diversity is always a good thing, and viability doesn't need to be "exchanged".Anet always does this (ex. nerfing condi Reaper to "make room" for Scourge, just leading to Reaper having a dead Grandmaster for years to come, and neither Reaper nor Scourge being a sufficiently powerful cDPS for years).It's great to have one profession be viable as Healer and DPS, or hell, even having two different viable Specs for the same role, leaving it to player preference.Player choice is king for longevity.

And no druid shouldnt get heal buffed it would just make bunker druid comeback.

Heal buffs could obviously be split to be PvE only (although I personally think supports are too powerful to begin with).

I rather want support to be moved to other classes like tempest,scourge and scrapper. I dont like unique buffs like frost spirit as it forces the skill in. Gotl can have swiftness instead of might

I'm not a huge fan of unique buffs either, especially if there is no parity between Professions. Otherwise they could provide unique choices for different on par comps.But as it is we just have specific meta roles like 10 man Might Stacker and Healer, filled by really only one Spec of one Profession, on top of that one profession having unique buffs for which no one else can provide something on par.

That's how we get stuck with always playing with/as one and the same thing for years.So either other specs need unique on par buffs, or they need to be phased out completely. Same with 10 man target caps. They might be fine for niche use skills like Stand Your Ground (although I'm not 100% sold on that either), but not as whole role defining constant thing like Might stacking.

Overall though, I still want Druid to be a viable choice, I just don't want it to be the only choice.

Cant agree with the 5 man might/spirts on druid not just becouse I play one but we had that before rememeber?And what did people take 2 druids so the change actualy helped getting diffrent support into the squads that play safe with 2 healers instead of 1.

Not the Spirits, no, they are likely better kept as some of the 10 man exceptions (or reworked to be entirely defensive/supportive in effect with Frost and Sun), bc as you say otherwise it's just always two Druid's instead of one again.Grace of the Land (and probably things like Heat Sync) though I personally would prefer as 5 man, making room for another Support/Might Stacker.

Otherwise I just don't really see the opportunity for any other spec to ever be really viable as main heal other than Druid over the lifetime of GW2, unless they are just given the same 10 Man Might Stacking and Spirit/Spotter like damage buffs as well.

It's pretty much the same issue we had with Chrono for years, that unless another spec just got to do basically everything as well, nothing would ever compete with it, but people argued against nerfing it stating that would just mean running more Chronos.But in the end the nerfs did what they were supposed to, even if it was a painful road of Trial and Error, and I for one am glad we aren't stuck with Chrono for every 5 man and double Chrono for every 10 man content anymore for all eternity, and instead went to at least Chrono, Renegade and Firebrand being used, which while still not immense diversity is at least triple the viable boon support specs than what we had before.

I just think it's about time the same happens for the Might and heal main support role, how exactly idc.I just don't want to see the same spec in every single group for years and years and years without any diversity or consideration of alternatives because it's simply so far ahead/provides tools nothing else can come even close to.

[Laila Lightness.8742]

@Asum.4960 said:

@Linken.6345 said:

@Asum.4960 said:

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:

@Asum.4960 said:

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:

@"Kuma.1503" said:If not for Druid giving out 25 might on it's own, Heal tempest may have had a niche, but alas.

Without that might druid would be gone from end game as its heals are weak spirit is not as good as tempest heal and dmg

I would prefer Druids Heal output being buffed (or every other Support being brought down, further incentivizing running double supports) over being stuck forever and ever with Druid being the only viable solo heal.

Spirits and Spotter (among other unique per boss Utility) already give it it's spot as most uniquely offensive Support and requiring a second Might Stacker/Support would open up the way for Tempest, Firebrand, Scrapper, Scourge (at least if it's Might stacking capabilities are buffed) etc. a lot, making them a lot more viable choices over always just running a Druid.

Damage is already creeped by so much, I don't think 10 man Supports should be a thing personally, especially if there's really just one choice for it.Just like what Chronos used to be for Boon supports, having one class/spec being the only viable choice for a role for years just gets boring.

I would want spirit to be toned down maybe change their passive effect over to necro who needs it more.

Necro desperately needs something extra, I agree. Especially since Anet seems committed to never make it a top Tier DPS, Healer, Tank, Boon Support, anything - something to incentivize at least bringing one along could go a long way for diversity, and Vampiric Presence just ain't cutting it.

Ranger already got dps role it dont need to be healer.I dont want druid viable as ranger can choose to be a dps now instead and it would be better over all that anet just let chrono druid meta fade away.

I don't agree with that. Just like I don't want anyone who enjoys playing support but just happens to not like Druid to be screwed, I also don't want those who do enjoy Druid to be screwed. More class/spec diversity is always a good thing, and viability doesn't need to be "exchanged".Anet always does this (ex. nerfing condi Reaper to "make room" for Scourge, just leading to Reaper having a dead Grandmaster for years to come, and neither Reaper nor Scourge being a sufficiently powerful cDPS for years).It's great to have one profession be viable as Healer and DPS, or hell, even having two different viable Specs for the same role, leaving it to player preference.Player choice is king for longevity.

And no druid shouldnt get heal buffed it would just make bunker druid comeback.

Heal buffs could obviously be split to be PvE only (although I personally think supports are too powerful to begin with).

I rather want support to be moved to other classes like tempest,scourge and scrapper. I dont like unique buffs like frost spirit as it forces the skill in. Gotl can have swiftness instead of might

I'm not a huge fan of unique buffs either, especially if there is no parity between Professions. Otherwise they could provide unique choices for different on par comps.But as it is we just have specific meta roles like 10 man Might Stacker and Healer, filled by really only one Spec of one Profession, on top of that one profession having unique buffs for which no one else can provide something on par.

That's how we get stuck with always playing with/as one and the same thing for years.So either other specs need unique on par buffs, or they need to be phased out completely. Same with 10 man target caps. They might be fine for niche use skills like Stand Your Ground (although I'm not 100% sold on that either), but not as whole role defining constant thing like Might stacking.

Overall though, I still want Druid to be a viable choice, I just don't want it to be the only choice.

Cant agree with the 5 man might/spirts on druid not just becouse I play one but we had that before rememeber?And what did people take 2 druids so the change actualy helped getting diffrent support into the squads that play safe with 2 healers instead of 1.

Not the Spirits, no, they are likely better kept as some of the 10 man exceptions (or reworked to be entirely defensive/supportive in effect with Frost and Sun), bc as you say otherwise it's just always two Druid's instead of one again.Grace of the Land (and probably things like Heat Sync) though I personally would prefer as 5 man, making room for another Support/Might Stacker.

Otherwise I just don't really see the opportunity for any other spec to ever be really viable as main heal other than Druid over the lifetime of GW2, unless they are just given the same 10 Man Might Stacking and Spirit/Spotter like damage buffs as well.

It's pretty much the same issue we had with Chrono for years, that unless another spec just got to do basically everything as well, nothing would ever compete with it, but people argued against nerfing it stating that would just mean running more Chronos.But in the end the nerfs did what they were supposed to, even if it was a painful road of Trial and Error, and I for one am glad we aren't stuck with Chrono for every 5 man and double Chrono for every 10 man content anymore for all eternity, and instead went to at least Chrono, Renegade and Firebrand being used, which while still not immense diversity is at least triple the viable boon support specs than what we had before.

I just think it's about time the same happens for the Might and heal main support role, how exactly idc.I just don't want to see the same spec in every single group for years and years and years without any diversity or consideration of alternatives because it's simply so far ahead/provides tools nothing else can come even close to.

My issue with gotl is its to easy to use for might if it was an more common boon like swiftness its ok but it shouldnt have might. Might is what guardians and eles do after all. Always felt that it was out of place on ranger

[Kuma.1503]

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:

@Asum.4960 said:

@Linken.6345 said:

@Asum.4960 said:

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:

@Asum.4960 said:

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:

@"Kuma.1503" said:If not for Druid giving out 25 might on it's own, Heal tempest may have had a niche, but alas.

Without that might druid would be gone from end game as its heals are weak spirit is not as good as tempest heal and dmg

I would prefer Druids Heal output being buffed (or every other Support being brought down, further incentivizing running double supports) over being stuck forever and ever with Druid being the only viable solo heal.

Spirits and Spotter (among other unique per boss Utility) already give it it's spot as most uniquely offensive Support and requiring a second Might Stacker/Support would open up the way for Tempest, Firebrand, Scrapper, Scourge (at least if it's Might stacking capabilities are buffed) etc. a lot, making them a lot more viable choices over always just running a Druid.

Damage is already creeped by so much, I don't think 10 man Supports should be a thing personally, especially if there's really just one choice for it.Just like what Chronos used to be for Boon supports, having one class/spec being the only viable choice for a role for years just gets boring.

I would want spirit to be toned down maybe change their passive effect over to necro who needs it more.

Necro desperately needs something extra, I agree. Especially since Anet seems committed to never make it a top Tier DPS, Healer, Tank, Boon Support, anything - something to incentivize at least bringing one along could go a long way for diversity, and Vampiric Presence just ain't cutting it.

Ranger already got dps role it dont need to be healer.I dont want druid viable as ranger can choose to be a dps now instead and it would be better over all that anet just let chrono druid meta fade away.

I don't agree with that. Just like I don't want anyone who enjoys playing support but just happens to not like Druid to be screwed, I also don't want those who do enjoy Druid to be screwed. More class/spec diversity is always a good thing, and viability doesn't need to be "exchanged".Anet always does this (ex. nerfing condi Reaper to "make room" for Scourge, just leading to Reaper having a dead Grandmaster for years to come, and neither Reaper nor Scourge being a sufficiently powerful cDPS for years).It's great to have one profession be viable as Healer and DPS, or hell, even having two different viable Specs for the same role, leaving it to player preference.Player choice is king for longevity.

And no druid shouldnt get heal buffed it would just make bunker druid comeback.

Heal buffs could obviously be split to be PvE only (although I personally think supports are too powerful to begin with).

I rather want support to be moved to other classes like tempest,scourge and scrapper. I dont like unique buffs like frost spirit as it forces the skill in. Gotl can have swiftness instead of might

I'm not a huge fan of unique buffs either, especially if there is no parity between Professions. Otherwise they could provide unique choices for different on par comps.But as it is we just have specific meta roles like 10 man Might Stacker and Healer, filled by really only one Spec of one Profession, on top of that one profession having unique buffs for which no one else can provide something on par.

That's how we get stuck with always playing with/as one and the same thing for years.So either other specs need unique on par buffs, or they need to be phased out completely. Same with 10 man target caps. They might be fine for niche use skills like Stand Your Ground (although I'm not 100% sold on that either), but not as whole role defining constant thing like Might stacking.

Overall though, I still want Druid to be a viable choice, I just don't want it to be the only choice.

Cant agree with the 5 man might/spirts on druid not just becouse I play one but we had that before rememeber?And what did people take 2 druids so the change actualy helped getting diffrent support into the squads that play safe with 2 healers instead of 1.

Not the Spirits, no, they are likely better kept as some of the 10 man exceptions (or reworked to be entirely defensive/supportive in effect with Frost and Sun), bc as you say otherwise it's just always two Druid's instead of one again.Grace of the Land (and probably things like Heat Sync) though I personally would prefer as 5 man, making room for another Support/Might Stacker.

Otherwise I just don't really see the opportunity for any other spec to ever be really viable as main heal other than Druid over the lifetime of GW2, unless they are just given the same 10 Man Might Stacking and Spirit/Spotter like damage buffs as well.

It's pretty much the same issue we had with Chrono for years, that unless another spec just got to do basically everything as well, nothing would ever compete with it, but people argued against nerfing it stating that would just mean running more Chronos.But in the end the nerfs did what they were supposed to, even if it was a painful road of Trial and Error, and I for one am glad we aren't stuck with Chrono for every 5 man and double Chrono for every 10 man content anymore for all eternity, and instead went to at least Chrono, Renegade and Firebrand being used, which while still not immense diversity is at least triple the viable boon support specs than what we had before.

I just think it's about time the same happens for the Might and heal main support role, how exactly idc.I just don't want to see the same spec in every single group for years and years and years without any diversity or consideration of alternatives because it's simply so far ahead/provides tools nothing else can come even close to.

My issue with gotl is its to easy to use for might if it was an more common boon like swiftness its ok but it shouldnt have might. Might is what guardians and eles do after all. Always felt that it was out of place on ranger

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:

@Asum.4960 said:

@Linken.6345 said:

@Asum.4960 said:

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:

@Asum.4960 said:

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:

@"Kuma.1503" said:If not for Druid giving out 25 might on it's own, Heal tempest may have had a niche, but alas.

Without that might druid would be gone from end game as its heals are weak spirit is not as good as tempest heal and dmg

I would prefer Druids Heal output being buffed (or every other Support being brought down, further incentivizing running double supports) over being stuck forever and ever with Druid being the only viable solo heal.

Spirits and Spotter (among other unique per boss Utility) already give it it's spot as most uniquely offensive Support and requiring a second Might Stacker/Support would open up the way for Tempest, Firebrand, Scrapper, Scourge (at least if it's Might stacking capabilities are buffed) etc. a lot, making them a lot more viable choices over always just running a Druid.

Damage is already creeped by so much, I don't think 10 man Supports should be a thing personally, especially if there's really just one choice for it.Just like what Chronos used to be for Boon supports, having one class/spec being the only viable choice for a role for years just gets boring.

I would want spirit to be toned down maybe change their passive effect over to necro who needs it more.

Necro desperately needs something extra, I agree. Especially since Anet seems committed to never make it a top Tier DPS, Healer, Tank, Boon Support, anything - something to incentivize at least bringing one along could go a long way for diversity, and Vampiric Presence just ain't cutting it.

Ranger already got dps role it dont need to be healer.I dont want druid viable as ranger can choose to be a dps now instead and it would be better over all that anet just let chrono druid meta fade away.

I don't agree with that. Just like I don't want anyone who enjoys playing support but just happens to not like Druid to be screwed, I also don't want those who do enjoy Druid to be screwed. More class/spec diversity is always a good thing, and viability doesn't need to be "exchanged".Anet always does this (ex. nerfing condi Reaper to "make room" for Scourge, just leading to Reaper having a dead Grandmaster for years to come, and neither Reaper nor Scourge being a sufficiently powerful cDPS for years).It's great to have one profession be viable as Healer and DPS, or hell, even having two different viable Specs for the same role, leaving it to player preference.Player choice is king for longevity.

And no druid shouldnt get heal buffed it would just make bunker druid comeback.

Heal buffs could obviously be split to be PvE only (although I personally think supports are too powerful to begin with).

I rather want support to be moved to other classes like tempest,scourge and scrapper. I dont like unique buffs like frost spirit as it forces the skill in. Gotl can have swiftness instead of might

I'm not a huge fan of unique buffs either, especially if there is no parity between Professions. Otherwise they could provide unique choices for different on par comps.But as it is we just have specific meta roles like 10 man Might Stacker and Healer, filled by really only one Spec of one Profession, on top of that one profession having unique buffs for which no one else can provide something on par.

That's how we get stuck with always playing with/as one and the same thing for years.So either other specs need unique on par buffs, or they need to be phased out completely. Same with 10 man target caps. They might be fine for niche use skills like Stand Your Ground (although I'm not 100% sold on that either), but not as whole role defining constant thing like Might stacking.

Overall though, I still want Druid to be a viable choice, I just don't want it to be the only choice.

Cant agree with the 5 man might/spirts on druid not just becouse I play one but we had that before rememeber?And what did people take 2 druids so the change actualy helped getting diffrent support into the squads that play safe with 2 healers instead of 1.

Not the Spirits, no, they are likely better kept as some of the 10 man exceptions (or reworked to be entirely defensive/supportive in effect with Frost and Sun), bc as you say otherwise it's just always two Druid's instead of one again.Grace of the Land (and probably things like Heat Sync) though I personally would prefer as 5 man, making room for another Support/Might Stacker.

Otherwise I just don't really see the opportunity for any other spec to ever be really viable as main heal other than Druid over the lifetime of GW2, unless they are just given the same 10 Man Might Stacking and Spirit/Spotter like damage buffs as well.

It's pretty much the same issue we had with Chrono for years, that unless another spec just got to do basically everything as well, nothing would ever compete with it, but people argued against nerfing it stating that would just mean running more Chronos.But in the end the nerfs did what they were supposed to, even if it was a painful road of Trial and Error, and I for one am glad we aren't stuck with Chrono for every 5 man and double Chrono for every 10 man content anymore for all eternity, and instead went to at least Chrono, Renegade and Firebrand being used, which while still not immense diversity is at least triple the viable boon support specs than what we had before.

I just think it's about time the same happens for the Might and heal main support role, how exactly idc.I just don't want to see the same spec in every single group for years and years and years without any diversity or consideration of alternatives because it's simply so far ahead/provides tools nothing else can come even close to.

My issue with gotl is its to easy to use for might if it was an more common boon like swiftness its ok but it shouldnt have might. Might is what guardians and eles do after all. Always felt that it was out of place on ranger

They could give Grace of the land Prot and allow Ranger to apply Rugged Growth to all allies they apply protection to. Ranger would still grant some might from Call of The Wild and Frost spirit, but not 25 might, opening up room to run A Tempest or Renegade in the 2nd slot

For Tempest, On top of Granting might, perhaps the damage bonus from Transcendent Tempest could apply to up to 5-10 targets in an area around the tempest. That would make tempest more desirable as an offensive support.

Another idea would be to change the functionality of Sand Squall. Instead of extending boons, it could reduce the cooldown of all skills by 3 seconds for all allies affected. This would allow Tempest to boost the effectiveness of Alacrity, making them a desirable choice even if they cannot grant Alacrity themselves.

[otto.5684]

Rev two top tier builds. Condi renegede and support renegade. They are in very high demand everywhere.

Engi has strong power holo build

Ya.. necro the unwanted step child of PvE. It has no good damage or support builds. GL

[Tiilimon.6094]

Imo all support is perfectly viable, but people prefer to have the fastest possible runs.

As a srapper I can drag players through pve content who simply cant find the dodge key, but I dont contribute to dps in any other way than keeping others alive and booned up through condi conversion.

A druid for example, will have a harder time keeping low skilled players alive, but will provide a quicker run for a higher skilled group.

[Juan.6124]

Firebrand and Druid are picked because of the offensive buffs. If you have double chrono can you bring literally any offhealer. Druid is a fixed build but can still be replaced by a soulbeast with spirits and a tempest or herald.

[Aceofsppades.6873]

The issue is that the healers are too unique. While most dps can be swapped out 1 to 1 swapping out a druid requires that you swap the healer, the squad might source, and bring a soulbeast for spirits.

Similar thing for healbrand in fractals.

Druid is actually easy to replace when you have a different might source such as a boon thief just bring a soulbeast as well and you're fine.

Similar thing for healbrand in fractals.

A lot of groups aren't going to do that so you have the rigid support meta.

[Kodama.6453]

Engineer is still open to get a dedicated support elite spec.If they give us an elite spec that is able to give important boons to allies (high might stacks + either quickness or alacrity), then engineer can very well be a meta support.

[Nimon.7840]

@"Tiilimon.6094" said:Imo all support is perfectly viable, but people prefer to have the fastest possible runs.

I wouldn't say that. Yes every support spec has an use. But perfectly viable? I doubt that. Fastest runs? Yes definetly. That's just how the world works nowadays. People want fast and smooth kills for bosses, so they can use the time they saved by being fast, to do something else.

The problem is more like:Why is support druid allowed to be meta for 5 years.Yes you can completely swap it out right now.For example: my group runs double heal/tank firebrand on soulless horror, 3 condi-renegades with righteous rebel for alacrity, 1 berserker for banners, 1 dps scourge for epi, and at least one soulbeast for sunspirit.

The problem with some of the support specs: they are completely busted op.Druid can heal and provide important boons and unique buffs to the group (spirits, spotter)Firebrand can heal, and provide it's subgroup with quickness and aegis + stability. Which lets you ignore a lot of mechanics.Renegade (healer) has insane healing output, and can do perma 10 man alacrity

That's the three busted healers.

Now there's some others:Heal/boonthief: theoretically busted, as it provides all boons except alacrity and heals a bit. The fact that not every boss gives plasma when stealing, makes it not busted. I think this is actually balanced.

Tempest: while it can provide very good boons, it's lacking alacrity or quickness, or other unique buffs. But I don't think giving these boons to the tempest would be a good idea.

Scrapper: extremely good condi cleanser and good healer. Big problem with this class: there's no e game boss, that requires this amount of condi cleanse + it doesn't offer unique buffs as well. + I dont even know, if it can provide good might and it's only a 5man healer.

Scourge: can pre-heal. Which is pretty strong. But the complete lack of any boons it can give makes it pretty useless for very good, good and normal groups. It's only good for carrying really bad players, because of short cooldowns on rez- supporting abilities.

And you could also say:Warrior: healshout warrior. Meta in wvw. Bad in pve. Not enough boons to allies, + if you want a support warrior it should take the banners as well, so pretty restricted in it's ability choice. And its biggest strength is cleansing which isn't needed in pve.

And there's mesmer. I don't exactly know what the problem is with this class, butt it seems that the healing abilities are just not enough. You basically only have one direct heal, everything else is coming from your "illusions".

And the biggest problem: some classes can give some very important boons, by choosing to change gear a bit or just choosing another trait, but only loosing very little dps:Firebrand: perma quickness together with very good dps.Renegade: perma alacrity (need 3 for permanent uptime, but that's still to strong)

As a srapper I can drag players through pve content who simply cant find the dodge key, but I dont contribute to dps in any other way than keeping others alive and booned up through condi conversion.

A druid for example, will have a harder time keeping low skilled players alive, but will provide a quicker run for a higher skilled group.

[Kodama.6453]

@Nimon.7840 said:Druid can heal and provide important boons and unique buffs to the group (spirits, spotter, one wolf pack, moa stance)

Druid can't use one wolf pack and moa stance.

[Nimon.7840]

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Nimon.7840 said:Druid can heal and provide important boons and unique buffs to the group (spirits, spotter, one wolf pack, moa stance)

Druid can't use one wolf pack and moa stance.

Oh yeah my bad. I'll correct that.But soulbeast can, which increases group dps or can provide perma quickness with this setup: 3x guardian spec with feel my wrath, 1 soulbeast with moa stance and one wolf pack + one chrono (doesn't have to be in same group) with 10man signet.

I thought they wanted to give different classes different boons to provide.But in my opinion, it gets worse and worse from patch to patch.

We are currently messing around with 10man quickness chrono on some bosses. In combination with alacrigade that frees up another spot for a dps player.

As you basically only have 3 supporters left: chrono, alacrigade, druid.(If you put alac dps + warrior together that's more than a full dps, so I don't count the banner slave as supporter)

When I started raiding, there were 2 chronos, 2 bs, 2healer in every group.

Yes it's good that some support abilities got changed to do 10 man support (like banners) so we don't have as many set classes for raids anymore.But at the same time, I don't like it. Because these abilities are absolutely overpowered.

If at least multiple classes had such skills and anet would use the same mentality on all skills and traits...

Yet we have banners, that boost dps of 10 players. While you don't have to sacrifice a lot of dps to use them.And on the other hand you have traits like vampiric presence that only affect 5 people, while only boosting dps by a little bit (basically a flat amount. If I remember correctly it was around 2k dps increase for the group, but a 3-4k personal dps loss.And that was, before they removed the wells trait out of the blue, to introduce the worst grandmaster trait of all classes.