Bring back the holy trinity.

[IndigoSundown.5419]

@"AliamRationem.5172" said:

It's not really "trinity" and it isn't very unique either. It's simply what you get when a game that removes the trinity and replaces it with nothing new (dps/support is not a role unique to GW2 and exists in all trinity games as well) decides they can't design compelling raid encounters without going at least somewhat trinity.

I'm not sure that's the case. Back before raids there were a lot of posts asking to be able to tank and heal. Why? Probably because GW2 aimed to attract MMO players, and a lot of MMO players raid in trinity setups. So, there was substantial demand that people be able to fill those roles. It seems as likely to me that that was the reason we got ANet's version of tank/heals as to day that they could not design compelling encounters without them. I'll grant that the original dungeons fell flat as a far as replacing trinity mechanics, but they had all the appearances of being rushed out so the game could launch when it did. So, I'm willing to grant that designing trinity-less boss fights was difficult. However, simple HP sponge bosses whose only mechanics were three telegraphed heavy attacks? That's not even trying.

Nobody should be surprised that it feels lackluster compared to the designs it attempts to mimic without fully committing to.

I'll grant that the mechanic of unavoidable damage that must be healed is lackluster. I see this as the result of a basic design issue with action combat and invulnerability frames. The only challenge is in timing the invulnerability. If you time it right, you take no damage. With decent situational awareness, good reflexes/knowledge of one's options and a decent rig, players pretty much avoid every hit. This leads to the observed phenomenon that encounters are really easy (for some), while others find them ridiculously hard. So, we got unavoidable damage. It's easy to say that the healing challenges and mechanics are poorly designed, it's a lot harder for the critics to offer solutions other than revert to full-blown trinity.

GW2's non-trinity design ... it's lacking the tools for challenging organized group play. Many of the nuances that exist in high level trinity raiding/dungeons are simply missing here and nothing replaces them.

Like what, for instance? I raided for about 18 months in WoW and cannot think of anything other than threat-attracting mechanics and targeted heals. Any boss mechanics I experienced (BC and Wrath up through Ulduar could have been implemented with very minor changes in GW2. Maybe, though, you've seen some that could not.

[MokahTGS.7850]

GW2 is not that game. Stop asking for it to be something it isn't. It never will be. L2P the game that it is.

[Thornwolf.9721]

@"MokahTGS.7850" said:GW2 is not that game. Stop asking for it to be something it isn't. It never will be. L2P the game that it is.

Thats why its also not nearly as popular as some of its competition. Because its not a "Game" its a "Cash grab" and a "Theme park" more so than WoW or ESO ever have been and im hoping that Cantha will change that. I dont want a hard trinity~ I would like tanky specs BUILT to be tanky, Id like different than what we've had as most of the E-specs really... do feel samey.

[kharmin.7683]

@"Thornwolf.9721" said:.... as most of the E-specs really... do feel samey.

For me, I think that this feeling can be dependent upon what content one enjoys playing. I'm really casual, so I'm never worried about playing META builds or having BiS gear or skills. I like to mix/match for a particular concept and see what works with what. I main a ranger and have been through soulbeast and druid more than once and now I'm back to core with sword/dagger as my main weapon set and having fun with it. Recently, I started back on my scourge and I know it isn't the "correct" build, but it's fun for me.

But I can see how a player in WvW or PvP (or even raids) can feel the monotony when specific builds seem to rule the day in their respective modes.

[MokahTGS.7850]

@Thornwolf.9721 said:

@"MokahTGS.7850" said:GW2 is not that game. Stop asking for it to be something it isn't. It never will be. L2P the game that it is.

Thats why its also not nearly as popular as some of its competition. Because its not a "Game" its a "Cash grab" and a "Theme park" more so than WoW or ESO ever have been and im hoping that Cantha will change that. I dont want a hard trinity~ I would like tanky specs BUILT to be tanky, Id like different than what we've had as most of the E-specs really... do feel samey.

yeah...it couldn't possibly be that the other two games have massive brand recognition before ever being released...must be because of no trinity...

[Thornwolf.9721]

@MokahTGS.7850 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:

@MokahTGS.7850 said:GW2 is not that game. Stop asking for it to be something it isn't. It never will be. L2P the game that it is.

Thats why its also not nearly as popular as some of its competition. Because its not a "Game" its a "Cash grab" and a "Theme park" more so than WoW or ESO ever have been and im hoping that Cantha will change that. I dont want a hard trinity~ I would like tanky specs BUILT to be tanky, Id like different than what we've had as most of the E-specs really... do feel samey.

yeah...it couldn't possibly be that the other two games have massive brand recognition before ever being released...must be because of no trinity...

Yea, it is because there is no trinity. The classes? Mean nothing. You see the same ones domination all the game modes as the predominant power; Even Overworld PvE warrior and specific other fall WAAAY behind. Reinventing the wheel has never, will never and can never work because people like to have a role to fill and this game lacks that in abundance.. (Outside of maybe raids, but we see how well that went.) ESO and elder scrolls are not NEARLY as popular as GW1 was, GW1 was WoW's big competition back in the day. ESO doesn't even compared to WoW guild wars and by extension guild wars 2 has been, Guild wars was in that echelon and is no longer. I wonder why? Lacking gameplay depth? Lacking class fantasy? Lacking trinity? Lacking even core balance, that makes the game fun to play? All issues guild wars 2 has faced. And have faced and continue face since its release; A soft trinity would help.

If they implemented a trinity, gave everyone the option to tank effectively and fluently and made more bruiser/tank specs and slapped the hell out of the kind of meta's we've seen? Id play more. Right now guild wars 2 is like a side game , you visit when you're bored but you never stick with it because nothing matters and everything is meaningless from guilds to content. Its not like you get stronger, more skilled perhaps but never stronger. And with them blanket nerfing things and destroying some classes; while propping up others it makes you wonder what IS the intended future of this game. (Note my friends refuse to play, because it lacks class roles. They got in, saw what it had and then buzzed off.)

[Astralporing.1957]

@Thornwolf.9721 said:

@"MokahTGS.7850" said:GW2 is not that game. Stop asking for it to be something it isn't. It never will be. L2P the game that it is.

Thats why its also not nearly as popular as some of its competition. Because its not a "Game" its a "Cash grab" and a "Theme park" more so than WoW or ESO ever have been and im hoping that Cantha will change that. I dont want a hard trinity~ I would like tanky specs BUILT to be tanky, Id like different than what we've had as most of the E-specs really... do feel samey.I don't understand. You can currently create some

extremely

tanky builds. The only reason why noone uses them in any demanding content is because, first, they are not needed, and, second, outside of tankiness they usually do not contribute much to anything.

@Thornwolf.9721 said:ESO and elder scrolls are not NEARLY as popular as GW1 was, GW1 was WoW's big competition back in the day.You're vastly overestimating GW1 popularity. Yes, it was popular, but it was never comparable to WoW (the only people that ever thought it was a competition to WoW were some of the GW1 players, but it was never anything more than a wishful thinking). And, unless you have some hard numbers (which i doubt), i'm also quite sure that you're either seriously underestimating ESO (which is doing quite well lately, from what i heard), or overestimating GW1 population.

[Laila Lightness.8742]

There was always a trinity in gw 2 game was just so easy you never had to bother with 66% of it

[Astyrah.4015]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:ESO and elder scrolls are not NEARLY as popular as GW1 was, GW1 was WoW's big competition back in the day.You're vastly overestimating GW1 popularity. Yes, it was popular, but it was never comparable to WoW (the only people that ever thought it was a competition to WoW were some of the GW1 players, but it was never anything more than a wishful thinking). And, unless you have some hard numbers (which i doubt), i'm also quite sure that you're either seriously underestimating ESO (which is doing quite well lately, from what i heard), or overestimating GW1 population.

iirc Skyrim was huge when it came out in 2011~2012 and the same fans were very much hyped for ESO at around 2014 launch

[Thornwolf.9721]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:

@"MokahTGS.7850" said:GW2 is not that game. Stop asking for it to be something it isn't. It never will be. L2P the game that it is.

Thats why its also not nearly as popular as some of its competition. Because its not a "Game" its a "Cash grab" and a "Theme park" more so than WoW or ESO ever have been and im hoping that Cantha will change that. I dont want a hard trinity~ I would like tanky specs BUILT to be tanky, Id like different than what we've had as most of the E-specs really... do feel samey.I don't understand. You can currently create some

extremely

tanky builds. The only reason why noone uses them in any demanding content is because, first, they are not needed, and, second, outside of tankiness they usually do not contribute much to anything.

@Thornwolf.9721 said:ESO and elder scrolls are not NEARLY as popular as GW1 was, GW1 was WoW's big competition back in the day.You're vastly overestimating GW1 popularity. Yes, it was popular, but it was never comparable to WoW (the only people that ever thought it was a competition to WoW were some of the GW1 players, but it was never anything more than a wishful thinking). And, unless you have some hard numbers (which i doubt), i'm also quite sure that you're either seriously underestimating ESO (which is doing quite well lately, from what i heard), or overestimating GW1 population.

But ESO's Success is NOT linked to Skyrim which is the most popular of the elder scrolls series by far; Its honestly because Zennimax studios listen to their fans and they might be slow to implement needed changes but they DO implament them and they DO try to add content they know their community loves. A-net is the exact opposite, they dont talk and they dont care. Even now it feels like its more of "Yea, yea shut up and consume the product." Elder scrolls was pretty niche up until Skyrim main-streamed it as Oblivion and Morrowind were pretty hard and honestly I DOUBT highly they would surrvive in today gaming culture. Because gamers inherently dont want a challenge, they want to be rewarded for existing in most cases. There are outliers but most will just drop a game the moment it forces them to think, which is why some genres have suffered so hard... especially the socially focused games.

@Astyrah.4015 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:ESO and elder scrolls are not NEARLY as popular as GW1 was, GW1 was WoW's big competition back in the day.You're vastly overestimating GW1 popularity. Yes, it was popular, but it was never comparable to WoW (the only people that ever thought it was a competition to WoW were some of the GW1 players, but it was never anything more than a wishful thinking). And, unless you have some hard numbers (which i doubt), i'm also quite sure that you're either seriously underestimating ESO (which is doing quite well lately, from what i heard), or overestimating GW1 population.

iirc Skyrim was huge when it came out in 2011~2012 and the same fans were very much hyped for ESO at around 2014 launch

And the 2014 launch was so horrendously bad that the game nearly died, had to drop its required sub-fee and had to basically change the core of the game. ESO now is vastly different to ESO then, they had to do something because their community brought them to task. ESO has only grown in recent time to be major competition to WoW where guild wars 2 held that spot. Whats interesting is both Final fantasy online and ESO FAILED at launch and went back, looked over the issues and addressed them to ensure a successful future. Guild wars 2 did much the opposite as at launch it was a HUGE success and then just sat still, and did nothing new really even though the expansions expanded upon what the foundation was nothing has changed. What guild wars 2 did well then, is what it does well now and what it suffered from then it suffers from more now. There has been no evolution, outside of power-creep and the attempt to reign it in despite the fact that every attempt keeps dragging the game into more and more tedious gameplay.

1. Guild wars 2 has not moved forward, if anything it feels less like the 2012 game and more like an earlier build of it.
2. Latency also doesn't help
3. Cosmetically only lately have we gotten decent looking gear, since launch we've gotten turds in that department.
4. Other games continue to add more and more things, from skill-lines to classes and even races.. Guild wars 2 adds E-specs which honestly seem to have added problems and not solutions (They never truly offer a new theme, thus are just linked to what is there and are not interesting outside of interactions with core. which eventually ends up nerfed into oblivion.)
5. We continue to suffer from problems that have no business still existing, seven years later.
6. The PvE endgame is kind of underwhelming, when compared to the competition.
7. PvP and WvW the two most engaging modes usually for new players, have been abandoned and left to rot. So players see no point in doing it because there is nothing there worth chasing; MOST gamers need a carrot on a stick to do the content. Thats where the game begins to fall flat
8. There is no meaningful progression of any-kind after ascended/legendary, you're done. Retire that character and make a new one.... thats not engaging gameplay. Nor is it re-playable or enjoyable.
9. The trinity's lack of existence means most classes feel samey with different colors.
10. The community NEVER holds them to task, rather we turn on one another and new players get caught in the middle and as it is? The drama will chase people off.

[Vision.7265]

@kharmin.7683 said:

@"Thornwolf.9721" said:.... as most of the E-specs really... do feel samey.

For me, I think that this feeling can be dependent upon what content one enjoys playing. I'm really casual, so I'm never worried about playing META builds or having BiS gear or skills. I like to mix/match for a particular concept and see what works with what. I main a ranger and have been through soulbeast and druid more than once and now I'm back to core with sword/dagger as my main weapon set and having fun with it. Recently, I started back on my scourge and I know it isn't the "correct" build, but it's fun for me.

How are we not friends or even in the same guild? Between you and Hugo, I agree with most of what you say in the forums overall.

This is the right attitude for this game because that's how it always was: play as you want.

I'm excited for the new expansion. I hope we go back to this game's roots of playing as we want.

[Thornwolf.9721]

@XYLO.7031 said:

@kharmin.7683 said:

@"Thornwolf.9721" said:.... as most of the E-specs really... do feel samey.

For me, I think that this feeling can be dependent upon what content one enjoys playing. I'm really casual, so I'm never worried about playing META builds or having BiS gear or skills. I like to mix/match for a particular concept and see what works with what. I main a ranger and have been through soulbeast and druid more than once and now I'm back to core with sword/dagger as my main weapon set and having fun with it. Recently, I started back on my scourge and I know it isn't the "correct" build, but it's fun for me.

How are we not friends or even in the same guild? Between you and Hugo, I agree with most of what you say in the forums overall.

This is the right attitude for this game because that's how it always was: play as you want.

I'm excited for the new expansion. I hope we go back to this game's roots of playing as we want.

Even though I wasn't the intended target of this mention, I agree. Id love to go back to the "play as you want and have fun" mantra of launch guild wars 2 as to me that was when the game was at its best. I hope we get there.... one day

[kharmin.7683]

@Thornwolf.9721 said:

@XYLO.7031 said:

@kharmin.7683 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:.... as most of the E-specs really... do feel samey.

For me, I think that this feeling can be dependent upon what content one enjoys playing. I'm really casual, so I'm never worried about playing META builds or having BiS gear or skills. I like to mix/match for a particular concept and see what works with what. I main a ranger and have been through soulbeast and druid more than once and now I'm back to core with sword/dagger as my main weapon set and having fun with it. Recently, I started back on my scourge and I know it isn't the "correct" build, but it's fun for me.

How are we not friends or even in the same guild? Between you and Hugo, I agree with most of what you say in the forums overall.

This is the right attitude for this game because that's how it always was: play as you want.

I'm excited for the new expansion. I hope we go back to this game's roots of playing as we want.

Even though I wasn't the intended target of this mention, I agree. Id love to go back to the "play as you want and have fun" mantra of launch guild wars 2 as to me that was when the game was at its best. I hope we get there.... one day

Thank you both. As I've stated, I'm a very casual player. I've not tried strikes or raids; I simply can't commit the time to them. So, why then should I worry about META or BiS? I find the builds that I like and they can be challenging enough for me in the high level OWPvE maps. Sure, I could search online and find more optimal configurations and/or rotations, but then I feel like I'm playing someone else's character, someone else's game. When I have my own, wonky builds I get more satisfaction when playing the game, even if I don't complete certain content with my setup.

Do I feel that I miss out on some content? Sure. I'd like to try a raid to see what it's all about, but I'm not going to practice for it. That, to me, is far too much work and I do enough of that with my RL job. I look to GW2 for entertainment and some of the content just won't entertain and that's fine. It's my choice to avoid fractals, strikes and raids.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Thornwolf.9721 said:ESO and elder scrolls are not NEARLY as popular as GW1 was, GW1 was WoW's big competition back in the day.

Let's see the revenue of Guild Wars 1:

Q2 2005: 9.45M Prophecies (April)Q3 2005: 16.42MQ4 2005: 14.3MQ1 2006: 6.52MQ2 2006: 17.33M Factions (April)Q3 2006: 11.8M Nightfall (October)Q4 2006: 19.59MQ1 2007: 12.26MQ2 2007: 8.91MQ3 2007: 14.08M Eye of the North (August)Q4 2007: 10.05MQ1 2008: 9.90MQ2 2008: 4.96MQ3 2008: 3.37M release on Steam (September)Q4 2008: 3.68M

I'm not sure WoW had any kind of issue with these numbers. Year over Year Guild Wars 2 is doing better than Guild Wars 1 and I'm positive ESO is doing better than Guild Wars 2 at this point in time.

Year over yearGuild Wars 12005: 40.172006: 55.242007: 45.3

Guild Wars 22012: 151.032013: 112.892014: 81.92015: 88.272016: 65.47

[Astyrah.4015]

@Thornwolf.9721 said:And the 2014 launch was so horrendously bad that the game nearly died, had to drop its required sub-fee and had to basically change the core of the game. ESO now is vastly different to ESO then, they had to do something because their community brought them to task. ESO has only grown in recent time to be major competition to WoW where guild wars 2 held that spot. Whats interesting is both Final fantasy online and ESO FAILED at launch and went back, looked over the issues and addressed them to ensure a successful future. Guild wars 2 did much the opposite as at launch it was a HUGE success and then just sat still, and did nothing new really even though the expansions expanded upon what the foundation was nothing has changed. What guild wars 2 did well then, is what it does well now and what it suffered from then it suffers from more now. There has been no evolution, outside of power-creep and the attempt to reign it in despite the fact that every attempt keeps dragging the game into more and more tedious gameplay.

1. Guild wars 2 has not moved forward, if anything it feels less like the 2012 game and more like an earlier build of it.
2. Latency also doesn't help
3. Cosmetically only lately have we gotten decent looking gear, since launch we've gotten turds in that department.
4. Other games continue to add more and more things, from skill-lines to classes and even races.. Guild wars 2 adds E-specs which honestly seem to have added problems and not solutions (They never truly offer a new theme, thus are just linked to what is there and are not interesting outside of interactions with core. which eventually ends up nerfed into oblivion.)
5. We continue to suffer from problems that have no business still existing, seven years later.
6. The PvE endgame is kind of underwhelming, when compared to the competition.
7. PvP and WvW the two most engaging modes usually for new players, have been abandoned and left to rot. So players see no point in doing it because there is nothing there worth chasing; MOST gamers need a carrot on a stick to do the content. Thats where the game begins to fall flat
8. There is no meaningful progression of any-kind after ascended/legendary, you're done. Retire that character and make a new one.... thats not engaging gameplay. Nor is it re-playable or enjoyable.
9. The trinity's lack of existence means most classes feel samey with different colors.
10. The community NEVER holds them to task, rather we turn on one another and new players get caught in the middle and as it is? The drama will chase people off.

lol not here to argue just wanted to point out that before gw2, elder scrolls had a following that was on par with GW1's

1-2-3-4, agree somewhat and it feels like if gw2 was moving forward it wasn't doing so as much as other games in the genre. but that could also be either the studio's unwillingness to coordinate with the community to improve the game step-by-step or they are playing it safe or both. the cosmetics we have is ok, i don't like all the shiny neon lights we tend to get but whenever we get cool/plain looking armour in-game im happy. the lag is just.. i don't know what to say about it anymore lol.

6-7-8, well that's how gw2 designed their way of horizontal progression at some point everyone is equal and will stay equal, gear-wise (whether it be pve/pvp/wvw) and it's just your skill as a player that matters. in vertical progression games after you get BiS (and everyone in your raid or in pvp gets the BiS) it's no different than GW2.. just that the cycle repeats every 5 to 7 months at a time whenever a new patch raises the max powerlevel/itemlevel, that's not enjoyable for some people... for some, not having your gear go obsolete and not having to farm/grind/craft/work for a new set or chase a new carrot-on-stick is better than going through the cycle -- that's the kind of players gw2 attracts mostly (not saying gw's gearing is superior than the others btw it was just the design choice)

9, yeah.. (back to topic), like i mentioned earlier to another person, i don't mind not having a trinity in gw2, there are pros and cons to it, but i wouldn't mind it either if they actually reworked everything and gave us actual tanks-healers-dps (like in ff14/wow) though that's going to be a hell lotta re-working to do and is very unlikely

10, there's always going to be someone who has their ideal vision for the game and for some reason i see more people here on the official forums disagree with one another compared to the gw2 reddit for example