Stealth rework

[Noah Salazar.5430]

I propose to stealth not stack duration, only refresh like it is with superspeed

As compensation skills that pulses stealth will get 5-6s stealth, pulses refresh durationRevealed descrest from 3s to 2sRevealed skills descrest from 6s to 5sYour geting Reveled even if your attack get dodged/missed/blocked/eveded

All that changes gona apply to pve,pvp,wvw (for pvp/wvw durations can be diferent)

+That way you gona use stealth more offten, but more for changing position/fight pause+Using multiple stealth skills at same time punishes you as you geting less stealth+Perm stealth still will be posible but you need put more effor to it, same as you can't just run free with 18s stealth close to enemy as you got more chance to hit someone accidentally while you try refresh stealth

Basic hp of Guardian, Thief, Elementalist 11,645->12,824Incresting health will allow that classes avoid Dead zone (many spells sometimes hit for 12-13k in pve as well)->thief as new stealth gonna effect his fight style->fb as his mantras suck now at pvp/wvw->Elementalist but Glyph of Elemental harmony 6,614->5,214That changes gona effect pve,pvp,wvw thats why i puted it more as overall discussion

[ASP.8093]

IDK if I like it, but your proposal isn't unreasonable, imo. Good starting point for a discussion.

[Tempest.8479]

While I think that changing stealth to refresh duration wouldn't be a bad solution, I'd actually like to see stealth addressed from a mobility and evasion perspective first. As it stands, I feel it makes no sense that a player who shrouds themselves with invisibility can move as fast (or faster in some cases) than regular movement speed. As a concept defined by this game's mechanics, stealth isn't intangibility. There's still a person occupying physical space that still functions just like everyone else. Someone who's invisible running around like normal or even at 150% speed, often dodging around in a full set of armor would be a pretty loud, easy to spot target even without the ability to see them. Therefore, I think players taking advantage of stealth should be forced to be less mobile to maintain the guise of invisibility.

I think it makes sense to adjust stealth in one or both of the following ways:

• Stealth now reduces movement speed by anywhere from 15-25%. This is always 25% in pvp/wvw (Bonus movement speed granted by Meld in Shadows is reduced to 25%)
• Entering stealth now applies exhaustion for its duration

Applying the first change would apply a slight nerf to stealth mobility in pve, hopefully with the intention of reducing the ability for players to skip certain mechanics. The 25% nerf in pvp seems like a reasonable reduction in movement speed without becoming so restrictive that it would make it impossible to disengage imo. In addition, thieves would now have a unique advantage in stealth while taking shadow arts because they would be the only profession to be able to move at 100% speed while invisible. Nobody should ever be able to move faster than 100% speed in stealth.

The second change would introduce an interesting limit to a player's ability to use stealth defensively, placing more of an emphasis on positioning and using stealth proactively to avoid attacks rather than dodging away in stealth reactively. Interesting strategies and counterplay opportunities would be opened by baiting dodges out of stealth to cripple an enemy's ability to use them while invisible.

I'd also like to add that the application of these changes wouldn't be in a vacuum. If one or both of them proved to be too little, then I feel that stealth durations should be addressed like OP suggested. If certain professions, namely thief, feel like they're underperforming after these changes, then some buffs to trait and skills could help compensate, as well as reductions to skills that apply revealed.

[rdigeri.7935]

@Tempest.8479 said:While I think that changing stealth to refresh duration wouldn't be a bad solution, I'd actually like to see stealth addressed from a mobility and evasion perspective first. As it stands, I feel it makes no sense that a player who shrouds themselves with invisibility can move as fast (or faster in some cases) than regular movement speed. As a concept defined by this game's mechanics, stealth isn't intangibility. There's still a person occupying physical space that still functions just like everyone else. Someone who's invisible running around like normal or even at 150% speed, often dodging around in a full set of armor would be a pretty loud, easy to spot target even without the ability to see them. Therefore, I think players taking advantage of stealth should be forced to be less mobile to maintain the guise of invisibility.

I think it makes sense to adjust stealth in one or both of the following ways:

• Stealth now reduces movement speed by anywhere from 15-25%. This is always 25% in pvp/wvw (Bonus movement speed granted by Meld in Shadows is reduced to 25%)
• Entering stealth now applies exhaustion for its duration

Applying the first change would apply a slight nerf to stealth mobility in pve, hopefully with the intention of reducing the ability for players to skip certain mechanics. The 25% nerf in pvp seems like a reasonable reduction in movement speed without becoming so restrictive that it would make it impossible to disengage imo. In addition, thieves would now have a unique advantage in stealth while taking shadow arts because they would be the only profession to be able to move at 100% speed while invisible. Nobody should ever be able to move faster than 100% speed in stealth.

The second change would introduce an interesting limit to a player's ability to use stealth defensively, placing more of an emphasis on positioning and using stealth proactively to avoid attacks rather than dodging away in stealth reactively. Interesting strategies and counterplay opportunities would be opened by baiting dodges out of stealth to cripple an enemy's ability to use them while invisible.

I'd also like to add that the application of these changes wouldn't be in a vacuum. If one or both of them proved to be too little, then I feel that stealth durations should be addressed like OP suggested. If certain professions, namely thief, feel like they're underperforming after these changes, then some buffs to trait and skills could help compensate, as well as reductions to skills that apply revealed.

These are feasible, but there's a hiccup that you probably didn't consider: You can grant stealth to others. Anet has always shown the philosophy that allied players musn't affect each other negatively, whether that's debuffs, damage taken, or anything else. For this reason, exhaustion, movement speed reduction, cooldown freeze, and other such changes are off the table as long as stealth is not always a personal choice.

[lysico.1297]

I rather have perm stealth.. Only one ability and longer (30 sec) refresh

[Astyrah.4015]

@lysico.1297 said:I rather have perm stealth.. Only one ability and longer (30 sec) refresh

not saying it's a bad idea but having perm stealth tied to a long/30s cooldown might break Rifle DE's current pve rotation and may require a rework of Death's Judgement (maybe make it a non-stealth skill again or make it more powerful to account for less frequent stealthing) or it may end up not being used at all if not adjusted

[Psycoprophet.8107]

If u reduce movement speed in stealth u may as well delete the backstab mechanic cuz I'd rely on steal far too much and backstabs miss enough as it is and expect to land only ranged skills, that would be a massive mistake. Capping stealth at 6 sec is reasonable tho

[Fueki.4753]

First and foremost, Stealth needs to have more sources of being removed.

Any attack should strip stealth, not only successful ones.Damage should also break stealth.

[ASP.8093]

@Fueki.4753 said:Damage should also break stealth.

Wouldn't this functionally make any class that poops AOEs immune to sneak attacks?

[Fueki.4753]

@ASP.8093 said:

@Fueki.4753 said:Damage should also break stealth.

Wouldn't this functionally make any class that poops AOEs immune to sneak attacks?I think that'd be fine.Stealth shouldn't be in PvP anyway.

[Noah Salazar.5430]

I think it makes sense to adjust stealth in one or both of the following ways:

Stealth now reduces movement speed by anywhere from 15-25%. This is always 25% in pvp/wvw (Bonus movement speed granted by Meld in Shadows is reduced to 25%)Entering stealth now applies exhaustion for its duration

with reworked stealth, you no need it

ther will be 2 typs of stealths

a) is short 3s stealthb) long 6s stealth (aoe) that also pulse and refresh that 6s on evry pulse but that type of skills usualy have over 60s cd

with 3s cap max you can do is change your location, than you need use another skill to apply stealth again after 2-3s (cuz of time cap)

so it's risk/reward, as if you change location, you need be ready to attack your opponent before your stealth fade, or move away inaf far from enemy to apply another stealthsome stealth skills can be activated witchout attacking enemys, but remeber still you need time them or your stealth time gona be much shorter,(so your cd refresh much longer compare when you spam all 5 stealth skills at one go)

all that forcing you to pay attention more to your skills and steal 50% of your focus (or you can lose stealth for 1s making you visable)Prob for veterans thiefs thats not big change, but less skilled ones will have harder time to preper abush/backstab to you

same as it will make you time your dodge/block or other skill as you allways will know that stealth is for 3s so ennemy will attack in next 2-3s or if he not show up, you know he wasted another stealth, so you can preper your next dodge/block/evade

Remeber if enemy miss, he will get Reveled

I rather have perm stealth.. Only one ability and longer (30 sec) refresh

thats what anet admins/game master do xdbut nah it culd be too much unbalanced until you make 3m circle zone if enemy get too close he can see youpass on that

First and foremost, Stealth needs to have more sources of being removed.

Any attack should strip stealth, not only successful ones.Damage should also break stealth.

Disagree, that will nerf stealth spells too much

with 3-6 stealth cap you will can use your brain more often to predict wher enemy will want go, and that will be part of that mechanic

Also when you hiting stealth target you see that you casued dmg to "target" that way you can also tell that enemy is in front of you

Making reveled on evry attack culd be too strong

[Fueki.4753]

@Noah Salazar.5430 said:that will nerf stealth spells too muchThat's exactly the point.Stealth has no business being as effective as it currently is in GW2.

The only use Stealth should have is to sneak past enemies, or sneak up to them for one chance of a Stealth attack.And if they get hit while trying to do so, their chance is over.

[ASP.8093]

@Fueki.4753 said:

@Noah Salazar.5430 said:that will nerf stealth spells too muchThat's exactly the point.Stealth has no business being as effective as it currently is in GW2.

The only use Stealth should have is to sneak past enemies, or sneak up to them for

one

chance of a Stealth attack.And if they get hit while trying to do so, their chance is over.

They're not going to do it your way because it would mean having to sit there and redesign a whole class, root and branch, and a lot of people would hate them for it when they finished.

[Fueki.4753]

@ASP.8093 said:

@Fueki.4753 said:

@Noah Salazar.5430 said:that will nerf stealth spells too muchThat's exactly the point.Stealth has no business being as effective as it currently is in GW2.

The only use Stealth should have is to sneak past enemies, or sneak up to them for

one

chance of a Stealth attack.And if they get hit while trying to do so, their chance is over.

They're not going to do it your way because it would mean having to sit there and redesign a whole class, root and branch, and a lot of people would hate them for it when they finished.

Actually, the reason they are not going to do it is that it would require a lot more effort than just changing numbers.

Arenanet has repeatedly shown not to care about ruining professions and getting hated for it.Additionally, changing Shadow Arts into a defensive trait line, rather than a coward-runaway one, is far from redesigning the whole profession.

[Dadnir.5038]

Why not just have stealth make you look "transparent" to your foes when you aren't flanking/behind them and you are within 600 range? In PvE it won't change anything and in PvP/WvW it will just be a bit harder to abuse it. The reduced base movement speed while in stealth is a must as well, thought.

Honestly I seem to recall that it's how swtor handle it and it work somehow.

[Sobx.1758]

@"Dadnir.5038" said:Why not just have stealth make you look "transparent" to your foes when you aren't flanking/behind them and you are within 600 range? In PvE it won't change anything and in PvP/WvW it will just be a bit harder to abuse it. The reduced base movement speed while in stealth is a must as well, thought.

Honestly I seem to recall that it's how swtor handle it and it work somehow.

Because then it becomes almost as useless as after implementing fueki's idea.

[frareanselm.1925]

the only valid rework is fix permastealth

[Leonidrex.5649]

most of your "reworks" mostly turn stealth into useless garbage, in GW2 most abilities can be cast without target, this means that transparent target will be hit with most skills anyways, the only problem with stealth is how much its stacked by combo fields by thief or when used in a big setting, having entire team stealth/restealth for 20s+ is retarded.

[Lonami.2987]

Direct damage should remove stealth, simple as that. No need for overcomplicated reworks. Also, stealthed players should get a transparency effect instead of becoming completely invisible, so they can still be detected if you pay attention.

Once you do that, you can buff stealth as much as you want, since it would be far easier to counter now. The revealed effect can be removed for all I care.

[Sobx.1758]

@"Lonami.2987" said:Direct damage should remove stealth, simple as that.

Nope, it shouldn't, simple as that.

Also, stealthed players should get a transparency effect instead of becoming completely invisible, so they can still be detected if you pay attention.

No, they shouldn't, because then what's the point of it?

Once you do that, you can buff stealth as much as you want, since it would be far easier to counter now. The revealed effect can be removed for all I care.

After implementing those changes how exactly would you want to "buff stealth as much as you want"? What exactly are you talking about here?

[Svarty.8019]

@Lonami.2987 said:stealthed players should get a transparency effect instead of becoming completely invisible, so they can still be detected if you pay attention.

This is a wonderful compromise that I'm sure we all agree on (finally). I'm sure the developers will see reason.

@Lonami.2987 said:Direct damage should remove stealth, simple as that.

I agree wholeheartedly. Whilst I believe that stealth as a gaming mechanic should be shut in a dark room and never mentioned again, I fear that I must compromise, and this, I suppose, is an okay-ish deal.

[Raiden The Beast.3016]

Stealth is fine as it is ...I even think all these anti stealth thief mechs. r just laughable on top of noodle dmg. If u disagree show me ur stealth high lvl op gameplay video proof ... NO? Ok than stfu...

[Svarty.8019]

@Raiden The Beast.3016 said:Stealth is fine as it is ...I even think all these anti stealth thief mechs. r just laughable on top of noodle dmg. If u disagree show me ur stealth high lvl op gameplay video proof ... NO? Ok than kitten...

The fact that thieves, and almost exclusively thieves, have continually churned out said gameplay videos despite the introduction of anti stealth mechs says a lot about how ridiculous the mechanic is.

[Sobx.1758]

@Svarty.8019 said:

@Lonami.2987 said:stealthed players should get a transparency effect instead of becoming completely invisible, so they can still be detected if you pay attention.

This is a wonderful compromise that I'm sure we all agree on (finally). I'm sure the developers will see reason.

@Lonami.2987 said:Direct damage should remove stealth, simple as that.

I agree wholeheartedly. Whilst I believe that stealth as a gaming mechanic should be shut in a dark room and never mentioned again, I fear that I must compromise, and this, I suppose, is an okay-ish deal.

Bait, sure, but where exactly is that "compromise" you're talking about here?

[Helicity.3416]

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Svarty.8019 said:

@Lonami.2987 said:stealthed players should get a transparency effect instead of becoming completely invisible, so they can still be detected if you pay attention.

This is a wonderful compromise that I'm sure we all agree on (finally). I'm sure the developers will see reason.

@Lonami.2987 said:Direct damage should remove stealth, simple as that.

I agree wholeheartedly. Whilst I believe that stealth as a gaming mechanic should be shut in a dark room and never mentioned again, I fear that I must compromise, and this, I suppose, is an okay-ish deal.

Bait, sure, but where exactly is that "compromise" you're talking about here?

Don't bother talking to svarty, he's been stuck in a loser mentality for seven years.He's said skill is an unfair advantage, and skilled players win too much.