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HoT = Dark Souls ? Casual Gamer perspective.


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It seems like the design for HoT was supposed to make us feel some pain right out. The jungle is a pain to navigate, and then you earn updraft and jumping mushrooms, and stop tearing your hair out trying to get around Verdant Brink.

I can see this as viable design. Get humbled by the game, then earn things that make you feel more powerful. The problem, again, is that isn't the way the core game is designed, so a newcomer to HoT doesn't necessarily have the hope that things will get better.

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I quit when HoT was first released, it was absolutely the worst thing Anet had ever released open world wise. It was too much for me and i had played through most of season 1 and all of season 2. Then anet started season 3 and that got me back into the game and i eventually went back and finished HoT, it's STILL hard, but not as hard as it once was. Now I have all the masteries (icebrood saga included), HoT isn't too terrible nowadays, but i still don't venture there willingly because it wasn't designed correctly. season 3 onwards they've really got the balance right, but HoT is still not in a good place.

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@castlemanic.3198 said:I quit when HoT was first released, it was absolutely the worst thing Anet had ever released open world wise. It was too much for me and i had played through most of season 1 and all of season 2. Then anet started season 3 and that got me back into the game and i eventually went back and finished HoT, it's STILL hard, but not as hard as it once was. Now I have all the masteries (icebrood saga included), HoT isn't too terrible nowadays, but i still don't venture there willingly because it wasn't designed correctly. season 3 onwards they've really got the balance right, but HoT is still not in a good place.

What specifically about HoT is difficult for you?

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@Ayrilana.1396 said:What specifically about HoT is difficult for you?

The balance of enemy encounters while soloing and the frequency of enemies. The frequency of enemies isn't an issue once you get mounts since you can zoom past most enemies and head towards your destination. HoT wasn't designed with the casual solo player in mind, and the nerf doesn't do enough to truly set it to the right balance.

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@castlemanic.3198 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:What specifically about HoT is difficult for you?

The balance of enemy encounters while soloing and the frequency of enemies. The frequency of enemies isn't an issue once you get mounts since you can zoom past most enemies and head towards your destination. HoT wasn't designed with the casual solo player in mind, and the nerf doesn't do enough to truly set it to the right balance.

Where are you encountering a ton of enemies? Which enemies are you having trouble killing solo?

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@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:What specifically about HoT is difficult for you?

The balance of enemy encounters while soloing and the frequency of enemies. The frequency of enemies isn't an issue once you get mounts since you can zoom past most enemies and head towards your destination. HoT wasn't designed with the casual solo player in mind, and the nerf doesn't do enough to truly set it to the right balance.

Where are you encountering a ton of enemies? Which enemies are you having trouble killing solo?

What are you trying to get at?

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@castlemanic.3198 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:What specifically about HoT is difficult for you?

The balance of enemy encounters while soloing and the frequency of enemies. The frequency of enemies isn't an issue once you get mounts since you can zoom past most enemies and head towards your destination. HoT wasn't designed with the casual solo player in mind, and the nerf doesn't do enough to truly set it to the right balance.

Where are you encountering a ton of enemies? Which enemies are you having trouble killing solo?

What are you trying to get at?

Probably trying to find out which part of HOT you found difficult but for some reason you didn't find POF or Season 3 difficult, as if HOT is more difficult than those.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:Probably trying to find out which part of HOT you found difficult but for some reason you didn't find POF or Season 3 difficult, as if HOT is more difficult than those.

HoT IS more difficult than season 3 and PoF. I don't understand how you don't see that. The mobs definitely hit harder, are clumped more together, and there's very few areas where you can just enjoy the scenery.

Even with mounts, HoT is still unenjoyable and too imbalanced for casual players.

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@castlemanic.3198 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:Probably trying to find out which part of HOT you found difficult but for some reason you didn't find POF or Season 3 difficult, as if HOT is more difficult than those.

HoT IS more difficult than season 3 and PoF. I don't understand how you don't see that. The mobs definitely hit harder, are clumped more together, and there's very few areas where you can just enjoy the scenery.

Even with mounts, HoT is still unenjoyable and too imbalanced for casual players.

The mobs of HOT don't hit harder than the mobs of POF. Ever fought a Hydra? A Djinn? A Canid? An Abomination? What are you even talking about. Meanwhile the highest damaging HOT mobs die in a -single- hit (like Smokescales or Shadowleapers). Aggro range in POF is much higher too.

Have you ever been to the Desolation or Vabbi without following a huge squad around for bounty hunts? Have you actually played Solo at the lower part of POF? Are you telling me there are many places you can enjoy the scenery in Desolation or Vabbi? Because it looks to me that you are comparing Tangled Depths with Crystal Oasis.

It's rather clear that you have an agenda against HOT, but calling it harder than POF is a clear understatement and I don''t understand how you don't see that. Maybe you remember your first time in HOT years ago when you had zero clue on how to play the game and found it challenging or something.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:The mobs of HOT don't hit harder than the mobs of POF. Ever fought a Hydra? A Djinn? A Canid? An Abomination? What are you even talking about. Meanwhile the highest damaging HOT mobs die in a -single- hit (like Smokescales or Shadowleapers). Aggro range in POF is much higher too.

The mobs DO hit harder, like objectively so, the average HoT mob hits harder than the average PoF mob. Hydras, djinn, canids, and abominations are challenging but not difficult. There's a difference between challenge and difficulty, HoT is difficult AND challenging while PoF is challenging but not difficult. The two terms are not interchangeable. And while yes the aggro range is much higher in PoF, that was to compensate for the mounts (which should be obvious, i don't know why you felt the need to point that out).

Have you ever been to the Desolation or Vabbi without following a huge squad around for bounty hunts? Have you actually played Solo at the lower part of POF? Are you telling me there are many places you can enjoy the scenery in Desolation or Vabbi? Because it looks to me that you are comparing Tangled Depths with Crystal Oasis.

I'm not comparing tangled depths with crystal oasis, i'm comparing the entirety of HoT to the entirety of PoF. I recently played through the HoT story line with some friends of mine and it was STILL difficult. Not as difficult as release thanks to the nerf, but still too difficult for the average solo casual player.

It's rather clear that you have an agenda against HOT, but calling it harder than POF is a clear understatement and I don''t understand how you don't see that. Maybe you remember your first time in HOT years ago when you had zero clue on how to play the game and found it challenging or something.

That's hilarious. HoT IS harder than PoF, that's really plain as day to see. It's not an agenda, it's just fact.

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The jump from vanilla to HoT is pretty sharp for a new player, my concern would be its not really fun for them and they wouldn't continue on to PoF. Those of us with thousands of hours and mounts don't see it, we aren't spending that much time there. But the maps are awful to navigate and to add challenge Anet made irritating mobs that aren't really fun. They did the same in PoF with mobs getting aggro far too far away. These are the people funding the game for us to have future content also.

I recently ran through story with a new Renegade char, came across a guy struggling with the Eye of Zhaitan, I did it in minutes and he called me "very strong". I felt bad knowing this guy was about to finish vanilla story, and maybe go to HoT, where each bit of the story is going to be harder than the Eye encounter. This guy still deserves to experience the story of the game, and with some build guidance and time they would be able to beat it all, but that jump in difficulty, that player is not going to finish HoT or buy PoF. They didn't have the time spent in game we did when HoT came out. It simply won't be fun for them.

The game doesn't need a vast difficulty drop for all future content, but it needs a more linear path from Vanilla to PoF. Events, Raids and Fractals don't need any change.

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@"Bish.8627" said:The jump from vanilla to HoT is pretty sharp for a new player, my concern would be its not really fun for them and they wouldn't continue on to PoF. Those of us with thousands of hours and mounts don't see it, we aren't spending that much time there. But the maps are awful to navigate and to add challenge Anet made irritating mobs that aren't really fun. They did the same in PoF with mobs getting aggro far too far away. These are the people funding the game for us to have future content also.

I recently ran through story with a new Renegade char, came across a guy struggling with the Eye of Zhaitan, I did it in minutes and he called me "very strong". I felt bad knowing this guy was about to finish vanilla story, and maybe go to HoT, where each bit of the story is going to be harder than the Eye encounter. This guy still deserves to experience the story of the game, and with some build guidance and time they would be able to beat it all, but that jump in difficulty, that player is not going to finish HoT or buy PoF. They didn't have the time spent in game we did when HoT came out. It simply won't be fun for them.

The game doesn't need a vast difficulty drop for all future content, but it needs a more linear path from Vanilla to PoF. Events, Raids and Fractals don't need any change.

It already has a vast difficulty drop ice brood saga is a little over core in difficulty

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@"Bish.8627" said:The jump from vanilla to HoT is pretty sharp for a new player

That's normal since there is supposed to be two living world seasons in-between core and hot. A player isn't even required to visit Southsun Cove before going into hot. Those Young Karka are excellent "training" for fresh level 80s to test their abilities.

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@castlemanic.3198 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Where are you encountering a ton of enemies? Which enemies are you having trouble killing solo?

What are you trying to get at?

I was trying to figure out what it is that you're struggling with on the HoT maps and offer advice. I gradually asked more and more specific questions because you weren't really answering why they are difficult for you.

@castlemanic.3198 said:

@castlemanic.3198 said:Hydras, djinn, canids, and abominations are challenging but not difficult.

So you never fought any of those, if you compare them with HOT mobs. Good to know, maybe next time get out of Amnoon in POF and compare the outside with HOT, you will make a more objective comparison.

I've done map completion of both HoT and PoF, I've fought hydras and djinn for fun. You clearly just don't know what you're talking about.

So you said "Hydras, djinn, canids, and abominations are challenging but not difficult" but don't apply that to HoT mobs. Why? Please be specific.

That's hilarious. HoT IS harder than PoF, that's really plain as day to see. It's not an agenda, it's just fact.

Something is not a fact if you say so. Not even close.

It's not fact 'because' i say so. It just is fact.

If it's a fact then the data should be readily available to back this up. Do you have it?

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@"Ayrilana.1396" said:I was trying to figure out what it is that you're struggling with on the HoT maps and offer advice. I gradually asked more and more specific questions because you weren't really answering why they are difficult for you.

So you said "Hydras, djinn, canids, and abominations are challenging but not difficult" but don't apply that to HoT mobs. Why? Please be specific.

HoT enemies do far more damage far more quickly than PoF enemies. That's been my experience with it. i easily get overwhelmed when many enemies ambush me in HoT but in PoF i can survive ambush after ambush. I don't really know how to specify exactly what's difficult with HoT and what makes those enemies tuned out of balance for a casual player like myself. But having played through HoT and PoF recently, i can for sure say that HoT is harder.

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@castlemanic.3198 said:

@"Ayrilana.1396" said:I was trying to figure out what it is that you're struggling with on the HoT maps and offer advice. I gradually asked more and more specific questions because you weren't really answering why they are difficult for you.

So you said "Hydras, djinn, canids, and abominations are challenging but not difficult" but don't apply that to HoT mobs. Why? Please be specific.

HoT enemies do far more damage far more quickly than PoF enemies. That's been my experience with it. i easily get overwhelmed when many enemies ambush me in HoT but in PoF i can survive ambush after ambush. I don't really know how to specify exactly what's difficult with HoT and what makes those enemies tuned out of balance for a casual player like myself. But having played through HoT and PoF recently, i can for sure say that HoT is harder.

Do you have the damage numbers?

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@castlemanic.3198 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Do you have the damage numbers?

I don't, i dont know how to collect that data

I ask because unless you have data then you're simply going by your experience. For example,raiders may find raids easy from their experience but this doesn't necessarily mean that raids are easy as a fact. It only means that raids are easy for them. Just like how HoT is more difficult for you than elsewhere based on your experience playing but this doesn't necessarily mean that HoT is actually more difficult. When you base something on your experience, it becomes subjective and no longer a fact.

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@Ayrilana.1396 said:I ask because unless you have data then you're simply going by your experience. For example,raiders may find raids easy from their experience but this doesn't necessarily mean that raids are easy as a fact. It only means that raids are easy for them. Just like how HoT is more difficult for you than elsewhere based on your experience playing but this doesn't necessarily mean that HoT is actually more difficult. When you base something on your experience, it becomes subjective and no longer a fact.

So does my experience count for nothing? This thread exists for a reason.

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@castlemanic.3198 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:I ask because unless you have data then you're simply going by your experience. For example,raiders may find raids easy from their experience but this doesn't necessarily mean that raids are easy as a fact. It only means that raids are easy for them. Just like how HoT is more difficult for you than elsewhere based on your experience playing but this doesn't necessarily mean that HoT is actually more difficult. When you base something on your experience, it becomes subjective and no longer a fact.

So does my experience count for nothing? This thread exists for a reason.

To other players yes it count for nothing, to you no it counts since its your experience.

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@Cuks.8241 said:

@castlemanic.3198 said:Even with mounts, HoT is still unenjoyable and too imbalanced for casual players.

Casual has nothing to do with it. I am a casual (a few hours per week) and can and play all the content that gw2 offers.

You must have missed the part where i mentioned that i map completed HoT and PoF. I also have all the masteries. I can play all the content too, but that doesn't mean that HoT was balanced correctly.

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HoT map completion has been done with a level 2 character several times; champ hero points obviously leeched from an HP train. The maps do not have swarms of enemies in locations except for during certain events. The enemies all have similar mechanics just like the PoF enemies. You listed the djinn, hydras, and one other mob type as being challenging but not difficult and yet HoT enemies really are no different from them. I've asked which HoT enemies you have found difficulties with but you never answered the question. I asked where in HoT that you encounters swarms of enemies which you never answered.

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