Kuunavang and the Voice

[Tyson.5160]

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@"Taylan.2187" said:I believe Jormag will be dead soon but don't know how DSD and especially Primordius fit into this story. The voice could simply be DSD, or its champion, which would make sense. (Last surviving DSD trying to complete the cycle of destruction?) But what's with Primordius then?? Finishing him off in some LW season would be super lame, even if there was time for a whole new LW season after Icebrood is over.I don't really see why killing Primordus in an LW season, or an expansion, really matters. LW seasons and expansions are pretty much the same thing, except expansions drop all at once, while LW seasons release over time. We would get the same amount of maps/achievements/skins/story either way.

That being said, I think people are taking "End of Dragons" too literally. I doubt all of the Elder Dragons will be dead by the end of it. The expansion will probably deal more with us finding a way to safely end them without the world blowing up, removing the last barrier we have to killing them, rather then the actual KILLING of the last Elder Dragon. The "End of Dragons" referring more to the end the final power they lord over us.

I’m still holding to the belief that Primordus will be the last dragon to die. He’ll escape deeper into Tyria or flee into the mists or something. Given that Primordus has been kinda bobbling in and out of the story as a reminder that he is still a threat, as well as the big dragon antagonist that may or may not end up being Aurene’s opposite of the dragon of light, and transforming into the dragon of darkness.

What I also notice is the lack of variation with destroyers. We have what the crab, troll, harpy, mega destroyer and wyvern destroyer models? We now have the inclusion of the stone summit, which beefs up Primordus arsenal a bit as well.

All of the other dragons seem to have a wide array of minions, yet Primordus is lacking. Is this because eventually Primordus is going to have access to all the different dragon spheres of influence and this will be reflected in light blue/blue and purple destroyers as well, along with the death/vine and regular destroyer models?

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

@Tyson.5160 said:I’m still holding to the belief that Primordus will be the last dragon to die. He’ll escape deeper into Tyria or flee into the mists or something. Given that Primordus has been kinda bobbling in and out of the story as a reminder that he is still a threat, as well as the big dragon antagonist that may or may not end up being Aurene’s opposite of the dragon of light, and transforming into the dragon of darkness.

What I also notice is the lack of variation with destroyers. We have what the crab, troll, harpy, mega destroyer and wyvern destroyer models? We now have the inclusion of the stone summit, which beefs up Primordus arsenal a bit as well.

All of the other dragons seem to have a wide array of minions, yet Primordus is lacking. Is this because eventually Primordus is going to have access to all the different dragon spheres of influence and this will be reflected in light blue/blue and purple destroyers as well, along with the death/vine and regular destroyer models?I also believe Primordus will be the last to die to do thematic parallels to GW1.

Also, the Stone Summit aren't under Primordus's command, only that one group was. Most of the Stone Summit had made a treay with the Deldrimor, and followed them into turning to stone and fighting the destroyers.

[Tyson.5160]

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:I’m still holding to the belief that Primordus will be the last dragon to die. He’ll escape deeper into Tyria or flee into the mists or something. Given that Primordus has been kinda bobbling in and out of the story as a reminder that he is still a threat, as well as the big dragon antagonist that may or may not end up being Aurene’s opposite of the dragon of light, and transforming into the dragon of darkness.

What I also notice is the lack of variation with destroyers. We have what the crab, troll, harpy, mega destroyer and wyvern destroyer models? We now have the inclusion of the stone summit, which beefs up Primordus arsenal a bit as well.

All of the other dragons seem to have a wide array of minions, yet Primordus is lacking. Is this because eventually Primordus is going to have access to all the different dragon spheres of influence and this will be reflected in light blue/blue and purple destroyers as well, along with the death/vine and regular destroyer models?I also believe Primordus will be the last to die to do thematic parallels to GW1.

Also, the Stone Summit aren't under Primordus's command, only that one group was. Most of the Stone Summit had made a treay with the Deldrimor, and followed them into turning to stone and fighting the destroyers.

Just given by the text, it sounds like stone summit are no more other then this group that we are dealing with.

“A messenger has returned from the peace agreements. The other Summit clans have agreed to reunify with Deldrimor.”

Reunify with my understanding would mean no more Stone Summit.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@"serialkicker.5274" said:You aren't mistaking a teaser for trailer by chance? Because comparing teaser to a trailer would be unfair, wouldn't you agree? (I took PoF teaser as example, because we only have teaser so far for third expansion. Unless I'm terribly missing something in teaser. I'm by far not an expert on lore.

I'm aware it's a teaser and won't be telling much, but even the very first PoF teaser showcased Vlast directly, though at the time we didn't know it was Vlast (we weren't expecting gold crystals), and the premise was still the same. And the Hot teaser still showcased Faolain and the Exalted. Mind you, those teasers gave so much more than this one - or the core game's teaser which was just .05 seconds of Zhaitan.

Again, I'll point to

what started this discussion

in the first place: the theory (that I disagree with) that Lyssa will be playing a major role.That's fine if you have your theory and reasoning, but let's go back and see where our discussion started and what I quoted you on. Quoting you below.Why bring in the gods in an expansion about dragons, and titled about dragons?So, all I asked was "Why not?" Then you proceeded to give reasoning that you gave and I simply didn't find them convincing.

The issue I'm seeing here, is that you took a line, brought it out of context and asked for an answer to a question about the line while being out of context, and I gave an answer considering the original quote's context which you found unconvincing because it was in context.

And major roles

do

need build up, especially if they fill the same role as a previous major antagonist.Not necessarily. Sometimes it's nice to have a surprise. It certainly isn't "required". Would people have a problem if Bubbles suddenly appear out of nowhere, since he barely has any buildup, if you even want to call that a build up. If it fits the story and it's done right, I don't think people would have a problem.Even plot twists need build up - they just shouldn't be obvious build up. When you don't have build up for a plot twist, we get shit like the Lazarus/Balthazar reveal (technically that did have buildup but the buildup was so subtle that they're only noticeable after scrutinizing with hindsight).

Of course, I won't argue that such hints must be in the teaser trailer - in fact, I would argue the opposite. But that only furthers my original argument of the teaser not hinting at the return of any god, let alone specifically Lyssa.

Does it make it impossible? No, and it wouldn't be the first time the playerbase sees A, and argues that E is the destination, while lacking B, C, and D. The sylvari being dragon minion revelation is proof of that (all/most original arguments for that were ironically false or unfounded - such as the Pale Tree being cleansed by Ventari just because Mordy was sleeping just because Glint "freed herself" (which was disproven in the Arah dungeon); or the notion that dragon minions are immune to corruption from other dragons being "proof" of sylvari being minions because they're immune (disproven in CoE, and later again in S2 and HoT promotions - it's their connection to the Pale Tree that prevents corruption, not their nature as minions - that theory was effectively getting the outcome right with all the wrong logical deductions).

@Tyson.5160 said:Just given by the text, it sounds like stone summit are no more other then this group that we are dealing with.

“A messenger has returned from the peace agreements. The other Summit clans have agreed to reunify with Deldrimor.”

Reunify with my understanding would mean no more Stone Summit.

Correct. We've known since pre-release that the Stone Summit had, post-GW1, rejoined Deldrimor as the call of the Rite of the Great Dwarf called for all dwarves to turn to stone. There might have been some other pockets that refused/resisted, but without doing similar antics as this group, then they would have turned to stone and joined the rest regardless.

What would be curious would be if this groups' antics let Primordus to be capable of corrupting all other stone dwarves. Similar thing happened with Kralkatorrik - after he ate Balthazar's freed magic, he was suddenly capable of corrupting weak divine magic that the djinn used for protection. Primordus may have eventually gained the ability to corrupt stone dwarves, which would explain why they suddenly stopped holding back Primordus (other than outright being genocided a techniclaly second time).

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

@Tyson.5160 said:Just given by the text, it sounds like stone summit are no more other then this group that we are dealing with.

“A messenger has returned from the peace agreements. The other Summit clans have agreed to reunify with Deldrimor.”

Reunify with my understanding would mean no more Stone Summit.Yes, and when 99% of your group goes off and does something, and you don't, that doesn't really make you part of the group now does it?

The Stone Summit don't exist, because they went back to the Deldrimor. There is just this group of former Stone Summit that got corrupted. So the original statement I replied to, the one that claimed the Stone Summit are now part of Primordus's arsenal is wrong, they aren't. The Stone Summit rejoined the Deldrimor, and turned into Stone Dwarves who fought Primordus's minions.

[castlemanic.3198]

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:Just given by the text, it sounds like stone summit are no more other then this group that we are dealing with.

“A messenger has returned from the peace agreements. The other Summit clans have agreed to reunify with Deldrimor.”

Reunify with my understanding would mean no more Stone Summit.Yes, and when 99% of your group goes off and does something, and you don't, that doesn't really make you part of the group now does it?

The Stone Summit don't exist, because they went back to the Deldrimor. There is just this group of former Stone Summit that got corrupted. So the original statement I replied to, the one that claimed the Stone Summit are now part of Primordus's arsenal is wrong, they aren't. The Stone Summit rejoined the Deldrimor, and turned into Stone Dwarves who fought Primordus's minions.

I am so sorry for distracting from the main topic, but i can't really find any lore stating that those stone summit were corrupted by primordus, is there any chance you or anyone in this thread can direct me to that? I tried googling it but couldn't find the answer.

[serialkicker.5274]

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

The issue I'm seeing here, is that you took a line, brought it out of context and asked for an answer to a question about the line while being out of context, and I gave an answer considering the original quote's context which you found unconvincing because it was in context.I didn't bring it out of context. I read your posts before I made mine. Your statement sounded to me like a separate thing, question on its own. It sounded to me like "Despite all the reasoning I gave of not seeing it happen, why would gods even be in expansion that is about dragons?" If you meant otherwise, then you worded it badly. If you would word it in a way that would be clear you are talking about your opinion, like "I don't feel it's likely to happen..." or "I don't see enough hints, proof to see it happen..." or "considering what we know and considering reasons I gave, I don't think we'll see gods in expansion" or something like that. Instead you put out a general question "Why would gods be in a expansion focused on dragons?" I understand if it's a misunderstanding, but that's what I got from it and I didn't feel like I'm pulling it out of context.

Even plot twists need build up - they just shouldn't be obvious build up. When you don't have build up for a plot twist, we get kitten like the Lazarus/Balthazar reveal (technically that did have buildup but the buildup was so subtle that they're only noticeable after scrutinizing with hindsight).Lyssa already has a build up. So, not sure why you keep going with this idea.Of course, I won't argue that such hints must be in the teaser trailer - in fact, I would argue the opposite. But that only furthers my original argument of the teaser not hinting at the return of any god, let alone specifically Lyssa.It's a teaser. And even here we don't know much of what it means. I highly doubt you knew much of what's about to happen in PoF, just by watching PoF teaser.And certainly, there were many things in PoF that had impact in story, but weren't seen in teaser.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@"serialkicker.5274" said:I didn't bring it out of context. I read your posts before I made mine. Your statement sounded to me like a separate thing, question on its own.

It was the second sentence directly under a quote, and the sentence in question - as well as both sentences surrounding it - were about the same topic as said quote. In fact, the entire rest of the post under the quote was in response to that quote, and clearly so, since it all talks about hints to Lyssa in the teaser / her involvement in the expansion.

So how you viewed it as a separate thing is more than a bit odd.

Lyssa already has a build up. So, not sure why you keep going with this idea.In-game? Barely. It's literally just four lines of text, and only two are directly related. The community is just blowing those four lines way out of proportion after a confirmation that one of them was intentional.

In the teaser? Not at all, as far as we know. And it was the teaser - this expansion - which I am talking about.

[Tyson.5160]

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@"Tyson.5160" said:Just given by the text, it sounds like stone summit are no more other then this group that we are dealing with.

“A messenger has returned from the peace agreements. The other Summit clans have agreed to reunify with Deldrimor.”

Reunify with my understanding would mean no more Stone Summit.Yes, and when 99% of your group goes off and does something, and you don't, that doesn't really make you part of the group now does it?

The Stone Summit don't exist, because they went back to the Deldrimor. There is just this group of former Stone Summit that got corrupted. So the original statement I replied to, the one that claimed the Stone Summit are now part of Primordus's arsenal is wrong, they aren't. The Stone Summit rejoined the Deldrimor, and turned into Stone Dwarves who fought Primordus's minions.

Well, according to the rest of the text, they believe they are Stone Summit and they keep the same names for when you fight them in game.

What I’m saying is this left over group of Stone Summit are now apart of Primordus’s army because simply they are. The rest got amalgamated back into the Deldrimor, so essentially the last true Stone Summit, ones that held true to the beliefs are now minions of Primordus and according to the text their are now mindless thralls, enslaved to the fire dragon.

“The other Summit clans have agreed to reunify with Deldrimor. We cannot submit to this weakness; we will never be their tools. It is better for us to forge our own path than to submit to ideologies that undermine the core of our being.”

“Their talk of our fate is an excuse for the corruption they have embraced. We will not be their soldiers. Our transformation does not make us "brethren." We have nothing in common other than our race. They are misguided. They do not represent us.

The Summit stands alone at the top.“

With the other Stone Summit clans back with the Deldrimor, that only leaves this clan left, which then leaves them ultimately being pawns to Primordus.