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Should dps meters get banned?


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@Hesione.9412 said:

Good grief, running Taco is cheating, specifically in guild mission races?

What is it then? That's like saying turning wallhack on is not cheating. Both show you something that you aren't suppose to see and wasn't meant to be seen that way, so you have an edge over others.This is how some people react to those who use taco. I just shared my experience, seeing other people who want to do the mission the regular way and they get discouraged. So how is that helpful?

@"Shikaru.7618" said:Sounds like in your example a dpsmeter was helpful to prove you were pulling your weight and those making baseless claims without it should really get it. So why are we banning them again?

How did it help? He insulted us and we blocked him. At no point ever, in all the years I have played the game, I didn't hear anyone apologize for making a mistake or not making sense with his insults. People get triggered easily and then they feel like insulting others in order for them to feel better about themselves. That guy didn't learn anything that day. He had meter on because he told us, but he didn't explain how I'm doing bad dps. I assumed it was just "you are scrapper, if you would play meta class, you could do more damage" kinda logic, but who knows. This was "all welcome" lfg btw. I get a lot of such people. They just join, probably because they don't want to wait for proper lfg. If run goes smooth, they might not say anything, but as soon as something might go wrong, some people loose their shit, as if the world is suddenly collapsing, because someone died. So, yeah, that guy didn't learn anything and will do same thing again next time.

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some people here are just weird. how can anyone call a dps-checker cheating? learn the meaning of the term. there's people who really cheat in the game, but that isn't connected in any kinda to dps meters - in fact esp those won't need or use dps checking, bc to set your dmg scale / movement speed +500%, melt through walls, under the ground stealth, etc etc you don't need much brain or skill. it's known to exist and for years and people don't get banned for it.

and here you guys are, crying about getting called out for playing weak or random builds in Endgame content :sleeping:

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@serialkicker.5274 said:

@serialkicker.5274 said:Because we are talking about third party tool that is quite obviously not needed and only provides opportunity for people to abuse it

It quite obviously provides not only opportunity to abuse it, but also a ton of profit. Just like
any other tool
in this very universe.I know, total vanity. You, offended casuals, dont care about reading and thinking about what veterans are trying to teach you on 7 pages already.

Also knifes, scissors, wrenches, hammers, cars and bottles provide opportunity for people to abuse them and eventually kill other people.Lets ban all these tools, yes? Your pure logic

That's hilarious. We are going into extremes then, huh? Cheats and bots are also utility. I guess we shouldn't ban them, with your logic.

I can say with confidence that I am capable of utilizing knifes and cars without breaking any rules. How would someone who is using cheats or bots when playing gw2 play the game without breaking any rules?

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@"Dante.1508" said:No it represents the views of the raiding portion of the Forum community.I'm not a "raiding portion of the Forum community". If anything, i am heavily in the camp that would have been way happier if raids were never added in the game. I'm just someone that prefers to appoint blame where it is really due (so, at the content itself). As i see it, blaming ArcDPS for what is happening is as sensible as blaming infection tests for Covid. ArcDPS is not the cause of many issues people in this thread have trouble with. It's merely a byproduct. The real cause is coupling the existence of content where dps matters a lot with game design that causes massive dps disparity within player community. ArcDPS is just a tool that lets some group of players deal with some negative consequences of game design. Nothing more. Blaming it for anything is completely missing the issue at large.

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@Katary.7096 said:

@serialkicker.5274 said:Because we are talking about third party tool that is quite obviously not needed and only provides opportunity for people to abuse it

It quite obviously provides not only opportunity to abuse it, but also a ton of profit. Just like
any other tool
in this very universe.I know, total vanity. You, offended casuals, dont care about reading and thinking about what veterans are trying to teach you on 7 pages already.

Also knifes, scissors, wrenches, hammers, cars and bottles provide opportunity for people to abuse them and eventually kill other people.Lets ban all these tools, yes? Your pure logic

That's hilarious. We are going into extremes then, huh? Cheats and bots are also utility. I guess we shouldn't ban them, with your logic.

I can say with confidence that I am capable of utilizing knifes and cars without breaking any rules. How would someone who is using cheats or bots when playing gw2 play the game without breaking any rules?

Well, look above. People think using taco for ability akin to wallhack in other games is not considered cheating.Plus, there are plenty of countermeasures that auto detect cheats in various games. No need for you to even misuse them or hurt anyone with them. But, let's play your game. Let's say I use bots to gather materials for me. I then use those materials to upgrade my personal guild hall that no one else has access to. I didn't break any laws or hurt anyone.Or even If I decided to donate those materials to new players, I wouldn't break any laws with that.

@kamikharzeeh.8016 said:some people here are just weird. how can anyone call a dps-checker cheating?Can you quote anyone who said that. I must have missed it.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:As i see it, blaming ArcDPS for what is happening is as sensible as blaming infection tests for Covid. ArcDPS is not the cause of many issues people in this thread have trouble with. It's merely a byproduct. The real cause is coupling the existence of content where dps matters a lot with game design that causes massive dps disparity within player community. ArcDPS is just a tool that lets some group of players deal with some negative consequences of game design. Nothing more. Blaming it for anything is completely missing the issue at large.

Yeah, and cheats are just a byproduct of people's inability to actually beat the game or face the challenge, so they help themselves with it to feel better or to annoy others.Afk farming is just byproduct of people wanting to get loot that they didn't earn.So, people shouldn't have a problem with cheats or afk farming itself.

How is content itself a problem? You can complete all content without any kind of third party tools. Knowing mechanics is often a lot more important that extra 5k of dps. Problem is obviously in players. And if you give them tools to promote their behaviour and simplify it, then they are going to take it, just like if you allow them to exploit a mechanic or bug it, they are going to do it, even though it was not meant to be played that way.

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The main probrem you seem to have is with some people behaviors. Yes there are toxic people around and they would still be toxic without dps meter (probably even more based on the time before meters).That's why @Astralporing.1957 said it's a "byproduct". If you remove it from the game, it won't change a thing for you, some toxic will still join your party without reading the lfg and flame you for whatever reason...Just block them (you can also put a surname like "toxic guy"), report them if they insult, kick and move on.

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The main probrem you seem to have is with some people behaviors. Yes there are toxic people around and they would still be toxic without dps meter (probably even more based on the time before meters).That's why @Astralporing.1957 said it's a "byproduct". If you remove it from the game, it won't change a thing for you, some toxic will still join your party without reading the lfg and flame you for whatever reason...Just block them (you can also put a surname like "toxic guy"), report them if they insult, kick and move on.

There will be toxic people whether you ban cheaters or not. So what's your point?

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The main probrem you seem to have is with some people behaviors. Yes there are toxic people around and they would still be toxic without dps meter (probably even more based on the time before meters).That's why @Astralporing.1957 said it's a "byproduct". If you remove it from the game, it won't change a thing for you, some toxic will still join your party without reading the lfg and flame you for whatever reason...Just block them (you can also put a surname like "toxic guy"), report them if they insult, kick and move on.

There will be toxic people whether you ban cheaters or not. So what's your point?

Thing is your issue is not because of meters and it's not a cheat either (Anet say it's ok as long as it didn't break the tos), so why are you against it?

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The main probrem you seem to have is with some people behaviors. Yes there are toxic people around and they would still be toxic without dps meter (probably even more based on the time before meters).That's why @Astralporing.1957 said it's a "byproduct". If you remove it from the game, it won't change a thing for you, some toxic will still join your party without reading the lfg and flame you for whatever reason...Just block them (you can also put a surname like "toxic guy"), report them if they insult, kick and move on.

There will be toxic people whether you ban cheaters or not. So what's your point?That you should blame the real reasons, not try to muddle the issue by shifting the discussion to something tangential.If your problem is with toxic people, you should talk about that, not something else. Not every toxic player is using Arc. Not every player using Arc is toxic. So why do you concentrate on Arc, if, in reality, it has nothing to do with the issue at hand?
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@serialkicker.5274 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:As i see it, blaming ArcDPS for what is happening is as sensible as blaming infection tests for Covid. ArcDPS is not the cause of many issues people in this thread have trouble with. It's merely a byproduct. The real cause is coupling the existence of content where dps matters a lot with game design that causes massive dps disparity within player community. ArcDPS is just a tool that lets some group of players deal with some negative consequences of game design. Nothing more. Blaming it for anything is completely missing the issue at large.

Yeah, and cheats are just a byproduct of people's inability to actually beat the game or face the challenge, so they help themselves with it to feel better or to annoy others.Afk farming is just byproduct of people wanting to get loot that they didn't earn.So, people shouldn't have a problem with cheats or afk farming itself.

How is content itself a problem? You can complete all content without any kind of third party tools. Knowing mechanics is often a lot more important that extra 5k of dps. Problem is obviously in players. And if you give them tools to promote their behaviour and simplify it, then they are going to take it, just like if you allow them to exploit a mechanic or bug it, they are going to do it, even though it was not meant to be played that way.

Knowing mechanics is important, but how do you know what that disparity is? You don't use arcdps. Yet you can tell others whether or not it matters to them?

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@Carcharoth Lucian.1378 said:

Thing is your issue is not because of meters and it's not a cheat either (Anet say it's ok as long as it didn't break the tos), so why are you against it?

I didn't say it's a cheat. I'm using cheats as another example in different context, since people clearly have problems with cheats. Yes, my problem is with people in general, but that doesn't mean that giving them tools to promote their bad behavior should be a thing. I've seen enough nonsense that relates to dps meters by now, that I concluded it's a bad idea.

@Astralporing.1957 said:

That you should blame the real reasons, not try to muddle the issue by shifting the discussion to something tangential.If your problem is with toxic people, you should talk about that, not something else. Not every toxic player is using Arc. Not every player using Arc is toxic. So why do you concentrate on Arc, if, in reality, it has nothing to do with the issue at hand?Not every toxic player uses cheats. Does that mean cheats are ok? We shouldn't ban cheats, we should only have an issue with people right? Yeah, in perfect world that could work maybe, but we don't live in that world. So, if you give people tools to do bad things, they will do bad things.Why don't we have open world pvp for example? Because some people think it would be a bad experience and toxic people would enjoy trollingand picking on weak players just to ruin their day. But, with your logic, having an option is not an issue, issue is toxic people who are doing that. So, let's not take away an option for people who want this, we should focus on people being toxic about it. Does that make sense to you?

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@serialkicker.5274 said:

Thing is your issue is not because of meters and it's not a cheat either (Anet say it's ok as long as it didn't break the tos), so why are you against it?

I didn't say it's a cheat. I'm using cheats as another example in different context, since people clearly have problems with cheats. Yes, my problem is with people in general, but that doesn't mean that giving them tools to promote their bad behavior should be a thing. I've seen enough nonsense that relates to dps meters by now, that I concluded it's a bad idea.

And yet you keep comparing meters with cheats.

That you should blame the real reasons, not try to muddle the issue by shifting the discussion to something tangential.If your problem is with toxic people, you should talk about that, not something else. Not every toxic player is using Arc. Not every player using Arc is toxic. So why do you concentrate on Arc, if, in reality, it has nothing to do with the issue at hand?Not every toxic player uses cheats. Does that mean cheats are ok? We shouldn't ban cheats, we should only have an issue with people right? Yeah, in perfect world that could work maybe, but we don't live in that world. So, if you give people tools to do bad things, they will do bad things.Why don't we have open world pvp for example? Because some people think it would be a bad experience and toxic people would enjoy trollingand picking on weak players just to ruin their day. But, with your logic, having an option is not an issue, issue is toxic people who are doing that. So, let's not take away an option for people who want this, we should focus on people being toxic about it. Does that make sense to you?

With your logic any tools that can be used by toxic players should be remove?Then anet should remove all chats cause some people abuse it, they should also ban people which use voice coms cause that's not fair for those who don't and thus can be toxic to them... There is no end..

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@AliamRationem.5172 said:You don't use arcdps.

He does, he already admitted to it earlier in the thread. He just doesn't use the reasoning he uses against others to himself.

@serialkicker.5274 said:

That you should blame the real reasons, not try to muddle the issue by shifting the discussion to something tangential.If your problem is with toxic people, you should talk about that, not something else. Not every toxic player is using Arc. Not every player using Arc is toxic. So why do you concentrate on Arc, if, in reality, it has nothing to do with the issue at hand?Not every toxic player uses cheats.What cheats? Arc? You already admitted to using it as well. So, are you a cheater?

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@serialkicker.5274 said:

@"Carcharoth Lucian.1378" said:

Well my bad if i misunderstood what you said. To me, what you said is basicly : if you give people tools to do bad things, they will do bad things, so the tools are the issue and Anet must ban them.Yes, when you pull out only one or two sentences, you can make all kind of arguments against that. Context matters. That is indeed what I said, but I didn't say Arenanet should ban dps meter based on only that and that is the only reason or factor that contributes to the whole problem.Some people made an argument that tool is not a problem, it's people who are using it. I simply wanted to see if they would use the same logic in other context, so among others, I gave an example of cheats. Then you came along and basically said "Well, if you think tool is the problem, then we should be banning all tools in existence". While I only wanted to test their logical consistency in a hypothetical case. Do you see the problem now? I never said that tool is the only problem and that this is the only factor that contributes to the problem. I even clearly agreed multiple times with some that players indeed play a big role here. But I don't agree that we should only blame people and conclude that tool has absolutely no bearing here.

The problem wirh you liking arcdps to cheats is that one is allowed and the other is not tho, how can you not understand that?And its not the people that use a arcdps thats a problem its some people just like you, your self admited kicking people for just talking about dps right before the end reward of instances.You are part of the problem mate, next time let them get reward and then kick and block. ( nickname so you remember why you blocked)

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@"Linken.6345" said:

The problem wirh you liking arcdps to cheats is that one is allowed and the other is not tho, how can you not understand that?And its not the people that use a arcdps thats a problem its some people just like you, your self admited kicking people for just talking about dps right before the end reward of instances.You are part of the problem mate, next time let them get reward and then kick and block. ( nickname so you remember why you blocked)

A fucking what? You are straight up lying right now. When did I link arcdps to cheating and when did I "admit" I kicked anyone before last reward? You are just making shit up and lying. Stop replying to me, because this is certainly my last reply to you.

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@Linken.6345 said:And its not the people that use a arcdps thats a problem its some people just like you, your self admited kicking people for just talking about dps right before the end reward of instances.You are part of the problem mate, next time let them get reward and then kick and block. ( nickname so you remember why you blocked)

I think you confused with SeikeNz :

@SeikeNz.3526 said:what me and my friends do when someone talk about dps? we kick them at the last boss just like they deserve, i hope more people start doing this so we can get a better community.

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Arcdps is not only a dps meter. It shows healing, boon duration, boons ripped/corrupted etc.

This helps a lot to determine how good a theorycrafted build is.

@Wrong Device.3014 said:Is my DPS fine? I've read this thread and installed AcrDPS. Sometimes I see 1000/s, sometimes 3000/s. Max is 5000. I have no idea - is it normal?

If you are some kind of dps build and if you are doing open world, yes. For fractals/raids, no.

I think it's possible to do around 15k without buffs (might, fury, ranger spirits, warrior banners etc) if you go a meta raid dps builds. I also know full dire stats fire weaver does 15k without buffs in open world.

If you want to increase your dps (why would you want to increase it, I don't know) try practicing/theorycrafting on the golem in lions arch aerodrome.

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@serialkicker.5274 said:

@"Carcharoth Lucian.1378" said:

Well my bad if i misunderstood what you said. To me, what you said is basicly : if you give people tools to do bad things, they will do bad things, so the tools are the issue and Anet must ban them.Yes, when you pull out only one or two sentences, you can make all kind of arguments against that. Context matters. That is indeed what I said, but I didn't say Arenanet should ban dps meter based on only that and that is the only reason or factor that contributes to the whole problem.Some people made an argument that tool is not a problem, it's people who are using it. I simply wanted to see if they would use the same logic in other context, so among others, I gave an example of cheats.It's a good example. Here also, in truth, it's not the program itself that is a problem, it's people using it to get unfair advantage over others. Without cheaters, nobody would use cheats.

The key difference here, one you seem to be missing, is that only cheaters use cheats. That's because the only function of said programs is to give you an unfair advantage. So, while we can ban people for using the tool, we can do that only because we do know, that what they do with it is not allowed. It's not using a cheat program that is a problem, but the action of cheating itself.We cannot do the same with Arc, because Arc primary purpose is completely benign. Yes, it can also be used by toxic people to "justify" toxic behaviour, in the same way a frying pan can be used to smash someone's head, but in said case it's the toxic behaviour that is a problem, not using Arc itself. Just as someone that used a frying pan to hit someone else will get apprehended for the act of aggression, not because they happened to be using a frying pan.

So, basically, the difference between cheats and Arc is that cheats are tools you can only use to do forbidden things, used only by people that do said forbiddent things, while Arc is a tool that sometimes is also used by people that do actionable things (that they would do even if they didn't have arc), but is not meant for anything actionable by itself.

If you can't understand that difference, then i'm sorry, but i can;t help you anymore, the problem is all in you.

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@Wrong Device.3014 said:Is my DPS fine? I've read this thread and installed AcrDPS. Sometimes I see 1000/s, sometimes 3000/s. Max is 5000. I have no idea - is it normal?

Depend on your build. And like @Tayga.3192 said, for most open world contents it is fine.Your dps will only matter (if your role is to dps) in high end pve contents (raids, cm+t4) and pvp/wvw (in competitive group/guilds).

We can talk about it in game if you want some tips (just pm me) :)

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@serialkicker.5274 said:

The problem wirh you liking arcdps to cheats is that one is allowed and the other is not tho, how can you not understand that?And its not the people that use a arcdps thats a problem its some people just like you, your self admited kicking people for just talking about dps right before the end reward of instances.You are part of the problem mate, next time let them get reward and then kick and block. ( nickname so you remember why you blocked)

A kitten what? You are straight up lying right now. When did I link arcdps to cheating and when did I "admit" I kicked anyone before last reward? You are just making kitten up and lying. Stop replying to me, because this is certainly my last reply to you.

You are correct I mixed you up with a guy in "how much dps is enough" in the fractal section of the forums.EditAnd the point I was trying to make to you with my above comment -mix up of people, was typed up alot better Astralporing.1957 above.

@Carcharoth Lucian.1378 said:

@Linken.6345 said:And its not the people that use a arcdps thats a problem its some people just like you, your self admited kicking people for just talking about dps right before the end reward of instances.You are part of the problem mate, next time let them get reward and then kick and block. ( nickname so you remember why you blocked)

I think you confused with SeikeNz :

@SeikeNz.3526 said:what me and my friends do when someone talk about dps? we kick them at the last boss just like they deserve, i hope more people start doing this so we can get a better community.

Yes so I did you read so many threads they start to float together.

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@serialkicker.5274 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:As i see it, blaming ArcDPS for what is happening is as sensible as blaming infection tests for Covid. ArcDPS is not the cause of many issues people in this thread have trouble with. It's merely a byproduct. The real cause is coupling the existence of content where dps matters a lot with game design that causes massive dps disparity within player community. ArcDPS is just a tool that lets some group of players deal with some negative consequences of game design. Nothing more. Blaming it for anything is completely missing the issue at large.

Yeah, and cheats are just a byproduct of people's inability to actually beat the game or face the challenge, so they help themselves with it to feel better or to annoy others.Afk farming is just byproduct of people wanting to get loot that they didn't earn.So, people shouldn't have a problem with cheats or afk farming itself.

How is content itself a problem? You can complete all content without any kind of third party tools. Knowing mechanics is often a lot more important that extra 5k of dps. Problem is obviously in players. And if you give them tools to promote their behaviour and simplify it, then they are going to take it, just like if you allow them to exploit a mechanic or bug it, they are going to do it, even though it was not meant to be played that way.

But they did earn it. The requirements of the game is so low that if I put 1 stack if might on someone doing an event, ive contributed enough to earn rewards. Its not the farmers fault for the game demanding so little. 1 stack of might is the bar set by the game so that's the bar you need to meet. Don't like it? Ask anet to raise the bar for participation.

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