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HoT = Dark Souls ? Casual Gamer perspective.


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@"Dante.1508" said:Considering anet nerfed their content "because it was overtooled and hard on customers" yes there was a mass exodus, do you really think anet would nerf whole expansions (past released content) if there hadn't been a massive backlash and a lot of customers leaving..

When else has anet ever nerfed whole content expansions in the past before HoT.. Never.

The "massive nerf" you are talking about was removing the need for participation to get rewards from meta events, effectively killing HOT maps outside their big meta events. That was in part due to complaints, but also because love going from event to event, on a timer, to get all the rewards they can. With the old participation system that wasn't possible as you had to stay on a map for a long time to increase your participation. In other words the "nerf" they applied to HOT maps was because of player greed, not because of difficulty or challenge.

The article is talking about masteries and I agree the masteries you get in POF are better than those you get in HOT (and of course those you get in the living world)

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Dante.1508" said:Considering anet nerfed their content "because it was overtooled and hard on customers" yes there was a mass exodus, do you really think anet would nerf whole expansions (past released content) if there hadn't been a massive backlash and a lot of customers leaving..

When else has anet ever nerfed whole content expansions in the past before HoT.. Never.

The "massive nerf" you are talking about was removing the need for participation to get rewards from meta events, effectively killing HOT maps outside their big meta events. That was in part due to complaints, but also because love going from event to event, on a timer, to get all the rewards they can. With the old participation system that wasn't possible as you had to stay on a map for a long time to increase your participation. In other words the "nerf" they applied to HOT maps was because of player greed, not because of difficulty or challenge.

The article is talking about masteries and I agree the masteries you get in POF are better than those you get in HOT (and of course those you get in the living world)

They also did large changes to mobs and creatures, not enough imo but they did lower the difficulties drastically.https://www.pcgamer.com/au/guild-wars-2-heart-of-thorns-review/#comment-jumphttps://www.ign.com/articles/2015/11/07/guild-wars-2-heart-of-thorns-review

While those reviews aren't devastating they aren't glowing either.

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@Dante.1508 said:

@Dante.1508 said:Considering anet nerfed their content "because it was overtooled and hard on customers" yes there was a mass exodus, do you really think anet would nerf whole expansions (past released content) if there hadn't been a massive backlash and a lot of customers leaving..

When else has anet ever nerfed whole content expansions in the past before HoT.. Never.

The "massive nerf" you are talking about was removing the need for participation to get rewards from meta events, effectively killing HOT maps outside their big meta events. That was in part due to complaints, but also because love going from event to event, on a timer, to get all the rewards they can. With the old participation system that wasn't possible as you had to stay on a map for a long time to increase your participation. In other words the "nerf" they applied to HOT maps was because of player greed, not because of difficulty or challenge.

The article is talking about masteries and I agree the masteries you get in POF are better than those you get in HOT (and of course those you get in the living world)

They also did large changes to mobs and creatures, not enough imo but they did lower the difficulties drastically.

While those reviews aren't devastating they aren't glowing either.

They didn't do any "large changes" to mobs and creatures though. There were a few small balance changes like removing the complete invulnerability of Itzel Shadowleapers to ranged attacks, now they only evade ranged attacks when they do their "leap", but the changes overall were minor to use the word "drastically". Maybe it's your perception that changed, you got better at playing the game and that's why HOT looked so much easier, because based on patch notes, there was no "drastic" mob overhaul, only some minor changes on some specific mobs

As for the reviews, just be happy they don't review the Living World

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Dante.1508 said:Considering anet nerfed their content "because it was overtooled and hard on customers" yes there was a mass exodus, do you really think anet would nerf whole expansions (past released content) if there hadn't been a massive backlash and a lot of customers leaving..

When else has anet ever nerfed whole content expansions in the past before HoT.. Never.

The "massive nerf" you are talking about was removing the need for participation to get rewards from meta events, effectively killing HOT maps outside their big meta events. That was in part due to complaints, but also because love going from event to event, on a timer, to get all the rewards they can. With the old participation system that wasn't possible as you had to stay on a map for a long time to increase your participation. In other words the "nerf" they applied to HOT maps was because of player greed, not because of difficulty or challenge.

The article is talking about masteries and I agree the masteries you get in POF are better than those you get in HOT (and of course those you get in the living world)

They also did large changes to mobs and creatures, not enough imo but they did lower the difficulties drastically.

While those reviews aren't devastating they aren't glowing either.

They didn't do any "large changes" to mobs and creatures though. There were a few small balance changes like removing the complete invulnerability of Itzel Shadowleapers to ranged attacks, now they only evade ranged attacks when they do their "leap", but the changes overall were minor to use the word "drastically". Maybe it's your perception that changed, you got better at playing the game and that's why HOT looked so much easier, because based on patch notes, there was no "drastic" mob overhaul, only some minor changes on some specific mobs

As for the reviews, just be happy they don't review the Living World

Yes there was, it was significantly lowered, mob populations were lowered and also were damage reduced.https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/66j7zo/the_guild_wars_2_heart_of_thorns_review_how_did/Here is good summary.

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@Dante.1508 said:

@Dante.1508 said:Considering anet nerfed their content "because it was overtooled and hard on customers" yes there was a mass exodus, do you really think anet would nerf whole expansions (past released content) if there hadn't been a massive backlash and a lot of customers leaving..

When else has anet ever nerfed whole content expansions in the past before HoT.. Never.

The "massive nerf" you are talking about was removing the need for participation to get rewards from meta events, effectively killing HOT maps outside their big meta events. That was in part due to complaints, but also because love going from event to event, on a timer, to get all the rewards they can. With the old participation system that wasn't possible as you had to stay on a map for a long time to increase your participation. In other words the "nerf" they applied to HOT maps was because of player greed, not because of difficulty or challenge.

The article is talking about masteries and I agree the masteries you get in POF are better than those you get in HOT (and of course those you get in the living world)

They also did large changes to mobs and creatures, not enough imo but they did lower the difficulties drastically.

While those reviews aren't devastating they aren't glowing either.

They didn't do any "large changes" to mobs and creatures though. There were a few small balance changes like removing the complete invulnerability of Itzel Shadowleapers to ranged attacks, now they only evade ranged attacks when they do their "leap", but the changes overall were minor to use the word "drastically". Maybe it's your perception that changed, you got better at playing the game and that's why HOT looked so much easier, because based on patch notes, there was no "drastic" mob overhaul, only some minor changes on some specific mobs

As for the reviews, just be happy they don't review the Living World

Yes there was, it was significantly lowered, mob populations were lowered and also were damage reduced.
Here is good summary.

You can find the actual patch notes here:https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Game_updates/2016-04-19

They reduced spawns on some "choke points", turned some champions into veterans and reduced the amount of mobs spawing during events. No sweeping changes to the actual difficulty/challenge of mobs. Good luck

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Dante.1508 said:Considering anet nerfed their content "because it was overtooled and hard on customers" yes there was a mass exodus, do you really think anet would nerf whole expansions (past released content) if there hadn't been a massive backlash and a lot of customers leaving..

When else has anet ever nerfed whole content expansions in the past before HoT.. Never.

The "massive nerf" you are talking about was removing the need for participation to get rewards from meta events, effectively killing HOT maps outside their big meta events. That was in part due to complaints, but also because love going from event to event, on a timer, to get all the rewards they can. With the old participation system that wasn't possible as you had to stay on a map for a long time to increase your participation. In other words the "nerf" they applied to HOT maps was because of player greed, not because of difficulty or challenge.

The article is talking about masteries and I agree the masteries you get in POF are better than those you get in HOT (and of course those you get in the living world)

They also did large changes to mobs and creatures, not enough imo but they did lower the difficulties drastically.

While those reviews aren't devastating they aren't glowing either.

They didn't do any "large changes" to mobs and creatures though. There were a few small balance changes like removing the complete invulnerability of Itzel Shadowleapers to ranged attacks, now they only evade ranged attacks when they do their "leap", but the changes overall were minor to use the word "drastically". Maybe it's your perception that changed, you got better at playing the game and that's why HOT looked so much easier, because based on patch notes, there was no "drastic" mob overhaul, only some minor changes on some specific mobs

As for the reviews, just be happy they don't review the Living World

Yes there was, it was significantly lowered, mob populations were lowered and also were damage reduced.
Here is good summary.

You can find the actual patch notes here:

They reduced spawns on some "choke points", turned some champions into veterans and reduced the amount of mobs spawing during events. No sweeping changes to the actual difficulty/challenge of mobs. Good luck

For guildwars 2 that is sweeping changes, especially for a company that "doesn't go back and fix older content" They may not be significant to you but it was the difference in playing or not playing the content for me, pretty significant and i firmly believe there have been a number of stealth nerfs to heart of thorns since.

@"Ayrilana.1396" said:https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Game_updates/2016-04-19

I personally don't like video sources because it wastes so much time to watch them and there's always the chance that they don't actually support the claim that they're being used for.

You ask for sources then disregard them, gg..

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@Dante.1508 said:

@"Ayrilana.1396" said:

I personally don't like video sources because it wastes so much time to watch them and there's always the chance that they don't actually support the claim that they're being used for.

You ask for sources then disregard them, gg..

The thing is that I have seen people use videos as their source while expecting people to not actually watch them. Videos are okay if they're the only source. Since the patch notes are readily accessible, they're the better source.

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@Ayrilana.1396 said:

I personally don't like video sources because it wastes so much time to watch them and there's always the chance that they don't actually support the claim that they're being used for.

You ask for sources then disregard them, gg..

The thing is that I have seen people use videos as their source while expecting people to not actually watch them. Videos are okay if they're the only source. Since the patch notes are readily accessible, they're the better source.

EDIT:

@Dante.1508 said:For guildwars 2 that is sweeping changes, especially for a company that "doesn't go back and fix older content" They may not be significant to you but it was the difference in playing or not playing the content for me, pretty significant and i firmly believe there have been a number of stealth nerfs to heart of thorns since.

Significant should refer to how much the changes affected the map and not how they affected your personal experience. The latter is very subjective.

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@"Dante.1508" said:For guildwars 2 that is sweeping changes, especially for a company that "doesn't go back and fix older content" They may not be significant to you but it was the difference in playing or not playing the content for me, pretty significant and i firmly believe there have been a number of stealth nerfs to heart of thorns since.

As I said, your perception changed because you became better at playing the game when you went back to play HOT again. The changes to mob density and turning champions into veterans was because, as expected, population during off-final events was going to be reduced thanks to the changes in the reward system. When HOT was released, players had to play before the actual meta started, meaning there were enough players to combat high density spawns during events and many champions. For example, on release the Pylon events had to be completed to acquire enough participation to get maximum rewards from the Octovine meta, but after they changed the way they handle rewards, those events were mostly deserted, meaning the higher spawn density and the appearance of champions would make those events impossible to complete for anyone still interested in them.

The changes were made to support the new reward scheme of HOT zones and keep the maps alive when the timer wasn't showing "meta time".

@"Dante.1508" said:You ask for sources then disregard them, gg..

You did not provide a source to verify your claims. You provided a video that supposedly talks about your claims. Provide a time stamp of those videos where it's specifically and without any doubt stated that a specific mob was severely nerfed and then that video is supporting your claims. Then we can check the patch notes to verify if it's the perception of the one making the video that changed, or the actual content.

Edit: and same with the reviews you posted earlier. The way to post SOURCES that back up any claim is to provide a quote where it is clearly supported, and then provide a link for the source of that quote. Expecting someone to go and read an entire article on the off chance that they will find something that supports your claim is not the way to provide sources. Anyone can post links to videos and reviews and then say "hey these are my sources", the question is if there is actually something there that supports the claim in the first place.

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I never had big problems since I used to play all the souls games and played a lot of hard games back in the 90ies. Still the damage output of some enemies in HoT are ridiculous. Never got why there are enemies dishing out single hits of 20-30k. What was the idea behind this? Of course I learned and new most attacks when to dodge or omit damage etc. Still it isn't really leisure time and not necessary in open world imo. That's where instanced content is for IMO.

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@Shikaru.7618 said:Would love to see that, and also provide foot age of myself running the same route as you to explain my thought process. It can also be raw footage so its as low effort as possible. If you have specific time stamps to call out thatd be a good plus.

@Ayrilana.1396

I tried recording using OBS but my computer graphics card can't handle recording and playing GW2 on lowest settings at the same time. The footage is too laggy to be able to tell what's going on. My graphics card died a while back and i haven't had enough money to get a new one so i'm just stuck with this. I can provide the laggy footage if you're so inclined but it's like 1 frame a few seconds at best, so you can't really see what i'm doing.

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Been playing since 2012. HoT was (and still is) very difficult, especially if you are playing solo. Even Map Completion can be a challenge! Before Mounts we sometimes had to wait until a specific event to reach a Poi or Vista. Assuming you have a flying mount, map completion is much easier.

I believe ANET's intended for HoT was for level 80 group content. Even the pre-zone living world for the HoT expansion (Silverwastes) was challenging, I'd suggest joining squads for HoT content or HP Trains if you need hero points. There may even be a guild or two that still farms HoT zones.

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@castlemanic.3198 said:

@Shikaru.7618 said:Would love to see that, and also provide foot age of myself running the same route as you to explain my thought process. It can also be raw footage so its as low effort as possible. If you have specific time stamps to call out thatd be a good plus.

I tried recording using OBS but my computer graphics card can't handle recording and playing GW2 on lowest settings at the same time. The footage is too laggy to be able to tell what's going on. My graphics card died a while back and i haven't had enough money to get a new one so i'm just stuck with this. I can provide the laggy footage if you're so inclined but it's like 1 frame a few seconds at best, so you can't really see what i'm doing.

Link it anyway.

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@Shikaru.7618 said:

@Shikaru.7618 said:Would love to see that, and also provide foot age of myself running the same route as you to explain my thought process. It can also be raw footage so its as low effort as possible. If you have specific time stamps to call out thatd be a good plus.

@"Ayrilana.1396"

I tried recording using OBS but my computer graphics card can't handle recording and playing GW2 on lowest settings at the same time. The footage is too laggy to be able to tell what's going on. My graphics card died a while back and i haven't had enough money to get a new one so i'm just stuck with this. I can provide the laggy footage if you're so inclined but it's like 1 frame a few seconds at best, so you can't really see what i'm doing.

Link it anyway.

I apologise for the terrible lag.

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@ASP.8093 said:@castlemanic.3198

From what I can tell from the video, you will have a much easier time with your build if you pre-charge your mantras before combat. (They'll happily stay charged forever.)

I have the trait where if you cast the mantra you gain health, i use mantra of pain (i think that's it's name) as a quick way of getting a health boost while my healing mantra is on cooldown.

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@"AdamWarlord.6782" said:Edit: This post is to voice a percentage of player base's opinion(may it be a minority, majority, or even just me) on HoT including mine. I have nothing less than love for the game Devs and the community. I have been playing for 2-3 years atleast, and have played some GW1 back in the day. Im not just throwing shade on the HoT content. I am trying to voice my opinion and my experience in a straightforward manner.

Alright, so i just finished up my online classes and studies for my upcoming third year exams and I sit to do my daily completion of a legendary, going on for weeks now. As you can understand, i don't have more than maybe 2-3 hours to play at best. Completion of Eternity and other core legendary weapons took time, but atleast it was doable without frustration and having "fun". When it comes to HoT, I don't know what i am even doing. I am trying to go around the map 90% of the time trying not to die because the floor minion mobs are so OVERPOWERED. I have been playing the game for 2 years, and i have avoided HoT every chance i got because of the same exact reasons i am about to mention.

  1. Its very hard to see, hate the map design and how dark it is in 70% of the places.
  2. Lags way too much on my mid end laptop.
  3. Floor mobs are wayy too overpowered and feel like boss mobs.
  4. Hence because of the same reason above, VERY hard to level up the masteries.
  5. Why do masteries you ask? Because there are wayy too many hero points and other aspects of the completion of HoT, which require doing them. Which sucks.
  6. I can't Solo 50% of the hero points, being a max reaper.
  7. WAIT, I NEED TO DO A ADRENALINE MASTERY TO DO A HERO POINT WHICH CONSUMES MY LIFE WHEN I EAT BACON? WHEN MY LIFE POOL IS 22k??
  8. I actually start to rage(sorry for caps above) playing guild wars 2, which is 90% of the time fun, except when i play HoT.
  9. And due to the above reasons i mentioned above, I actually can feel better playing DARK SOULS than HoT.

I also get why they would be reluctant to nerf the mobs more and bring some player driven balance , but atleast 50% if not more gamers are casual on gw2 and want to play not to rage but to have a good time, i don't mind taking months to get my legendary, BUT ATLEAST let the process be fun. I don't want to get grabbed by a rip off stegosaurus while i'm on my raptor and get 2 shot with 22k health. Any balance, related to player level, or player-online time based balance on mobs, a bit more lighting in HoT maps, a bit more of anything. I get HoT is a very old expansion and that Cantha is coming. But atleast respect your players who are trying their hardest to stick to the game and trying to voice their opinions for a change. And of-course please try providing it. Alright! Back to returning to a checkpoint which takes me halfway across the map from the hero point i just died on, and try to re attempt it with broken armor, because there is no repair station nearby, and i don't have a million repair canisters because i'm a casual.

Edit: I realized they have nerfed the difficulty once, i can't imagine what the mobs were like.Edit: I get where most of you all are coming from, But as i said, its my opinion and many other casual gamers opinion on the content. Leading to a player driven balance, not a balance for everyone.

Then dont play it. PoF is there for you and is MUCH easier than HoT; I dont want the content being made to be easier as it is. This game already isn't challenging in many area's of the PvE field and if you think HoT is bad the new living world maps have much more punishing mobs. Drakkar specifically is a pretty tough world boss, and the newest map has a pretty tough meta too where people constantly die. Id argue that the events in S4 and those maps are ALSO just as hard but for different reasons, Core is hardly played by many unless map completion is required for a solid reason. There is no reason to waste time in those maps once you've completed them as they aren't rewarding, and they have little to nothing to work toward in those maps.

Im pretty casual of a gamer, being a casual of a game does not mean you're bad. Refusing to adapt is what hangs most people up~

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@castlemanic.3198 said:

From what I can tell from the video, you will have a much easier time with your build if you pre-charge your mantras before combat. (They'll happily stay charged forever.)

I have the trait where if you cast the mantra you gain health, i use mantra of pain (i think that's it's name) as a quick way of getting a health boost while my healing mantra is on cooldown.

Honestly, chiming in, from having played mesmer in open world for quite some time now, you really shouldn’t play more than mantra at a time.More than one just slows you down way too much unless you intend to play the content with a group of people around you.

If you really need that additional sustain from the inspiration trait line, I would honestly just stick to the mantra pain and play full core dom/illu/inspiration with ether feast . Other than that, if you don’t have any healing power, no point in taking the healing mantra.

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@castlemanic.3198 said:

From what I can tell from the video, you will have a much easier time with your build if you pre-charge your mantras before combat. (They'll happily stay charged forever.)

I have the trait where if you cast the mantra you gain health, i use mantra of pain (i think that's it's name) as a quick way of getting a health boost while my healing mantra is on cooldown.

I used the exact same trait and skill setup as you and made the same run down that tangled depths path. The only thing I changed was using full berserkers gear. Since its a bit hard to see in your video whats going on I'll try my best to explain my thought process.

This is by no means perfect play so dont try to copy this one for one.
  1. Pre-charge your mantras when solo. Yes you have a trait that gives you healing when you charge a mantra. However, lets break down the logistics of how that trait is used. Since you have no healing power investment, the amount you are healed for is going to be pretty low. In fact, I would say in most situations the time it takes you to charge your mantra, you'll have likely taken more damage than you're healing back. Also a large portion of the power budget in that trait is that it heals 5 allies. Since you're solo, you're essentially getting only 20% benefit from the trait. You're better off getting the instant cast benefit of your mantras rather than saving it for when you need healing.
  2. Know your enemy types. Chrono has a ton of CC built in so it's very good at shutting down the biggest threat in a group of enemies. You'll notice that each time there was a big veteran with a break bar, all of my CC instantly went on it to stun it and burst it. Against cavaliers I (tried) to stand behind or to the side of them because I know they'll charge forward causing a knockback or breathe fire causing heavy damage. Against the hammer mordrem, I either prepared a block or stood behind them to get out of the smash attack.
  3. Use terrain to manipulate enemy movement. You'll notice that a couple times I chose to hide around a corner or behind a rock in order to get enemies to path a certain way. Before I engage, I know a cavalier generally has deadly attacks that hit straight in front of it that it can use at range. This means in an open field if I walk straight at it, I'm at a disadvantage. It can charge at me before I get to it, breathe fire at me or chuck its spear at me. Instead, at about 1:00 you can see that I agro it then walk behind a rock so that it comes to me. I avoid the flame breath attack by standing behind the wall then after its got close enough to where I could easily get to its side/flank I pop out and fight it from an advantageous position. Another way you can manipulate enemy movement is if you're fighting a group of both ranged and melee enemies, stand next to the ranged enemies to fight them. The melee enemies will naturally walk to you since they're melee so you can aoe the ranged and melee enemies at the same time.

Let me know if you have any more questions and hope this helps.

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@Healix.5819 said:

@"Shikaru.7618" said:So if a skilled player who plays casually is not a casual, is casual just synonymous for bad player?

Yes, it generally is. A skilled player playing casually is going to be far ahead of a casual player playing casually. Some will use casual to solely mean time spent, but you can still be hardcore while only playing an hour a week, and likewise, casual when playing 24/7. Casual/hardcore have multiple definitions based on context, but overall, it is a mindset. A casual player is just playing for fun, doesn't care about learning anything and thus plays poorly with a somewhat random setup while generally relying purely on vertical progression to get past obstacles. They're always going to choose the easiest difficulty when playing games.

That is a broad generalization. I consider myself very casual by the first part of your definition, but the playing poorly part does not define me. Neither does the lack of wanting to learn. Your definition here almost offends me as a "casual player" because I'm not like that.

As a community, I believe that we need to stop dissecting casual vs hardcore because the definitions are too vague. It makes for poor discussion and debate.

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@castlemanic.3198 said:Thank you all for the tips, thats really been informative, especially @"Shikaru.7618", thats quite some detail for the run. I think im gonna stick with my build and try to get better at it, taking all your advice about precautions mantras and stuff. Thank you all again, I really appreciate it.

Kitty also watched a bit and it looked pretty much like a build and L2P issue.

  1. The crit rate looked pretty low and you aforementioned having mantra heal trait which means you're trait-wise running a support-style build and if you don't have high healing power (which totally kills your damage), that just means you're getting tiny bit of extra sustain while taking way longer to kill stuff and since the incoming damage per sec is somewhat fixed and 98% likely higher than your sustain (HoT mobs hurt a lot but they're pretty squishy), that sustain actually works AGAINST you. HoT is about who kills faster and tactical evasion timings and even pure heal builds struggle against ganks due to inability to outsustain as solo.And in general, one huge problem about casuals is their builds. Game itself doesn't teach about builds at all and due to vast amount of options, many casuals drown in them and run very inefficient builds with low synergy (if any) which makes things innecessarily multiple times harder for them. Statistically majority of casuals do 5-10% of the damage that hardcores do and half of that 90%+ difference is gears+traits+choice of weapons.
  2. Be mindful about your positioning. At some points, Kitty noticed that you left enemies at your back and that easily leaves you blind to them. In HoT, bad positioning, not paying attention to what mobs are doing and wasting blocks/evades on minor attacks instead of heavy-hitters means death. As Sun Tzu wrote: "If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle."

Kitty's doesn't know what's your exact build atm but here's a good one for open-world. http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PiwAExzlVwoYbsFWJW6WataA-zRIYhSND9VIRlABGCRUBqMLifGB-e-Use Focus instead of greatsword if you're fighting masses so you can pull enemies together. Use greatsword if you need to range something.-Using CCs (F3, Mantra, Gravity Well) and Well of Calamity apply Slow which means 100% crit rate and extra damage thanks to Danger Time and Superiority Complex.-If fighting boss mobs, start by summoning 3 clones with gs2+sword 3+sword 4 block and start Continuum Split. Use sword 5+Illusionary Disenchanter+one mantra charge+Well of Calamity+heal signet+sword 5+Disenchanter again during Continuum Split and repeat after the split is over for tons of phantasms and massive damage. Also use F3 and F1 whenever you have 3 clones for them. If you don't get downed during the split, this will also restore you to full health after split is over.

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