Jump to content
  • Sign Up

Invisibility has Gotten out of Hand


Vlad Morbius.1759

Recommended Posts

@wevh.2903 said:

@"ASP.8093" said:Condi Mesmer's scepter has both a channel and a low-cooldown block, and the Mirage spec lets you counterattack freely while defending

You've also got your own stealth and instant-speed mobility.

Not sayin' it's always going to be easy for you, but think about the tools you do have here.

Most condi builds are bad at chasing down enemies who don't stick around, though.

Yes and thats why mirage has one dodge, it is perfeclty balanced ,

I mean, I used to main mesmer. But I figured it was better to switch than to post variations of "Anet plz destroy other classes like you destroyed mesmer" until they un-destroy mesmer.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

All Stealth earned in wvw/pvp content on smoke fields should be 2 seconds max at this point, there would be a significant change if that was done because that's the thing being abused the most and knowing ANET they're not going to change how anything else work but numbers most of the time.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Another stealth thread...Ill keep it short-ish

Anet give us 2 versions of stealth please and do some QoL overall.

Camouflage and True stealthCamouflage = something similar to the mount stealth 2.0 ability in terms of visual effect basically a lesser stealth

  • Gained by easier forms of access to stealth we see today, leaping through smoke field combos or low cooldown traits/weapon skills like rifle dodge etc.
  • Player can not directly been seen but are shrouded in some kind of blurred /smoky visual similar to the mount stealth skill
  • Breaks targeting negating a large portion of skills in the game from being able to target the player and hides your name plate and hp bar.
  • Duration generally last longer than 3s standard smoke combo leap so long as the player does not attack or cast any offensive ability.
  • The visual should be hard to see at distant range (600 +units) especially when not moving.
  • Not countered by the revealed status effect but the player will still exposed if they attack and cannot re-enter it for a few seconds. (you can just use your eyes for hard reads now if good enough)
  • Does not stack with True stealth. True stealth removes this effect and overwrites it.

True stealth = basically the same thing we have now. Total 100% invisibility

  • Total invisibility you cant be seen at all
  • Still breaks targeting obviously
  • Gained only from utility skills mainly or traits that have higher cooldowns.
  • Buff these skills to make those stealth effects last longer when used to give them more value sense this will only be tied to higher cooldown skills
  • Countered by the revealed status effect

New goals for both mechanics

  • Casting any offensive ability reveals the player upon starting the cast of the skill regardless if it lands or not. (this is one of the biggest issues with why most people see stealth as an issue when it boils down massive outgoing dps from stealth. The player being revealed at the start of a cast makes a major difference than them being revealed once the damage is already being applied. People really should only be able to literally get good if it was done like this and there should be no reason to complain.)
  • In the case of thief traits need to be reworked to bolster the defensive aspects of camouflage in terms of duration, defense, mobility, etc. Now that the counter-play should be tracking to some extent with your eyes for most applications of stealth or should i say camouflage this would mean that thief's, defense, movement speed, and possibly many stealth attacks when utilizing that mechanic needs to be a good bit higher.
  • As someone else suggested above thief will or should be given a skill allowing them to maintain/access Camouflage when out of combat to start combat from that status if they wish (this should have a long duration but not be permanent and only available when not in combat. (perhaps give this to core thief as a bonus and daredevil and deadeye lose it similar to what was done with the rev and its unique core skill.)
  • Camouflage also applies to professions with easier access on weapon skills, Mesmer torch, ranger longbow, etc, but not utility skills like mass invisibility. Unlike thief they do not gain traits to boost camouflage.
  • In the future more professions might be able to gain access to the camouflage mechanic as its not as powerful as 100% invisibility opening up new concepts and designs for traits or skills across all professions or at least the majority of them.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:And as usual, people complain about the wrong element of stealth and present the
worst
possible solutions. Yes, out of combat stealth, where you get hit by a burst from a player you didnt even know was there is an issue. Thats solved easily just by having a max duration of stealth that cant be exceeded. But in-combat stealth, aka stealthing in the middle of a fight, is
already weak
. And yet inexplicably the mechanic so underpowered good thieves dont use it is the one people want nerfed to ludicrous degrees.

What? I just got trolled by a Daredevil who spent roughly 50% of the time stealthed. He could aggro into me in the middle of NPCs in a camp and escape with no consequences, because during the time when he wasn't stealthed he always has dodges and ports. Meanwhile I can't leave the camp because he will flip it (+ it was a long way to run to the next objective during which he will probably kill me), and I can't even map out because I'm in combat.

And I haven't even mentioned the ability to grief 8+ players hunting you in a Keep, on a class that has ports for teammates (i.e. cannot be left alone if you want to hold the objective).

Stealth is just so stupidly broken it needs to be nerfed into oblivion. "Overpowered" is the wrong word to describe it. It's the ability to grief other players that is the problem.

The biggest issue with stealth is in this post.What the poster I am quotting is saying is he can't even interact with the thief due to stealth and dodges. So he playing a video game against a class he essentially cannot interact with. That is boring and bad, and why stealth is so obscenely broken.

Yeah except that says more about him than it says about thief. Because he very much so can interact with the thief. Easily even. Stealth in-combat is trivially easy to punish after all. If he failed to do so, he just misplayed. As for "dodges", D/P thief does not have an above average amount of dodges, and when you consider the lack of invuln or block, theyre even below average. Stealth is not "obscenely broken", in the situations people complain about its horribly
underpowered
. It is stupid for out of combat scenarios, but people rarely talk about those.

Fighting against classes you can't even interact with is horrible game design and has been an issue plaguing this game for years, especially in WvW.

No such class ever existed. The closest were probably release Mirage and some version of sword weaver. And even with those you could interact with them.

Take care of your game, look at abusive combinations people are using to make their characters instantly kill someone, or be non-interactable by other players, and actually FIX THEM.

Thats ... what theyve been doing? I cant think of any class that can even oneshot anymore out of stealth (other than blasting module engineer, but that one is a complete meme), and no class is "non-interactable". And never has been. They even nerfed Mirage and Sword Weaver since.

I wonder why you're claiming I "misplayed" when 1) he didn't kill me, and 2) you agreed that I cannot possibly kill the thief if he doesn't want to be killed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Teratus.2859 said:I've been a vocal anti stealth guy for a long time myself and I do think something needs to be done about it.

Stealth alone is annoying but stealth + mobility is insufferable.Unfortunately the classes that use stealth the most tend to be apt in both those things.Mes has their teleports and blinks, Stealth trap rangers have their leap's and dash's and of course thief being the worst offender has so many large evades and shadowsteps they can use to play their hit and run nonsense.

I think the main reason stealth is such a problem is because of how little there is to counter it.. Reveal being about the only decent way to do so and that is a very, very limited ability that most classes don't even get good access to.Add to that they even give thief the ability to remove it XD

It's an annoying mechanic for sure, even if the thief knows he can't kill someone he can still follow them around and harass them to no end by abusing it.It needs better counters imo, or at least most classes need better access to those counters.

Okay please just for the sake of argument get on a thief and do all these things you claim that have no counter to them and then come back and tell me you actually believe a word of what you stated rofl.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Jeydra.4386 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:And as usual, people complain about the wrong element of stealth and present the
worst
possible solutions. Yes, out of combat stealth, where you get hit by a burst from a player you didnt even know was there is an issue. Thats solved easily just by having a max duration of stealth that cant be exceeded. But in-combat stealth, aka stealthing in the middle of a fight, is
already weak
. And yet inexplicably the mechanic so underpowered good thieves dont use it is the one people want nerfed to ludicrous degrees.

What? I just got trolled by a Daredevil who spent roughly 50% of the time stealthed. He could aggro into me in the middle of NPCs in a camp and escape with no consequences, because during the time when he wasn't stealthed he always has dodges and ports. Meanwhile I can't leave the camp because he will flip it (+ it was a long way to run to the next objective during which he will probably kill me), and I can't even map out because I'm in combat.

And I haven't even mentioned the ability to grief 8+ players hunting you in a Keep, on a class that has ports for teammates (i.e. cannot be left alone if you want to hold the objective).

Stealth is just so stupidly broken it needs to be nerfed into oblivion. "Overpowered" is the wrong word to describe it. It's the ability to grief other players that is the problem.

The biggest issue with stealth is in this post.What the poster I am quotting is saying is he can't even interact with the thief due to stealth and dodges. So he playing a video game against a class he essentially cannot interact with. That is boring and bad, and why stealth is so obscenely broken.

Yeah except that says more about him than it says about thief. Because he very much so can interact with the thief. Easily even. Stealth in-combat is trivially easy to punish after all. If he failed to do so, he just misplayed. As for "dodges", D/P thief does not have an above average amount of dodges, and when you consider the lack of invuln or block, theyre even below average. Stealth is not "obscenely broken", in the situations people complain about its horribly
underpowered
. It is stupid for out of combat scenarios, but people rarely talk about those.

Fighting against classes you can't even interact with is horrible game design and has been an issue plaguing this game for years, especially in WvW.

No such class ever existed. The closest were probably release Mirage and some version of sword weaver. And even with those you could interact with them.

Take care of your game, look at abusive combinations people are using to make their characters instantly kill someone, or be non-interactable by other players, and actually FIX THEM.

Thats ... what theyve been doing? I cant think of any class that can even oneshot anymore out of stealth (other than blasting module engineer, but that one is a complete meme), and no class is "non-interactable". And never has been. They even nerfed Mirage and Sword Weaver since.

I wonder why you're claiming I "misplayed" when 1) he didn't kill me, and 2) you agreed that I cannot possibly kill the thief if he doesn't want to be killed.

The thing is, if the thief is stupid enough to use in-combat stealth, thats one of the few ways that you can kill a thief. He is pretty shields down if he does that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"UNOwen.7132" said:Consider this counterpoint: A, thief cant do that while entering stealth (Where you can burst him to death) and B, if he does that, its evades doing the damage avoiding. Stealth is doing nothing defensively there. Also, improvisation hasnt been run in months, so theif actually cant do that. Thieves condi cleanses are far below average, thieves healing is far below average (What health regen do they even use, unless you mean the bit of healing from leeching venoms that get wasted on the start) and move speed doesnt help much defensively when youre CCd. Saying its the worst defensive tool is strictly factually correct.

Thief can gain passive healing while in stealth when you trait it (like every body does) so there's that. Some people also take the condi cleanse over time in stealth (though probably few). and you saying "it hasn't been run" does not mean that thieves do not have the ability to do that. Think about it. Stealth is one of the best defensive tools because A target break, B paired with mobility means you can run and likely OOC. It gives you the ability to never lose a 1v1 when used properly.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@jpsssss.7530 said:

@"UNOwen.7132" said:Consider this counterpoint: A, thief cant do that while entering stealth (Where you can burst him to death) and B, if he does that, its evades doing the damage avoiding. Stealth is doing
nothing
defensively there. Also, improvisation hasnt been run in months, so theif actually cant do that. Thieves condi cleanses are far below average, thieves healing is far below average (What health regen do they even use, unless you mean the bit of healing from leeching venoms that get wasted on the start) and move speed doesnt help much defensively when youre CCd. Saying its the worst defensive tool is strictly factually correct.

Thief can gain passive healing while in stealth when you trait it (like every body does) so there's that.

They can. But no one seems to trait that actually. The default is Rending Shade. But here is the thing. That isnt stealth doing it. Its a trait. And other classes have traits like it that are tied to different thing. We dont tend to count those traits as part of the thing.

Some people also take the condi cleanse over time in stealth (though probably few).

Which is 1 cleanse every 3 seconds. Again its also a trait. Its not particularly strong and not part of stealth.

and you saying "it hasn't been run" does not mean that thieves do not have the ability to do that.

They would have to drop SA for that, so there you have it.

Think about it. Stealth is one of the best defensive tools because A target break, B paired with mobility means you can run and likely OOC. It gives you the ability to never lose a 1v1 when used properly.

I thought about it. I know its the worst one. Now however, you think about it. "Paired with mobility". If the thief didnt stealth up, do you think he could run and get OOC? The answer is obviously "yes, of course". S/D Thief doesnt use stealth and it can still do it. On the flipside, if you use just stealth but not mobiltiy, can he do it? No he gets killed. In fact, using stealth is one of the few ways a thief can fail to run away and get killed. Stealth doesnt give you that ability. Shortbow 5 does. Stealth gives you the ability to lose 1v1s when you should never be able to lose them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@jpsssss.7530 said:

@"UNOwen.7132" said:Consider this counterpoint: A, thief cant do that while entering stealth (Where you can burst him to death) and B, if he does that, its evades doing the damage avoiding. Stealth is doing
nothing
defensively there. Also, improvisation hasnt been run in months, so theif actually cant do that. Thieves condi cleanses are far below average, thieves healing is far below average (What health regen do they even use, unless you mean the bit of healing from leeching venoms that get wasted on the start) and move speed doesnt help much defensively when youre CCd. Saying its the worst defensive tool is strictly factually correct.

Thief can gain
passive healing while in stealth when you trait it (like every body does)
so there's that. Some people also take the condi cleanse over time in stealth (though probably few). and you saying "it hasn't been run" does not mean that thieves do not have the ability to do that. Think about it. Stealth is one of the best defensive tools because A target break, B paired with mobility means you can run and likely OOC. It gives you the ability to never lose a 1v1 when used properly.

I'd rather take Cloaked in Shadow for healing and blinds and I can use it while fighting instead of trying to sit in stealth avoiding circles and trying to mask my direction so I don't get pulled or blown up when I pop out.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"Sobx.1758" said:If you're a skilled player you know how to properly play against stealth, those who don't aren't effective regardless but i find no joy in losing a mechanic i am adept at using. It has been a staple in the game since the onset and it needs to stay, thanks! ;)

"If you are skilled you know you have to run away from anyone using stealth because there is actually almost none effective counterplay" Do you really think thats a viable answer? Do you remember what games are supposed to be about?Plus, stealth might been a staple, but I remember that staple, and it was all about quick combos, stacking stealth and having like no more than 5 to 8 seconds of stealth, so you had to quickly think your next move.The insane amount of stealth some classes can stack, the perma stealth trash builds, the stealth rework to engis that completely ruined any sort of zerg vs zerg interaction, that's not a staple, it's actually against the core philosophy of the game, yet it's still here..

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Smoosh.2718 said:I get that Revealed is meant to counter invisible... but why cant you reveal a invisible person? or an AOE reveal (e.g. on my mark - Mark your foe for 16% vuln and reveal around your character invisible foes preventing them from cloaking. Range for the Vuln would stay but the reveal would need to come down to say 450-600)

Also... skills should not be able to remove the revealed debuff as it kills the counterplay once again.

Oh yeah, that deadeye skill, well, the whole deadeye design is the most stupid thing i've seen in all my years playing this game, what I never understood is why damage doesn't reveal opponents like in elder scrolls online, and why only few classes got a reveal skill.Plus reveal skills were good back then when stealth was short, and you got tells to track the stealthed enemy, now people start stacking stealth from the spawn you have to actually guess where tf they are standing to actually reveal them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@mindcircus.1506 said:

@"Vlad Morbius.1759" said:Too much of it in game now, far too many classes have it and it is highly unbalanced. I'm not saying get rid of it but limit the damage you can do while invisible it is OP today and it is a ridiculously overused skill which should be a clear indication that it is too powerful. Remove things like stealth burst, how about removing boons when you go invis, there has to be a cost to this.Threads like this and comments like yours are why the developers of this game can't possibly take player feedback on these topics seriously.

"I disagree with what you say so i'll just treat you like an fool who shouldn't be taken seriously plz anet don't nerf stealth" Isn't this what you meant to say?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@kash.9213 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:I've been a vocal anti stealth guy for a long time myself and I do think something needs to be done about it.

Stealth alone is annoying but stealth + mobility is insufferable.Unfortunately the classes that use stealth the most tend to be apt in both those things.Mes has their teleports and blinks, Stealth trap rangers have their leap's and dash's and of course thief being the worst offender has so many large evades and shadowsteps they can use to play their hit and run nonsense.

I think the main reason stealth is such a problem is because of
how little there is to counter it
.. Reveal being about the only decent way to do so and that is a very, very limited ability that most classes don't even get good access to.Add to that they even give thief the ability to remove it XD

It's an annoying mechanic for sure, even if the thief knows he can't kill someone he can still follow them around and harass them to no end by abusing it.It needs better counters imo, or at least most classes need better access to those counters.

How much more do you need to turn around and hit someone who is likely right behind you or within a cone of where their ground marker for stealth was if they're ranged? I'll take the tells from stealth in and stealth out over most others in the game, especially since they have to come out of stealth to do anything that I can't clear or break right away. Stealth doesn't need better counters, it needs people to quit acting like stealth comes with a force field or like they can't land anything on them between blinks. A lot of thieves are pretty much supercharged npcs but the good and really annoying ones would probably frustrate you on other professions, they probably read you before you know they're scoping you out. I got tuned up by another thief this weekend with no more stealth or better tools than I had, he was just better but more importantly he just read me too well and I reacted more instead of staying calm and reading what he was plotting correctly.

@Teratus.2859 said:I've been a vocal anti stealth guy for a long time myself and I do think something needs to be done about it.

Stealth alone is annoying but stealth + mobility is insufferable.Unfortunately the classes that use stealth the most tend to be apt in both those things.Mes has their teleports and blinks, Stealth trap rangers have their leap's and dash's and of course thief being the worst offender has so many large evades and shadowsteps they can use to play their hit and run nonsense.

I think the main reason stealth is such a problem is because of
how little there is to counter it
.. Reveal being about the only decent way to do so and that is a very, very limited ability that most classes don't even get good access to.Add to that they even give thief the ability to remove it XD

It's an annoying mechanic for sure, even if the thief knows he can't kill someone he can still follow them around and harass them to no end by abusing it.It needs better counters imo, or at least most classes need better access to those counters.

How much more do you need to turn around and hit someone who is likely right behind you or within a cone of where their ground marker for stealth was if they're ranged? I'll take the tells from stealth in and stealth out over most others in the game, especially since they have to come out of stealth to do anything that I can't clear or break right away. Stealth doesn't need better counters, it needs people to quit acting like stealth comes with a force field or like they can't land anything on them between blinks. A lot of thieves are pretty much supercharged npcs but the good and really annoying ones would probably frustrate you on other professions, they probably read you before you know they're scoping you out. I got tuned up by another thief this weekend with no more stealth or better tools than I had, he was just better but more importantly he just read me too well and I reacted more instead of staying calm and reading what he was plotting correctly.

Just for fun, whatclass do you play? I would love to know that to understand better your personal perspective.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Jeydra.4386 said:Stealth is dumb. If they are full Zerker and can be killed while unstealthed then yeah, it wouldn't be a problem. Unfortunately we also have builds where they do enough damage to kill you (even if they kill you slowly), but also cannot be killed because of the stealth. Especially silly are the builds which spend what feels like half the time stealthed and the remaining half dodging. Even sillier are the thieves that hide in a keep effectively forever, tapping it constantly, because they can never be revealed long enough to be killed (especially given all the ports & dodges the class has). I've been trolled at something like 6v1 odds by a thief before, which shows just how stupid stealth is. Yes, they can't kill us, but we can't kill them either in spite of the huge numbers advantage.

If people want to keep stealth, fine, but make other changes such that the thief can actually die. We could for example have much greater cooldowns on stealth (this is why Mesmer aren't a problem even though they can also stealth), some mechanic such that if you stealth X times in short order each new stealth lasts shorter, etc.

Haven't you paid attention to anet designs philosphy since the past 2 years? They clearly want to avoid players dying as much as they can, because a game where no one dies, is a game where everyone wins! Yay so much fun anet i just had to uninstall your game because it was excesively fun!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@kai.5149 said:

.
Stealth gives you the ability to lose 1v1s when you should never be able to lose them
.

That is one of the stupidest statements on this forums i have seen in quite some time xD...

There are many problems with thieves like evade spam &
instant
teleporting all over the place (wvw - wide open spaces), so stealth is a minor offender of the three.

Imo instant abilities are the worst offender .. just make them telegraphed like the warrior skills

Instant movement is fine in tbh in short amounts like thief has just enough instant movement imo that its not really broken. IF they should be able to do it through solid obstructions is another argument however but putting that aside.... When combined with stealth it can be a bit much but thats mainly because anets current version of stealth has limited counter play especially when a thief wants to play very timid which can be super frustrating when fighting one alone. Other than guessing where they might be or are going. Not every profession has easy access to reveal or good tools to give up so that they can take it in their builds.

I dont think most instant movement needs telegraphs though. The main instnat movement skill that most people are likely to complain about is sword 2 and there are many ways anet could technically balance that without giving it a telegraph if it even needed it and im not suggesting it does at the current moment.Instant movement is fine for a class that should be mobile over having high defense.Instant 100-0 damage is not fine (you dont see too much of this in the game now but it still exist in some forms.

This whole argument started over stealth complaints which likely comes from a very few select builds/play styles usually found on deadeye / or condi pistol daredevil where they will hide for 90% of the fight duration. Regardless of what you play, builds like that dont feel fun to fight even if you manage to catch / beat them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@kraai.7265 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:I've been a vocal anti stealth guy for a long time myself and I do think something needs to be done about it.

Stealth alone is annoying but stealth + mobility is insufferable.Unfortunately the classes that use stealth the most tend to be apt in both those things.Mes has their teleports and blinks, Stealth trap rangers have their leap's and dash's and of course thief being the worst offender has so many large evades and shadowsteps they can use to play their hit and run nonsense.

I think the main reason stealth is such a problem is because of
how little there is to counter it
.. Reveal being about the only decent way to do so and that is a very, very limited ability that most classes don't even get good access to.Add to that they even give thief the ability to remove it XD

It's an annoying mechanic for sure, even if the thief knows he can't kill someone he can still follow them around and harass them to no end by abusing it.It needs better counters imo, or at least most classes need better access to those counters.

How much more do you need to turn around and hit someone who is likely right behind you or within a cone of where their ground marker for stealth was if they're ranged? I'll take the tells from stealth in and stealth out over most others in the game, especially since they have to come out of stealth to do anything that I can't clear or break right away. Stealth doesn't need better counters, it needs people to quit acting like stealth comes with a force field or like they can't land anything on them between blinks. A lot of thieves are pretty much supercharged npcs but the good and really annoying ones would probably frustrate you on other professions, they probably read you before you know they're scoping you out. I got tuned up by another thief this weekend with no more stealth or better tools than I had, he was just better but more importantly he just read me too well and I reacted more instead of staying calm and reading what he was plotting correctly.

@Teratus.2859 said:I've been a vocal anti stealth guy for a long time myself and I do think something needs to be done about it.

Stealth alone is annoying but stealth + mobility is insufferable.Unfortunately the classes that use stealth the most tend to be apt in both those things.Mes has their teleports and blinks, Stealth trap rangers have their leap's and dash's and of course thief being the worst offender has so many large evades and shadowsteps they can use to play their hit and run nonsense.

I think the main reason stealth is such a problem is because of
how little there is to counter it
.. Reveal being about the only decent way to do so and that is a very, very limited ability that most classes don't even get good access to.Add to that they even give thief the ability to remove it XD

It's an annoying mechanic for sure, even if the thief knows he can't kill someone he can still follow them around and harass them to no end by abusing it.It needs better counters imo, or at least most classes need better access to those counters.

How much more do you need to turn around and hit someone who is likely right behind you or within a cone of where their ground marker for stealth was if they're ranged? I'll take the tells from stealth in and stealth out over most others in the game, especially since they have to come out of stealth to do anything that I can't clear or break right away. Stealth doesn't need better counters, it needs people to quit acting like stealth comes with a force field or like they can't land anything on them between blinks. A lot of thieves are pretty much supercharged npcs but the good and really annoying ones would probably frustrate you on other professions, they probably read you before you know they're scoping you out. I got tuned up by another thief this weekend with no more stealth or better tools than I had, he was just better but more importantly he just read me too well and I reacted more instead of staying calm and reading what he was plotting correctly.

Just for fun, whatclass do you play? I would love to know that to understand better your personal perspective.

I play thief, deadeye mostly. My perspective is right there in my post, simple enough.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:And as usual, people complain about the wrong element of stealth and present the
worst
possible solutions. Yes, out of combat stealth, where you get hit by a burst from a player you didnt even know was there is an issue. Thats solved easily just by having a max duration of stealth that cant be exceeded. But in-combat stealth, aka stealthing in the middle of a fight, is
already weak
. And yet inexplicably the mechanic so underpowered good thieves dont use it is the one people want nerfed to ludicrous degrees.

What? I just got trolled by a Daredevil who spent roughly 50% of the time stealthed. He could aggro into me in the middle of NPCs in a camp and escape with no consequences, because during the time when he wasn't stealthed he always has dodges and ports. Meanwhile I can't leave the camp because he will flip it (+ it was a long way to run to the next objective during which he will probably kill me), and I can't even map out because I'm in combat.

And I haven't even mentioned the ability to grief 8+ players hunting you in a Keep, on a class that has ports for teammates (i.e. cannot be left alone if you want to hold the objective).

Stealth is just so stupidly broken it needs to be nerfed into oblivion. "Overpowered" is the wrong word to describe it. It's the ability to grief other players that is the problem.

The biggest issue with stealth is in this post.What the poster I am quotting is saying is he can't even interact with the thief due to stealth and dodges. So he playing a video game against a class he essentially cannot interact with. That is boring and bad, and why stealth is so obscenely broken.

Yeah except that says more about him than it says about thief. Because he very much so can interact with the thief. Easily even. Stealth in-combat is trivially easy to punish after all. If he failed to do so, he just misplayed. As for "dodges", D/P thief does not have an above average amount of dodges, and when you consider the lack of invuln or block, theyre even below average. Stealth is not "obscenely broken", in the situations people complain about its horribly
underpowered
. It is stupid for out of combat scenarios, but people rarely talk about those.

Fighting against classes you can't even interact with is horrible game design and has been an issue plaguing this game for years, especially in WvW.

No such class ever existed. The closest were probably release Mirage and some version of sword weaver. And even with those you could interact with them.

Take care of your game, look at abusive combinations people are using to make their characters instantly kill someone, or be non-interactable by other players, and actually FIX THEM.

Thats ... what theyve been doing? I cant think of any class that can even oneshot anymore out of stealth (other than blasting module engineer, but that one is a complete meme), and no class is "non-interactable". And never has been. They even nerfed Mirage and Sword Weaver since.

I wonder why you're claiming I "misplayed" when 1) he didn't kill me, and 2) you agreed that I cannot possibly kill the thief if he doesn't want to be killed.

The thing is, if the thief is stupid enough to use in-combat stealth, thats one of the few ways that you can kill a thief. He is pretty shields down if he does that.

That doesn't answer any of the points that were raised, unless you are arguing that Thief is broken but stealth isn't.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Jeydra.4386 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:And as usual, people complain about the wrong element of stealth and present the
worst
possible solutions. Yes, out of combat stealth, where you get hit by a burst from a player you didnt even know was there is an issue. Thats solved easily just by having a max duration of stealth that cant be exceeded. But in-combat stealth, aka stealthing in the middle of a fight, is
already weak
. And yet inexplicably the mechanic so underpowered good thieves dont use it is the one people want nerfed to ludicrous degrees.

What? I just got trolled by a Daredevil who spent roughly 50% of the time stealthed. He could aggro into me in the middle of NPCs in a camp and escape with no consequences, because during the time when he wasn't stealthed he always has dodges and ports. Meanwhile I can't leave the camp because he will flip it (+ it was a long way to run to the next objective during which he will probably kill me), and I can't even map out because I'm in combat.

And I haven't even mentioned the ability to grief 8+ players hunting you in a Keep, on a class that has ports for teammates (i.e. cannot be left alone if you want to hold the objective).

Stealth is just so stupidly broken it needs to be nerfed into oblivion. "Overpowered" is the wrong word to describe it. It's the ability to grief other players that is the problem.

The biggest issue with stealth is in this post.What the poster I am quotting is saying is he can't even interact with the thief due to stealth and dodges. So he playing a video game against a class he essentially cannot interact with. That is boring and bad, and why stealth is so obscenely broken.

Yeah except that says more about him than it says about thief. Because he very much so can interact with the thief. Easily even. Stealth in-combat is trivially easy to punish after all. If he failed to do so, he just misplayed. As for "dodges", D/P thief does not have an above average amount of dodges, and when you consider the lack of invuln or block, theyre even below average. Stealth is not "obscenely broken", in the situations people complain about its horribly
underpowered
. It is stupid for out of combat scenarios, but people rarely talk about those.

Fighting against classes you can't even interact with is horrible game design and has been an issue plaguing this game for years, especially in WvW.

No such class ever existed. The closest were probably release Mirage and some version of sword weaver. And even with those you could interact with them.

Take care of your game, look at abusive combinations people are using to make their characters instantly kill someone, or be non-interactable by other players, and actually FIX THEM.

Thats ... what theyve been doing? I cant think of any class that can even oneshot anymore out of stealth (other than blasting module engineer, but that one is a complete meme), and no class is "non-interactable". And never has been. They even nerfed Mirage and Sword Weaver since.

I wonder why you're claiming I "misplayed" when 1) he didn't kill me, and 2) you agreed that I cannot possibly kill the thief if he doesn't want to be killed.

The thing is, if the thief is stupid enough to use in-combat stealth, thats one of the few ways that you can kill a thief. He is pretty shields down if he does that.

That doesn't answer any of the points that were raised, unless you are arguing that Thief is broken but stealth isn't.

To answer your points, you misplayed because you failed to kill him when he gave you the perfect opportunity to kill him with stealth. And nah, neither stealth nor thief are broken. Not being able to be killed isnt worth much if youre also not able to kill. Thief can only draw.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@kraai.7265 said:

@"Sobx.1758" said:If you're a skilled player you know how to properly play against stealth, those who don't aren't effective regardless but i find no joy in losing a mechanic i am adept at using. It has been a staple in the game since the onset and it needs to stay, thanks!

"If you are skilled you know you have to run away from anyone using stealth because there is actually almost none effective counterplay" Do you really think thats a viable answer? Do you remember what games are supposed to be about?Plus, stealth might been a staple, but I remember that staple, and it was all about quick combos, stacking stealth and having like no more than 5 to 8 seconds of stealth, so you had to quickly think your next move.The insane amount of stealth some classes can stack, the perma stealth trash builds, the stealth rework to engis that completely ruined any sort of zerg vs zerg interaction, that's not a staple, it's actually against the core philosophy of the game, yet it's still here..

Sure, kiiind of true. But that's not what op's "nerf proposal" targets at all. The thing with people crying about stealth on this forum is that for the most part, they fail to even recognize its problematic areas and instead just try to shotgun the whole mechanic into uselesness.

Also click on an emote in the post you were answering to and the form of that post might make a little more sense.

  • Confused 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:And as usual, people complain about the wrong element of stealth and present the
worst
possible solutions. Yes, out of combat stealth, where you get hit by a burst from a player you didnt even know was there is an issue. Thats solved easily just by having a max duration of stealth that cant be exceeded. But in-combat stealth, aka stealthing in the middle of a fight, is
already weak
. And yet inexplicably the mechanic so underpowered good thieves dont use it is the one people want nerfed to ludicrous degrees.

What? I just got trolled by a Daredevil who spent roughly 50% of the time stealthed. He could aggro into me in the middle of NPCs in a camp and escape with no consequences, because during the time when he wasn't stealthed he always has dodges and ports. Meanwhile I can't leave the camp because he will flip it (+ it was a long way to run to the next objective during which he will probably kill me), and I can't even map out because I'm in combat.

And I haven't even mentioned the ability to grief 8+ players hunting you in a Keep, on a class that has ports for teammates (i.e. cannot be left alone if you want to hold the objective).

Stealth is just so stupidly broken it needs to be nerfed into oblivion. "Overpowered" is the wrong word to describe it. It's the ability to grief other players that is the problem.

The biggest issue with stealth is in this post.What the poster I am quotting is saying is he can't even interact with the thief due to stealth and dodges. So he playing a video game against a class he essentially cannot interact with. That is boring and bad, and why stealth is so obscenely broken.

Yeah except that says more about him than it says about thief. Because he very much so can interact with the thief. Easily even. Stealth in-combat is trivially easy to punish after all. If he failed to do so, he just misplayed. As for "dodges", D/P thief does not have an above average amount of dodges, and when you consider the lack of invuln or block, theyre even below average. Stealth is not "obscenely broken", in the situations people complain about its horribly
underpowered
. It is stupid for out of combat scenarios, but people rarely talk about those.

Fighting against classes you can't even interact with is horrible game design and has been an issue plaguing this game for years, especially in WvW.

No such class ever existed. The closest were probably release Mirage and some version of sword weaver. And even with those you could interact with them.

Take care of your game, look at abusive combinations people are using to make their characters instantly kill someone, or be non-interactable by other players, and actually FIX THEM.

Thats ... what theyve been doing? I cant think of any class that can even oneshot anymore out of stealth (other than blasting module engineer, but that one is a complete meme), and no class is "non-interactable". And never has been. They even nerfed Mirage and Sword Weaver since.

I wonder why you're claiming I "misplayed" when 1) he didn't kill me, and 2) you agreed that I cannot possibly kill the thief if he doesn't want to be killed.

The thing is, if the thief is stupid enough to use in-combat stealth, thats one of the few ways that you can kill a thief. He is pretty shields down if he does that.

That doesn't answer any of the points that were raised, unless you are arguing that Thief is broken but stealth isn't.

To answer your points, you misplayed because you failed to kill him when he gave you the perfect opportunity to kill him with stealth. And nah, neither stealth nor thief are broken. Not being able to be killed isnt worth much if youre also not able to kill. Thief can only draw.

Why don't you say he misplayed by giving me the opportunity to kill him then. You're really grasping at straws now, because the moment you acknowledge that Thieves cannot be killed unless they allow themselves to be killed, you back up my argument. Not going to respond anymore, because you are patently not getting it (e.g. by saying that you cannot interact with Weavers and Mirages, which indicates you don't understand and/or don't want to understand what "interact" means.)

Thief is stupidly broken and needs to be nerfed into oblivion.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Jeydra.4386 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:And as usual, people complain about the wrong element of stealth and present the
worst
possible solutions. Yes, out of combat stealth, where you get hit by a burst from a player you didnt even know was there is an issue. Thats solved easily just by having a max duration of stealth that cant be exceeded. But in-combat stealth, aka stealthing in the middle of a fight, is
already weak
. And yet inexplicably the mechanic so underpowered good thieves dont use it is the one people want nerfed to ludicrous degrees.

What? I just got trolled by a Daredevil who spent roughly 50% of the time stealthed. He could aggro into me in the middle of NPCs in a camp and escape with no consequences, because during the time when he wasn't stealthed he always has dodges and ports. Meanwhile I can't leave the camp because he will flip it (+ it was a long way to run to the next objective during which he will probably kill me), and I can't even map out because I'm in combat.

And I haven't even mentioned the ability to grief 8+ players hunting you in a Keep, on a class that has ports for teammates (i.e. cannot be left alone if you want to hold the objective).

Stealth is just so stupidly broken it needs to be nerfed into oblivion. "Overpowered" is the wrong word to describe it. It's the ability to grief other players that is the problem.

The biggest issue with stealth is in this post.What the poster I am quotting is saying is he can't even interact with the thief due to stealth and dodges. So he playing a video game against a class he essentially cannot interact with. That is boring and bad, and why stealth is so obscenely broken.

Yeah except that says more about him than it says about thief. Because he very much so can interact with the thief. Easily even. Stealth in-combat is trivially easy to punish after all. If he failed to do so, he just misplayed. As for "dodges", D/P thief does not have an above average amount of dodges, and when you consider the lack of invuln or block, theyre even below average. Stealth is not "obscenely broken", in the situations people complain about its horribly
underpowered
. It is stupid for out of combat scenarios, but people rarely talk about those.

Fighting against classes you can't even interact with is horrible game design and has been an issue plaguing this game for years, especially in WvW.

No such class ever existed. The closest were probably release Mirage and some version of sword weaver. And even with those you could interact with them.

Take care of your game, look at abusive combinations people are using to make their characters instantly kill someone, or be non-interactable by other players, and actually FIX THEM.

Thats ... what theyve been doing? I cant think of any class that can even oneshot anymore out of stealth (other than blasting module engineer, but that one is a complete meme), and no class is "non-interactable". And never has been. They even nerfed Mirage and Sword Weaver since.

I wonder why you're claiming I "misplayed" when 1) he didn't kill me, and 2) you agreed that I cannot possibly kill the thief if he doesn't want to be killed.

The thing is, if the thief is stupid enough to use in-combat stealth, thats one of the few ways that you can kill a thief. He is pretty shields down if he does that.

That doesn't answer any of the points that were raised, unless you are arguing that Thief is broken but stealth isn't.

To answer your points, you misplayed because you failed to kill him when he gave you the perfect opportunity to kill him with stealth. And nah, neither stealth nor thief are broken. Not being able to be killed isnt worth much if youre also not able to kill. Thief can only draw.

Why don't you say he misplayed by giving me the opportunity to kill him then. You're really grasping at straws now, because the moment you acknowledge that Thieves cannot be killed unless they allow themselves to be killed, you back up my argument. Not going to respond anymore, because you are patently not getting it (e.g. by saying that you cannot interact with Weavers and Mirages, which indicates you don't understand and/or don't want to understand what "interact" means.)

One does not preclude the other. He misplayed, and you misplayed. And sure, thieves cannot be killed. But here is the thing. They also cannot kill. However, there are 2 more classes that if they do not want to be killed, cannot be killed. Warrior and Ranger. Unlike thief, they can kill. So why are you zeroing in on thief?

Thief is stupidly broken and needs to be nerfed into oblivion.

Thief is not even good, and doesnt need a nerf at all.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Is there absolutely anything this player base will not complain about???

Stealth is easily countered in group play especially with hammer revs in the current meta on pushes so it's not like everyone doesn't have access to reveals.

Also other classes have access to reveals as well - add into that the Marked debuff.

I mean stealth is very balanced as it stands in group play.

Now, for roaming - which this game mode should never be balanced from sure stealth is an advantage but not overpowered. Some classes are designed with having stealth in mind.

But, lets be frank - dead eye riffle spec would be a free kill without it and is only viable in roaming - so that's it's thing. Its useless pretty much in all other game modes.

Here's what I got out of this post , "Stealth is OP and it makes me tink man. I know itz got dem counters but I have to use my brain. IT SHOULD BE NERFED. LONG LIVE THE OLD SCHOOL HAMMER TRAIN BOYZ".......

No thanx.............

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:And as usual, people complain about the wrong element of stealth and present the
worst
possible solutions. Yes, out of combat stealth, where you get hit by a burst from a player you didnt even know was there is an issue. Thats solved easily just by having a max duration of stealth that cant be exceeded. But in-combat stealth, aka stealthing in the middle of a fight, is
already weak
. And yet inexplicably the mechanic so underpowered good thieves dont use it is the one people want nerfed to ludicrous degrees.

What? I just got trolled by a Daredevil who spent roughly 50% of the time stealthed. He could aggro into me in the middle of NPCs in a camp and escape with no consequences, because during the time when he wasn't stealthed he always has dodges and ports. Meanwhile I can't leave the camp because he will flip it (+ it was a long way to run to the next objective during which he will probably kill me), and I can't even map out because I'm in combat.

And I haven't even mentioned the ability to grief 8+ players hunting you in a Keep, on a class that has ports for teammates (i.e. cannot be left alone if you want to hold the objective).

Stealth is just so stupidly broken it needs to be nerfed into oblivion. "Overpowered" is the wrong word to describe it. It's the ability to grief other players that is the problem.

The biggest issue with stealth is in this post.What the poster I am quotting is saying is he can't even interact with the thief due to stealth and dodges. So he playing a video game against a class he essentially cannot interact with. That is boring and bad, and why stealth is so obscenely broken.

Yeah except that says more about him than it says about thief. Because he very much so can interact with the thief. Easily even. Stealth in-combat is trivially easy to punish after all. If he failed to do so, he just misplayed. As for "dodges", D/P thief does not have an above average amount of dodges, and when you consider the lack of invuln or block, theyre even below average. Stealth is not "obscenely broken", in the situations people complain about its horribly
underpowered
. It is stupid for out of combat scenarios, but people rarely talk about those.

Fighting against classes you can't even interact with is horrible game design and has been an issue plaguing this game for years, especially in WvW.

No such class ever existed. The closest were probably release Mirage and some version of sword weaver. And even with those you could interact with them.

Take care of your game, look at abusive combinations people are using to make their characters instantly kill someone, or be non-interactable by other players, and actually FIX THEM.

Thats ... what theyve been doing? I cant think of any class that can even oneshot anymore out of stealth (other than blasting module engineer, but that one is a complete meme), and no class is "non-interactable". And never has been. They even nerfed Mirage and Sword Weaver since.

I wonder why you're claiming I "misplayed" when 1) he didn't kill me, and 2) you agreed that I cannot possibly kill the thief if he doesn't want to be killed.

The thing is, if the thief is stupid enough to use in-combat stealth, thats one of the few ways that you can kill a thief. He is pretty shields down if he does that.

That doesn't answer any of the points that were raised, unless you are arguing that Thief is broken but stealth isn't.

To answer your points, you misplayed because you failed to kill him when he gave you the perfect opportunity to kill him with stealth. And nah, neither stealth nor thief are broken. Not being able to be killed isnt worth much if youre also not able to kill. Thief can only draw.

Ang on a second here. Dont pretend thief is all that squishy anymore since dmg got 33% nerfed. Also most are using -10% food, along with other dmg reduction traits from daredevil and shadow arts. They are far from 2/3 hits any more.

Secondly, as I said before. Most thievs are using shadow arts so they cant really help but go in stealth while in combat from heal trait and deception reduce trait (steal) 90% of thieves in wvw will and do camp stealth before and mid combat. And thanks to dash they can easily kite away and open the gap so most melee cc classes cant stop bp/hs combo

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...