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Invisibility has Gotten out of Hand


Vlad Morbius.1759

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@Jeydra.4386 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:And as usual, people complain about the wrong element of stealth and present the
worst
possible solutions. Yes, out of combat stealth, where you get hit by a burst from a player you didnt even know was there is an issue. Thats solved easily just by having a max duration of stealth that cant be exceeded. But in-combat stealth, aka stealthing in the middle of a fight, is
already weak
. And yet inexplicably the mechanic so underpowered good thieves dont use it is the one people want nerfed to ludicrous degrees.

What? I just got trolled by a Daredevil who spent roughly 50% of the time stealthed. He could aggro into me in the middle of NPCs in a camp and escape with no consequences, because during the time when he wasn't stealthed he always has dodges and ports. Meanwhile I can't leave the camp because he will flip it (+ it was a long way to run to the next objective during which he will probably kill me), and I can't even map out because I'm in combat.

And I haven't even mentioned the ability to grief 8+ players hunting you in a Keep, on a class that has ports for teammates (i.e. cannot be left alone if you want to hold the objective).

Stealth is just so stupidly broken it needs to be nerfed into oblivion. "Overpowered" is the wrong word to describe it. It's the ability to grief other players that is the problem.

The biggest issue with stealth is in this post.What the poster I am quotting is saying is he can't even interact with the thief due to stealth and dodges. So he playing a video game against a class he essentially cannot interact with. That is boring and bad, and why stealth is so obscenely broken.

Yeah except that says more about him than it says about thief. Because he very much so can interact with the thief. Easily even. Stealth in-combat is trivially easy to punish after all. If he failed to do so, he just misplayed. As for "dodges", D/P thief does not have an above average amount of dodges, and when you consider the lack of invuln or block, theyre even below average. Stealth is not "obscenely broken", in the situations people complain about its horribly
underpowered
. It is stupid for out of combat scenarios, but people rarely talk about those.

Fighting against classes you can't even interact with is horrible game design and has been an issue plaguing this game for years, especially in WvW.

No such class ever existed. The closest were probably release Mirage and some version of sword weaver. And even with those you could interact with them.

Take care of your game, look at abusive combinations people are using to make their characters instantly kill someone, or be non-interactable by other players, and actually FIX THEM.

Thats ... what theyve been doing? I cant think of any class that can even oneshot anymore out of stealth (other than blasting module engineer, but that one is a complete meme), and no class is "non-interactable". And never has been. They even nerfed Mirage and Sword Weaver since.

I wonder why you're claiming I "misplayed" when 1) he didn't kill me, and 2) you agreed that I cannot possibly kill the thief if he doesn't want to be killed.

The thing is, if the thief is stupid enough to use in-combat stealth, thats one of the few ways that you can kill a thief. He is pretty shields down if he does that.

That doesn't answer any of the points that were raised, unless you are arguing that Thief is broken but stealth isn't.

To answer your points, you misplayed because you failed to kill him when he gave you the perfect opportunity to kill him with stealth. And nah, neither stealth nor thief are broken. Not being able to be killed isnt worth much if youre also not able to kill. Thief can only draw.

Why don't you say he misplayed by giving me the opportunity to kill him then. You're really grasping at straws now, because the moment you acknowledge that Thieves cannot be killed unless they allow themselves to be killed, you back up my argument. Not going to respond anymore, because you are patently not getting it (e.g. by saying that you cannot interact with Weavers and Mirages, which indicates you don't understand and/or don't want to understand what "interact" means.)

Thief is stupidly broken and needs to be nerfed into oblivion.

Man these threads these days. Dude u really need to l2p, u sound like a noob who's butt hurt cuz thieves farm u, especially on ur last statement of which ur making towards a class that got the job tittle decap bot and +1 for a reason. This whole BS gbage players post about a thief no being able to be killed unless it wants to is utter nonsense spoken by players who want easy kills instead of learning how to fight the class, god forbid other classes had to learn ALL the other classes and their common rotations to be effective, u guys cant learn one, seriously. Sure thief can use it's high mobility and access to stealth to avoid all engagements or leave a fight as soon as things get slightly dangerous but guess what? That thief will contribute very little to its team and the match. If a thief is +1ing and getting a lot of kills on u than u need to learn map awareness and not just spam ur cc. Aoe condies properly placed in the right spots are disastrous for a thief, hell I drop em and or cleave in their fields knowing their there to stacking stealth, works so often. Cc is so high in this game smart use of them combined with teefs squishyness makes quick burst kills on em easy. Most thieves are pretty predictable and stealth actually gives little defensive protection unless used from out of sight range because most leave tells on the ground and a thief can take all forms of damage while stealth'd, just cant be targeted except by channels. All classes have great defensive skills to basically nullify BS if used properly. Anyway this thread is a waste of time as the rework ur all wanting to stealth will never come, 1 cuz it's too late into the games life and 2 cuz most of u posters are clear in ur bias against the class and make suggestions that are unrealistic and would only serve to kill the class and cause a large number of players to quit the game which is already suffering a very low population. No ones left due to thief and if they had they would found something else to cry about and leave regardless.

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U put all the better players in this game in multiple 1v1 competitions and guarantee thief will be near bottom and that's ok cuz that's not its strengths..... but it does get to have strengths right? And no just moving fast but being ineffective in all and any combat scenarios is not enough as that would be such a gbage design that zero players would invest in, so next best thing is having good quick burst to utilize the mobility in +1 scenarios as thief does, but players get salty when their fighting a 1v1 in a team pvp mode but get jumped into a 2v1, too bad. A bad thief is useless and a 2 is always useless. A good thief will slow down the other teams points by decapping IF thier teams doin their jobs and yes can kill if the thief knows who to plus, thatis not OP. last night had a warrior call smokescreen OP with no counter play among other salt when he was just bad,maybe new or somthing. I popped smokescreen and sat in it autoing him while he used all his hard cc's like bulls on me and when smokescreen was done he had zero cc's left and most skills on CD so I blinded and downed him, u think he'll learn to save his cc's till after smokescreen clears or any of the other smart counter plays he could have done? Nope he wont learn but just call it OP. U guys say thief cant be killed unless it wants to? Many times I've used my shadowstep(my one stunbreak on dp) and a warrior BC me, does half 100 blades and f1 with frenzy popped and 100-0 me, or a mirage which I counter catches me off guard and does its burst on me and 15k gone, are these classes op, no their 2 of the weakest classes in the game right now. Before someone says well u miss played in those scanarios well what if using me shadoestep was a great play at the time but soon after the warrior or any of the other hard cc monster classes catch me in their cc or I get pulled into the highly damaging dh traps with burning and the ward keeping u in the aoe? Thief can be killed and is killed many times every day in gw2 and no it surely didnt want to be.

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I would gladly swap invisibility and damage ratios with sin rogue in wow. Permanent invisibility when outa combat for traversing and getting into position without using all my global skill resources and utilities, great for setting up opening bursts. Then add 2 in combat stealth, one standard and the other when not moving in combination with a shroud that nullifys spells yum yum. Cherry on top would be the sweet sweet bursts rogues do that allow it to have a chance at severely chunking even the tankier of hp bars, and in wow their tanks dwarf gw2 tanks in comparison. U guys have it lucky with thief's design and damage in this game, then again gw2 draws a certain crowd which spills over to pvp.

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@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:And as usual, people complain about the wrong element of stealth and present the
worst
possible solutions. Yes, out of combat stealth, where you get hit by a burst from a player you didnt even know was there is an issue. Thats solved easily just by having a max duration of stealth that cant be exceeded. But in-combat stealth, aka stealthing in the middle of a fight, is
already weak
. And yet inexplicably the mechanic so underpowered good thieves dont use it is the one people want nerfed to ludicrous degrees.

What? I just got trolled by a Daredevil who spent roughly 50% of the time stealthed. He could aggro into me in the middle of NPCs in a camp and escape with no consequences, because during the time when he wasn't stealthed he always has dodges and ports. Meanwhile I can't leave the camp because he will flip it (+ it was a long way to run to the next objective during which he will probably kill me), and I can't even map out because I'm in combat.

And I haven't even mentioned the ability to grief 8+ players hunting you in a Keep, on a class that has ports for teammates (i.e. cannot be left alone if you want to hold the objective).

Stealth is just so stupidly broken it needs to be nerfed into oblivion. "Overpowered" is the wrong word to describe it. It's the ability to grief other players that is the problem.

The biggest issue with stealth is in this post.What the poster I am quotting is saying is he can't even interact with the thief due to stealth and dodges. So he playing a video game against a class he essentially cannot interact with. That is boring and bad, and why stealth is so obscenely broken.

Yeah except that says more about him than it says about thief. Because he very much so can interact with the thief. Easily even. Stealth in-combat is trivially easy to punish after all. If he failed to do so, he just misplayed. As for "dodges", D/P thief does not have an above average amount of dodges, and when you consider the lack of invuln or block, theyre even below average. Stealth is not "obscenely broken", in the situations people complain about its horribly
underpowered
. It is stupid for out of combat scenarios, but people rarely talk about those.

Fighting against classes you can't even interact with is horrible game design and has been an issue plaguing this game for years, especially in WvW.

No such class ever existed. The closest were probably release Mirage and some version of sword weaver. And even with those you could interact with them.

Take care of your game, look at abusive combinations people are using to make their characters instantly kill someone, or be non-interactable by other players, and actually FIX THEM.

Thats ... what theyve been doing? I cant think of any class that can even oneshot anymore out of stealth (other than blasting module engineer, but that one is a complete meme), and no class is "non-interactable". And never has been. They even nerfed Mirage and Sword Weaver since.

I wonder why you're claiming I "misplayed" when 1) he didn't kill me, and 2) you agreed that I cannot possibly kill the thief if he doesn't want to be killed.

The thing is, if the thief is stupid enough to use in-combat stealth, thats one of the few ways that you can kill a thief. He is pretty shields down if he does that.

That doesn't answer any of the points that were raised, unless you are arguing that Thief is broken but stealth isn't.

To answer your points, you misplayed because you failed to kill him when he gave you the perfect opportunity to kill him with stealth. And nah, neither stealth nor thief are broken. Not being able to be killed isnt worth much if youre also not able to kill. Thief can only draw.

Ang on a second here. Dont pretend thief is all that squishy anymore since dmg got 33% nerfed. Also most are using -10% food, along with other dmg reduction traits from daredevil and shadow arts. They are far from 2/3 hits any more.

Thief is still plenty squishy. They were hilariously overkilled before, but you can still drop a thief in a couple hits.

Secondly, as I said before. Most thievs are using shadow arts so they cant really help but go in stealth while in combat from heal trait and deception reduce trait (steal) 90% of thieves in wvw will and do camp stealth before and mid combat. And thanks to dash they can easily kite away and open the gap so most melee cc classes cant stop bp/hs combo

You dont go into stealth while in combat, because if you try, the enemy CCs you and kills you, or just directly bursts you and kills you. And dash isnt nearly enough to get away. Try doing that into the combo against Warrior, and he bullrushes you and kills you.

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@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:And as usual, people complain about the wrong element of stealth and present the
worst
possible solutions. Yes, out of combat stealth, where you get hit by a burst from a player you didnt even know was there is an issue. Thats solved easily just by having a max duration of stealth that cant be exceeded. But in-combat stealth, aka stealthing in the middle of a fight, is
already weak
. And yet inexplicably the mechanic so underpowered good thieves dont use it is the one people want nerfed to ludicrous degrees.

What? I just got trolled by a Daredevil who spent roughly 50% of the time stealthed. He could aggro into me in the middle of NPCs in a camp and escape with no consequences, because during the time when he wasn't stealthed he always has dodges and ports. Meanwhile I can't leave the camp because he will flip it (+ it was a long way to run to the next objective during which he will probably kill me), and I can't even map out because I'm in combat.

And I haven't even mentioned the ability to grief 8+ players hunting you in a Keep, on a class that has ports for teammates (i.e. cannot be left alone if you want to hold the objective).

Stealth is just so stupidly broken it needs to be nerfed into oblivion. "Overpowered" is the wrong word to describe it. It's the ability to grief other players that is the problem.

The biggest issue with stealth is in this post.What the poster I am quotting is saying is he can't even interact with the thief due to stealth and dodges. So he playing a video game against a class he essentially cannot interact with. That is boring and bad, and why stealth is so obscenely broken.

Yeah except that says more about him than it says about thief. Because he very much so can interact with the thief. Easily even. Stealth in-combat is trivially easy to punish after all. If he failed to do so, he just misplayed. As for "dodges", D/P thief does not have an above average amount of dodges, and when you consider the lack of invuln or block, theyre even below average. Stealth is not "obscenely broken", in the situations people complain about its horribly
underpowered
. It is stupid for out of combat scenarios, but people rarely talk about those.

Fighting against classes you can't even interact with is horrible game design and has been an issue plaguing this game for years, especially in WvW.

No such class ever existed. The closest were probably release Mirage and some version of sword weaver. And even with those you could interact with them.

Take care of your game, look at abusive combinations people are using to make their characters instantly kill someone, or be non-interactable by other players, and actually FIX THEM.

Thats ... what theyve been doing? I cant think of any class that can even oneshot anymore out of stealth (other than blasting module engineer, but that one is a complete meme), and no class is "non-interactable". And never has been. They even nerfed Mirage and Sword Weaver since.

I wonder why you're claiming I "misplayed" when 1) he didn't kill me, and 2) you agreed that I cannot possibly kill the thief if he doesn't want to be killed.

The thing is, if the thief is stupid enough to use in-combat stealth, thats one of the few ways that you can kill a thief. He is pretty shields down if he does that.

That doesn't answer any of the points that were raised, unless you are arguing that Thief is broken but stealth isn't.

To answer your points, you misplayed because you failed to kill him when he gave you the perfect opportunity to kill him with stealth. And nah, neither stealth nor thief are broken. Not being able to be killed isnt worth much if youre also not able to kill. Thief can only draw.

Why don't you say he misplayed by giving me the opportunity to kill him then. You're really grasping at straws now, because the moment you acknowledge that Thieves cannot be killed unless they allow themselves to be killed, you back up my argument. Not going to respond anymore, because you are patently not getting it (e.g. by saying that you cannot interact with Weavers and Mirages, which indicates you don't understand and/or don't want to understand what "interact" means.)

Thief is stupidly broken and needs to be nerfed into oblivion.

Man these threads these days. Dude u really need to l2p, u sound like a noob who's butt hurt cuz thieves farm u, especially on ur last statement of which ur making towards a class that got the job tittle
decap bot and +1 for a reason
. This whole BS gbage players post about a thief no being able to be killed unless it wants to is utter nonsense spoken by players who want easy kills instead of learning how to fight the class, god forbid other classes had to learn ALL the other classes and their common rotations to be effective, u guys cant learn one, seriously. Sure thief can use it's high mobility and access to stealth to avoid all engagements or leave a fight as soon as things get slightly dangerous but guess what? That thief will contribute very little to its team and the match. If a thief is +1ing and getting a lot of kills on u than u need to learn map awareness and not just spam ur cc. Aoe condies properly placed in the right spots are disastrous for a thief, hell I drop em and or cleave in their fields knowing their there to stacking stealth, works so often. Cc is so high in this game smart use of them combined with teefs squishyness makes quick burst kills on em easy. Most thieves are pretty predictable and stealth actually gives little defensive protection unless used from out of sight range because most leave tells on the ground and a thief can take all forms of damage while stealth'd, just cant be targeted except by channels. All classes have great defensive skills to basically nullify BS if used properly. Anyway this thread is a waste of time as the rework ur all wanting to stealth will never come, 1 cuz it's too late into the games life and 2 cuz most of u posters are clear in ur bias against the class and make suggestions that are unrealistic and would only serve to kill the class and cause a large number of players to quit the game which is already suffering a very low population. No ones left due to thief and if they had they would found something else to cry about and leave regardless.

Lol? You realize this is the WvW forum right?

For the record, I do not think Thieves are broken in sPvP.

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@Shiyo.3578 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:You dont go into stealth while in combat

...What? That's literally how you disengage and burst.

Tbh, shadow shot is far better now since dmg got nerfed, they both hit the same lol.

If you watch them try hards from SA guild and all of their ganking friends, THEY all are stealth 90% of the time and they do it way out of range. Double dash is 900 range so even if you do have bulls up, you are too far away to position out of the blind field, you may get the cc but blinded after that and a lot of thives taking blinding powder so they stealth, blast the smoke field and break out of cc lol. Yes on the rare occasion you will kill at thief by cc the combo, especially as a warrior (as you bring that class) but the best way to down a thief has always been ranged dps. I am way more afraid of a fresh air ele or ranger on my theif than I am vs rev or warrior

Dash and shadow arts does need a a good nerf bat but wvw isn't balanced at all and spvp thief is kept in check by no capture node in stealth.

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@Hot Boy.7138 said:I think thieves should always have stealth and high access to it. Mesmers imo shouldn't have stealth because we have clones. Having clones AND stealth is too strong. It should really just be one or the other. Engineers blasting fields for stealth been a thing since the game launched. It's annoying to fight against but I think it has a cool factor since engineers should be able to do a little of everything. Keyword: A little. Rangers blasting/leaping is a bit much for me. Trap runes that give you stealth when you put down a trap is just stupid and needs to go.

Problem with that is clones are only confusing to new players and those with low PvP experience. The stealth allows a Mesmer to reposition, disengage and be able to utilize their clones briefly against the average to above average player, that second of distraction is huge. The problem is in giving it long duration stealth, which isn't as bad now between the nerfs to mirage, instant power burst, and lowering of their mobility.

Rangers use stealth to reposition and there's only a few they have access to: longbow #3 (it's a reposition skill not long duration reset), smoke scale field just 1 field (requires a leap/blast and again only grants stealth long enough to reposition), and druids aoe stealth upon exiting celestial avatar. I don't see the limited uses of stealth it has as a problem. Engineers stealth is primarily used defensively (to cast heals, stomp, disengage) or for heavy hitting animations with big tells. With toss elixir S the duration is long enough to warrant being a problem at 6s but the amount of application they have for real combat isn't that big of a deal.

The big problem is thief's application of it not only because they can constantly enter stealth at will, they can do so for long periods of time AND have the mobility/evades needed to keep resetting fights over and over. A properly played thief controls the fight and only a few classes have the tools to be able to kill it; all of which are countered by the thief they are attempting to kill.

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@Shiyo.3578 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:You dont go into stealth while in combat

...What? That's literally how you disengage and burst.

If you try to stealth to disengage, Im quite happy as an Engineer. That just means you get Grenade Barraged into downstate. No you disengage by using shortbow 5. And you burst at the start, then you go for shadowshot and heartseeker. Maybe an instant burst if you use hidden thief. But you rarely get the backstab on the back, so its usually not worth it.

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@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:You dont go into stealth while in combat

...What? That's literally how you disengage and burst.

Tbh, shadow shot is far better now since dmg got nerfed, they both hit the same lol.

If you watch them try hards from SA guild and all of their ganking friends, THEY all are stealth 90% of the time and they do it way out of range. Double dash is 900 range so even if you do have bulls up, you are too far away to position out of the blind field, you may get the cc but blinded after that and a lot of thives taking blinding powder so they stealth, blast the smoke field and break out of cc lol. Yes on the rare occasion you will kill at thief by cc the combo, especially as a warrior (as you bring that class) but the best way to down a thief has always been ranged dps. I am way more afraid of a fresh air ele or ranger on my theif than I am vs rev or warrior

900 units over 1.5 seconds. In those same 1.5 seconds at the bare minimum you travel 315 units, so theyre >600 units away at most. Less if you have swiftness. Bull's charge is 900 range. You will hit Bull's charge. And as for the blind, it pulses once every 2 seconds. Just use hundred blades. Itll remove one tick, and the rest still kills thief. As for Black Powder, congratulations. You forced him to use a very important cooldown. If he doesnt run away, youll be able to kill him soon enough. And melees generally have an easier time punishing stealth than ranged classes.

Dash and shadow arts does need a a good nerf bat but wvw isn't balanced at all and spvp thief is kept in check by no capture node in stealth.

They dont. And sPvP isnt kept in check by that at all. If you could hold nodes in stealth, it wouldnt really help thief. Theif either stands on empty points, or +1s someone else who contests a point.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Permastealth is still a thing, unfortunately, some players have worked around Anet's nerfs in the last 2 months. A deadeye can stay hidden within a location indefinitely, and if they stay in one location where nobody looks anymore after a capture or breakin.....you will never ever know they were ever there. Several locations such as Northeast outer bay, after capture, a mesmer or deadeye can remain stealthed and wont' show up as a dot on the map. Same thing with Air keep on the red borderland at the vista point at the most southern portion of the lip, won't appear as a dot and a permastealth can just stand in that spot, without anyone the wiser. I found a lot of challenege with stealthed, or invisible opponants. However that means i'm happy with an opponant that can continuously remain stealthed forever. It's bull. And it's stupid that Stealth Traps are completely worthless against Deadeyes. That's bull too. "oh but they appear for a second...." A second....and then you have to lay down more stealth traps....but you can't lay them down without him noticing because he sees you 10 feet away, kneeling...knowing full well WHERE the stealth trap is being placed. SERIOUSLY...anet....Permastealth AGAIN!?

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So you know where they are. Sniff to confirm they are there. Then toss a target painter and camp the spot to force them off and into the Marked section of the keep.

Also, Marked is a significant debuff because it forces the thief to burn cooldowns. If anyone is chasing a thief around it also reduces the initiative the thief has to gain stealth.

But none of this matters because spending 20 minutes hiding in a keep is usually a waste of time. If a Zerg can avoid being scouted to show up at a keep and then get ported inside that is a massive failure on the part of the defending team. Meanwhile that thief has to actively work to maintain stealth for an extended period on the off chance that the aforesaid Zerg will manage that, or even care enough to try. Most of the time that Zerg sneaking to the keep will be able to put down three or four catas and open it up pretty fast. That’s usually how keeps get flipped unless you are talking about a havoc group of five players stealth capping, which is entirely easy to defend against (and delay long enough for more defenders to show up).

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@"Azreell.1568" said:Is there absolutely anything this player base will not complain about???

Stealth is easily countered in group play especially with hammer revs in the current meta on pushes so it's not like everyone doesn't have access to reveals.

Also other classes have access to reveals as well - add into that the Marked debuff.

I mean stealth is very balanced as it stands in group play.

Now, for roaming - which this game mode should never be balanced from sure stealth is an advantage but not overpowered. Some classes are designed with having stealth in mind.

But, lets be frank - dead eye riffle spec would be a free kill without it and is only viable in roaming - so that's it's thing. Its useless pretty much in all other game modes.

Here's what I got out of this post , "Stealth is OP and it makes me tink man. I know itz got dem counters but I have to use my brain. IT SHOULD BE NERFED. LONG LIVE THE OLD SCHOOL HAMMER TRAIN BOYZ".......

No thanx.............

Pretty much most people have quit playing especially over the last few balance patches that they are going to have to rename their new expansion...

End of Development

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@"saerni.2584" said:So you know where they are. Sniff to confirm they are there. Then toss a target painter and camp the spot to force them off and into the Marked section of the keep.

Also, Marked is a significant debuff because it forces the thief to burn cooldowns. If anyone is chasing a thief around it also reduces the initiative the thief has to gain stealth.

But none of this matters because spending 20 minutes hiding in a keep is usually a waste of time. If a Zerg can avoid being scouted to show up at a keep and then get ported inside that is a massive failure on the part of the defending team. Meanwhile that thief has to actively work to maintain stealth for an extended period on the off chance that the aforesaid Zerg will manage that, or even care enough to try. Most of the time that Zerg sneaking to the keep will be able to put down three or four catas and open it up pretty fast. That’s usually how keeps get flipped unless you are talking about a havoc group of five players stealth capping, which is entirely easy to defend against (and delay long enough for more defenders to show up).

Sniff against a STEALTHED opponant. mmmhmmm... As for the teams doing a "mesmer/thief sweep"....according to the commanders, "who cares". When your team no longer cares, that's left up to the solo artists, and they get frustrated to all hell trying to run down an individual without teammate support. I will agree, any time that gets the "I don't care" attitude of sweeps should lose that location. Even if it's my own team, I tell my fellow mates, "you didn't care enough to sweep, this is the consequance."

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Stealth it's not a problem, yes it's annoying but there's a lot of ways that you can deal with it, including running away (imagine that). Spaming stealth it's a whole different problem with thieves beign the mayor ofender in this topic, that beign said, the solution it's quite simple imo. Put freaking CD on thieves weapons skills, there, problem solve, now thieves can have buffs and be relevant in all the other types of gamemodes.

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