Jump to content
  • Sign Up

Reduce Guard's retaliation up time


Eugchriss.2046

Recommended Posts

Retal is just annoying on old Core Guard variants, like GS/SwordFocus, but now because of how tanky a Core Guard can be built on the sidenodes you really need to use all of your offensive cooldowns and just spam with no regards to your own HP to even have a slight chance of killing the Core Guard on a multitude of classes, either its sustain needs to be cut by ALOT, retal uptime needs to go down, or the Symbol Trait needs to be completely revamped. The latter of the 3 changes would do both, cut its sustain just a tiny bit of course, but also make the counterpressure of the build much lower.

Your counter pressure on any sidenode build should not be putting down fields, your counterpressure on any build should not be Retaliation.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 60
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@Khalisto.5780 said:Mesmers have aegis

And you can avoid retalion with incredible stow weapons keybind

guards have perm retal? u gonna spam stow weapon all game long?

No they don't. Only a Radiance power build has high retal uptime, and nobody is playing that, and even then it's not 100%. Symbol guard, burn guard, symbolbrand, none of them have high retal uptime. Elixir engi/holo/scrapper builds have higher uptime than guardian does. Is retal overpowered on engi?

all u need is wrathful spirit on zeal to give perm retal passivelyespecially symbol builds use this

How do you figure that one? How are you producing an Aegis every 4 seconds? Why don't you link the skills that are doing this. We'll wait.

ye mantra heal and shield or mace and shield, on top of your initial block and active one you can useif u win ez then maybe zeal passive symbol will not proc, but otherwise u will have perm retal until every fight is over

Over a 90s period, you can use F3 twice, shield 4 times, mace-3 6 times, for a total of 12 aegis over 90 seconds. That'll give you 48s of retal.

And that is assuming you use those things EXACTLY on cooldown, which you would never do, since you save them for appropriate moments.

Where's the other 42s coming from?

3x zealot speed and 3x valorous defense = 48 sec of retali understand it's not solely a math game, but if u save ur blocks for appropriate moments you are gonna have retal on the appropriate moment

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@DonNee.5128 said:

@Khalisto.5780 said:Mesmers have aegis

And you can avoid retalion with incredible stow weapons keybind

guards have perm retal? u gonna spam stow weapon all game long?

No they don't. Only a Radiance power build has high retal uptime, and nobody is playing that, and even then it's not 100%. Symbol guard, burn guard, symbolbrand, none of them have high retal uptime. Elixir engi/holo/scrapper builds have higher uptime than guardian does. Is retal overpowered on engi?

all u need is wrathful spirit on zeal to give perm retal passivelyespecially symbol builds use this

How do you figure that one? How are you producing an Aegis every 4 seconds? Why don't you link the skills that are doing this. We'll wait.

ye mantra heal and shield or mace and shield, on top of your initial block and active one you can useif u win ez then maybe zeal passive symbol will not proc, but otherwise u will have perm retal until every fight is over

Over a 90s period, you can use F3 twice, shield 4 times, mace-3 6 times, for a total of 12 aegis over 90 seconds. That'll give you 48s of retal.

And that is assuming you use those things EXACTLY on cooldown, which you would never do, since you save them for appropriate moments.

Where's the other 42s coming from?

3x zealot speed and 3x valorous defense = 48 sec of retali understand it's not solely a math game, but if u save ur blocks for appropriate moments you are gonna have retal on the appropriate moment

It's 36s, not 48s (EDIT: my mistake, forgot to account for extra symbol duration), and you won't be entering a fight on 50% HP. A bunker will certainly not be triggering those on cooldown. Also assumes sitting full duration in lesser symbol of wrath.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@Khalisto.5780 said:Mesmers have aegis

And you can avoid retalion with incredible stow weapons keybind

guards have perm retal? u gonna spam stow weapon all game long?

No they don't. Only a Radiance power build has high retal uptime, and nobody is playing that, and even then it's not 100%. Symbol guard, burn guard, symbolbrand, none of them have high retal uptime. Elixir engi/holo/scrapper builds have higher uptime than guardian does. Is retal overpowered on engi?

all u need is wrathful spirit on zeal to give perm retal passivelyespecially symbol builds use this

How do you figure that one? How are you producing an Aegis every 4 seconds? Why don't you link the skills that are doing this. We'll wait.

ye mantra heal and shield or mace and shield, on top of your initial block and active one you can useif u win ez then maybe zeal passive symbol will not proc, but otherwise u will have perm retal until every fight is over

Over a 90s period, you can use F3 twice, shield 4 times, mace-3 6 times, for a total of 12 aegis over 90 seconds. That'll give you 48s of retal.

And that is assuming you use those things EXACTLY on cooldown, which you would never do, since you save them for appropriate moments.

Where's the other 42s coming from?

3x zealot speed and 3x valorous defense = 48 sec of retali understand it's not solely a math game, but if u save ur blocks for appropriate moments you are gonna have retal on the appropriate moment

It's 36s, not 48s, and you won't be entering a fight on 50% HP. A bunker will certainly not be triggering those on cooldown. Also assumes sitting full duration in lesser symbol of wrath.

Am I missing some thing using gw2 skill editor I see 2 secs x3 for zealots speed and 3 aegis for valorous defense which will end up 3x4 + 6 which is 18 secs. Is gw2 skill editor wrong?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@Khalisto.5780 said:Mesmers have aegis

And you can avoid retalion with incredible stow weapons keybind

guards have perm retal? u gonna spam stow weapon all game long?

No they don't. Only a Radiance power build has high retal uptime, and nobody is playing that, and even then it's not 100%. Symbol guard, burn guard, symbolbrand, none of them have high retal uptime. Elixir engi/holo/scrapper builds have higher uptime than guardian does. Is retal overpowered on engi?

all u need is wrathful spirit on zeal to give perm retal passivelyespecially symbol builds use this

How do you figure that one? How are you producing an Aegis every 4 seconds? Why don't you link the skills that are doing this. We'll wait.

ye mantra heal and shield or mace and shield, on top of your initial block and active one you can useif u win ez then maybe zeal passive symbol will not proc, but otherwise u will have perm retal until every fight is over

Over a 90s period, you can use F3 twice, shield 4 times, mace-3 6 times, for a total of 12 aegis over 90 seconds. That'll give you 48s of retal.

And that is assuming you use those things EXACTLY on cooldown, which you would never do, since you save them for appropriate moments.

Where's the other 42s coming from?

3x zealot speed and 3x valorous defense = 48 sec of retali understand it's not solely a math game, but if u save ur blocks for appropriate moments you are gonna have retal on the appropriate moment

It's 36s, not 48s, and you won't be entering a fight on 50% HP. A bunker will certainly not be triggering those on cooldown. Also assumes sitting full duration in lesser symbol of wrath.

ye i assumed symbol guardian sits full duration in symbols and spams skills off cooldowneven if the guard doesn't use syg, weapon reduction traits or the crazy idea of using travelers over lynx and let's say your calculations were even correct, you are looking at 84 secs retal out of 90 sec?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"Eugchriss.2046" said:It's all in the title. Being able to deal ~10k+ free damage with a passive boon is too much. And beyond that, since aegis and retaliation are complementary, guard is the only class that shouldn't have access to this boon at all since the have the monopole of aegis.This class retaliation uptime needs to be shaved really hard.

Retaliation is a problem as it punishes people succeeding to land many small hits more than people landing one big hit. That's an heavy counter to many weapons (e.g., you can never use GS#2 without killing yourself in a teamfight; while it is designed to be a meat grinder).

Besides that, I feel like you are especially salty towards guards. There is only one build that combines both retaliation and aegis which is bunker symbol. Because:

  • Condi guard needs to keep virtues under cooldown to proc burning, which only generates retaliation when activated. It has NO aegis spam (one block each 32s cannot be considered OP with in nowaday's game). This aegis is untreated and does nothing besides a single block. So basically a build without retaliation and aegis.
  • DPS guard IS heavily dependent to retaliation (huge damage boost) BUT has NO aegis spam (same as condi guard).
  • Symbol bunker guard has both ... and way more: this build relies heavily on aegis + big symbols + protection to survive. Pure of heart makes aegis a wonderful healing boost. Retaliation is a by-product of wrathful spirit minor trait that is conveniently located ... in symbols traitline.

If you are mad against condi guard and DPS guard, trust me it, is not because you got hit by retaliation. These builds have low active defenses and can't sustain "many small hits" enough for retaliation to be actually effective. Dont facetank their burst and damage them while their burst is over.

If you are mad against bunker symbol then I have to confess I am too. But hitting retaliation output of this build (or guard in general) won't solve the problem, as it is only a by-product. Reduce/remove the damage of their symbols (or remove Writh or persistence trait) so that it is more healthy in a node-based gamemode. Rework mace so that it is not a bunker weapon anymore (#2 offers way too much healing, #3 got powercreeped in 2016 patch -Who said HoT ??- with massive damage + protection + aegis).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10k retaliation damage is 50 hits. With 50 hits you can kill the guard 3 times even if use multi hit skill exclusively. If you use single hit burst skills you can kill the guard 10 times before retaliation kills you.

In the average fight against a guard that can keep up retail the each time he is attacked, it does something around 2k damage before the guard dies. There is nothing to complain about for a boon that requires a specific build with tradeoffs.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Aza.2105 said:

@felix.2386 said:warrior take half their own hp bar away by landing axe 5 on guard lul

Then don't use axe 5 on a guard with retaliation. It seems like a very very simple solution to me.

except that guard always has retaliation, and when they don't they just shelter or aegis or focus 5 or just CCing you.guard has so many damage mitigation that covering retal gap is literally childs game.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@KrHome.1920 said:10k retaliation damage is 50 hits. With 50 hits you can kill the guard 3 times even if use multi hit skill exclusively. If you use single hit burst skills you can kill the guard 10 times before retaliation kills you.

In the average fight against a guard that can keep up retail the each time he is attacked, it does something around 2k damage before the guard dies. There is nothing to complain about for a boon that requires a specific build with tradeoffs.

As a necro of course you can kill guards, but most classes can't kill it (holo included to a degree). At least decap scrapper can knock them away.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@Khalisto.5780 said:Mesmers have aegis

And you can avoid retalion with incredible stow weapons keybind

guards have perm retal? u gonna spam stow weapon all game long?

No they don't. Only a Radiance power build has high retal uptime, and nobody is playing that, and even then it's not 100%. Symbol guard, burn guard, symbolbrand, none of them have high retal uptime. Elixir engi/holo/scrapper builds have higher uptime than guardian does. Is retal overpowered on engi?

Yes and no. Core power guardian running gs, sword has more than 100% uptime uptime on retaliation. Way more. Not literally, but stripping means little since the can apply it again. Though ya.. you want see that. FB has zero retaliation, if I remember correctly. For condi core, it depends. If the core guardian Burn runs virtues they will have good uptime. Zeal, maybe, depending on traits. Unlikely to pick the adept major trait for retaliation after aegis over the scepter might trait.

As a whole, considering that damage overall had nearly 50% nerf across the board, retaliation is 50% stronger. Still, it is not that major source of damage. 250 or so per hit. It adds up, but is only that effective against multi hit attacks.

As a whole, retaliation is a stupid boon that should be removed.

@felix.2386 said:

@Aza.2105 said:

@felix.2386 said:warrior take half their own hp bar away by landing axe 5 on guard lul

Then don't use axe 5 on a guard with retaliation. It seems like a very very simple solution to me.

except that guard always has retaliation, and when they don't they just shelter or aegis or focus 5 or just CCing you.guard has so many damage mitigation that covering retal gap is literally childs game.

That is the opposite of how to use retaliation. You are supposed to used when you will get attacked not when you are not going to get attacked. Unless you play power core where it has 100% uptime, all the time.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Retaliation is a boon that ws designed as a counter to builds with multiple hitting skills. It's the opposite of aegis, which counters builds relying on a few heavy hits. Just don't be an NPC and spam your 20-hit spins and channels on a guardian that popped retal... yes the uptime is high, boon corrupt/removal is a thing though!

If you're playing a build that delivers pressure through small power-damage packets(and lack boonremoval) retaliation was designed to counter you. Get over it and fight something else, something you might actually defeat.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Tharan.9085 said:

@Khalisto.5780 said:Mesmers have aegis

And you can avoid retalion with incredible stow weapons keybind

mesmers have what?

Isnt there a trait that gives aegis on disable aswell?

it got removed, mesmer can get aegis fromsignet of inspiration -> rng proc every 10schaos storm -> rng proc every ~ 30s dont even remember 36s? + you can get another storm every ~75s if you go chaosAA in chaos converts burning into aegis, thats about it.

editchrono well, every 45s or whatever the cd is these days

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Retal should work like superspeed(boon duration doesn't work on it and it won't stack duration) but be MUCH more potent while also having MUCH lower uptime.Retal skills should basically be "Oh, I need to stop attacking for 2s or I kill myself"

The current implementation of retal is passive, non-interactive, and bad gameplay.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"Shiyo.3578" said:Retal should work like superspeed(boon duration doesn't work on it and it won't stack duration) but be MUCH more potent while also having MUCH lower uptime.Retal skills should basically be "Oh, I nee to stop attacking for 2s or I kill myself"

The current implementation of retal is passive, non-interactive, and bad gameplay.

That’s actually interesting. Not sure if ppl will like bursty retal though

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"Shiyo.3578" said:Retal should work like superspeed(boon duration doesn't work on it and it won't stack duration) but be MUCH more potent while also having MUCH lower uptime.Retal skills should basically be "Oh, I nee to stop attacking for 2s or I kill myself"

The current implementation of retal is passive, non-interactive, and bad gameplay.

so like.. magnetic aura which auto kills blind rangers and deadeyes leading them to then make rage threads about OP tempest QQ. Yes. 10/10 do this right now Anet. It would be an amazing mechanic requiring some sort attention from people.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Make Retal scale to Health :^)

Retal damage = 30 + 1% of Max Health.

An average Guardian build maybe has at most 17k health, making it 200 damage.

If the players using Retal has lower health, it becomes even less effective.

Also it let's people who stack health as a meme to deal serious chip damage with only Retal even if their other damage sources suck.

Retal currently being 200 base with 0.75 Power Scaling is kinda weird to me anyway, because it just benefits building offensive stacks on a Boon that gains value with being hit.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"Shiyo.3578" said:Retal should work like superspeed(boon duration doesn't work on it and it won't stack duration) but be MUCH more potent while also having MUCH lower uptime.Retal skills should basically be "Oh, I need to stop attacking for 2s or I kill myself"

The current implementation of retal is passive, non-interactive, and bad gameplay.

I would rather they either completely remove it or just neuter the damage in sPvP. Having it work like it does on boss mobs in PvE is an extremely bad idea. It is even bad design in PvE. Cuz if you do not have boon removal you literally cannot attack for the entire duration. This is aegis, with duration, on extreme crack.

I think the best option is to remove it, and just move the respective class buffs to a different boon.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"Shiyo.3578" said:Retal should work like superspeed(boon duration doesn't work on it and it won't stack duration) but be MUCH more potent while also having MUCH lower uptime.Retal skills should basically be "Oh, I need to stop attacking for 2s or I kill myself"

The current implementation of retal is passive, non-interactive, and bad gameplay.

No boon should be that powerful. The current iteration of retal is indeed semi passive, as it should be. It has minimal impact. Having boons like stability and resistance is already problematic, there is no need to elevate more boons to this status.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...