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Why this meta is not fun


Happy Yes.1453

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Any team in a ranked game has 1 to 4 (depending on the rating) players with one purpose: being a tanky healthbar on a node and spamming aoe. They have no mechanical skills, they have no knowledge of the meta and don't know how to rotate. They just run in a straight line to a random node and faceroll their keyboard on that node.

The worst thing about this: these people are very often the deciding factor in the game. These players end up with some average gold rating regardless of any skill or knowledge. Because of the low population, these players will also show up in high rated games. If they tank a capped node, they can sometimes add a lot of value to your team. This is certainly the case if one of the enemy tanky players decides to 1v1 that. A tanky player 1v1ing on an enemy capped node, suddenly has no value and becomes almost uncarryable.

Every team in ranked has this type of braindead players and the completely random interactions between them almost always decide the outcome of the game.

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@Chaith.8256 said:

@Happy Yes.1453 said:A tanky player 1v1ing on an enemy capped node, suddenly has no value and becomes almost uncarryable.

Actually a quick +1 with a mobile class can set up your teammate up to impact the game hugely better. Pretty carryable.

This is assuming your teammate isn't instantly dead on the node tanking every form of damage the enemy is using while also contributing zero damage.

The OP is pretty right, bunkers are an issue, and have been an issue since 1.0. Anet has done so much to nerf bunkers, especially with amulet removals, but they are still far too effective for ZERO mechanical skill or game knowledge required.

However, right now, the biggest issue with bunkers is the fact they can mash all their AOE on a node and make it impossible to fight back unless you are an above average player and can predict their AOE, avoid their AOE, and know exactly what their class is capable of. Meanwhile they don't need to know or do anything besides tunnel vision the node spamming AOE - the issue is the effort required to play vs the effort required to beat. You need to be too much of a better player to beat someone spamming AOE on a node with 0 clue how your class works.

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As a PvE customer Meta is one of my most hated things in an mmorpg.. Partially why i avoid pvp, wvw Raids even etc, because i play for choices.. PvP is so shoe horned into meta you are literally forced to play certain builds or not play at all.. Nothing else is ok..

I kinda equate meta to a very long hallway with no doors and something behind you pushing you forward, playing a game like that is just not fun at all for me.

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I'm really bored in PvP, I find nothing but bunkers with zero mechanical skill, 0 map awareness, and just have to play "avoid pvp" in a pvp match anytime there's unkillable bunkers in the game. It's very boring.

PvP shouldn't consist of me spending 90%+ of matches actively AVOIDING pvp.

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@Coeruleum.9164 said:

@Fueki.4753 said:StealthBunkerstoo much CCtoo many conditions

There are many reasons why PvP is not fun.

But not
every
game has bunkers.

Stealth, bunkers, CC, and conditions make this game fun IMO. Otherwise, it'd just be an FPS without a scope.

PvP should be about interactions between players.Stealth and the current CC situation, which allows for permanent stunlocks, take one player out of the equation, there for actively go against what PvP should be.Bunkers hardly take any damage (unless you are the optimal counter for them), so they make it pointless to try and interact with them, causing them to go against what PvP should be.And conditions are just bad by design. If Power damage needs three stats to work and has to go through defence, why is condition damage allowed to work with just two stats (and sometimes even just one stat) and ignore defences?

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Nothing stunlocks in PvP besides tempest shock aura in team fights.

Agreed I don't interact with bunkers, I literally outrotate and avoid them which is...actively avoiding PvP in a PvP game mode and contradicts the entire purpose of what I'm doing. I'm there to PvP, but I'm avoiding it?!?!

Condition dmg outside of burn and condi rangers/condi thieves randomly globalling you isn't an issue at least..but condition damage is silly design, yeah.

Stealth you also do not interact with and is the most overpowered stealth I've ever seen in a PvP game and I played WC3 DOTA which had Rikimaru, lol.

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I find the meta better than it has been in a couple patches ago. But I agree it's not great.Warriors are trash, mesmers are kinda bad but still annoying, necro/reaper/tempest/thieves are rly strong, holo is on another level :)core symbol guardian is too strong for the effort, as well as previous bunker rev builds

would love to play a game where the company actually does something instead of earning money from gemstore and that's it

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@"Dante.1508" said:As a PvE customer Meta is one of my most hated things in an mmorpg.. Partially why i avoid pvp, wvw Raids even etc, because i play for choices.. PvP is so shoe horned into meta you are literally forced to play certain builds or not play at all.. Nothing else is ok..

I kinda equate meta to a very long hallway with no doors and something behind you pushing you forward, playing a game like that is just not fun at all for me.

Except "meta" is in no way a uniform concept. What works in gold 1 does not necessarily work in plat 2. It also depends a lot on group comp. If everyone else in a game is running random builds, there's no guarantee your meta build will dominate them. Often the meta is defined by what can counter your build and there exist hard counters to current meta builds that don't typically see play because they are not particularly effective in the overall meta.

There is a ton of room to play the way you want to play, particularly if you aren't playing at the highest levels.

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@Chaith.8256 said:

@Happy Yes.1453 said:A tanky player 1v1ing on an enemy capped node, suddenly has no value and becomes almost uncarryable.

Actually a quick +1 with a mobile class can set up your teammate up to impact the game hugely better. Pretty carryable.

OH yeah super fun, an mmo where you have to wait for a friend to aid you just to win a freaking 1v1, which is no longer considered a 1v1.It gets specially fun and interactive when your opponent has enough sustain to outrun you and your ganking friend so nobody dies, yay anet! So much fun, combat with no consequences.

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@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@"Dante.1508" said:As a PvE customer Meta is one of my most hated things in an mmorpg.. Partially why i avoid pvp, wvw Raids even etc, because i play for choices.. PvP is so shoe horned into meta you are literally forced to play certain builds or not play at all.. Nothing else is ok..

I kinda equate meta to a very long hallway with no doors and something behind you pushing you forward, playing a game like that is just not fun at all for me.

Except "meta" is in no way a uniform concept. What works in gold 1 does not necessarily work in plat 2. It also depends a lot on group comp. If everyone else in a game is running random builds, there's no guarantee your meta build will dominate them. Often the meta is defined by what can counter your build and there exist hard counters to current meta builds that don't typically see play because they are not particularly effective in the overall meta.

There is a ton of room to play the way you want to play, particularly if you aren't playing at the highest levels.

In this game that doesn't apply, broken builds are just broken, when skilled players grab those builds they ruin pvp for everyone who reaches past gold 2 from gold 2 to silver 1 all players just copy paste those builds and somehow climb, and the only players who play this game for fun and for choices, are stuck below silver 1 with meme builds they create, summit1g exposed this by trying the game a few weeks ago, the first 20 matches he had a great time, as soon as he was stuck in a match with somewhat decent players using those stupid builds it was all over for him, he left so fast anet couldn't even reach the patron stuff for him. And not because he was beeing mauled by more skilled players, he left because he quickly realized he had no future in this game because he wouldn't enjoy playing those annoying aoe builds.

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@"Dante.1508" said:As a PvE customer Meta is one of my most hated things in an mmorpg.. Partially why i avoid pvp, wvw Raids even etc, because i play for choices.. PvP is so shoe horned into meta you are literally forced to play certain builds or not play at all.. Nothing else is ok..

I kinda equate meta to a very long hallway with no doors and something behind you pushing you forward, playing a game like that is just not fun at all for me.

I think you're getting confused by jargon.

The "metagame" is all the knowledge and decision-making that goes on outside the scope of a match. In a game with a "deck-building" aspect (like character builds in GW2), it's about what kinds of tools you can expect your team mates and opponents to have at their disposable, the strengths and weaknesses of the strategy they've selected before going into a match. Choices are what produce the metagame in the first place.

The metagame will always exist regardless of how much people gravitate towards established popular builds vs. rogue builds (that's why we talk about narrow vs. diverse meta, for example). It is, quite simply, the wider environment of play that comes about from the sum of all of our choices.

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@kraai.7265 said:

@Happy Yes.1453 said:A tanky player 1v1ing on an enemy capped node, suddenly has no value and becomes almost uncarryable.

Actually a quick +1 with a mobile class can set up your teammate up to impact the game hugely better. Pretty carryable.

OH yeah super fun, an mmo where you have to wait for a friend to aid you just to win a freaking 1v1, which is no longer considered a 1v1.It gets specially fun and interactive when your opponent has enough sustain to outrun you and your ganking friend so nobody dies, yay anet! So much fun, combat with no consequences.

... It's capture points. The goal of the game mode is the capture points. The only reason the 1v1 is happening in the first place is because teams are splitting to try to better grab the capture points.

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@"kraai.7265" said:

In this game that doesn't apply, broken builds are just broken, when skilled players grab those builds they ruin pvp for everyone who reaches past gold 2 from gold 2 to silver 1 all players just copy paste those builds and somehow climb, and the only players who play this game for fun and for choices, are stuck below silver 1 with meme builds they create, summit1g exposed this by trying the game a few weeks ago, the first 20 matches he had a great time, as soon as he was stuck in a match with somewhat decent players using those stupid builds it was all over for him, he left so fast anet couldn't even reach the patron stuff for him. And not because he was beeing mauled by more skilled players, he left because he quickly realized he had no future in this game because he wouldn't enjoy playing those annoying aoe builds.

Eh. I doubt, with his mindset and approach, summit would have stuck around even in a different meta. I just don't think he likes the genre in general, and GW2 in particular (which is perfectly fine, they're not for everyone). His complaints amounted to "why can't my halfassedly built rifle warrior contest points?!?!", which is like someone who brings their rusted out station wagon to a drag race and complains that they can't win. If he cared at all about doing GW2 pvp, he'd at least learn a better warrior build, or figure out some other way to handle the aoes. I, for one, found it highly embarrassing how hyped the community got about some streamer who really doesn't care for our type of game. It was pretty obvious he wasn't going to stick around, at least to me.

As for the aoe meta, I'm not a fan myself, but that's also why I only do unranked. There are still plenty of circles there, but at least it's less dominated by the same small number of builds.

Also, skill still matters. I could blanket the node in aoe, and a skilled player like @Chaith.8256 could still outplay me on side nodes in places like the Eternal Coliseum or Niflhel. Well, at least when he's not playing some meme juggernaut scrapper build lol. The low damage meta makes it significantly harder for that to happen that it used to, but I've seen some higher ranked names in my unranked matches significantly outplay the faceroll builds, when the latter are being played by weak meta slave players.

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@voltaicbore.8012 said:

@"kraai.7265" said:

In this game that doesn't apply, broken builds are just broken, when skilled players grab those builds they ruin pvp for everyone who reaches past gold 2 from gold 2 to silver 1 all players just copy paste those builds and somehow climb, and the only players who play this game for fun and for choices, are stuck below silver 1 with meme builds they create, summit1g exposed this by trying the game a few weeks ago, the first 20 matches he had a great time, as soon as he was stuck in a match with somewhat decent players using those stupid builds it was all over for him, he left so fast anet couldn't even reach the patron stuff for him. And not because he was beeing mauled by more skilled players, he left because he quickly realized he had no future in this game because he wouldn't enjoy playing those annoying aoe builds.

Eh. I doubt, with his mindset and approach, summit would have stuck around even in a different meta. I just don't think he likes the genre in general, and GW2 in particular (which is perfectly fine, they're not for everyone). His complaints amounted to "why can't my halfassedly built rifle warrior contest points?!?!", which is like someone who brings their rusted out station wagon to a drag race and complains that they can't win. If he cared at all about doing GW2 pvp, he'd at least learn a better warrior build, or figure out some other way to handle the aoes. I, for one, found it highly embarrassing how hyped the community got about some streamer who really doesn't care for our type of game. It was pretty obvious he wasn't going to stick around, at least to me.

As for the aoe meta, I'm not a fan myself, but that's also why I only do unranked. There are still plenty of circles there, but at least it's less dominated by the same small number of builds.

Dude, why? What steers gw2 players to keep making excuses to defend this game? It's so hard to accept our beloved game is trashed?

  1. If summit doesn't like mmorpg, why is he trying out absolutely every one out there? And why is he still actively playing Elder scrolls online on off stream hours? And even pvping there?
  2. Yes at first he was playing a meme roleplay build, and just having fun, that brief time playing on low tier motivated him to activate expansions, claim spellbreaker builds, and try to get as close as meta as possible without quiting the class he enjoyed to just join the braindead aoe spam meta train. He even watched the hole teapot video about combat basics on stream to learn what he was doing wrong.
  3. As soon as he fought silver or gold players using those stupid builds he quitted the game, before that he was having a blast, and he actually stated that all the passive interactions between aoe's, unfair or cheesy passives, break out of jail unnecessary skills (holo's specially) and the fact that everyone he met was using either a perma stealth build or an inmortal bunker build forced him to quit the game.

And I know that not only because he said it himself (he was even starting to doubt about quitting ESO to play gw2)but because when he came back and I saw the low tier pvp matches, I was encouraged to go back and try out this "balance patch" everyone was talking about, the only difference is my character always landed in plat 2, so I couldn't even enjoy that unranked phase were people play just for fun.I got in, played like no more than 5 matches, encountered nothing more than perma stealth thieves, condi spammers, bunker spammers, went to wvw, every one using the most cheesy stupid risk free build, the ones that let you just run away every single time you fuck up something, and uninstalled again.

We have to face it, the game forces you to make a choice, die in silver playing what you enjoy, or join the freaking braindead train grab a meta bunk spammer build and hit your keyboard with your face as hard as you can every single match while staying on a node basically botting...

EDIT1: well.. i was actually that bored, here watch this video, he litterally complains about endless aoes on the first 5 seconds...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_UYblolaS8

EDIT2: You said it yourself, if skill mattered then chaith would be able to kill you with a scrapper build, yet that's not the case, unless he runs holo meta build, ofc you need to know how to press buttons and move to still be effective on a meta build, but it would be insane to argue that today's meta builds are harder to master than the ones we got in last expansion or even core gw2, the skill cap is insanely lower, and on equal skill level builds define every single fight.

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@"kraai.7265" said:

Dude, why? What steers gw2 players to keep making excuses to defend this game? It's so hard to accept our beloved game is trashed?

I'll refrain from giving a point-by-point rebuttal, because I actually agree that the current meta is not fun, and I don't want to contribute to the impression that I like it. I just want to note that you seemed to miss my point - I'm not saying that aoe spam on nodes is fun, but I'm saying that summit's engagement with spvp isn't a good criticism of it.

And yes, I am aware he watched Teapot's video. I sub to Teapot but missed it when it first dropped, so I ended up watching it through the "summit reacts to Teapot" version. He was dismissive of the importance of stacking boons (just assumed that getting 25 might was, for practical purposes, unattainable), railed at needing to possibly add a keybind for about face, and many other basic things that you should care about before you assessment of GW2 spvp should be taken seriously. I just don't think he cares for the depth of consideration you need to win fights in an mmo setting (which is again, perfectly fine), so his dissatisfaction with spvp means nothing to me.

But again, I feel like saying much more will give the impression that I'm defending the current meta, which I am not. I used to play GW2 almost exclusively, but lately I've been in BDO about 90% of my game time and only pop in for spvp dailies and some light gold farming on GW2. I consider the source of the current problem the severe damage reductions from the February megapatch. Even at the height of scourge madness at PoF launch, I could deal with a scourge from a safe mid- or long-range because it was possible to apply enough pressure to scare one into making mistakes that I could capitalize on. Now, it's much more difficult for a plat 1/2 grade player like myself to unseat even a half-awake aoe bunker fast enough to make the fight worth it. This is what I also hated about pre-nerf side bunker weaver - it could be fought against, but it was often smarter to just rotate out.

So I agree that it is bad design to have a meta where the right answer is to not fight something at all. I just disagree that anyone should care about how summit felt about GW2 spvp.

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@kraai.7265 said:You said it yourself, if skill mattered then chaith would be able to kill you with a scrapper build, yet that's not the case, unless he runs holo meta build, ofc you need to >know how to press buttons and move to still be effective on a meta build, but it would be insane to argue that today's meta builds are harder to master than the ones we >got in last expansion or even core gw2, the skill cap is insanely lower, and on equal skill level builds define every single fight.

The average skill caps of builds has not changed much, so no, it's not insane to say that. Seems that way because in core GW2 people didn't have years of game knowledge about how to create metas. Reaching skill cap on most classes entails the exact same thing it does now as it did in 2015, with the exception of Thief builds, which definitely are now all forced into lower risk/reward. There's always been a variety of ranges in skill caps between builds. Spirit Ranger meta, Turret Engineer meta, bunker Chrono meta, tank druid/scrapper side node meta, throughout the eras there has been medium to low skill cap builds in the spotlight from time to time. In equal skill, builds define every single fight? Yes, of course, it's not pong here, if equal skill, of course the builds will factor in - a completely overlooked skill here is knowing your matchups and for example, not take a fight against equally skilled players with a build that has lethal on you.

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Bunkering and node domination in general is just the most unsatisfying way to win or lose.

It stinks to the high heavens of spoilt cheese.

Thief rotations are developed to counter this Bunkering strategy, which creates another form of dissatisfaction where Thieves basically run laps all match.

Any other build far and few between?Decent if pulled off and played expertly.And if not?A huge burden.

Gone are the days where build variety is one of the charms of this game.

I used to enjoy theory crafting quirky builds to play with, but these days I find myself NEEDING to ensure my build follows a checkbox list (Enough Health, couple of cleanse, 2 Stunbreaks, enough boon generation etc.) and I HATE IT.

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