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HoT = Dark Souls ? Casual Gamer perspective.

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  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @Master Ketsu.4569 said:
    I remember back in the 90's when devs just told people to gitgud.

    Those were better days.

    Pandering to casuals just ruins the game for everyone else. Open world PvE is already mind numbingly easy enough as it is.

    and if it isnt, then there wont be millions of casuals to pay for THE GAME. wildstar showed us where THAT ends.
    they simply never had the money to optimize the game, game, so the hardcore content never got to work right.
    in the end, the hardcores left too, since the hardcore content really NEEDS to work perfectly
    a good mmo is a like a pyramid...for every one at the top, there are 100s at the bottom
    pretty much like a REAL society

    A good game is one where you cant lose or have to learn

    when i came to this game, i couldnt dodge AT ALL. i suck at platforming , and i really HATE it.
    but i still completed vezirs tower. no portal. took my almost a day of cursing, but i DID it.

  • Laila Lightness.8742Laila Lightness.8742 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 11, 2020

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @Master Ketsu.4569 said:
    I remember back in the 90's when devs just told people to gitgud.

    Those were better days.

    Pandering to casuals just ruins the game for everyone else. Open world PvE is already mind numbingly easy enough as it is.

    and if it isnt, then there wont be millions of casuals to pay for THE GAME. wildstar showed us where THAT ends.
    they simply never had the money to optimize the game, game, so the hardcore content never got to work right.
    in the end, the hardcores left too, since the hardcore content really NEEDS to work perfectly
    a good mmo is a like a pyramid...for every one at the top, there are 100s at the bottom
    pretty much like a REAL society

    A good game is one where you cant lose or have to learn

    when i came to this game, i couldnt dodge AT ALL. i suck at platforming , and i really HATE it.
    but i still completed vezirs tower. no portal. took my almost a day of cursing, but i DID it.

    The it has to be nerfed dont it . Yes wanna know how i felt during first run of ps( why do we need an army as i can kill armies on my own is zhaitan even a threat) you also forget this is a mmo its meant to be playing with others on that front core failed for you could solo almost everything. So group content was bad

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:
    Also most casual players dont want hardcore content tp exist or atleast not have rewards they cant get

    Please cite your source for "most casual players". I'm not convinced that this is true. Sounds a lot like hyperbole to me.

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    and if it isnt, then there wont be millions of casuals to pay for THE GAME

    You said earlier that casuals don't pay for this game so this is a weird statement.

  • Master Ketsu.4569Master Ketsu.4569 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 11, 2020

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:
    Also most casual players dont want hardcore content tp exist or atleast not have rewards they cant get

    Please cite your source for "most casual players". I'm not convinced that this is true. Sounds a lot like hyperbole to me.

    He's confusing casuals with bad players.

    Casuals are aware of what they are doing and know that playing casually shouldn't really need to achieve the same thing as high level raids or top leaderboard PvP content. Casuals are playing the game at their own pace for fun.

    Bad players on the other hand, lack this self awareness and thus demand that all content be brought down to their level. "waaah prestiguous PvP titles shouldn't exist because they make me feel insecure, waaaaaaah I shouldn't have to learn how to play my class to get into top tier raids, waaaaaaah I got oneshot in WvW so unfair, waaaaaah!"

    Learning to tell the difference quickly shows you which players to ignore.

  • Astyrah.4015Astyrah.4015 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 11, 2020

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @kraai.7265 said:

    @AdamWarlord.6782 said:
    Edit: This post is to voice a percentage of player base's opinion(may it be a minority, majority, or even just me) on HoT including mine. I have nothing less than love for the game Devs and the community. I have been playing for 2-3 years atleast, and have played some GW1 back in the day. Im not just throwing shade on the HoT content. ** I am trying to voice my opinion and my experience in a straightforward manner. **

    Alright, so i just finished up my online classes and studies for my upcoming third year exams and I sit to do my daily completion of a legendary, going on for weeks now. As you can understand, i don't have more than maybe 2-3 hours to play at best. Completion of Eternity and other core legendary weapons took time, but atleast it was doable without frustration and having "fun". When it comes to HoT, I don't know what i am even doing. I am trying to go around the map 90% of the time trying not to die because the floor minion mobs are so OVERPOWERED. I have been playing the game for 2 years, and i have avoided HoT every chance i got because of the same exact reasons i am about to mention.

    1. Its very hard to see, hate the map design and how dark it is in 70% of the places.
    2. Lags way too much on my mid end laptop.
    3. Floor mobs are wayy too overpowered and feel like boss mobs.
    4. Hence because of the same reason above, VERY hard to level up the masteries.
    5. Why do masteries you ask? Because there are wayy too many hero points and other aspects of the completion of HoT, which require doing them. Which sucks.
    6. I can't Solo 50% of the hero points, being a max reaper.
    7. WAIT, I NEED TO DO A ADRENALINE MASTERY TO DO A HERO POINT WHICH CONSUMES MY LIFE WHEN I EAT BACON? WHEN MY LIFE POOL IS 22k??
    8. I actually start to rage(sorry for caps above) playing guild wars 2, which is 90% of the time fun, except when i play HoT.
    9. And due to the above reasons i mentioned above, I actually can feel better playing DARK SOULS than HoT.

    I also get why they would be reluctant to nerf the mobs more and bring some player driven balance , but atleast 50% if not more gamers are casual on gw2 and want to play not to rage but to have a good time, i don't mind taking months to get my legendary, BUT ATLEAST let the process be fun. I don't want to get grabbed by a rip off stegosaurus while i'm on my raptor and get 2 shot with 22k health. Any balance, related to player level, or player-online time based balance on mobs, a bit more lighting in HoT maps, a bit more of anything. I get HoT is a very old expansion and that Cantha is coming. But atleast respect your players who are trying their hardest to stick to the game and trying to voice their opinions for a change. And of-course please try providing it. Alright! Back to returning to a checkpoint which takes me halfway across the map from the hero point i just died on, and try to re attempt it with broken armor, because there is no repair station nearby, and i don't have a million repair canisters because i'm a casual.

    Edit: I realized they have nerfed the difficulty once, i can't imagine what the mobs were like.
    Edit: I get where most of you all are coming from, But as i said, its my opinion and many other casual gamers opinion on the content. Leading to a player driven balance, not a balance for everyone.

    What do you all challenge haters pretend of this game? To be a walk in the park? Do you want anet to turn mobs into freaking paintings? Havn't you had enough with core tyria beeing so freaking easy? do you want mobs to become static with no attack or interaction whatsoever? This is the mentality that drove anet to the mess they are in now, with no clear direction and all sort of players leaving, first they lost almost all pvpers, now they are loosing hardcore pvers, soon they will only have open world bots running around playing for a few months and quitting out of boredom, and all of the ones playing fashion wars standing still in the bank...

    its pretty easy: we liked core, and thats what we want MORE of...not something ENTIRELY DIFFERENT
    quitting the game AFTER you played it, out of BOREDOM, is still better than quitting BEFORE the end
    if you made a meal for all you friends, and they all put down the fork after one bite, it prolly wasnt that great
    but if they clear the table in record time, and ask for MORE, then it has the quality, that people wil PAY for

    Iknow ppl who thought core was to hard should we nerf it down

    can just turn gw2 into an interactive visual novel, that way everyone can play -- no one loses /sarcasm

  • @battledrone.8315 said:

    @Master Ketsu.4569 said:
    I remember back in the 90's when devs just told people to gitgud.

    Those were better days.

    Pandering to casuals just ruins the game for everyone else. Open world PvE is already mind numbingly easy enough as it is.

    and if it isnt, then there wont be millions of casuals to pay for THE GAME. wildstar showed us where THAT ends.
    they simply never had the money to optimize the game, game, so the hardcore content never got to work right.
    in the end, the hardcores left too, since the hardcore content really NEEDS to work perfectly
    a good mmo is a like a pyramid...for every one at the top, there are 100s at the bottom
    pretty much like a REAL society

    Maybe. But there are also people living in a shed outside the pyramid that don't spend any money and proclaim themselves part of this illustrious group of foundational players. I hope the devs don't listen to those players as they are not indicative of anything.

  • @battledrone.8315 said:

    @kraai.7265 said:

    @AdamWarlord.6782 said:
    Edit: This post is to voice a percentage of player base's opinion(may it be a minority, majority, or even just me) on HoT including mine. I have nothing less than love for the game Devs and the community. I have been playing for 2-3 years atleast, and have played some GW1 back in the day. Im not just throwing shade on the HoT content. ** I am trying to voice my opinion and my experience in a straightforward manner. **

    Alright, so i just finished up my online classes and studies for my upcoming third year exams and I sit to do my daily completion of a legendary, going on for weeks now. As you can understand, i don't have more than maybe 2-3 hours to play at best. Completion of Eternity and other core legendary weapons took time, but atleast it was doable without frustration and having "fun". When it comes to HoT, I don't know what i am even doing. I am trying to go around the map 90% of the time trying not to die because the floor minion mobs are so OVERPOWERED. I have been playing the game for 2 years, and i have avoided HoT every chance i got because of the same exact reasons i am about to mention.

    1. Its very hard to see, hate the map design and how dark it is in 70% of the places.
    2. Lags way too much on my mid end laptop.
    3. Floor mobs are wayy too overpowered and feel like boss mobs.
    4. Hence because of the same reason above, VERY hard to level up the masteries.
    5. Why do masteries you ask? Because there are wayy too many hero points and other aspects of the completion of HoT, which require doing them. Which sucks.
    6. I can't Solo 50% of the hero points, being a max reaper.
    7. WAIT, I NEED TO DO A ADRENALINE MASTERY TO DO A HERO POINT WHICH CONSUMES MY LIFE WHEN I EAT BACON? WHEN MY LIFE POOL IS 22k??
    8. I actually start to rage(sorry for caps above) playing guild wars 2, which is 90% of the time fun, except when i play HoT.
    9. And due to the above reasons i mentioned above, I actually can feel better playing DARK SOULS than HoT.

    I also get why they would be reluctant to nerf the mobs more and bring some player driven balance , but atleast 50% if not more gamers are casual on gw2 and want to play not to rage but to have a good time, i don't mind taking months to get my legendary, BUT ATLEAST let the process be fun. I don't want to get grabbed by a rip off stegosaurus while i'm on my raptor and get 2 shot with 22k health. Any balance, related to player level, or player-online time based balance on mobs, a bit more lighting in HoT maps, a bit more of anything. I get HoT is a very old expansion and that Cantha is coming. But atleast respect your players who are trying their hardest to stick to the game and trying to voice their opinions for a change. And of-course please try providing it. Alright! Back to returning to a checkpoint which takes me halfway across the map from the hero point i just died on, and try to re attempt it with broken armor, because there is no repair station nearby, and i don't have a million repair canisters because i'm a casual.

    Edit: I realized they have nerfed the difficulty once, i can't imagine what the mobs were like.
    Edit: I get where most of you all are coming from, But as i said, its my opinion and many other casual gamers opinion on the content. Leading to a player driven balance, not a balance for everyone.

    What do you all challenge haters pretend of this game? To be a walk in the park? Do you want anet to turn mobs into freaking paintings? Havn't you had enough with core tyria beeing so freaking easy? do you want mobs to become static with no attack or interaction whatsoever? This is the mentality that drove anet to the mess they are in now, with no clear direction and all sort of players leaving, first they lost almost all pvpers, now they are loosing hardcore pvers, soon they will only have open world bots running around playing for a few months and quitting out of boredom, and all of the ones playing fashion wars standing still in the bank...

    its pretty easy: we liked core, and thats what we want MORE of...not something ENTIRELY DIFFERENT
    quitting the game AFTER you played it, out of BOREDOM, is still better than quitting BEFORE the end
    if you made a meal for all you friends, and they all put down the fork after one bite, it prolly wasnt that great
    but if they clear the table in record time, and ask for MORE, then it has the quality, that people wil PAY for

    Average players love HoT and find core laughably easy. We want more HoT.

  • 10 pages of this? Seriously?
    There are a small (vocal) group of people who want the game to be hard. Grrrr!!
    There are a small (vocal) group of people who want the game to be fun and easy. Waaaaah!

    Then there is the rest - how are quite happy with both fun and hard - but the problem right now in the game that the jump from fun to hard - ie end of core Tyria into Heart of Thorns is a big one. This is important because that is how NEW PLAYERS are going to see the game - because that's what you get when you buy the expansions now.
    No one cares how it used to be - it doesn't matter. New player experience is going to suddenly matter a lot with GW2 coming on Steam soon.

    GW2 doesn't have a gear grind - but it does demand you get better at playing.
    Going from the end of the core story to HoT is a big jump - in a number of ways - and a lot of them can be frustrating.
    For a better player experience, GW2 needs to better prepare people for HoT - because right now it doesn't at all. You can quite easily get all the way through the core story without really understanding breakbars and how to dodge - I certainly did when I started again back in June.
    Toss in a horribly confusing map (with the lack of height indication on markers currently making it even worse) and the wave of angry rage-quit posts a few months after the Steam release is going to be epic. Is that really what we want for the game?

    You shouldn't have to spend hours watching youtube videos and reading wikis in order to play a game. If you do, then that's a failure on the part of the designers.
    That's what need to be addressed. There is no need (and most people aren't calling for) nerfs or to make things even more punishing.

    Enough with the hyperbolic pontificating.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Rokeb.3815 said:
    Then there is the rest - how are quite happy with both fun and hard - but the problem right now in the game that the jump from fun to hard - ie end of core Tyria into Heart of Thorns is a big one. This is important because that is how NEW PLAYERS are going to see the game - because that's what you get when you buy the expansions now.

    There is always the solution to make Season 2 entirely free for anyone that buys the expansion. That way the "Game is too difficult" argument will be probably redirected to "S2" instead of HOT but at least that gap is more manageable. The problem is, as with more situations like this, the forum vocal posters that want new players to spend extra money (or even gold), not to enjoy the game more, but to unlock content that exists between core and what they bought. "Look to enjoy what you bought, you must first pay some extra money, or grind for gold" is what Anet is telling new players.

    You shouldn't have to spend hours watching youtube videos and reading wikis in order to play a game. If you do, then that's a failure on the part of the designers.

    Of course, the game needs better tutorials. But once again our fellow vocal posters will tell you that the game is by design like so you feel the "exploration" and "discovery". Meaning the exploration/discovery of youtube channels and wiki pages that have the information you need of course.

  • Dante.1508Dante.1508 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 12, 2020

    I just attempted night of Fire in pof on an ele.. haha, yeah no.. 10+ (Some were insta kills) deaths become rinse repeat really not fun after you die so many times a customer gets frustrated angry and wants the mission just to end so they can leave.. and in my case stop using said ele..
    I even spent the whole day copying metabattle builds, building armor and weapons needed in hope that my ele would be useful..
    Nope its done.
    Ele can die in a fire as far as i'm concerned.

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @kraai.7265 said:

    @AdamWarlord.6782 said:
    Edit: This post is to voice a percentage of player base's opinion(may it be a minority, majority, or even just me) on HoT including mine. I have nothing less than love for the game Devs and the community. I have been playing for 2-3 years atleast, and have played some GW1 back in the day. Im not just throwing shade on the HoT content. ** I am trying to voice my opinion and my experience in a straightforward manner. **

    Alright, so i just finished up my online classes and studies for my upcoming third year exams and I sit to do my daily completion of a legendary, going on for weeks now. As you can understand, i don't have more than maybe 2-3 hours to play at best. Completion of Eternity and other core legendary weapons took time, but atleast it was doable without frustration and having "fun". When it comes to HoT, I don't know what i am even doing. I am trying to go around the map 90% of the time trying not to die because the floor minion mobs are so OVERPOWERED. I have been playing the game for 2 years, and i have avoided HoT every chance i got because of the same exact reasons i am about to mention.

    1. Its very hard to see, hate the map design and how dark it is in 70% of the places.
    2. Lags way too much on my mid end laptop.
    3. Floor mobs are wayy too overpowered and feel like boss mobs.
    4. Hence because of the same reason above, VERY hard to level up the masteries.
    5. Why do masteries you ask? Because there are wayy too many hero points and other aspects of the completion of HoT, which require doing them. Which sucks.
    6. I can't Solo 50% of the hero points, being a max reaper.
    7. WAIT, I NEED TO DO A ADRENALINE MASTERY TO DO A HERO POINT WHICH CONSUMES MY LIFE WHEN I EAT BACON? WHEN MY LIFE POOL IS 22k??
    8. I actually start to rage(sorry for caps above) playing guild wars 2, which is 90% of the time fun, except when i play HoT.
    9. And due to the above reasons i mentioned above, I actually can feel better playing DARK SOULS than HoT.

    I also get why they would be reluctant to nerf the mobs more and bring some player driven balance , but atleast 50% if not more gamers are casual on gw2 and want to play not to rage but to have a good time, i don't mind taking months to get my legendary, BUT ATLEAST let the process be fun. I don't want to get grabbed by a rip off stegosaurus while i'm on my raptor and get 2 shot with 22k health. Any balance, related to player level, or player-online time based balance on mobs, a bit more lighting in HoT maps, a bit more of anything. I get HoT is a very old expansion and that Cantha is coming. But atleast respect your players who are trying their hardest to stick to the game and trying to voice their opinions for a change. And of-course please try providing it. Alright! Back to returning to a checkpoint which takes me halfway across the map from the hero point i just died on, and try to re attempt it with broken armor, because there is no repair station nearby, and i don't have a million repair canisters because i'm a casual.

    Edit: I realized they have nerfed the difficulty once, i can't imagine what the mobs were like.
    Edit: I get where most of you all are coming from, But as i said, its my opinion and many other casual gamers opinion on the content. Leading to a player driven balance, not a balance for everyone.

    What do you all challenge haters pretend of this game? To be a walk in the park? Do you want anet to turn mobs into freaking paintings? Havn't you had enough with core tyria beeing so freaking easy? do you want mobs to become static with no attack or interaction whatsoever? This is the mentality that drove anet to the mess they are in now, with no clear direction and all sort of players leaving, first they lost almost all pvpers, now they are loosing hardcore pvers, soon they will only have open world bots running around playing for a few months and quitting out of boredom, and all of the ones playing fashion wars standing still in the bank...

    its pretty easy: we liked core, and thats what we want MORE of...not something ENTIRELY DIFFERENT
    quitting the game AFTER you played it, out of BOREDOM, is still better than quitting BEFORE the end
    if you made a meal for all you friends, and they all put down the fork after one bite, it prolly wasnt that great
    but if they clear the table in record time, and ask for MORE, then it has the quality, that people wil PAY for

    Average players love HoT and find core laughably easy. We want more HoT.

    No they really don't, i talk to guildies daily and frustration is big in hot and lesser so pof.. Its a large aspect of why so many leave or take breaks.. Enjoyable content you can go through is fun, content that continually bashes you until you quit isn't (thats actually called bully mechanics).

    Leave that to pvp or raids.

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    and if it isnt, then there wont be millions of casuals to pay for THE GAME

    You said earlier that casuals don't pay for this game so this is a weird statement.

    they HAD millions, but not anymore. out of 5 mio sold boxes, 3½-4 mio went to casuals. . thats over 150 MIO $ pretty much from start.
    those 150 mio is the major reason for the easiness of core. they wanted those money, but they didnt want to make more content for the casuals.
    that is why we are here now

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @Master Ketsu.4569 said:
    I remember back in the 90's when devs just told people to gitgud.

    Those were better days.

    Pandering to casuals just ruins the game for everyone else. Open world PvE is already mind numbingly easy enough as it is.

    and if it isnt, then there wont be millions of casuals to pay for THE GAME. wildstar showed us where THAT ends.
    they simply never had the money to optimize the game, game, so the hardcore content never got to work right.
    in the end, the hardcores left too, since the hardcore content really NEEDS to work perfectly
    a good mmo is a like a pyramid...for every one at the top, there are 100s at the bottom
    pretty much like a REAL society

    Maybe. But there are also people living in a shed outside the pyramid that don't spend any money and proclaim themselves part of this illustrious group of foundational players. I hope the devs don't listen to those players as they are not indicative of anything.

    yep, just ignore the customers, that should work out just fine. you prolly dont have to fire anyone, or change plans later..
    and since this is the only mmo on the market, people just have to suck it up and GIT GUD

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @Master Ketsu.4569 said:
    I remember back in the 90's when devs just told people to gitgud.

    Those were better days.

    Pandering to casuals just ruins the game for everyone else. Open world PvE is already mind numbingly easy enough as it is.

    and if it isnt, then there wont be millions of casuals to pay for THE GAME. wildstar showed us where THAT ends.
    they simply never had the money to optimize the game, game, so the hardcore content never got to work right.
    in the end, the hardcores left too, since the hardcore content really NEEDS to work perfectly
    a good mmo is a like a pyramid...for every one at the top, there are 100s at the bottom
    pretty much like a REAL society

    A good game is one where you cant lose or have to learn

    when i came to this game, i couldnt dodge AT ALL. i suck at platforming , and i really HATE it.
    but i still completed vezirs tower. no portal. took my almost a day of cursing, but i DID it.

    The it has to be nerfed dont it . Yes wanna know how i felt during first run of ps( why do we need an army as i can kill armies on my own is zhaitan even a threat) you also forget this is a mmo its meant to be playing with others on that front core failed for you could solo almost everything. So group content was bad

    yes, i think they should allow mounts, or at least gliders in JPs. you have to play a significant part of the SECOND expansion for them to be useful.
    besides that, it is pretty much breaking the rule of RPGs to disable skills, that the player has WORKED to gain
    SPECIALLY when it is needed the most. it is basically a big F U to the player.

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    and if it isnt, then there wont be millions of casuals to pay for THE GAME

    You said earlier that casuals don't pay for this game so this is a weird statement.

    they HAD millions, but not anymore. out of 5 mio sold boxes, 3½-4 mio went to casuals. . thats over 150 MIO $ pretty much from start.
    those 150 mio is the major reason for the easiness of core. they wanted those money, but they didnt want to make more content for the casuals.
    that is why we are here now

    Source? You posted numerous times your claims about sales but I've never seen anything that verifies them. There is a confusion and debate on this thread alone on what the word "casual" even mean, I'm sure the data you have will not only clearly state your numbers, but also provide an accurate definition of the word "casual" that is accepted by everyone.

    go to any mmo and find a super easy mission with a good reward. its gonna cramped with players there.
    now go to the endgame zones with all the HARDCORE content, and see if you can find even a handful of players.
    fast and easy sells, slow and hard not so much.

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 12, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    and if it isnt, then there wont be millions of casuals to pay for THE GAME

    You said earlier that casuals don't pay for this game so this is a weird statement.

    they HAD millions, but not anymore. out of 5 mio sold boxes, 3½-4 mio went to casuals. . thats over 150 MIO $ pretty much from start.
    those 150 mio is the major reason for the easiness of core. they wanted those money, but they didnt want to make more content for the casuals.
    that is why we are here now

    Source? You posted numerous times your claims about sales but I've never seen anything that verifies them. There is a confusion and debate on this thread alone on what the word "casual" even mean, I'm sure the data you have will not only clearly state your numbers, but also provide an accurate definition of the word "casual" that is accepted by everyone.

    go to any mmo and find a super easy mission with a good reward. its gonna cramped with players there.
    now go to the endgame zones with all the HARDCORE content, and see if you can find even a handful of players.
    fast and easy sells, slow and hard not so much.

    That's not really proof of anything. Try again with some actual data

    yep, REAL LIFE doesnt prove anything, better wait for a SECRET PAPER from the BUSINESS itself....lol
    PS note that they are still sporting the 12 mio from F2P launch too. this isnt right...

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    and if it isnt, then there wont be millions of casuals to pay for THE GAME

    You said earlier that casuals don't pay for this game so this is a weird statement.

    they HAD millions, but not anymore. out of 5 mio sold boxes, 3½-4 mio went to casuals. . thats over 150 MIO $ pretty much from start.
    those 150 mio is the major reason for the easiness of core. they wanted those money, but they didnt want to make more content for the casuals.
    that is why we are here now

    Source? You posted numerous times your claims about sales but I've never seen anything that verifies them. There is a confusion and debate on this thread alone on what the word "casual" even mean, I'm sure the data you have will not only clearly state your numbers, but also provide an accurate definition of the word "casual" that is accepted by everyone.

    go to any mmo and find a super easy mission with a good reward. its gonna cramped with players there.
    now go to the endgame zones with all the HARDCORE content, and see if you can find even a handful of players.
    fast and easy sells, slow and hard not so much.

    That's not really proof of anything. Try again with some actual data

    yep, REAL LIFE doesnt prove anything, better wait for a SECRET PAPER from the BUSINESS itself....lol

    Again, what you said doesn't prove anything. Also, if you go by your logic of "endgame" zones you can easily see in GW2 that the "endgame" zones, expansions and living world have way more players playing there than the low level core zones. Even when the game was new, Orr was populated very well, while the rest of the game wasn't as much, so your logic really fails. But that doesn't really prove anything about the content the players "like", it only proves that players go where the rewards are, as you said "super easy mission with a good reward", remove the reward (to see how many enjoy the content) and you will see what happens.

    When Auric Basin Multiloot was nerfed, we went from 24 map instances at the same time, to barely 1. When Istan was nerfed, it became more of a wasteland. So it's not that players enjoy playing that content more than other content, but that they go to the easy rewards, that doesn't prove that the game sold millions to "Casuals", only that the majority of the game's population likes pressing 1 and F on their keyboard and get massive rewards while watching netflix on their second monitor. That's not healthy for the game and Anet knows that which is why they "nerf" these exceptionally good reward/effort areas. (To add new ones)

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    and if it isnt, then there wont be millions of casuals to pay for THE GAME

    You said earlier that casuals don't pay for this game so this is a weird statement.

    they HAD millions, but not anymore. out of 5 mio sold boxes, 3½-4 mio went to casuals. . thats over 150 MIO $ pretty much from start.
    those 150 mio is the major reason for the easiness of core. they wanted those money, but they didnt want to make more content for the casuals.
    that is why we are here now

    Source? You posted numerous times your claims about sales but I've never seen anything that verifies them. There is a confusion and debate on this thread alone on what the word "casual" even mean, I'm sure the data you have will not only clearly state your numbers, but also provide an accurate definition of the word "casual" that is accepted by everyone.

    go to any mmo and find a super easy mission with a good reward. its gonna cramped with players there.
    now go to the endgame zones with all the HARDCORE content, and see if you can find even a handful of players.
    fast and easy sells, slow and hard not so much.

    That's not really proof of anything. Try again with some actual data

    yep, REAL LIFE doesnt prove anything, better wait for a SECRET PAPER from the BUSINESS itself....lol

    Again, what you said doesn't prove anything. Also, if you go by your logic of "endgame" zones you can easily see in GW2 that the "endgame" zones, expansions and living world have way more players playing there than the low level core zones. Even when the game was new, Orr was populated very well, while the rest of the game wasn't as much, so your logic really fails. But that doesn't really prove anything about the content the players "like", it only proves that players go where the rewards are, as you said "super easy mission with a good reward", remove the reward (to see how many enjoy the content) and you will see what happens.

    When Auric Basin Multiloot was nerfed, we went from 24 map instances at the same time, to barely 1. When Istan was nerfed, it became more of a wasteland. So it's not that players enjoy playing that content more than other content, but that they go to the easy rewards, that doesn't prove that the game sold millions to "Casuals", only that the majority of the game's population likes pressing 1 and F on their keyboard and get massive rewards while watching netflix on their second monitor. That's not healthy for the game and Anet knows that which is why they "nerf" these exceptionally good reward/effort areas. (To add new ones)

    no big surprise here, the hardcore content locusts can devour a full mmo in a few days, so of course orr will be cramped in the first days.
    and after a few days they will flood the forums with demands, and then most of them will dump it again.
    the devs will prolly try to react on those demands, since this is the only feedback they have.
    and then the devs can try pleasing the audience, that has(mostly) already left them
    i have seen it happen too many times now

  • ASP.8093ASP.8093 Member ✭✭✭

    I helped someone do the Mordremoth story mission about a month ago. He tried and failed solo once or twice, asked for help in guild chat, so I jumped in to coach him through it a bit and provided a bunch of extra damage. With my help, he was CCing Garm, doing the Canach shield thing, and managing Mordremoth's spawns pretty well. We were a team, we were kicking butt, he (accurately!) felt like he was mastering content that had previously given him a lot of trouble, and I felt like I was putting my experience to good use.

    From a casual-gaming perspective, it was a really positive experience.

  • Veridiano.8659Veridiano.8659 Member ✭✭
    edited September 12, 2020

    HoT is hard. I mean, it is. It's not a walk in the park. However I just did it everything on my own, totally solo with my engineer but I also learn to play with the game mechanics aswell. I learned about interrupting some enemy attacks, counter the rest, avoid areas, etc. I mean, I've played Dark Souls I and III, and I've was recently playing Remnant: From the Ashes (very souls like with guns, basically) in max difficulty before jumping over GW2. And the HoT part take me by surprise, but after some wipes, some yelling and a new keyboard and screen I finally became a holoartisan and learned how to play, and I've taken down solo Mordremoth itself. Learned the masteries, etc.
    Being hard may shock, but it's the way to learn the mechanics of the game and prepare you for the endgame, at least a bit. It makes you ask other people, group with them and learn, watch tutorials and guides, search for builds and learn and master your own set of skills, know what is good for where and against who.
    The problem with Hot is, sometimes is too annoying. And annoyance it's not always the same as hard. That's a problem too obvious on souls games, many people use "hard" when it's not hard per se, it's just annoying. Dark Souls III Guardian of the Abyss, for instance, wasn't hard, rather than annoying. Too much health, too many hits in unpredictable combos, and 2 fases that resets every time you die. That's annoting because you just have to repeat the simple mechanics of "evade-attack-evade" to many times and without mistake. It's plays with your pacience rather than with your skill. It becomes tiresome real quick. With Hot Is more or less the same. Too may layers, too many roots that makes you fall, too many "instakill" enemies that makes you go down your mount (like those mini killer dinos, what the hell they eat? They are harder than Mordremoth) etc, and two maps without waypoints. One because simply there's no waypoints at all and the other because they are always in conflict. That makes the expansion tiresome to play. And that's not good at all, for anyone. So hard is good, but annoying is not.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    no big surprise here, the hardcore content locusts can devour a full mmo in a few days, so of course orr will be cramped in the first days.
    and after a few days they will flood the forums with demands, and then most of them will dump it again.
    the devs will prolly try to react on those demands, since this is the only feedback they have.
    and then the devs can try pleasing the audience, that has(mostly) already left them
    i have seen it happen too many times now

    You mean the "Casuals" go only where the rewards are and ignore the rest of the game. According to your "observations" of where the population is of course. You said that because the easy content with the good rewards attracts lots of players, it means "casuals" are playing this game. Now you are saying that only the content locusts are playing there? But that's where, you said, the majority plays. You are contradicting yourself constantly, moving the goal posts, talking about irrelevant subjects instead of responding to the arguments presented. Are your arguments so weak that you feel the need to change the subject all the time?

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 12, 2020

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    PS note that they are still sporting the 12 mio from F2P launch too. this isnt right...

    Your information is incorrect. The game announced 7 million accounts when it went F2P and 11 million accounts in 2017, 2 years -after- the F2P announcement.

    Let's take a look at sales:
    https://www.polygon.com/2013/1/15/3878496/guild-wars-2-has-sold-three-million-copies-since-launch
    Guild Wars 2 sold 3 million copies in 2012, that's half of Q3 and the entire Q4 of 2012, obviously hype played an important role, that's 4 months for 3 million copies

    https://www.ign.com/articles/2015/08/21/guild-wars-2-sales-figures-revealed
    Guild Wars 2 sold 5 million copies up to August 2015. This means from January 2013 up to August 2015 the game sold 2 million copies. 31 months (!!) to sell 2 million copies

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/the-journey-is-just-beginning/
    Guild Wars 2 reached 7 million accounts in October 2015
    This means 2 million extra accounts were created in just 2 months when the game went free to play! In just 2 months game got as many accounts as it did in the previous 31 months. Do note that this was announced the same day Heart of Thorns launched, so it doesn't include HOT sales (maybe pre-orders?)

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/the-path-to-the-desert-in-numbers/
    Guild Wars 2 reached 11 million accounts in September 2017
    This means the game got 4 million new accounts in 23 months (almost 2 years), still a much better performance than during Season 1, but this is accounts, not sales.

  • @battledrone.8315 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @Master Ketsu.4569 said:
    I remember back in the 90's when devs just told people to gitgud.

    Those were better days.

    Pandering to casuals just ruins the game for everyone else. Open world PvE is already mind numbingly easy enough as it is.

    and if it isnt, then there wont be millions of casuals to pay for THE GAME. wildstar showed us where THAT ends.
    they simply never had the money to optimize the game, game, so the hardcore content never got to work right.
    in the end, the hardcores left too, since the hardcore content really NEEDS to work perfectly
    a good mmo is a like a pyramid...for every one at the top, there are 100s at the bottom
    pretty much like a REAL society

    Maybe. But there are also people living in a shed outside the pyramid that don't spend any money and proclaim themselves part of this illustrious group of foundational players. I hope the devs don't listen to those players as they are not indicative of anything.

    yep, just ignore the customers, that should work out just fine. you prolly dont have to fire anyone, or change plans later..
    and since this is the only mmo on the market, people just have to suck it up and GIT GUD

    Aren't you the one that said these people don't spend money and don't play very much? In fact, as far as I can tell, there are only a few of them and they spend all their time throwing salt on the forums. So, yes, please ignore them!

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I find it telling that the people professing to speak for the casual viewpoint in this thread (specifically @battledrone.8315 and @Dante.1508 ) speak as "customers" and not "players".

    "We recognize that some players are not able to complete all content." Gaile Gray 01.10.19

  • Tsakhi.8124Tsakhi.8124 Member ✭✭✭

    @Astyrah.4015 said:

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @kraai.7265 said:

    @AdamWarlord.6782 said:
    Edit: This post is to voice a percentage of player base's opinion(may it be a minority, majority, or even just me) on HoT including mine. I have nothing less than love for the game Devs and the community. I have been playing for 2-3 years atleast, and have played some GW1 back in the day. Im not just throwing shade on the HoT content. ** I am trying to voice my opinion and my experience in a straightforward manner. **

    Alright, so i just finished up my online classes and studies for my upcoming third year exams and I sit to do my daily completion of a legendary, going on for weeks now. As you can understand, i don't have more than maybe 2-3 hours to play at best. Completion of Eternity and other core legendary weapons took time, but atleast it was doable without frustration and having "fun". When it comes to HoT, I don't know what i am even doing. I am trying to go around the map 90% of the time trying not to die because the floor minion mobs are so OVERPOWERED. I have been playing the game for 2 years, and i have avoided HoT every chance i got because of the same exact reasons i am about to mention.

    1. Its very hard to see, hate the map design and how dark it is in 70% of the places.
    2. Lags way too much on my mid end laptop.
    3. Floor mobs are wayy too overpowered and feel like boss mobs.
    4. Hence because of the same reason above, VERY hard to level up the masteries.
    5. Why do masteries you ask? Because there are wayy too many hero points and other aspects of the completion of HoT, which require doing them. Which sucks.
    6. I can't Solo 50% of the hero points, being a max reaper.
    7. WAIT, I NEED TO DO A ADRENALINE MASTERY TO DO A HERO POINT WHICH CONSUMES MY LIFE WHEN I EAT BACON? WHEN MY LIFE POOL IS 22k??
    8. I actually start to rage(sorry for caps above) playing guild wars 2, which is 90% of the time fun, except when i play HoT.
    9. And due to the above reasons i mentioned above, I actually can feel better playing DARK SOULS than HoT.

    I also get why they would be reluctant to nerf the mobs more and bring some player driven balance , but atleast 50% if not more gamers are casual on gw2 and want to play not to rage but to have a good time, i don't mind taking months to get my legendary, BUT ATLEAST let the process be fun. I don't want to get grabbed by a rip off stegosaurus while i'm on my raptor and get 2 shot with 22k health. Any balance, related to player level, or player-online time based balance on mobs, a bit more lighting in HoT maps, a bit more of anything. I get HoT is a very old expansion and that Cantha is coming. But atleast respect your players who are trying their hardest to stick to the game and trying to voice their opinions for a change. And of-course please try providing it. Alright! Back to returning to a checkpoint which takes me halfway across the map from the hero point i just died on, and try to re attempt it with broken armor, because there is no repair station nearby, and i don't have a million repair canisters because i'm a casual.

    Edit: I realized they have nerfed the difficulty once, i can't imagine what the mobs were like.
    Edit: I get where most of you all are coming from, But as i said, its my opinion and many other casual gamers opinion on the content. Leading to a player driven balance, not a balance for everyone.

    What do you all challenge haters pretend of this game? To be a walk in the park? Do you want anet to turn mobs into freaking paintings? Havn't you had enough with core tyria beeing so freaking easy? do you want mobs to become static with no attack or interaction whatsoever? This is the mentality that drove anet to the mess they are in now, with no clear direction and all sort of players leaving, first they lost almost all pvpers, now they are loosing hardcore pvers, soon they will only have open world bots running around playing for a few months and quitting out of boredom, and all of the ones playing fashion wars standing still in the bank...

    its pretty easy: we liked core, and thats what we want MORE of...not something ENTIRELY DIFFERENT
    quitting the game AFTER you played it, out of BOREDOM, is still better than quitting BEFORE the end
    if you made a meal for all you friends, and they all put down the fork after one bite, it prolly wasnt that great
    but if they clear the table in record time, and ask for MORE, then it has the quality, that people wil PAY for

    Iknow ppl who thought core was to hard should we nerf it down

    can just turn gw2 into an interactive visual novel, that way everyone can play -- no one loses /sarcasm

    Unless it's Doki Doki Literature Club, then everyone kinda doesn't win. XD Back on topic I go! HoT wasn't too bad for me, but then again I didn't run it solo most of the time, which I feel is the issue at hand: it is difficult to solo if you're having trouble with crowd control or other kinds of mechanics.

    "How so big the sea hills how so deep the blue beneath.
    Hail from the main and comest thou home."

    Sigrdrífumál
    Նոտ ենուղ պատիենծե
    Persona 4 MC: boldly sits on the girl's side and flirts with the guys
    Will work for pets and hugs!
    Sheep r gud 4 eets

  • @battledrone.8315 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    and if it isnt, then there wont be millions of casuals to pay for THE GAME

    You said earlier that casuals don't pay for this game so this is a weird statement.

    they HAD millions, but not anymore. out of 5 mio sold boxes, 3½-4 mio went to casuals. . thats over 150 MIO $ pretty much from start.
    those 150 mio is the major reason for the easiness of core. they wanted those money, but they didnt want to make more content for the casuals.
    that is why we are here now

    Source? You posted numerous times your claims about sales but I've never seen anything that verifies them. There is a confusion and debate on this thread alone on what the word "casual" even mean, I'm sure the data you have will not only clearly state your numbers, but also provide an accurate definition of the word "casual" that is accepted by everyone.

    go to any mmo and find a super easy mission with a good reward. its gonna cramped with players there.
    now go to the endgame zones with all the HARDCORE content, and see if you can find even a handful of players.
    fast and easy sells, slow and hard not so much.

    That's not really proof of anything. Try again with some actual data

    yep, REAL LIFE doesnt prove anything, better wait for a SECRET PAPER from the BUSINESS itself....lol
    PS note that they are still sporting the 12 mio from F2P launch too. this isnt right...

    You're right. I'll just believe what I want to believe, which is clearly more right than what you want to believe as evidenced by the fact that people play the game and enjoy the things I enjoy, too! Yay! I win the internet!

  • Dante.1508Dante.1508 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mindcircus.1506 said:
    I find it telling that the people professing to speak for the casual viewpoint in this thread (specifically @battledrone.8315 and @Dante.1508 ) speak as "customers" and not "players".

    I always use customers as thats what we are, we pay money to this game, that makes us more than players. Just saying as you brought it up.

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mindcircus.1506 said:
    I find it telling that the people professing to speak for the casual viewpoint in this thread (specifically @battledrone.8315 and @Dante.1508 ) speak as "customers" and not "players".

    it is F2P, so one doesnt equal the other anymore. you could prolly play F2P games the rest of your life without ever paying a dime for it.
    but the devs still need to eat, so they NEED to convert F2Pers into customers.
    so, even as a F2P game, core still needs to be good. if it isnt, then people wont pay for the expansions
    and the ending of core is still horrible. if you liked the rest of of core, you will prolly HATE the end.
    it is almost the same problem, as the jump from core to hot...a total change in style and gameplay

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 13, 2020

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    it is F2P, so one doesnt equal the other anymore. you could prolly play F2P games the rest of your life without ever paying a dime for it.
    but the devs still need to eat, so they NEED to convert F2Pers into customers.
    so, even as a F2P game, core still needs to be good. if it isnt, then people wont pay for the expansions
    and the ending of core is still horrible. if you liked the rest of of core, you will prolly HATE the end.
    it is almost the same problem, as the jump from core to hot...a total change in style and gameplay

    You are absolutely right it's up to the core game to be good enough to convert players into paying customers. But since 30% of accounts haven't left the tutorial zones and 50-60% of the accounts haven't reached this "ending of core" you talk about, it's easy to say that core has trouble converting players. Meaning those "that liked the rest of core" are a small percentage of total accounts.

  • Cuks.8241Cuks.8241 Member ✭✭✭

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    go to any mmo and find a super easy mission with a good reward. its gonna cramped with players there.
    now go to the endgame zones with all the HARDCORE content, and see if you can find even a handful of players.
    fast and easy sells, slow and hard not so much.

    Interesting that Hot is consistently populated with players for years now, at least one map for meta at any gives time of day and packed on busy hours. That you can get a fractal group of any difficulty in 1 minute anytime and even dungeons are not an issue after all this time.
    Core Tyria, kinda empty.

  • @Cuks.8241 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    go to any mmo and find a super easy mission with a good reward. its gonna cramped with players there.
    now go to the endgame zones with all the HARDCORE content, and see if you can find even a handful of players.
    fast and easy sells, slow and hard not so much.

    Interesting that Hot is consistently populated with players for years now, at least one map for meta at any gives time of day and packed on busy hours. That you can get a fractal group of any difficulty in 1 minute anytime and even dungeons are not an issue after all this time.
    Core Tyria, kinda empty.

    Add amalgamated gemstones to core tyria world bosses, and it would be the same. Nothing special about that. Rewards are the only thing that motivate people, for some reason.

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    it is F2P, so one doesnt equal the other anymore. you could prolly play F2P games the rest of your life without ever paying a dime for it.
    but the devs still need to eat, so they NEED to convert F2Pers into customers.
    so, even as a F2P game, core still needs to be good. if it isnt, then people wont pay for the expansions
    and the ending of core is still horrible. if you liked the rest of of core, you will prolly HATE the end.
    it is almost the same problem, as the jump from core to hot...a total change in style and gameplay

    You are absolutely right it's up to the core game to be good enough to convert players into paying customers. But since 30% of accounts haven't left the tutorial zones and 50-60% of the accounts haven't reached this "ending of core" you talk about, it's easy to say that core has trouble converting players. Meaning those "that liked the rest of core" are a small percentage of total accounts.

    i doubt those numbers are true, they are much better, than blizzard ever had. that would mean 5-6 MIO potential buyers for hot...where are they now?
    1,5 mio players would be industry standard, and that is roughly what they got. a number that actually could be much better, if the ending of core wasnt so bad.

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 15, 2020

    @Cuks.8241 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    go to any mmo and find a super easy mission with a good reward. its gonna cramped with players there.
    now go to the endgame zones with all the HARDCORE content, and see if you can find even a handful of players.
    fast and easy sells, slow and hard not so much.

    Interesting that Hot is consistently populated with players for years now, at least one map for meta at any gives time of day and packed on busy hours. That you can get a fractal group of any difficulty in 1 minute anytime and even dungeons are not an issue after all this time.
    Core Tyria, kinda empty.

    grinding masteries does take a lot of time in the same maps, unlike core, where they are spread out over many more maps
    and if core really IS that empty, then the game is dying. like any society, an mmo simply NEEDS new blood to survive.
    with over a mio sold boxes, there shouldnt just be ONE instance, there should be many more...where are they?
    if we set player cap at 200 per map, there should be roughly 500 instances of hot, for it to be successful
    and that is only breaking even, if it actually was a BIG HIT, they would need many more

  • @battledrone.8315 said:

    @Cuks.8241 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    go to any mmo and find a super easy mission with a good reward. its gonna cramped with players there.
    now go to the endgame zones with all the HARDCORE content, and see if you can find even a handful of players.
    fast and easy sells, slow and hard not so much.

    Interesting that Hot is consistently populated with players for years now, at least one map for meta at any gives time of day and packed on busy hours. That you can get a fractal group of any difficulty in 1 minute anytime and even dungeons are not an issue after all this time.
    Core Tyria, kinda empty.

    grinding masteries does take a lot of time in the same maps, unlike core, where they are spread out over many more maps
    and if core really IS that empty, then the game is dying. like any society, an mmo simply NEEDS new blood to survive.
    with over a mio sold boxes, there shouldnt just be ONE instance, there should be many more...where are they?
    if we set player cap at 200 per map, there should be roughly 500 instances of hot, for it to be successful
    and that is only breaking even, if it actually was a BIG HIT, they would need many more

    It's a good thing HoT is a thing then! If the game were all like core, it'd be dead by now! Who's going to play such easy, generic trash? LoL

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Yggranya.5201 said:

    @Cuks.8241 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    go to any mmo and find a super easy mission with a good reward. its gonna cramped with players there.
    now go to the endgame zones with all the HARDCORE content, and see if you can find even a handful of players.
    fast and easy sells, slow and hard not so much.

    Interesting that Hot is consistently populated with players for years now, at least one map for meta at any gives time of day and packed on busy hours. That you can get a fractal group of any difficulty in 1 minute anytime and even dungeons are not an issue after all this time.
    Core Tyria, kinda empty.

    Add amalgamated gemstones to core tyria world bosses, and it would be the same. Nothing special about that. Rewards are the only thing that motivate people, for some reason.

    only at end game , the rewards in core were usually less than exciting. progression is usually the best motivator.
    REAL progression, that is, not horisontal

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    it is F2P, so one doesnt equal the other anymore. you could prolly play F2P games the rest of your life without ever paying a dime for it.
    but the devs still need to eat, so they NEED to convert F2Pers into customers.
    so, even as a F2P game, core still needs to be good. if it isnt, then people wont pay for the expansions
    and the ending of core is still horrible. if you liked the rest of of core, you will prolly HATE the end.
    it is almost the same problem, as the jump from core to hot...a total change in style and gameplay

    You are absolutely right it's up to the core game to be good enough to convert players into paying customers. But since 30% of accounts haven't left the tutorial zones and 50-60% of the accounts haven't reached this "ending of core" you talk about, it's easy to say that core has trouble converting players. Meaning those "that liked the rest of core" are a small percentage of total accounts.

    i doubt those numbers are true, they are much better, than blizzard ever had. that would mean 5-6 MIO potential buyers for hot...where are they now?

    The numbers are the "absolute maximum" using achievement point totals. The actual numbers are much lower indeed because a lot of players actually went after achievements during their time in the game, meaning they had more in total when they got bored of the core game and left.

    1,5 mio players would be industry standard, and that is roughly what they got. a number that actually could be much better, if the ending of core wasnt so bad.

    As explained already, it's the beginning of core that is the problem, not the ending. The beginning and mid part of core is where the largest drop off of accounts is in this game. The number of players retained would've been much higher if the early core game was better. Given how even on release the vast majority of players were playing in Orr (the "ending of core" as you call it) and the rest of the game became a wasteland early on, we can easily conclude that the ending of core was never a problem, maybe only for a tiny fraction of the playerbase like yourself, but not of any significant number of actual players

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @Yggranya.5201 said:

    @Cuks.8241 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    go to any mmo and find a super easy mission with a good reward. its gonna cramped with players there.
    now go to the endgame zones with all the HARDCORE content, and see if you can find even a handful of players.
    fast and easy sells, slow and hard not so much.

    Interesting that Hot is consistently populated with players for years now, at least one map for meta at any gives time of day and packed on busy hours. That you can get a fractal group of any difficulty in 1 minute anytime and even dungeons are not an issue after all this time.
    Core Tyria, kinda empty.

    Add amalgamated gemstones to core tyria world bosses, and it would be the same. Nothing special about that. Rewards are the only thing that motivate people, for some reason.

    only at end game , the rewards in core were usually less than exciting. progression is usually the best motivator.
    REAL progression, that is, not horisontal

    Yes that's why early core was mostly deserted for a very long time.
    World Bosses weren't run by anyone as the only reason to run them was to see the "big bad boss" in action, as rewards didn't exist
    Champions from events spawned and were left there alone for days, because like World Bosses, they had no rewards attached to them

    Core Tyria became populated in August 2013 with the Ascended Weapon/Armor update, which also updated World Bosses to provide a guaranteed rare chest and Champions were updated to drop ascended materials and guaranteed champion loot chests. That's when Core Tyria became "playable" until then it was only the zones of the most recent Living World Episode that had population and the mass grindfests of Orr (Penit/Shelter and Plinx) plus dungeons like Citadel of Flame Path 1 farm and Swamps of the Mists later on.

    Before August 2013 Core Tyria outside "end game" was mostly a wasteland and most of the game's events and activities were abandoned by the players due to them being unrewarding and boring.

  • Master Ketsu.4569Master Ketsu.4569 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 15, 2020

    What a lot of people who claim to be advocating for "casuals" here don't seem to understand is that asking the game be dumbed down to meet the lowest common denominator of skill, with the rationale that "casuals are paying customers too!!1111oneone!!!", is that this kind of demand is actually extremely selfish.

    To understand why this is selfish, simply employ some basic logic and reasoning:

    Lets say a game is too hard for the bottom skill floor , we will just say -10% of the playerbase. These bottom players essentially have two main options that will allow them to progress through and enjoy the game:
    1. Stop being lazy and put in the time to actually learn their class.
    2. Find another game that meets their skill level

    Now, lets say the Devs decide to pander to the bottom 10% of the playerbase, and dumb the game down so that it is now entirely playable for everyone regardless of skill level. But as a result the game is now mind numbingly and disgustingly boring for the top 10% of the playerbase. These top players essentially have one option:
    1. Find another game that meets their skill level

    Notice the problem here? Good players cant make themselves "forget" how to play and become bad just so they can enjoy content that has gone through the diaper-and-binky treatment. Unlike lesser skilled players, who absolutely can become better if they just put in a little effort. There are many reasons behind why pandering to the lesser skilled crowd is often bad, but this is the most crucial. When a casual cries that the game is too hard, what they are effectively asking for is for the devs to ruin the game for everyone else.

    And in the case of GW2 and HoT especially, this is wholly unfounded. HoT despite being the hardest of OW maps is still very easily soloable by just about anyone who has perfected their class and gone through endgame. If it was any easier, it would be just be pandering.

  • Cuks.8241Cuks.8241 Member ✭✭✭

    @Yggranya.5201 said:

    @Cuks.8241 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    go to any mmo and find a super easy mission with a good reward. its gonna cramped with players there.
    now go to the endgame zones with all the HARDCORE content, and see if you can find even a handful of players.
    fast and easy sells, slow and hard not so much.

    Interesting that Hot is consistently populated with players for years now, at least one map for meta at any gives time of day and packed on busy hours. That you can get a fractal group of any difficulty in 1 minute anytime and even dungeons are not an issue after all this time.
    Core Tyria, kinda empty.

    Add amalgamated gemstones to core tyria world bosses, and it would be the same. Nothing special about that. Rewards are the only thing that motivate people, for some reason.

    Why are Pof metas then less populated than Hot? They all give amalgamated gemstones. And Pof metas are easier, faster and require less people and less coordination than Hot. They are not much different than most off the longer event chains, many can be done by like 5 people. The only that is really populated is Casino Blitz.
    Besides amalgamated have dropped to 70 s lately.

  • @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @kraai.7265 said:

    @AdamWarlord.6782 said:
    Edit: This post is to voice a percentage of player base's opinion(may it be a minority, majority, or even just me) on HoT including mine. I have nothing less than love for the game Devs and the community. I have been playing for 2-3 years atleast, and have played some GW1 back in the day. Im not just throwing shade on the HoT content. ** I am trying to voice my opinion and my experience in a straightforward manner. **

    Alright, so i just finished up my online classes and studies for my upcoming third year exams and I sit to do my daily completion of a legendary, going on for weeks now. As you can understand, i don't have more than maybe 2-3 hours to play at best. Completion of Eternity and other core legendary weapons took time, but atleast it was doable without frustration and having "fun". When it comes to HoT, I don't know what i am even doing. I am trying to go around the map 90% of the time trying not to die because the floor minion mobs are so OVERPOWERED. I have been playing the game for 2 years, and i have avoided HoT every chance i got because of the same exact reasons i am about to mention.

    1. Its very hard to see, hate the map design and how dark it is in 70% of the places.
    2. Lags way too much on my mid end laptop.
    3. Floor mobs are wayy too overpowered and feel like boss mobs.
    4. Hence because of the same reason above, VERY hard to level up the masteries.
    5. Why do masteries you ask? Because there are wayy too many hero points and other aspects of the completion of HoT, which require doing them. Which sucks.
    6. I can't Solo 50% of the hero points, being a max reaper.
    7. WAIT, I NEED TO DO A ADRENALINE MASTERY TO DO A HERO POINT WHICH CONSUMES MY LIFE WHEN I EAT BACON? WHEN MY LIFE POOL IS 22k??
    8. I actually start to rage(sorry for caps above) playing guild wars 2, which is 90% of the time fun, except when i play HoT.
    9. And due to the above reasons i mentioned above, I actually can feel better playing DARK SOULS than HoT.

    I also get why they would be reluctant to nerf the mobs more and bring some player driven balance , but atleast 50% if not more gamers are casual on gw2 and want to play not to rage but to have a good time, i don't mind taking months to get my legendary, BUT ATLEAST let the process be fun. I don't want to get grabbed by a rip off stegosaurus while i'm on my raptor and get 2 shot with 22k health. Any balance, related to player level, or player-online time based balance on mobs, a bit more lighting in HoT maps, a bit more of anything. I get HoT is a very old expansion and that Cantha is coming. But atleast respect your players who are trying their hardest to stick to the game and trying to voice their opinions for a change. And of-course please try providing it. Alright! Back to returning to a checkpoint which takes me halfway across the map from the hero point i just died on, and try to re attempt it with broken armor, because there is no repair station nearby, and i don't have a million repair canisters because i'm a casual.

    Edit: I realized they have nerfed the difficulty once, i can't imagine what the mobs were like.
    Edit: I get where most of you all are coming from, But as i said, its my opinion and many other casual gamers opinion on the content. Leading to a player driven balance, not a balance for everyone.

    What do you all challenge haters pretend of this game? To be a walk in the park? Do you want anet to turn mobs into freaking paintings? Havn't you had enough with core tyria beeing so freaking easy? do you want mobs to become static with no attack or interaction whatsoever? This is the mentality that drove anet to the mess they are in now, with no clear direction and all sort of players leaving, first they lost almost all pvpers, now they are loosing hardcore pvers, soon they will only have open world bots running around playing for a few months and quitting out of boredom, and all of the ones playing fashion wars standing still in the bank...

    its pretty easy: we liked core, and thats what we want MORE of...not something ENTIRELY DIFFERENT
    quitting the game AFTER you played it, out of BOREDOM, is still better than quitting BEFORE the end
    if you made a meal for all you friends, and they all put down the fork after one bite, it prolly wasnt that great
    but if they clear the table in record time, and ask for MORE, then it has the quality, that people wil PAY for

    Average players love HoT and find core laughably easy. We want more HoT.

    Unless you've got a mouse in your pocket, you don't speak for a plurality, and the mouse might not agree with you. I, for example, think HoT's maps are great because I personally enjoy exploration, and 3d maps that use the Z axis are usually things I like.

    What I don't like are tedious mobs, and I draw a ten foot tall wall of concertina wire between what I call tedious and what I call challenging. Something being 'challenging' to tolerate is not the right kind of challenge, and I've been finding too many mobs of HoT's design to be irritations, not fun challenges, since day 1.

    I want to see mobs with less cheesy supermassive AOE's and knockdown spam and ridiculous multi-hit attacks and more play/counterplay options that actually require tactics rather than negate most builds on most classes by making nothing useful or important to survival except lots of DPS, lots of dodging and as many HP or as much sustain as you can cram in there.

    HoT mobs are some of the most boring things in the game to me because they're like a badly designed series of hurdles I have to jump every time I want to do something in HoT maps. They're not fun to deal with, and PoF didn't improve on this at all, but that's a different topic.

    A lot of people will admit that HoT was designed to break the overworld Zerker meta. Low HP, minimal defense 100% glass cannon builds without a single utility slot spared to anything but moar damage was gold standard back in the day because it worked. You could get away with dodging as your only defense in core Tyria and usually be just fine.

    HoT broke that meta alright...and replaced it with an equally boring but now actually necessary one. From HoT onwards, you need to do as much DPS as you can afford to do without sacrificing your mobility or your hp/sustain. You skimp on any of those and you're going to have a bad time.

    ...Unless you zerg up. Group up in HoT and you trivialize the entire expansion except for the zone metas, which are the only content that poses even the slightest amount of challenge through requirements of coordination to the players. And the coordination requirements are minimal, but still sufficient to see disorganized AB metas fail on the reg.

    A whole lot of time clearly went into crafting the mechanics and AI on HoT's mobs, and grouping up in even just a small group deletes the point of that effort completely.

    Who is actually challenged by HoT mobs? Solo players are, and a solo player that builds for high DPS, high mobility and high HP/sustain will find most HoT mobs to be tedious, not difficult. If your class has good utilities for missile reflect/durable blocks, you can sleep your way through most of HoT and get some of the worst mobs to kill themselves on your missile reflects.

    But if you don't build for mobility, hp/sustain and as much DPS as you can shove in...you're gonna have a bad time. There's only one correct way to build for soloing around HoT maps, and unlike the problem with vanilla's Zerker meta wherein which you were rewarded for quick kills and maximum mob tagging by sacrificing everthing for more dps and more aoe, HoT rewards no build strategy except what I've been talking about at all.

    Your reward in HoT for building and gearing for high dps, mobility and hp/sustain is that you turn challenge into tedium. You don't get a positive reward for it. You arguably don't get rewarded at all because building right for HoT trivializes most of it and renders even the cheesed-up challenge to be nothing more than irritation of having to deal with this boring drek on your way to whatever it was you actually wanted to do.

    Positive rewards are for zergs. Some of the most rewarding content in this entire game are AB and LS4 metas...whiiiiich are done in big zergy lightballs.

    Zerg to win has been a cornerstone of this game since day 1. I'm not even against it - there's no barrier to entry, even a total doofus can get in on that and contribute something and at the end, everyone gets their inventory full of whacky junk and we all feel chuffed because who doesn't like sorting their loot and making a few more G?

    HoT requires three zergs to coordinate a little bit. That's challenging for random 'We might as well give it a try since its happening' groups, but no challenge at all for anyone coordinating things.

    So where exactly is the challenge of HoT that we all supposedly want more of, because I just don't see it. What I do see are annoying mobs that hit too hard with multi-attacks, AoE fields the size of small nations, DoTs that are treated like special effects that you can't cleanse with your cleansing powers and knockdown spam. Conditions you can't cleanse and knockdown spam are especially obnoxious because those specifically target counterplay options and throw them in the dumpster - you can't do anything about them no matter how you gear, build or play. They remove player agency and negate what little purpose there is in building a character for the content, because you're just going to get uncleansable dots and chained knockdowns spammed on you by various mobs anyway, and the only counterplay option you have?

    Roll around in a zerg. It's all trivialized to the point of virtual non-existence in a zerg.

    That's supposed to be fun challenge? I don't agree. And I, at least, don't want more of that.

  • @naiasonod.9265 said:
    So where exactly is the challenge of HoT that we all supposedly want more of, because I just don't see it. What I do see are annoying mobs that hit too hard with multi-attacks, AoE fields the size of small nations, DoTs that are treated like special effects that you can't cleanse with your cleansing powers and knockdown spam. Conditions you can't cleanse and knockdown spam are especially obnoxious because those specifically target counterplay options and throw them in the dumpster - you can't do anything about them no matter how you gear, build or play. They remove player agency and negate what little purpose there is in building a character for the content, because you're just going to get uncleansable dots and chained knockdowns spammed on you by various mobs anyway, and the only counterplay option you have?

    huh what? which dots are you talking about?
    knockdown spam has 3 counterplay options:
    1. kite from distance with high dps
    2. have a high sustain so you can afk while laying around
    3. spam stability, aegis and dodge
    in HoT all three work fairly well, so i don'T see your "only 1 option" thing. not to mention that your mentioned option is basically having everything at maximum which isn't possible...

    AoE fields the size of small nations? i never had a problem with ground denial (except the shroom hp in tangled depths) in HoT and i run full melee. i, however, do have a ground denial problem in PoF, so i find that content a lot more tedious even if it is easier.

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @Cuks.8241 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    go to any mmo and find a super easy mission with a good reward. its gonna cramped with players there.
    now go to the endgame zones with all the HARDCORE content, and see if you can find even a handful of players.
    fast and easy sells, slow and hard not so much.

    Interesting that Hot is consistently populated with players for years now, at least one map for meta at any gives time of day and packed on busy hours. That you can get a fractal group of any difficulty in 1 minute anytime and even dungeons are not an issue after all this time.
    Core Tyria, kinda empty.

    grinding masteries does take a lot of time in the same maps, unlike core, where they are spread out over many more maps
    and if core really IS that empty, then the game is dying. like any society, an mmo simply NEEDS new blood to survive.
    with over a mio sold boxes, there shouldnt just be ONE instance, there should be many more...where are they?
    if we set player cap at 200 per map, there should be roughly 500 instances of hot, for it to be successful
    and that is only breaking even, if it actually was a BIG HIT, they would need many more

    It's a good thing HoT is a thing then! If the game were all like core, it'd be dead by now! Who's going to play such easy, generic trash? LoL

    youd better hope, that there are many , or hot will die too.
    and if hot had just a fraction of cores qualities, then they would be far better off

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    it is F2P, so one doesnt equal the other anymore. you could prolly play F2P games the rest of your life without ever paying a dime for it.
    but the devs still need to eat, so they NEED to convert F2Pers into customers.
    so, even as a F2P game, core still needs to be good. if it isnt, then people wont pay for the expansions
    and the ending of core is still horrible. if you liked the rest of of core, you will prolly HATE the end.
    it is almost the same problem, as the jump from core to hot...a total change in style and gameplay

    You are absolutely right it's up to the core game to be good enough to convert players into paying customers. But since 30% of accounts haven't left the tutorial zones and 50-60% of the accounts haven't reached this "ending of core" you talk about, it's easy to say that core has trouble converting players. Meaning those "that liked the rest of core" are a small percentage of total accounts.

    i doubt those numbers are true, they are much better, than blizzard ever had. that would mean 5-6 MIO potential buyers for hot...where are they now?

    The numbers are the "absolute maximum" using achievement point totals. The actual numbers are much lower indeed because a lot of players actually went after achievements during their time in the game, meaning they had more in total when they got bored of the core game and left.

    1,5 mio players would be industry standard, and that is roughly what they got. a number that actually could be much better, if the ending of core wasnt so bad.

    As explained already, it's the beginning of core that is the problem, not the ending. The beginning and mid part of core is where the largest drop off of accounts is in this game. The number of players retained would've been much higher if the early core game was better. Given how even on release the vast majority of players were playing in Orr (the "ending of core" as you call it) and the rest of the game became a wasteland early on, we can easily conclude that the ending of core was never a problem, maybe only for a tiny fraction of the playerbase like yourself, but not of any significant number of actual players

    if those numbers are true, then hot is even worse, since core has outperformed wow by a huge margin
    and you never explained, where all the missing instances where either.
    a successful hot would need 500 POPULATED instances....but youre happy to find just ONE ...lol

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Master Ketsu.4569 said:
    What a lot of people who claim to be advocating for "casuals" here don't seem to understand is that asking the game be dumbed down to meet the lowest common denominator of skill, with the rationale that "casuals are paying customers too!!1111oneone!!!", is that this kind of demand is actually extremely selfish.

    To understand why this is selfish, simply employ some basic logic and reasoning:

    Lets say a game is too hard for the bottom skill floor , we will just say -10% of the playerbase. These bottom players essentially have two main options that will allow them to progress through and enjoy the game:
    1. Stop being lazy and put in the time to actually learn their class.
    2. Find another game that meets their skill level

    Now, lets say the Devs decide to pander to the bottom 10% of the playerbase, and dumb the game down so that it is now entirely playable for everyone regardless of skill level. But as a result the game is now mind numbingly and disgustingly boring for the top 10% of the playerbase. These top players essentially have one option:
    1. Find another game that meets their skill level

    Notice the problem here? Good players cant make themselves "forget" how to play and become bad just so they can enjoy content that has gone through the diaper-and-binky treatment. Unlike lesser skilled players, who absolutely can become better if they just put in a little effort. There are many reasons behind why pandering to the lesser skilled crowd is often bad, but this is the most crucial. When a casual cries that the game is too hard, what they are effectively asking for is for the devs to ruin the game for everyone else.

    And in the case of GW2 and HoT especially, this is wholly unfounded. HoT despite being the hardest of OW maps is still very easily soloable by just about anyone who has perfected their class and gone through endgame. If it was any easier, it would be just be pandering.

    good luck with that. "perfecting their class" is not what casuals do. and the core game didnt set up for that either.

    it is basically a different GAME. not much of an expansion

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    it is F2P, so one doesnt equal the other anymore. you could prolly play F2P games the rest of your life without ever paying a dime for it.
    but the devs still need to eat, so they NEED to convert F2Pers into customers.
    so, even as a F2P game, core still needs to be good. if it isnt, then people wont pay for the expansions
    and the ending of core is still horrible. if you liked the rest of of core, you will prolly HATE the end.
    it is almost the same problem, as the jump from core to hot...a total change in style and gameplay

    You are absolutely right it's up to the core game to be good enough to convert players into paying customers. But since 30% of accounts haven't left the tutorial zones and 50-60% of the accounts haven't reached this "ending of core" you talk about, it's easy to say that core has trouble converting players. Meaning those "that liked the rest of core" are a small percentage of total accounts.

    i doubt those numbers are true, they are much better, than blizzard ever had. that would mean 5-6 MIO potential buyers for hot...where are they now?

    The numbers are the "absolute maximum" using achievement point totals. The actual numbers are much lower indeed because a lot of players actually went after achievements during their time in the game, meaning they had more in total when they got bored of the core game and left.

    1,5 mio players would be industry standard, and that is roughly what they got. a number that actually could be much better, if the ending of core wasnt so bad.

    As explained already, it's the beginning of core that is the problem, not the ending. The beginning and mid part of core is where the largest drop off of accounts is in this game. The number of players retained would've been much higher if the early core game was better. Given how even on release the vast majority of players were playing in Orr (the "ending of core" as you call it) and the rest of the game became a wasteland early on, we can easily conclude that the ending of core was never a problem, maybe only for a tiny fraction of the playerbase like yourself, but not of any significant number of actual players

    if those numbers are true, then hot is even worse, since core has outperformed wow by a huge margin

    How/when did core outperform wow? You have official wow numbers?

    and you never explained, where all the missing instances where either.
    a successful hot would need 500 POPULATED instances....but youre happy to find just ONE ...lol

    Given how the game, at its best, had 400k concurrent players, when it sold 3 million copies in just 4 months, it's safe to assume that the number of populated instances required for a "Successful hot" would only be a tiny fraction of that, since the majority of players stopped playing the game thanks to the core.

    By the way, how do you know how many populated instances the game has across all its maps and zones?

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    Given how the game, at its best, had 400k concurrent players, when it sold 3 million copies in just 4 months, it's safe to assume that the number of populated instances required for a "Successful hot" would only be a tiny fraction of that, since the majority of players stopped playing the game thanks to the core.

    You know that the majority of players that quit was due to core... how?

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 16, 2020

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    Given how the game, at its best, had 400k concurrent players, when it sold 3 million copies in just 4 months, it's safe to assume that the number of populated instances required for a "Successful hot" would only be a tiny fraction of that, since the majority of players stopped playing the game thanks to the core.

    You know that the majority of players that quit was due to core... how?

    There are multiple ways to count players (or to be more accurate, accounts), one such hint is the fact that 50% of the total game's accounts have less than 268 Achievement Points. Which means these player accounts stopped a very long time before reaching HOT (or even the end game of Core for that matter) And that of course doesn't include all those players that quit the game much later after accumulating a lot of achievement points, by playing the game more actively. And still quit long before the expansion even hit.

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    Given how the game, at its best, had 400k concurrent players, when it sold 3 million copies in just 4 months, it's safe to assume that the number of populated instances required for a "Successful hot" would only be a tiny fraction of that, since the majority of players stopped playing the game thanks to the core.

    You know that the majority of players that quit was due to core... how?

    There are multiple ways to count players (or to be more accurate, accounts), one such hint is the fact that 50% of the total game's accounts have less than 268 Achievement Points. Which means these player accounts stopped a very long time before reaching HOT (or even the end game of Core for that matter) And that of course doesn't include all those players that quit the game much later after accumulating a lot of achievement points, by playing the game more actively. And still quit long before the expansion even hit.

    You have this actual data of 50% of the game's accounts? Or are you using GW2Efficiency to make this claim?

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.