Follow Up to my Original Post, "The Death of Thief" - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums
Home PVP

Follow Up to my Original Post, "The Death of Thief"

245

Comments

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @ArthurDent.9538 said:
    The obvious solution to this is get Trevor on thief and unowen on ranger/warrior in the same foefire custom arena together and have them foot race from one Lord room to the other (no porting over the cliffs in the middle). As for me I'll gladly bet 100g on thief winning, any takers?

    I am willing to stream it as well. I'll play the Thief. And yes, I want to put gold down on this.

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @ArthurDent.9538 said:
    The obvious solution to this is get Trevor on thief and unowen on ranger/warrior in the same foefire custom arena together and have them foot race from one Lord room to the other (no porting over the cliffs in the middle). As for me I'll gladly bet 100g on thief winning, any takers?

    Which part of "perfectly horizontal" are you not quite getting? The point was that specifically sPvPs non-horizontal map design is why thieves mobility beats ranger and warrior, while WvWs perfectly flat planes make warrior and ranger win.

    We can do it in pvp, in wvw, in a pve dungeon, in a plane, on a train, it won't matter. The Thief will always win.

    Find a friend on soulbeast and warrior and do it then. And do it properly, like I did a while back. Odds are youll get the same result, which is warrior and ranger winning. Do watch out if youre trying to do it around castle in EBG though, sometimes you get the no valid path thing there, which might ruin the race. But no, thief will never win on a perfectly horizontal plane. Thats what the math shows, and thats what a couple tests I did showed as well.

  • @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @ArthurDent.9538 said:
    The obvious solution to this is get Trevor on thief and unowen on ranger/warrior in the same foefire custom arena together and have them foot race from one Lord room to the other (no porting over the cliffs in the middle). As for me I'll gladly bet 100g on thief winning, any takers?

    I am willing to stream it as well. I'll play the Thief. And yes, I want to put gold down on this.

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @ArthurDent.9538 said:
    The obvious solution to this is get Trevor on thief and unowen on ranger/warrior in the same foefire custom arena together and have them foot race from one Lord room to the other (no porting over the cliffs in the middle). As for me I'll gladly bet 100g on thief winning, any takers?

    Which part of "perfectly horizontal" are you not quite getting? The point was that specifically sPvPs non-horizontal map design is why thieves mobility beats ranger and warrior, while WvWs perfectly flat planes make warrior and ranger win.

    We can do it in pvp, in wvw, in a pve dungeon, in a plane, on a train, it won't matter. The Thief will always win.

    Find a friend on soulbeast and warrior and do it then. And do it properly, like I did a while back. Odds are youll get the same result, which is warrior and ranger winning. Do watch out if youre trying to do it around castle in EBG though, sometimes you get the no valid path thing there, which might ruin the race. But no, thief will never win on a perfectly horizontal plane. Thats what the math shows, and thats what a couple tests I did showed as well.

    No, I need you to help me do this race so it gets done properly. I want to play the Thief and you be on the Soulbeast.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @ArthurDent.9538 said:
    The obvious solution to this is get Trevor on thief and unowen on ranger/warrior in the same foefire custom arena together and have them foot race from one Lord room to the other (no porting over the cliffs in the middle). As for me I'll gladly bet 100g on thief winning, any takers?

    I am willing to stream it as well. I'll play the Thief. And yes, I want to put gold down on this.

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @ArthurDent.9538 said:
    The obvious solution to this is get Trevor on thief and unowen on ranger/warrior in the same foefire custom arena together and have them foot race from one Lord room to the other (no porting over the cliffs in the middle). As for me I'll gladly bet 100g on thief winning, any takers?

    Which part of "perfectly horizontal" are you not quite getting? The point was that specifically sPvPs non-horizontal map design is why thieves mobility beats ranger and warrior, while WvWs perfectly flat planes make warrior and ranger win.

    We can do it in pvp, in wvw, in a pve dungeon, in a plane, on a train, it won't matter. The Thief will always win.

    Find a friend on soulbeast and warrior and do it then. And do it properly, like I did a while back. Odds are youll get the same result, which is warrior and ranger winning. Do watch out if youre trying to do it around castle in EBG though, sometimes you get the no valid path thing there, which might ruin the race. But no, thief will never win on a perfectly horizontal plane. Thats what the math shows, and thats what a couple tests I did showed as well.

    No, I need you to help me do this race so it gets done properly. I want to play the Thief and you be on the Soulbeast.

    What if I say no? Ive seen how this goes before, even when they get proven wrong, people dont admit it. So I have no reason to waste time for it. Try it out, or more likely dont. The fact that youre wrong wont change.

  • Naqam a.6521Naqam a.6521 Member ✭✭
    edited September 13, 2020

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    @UNOwen.7132 lol you just say things that are wrong man.

    1. Rangers and Warriors do not outpace thief in a horizontal race. I don't understand how you can possibly argue with the breakdown that I presented.

    Because the breakdown you presented is incorrect, leaves out a lot of things.

    1. You said that: "Out of combat, 33% or 50% doesnt make a difference" which is silly because in pvp you're always in combat. Even if we were talking out of combat, the DP Daredevil is still clearly faster. As much can be viewed from the breakdown.

    We were talking about a horizontal race. That does not include in-combat. And if we talk out of combat, Ranger is clearly much faster, as you can see from the corrected breakdown. Oh and fun fact: If we were talking in-combat, warrior actually pulls ahead a lot, because they spend less time just running and more time in movement.

    1. Then you say: "Additionally in order to obtain anything close to permastealth, thief has to slow down a lot. Far more than they get from it. So, not a point." It's not about permastealth, it's about the small stealths like their heal skill, which is 24s CD traited for a 6s +50% movement, or Steal if it is traited to grant stealth with significantly large reduction in CD. Between just the heal and steal, not counting any other sources of stealth, a PD Core or DP dd is essentially getting 9s of +50% movement per 24s. That's something like 40% uptime of +50% movement my dude. So if they cycle the usage wisely, they use the porting during the 15s that the 50% movement is on CD, and run with the 50% movement for 9s while init is building back up. There is an extremely small margin of time where the thief has to WASD with only 33% Swift, very small margin of time. So yeah, that +50% movement from stealth is extremely significant in this breakdown, whether you look at from in combat or out.

    "that's 50% movement on a class that can perma stealth". Quite literally what you wrote. Dont complain that I point out something you say yourself. Its not significant at all, because out of combat 33% and 50% is nearly identical (its a difference of 10 movement speed or so), and in-combat its inferior to spending more time in movement skills (if you want, I can break down in-combat movement as well. Just as a spoiler: Warrior and Ranger are faster).

    1. Shadow Step is 40s when traited in Shadow Arts my dude.

    Ah, right, fair enough.

    1. You said: "Lets put it to 40 seconds, shall we? So, we get at most 1 shadowstep" No you get 2x. You use Shadow Step immediately at the start of the 60s timer, as well as 2x SB#5s. I already pointed this out in the breakdown. You do this early, first skills used, so that they come off CD faster during the 60s timer. My good bro, you get to use Shadow Step twice in the 60s race. And don't worry, I already calculated the rest of the breakdown for Range/War in the same way with their skill usage.

    And even with that, Ranger is ahead. Without even using sword. And no, you didnt. You forgot a lot of things, as I pointed out, and made a lot of wrong assumptions.

    1. Then you go on to say: "Infiltrators arrow is not instant either. Theyre both about a second, but swoop carries you a tiny bit further." again, you're not noticing something important for this comparison. The SB#5 does have an animation time but it DOES NOT stop your WASD movement walking speed while casting it. So the Thief is still moving with WASD while the animation begins, an when it ends it instantly moves him with no interruption to the WASD movement. Swoop and Gazelle F2 or Bull's Charge or Rush, REPLACE all WASD movement and actually cause small pauses to it before and after the animations. A Swoop may be 1000 range but it is on a 10s CD that is effectively an 11s CD because the recharge doesn't begin until the 1s animation ends. The Sb#5 on the other hand, does not interrupt the initiative regen whatsoever and maintains a sound 2x 900 range uses per 12s = 1800 range per 12s, all the while not interrupting the WASD movement of the Thief at all, nor does Shadow Step or Steal.

    Why does it stopping WASD movement matter, exactly? After you use Shortbow 5, no matter how or where you move, your location is locked in. You will always travel 900 units from your original point. Thats 900 units per second. Meanwhile Rush and swoop and whatever all finish their full animation also in a second, and you can move freely instantly. Thats 1200 units per second. Thats more distance covered in the same time. That is all that matters. I get what youre trying to do, muddle the waters to hide important aspects that dismantle your argument, but it doesnt work.

    1. And then this here is just entirely and completely incorrect in every possible way. You said that: "You get both Bird Swoop and Gazelle Charge, actually. You cant swap pets in-combat, but were not looking at in-combat. So thats 1200 on 12 seconds and Swoops 1200 on 18 seconds. Theyre also both about a second." OK so first, we are looking at in-combat because that's what happens in a pvp setting. When you're talking about things chasing each other and running from each other, that's what's happening, people in combat. When a Soulbeast is in combat it can't swap pets. Even if we were talking about out of combat, you are seriously not understanding some things about Ranger here. Again, Soulbeast does not use Swiftness skills. It relies on Beastmastery trait merge for a flat 30% movement speed WHILE MERGED. When you try to swap pets, they go on a 9s CD and during that 9s you do not benefit the 30% movement. Even if you were using Swiftness from the bird when it was unmerged, it only lasts 10s and it takes time to cast. Then when you swap to the Gazelle the pet swap goes on 9s CD and merge will be on a 10s CD after you left bird. So now you swap to Gazelle and you have to stand there and wait for the merge CD to come off timer before you can even get into the Gazelle to use the F2. So theoretically I see what you're trying to argue but it doesn't pan out in the way that you were thinking because of merge timer. In other words, without writing a thesis on this one aspect, you'll make better distance by camping beast mode in Gazelle for the 30% movement baseline and F2 Charge on a 13s cycle. Trying to swap pets and adding in that 9 to 10s buffer to wait to remerge will kill your skill usage cycling & distance.

    Lots to unpack here. Let me just copy the important parts and address them one by one.

    OK so first, we are looking at in-combat because that's what happens in a pvp setting

    No we arent. Were talking about a horizontal race. You dont have a race in-combat. And the original context was about cross-map movement. You know, going to decap and +1? You also do that out of combat. So already youre very wrong.

    Again, Soulbeast does not use Swiftness skills

    Oh, do they now?. Yeah thats a load of kitten. And you use it while merged. And then there are stances or warhorn or whatever.

    1. Then you say: "You get swiftness from owl + your choice between stances, warhorn, or whatever. You hit the max cap all the same." OK first of all, whatever you're referencing is not going to be any faster than any other Soulbeast build aside from some +3% gain in movement from having Swiftness over merge trait. Upon that, using warhorn and stances and owl on a Soulbeast is not a practical build to be using in pvp. You need to be using Longbow and Greatsword, and Smokescale, because when you merge and go into combat you cannot swap pets and you need the Smokescale the most for obvious reasons. So whatever you're referencing here is about as far away as it could get from a realistic build comparison.

    Its not much of a boost, but its a boost. And again, talking out of combat, so you hit the movement speed cap. And sure its not a practical build because you dont care for map movement since you need vertical movement. But in WvW, its actually a build. A version of boonbeast specifically.

    1. Then you start talking about 1hand Sword on a Ranger. Just no. You suggest the idea that someone is going to run Greatsword for Swoop with a 1hand Sword with a Warhorn apparnetly for competitive purposes? Even if they did and even if they were out of combat, that 1hand Sword jump has this weird hampering effect with its animation that hinders the Ranger just enough to where it barely gains any distance at all compared to what the tooltip says. If you're talking a foot race like this, the 600 range on Sword#2 is more like 300 range in terms of distance gained because of the weird animation at the beginning and the pause at the end before the Ranger is allowed to move with WASD afterwards. And upon that man, that build would be terrible in combat regardless of if it was DPS or Bunker, doesn't matter. Those weapon sets would be hot garbage together. The days of old Boonbeast setups have been looooooong gone for awhile now man. Sword/Warhorn/Greatsword would get you jacked up in a hurry if you tried to run it in pvp or wvw.

    That "weird animation" is called a cast time. Its still faster. And sure, as I said, its redundant anyway. Youre ahead. And sure it wouldnt be good for 1v1s or teamfights. But neither is thief, is it? The point is to have a hypothetical thief analogue that can move across the map if they were horizontal.

    1. And then War I'm not going to discuss because it's slower than Ranger and Ranger is slower than Thief, and the same mistakes were made while viewing the breakdown, concerning not taking into account the hampering of movement from animations. A good example on War is GS#3 Whirlwind. That skill has some serious animation hampering. It doesn't boost you ahead nearly as much as the tooltip would make you think. Using a WW alongside of a guy who was just running with Swiftness 33%, would only put you ahead maybe 60-80 range from him, due to how the animation actually works.

    Its slower than ranger, yes. Its faster than thief. I did not make any mistakes. I counted the animation and stated it. It boosts you by exactly as much as I have said.

    At any rate man, the purpose of my comparisons were to use realistic build structures for pvp while being in combat. The purpose was not to point out theoretical weird run builds designed for GW1 Droknar's Forge run. I could do the same thing for Thief, point out of a bunch theoretical options that could improve its movement speed and init gain, ect ect, but that's unrealistic.

    You couldnt. Youre pretty much hitting the cap. Roll for initiative, perhaps, but that barely boosts you, and then youre tapped out. The purpose was to show that in horizontal movement thief is faster than ranger and warrior, and you failed to show that at all, because its not true.

    But just to humour you, what if it was in-combat? Well lets start with warrior. Its easier. 12600 over 16.45 remains the same, its not affected by in combat vs out of combat. So, 23.5 seconds of swiftness movement. Thats 280 units per second. So 23.5*280= 6580. For a total of 19180 units in 40 seconds. To compare, thief has the 7200 over 8. So, 32 seconds of movement. Lets be very generous and assume thief has 50% extra movement speed during the entire 32 seconds (needless to say, he wont). Thats 32*315= 10080. For a total of 17280. Thats almost 2k less. And that was with me being very generous. If we instead assume realistically the thief only has, lets say, 12 seconds of 50% movement, then its only 16580. Almost 3k less. Yeah, pretty rough for the thief, innit?

    You maths are kinda off by a bit
    a) For example you didn't calculate that Thief can use Dash (450 yards yard range) x6times in those 40 sec
    (2 in start + once every 10 sec) .

    So I didnt. Although its 5 times, not 6. 3 at the start, then one every 10 seconds, but you dont start with dash. Thats 750 units. Less far behind, but still behind.

    b) The 50% speed bonus on stealth is translated into 36-37% movement speed in combat

    Well, I did say "its about 10 units or so". 9 to be precise. You throw in about, idk, 110 units. Its still behind.

    c) Combining those 2 , you will get out of combat faster without being him and your 50% out of combat speed in stealth will be fully enabled

    Nah, if you combine those 2 thief still falls behind by a lot.

    and d) if you stealth , he cannot outrun you , because he cannot find you :)

    Thats not how outrunning is defined.

    Yeah it seems both of us haven't played much GW2 :)
    Daredevil has 3 dodges from the start + once per 10 sec . So in total is 7 in 40 sec

    Wait did I mess up my math? Oh its 6. Not 7. You dont start with dash. You start with shortbow 5, since initiative is more important to recharge.

    In an combat race , you start with the more easy available spell , in our case is Dash . Otherwise the delay from switching weapon + use the Arrow can be fatal . You can equip it while on the Dash animation

    Nope, see above.

    The 50% speed bonus on stealth is translated into 36-37% movement speed in combat
    Druids and Warriors with swiftness its 33%

    Percentage is meaningless, you want the real unit. That is a difference of 9 units per second. So after 40 seconds of running, youd barely be at 360. Its not much.

    I pretty sure the Thiefs will get out of combat faster and his 50% speed will be enabled :)

    He wont actually. And this is not what the race is about. And the 50% speed is meaningless, as seen above.

    a) Nope see above , you start with the Dash , you will waste 0,5 sec by equipping the shortbow and till the arrow its traveled .
    Its more scientific acceptable to do that while you are on the Dash animation
    edit: With my method (7 dashes) , i can use 2 Dash to give my resources time to recuperate + travel 900 more yards

    You dont. You dont equip shortbow, and you start with shortbow because initiative is more important of a resource than endurance. Its 1.5 units per second when youre regening endurance, vs 150 per second with shortbow 5. PRetty big.

    b)Its not 9 units .
    Its 3% difference movement increased x 40 sec = the number will be inflating even after that = they will never catch you

    Its literally 9 units per second. Its 391 units per second vs 400 units per second. Its so little its irrelevant.

    c) I pretty sure the Thiefs will get out of combat faster and his 50% speed will be enabled will travel even more distance

    Again, we start out of combat. And again, the speed makes close to no difference.

    a)No sorry , but with your method you will be off by 900 yards less from your goal .
    Try to imagine this Dodge > arrow > dodge > dodge(both 2 free) > arrow
    With your method and 5 dodges , you will be 900 yard less and your resources will not have time to be restored

    b) If we start out of combat , then the Warrior + Druid will be running by 33% vs 50% of you .
    It will be 17% difference in speed/distance x40 sec = 2040 yards and will be increasing by the second

    Try to think it more rational , you will outrun them both:)
    Or try to stealth and hide them :)

    1 month

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    @UNOwen.7132 lol you just say things that are wrong man.

    1. Rangers and Warriors do not outpace thief in a horizontal race. I don't understand how you can possibly argue with the breakdown that I presented.

    Because the breakdown you presented is incorrect, leaves out a lot of things.

    1. You said that: "Out of combat, 33% or 50% doesnt make a difference" which is silly because in pvp you're always in combat. Even if we were talking out of combat, the DP Daredevil is still clearly faster. As much can be viewed from the breakdown.

    We were talking about a horizontal race. That does not include in-combat. And if we talk out of combat, Ranger is clearly much faster, as you can see from the corrected breakdown. Oh and fun fact: If we were talking in-combat, warrior actually pulls ahead a lot, because they spend less time just running and more time in movement.

    1. Then you say: "Additionally in order to obtain anything close to permastealth, thief has to slow down a lot. Far more than they get from it. So, not a point." It's not about permastealth, it's about the small stealths like their heal skill, which is 24s CD traited for a 6s +50% movement, or Steal if it is traited to grant stealth with significantly large reduction in CD. Between just the heal and steal, not counting any other sources of stealth, a PD Core or DP dd is essentially getting 9s of +50% movement per 24s. That's something like 40% uptime of +50% movement my dude. So if they cycle the usage wisely, they use the porting during the 15s that the 50% movement is on CD, and run with the 50% movement for 9s while init is building back up. There is an extremely small margin of time where the thief has to WASD with only 33% Swift, very small margin of time. So yeah, that +50% movement from stealth is extremely significant in this breakdown, whether you look at from in combat or out.

    "that's 50% movement on a class that can perma stealth". Quite literally what you wrote. Dont complain that I point out something you say yourself. Its not significant at all, because out of combat 33% and 50% is nearly identical (its a difference of 10 movement speed or so), and in-combat its inferior to spending more time in movement skills (if you want, I can break down in-combat movement as well. Just as a spoiler: Warrior and Ranger are faster).

    1. Shadow Step is 40s when traited in Shadow Arts my dude.

    Ah, right, fair enough.

    1. You said: "Lets put it to 40 seconds, shall we? So, we get at most 1 shadowstep" No you get 2x. You use Shadow Step immediately at the start of the 60s timer, as well as 2x SB#5s. I already pointed this out in the breakdown. You do this early, first skills used, so that they come off CD faster during the 60s timer. My good bro, you get to use Shadow Step twice in the 60s race. And don't worry, I already calculated the rest of the breakdown for Range/War in the same way with their skill usage.

    And even with that, Ranger is ahead. Without even using sword. And no, you didnt. You forgot a lot of things, as I pointed out, and made a lot of wrong assumptions.

    1. Then you go on to say: "Infiltrators arrow is not instant either. Theyre both about a second, but swoop carries you a tiny bit further." again, you're not noticing something important for this comparison. The SB#5 does have an animation time but it DOES NOT stop your WASD movement walking speed while casting it. So the Thief is still moving with WASD while the animation begins, an when it ends it instantly moves him with no interruption to the WASD movement. Swoop and Gazelle F2 or Bull's Charge or Rush, REPLACE all WASD movement and actually cause small pauses to it before and after the animations. A Swoop may be 1000 range but it is on a 10s CD that is effectively an 11s CD because the recharge doesn't begin until the 1s animation ends. The Sb#5 on the other hand, does not interrupt the initiative regen whatsoever and maintains a sound 2x 900 range uses per 12s = 1800 range per 12s, all the while not interrupting the WASD movement of the Thief at all, nor does Shadow Step or Steal.

    Why does it stopping WASD movement matter, exactly? After you use Shortbow 5, no matter how or where you move, your location is locked in. You will always travel 900 units from your original point. Thats 900 units per second. Meanwhile Rush and swoop and whatever all finish their full animation also in a second, and you can move freely instantly. Thats 1200 units per second. Thats more distance covered in the same time. That is all that matters. I get what youre trying to do, muddle the waters to hide important aspects that dismantle your argument, but it doesnt work.

    1. And then this here is just entirely and completely incorrect in every possible way. You said that: "You get both Bird Swoop and Gazelle Charge, actually. You cant swap pets in-combat, but were not looking at in-combat. So thats 1200 on 12 seconds and Swoops 1200 on 18 seconds. Theyre also both about a second." OK so first, we are looking at in-combat because that's what happens in a pvp setting. When you're talking about things chasing each other and running from each other, that's what's happening, people in combat. When a Soulbeast is in combat it can't swap pets. Even if we were talking about out of combat, you are seriously not understanding some things about Ranger here. Again, Soulbeast does not use Swiftness skills. It relies on Beastmastery trait merge for a flat 30% movement speed WHILE MERGED. When you try to swap pets, they go on a 9s CD and during that 9s you do not benefit the 30% movement. Even if you were using Swiftness from the bird when it was unmerged, it only lasts 10s and it takes time to cast. Then when you swap to the Gazelle the pet swap goes on 9s CD and merge will be on a 10s CD after you left bird. So now you swap to Gazelle and you have to stand there and wait for the merge CD to come off timer before you can even get into the Gazelle to use the F2. So theoretically I see what you're trying to argue but it doesn't pan out in the way that you were thinking because of merge timer. In other words, without writing a thesis on this one aspect, you'll make better distance by camping beast mode in Gazelle for the 30% movement baseline and F2 Charge on a 13s cycle. Trying to swap pets and adding in that 9 to 10s buffer to wait to remerge will kill your skill usage cycling & distance.

    Lots to unpack here. Let me just copy the important parts and address them one by one.

    OK so first, we are looking at in-combat because that's what happens in a pvp setting

    No we arent. Were talking about a horizontal race. You dont have a race in-combat. And the original context was about cross-map movement. You know, going to decap and +1? You also do that out of combat. So already youre very wrong.

    Again, Soulbeast does not use Swiftness skills

    Oh, do they now?. Yeah thats a load of kitten. And you use it while merged. And then there are stances or warhorn or whatever.

    1. Then you say: "You get swiftness from owl + your choice between stances, warhorn, or whatever. You hit the max cap all the same." OK first of all, whatever you're referencing is not going to be any faster than any other Soulbeast build aside from some +3% gain in movement from having Swiftness over merge trait. Upon that, using warhorn and stances and owl on a Soulbeast is not a practical build to be using in pvp. You need to be using Longbow and Greatsword, and Smokescale, because when you merge and go into combat you cannot swap pets and you need the Smokescale the most for obvious reasons. So whatever you're referencing here is about as far away as it could get from a realistic build comparison.

    Its not much of a boost, but its a boost. And again, talking out of combat, so you hit the movement speed cap. And sure its not a practical build because you dont care for map movement since you need vertical movement. But in WvW, its actually a build. A version of boonbeast specifically.

    1. Then you start talking about 1hand Sword on a Ranger. Just no. You suggest the idea that someone is going to run Greatsword for Swoop with a 1hand Sword with a Warhorn apparnetly for competitive purposes? Even if they did and even if they were out of combat, that 1hand Sword jump has this weird hampering effect with its animation that hinders the Ranger just enough to where it barely gains any distance at all compared to what the tooltip says. If you're talking a foot race like this, the 600 range on Sword#2 is more like 300 range in terms of distance gained because of the weird animation at the beginning and the pause at the end before the Ranger is allowed to move with WASD afterwards. And upon that man, that build would be terrible in combat regardless of if it was DPS or Bunker, doesn't matter. Those weapon sets would be hot garbage together. The days of old Boonbeast setups have been looooooong gone for awhile now man. Sword/Warhorn/Greatsword would get you jacked up in a hurry if you tried to run it in pvp or wvw.

    That "weird animation" is called a cast time. Its still faster. And sure, as I said, its redundant anyway. Youre ahead. And sure it wouldnt be good for 1v1s or teamfights. But neither is thief, is it? The point is to have a hypothetical thief analogue that can move across the map if they were horizontal.

    1. And then War I'm not going to discuss because it's slower than Ranger and Ranger is slower than Thief, and the same mistakes were made while viewing the breakdown, concerning not taking into account the hampering of movement from animations. A good example on War is GS#3 Whirlwind. That skill has some serious animation hampering. It doesn't boost you ahead nearly as much as the tooltip would make you think. Using a WW alongside of a guy who was just running with Swiftness 33%, would only put you ahead maybe 60-80 range from him, due to how the animation actually works.

    Its slower than ranger, yes. Its faster than thief. I did not make any mistakes. I counted the animation and stated it. It boosts you by exactly as much as I have said.

    At any rate man, the purpose of my comparisons were to use realistic build structures for pvp while being in combat. The purpose was not to point out theoretical weird run builds designed for GW1 Droknar's Forge run. I could do the same thing for Thief, point out of a bunch theoretical options that could improve its movement speed and init gain, ect ect, but that's unrealistic.

    You couldnt. Youre pretty much hitting the cap. Roll for initiative, perhaps, but that barely boosts you, and then youre tapped out. The purpose was to show that in horizontal movement thief is faster than ranger and warrior, and you failed to show that at all, because its not true.

    But just to humour you, what if it was in-combat? Well lets start with warrior. Its easier. 12600 over 16.45 remains the same, its not affected by in combat vs out of combat. So, 23.5 seconds of swiftness movement. Thats 280 units per second. So 23.5*280= 6580. For a total of 19180 units in 40 seconds. To compare, thief has the 7200 over 8. So, 32 seconds of movement. Lets be very generous and assume thief has 50% extra movement speed during the entire 32 seconds (needless to say, he wont). Thats 32*315= 10080. For a total of 17280. Thats almost 2k less. And that was with me being very generous. If we instead assume realistically the thief only has, lets say, 12 seconds of 50% movement, then its only 16580. Almost 3k less. Yeah, pretty rough for the thief, innit?

    You maths are kinda off by a bit
    a) For example you didn't calculate that Thief can use Dash (450 yards yard range) x6times in those 40 sec
    (2 in start + once every 10 sec) .

    So I didnt. Although its 5 times, not 6. 3 at the start, then one every 10 seconds, but you dont start with dash. Thats 750 units. Less far behind, but still behind.

    b) The 50% speed bonus on stealth is translated into 36-37% movement speed in combat

    Well, I did say "its about 10 units or so". 9 to be precise. You throw in about, idk, 110 units. Its still behind.

    c) Combining those 2 , you will get out of combat faster without being him and your 50% out of combat speed in stealth will be fully enabled

    Nah, if you combine those 2 thief still falls behind by a lot.

    and d) if you stealth , he cannot outrun you , because he cannot find you :)

    Thats not how outrunning is defined.

    Yeah it seems both of us haven't played much GW2 :)
    Daredevil has 3 dodges from the start + once per 10 sec . So in total is 7 in 40 sec

    Wait did I mess up my math? Oh its 6. Not 7. You dont start with dash. You start with shortbow 5, since initiative is more important to recharge.

    In an combat race , you start with the more easy available spell , in our case is Dash . Otherwise the delay from switching weapon + use the Arrow can be fatal . You can equip it while on the Dash animation

    Nope, see above.

    The 50% speed bonus on stealth is translated into 36-37% movement speed in combat
    Druids and Warriors with swiftness its 33%

    Percentage is meaningless, you want the real unit. That is a difference of 9 units per second. So after 40 seconds of running, youd barely be at 360. Its not much.

    I pretty sure the Thiefs will get out of combat faster and his 50% speed will be enabled :)

    He wont actually. And this is not what the race is about. And the 50% speed is meaningless, as seen above.

    a) Nope see above , you start with the Dash , you will waste 0,5 sec by equipping the shortbow and till the arrow its traveled .
    Its more scientific acceptable to do that while you are on the Dash animation
    edit: With my method (7 dashes) , i can use 2 Dash to give my resources time to recuperate + travel 900 more yards

    You dont. You dont equip shortbow, and you start with shortbow because initiative is more important of a resource than endurance. Its 1.5 units per second when youre regening endurance, vs 150 per second with shortbow 5. PRetty big.

    b)Its not 9 units .
    Its 3% difference movement increased x 40 sec = the number will be inflating even after that = they will never catch you

    Its literally 9 units per second. Its 391 units per second vs 400 units per second. Its so little its irrelevant.

    c) I pretty sure the Thiefs will get out of combat faster and his 50% speed will be enabled will travel even more distance

    Again, we start out of combat. And again, the speed makes close to no difference.

    a)No sorry , but with your method you will be off by 900 yards less from your goal .
    Try to imagine the first dodge , as a free 450 yard Leap > arrow > dodge .
    With your method and 5 dodges , you will be 900 yard less and your resources will not have time to be restored

    I hate having to repeat myself. The first dodge gives you about 150 units compared to just walking. The first infiltrators arrow gives you 500 units compared to just walking. And initiative is worth more than endurance. So is it now clear why you do not start with a dash? Good.

    b) If we start out of combat , then the Warrior + Druid will be running by 33% vs 50% of you .
    It will be 17% difference in speed/distance x40 sec = 2040 yards and will be increasing by the second

    Out of combat movement speed has a cap. At 400. With swiftness you reach 391 movement speed. So 50% only gains 9 units per seconds. So no, at most its 360 units if you ran 40 seconds with 50% vs someone with 33%. Not 2040 or anywhere close to it.

    Try to think it more rational , you will outrun them both:)
    Or try to stealth and hide them :)

    The one who needs to "think more rational" is the one who doesnt understand basic concepts. Do not make me repeat myself again.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524
    I would bet gold on that too, if it comes to that I bet 300g on tif, if there are any takers.
    If mathematician doesnt kitten out, makes sure to record so we all can have a good laugh, dont be selfish plx.

  • Naqam a.6521Naqam a.6521 Member ✭✭
    edited September 13, 2020

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    @UNOwen.7132 lol you just say things that are wrong man.

    1. Rangers and Warriors do not outpace thief in a horizontal race. I don't understand how you can possibly argue with the breakdown that I presented.

    Because the breakdown you presented is incorrect, leaves out a lot of things.

    1. You said that: "Out of combat, 33% or 50% doesnt make a difference" which is silly because in pvp you're always in combat. Even if we were talking out of combat, the DP Daredevil is still clearly faster. As much can be viewed from the breakdown.

    We were talking about a horizontal race. That does not include in-combat. And if we talk out of combat, Ranger is clearly much faster, as you can see from the corrected breakdown. Oh and fun fact: If we were talking in-combat, warrior actually pulls ahead a lot, because they spend less time just running and more time in movement.

    1. Then you say: "Additionally in order to obtain anything close to permastealth, thief has to slow down a lot. Far more than they get from it. So, not a point." It's not about permastealth, it's about the small stealths like their heal skill, which is 24s CD traited for a 6s +50% movement, or Steal if it is traited to grant stealth with significantly large reduction in CD. Between just the heal and steal, not counting any other sources of stealth, a PD Core or DP dd is essentially getting 9s of +50% movement per 24s. That's something like 40% uptime of +50% movement my dude. So if they cycle the usage wisely, they use the porting during the 15s that the 50% movement is on CD, and run with the 50% movement for 9s while init is building back up. There is an extremely small margin of time where the thief has to WASD with only 33% Swift, very small margin of time. So yeah, that +50% movement from stealth is extremely significant in this breakdown, whether you look at from in combat or out.

    "that's 50% movement on a class that can perma stealth". Quite literally what you wrote. Dont complain that I point out something you say yourself. Its not significant at all, because out of combat 33% and 50% is nearly identical (its a difference of 10 movement speed or so), and in-combat its inferior to spending more time in movement skills (if you want, I can break down in-combat movement as well. Just as a spoiler: Warrior and Ranger are faster).

    1. Shadow Step is 40s when traited in Shadow Arts my dude.

    Ah, right, fair enough.

    1. You said: "Lets put it to 40 seconds, shall we? So, we get at most 1 shadowstep" No you get 2x. You use Shadow Step immediately at the start of the 60s timer, as well as 2x SB#5s. I already pointed this out in the breakdown. You do this early, first skills used, so that they come off CD faster during the 60s timer. My good bro, you get to use Shadow Step twice in the 60s race. And don't worry, I already calculated the rest of the breakdown for Range/War in the same way with their skill usage.

    And even with that, Ranger is ahead. Without even using sword. And no, you didnt. You forgot a lot of things, as I pointed out, and made a lot of wrong assumptions.

    1. Then you go on to say: "Infiltrators arrow is not instant either. Theyre both about a second, but swoop carries you a tiny bit further." again, you're not noticing something important for this comparison. The SB#5 does have an animation time but it DOES NOT stop your WASD movement walking speed while casting it. So the Thief is still moving with WASD while the animation begins, an when it ends it instantly moves him with no interruption to the WASD movement. Swoop and Gazelle F2 or Bull's Charge or Rush, REPLACE all WASD movement and actually cause small pauses to it before and after the animations. A Swoop may be 1000 range but it is on a 10s CD that is effectively an 11s CD because the recharge doesn't begin until the 1s animation ends. The Sb#5 on the other hand, does not interrupt the initiative regen whatsoever and maintains a sound 2x 900 range uses per 12s = 1800 range per 12s, all the while not interrupting the WASD movement of the Thief at all, nor does Shadow Step or Steal.

    Why does it stopping WASD movement matter, exactly? After you use Shortbow 5, no matter how or where you move, your location is locked in. You will always travel 900 units from your original point. Thats 900 units per second. Meanwhile Rush and swoop and whatever all finish their full animation also in a second, and you can move freely instantly. Thats 1200 units per second. Thats more distance covered in the same time. That is all that matters. I get what youre trying to do, muddle the waters to hide important aspects that dismantle your argument, but it doesnt work.

    1. And then this here is just entirely and completely incorrect in every possible way. You said that: "You get both Bird Swoop and Gazelle Charge, actually. You cant swap pets in-combat, but were not looking at in-combat. So thats 1200 on 12 seconds and Swoops 1200 on 18 seconds. Theyre also both about a second." OK so first, we are looking at in-combat because that's what happens in a pvp setting. When you're talking about things chasing each other and running from each other, that's what's happening, people in combat. When a Soulbeast is in combat it can't swap pets. Even if we were talking about out of combat, you are seriously not understanding some things about Ranger here. Again, Soulbeast does not use Swiftness skills. It relies on Beastmastery trait merge for a flat 30% movement speed WHILE MERGED. When you try to swap pets, they go on a 9s CD and during that 9s you do not benefit the 30% movement. Even if you were using Swiftness from the bird when it was unmerged, it only lasts 10s and it takes time to cast. Then when you swap to the Gazelle the pet swap goes on 9s CD and merge will be on a 10s CD after you left bird. So now you swap to Gazelle and you have to stand there and wait for the merge CD to come off timer before you can even get into the Gazelle to use the F2. So theoretically I see what you're trying to argue but it doesn't pan out in the way that you were thinking because of merge timer. In other words, without writing a thesis on this one aspect, you'll make better distance by camping beast mode in Gazelle for the 30% movement baseline and F2 Charge on a 13s cycle. Trying to swap pets and adding in that 9 to 10s buffer to wait to remerge will kill your skill usage cycling & distance.

    Lots to unpack here. Let me just copy the important parts and address them one by one.

    OK so first, we are looking at in-combat because that's what happens in a pvp setting

    No we arent. Were talking about a horizontal race. You dont have a race in-combat. And the original context was about cross-map movement. You know, going to decap and +1? You also do that out of combat. So already youre very wrong.

    Again, Soulbeast does not use Swiftness skills

    Oh, do they now?. Yeah thats a load of kitten. And you use it while merged. And then there are stances or warhorn or whatever.

    1. Then you say: "You get swiftness from owl + your choice between stances, warhorn, or whatever. You hit the max cap all the same." OK first of all, whatever you're referencing is not going to be any faster than any other Soulbeast build aside from some +3% gain in movement from having Swiftness over merge trait. Upon that, using warhorn and stances and owl on a Soulbeast is not a practical build to be using in pvp. You need to be using Longbow and Greatsword, and Smokescale, because when you merge and go into combat you cannot swap pets and you need the Smokescale the most for obvious reasons. So whatever you're referencing here is about as far away as it could get from a realistic build comparison.

    Its not much of a boost, but its a boost. And again, talking out of combat, so you hit the movement speed cap. And sure its not a practical build because you dont care for map movement since you need vertical movement. But in WvW, its actually a build. A version of boonbeast specifically.

    1. Then you start talking about 1hand Sword on a Ranger. Just no. You suggest the idea that someone is going to run Greatsword for Swoop with a 1hand Sword with a Warhorn apparnetly for competitive purposes? Even if they did and even if they were out of combat, that 1hand Sword jump has this weird hampering effect with its animation that hinders the Ranger just enough to where it barely gains any distance at all compared to what the tooltip says. If you're talking a foot race like this, the 600 range on Sword#2 is more like 300 range in terms of distance gained because of the weird animation at the beginning and the pause at the end before the Ranger is allowed to move with WASD afterwards. And upon that man, that build would be terrible in combat regardless of if it was DPS or Bunker, doesn't matter. Those weapon sets would be hot garbage together. The days of old Boonbeast setups have been looooooong gone for awhile now man. Sword/Warhorn/Greatsword would get you jacked up in a hurry if you tried to run it in pvp or wvw.

    That "weird animation" is called a cast time. Its still faster. And sure, as I said, its redundant anyway. Youre ahead. And sure it wouldnt be good for 1v1s or teamfights. But neither is thief, is it? The point is to have a hypothetical thief analogue that can move across the map if they were horizontal.

    1. And then War I'm not going to discuss because it's slower than Ranger and Ranger is slower than Thief, and the same mistakes were made while viewing the breakdown, concerning not taking into account the hampering of movement from animations. A good example on War is GS#3 Whirlwind. That skill has some serious animation hampering. It doesn't boost you ahead nearly as much as the tooltip would make you think. Using a WW alongside of a guy who was just running with Swiftness 33%, would only put you ahead maybe 60-80 range from him, due to how the animation actually works.

    Its slower than ranger, yes. Its faster than thief. I did not make any mistakes. I counted the animation and stated it. It boosts you by exactly as much as I have said.

    At any rate man, the purpose of my comparisons were to use realistic build structures for pvp while being in combat. The purpose was not to point out theoretical weird run builds designed for GW1 Droknar's Forge run. I could do the same thing for Thief, point out of a bunch theoretical options that could improve its movement speed and init gain, ect ect, but that's unrealistic.

    You couldnt. Youre pretty much hitting the cap. Roll for initiative, perhaps, but that barely boosts you, and then youre tapped out. The purpose was to show that in horizontal movement thief is faster than ranger and warrior, and you failed to show that at all, because its not true.

    But just to humour you, what if it was in-combat? Well lets start with warrior. Its easier. 12600 over 16.45 remains the same, its not affected by in combat vs out of combat. So, 23.5 seconds of swiftness movement. Thats 280 units per second. So 23.5*280= 6580. For a total of 19180 units in 40 seconds. To compare, thief has the 7200 over 8. So, 32 seconds of movement. Lets be very generous and assume thief has 50% extra movement speed during the entire 32 seconds (needless to say, he wont). Thats 32*315= 10080. For a total of 17280. Thats almost 2k less. And that was with me being very generous. If we instead assume realistically the thief only has, lets say, 12 seconds of 50% movement, then its only 16580. Almost 3k less. Yeah, pretty rough for the thief, innit?

    You maths are kinda off by a bit
    a) For example you didn't calculate that Thief can use Dash (450 yards yard range) x6times in those 40 sec
    (2 in start + once every 10 sec) .

    So I didnt. Although its 5 times, not 6. 3 at the start, then one every 10 seconds, but you dont start with dash. Thats 750 units. Less far behind, but still behind.

    b) The 50% speed bonus on stealth is translated into 36-37% movement speed in combat

    Well, I did say "its about 10 units or so". 9 to be precise. You throw in about, idk, 110 units. Its still behind.

    c) Combining those 2 , you will get out of combat faster without being him and your 50% out of combat speed in stealth will be fully enabled

    Nah, if you combine those 2 thief still falls behind by a lot.

    and d) if you stealth , he cannot outrun you , because he cannot find you :)

    Thats not how outrunning is defined.

    Yeah it seems both of us haven't played much GW2 :)
    Daredevil has 3 dodges from the start + once per 10 sec . So in total is 7 in 40 sec

    Wait did I mess up my math? Oh its 6. Not 7. You dont start with dash. You start with shortbow 5, since initiative is more important to recharge.

    In an combat race , you start with the more easy available spell , in our case is Dash . Otherwise the delay from switching weapon + use the Arrow can be fatal . You can equip it while on the Dash animation

    Nope, see above.

    The 50% speed bonus on stealth is translated into 36-37% movement speed in combat
    Druids and Warriors with swiftness its 33%

    Percentage is meaningless, you want the real unit. That is a difference of 9 units per second. So after 40 seconds of running, youd barely be at 360. Its not much.

    I pretty sure the Thiefs will get out of combat faster and his 50% speed will be enabled :)

    He wont actually. And this is not what the race is about. And the 50% speed is meaningless, as seen above.

    a) Nope see above , you start with the Dash , you will waste 0,5 sec by equipping the shortbow and till the arrow its traveled .
    Its more scientific acceptable to do that while you are on the Dash animation
    edit: With my method (7 dashes) , i can use 2 Dash to give my resources time to recuperate + travel 900 more yards

    You dont. You dont equip shortbow, and you start with shortbow because initiative is more important of a resource than endurance. Its 1.5 units per second when youre regening endurance, vs 150 per second with shortbow 5. PRetty big.

    b)Its not 9 units .
    Its 3% difference movement increased x 40 sec = the number will be inflating even after that = they will never catch you

    Its literally 9 units per second. Its 391 units per second vs 400 units per second. Its so little its irrelevant.

    c) I pretty sure the Thiefs will get out of combat faster and his 50% speed will be enabled will travel even more distance

    Again, we start out of combat. And again, the speed makes close to no difference.

    a)No sorry , but with your method you will be off by 900 yards less from your goal .
    Try to imagine the first dodge , as a free 450 yard Leap > arrow > dodge .
    With your method and 5 dodges , you will be 900 yard less and your resources will not have time to be restored

    I hate having to repeat myself. The first dodge gives you about 150 units compared to just walking. The first infiltrators arrow gives you 500 units compared to just walking. And initiative is worth more than endurance. So is it now clear why you do not start with a dash? Good.

    b) If we start out of combat , then the Warrior + Druid will be running by 33% vs 50% of you .
    It will be 17% difference in speed/distance x40 sec = 2040 yards and will be increasing by the second

    Out of combat movement speed has a cap. At 400. With swiftness you reach 391 movement speed. So 50% only gains 9 units per seconds. So no, at most its 360 units if you ran 40 seconds with 50% vs someone with 33%. Not 2040 or anywhere close to it.

    Try to think it more rational , you will outrun them both:)
    Or try to stealth and hide them :)

    The one who needs to "think more rational" is the one who doesnt understand basic concepts. Do not make me repeat myself again.

    a)Again you don't really understand .
    Dodge >Arrow > 2x FREE DODGES > arrow > dodges
    With your calculation you will not gain 900 yard extra speed ...

    b) In combat has a cap ...
    Out of combat has not ...
    Out of combat is 50% speed vs 33%
    In combat is 33% vs 36% ( mostly is 28% vs 30-31% and superspeed at 36%)

    1 month

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    @UNOwen.7132 lol you just say things that are wrong man.

    1. Rangers and Warriors do not outpace thief in a horizontal race. I don't understand how you can possibly argue with the breakdown that I presented.

    Because the breakdown you presented is incorrect, leaves out a lot of things.

    1. You said that: "Out of combat, 33% or 50% doesnt make a difference" which is silly because in pvp you're always in combat. Even if we were talking out of combat, the DP Daredevil is still clearly faster. As much can be viewed from the breakdown.

    We were talking about a horizontal race. That does not include in-combat. And if we talk out of combat, Ranger is clearly much faster, as you can see from the corrected breakdown. Oh and fun fact: If we were talking in-combat, warrior actually pulls ahead a lot, because they spend less time just running and more time in movement.

    1. Then you say: "Additionally in order to obtain anything close to permastealth, thief has to slow down a lot. Far more than they get from it. So, not a point." It's not about permastealth, it's about the small stealths like their heal skill, which is 24s CD traited for a 6s +50% movement, or Steal if it is traited to grant stealth with significantly large reduction in CD. Between just the heal and steal, not counting any other sources of stealth, a PD Core or DP dd is essentially getting 9s of +50% movement per 24s. That's something like 40% uptime of +50% movement my dude. So if they cycle the usage wisely, they use the porting during the 15s that the 50% movement is on CD, and run with the 50% movement for 9s while init is building back up. There is an extremely small margin of time where the thief has to WASD with only 33% Swift, very small margin of time. So yeah, that +50% movement from stealth is extremely significant in this breakdown, whether you look at from in combat or out.

    "that's 50% movement on a class that can perma stealth". Quite literally what you wrote. Dont complain that I point out something you say yourself. Its not significant at all, because out of combat 33% and 50% is nearly identical (its a difference of 10 movement speed or so), and in-combat its inferior to spending more time in movement skills (if you want, I can break down in-combat movement as well. Just as a spoiler: Warrior and Ranger are faster).

    1. Shadow Step is 40s when traited in Shadow Arts my dude.

    Ah, right, fair enough.

    1. You said: "Lets put it to 40 seconds, shall we? So, we get at most 1 shadowstep" No you get 2x. You use Shadow Step immediately at the start of the 60s timer, as well as 2x SB#5s. I already pointed this out in the breakdown. You do this early, first skills used, so that they come off CD faster during the 60s timer. My good bro, you get to use Shadow Step twice in the 60s race. And don't worry, I already calculated the rest of the breakdown for Range/War in the same way with their skill usage.

    And even with that, Ranger is ahead. Without even using sword. And no, you didnt. You forgot a lot of things, as I pointed out, and made a lot of wrong assumptions.

    1. Then you go on to say: "Infiltrators arrow is not instant either. Theyre both about a second, but swoop carries you a tiny bit further." again, you're not noticing something important for this comparison. The SB#5 does have an animation time but it DOES NOT stop your WASD movement walking speed while casting it. So the Thief is still moving with WASD while the animation begins, an when it ends it instantly moves him with no interruption to the WASD movement. Swoop and Gazelle F2 or Bull's Charge or Rush, REPLACE all WASD movement and actually cause small pauses to it before and after the animations. A Swoop may be 1000 range but it is on a 10s CD that is effectively an 11s CD because the recharge doesn't begin until the 1s animation ends. The Sb#5 on the other hand, does not interrupt the initiative regen whatsoever and maintains a sound 2x 900 range uses per 12s = 1800 range per 12s, all the while not interrupting the WASD movement of the Thief at all, nor does Shadow Step or Steal.

    Why does it stopping WASD movement matter, exactly? After you use Shortbow 5, no matter how or where you move, your location is locked in. You will always travel 900 units from your original point. Thats 900 units per second. Meanwhile Rush and swoop and whatever all finish their full animation also in a second, and you can move freely instantly. Thats 1200 units per second. Thats more distance covered in the same time. That is all that matters. I get what youre trying to do, muddle the waters to hide important aspects that dismantle your argument, but it doesnt work.

    1. And then this here is just entirely and completely incorrect in every possible way. You said that: "You get both Bird Swoop and Gazelle Charge, actually. You cant swap pets in-combat, but were not looking at in-combat. So thats 1200 on 12 seconds and Swoops 1200 on 18 seconds. Theyre also both about a second." OK so first, we are looking at in-combat because that's what happens in a pvp setting. When you're talking about things chasing each other and running from each other, that's what's happening, people in combat. When a Soulbeast is in combat it can't swap pets. Even if we were talking about out of combat, you are seriously not understanding some things about Ranger here. Again, Soulbeast does not use Swiftness skills. It relies on Beastmastery trait merge for a flat 30% movement speed WHILE MERGED. When you try to swap pets, they go on a 9s CD and during that 9s you do not benefit the 30% movement. Even if you were using Swiftness from the bird when it was unmerged, it only lasts 10s and it takes time to cast. Then when you swap to the Gazelle the pet swap goes on 9s CD and merge will be on a 10s CD after you left bird. So now you swap to Gazelle and you have to stand there and wait for the merge CD to come off timer before you can even get into the Gazelle to use the F2. So theoretically I see what you're trying to argue but it doesn't pan out in the way that you were thinking because of merge timer. In other words, without writing a thesis on this one aspect, you'll make better distance by camping beast mode in Gazelle for the 30% movement baseline and F2 Charge on a 13s cycle. Trying to swap pets and adding in that 9 to 10s buffer to wait to remerge will kill your skill usage cycling & distance.

    Lots to unpack here. Let me just copy the important parts and address them one by one.

    OK so first, we are looking at in-combat because that's what happens in a pvp setting

    No we arent. Were talking about a horizontal race. You dont have a race in-combat. And the original context was about cross-map movement. You know, going to decap and +1? You also do that out of combat. So already youre very wrong.

    Again, Soulbeast does not use Swiftness skills

    Oh, do they now?. Yeah thats a load of kitten. And you use it while merged. And then there are stances or warhorn or whatever.

    1. Then you say: "You get swiftness from owl + your choice between stances, warhorn, or whatever. You hit the max cap all the same." OK first of all, whatever you're referencing is not going to be any faster than any other Soulbeast build aside from some +3% gain in movement from having Swiftness over merge trait. Upon that, using warhorn and stances and owl on a Soulbeast is not a practical build to be using in pvp. You need to be using Longbow and Greatsword, and Smokescale, because when you merge and go into combat you cannot swap pets and you need the Smokescale the most for obvious reasons. So whatever you're referencing here is about as far away as it could get from a realistic build comparison.

    Its not much of a boost, but its a boost. And again, talking out of combat, so you hit the movement speed cap. And sure its not a practical build because you dont care for map movement since you need vertical movement. But in WvW, its actually a build. A version of boonbeast specifically.

    1. Then you start talking about 1hand Sword on a Ranger. Just no. You suggest the idea that someone is going to run Greatsword for Swoop with a 1hand Sword with a Warhorn apparnetly for competitive purposes? Even if they did and even if they were out of combat, that 1hand Sword jump has this weird hampering effect with its animation that hinders the Ranger just enough to where it barely gains any distance at all compared to what the tooltip says. If you're talking a foot race like this, the 600 range on Sword#2 is more like 300 range in terms of distance gained because of the weird animation at the beginning and the pause at the end before the Ranger is allowed to move with WASD afterwards. And upon that man, that build would be terrible in combat regardless of if it was DPS or Bunker, doesn't matter. Those weapon sets would be hot garbage together. The days of old Boonbeast setups have been looooooong gone for awhile now man. Sword/Warhorn/Greatsword would get you jacked up in a hurry if you tried to run it in pvp or wvw.

    That "weird animation" is called a cast time. Its still faster. And sure, as I said, its redundant anyway. Youre ahead. And sure it wouldnt be good for 1v1s or teamfights. But neither is thief, is it? The point is to have a hypothetical thief analogue that can move across the map if they were horizontal.

    1. And then War I'm not going to discuss because it's slower than Ranger and Ranger is slower than Thief, and the same mistakes were made while viewing the breakdown, concerning not taking into account the hampering of movement from animations. A good example on War is GS#3 Whirlwind. That skill has some serious animation hampering. It doesn't boost you ahead nearly as much as the tooltip would make you think. Using a WW alongside of a guy who was just running with Swiftness 33%, would only put you ahead maybe 60-80 range from him, due to how the animation actually works.

    Its slower than ranger, yes. Its faster than thief. I did not make any mistakes. I counted the animation and stated it. It boosts you by exactly as much as I have said.

    At any rate man, the purpose of my comparisons were to use realistic build structures for pvp while being in combat. The purpose was not to point out theoretical weird run builds designed for GW1 Droknar's Forge run. I could do the same thing for Thief, point out of a bunch theoretical options that could improve its movement speed and init gain, ect ect, but that's unrealistic.

    You couldnt. Youre pretty much hitting the cap. Roll for initiative, perhaps, but that barely boosts you, and then youre tapped out. The purpose was to show that in horizontal movement thief is faster than ranger and warrior, and you failed to show that at all, because its not true.

    But just to humour you, what if it was in-combat? Well lets start with warrior. Its easier. 12600 over 16.45 remains the same, its not affected by in combat vs out of combat. So, 23.5 seconds of swiftness movement. Thats 280 units per second. So 23.5*280= 6580. For a total of 19180 units in 40 seconds. To compare, thief has the 7200 over 8. So, 32 seconds of movement. Lets be very generous and assume thief has 50% extra movement speed during the entire 32 seconds (needless to say, he wont). Thats 32*315= 10080. For a total of 17280. Thats almost 2k less. And that was with me being very generous. If we instead assume realistically the thief only has, lets say, 12 seconds of 50% movement, then its only 16580. Almost 3k less. Yeah, pretty rough for the thief, innit?

    You maths are kinda off by a bit
    a) For example you didn't calculate that Thief can use Dash (450 yards yard range) x6times in those 40 sec
    (2 in start + once every 10 sec) .

    So I didnt. Although its 5 times, not 6. 3 at the start, then one every 10 seconds, but you dont start with dash. Thats 750 units. Less far behind, but still behind.

    b) The 50% speed bonus on stealth is translated into 36-37% movement speed in combat

    Well, I did say "its about 10 units or so". 9 to be precise. You throw in about, idk, 110 units. Its still behind.

    c) Combining those 2 , you will get out of combat faster without being him and your 50% out of combat speed in stealth will be fully enabled

    Nah, if you combine those 2 thief still falls behind by a lot.

    and d) if you stealth , he cannot outrun you , because he cannot find you :)

    Thats not how outrunning is defined.

    Yeah it seems both of us haven't played much GW2 :)
    Daredevil has 3 dodges from the start + once per 10 sec . So in total is 7 in 40 sec

    Wait did I mess up my math? Oh its 6. Not 7. You dont start with dash. You start with shortbow 5, since initiative is more important to recharge.

    In an combat race , you start with the more easy available spell , in our case is Dash . Otherwise the delay from switching weapon + use the Arrow can be fatal . You can equip it while on the Dash animation

    Nope, see above.

    The 50% speed bonus on stealth is translated into 36-37% movement speed in combat
    Druids and Warriors with swiftness its 33%

    Percentage is meaningless, you want the real unit. That is a difference of 9 units per second. So after 40 seconds of running, youd barely be at 360. Its not much.

    I pretty sure the Thiefs will get out of combat faster and his 50% speed will be enabled :)

    He wont actually. And this is not what the race is about. And the 50% speed is meaningless, as seen above.

    a) Nope see above , you start with the Dash , you will waste 0,5 sec by equipping the shortbow and till the arrow its traveled .
    Its more scientific acceptable to do that while you are on the Dash animation
    edit: With my method (7 dashes) , i can use 2 Dash to give my resources time to recuperate + travel 900 more yards

    You dont. You dont equip shortbow, and you start with shortbow because initiative is more important of a resource than endurance. Its 1.5 units per second when youre regening endurance, vs 150 per second with shortbow 5. PRetty big.

    b)Its not 9 units .
    Its 3% difference movement increased x 40 sec = the number will be inflating even after that = they will never catch you

    Its literally 9 units per second. Its 391 units per second vs 400 units per second. Its so little its irrelevant.

    c) I pretty sure the Thiefs will get out of combat faster and his 50% speed will be enabled will travel even more distance

    Again, we start out of combat. And again, the speed makes close to no difference.

    a)No sorry , but with your method you will be off by 900 yards less from your goal .
    Try to imagine the first dodge , as a free 450 yard Leap > arrow > dodge .
    With your method and 5 dodges , you will be 900 yard less and your resources will not have time to be restored

    I hate having to repeat myself. The first dodge gives you about 150 units compared to just walking. The first infiltrators arrow gives you 500 units compared to just walking. And initiative is worth more than endurance. So is it now clear why you do not start with a dash? Good.

    b) If we start out of combat , then the Warrior + Druid will be running by 33% vs 50% of you .
    It will be 17% difference in speed/distance x40 sec = 2040 yards and will be increasing by the second

    Out of combat movement speed has a cap. At 400. With swiftness you reach 391 movement speed. So 50% only gains 9 units per seconds. So no, at most its 360 units if you ran 40 seconds with 50% vs someone with 33%. Not 2040 or anywhere close to it.

    Try to think it more rational , you will outrun them both:)
    Or try to stealth and hide them :)

    The one who needs to "think more rational" is the one who doesnt understand basic concepts. Do not make me repeat myself again.

    a)Again you don't really understand .
    Dodge >Arrow > 2x FREE DODGES > arrow > dodges
    With your calculation you will not gain 900 yard extra speed ...

    No I do understand. I understand you do not understand how this works. Let me explain. If you do the order "dodge > Arrow" you lose a total of 350 units at the start, and then another 150 for the second you wasted. On the other hand, if you do "Arrow > dodge", you gain 350 units and gain another 150 by not wasting a second. The latter moves you more.

    b) In combat has a cap ...
    Out of combat has not ...

    Yes it does. Do not argue without understanding the basics.

  • Naqam a.6521Naqam a.6521 Member ✭✭
    edited September 13, 2020

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    @UNOwen.7132 lol you just say things that are wrong man.

    1. Rangers and Warriors do not outpace thief in a horizontal race. I don't understand how you can possibly argue with the breakdown that I presented.

    Because the breakdown you presented is incorrect, leaves out a lot of things.

    1. You said that: "Out of combat, 33% or 50% doesnt make a difference" which is silly because in pvp you're always in combat. Even if we were talking out of combat, the DP Daredevil is still clearly faster. As much can be viewed from the breakdown.

    We were talking about a horizontal race. That does not include in-combat. And if we talk out of combat, Ranger is clearly much faster, as you can see from the corrected breakdown. Oh and fun fact: If we were talking in-combat, warrior actually pulls ahead a lot, because they spend less time just running and more time in movement.

    1. Then you say: "Additionally in order to obtain anything close to permastealth, thief has to slow down a lot. Far more than they get from it. So, not a point." It's not about permastealth, it's about the small stealths like their heal skill, which is 24s CD traited for a 6s +50% movement, or Steal if it is traited to grant stealth with significantly large reduction in CD. Between just the heal and steal, not counting any other sources of stealth, a PD Core or DP dd is essentially getting 9s of +50% movement per 24s. That's something like 40% uptime of +50% movement my dude. So if they cycle the usage wisely, they use the porting during the 15s that the 50% movement is on CD, and run with the 50% movement for 9s while init is building back up. There is an extremely small margin of time where the thief has to WASD with only 33% Swift, very small margin of time. So yeah, that +50% movement from stealth is extremely significant in this breakdown, whether you look at from in combat or out.

    "that's 50% movement on a class that can perma stealth". Quite literally what you wrote. Dont complain that I point out something you say yourself. Its not significant at all, because out of combat 33% and 50% is nearly identical (its a difference of 10 movement speed or so), and in-combat its inferior to spending more time in movement skills (if you want, I can break down in-combat movement as well. Just as a spoiler: Warrior and Ranger are faster).

    1. Shadow Step is 40s when traited in Shadow Arts my dude.

    Ah, right, fair enough.

    1. You said: "Lets put it to 40 seconds, shall we? So, we get at most 1 shadowstep" No you get 2x. You use Shadow Step immediately at the start of the 60s timer, as well as 2x SB#5s. I already pointed this out in the breakdown. You do this early, first skills used, so that they come off CD faster during the 60s timer. My good bro, you get to use Shadow Step twice in the 60s race. And don't worry, I already calculated the rest of the breakdown for Range/War in the same way with their skill usage.

    And even with that, Ranger is ahead. Without even using sword. And no, you didnt. You forgot a lot of things, as I pointed out, and made a lot of wrong assumptions.

    1. Then you go on to say: "Infiltrators arrow is not instant either. Theyre both about a second, but swoop carries you a tiny bit further." again, you're not noticing something important for this comparison. The SB#5 does have an animation time but it DOES NOT stop your WASD movement walking speed while casting it. So the Thief is still moving with WASD while the animation begins, an when it ends it instantly moves him with no interruption to the WASD movement. Swoop and Gazelle F2 or Bull's Charge or Rush, REPLACE all WASD movement and actually cause small pauses to it before and after the animations. A Swoop may be 1000 range but it is on a 10s CD that is effectively an 11s CD because the recharge doesn't begin until the 1s animation ends. The Sb#5 on the other hand, does not interrupt the initiative regen whatsoever and maintains a sound 2x 900 range uses per 12s = 1800 range per 12s, all the while not interrupting the WASD movement of the Thief at all, nor does Shadow Step or Steal.

    Why does it stopping WASD movement matter, exactly? After you use Shortbow 5, no matter how or where you move, your location is locked in. You will always travel 900 units from your original point. Thats 900 units per second. Meanwhile Rush and swoop and whatever all finish their full animation also in a second, and you can move freely instantly. Thats 1200 units per second. Thats more distance covered in the same time. That is all that matters. I get what youre trying to do, muddle the waters to hide important aspects that dismantle your argument, but it doesnt work.

    1. And then this here is just entirely and completely incorrect in every possible way. You said that: "You get both Bird Swoop and Gazelle Charge, actually. You cant swap pets in-combat, but were not looking at in-combat. So thats 1200 on 12 seconds and Swoops 1200 on 18 seconds. Theyre also both about a second." OK so first, we are looking at in-combat because that's what happens in a pvp setting. When you're talking about things chasing each other and running from each other, that's what's happening, people in combat. When a Soulbeast is in combat it can't swap pets. Even if we were talking about out of combat, you are seriously not understanding some things about Ranger here. Again, Soulbeast does not use Swiftness skills. It relies on Beastmastery trait merge for a flat 30% movement speed WHILE MERGED. When you try to swap pets, they go on a 9s CD and during that 9s you do not benefit the 30% movement. Even if you were using Swiftness from the bird when it was unmerged, it only lasts 10s and it takes time to cast. Then when you swap to the Gazelle the pet swap goes on 9s CD and merge will be on a 10s CD after you left bird. So now you swap to Gazelle and you have to stand there and wait for the merge CD to come off timer before you can even get into the Gazelle to use the F2. So theoretically I see what you're trying to argue but it doesn't pan out in the way that you were thinking because of merge timer. In other words, without writing a thesis on this one aspect, you'll make better distance by camping beast mode in Gazelle for the 30% movement baseline and F2 Charge on a 13s cycle. Trying to swap pets and adding in that 9 to 10s buffer to wait to remerge will kill your skill usage cycling & distance.

    Lots to unpack here. Let me just copy the important parts and address them one by one.

    OK so first, we are looking at in-combat because that's what happens in a pvp setting

    No we arent. Were talking about a horizontal race. You dont have a race in-combat. And the original context was about cross-map movement. You know, going to decap and +1? You also do that out of combat. So already youre very wrong.

    Again, Soulbeast does not use Swiftness skills

    Oh, do they now?. Yeah thats a load of kitten. And you use it while merged. And then there are stances or warhorn or whatever.

    1. Then you say: "You get swiftness from owl + your choice between stances, warhorn, or whatever. You hit the max cap all the same." OK first of all, whatever you're referencing is not going to be any faster than any other Soulbeast build aside from some +3% gain in movement from having Swiftness over merge trait. Upon that, using warhorn and stances and owl on a Soulbeast is not a practical build to be using in pvp. You need to be using Longbow and Greatsword, and Smokescale, because when you merge and go into combat you cannot swap pets and you need the Smokescale the most for obvious reasons. So whatever you're referencing here is about as far away as it could get from a realistic build comparison.

    Its not much of a boost, but its a boost. And again, talking out of combat, so you hit the movement speed cap. And sure its not a practical build because you dont care for map movement since you need vertical movement. But in WvW, its actually a build. A version of boonbeast specifically.

    1. Then you start talking about 1hand Sword on a Ranger. Just no. You suggest the idea that someone is going to run Greatsword for Swoop with a 1hand Sword with a Warhorn apparnetly for competitive purposes? Even if they did and even if they were out of combat, that 1hand Sword jump has this weird hampering effect with its animation that hinders the Ranger just enough to where it barely gains any distance at all compared to what the tooltip says. If you're talking a foot race like this, the 600 range on Sword#2 is more like 300 range in terms of distance gained because of the weird animation at the beginning and the pause at the end before the Ranger is allowed to move with WASD afterwards. And upon that man, that build would be terrible in combat regardless of if it was DPS or Bunker, doesn't matter. Those weapon sets would be hot garbage together. The days of old Boonbeast setups have been looooooong gone for awhile now man. Sword/Warhorn/Greatsword would get you jacked up in a hurry if you tried to run it in pvp or wvw.

    That "weird animation" is called a cast time. Its still faster. And sure, as I said, its redundant anyway. Youre ahead. And sure it wouldnt be good for 1v1s or teamfights. But neither is thief, is it? The point is to have a hypothetical thief analogue that can move across the map if they were horizontal.

    1. And then War I'm not going to discuss because it's slower than Ranger and Ranger is slower than Thief, and the same mistakes were made while viewing the breakdown, concerning not taking into account the hampering of movement from animations. A good example on War is GS#3 Whirlwind. That skill has some serious animation hampering. It doesn't boost you ahead nearly as much as the tooltip would make you think. Using a WW alongside of a guy who was just running with Swiftness 33%, would only put you ahead maybe 60-80 range from him, due to how the animation actually works.

    Its slower than ranger, yes. Its faster than thief. I did not make any mistakes. I counted the animation and stated it. It boosts you by exactly as much as I have said.

    At any rate man, the purpose of my comparisons were to use realistic build structures for pvp while being in combat. The purpose was not to point out theoretical weird run builds designed for GW1 Droknar's Forge run. I could do the same thing for Thief, point out of a bunch theoretical options that could improve its movement speed and init gain, ect ect, but that's unrealistic.

    You couldnt. Youre pretty much hitting the cap. Roll for initiative, perhaps, but that barely boosts you, and then youre tapped out. The purpose was to show that in horizontal movement thief is faster than ranger and warrior, and you failed to show that at all, because its not true.

    But just to humour you, what if it was in-combat? Well lets start with warrior. Its easier. 12600 over 16.45 remains the same, its not affected by in combat vs out of combat. So, 23.5 seconds of swiftness movement. Thats 280 units per second. So 23.5*280= 6580. For a total of 19180 units in 40 seconds. To compare, thief has the 7200 over 8. So, 32 seconds of movement. Lets be very generous and assume thief has 50% extra movement speed during the entire 32 seconds (needless to say, he wont). Thats 32*315= 10080. For a total of 17280. Thats almost 2k less. And that was with me being very generous. If we instead assume realistically the thief only has, lets say, 12 seconds of 50% movement, then its only 16580. Almost 3k less. Yeah, pretty rough for the thief, innit?

    You maths are kinda off by a bit
    a) For example you didn't calculate that Thief can use Dash (450 yards yard range) x6times in those 40 sec
    (2 in start + once every 10 sec) .

    So I didnt. Although its 5 times, not 6. 3 at the start, then one every 10 seconds, but you dont start with dash. Thats 750 units. Less far behind, but still behind.

    b) The 50% speed bonus on stealth is translated into 36-37% movement speed in combat

    Well, I did say "its about 10 units or so". 9 to be precise. You throw in about, idk, 110 units. Its still behind.

    c) Combining those 2 , you will get out of combat faster without being him and your 50% out of combat speed in stealth will be fully enabled

    Nah, if you combine those 2 thief still falls behind by a lot.

    and d) if you stealth , he cannot outrun you , because he cannot find you :)

    Thats not how outrunning is defined.

    Yeah it seems both of us haven't played much GW2 :)
    Daredevil has 3 dodges from the start + once per 10 sec . So in total is 7 in 40 sec

    Wait did I mess up my math? Oh its 6. Not 7. You dont start with dash. You start with shortbow 5, since initiative is more important to recharge.

    In an combat race , you start with the more easy available spell , in our case is Dash . Otherwise the delay from switching weapon + use the Arrow can be fatal . You can equip it while on the Dash animation

    Nope, see above.

    The 50% speed bonus on stealth is translated into 36-37% movement speed in combat
    Druids and Warriors with swiftness its 33%

    Percentage is meaningless, you want the real unit. That is a difference of 9 units per second. So after 40 seconds of running, youd barely be at 360. Its not much.

    I pretty sure the Thiefs will get out of combat faster and his 50% speed will be enabled :)

    He wont actually. And this is not what the race is about. And the 50% speed is meaningless, as seen above.

    a) Nope see above , you start with the Dash , you will waste 0,5 sec by equipping the shortbow and till the arrow its traveled .
    Its more scientific acceptable to do that while you are on the Dash animation
    edit: With my method (7 dashes) , i can use 2 Dash to give my resources time to recuperate + travel 900 more yards

    You dont. You dont equip shortbow, and you start with shortbow because initiative is more important of a resource than endurance. Its 1.5 units per second when youre regening endurance, vs 150 per second with shortbow 5. PRetty big.

    b)Its not 9 units .
    Its 3% difference movement increased x 40 sec = the number will be inflating even after that = they will never catch you

    Its literally 9 units per second. Its 391 units per second vs 400 units per second. Its so little its irrelevant.

    c) I pretty sure the Thiefs will get out of combat faster and his 50% speed will be enabled will travel even more distance

    Again, we start out of combat. And again, the speed makes close to no difference.

    a)No sorry , but with your method you will be off by 900 yards less from your goal .
    Try to imagine the first dodge , as a free 450 yard Leap > arrow > dodge .
    With your method and 5 dodges , you will be 900 yard less and your resources will not have time to be restored

    I hate having to repeat myself. The first dodge gives you about 150 units compared to just walking. The first infiltrators arrow gives you 500 units compared to just walking. And initiative is worth more than endurance. So is it now clear why you do not start with a dash? Good.

    b) If we start out of combat , then the Warrior + Druid will be running by 33% vs 50% of you .
    It will be 17% difference in speed/distance x40 sec = 2040 yards and will be increasing by the second

    Out of combat movement speed has a cap. At 400. With swiftness you reach 391 movement speed. So 50% only gains 9 units per seconds. So no, at most its 360 units if you ran 40 seconds with 50% vs someone with 33%. Not 2040 or anywhere close to it.

    Try to think it more rational , you will outrun them both:)
    Or try to stealth and hide them :)

    The one who needs to "think more rational" is the one who doesnt understand basic concepts. Do not make me repeat myself again.

    a)Again you don't really understand .
    Dodge >Arrow > 2x FREE DODGES > arrow > dodges
    With your calculation you will not gain 900 yard extra speed ...

    No I do understand. I understand you do not understand how this works. Let me explain. If you do the order "dodge > Arrow" you lose a total of 350 units at the start, and then another 150 for the second you wasted. On the other hand, if you do "Arrow > dodge", you gain 350 units and gain another 150 by not wasting a second. The latter moves you more.

    b) In combat has a cap ...
    Out of combat has not ...

    Yes it does. Do not argue without understanding the basics.

    a)Again read the basic too ...
    Swiftness doesn't put near the 400 cap
    Dont try to say something that you don't really understand

    b) its free 2x dodges
    Its free 900 yards
    Dodge >Arrow > 2x FREE DODGES > arrow > dodges

    With you method , you will run out resources faster...

    1 month

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    @UNOwen.7132 lol you just say things that are wrong man.

    1. Rangers and Warriors do not outpace thief in a horizontal race. I don't understand how you can possibly argue with the breakdown that I presented.

    Because the breakdown you presented is incorrect, leaves out a lot of things.

    1. You said that: "Out of combat, 33% or 50% doesnt make a difference" which is silly because in pvp you're always in combat. Even if we were talking out of combat, the DP Daredevil is still clearly faster. As much can be viewed from the breakdown.

    We were talking about a horizontal race. That does not include in-combat. And if we talk out of combat, Ranger is clearly much faster, as you can see from the corrected breakdown. Oh and fun fact: If we were talking in-combat, warrior actually pulls ahead a lot, because they spend less time just running and more time in movement.

    1. Then you say: "Additionally in order to obtain anything close to permastealth, thief has to slow down a lot. Far more than they get from it. So, not a point." It's not about permastealth, it's about the small stealths like their heal skill, which is 24s CD traited for a 6s +50% movement, or Steal if it is traited to grant stealth with significantly large reduction in CD. Between just the heal and steal, not counting any other sources of stealth, a PD Core or DP dd is essentially getting 9s of +50% movement per 24s. That's something like 40% uptime of +50% movement my dude. So if they cycle the usage wisely, they use the porting during the 15s that the 50% movement is on CD, and run with the 50% movement for 9s while init is building back up. There is an extremely small margin of time where the thief has to WASD with only 33% Swift, very small margin of time. So yeah, that +50% movement from stealth is extremely significant in this breakdown, whether you look at from in combat or out.

    "that's 50% movement on a class that can perma stealth". Quite literally what you wrote. Dont complain that I point out something you say yourself. Its not significant at all, because out of combat 33% and 50% is nearly identical (its a difference of 10 movement speed or so), and in-combat its inferior to spending more time in movement skills (if you want, I can break down in-combat movement as well. Just as a spoiler: Warrior and Ranger are faster).

    1. Shadow Step is 40s when traited in Shadow Arts my dude.

    Ah, right, fair enough.

    1. You said: "Lets put it to 40 seconds, shall we? So, we get at most 1 shadowstep" No you get 2x. You use Shadow Step immediately at the start of the 60s timer, as well as 2x SB#5s. I already pointed this out in the breakdown. You do this early, first skills used, so that they come off CD faster during the 60s timer. My good bro, you get to use Shadow Step twice in the 60s race. And don't worry, I already calculated the rest of the breakdown for Range/War in the same way with their skill usage.

    And even with that, Ranger is ahead. Without even using sword. And no, you didnt. You forgot a lot of things, as I pointed out, and made a lot of wrong assumptions.

    1. Then you go on to say: "Infiltrators arrow is not instant either. Theyre both about a second, but swoop carries you a tiny bit further." again, you're not noticing something important for this comparison. The SB#5 does have an animation time but it DOES NOT stop your WASD movement walking speed while casting it. So the Thief is still moving with WASD while the animation begins, an when it ends it instantly moves him with no interruption to the WASD movement. Swoop and Gazelle F2 or Bull's Charge or Rush, REPLACE all WASD movement and actually cause small pauses to it before and after the animations. A Swoop may be 1000 range but it is on a 10s CD that is effectively an 11s CD because the recharge doesn't begin until the 1s animation ends. The Sb#5 on the other hand, does not interrupt the initiative regen whatsoever and maintains a sound 2x 900 range uses per 12s = 1800 range per 12s, all the while not interrupting the WASD movement of the Thief at all, nor does Shadow Step or Steal.

    Why does it stopping WASD movement matter, exactly? After you use Shortbow 5, no matter how or where you move, your location is locked in. You will always travel 900 units from your original point. Thats 900 units per second. Meanwhile Rush and swoop and whatever all finish their full animation also in a second, and you can move freely instantly. Thats 1200 units per second. Thats more distance covered in the same time. That is all that matters. I get what youre trying to do, muddle the waters to hide important aspects that dismantle your argument, but it doesnt work.

    1. And then this here is just entirely and completely incorrect in every possible way. You said that: "You get both Bird Swoop and Gazelle Charge, actually. You cant swap pets in-combat, but were not looking at in-combat. So thats 1200 on 12 seconds and Swoops 1200 on 18 seconds. Theyre also both about a second." OK so first, we are looking at in-combat because that's what happens in a pvp setting. When you're talking about things chasing each other and running from each other, that's what's happening, people in combat. When a Soulbeast is in combat it can't swap pets. Even if we were talking about out of combat, you are seriously not understanding some things about Ranger here. Again, Soulbeast does not use Swiftness skills. It relies on Beastmastery trait merge for a flat 30% movement speed WHILE MERGED. When you try to swap pets, they go on a 9s CD and during that 9s you do not benefit the 30% movement. Even if you were using Swiftness from the bird when it was unmerged, it only lasts 10s and it takes time to cast. Then when you swap to the Gazelle the pet swap goes on 9s CD and merge will be on a 10s CD after you left bird. So now you swap to Gazelle and you have to stand there and wait for the merge CD to come off timer before you can even get into the Gazelle to use the F2. So theoretically I see what you're trying to argue but it doesn't pan out in the way that you were thinking because of merge timer. In other words, without writing a thesis on this one aspect, you'll make better distance by camping beast mode in Gazelle for the 30% movement baseline and F2 Charge on a 13s cycle. Trying to swap pets and adding in that 9 to 10s buffer to wait to remerge will kill your skill usage cycling & distance.

    Lots to unpack here. Let me just copy the important parts and address them one by one.

    OK so first, we are looking at in-combat because that's what happens in a pvp setting

    No we arent. Were talking about a horizontal race. You dont have a race in-combat. And the original context was about cross-map movement. You know, going to decap and +1? You also do that out of combat. So already youre very wrong.

    Again, Soulbeast does not use Swiftness skills

    Oh, do they now?. Yeah thats a load of kitten. And you use it while merged. And then there are stances or warhorn or whatever.

    1. Then you say: "You get swiftness from owl + your choice between stances, warhorn, or whatever. You hit the max cap all the same." OK first of all, whatever you're referencing is not going to be any faster than any other Soulbeast build aside from some +3% gain in movement from having Swiftness over merge trait. Upon that, using warhorn and stances and owl on a Soulbeast is not a practical build to be using in pvp. You need to be using Longbow and Greatsword, and Smokescale, because when you merge and go into combat you cannot swap pets and you need the Smokescale the most for obvious reasons. So whatever you're referencing here is about as far away as it could get from a realistic build comparison.

    Its not much of a boost, but its a boost. And again, talking out of combat, so you hit the movement speed cap. And sure its not a practical build because you dont care for map movement since you need vertical movement. But in WvW, its actually a build. A version of boonbeast specifically.

    1. Then you start talking about 1hand Sword on a Ranger. Just no. You suggest the idea that someone is going to run Greatsword for Swoop with a 1hand Sword with a Warhorn apparnetly for competitive purposes? Even if they did and even if they were out of combat, that 1hand Sword jump has this weird hampering effect with its animation that hinders the Ranger just enough to where it barely gains any distance at all compared to what the tooltip says. If you're talking a foot race like this, the 600 range on Sword#2 is more like 300 range in terms of distance gained because of the weird animation at the beginning and the pause at the end before the Ranger is allowed to move with WASD afterwards. And upon that man, that build would be terrible in combat regardless of if it was DPS or Bunker, doesn't matter. Those weapon sets would be hot garbage together. The days of old Boonbeast setups have been looooooong gone for awhile now man. Sword/Warhorn/Greatsword would get you jacked up in a hurry if you tried to run it in pvp or wvw.

    That "weird animation" is called a cast time. Its still faster. And sure, as I said, its redundant anyway. Youre ahead. And sure it wouldnt be good for 1v1s or teamfights. But neither is thief, is it? The point is to have a hypothetical thief analogue that can move across the map if they were horizontal.

    1. And then War I'm not going to discuss because it's slower than Ranger and Ranger is slower than Thief, and the same mistakes were made while viewing the breakdown, concerning not taking into account the hampering of movement from animations. A good example on War is GS#3 Whirlwind. That skill has some serious animation hampering. It doesn't boost you ahead nearly as much as the tooltip would make you think. Using a WW alongside of a guy who was just running with Swiftness 33%, would only put you ahead maybe 60-80 range from him, due to how the animation actually works.

    Its slower than ranger, yes. Its faster than thief. I did not make any mistakes. I counted the animation and stated it. It boosts you by exactly as much as I have said.

    At any rate man, the purpose of my comparisons were to use realistic build structures for pvp while being in combat. The purpose was not to point out theoretical weird run builds designed for GW1 Droknar's Forge run. I could do the same thing for Thief, point out of a bunch theoretical options that could improve its movement speed and init gain, ect ect, but that's unrealistic.

    You couldnt. Youre pretty much hitting the cap. Roll for initiative, perhaps, but that barely boosts you, and then youre tapped out. The purpose was to show that in horizontal movement thief is faster than ranger and warrior, and you failed to show that at all, because its not true.

    But just to humour you, what if it was in-combat? Well lets start with warrior. Its easier. 12600 over 16.45 remains the same, its not affected by in combat vs out of combat. So, 23.5 seconds of swiftness movement. Thats 280 units per second. So 23.5*280= 6580. For a total of 19180 units in 40 seconds. To compare, thief has the 7200 over 8. So, 32 seconds of movement. Lets be very generous and assume thief has 50% extra movement speed during the entire 32 seconds (needless to say, he wont). Thats 32*315= 10080. For a total of 17280. Thats almost 2k less. And that was with me being very generous. If we instead assume realistically the thief only has, lets say, 12 seconds of 50% movement, then its only 16580. Almost 3k less. Yeah, pretty rough for the thief, innit?

    You maths are kinda off by a bit
    a) For example you didn't calculate that Thief can use Dash (450 yards yard range) x6times in those 40 sec
    (2 in start + once every 10 sec) .

    So I didnt. Although its 5 times, not 6. 3 at the start, then one every 10 seconds, but you dont start with dash. Thats 750 units. Less far behind, but still behind.

    b) The 50% speed bonus on stealth is translated into 36-37% movement speed in combat

    Well, I did say "its about 10 units or so". 9 to be precise. You throw in about, idk, 110 units. Its still behind.

    c) Combining those 2 , you will get out of combat faster without being him and your 50% out of combat speed in stealth will be fully enabled

    Nah, if you combine those 2 thief still falls behind by a lot.

    and d) if you stealth , he cannot outrun you , because he cannot find you :)

    Thats not how outrunning is defined.

    Yeah it seems both of us haven't played much GW2 :)
    Daredevil has 3 dodges from the start + once per 10 sec . So in total is 7 in 40 sec

    Wait did I mess up my math? Oh its 6. Not 7. You dont start with dash. You start with shortbow 5, since initiative is more important to recharge.

    In an combat race , you start with the more easy available spell , in our case is Dash . Otherwise the delay from switching weapon + use the Arrow can be fatal . You can equip it while on the Dash animation

    Nope, see above.

    The 50% speed bonus on stealth is translated into 36-37% movement speed in combat
    Druids and Warriors with swiftness its 33%

    Percentage is meaningless, you want the real unit. That is a difference of 9 units per second. So after 40 seconds of running, youd barely be at 360. Its not much.

    I pretty sure the Thiefs will get out of combat faster and his 50% speed will be enabled :)

    He wont actually. And this is not what the race is about. And the 50% speed is meaningless, as seen above.

    a) Nope see above , you start with the Dash , you will waste 0,5 sec by equipping the shortbow and till the arrow its traveled .
    Its more scientific acceptable to do that while you are on the Dash animation
    edit: With my method (7 dashes) , i can use 2 Dash to give my resources time to recuperate + travel 900 more yards

    You dont. You dont equip shortbow, and you start with shortbow because initiative is more important of a resource than endurance. Its 1.5 units per second when youre regening endurance, vs 150 per second with shortbow 5. PRetty big.

    b)Its not 9 units .
    Its 3% difference movement increased x 40 sec = the number will be inflating even after that = they will never catch you

    Its literally 9 units per second. Its 391 units per second vs 400 units per second. Its so little its irrelevant.

    c) I pretty sure the Thiefs will get out of combat faster and his 50% speed will be enabled will travel even more distance

    Again, we start out of combat. And again, the speed makes close to no difference.

    a)No sorry , but with your method you will be off by 900 yards less from your goal .
    Try to imagine the first dodge , as a free 450 yard Leap > arrow > dodge .
    With your method and 5 dodges , you will be 900 yard less and your resources will not have time to be restored

    I hate having to repeat myself. The first dodge gives you about 150 units compared to just walking. The first infiltrators arrow gives you 500 units compared to just walking. And initiative is worth more than endurance. So is it now clear why you do not start with a dash? Good.

    b) If we start out of combat , then the Warrior + Druid will be running by 33% vs 50% of you .
    It will be 17% difference in speed/distance x40 sec = 2040 yards and will be increasing by the second

    Out of combat movement speed has a cap. At 400. With swiftness you reach 391 movement speed. So 50% only gains 9 units per seconds. So no, at most its 360 units if you ran 40 seconds with 50% vs someone with 33%. Not 2040 or anywhere close to it.

    Try to think it more rational , you will outrun them both:)
    Or try to stealth and hide them :)

    The one who needs to "think more rational" is the one who doesnt understand basic concepts. Do not make me repeat myself again.

    a)Again you don't really understand .
    Dodge >Arrow > 2x FREE DODGES > arrow > dodges
    With your calculation you will not gain 900 yard extra speed ...

    No I do understand. I understand you do not understand how this works. Let me explain. If you do the order "dodge > Arrow" you lose a total of 350 units at the start, and then another 150 for the second you wasted. On the other hand, if you do "Arrow > dodge", you gain 350 units and gain another 150 by not wasting a second. The latter moves you more.

    b) In combat has a cap ...
    Out of combat has not ...

    Yes it does. Do not argue without understanding the basics.

    a)Again read the basic too ...
    Swiftness doesn't put near the 400 cap
    Dont try to say something that you don't really understand

    You really are making me repeat myself? Ugh. So, lets do the math. Swiftness is 33% speedboost. You start with 294 base movement speed out of combat. 294*1.33= 391. The cap is 400. So you are literally just 9 units below cap. Thats 9 units per second. Got it now?

    b) its free 2x dodges
    Its free 900 yards
    Dodge >Arrow > 2x FREE DODGES > arrow > dodges

    No its not? You dont get anything. You just start regenerating endurance 1 second faster. Like, what if I instead use arrow, then dodge thrice, then arrow again? I gain distance. Simple, isnt it?

    With you method , you will run out resources faster...

    ... no? You start regenerating resources faster with my method.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @Trevor Boyer.6524
    I would bet gold on that too, if it comes to that I bet 300g on tif, if there are any takers.
    If mathematician doesnt kitten out, makes sure to record so we all can have a good laugh, dont be selfish plx.

    Then bet on it between each other, test it correctly, and pay your 300 gold to whoever decided to take advantage of some suckers going for a bet thats already lost. But dont try to drag me into this waste of time. The last time I proved someone wrong they just decided to act like it never happened.

  • Naqam a.6521Naqam a.6521 Member ✭✭
    edited September 13, 2020

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    @UNOwen.7132 lol you just say things that are wrong man.

    1. Rangers and Warriors do not outpace thief in a horizontal race. I don't understand how you can possibly argue with the breakdown that I presented.

    Because the breakdown you presented is incorrect, leaves out a lot of things.

    1. You said that: "Out of combat, 33% or 50% doesnt make a difference" which is silly because in pvp you're always in combat. Even if we were talking out of combat, the DP Daredevil is still clearly faster. As much can be viewed from the breakdown.

    We were talking about a horizontal race. That does not include in-combat. And if we talk out of combat, Ranger is clearly much faster, as you can see from the corrected breakdown. Oh and fun fact: If we were talking in-combat, warrior actually pulls ahead a lot, because they spend less time just running and more time in movement.

    1. Then you say: "Additionally in order to obtain anything close to permastealth, thief has to slow down a lot. Far more than they get from it. So, not a point." It's not about permastealth, it's about the small stealths like their heal skill, which is 24s CD traited for a 6s +50% movement, or Steal if it is traited to grant stealth with significantly large reduction in CD. Between just the heal and steal, not counting any other sources of stealth, a PD Core or DP dd is essentially getting 9s of +50% movement per 24s. That's something like 40% uptime of +50% movement my dude. So if they cycle the usage wisely, they use the porting during the 15s that the 50% movement is on CD, and run with the 50% movement for 9s while init is building back up. There is an extremely small margin of time where the thief has to WASD with only 33% Swift, very small margin of time. So yeah, that +50% movement from stealth is extremely significant in this breakdown, whether you look at from in combat or out.

    "that's 50% movement on a class that can perma stealth". Quite literally what you wrote. Dont complain that I point out something you say yourself. Its not significant at all, because out of combat 33% and 50% is nearly identical (its a difference of 10 movement speed or so), and in-combat its inferior to spending more time in movement skills (if you want, I can break down in-combat movement as well. Just as a spoiler: Warrior and Ranger are faster).

    1. Shadow Step is 40s when traited in Shadow Arts my dude.

    Ah, right, fair enough.

    1. You said: "Lets put it to 40 seconds, shall we? So, we get at most 1 shadowstep" No you get 2x. You use Shadow Step immediately at the start of the 60s timer, as well as 2x SB#5s. I already pointed this out in the breakdown. You do this early, first skills used, so that they come off CD faster during the 60s timer. My good bro, you get to use Shadow Step twice in the 60s race. And don't worry, I already calculated the rest of the breakdown for Range/War in the same way with their skill usage.

    And even with that, Ranger is ahead. Without even using sword. And no, you didnt. You forgot a lot of things, as I pointed out, and made a lot of wrong assumptions.

    1. Then you go on to say: "Infiltrators arrow is not instant either. Theyre both about a second, but swoop carries you a tiny bit further." again, you're not noticing something important for this comparison. The SB#5 does have an animation time but it DOES NOT stop your WASD movement walking speed while casting it. So the Thief is still moving with WASD while the animation begins, an when it ends it instantly moves him with no interruption to the WASD movement. Swoop and Gazelle F2 or Bull's Charge or Rush, REPLACE all WASD movement and actually cause small pauses to it before and after the animations. A Swoop may be 1000 range but it is on a 10s CD that is effectively an 11s CD because the recharge doesn't begin until the 1s animation ends. The Sb#5 on the other hand, does not interrupt the initiative regen whatsoever and maintains a sound 2x 900 range uses per 12s = 1800 range per 12s, all the while not interrupting the WASD movement of the Thief at all, nor does Shadow Step or Steal.

    Why does it stopping WASD movement matter, exactly? After you use Shortbow 5, no matter how or where you move, your location is locked in. You will always travel 900 units from your original point. Thats 900 units per second. Meanwhile Rush and swoop and whatever all finish their full animation also in a second, and you can move freely instantly. Thats 1200 units per second. Thats more distance covered in the same time. That is all that matters. I get what youre trying to do, muddle the waters to hide important aspects that dismantle your argument, but it doesnt work.

    1. And then this here is just entirely and completely incorrect in every possible way. You said that: "You get both Bird Swoop and Gazelle Charge, actually. You cant swap pets in-combat, but were not looking at in-combat. So thats 1200 on 12 seconds and Swoops 1200 on 18 seconds. Theyre also both about a second." OK so first, we are looking at in-combat because that's what happens in a pvp setting. When you're talking about things chasing each other and running from each other, that's what's happening, people in combat. When a Soulbeast is in combat it can't swap pets. Even if we were talking about out of combat, you are seriously not understanding some things about Ranger here. Again, Soulbeast does not use Swiftness skills. It relies on Beastmastery trait merge for a flat 30% movement speed WHILE MERGED. When you try to swap pets, they go on a 9s CD and during that 9s you do not benefit the 30% movement. Even if you were using Swiftness from the bird when it was unmerged, it only lasts 10s and it takes time to cast. Then when you swap to the Gazelle the pet swap goes on 9s CD and merge will be on a 10s CD after you left bird. So now you swap to Gazelle and you have to stand there and wait for the merge CD to come off timer before you can even get into the Gazelle to use the F2. So theoretically I see what you're trying to argue but it doesn't pan out in the way that you were thinking because of merge timer. In other words, without writing a thesis on this one aspect, you'll make better distance by camping beast mode in Gazelle for the 30% movement baseline and F2 Charge on a 13s cycle. Trying to swap pets and adding in that 9 to 10s buffer to wait to remerge will kill your skill usage cycling & distance.

    Lots to unpack here. Let me just copy the important parts and address them one by one.

    OK so first, we are looking at in-combat because that's what happens in a pvp setting

    No we arent. Were talking about a horizontal race. You dont have a race in-combat. And the original context was about cross-map movement. You know, going to decap and +1? You also do that out of combat. So already youre very wrong.

    Again, Soulbeast does not use Swiftness skills

    Oh, do they now?. Yeah thats a load of kitten. And you use it while merged. And then there are stances or warhorn or whatever.

    1. Then you say: "You get swiftness from owl + your choice between stances, warhorn, or whatever. You hit the max cap all the same." OK first of all, whatever you're referencing is not going to be any faster than any other Soulbeast build aside from some +3% gain in movement from having Swiftness over merge trait. Upon that, using warhorn and stances and owl on a Soulbeast is not a practical build to be using in pvp. You need to be using Longbow and Greatsword, and Smokescale, because when you merge and go into combat you cannot swap pets and you need the Smokescale the most for obvious reasons. So whatever you're referencing here is about as far away as it could get from a realistic build comparison.

    Its not much of a boost, but its a boost. And again, talking out of combat, so you hit the movement speed cap. And sure its not a practical build because you dont care for map movement since you need vertical movement. But in WvW, its actually a build. A version of boonbeast specifically.

    1. Then you start talking about 1hand Sword on a Ranger. Just no. You suggest the idea that someone is going to run Greatsword for Swoop with a 1hand Sword with a Warhorn apparnetly for competitive purposes? Even if they did and even if they were out of combat, that 1hand Sword jump has this weird hampering effect with its animation that hinders the Ranger just enough to where it barely gains any distance at all compared to what the tooltip says. If you're talking a foot race like this, the 600 range on Sword#2 is more like 300 range in terms of distance gained because of the weird animation at the beginning and the pause at the end before the Ranger is allowed to move with WASD afterwards. And upon that man, that build would be terrible in combat regardless of if it was DPS or Bunker, doesn't matter. Those weapon sets would be hot garbage together. The days of old Boonbeast setups have been looooooong gone for awhile now man. Sword/Warhorn/Greatsword would get you jacked up in a hurry if you tried to run it in pvp or wvw.

    That "weird animation" is called a cast time. Its still faster. And sure, as I said, its redundant anyway. Youre ahead. And sure it wouldnt be good for 1v1s or teamfights. But neither is thief, is it? The point is to have a hypothetical thief analogue that can move across the map if they were horizontal.

    1. And then War I'm not going to discuss because it's slower than Ranger and Ranger is slower than Thief, and the same mistakes were made while viewing the breakdown, concerning not taking into account the hampering of movement from animations. A good example on War is GS#3 Whirlwind. That skill has some serious animation hampering. It doesn't boost you ahead nearly as much as the tooltip would make you think. Using a WW alongside of a guy who was just running with Swiftness 33%, would only put you ahead maybe 60-80 range from him, due to how the animation actually works.

    Its slower than ranger, yes. Its faster than thief. I did not make any mistakes. I counted the animation and stated it. It boosts you by exactly as much as I have said.

    At any rate man, the purpose of my comparisons were to use realistic build structures for pvp while being in combat. The purpose was not to point out theoretical weird run builds designed for GW1 Droknar's Forge run. I could do the same thing for Thief, point out of a bunch theoretical options that could improve its movement speed and init gain, ect ect, but that's unrealistic.

    You couldnt. Youre pretty much hitting the cap. Roll for initiative, perhaps, but that barely boosts you, and then youre tapped out. The purpose was to show that in horizontal movement thief is faster than ranger and warrior, and you failed to show that at all, because its not true.

    But just to humour you, what if it was in-combat? Well lets start with warrior. Its easier. 12600 over 16.45 remains the same, its not affected by in combat vs out of combat. So, 23.5 seconds of swiftness movement. Thats 280 units per second. So 23.5*280= 6580. For a total of 19180 units in 40 seconds. To compare, thief has the 7200 over 8. So, 32 seconds of movement. Lets be very generous and assume thief has 50% extra movement speed during the entire 32 seconds (needless to say, he wont). Thats 32*315= 10080. For a total of 17280. Thats almost 2k less. And that was with me being very generous. If we instead assume realistically the thief only has, lets say, 12 seconds of 50% movement, then its only 16580. Almost 3k less. Yeah, pretty rough for the thief, innit?

    You maths are kinda off by a bit
    a) For example you didn't calculate that Thief can use Dash (450 yards yard range) x6times in those 40 sec
    (2 in start + once every 10 sec) .

    So I didnt. Although its 5 times, not 6. 3 at the start, then one every 10 seconds, but you dont start with dash. Thats 750 units. Less far behind, but still behind.

    b) The 50% speed bonus on stealth is translated into 36-37% movement speed in combat

    Well, I did say "its about 10 units or so". 9 to be precise. You throw in about, idk, 110 units. Its still behind.

    c) Combining those 2 , you will get out of combat faster without being him and your 50% out of combat speed in stealth will be fully enabled

    Nah, if you combine those 2 thief still falls behind by a lot.

    and d) if you stealth , he cannot outrun you , because he cannot find you :)

    Thats not how outrunning is defined.

    Yeah it seems both of us haven't played much GW2 :)
    Daredevil has 3 dodges from the start + once per 10 sec . So in total is 7 in 40 sec

    Wait did I mess up my math? Oh its 6. Not 7. You dont start with dash. You start with shortbow 5, since initiative is more important to recharge.

    In an combat race , you start with the more easy available spell , in our case is Dash . Otherwise the delay from switching weapon + use the Arrow can be fatal . You can equip it while on the Dash animation

    Nope, see above.

    The 50% speed bonus on stealth is translated into 36-37% movement speed in combat
    Druids and Warriors with swiftness its 33%

    Percentage is meaningless, you want the real unit. That is a difference of 9 units per second. So after 40 seconds of running, youd barely be at 360. Its not much.

    I pretty sure the Thiefs will get out of combat faster and his 50% speed will be enabled :)

    He wont actually. And this is not what the race is about. And the 50% speed is meaningless, as seen above.

    a) Nope see above , you start with the Dash , you will waste 0,5 sec by equipping the shortbow and till the arrow its traveled .
    Its more scientific acceptable to do that while you are on the Dash animation
    edit: With my method (7 dashes) , i can use 2 Dash to give my resources time to recuperate + travel 900 more yards

    You dont. You dont equip shortbow, and you start with shortbow because initiative is more important of a resource than endurance. Its 1.5 units per second when youre regening endurance, vs 150 per second with shortbow 5. PRetty big.

    b)Its not 9 units .
    Its 3% difference movement increased x 40 sec = the number will be inflating even after that = they will never catch you

    Its literally 9 units per second. Its 391 units per second vs 400 units per second. Its so little its irrelevant.

    c) I pretty sure the Thiefs will get out of combat faster and his 50% speed will be enabled will travel even more distance

    Again, we start out of combat. And again, the speed makes close to no difference.

    a)No sorry , but with your method you will be off by 900 yards less from your goal .
    Try to imagine the first dodge , as a free 450 yard Leap > arrow > dodge .
    With your method and 5 dodges , you will be 900 yard less and your resources will not have time to be restored

    I hate having to repeat myself. The first dodge gives you about 150 units compared to just walking. The first infiltrators arrow gives you 500 units compared to just walking. And initiative is worth more than endurance. So is it now clear why you do not start with a dash? Good.

    b) If we start out of combat , then the Warrior + Druid will be running by 33% vs 50% of you .
    It will be 17% difference in speed/distance x40 sec = 2040 yards and will be increasing by the second

    Out of combat movement speed has a cap. At 400. With swiftness you reach 391 movement speed. So 50% only gains 9 units per seconds. So no, at most its 360 units if you ran 40 seconds with 50% vs someone with 33%. Not 2040 or anywhere close to it.

    Try to think it more rational , you will outrun them both:)
    Or try to stealth and hide them :)

    The one who needs to "think more rational" is the one who doesnt understand basic concepts. Do not make me repeat myself again.

    a)Again you don't really understand .
    Dodge >Arrow > 2x FREE DODGES > arrow > dodges
    With your calculation you will not gain 900 yard extra speed ...

    No I do understand. I understand you do not understand how this works. Let me explain. If you do the order "dodge > Arrow" you lose a total of 350 units at the start, and then another 150 for the second you wasted. On the other hand, if you do "Arrow > dodge", you gain 350 units and gain another 150 by not wasting a second. The latter moves you more.

    b) In combat has a cap ...
    Out of combat has not ...

    Yes it does. Do not argue without understanding the basics.

    a)Again read the basic too ...
    Swiftness doesn't put near the 400 cap
    Dont try to say something that you don't really understand

    You really are making me repeat myself? Ugh. So, lets do the math. Swiftness is 33% speedboost. You start with 294 base movement speed out of combat. 294*1.33= 391. The cap is 400. So you are literally just 9 units below cap. Thats 9 units per second. Got it now?

    b) its free 2x dodges
    Its free 900 yards
    Dodge >Arrow > 2x FREE DODGES > arrow > dodges

    No its not? You dont get anything. You just start regenerating endurance 1 second faster. Like, what if I instead use arrow, then dodge thrice, then arrow again? I gain distance. Simple, isnt it?

    With you method , you will run out resources faster...

    ... no? You start regenerating resources faster with my method.

    a) Again why do you make me repeat myself...
    In the PvP area the movements speed is extremly Lowered by default .
    Its not near the 294 ...
    Its like in 194-205

    b) You have 2x dodges that allows you to recuperate the Arrow and not run out of resources after 15 sec .
    Its called Resources management !

    1 month

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    @UNOwen.7132 lol you just say things that are wrong man.

    1. Rangers and Warriors do not outpace thief in a horizontal race. I don't understand how you can possibly argue with the breakdown that I presented.

    Because the breakdown you presented is incorrect, leaves out a lot of things.

    1. You said that: "Out of combat, 33% or 50% doesnt make a difference" which is silly because in pvp you're always in combat. Even if we were talking out of combat, the DP Daredevil is still clearly faster. As much can be viewed from the breakdown.

    We were talking about a horizontal race. That does not include in-combat. And if we talk out of combat, Ranger is clearly much faster, as you can see from the corrected breakdown. Oh and fun fact: If we were talking in-combat, warrior actually pulls ahead a lot, because they spend less time just running and more time in movement.

    1. Then you say: "Additionally in order to obtain anything close to permastealth, thief has to slow down a lot. Far more than they get from it. So, not a point." It's not about permastealth, it's about the small stealths like their heal skill, which is 24s CD traited for a 6s +50% movement, or Steal if it is traited to grant stealth with significantly large reduction in CD. Between just the heal and steal, not counting any other sources of stealth, a PD Core or DP dd is essentially getting 9s of +50% movement per 24s. That's something like 40% uptime of +50% movement my dude. So if they cycle the usage wisely, they use the porting during the 15s that the 50% movement is on CD, and run with the 50% movement for 9s while init is building back up. There is an extremely small margin of time where the thief has to WASD with only 33% Swift, very small margin of time. So yeah, that +50% movement from stealth is extremely significant in this breakdown, whether you look at from in combat or out.

    "that's 50% movement on a class that can perma stealth". Quite literally what you wrote. Dont complain that I point out something you say yourself. Its not significant at all, because out of combat 33% and 50% is nearly identical (its a difference of 10 movement speed or so), and in-combat its inferior to spending more time in movement skills (if you want, I can break down in-combat movement as well. Just as a spoiler: Warrior and Ranger are faster).

    1. Shadow Step is 40s when traited in Shadow Arts my dude.

    Ah, right, fair enough.

    1. You said: "Lets put it to 40 seconds, shall we? So, we get at most 1 shadowstep" No you get 2x. You use Shadow Step immediately at the start of the 60s timer, as well as 2x SB#5s. I already pointed this out in the breakdown. You do this early, first skills used, so that they come off CD faster during the 60s timer. My good bro, you get to use Shadow Step twice in the 60s race. And don't worry, I already calculated the rest of the breakdown for Range/War in the same way with their skill usage.

    And even with that, Ranger is ahead. Without even using sword. And no, you didnt. You forgot a lot of things, as I pointed out, and made a lot of wrong assumptions.

    1. Then you go on to say: "Infiltrators arrow is not instant either. Theyre both about a second, but swoop carries you a tiny bit further." again, you're not noticing something important for this comparison. The SB#5 does have an animation time but it DOES NOT stop your WASD movement walking speed while casting it. So the Thief is still moving with WASD while the animation begins, an when it ends it instantly moves him with no interruption to the WASD movement. Swoop and Gazelle F2 or Bull's Charge or Rush, REPLACE all WASD movement and actually cause small pauses to it before and after the animations. A Swoop may be 1000 range but it is on a 10s CD that is effectively an 11s CD because the recharge doesn't begin until the 1s animation ends. The Sb#5 on the other hand, does not interrupt the initiative regen whatsoever and maintains a sound 2x 900 range uses per 12s = 1800 range per 12s, all the while not interrupting the WASD movement of the Thief at all, nor does Shadow Step or Steal.

    Why does it stopping WASD movement matter, exactly? After you use Shortbow 5, no matter how or where you move, your location is locked in. You will always travel 900 units from your original point. Thats 900 units per second. Meanwhile Rush and swoop and whatever all finish their full animation also in a second, and you can move freely instantly. Thats 1200 units per second. Thats more distance covered in the same time. That is all that matters. I get what youre trying to do, muddle the waters to hide important aspects that dismantle your argument, but it doesnt work.

    1. And then this here is just entirely and completely incorrect in every possible way. You said that: "You get both Bird Swoop and Gazelle Charge, actually. You cant swap pets in-combat, but were not looking at in-combat. So thats 1200 on 12 seconds and Swoops 1200 on 18 seconds. Theyre also both about a second." OK so first, we are looking at in-combat because that's what happens in a pvp setting. When you're talking about things chasing each other and running from each other, that's what's happening, people in combat. When a Soulbeast is in combat it can't swap pets. Even if we were talking about out of combat, you are seriously not understanding some things about Ranger here. Again, Soulbeast does not use Swiftness skills. It relies on Beastmastery trait merge for a flat 30% movement speed WHILE MERGED. When you try to swap pets, they go on a 9s CD and during that 9s you do not benefit the 30% movement. Even if you were using Swiftness from the bird when it was unmerged, it only lasts 10s and it takes time to cast. Then when you swap to the Gazelle the pet swap goes on 9s CD and merge will be on a 10s CD after you left bird. So now you swap to Gazelle and you have to stand there and wait for the merge CD to come off timer before you can even get into the Gazelle to use the F2. So theoretically I see what you're trying to argue but it doesn't pan out in the way that you were thinking because of merge timer. In other words, without writing a thesis on this one aspect, you'll make better distance by camping beast mode in Gazelle for the 30% movement baseline and F2 Charge on a 13s cycle. Trying to swap pets and adding in that 9 to 10s buffer to wait to remerge will kill your skill usage cycling & distance.

    Lots to unpack here. Let me just copy the important parts and address them one by one.

    OK so first, we are looking at in-combat because that's what happens in a pvp setting

    No we arent. Were talking about a horizontal race. You dont have a race in-combat. And the original context was about cross-map movement. You know, going to decap and +1? You also do that out of combat. So already youre very wrong.

    Again, Soulbeast does not use Swiftness skills

    Oh, do they now?. Yeah thats a load of kitten. And you use it while merged. And then there are stances or warhorn or whatever.

    1. Then you say: "You get swiftness from owl + your choice between stances, warhorn, or whatever. You hit the max cap all the same." OK first of all, whatever you're referencing is not going to be any faster than any other Soulbeast build aside from some +3% gain in movement from having Swiftness over merge trait. Upon that, using warhorn and stances and owl on a Soulbeast is not a practical build to be using in pvp. You need to be using Longbow and Greatsword, and Smokescale, because when you merge and go into combat you cannot swap pets and you need the Smokescale the most for obvious reasons. So whatever you're referencing here is about as far away as it could get from a realistic build comparison.

    Its not much of a boost, but its a boost. And again, talking out of combat, so you hit the movement speed cap. And sure its not a practical build because you dont care for map movement since you need vertical movement. But in WvW, its actually a build. A version of boonbeast specifically.

    1. Then you start talking about 1hand Sword on a Ranger. Just no. You suggest the idea that someone is going to run Greatsword for Swoop with a 1hand Sword with a Warhorn apparnetly for competitive purposes? Even if they did and even if they were out of combat, that 1hand Sword jump has this weird hampering effect with its animation that hinders the Ranger just enough to where it barely gains any distance at all compared to what the tooltip says. If you're talking a foot race like this, the 600 range on Sword#2 is more like 300 range in terms of distance gained because of the weird animation at the beginning and the pause at the end before the Ranger is allowed to move with WASD afterwards. And upon that man, that build would be terrible in combat regardless of if it was DPS or Bunker, doesn't matter. Those weapon sets would be hot garbage together. The days of old Boonbeast setups have been looooooong gone for awhile now man. Sword/Warhorn/Greatsword would get you jacked up in a hurry if you tried to run it in pvp or wvw.

    That "weird animation" is called a cast time. Its still faster. And sure, as I said, its redundant anyway. Youre ahead. And sure it wouldnt be good for 1v1s or teamfights. But neither is thief, is it? The point is to have a hypothetical thief analogue that can move across the map if they were horizontal.

    1. And then War I'm not going to discuss because it's slower than Ranger and Ranger is slower than Thief, and the same mistakes were made while viewing the breakdown, concerning not taking into account the hampering of movement from animations. A good example on War is GS#3 Whirlwind. That skill has some serious animation hampering. It doesn't boost you ahead nearly as much as the tooltip would make you think. Using a WW alongside of a guy who was just running with Swiftness 33%, would only put you ahead maybe 60-80 range from him, due to how the animation actually works.

    Its slower than ranger, yes. Its faster than thief. I did not make any mistakes. I counted the animation and stated it. It boosts you by exactly as much as I have said.

    At any rate man, the purpose of my comparisons were to use realistic build structures for pvp while being in combat. The purpose was not to point out theoretical weird run builds designed for GW1 Droknar's Forge run. I could do the same thing for Thief, point out of a bunch theoretical options that could improve its movement speed and init gain, ect ect, but that's unrealistic.

    You couldnt. Youre pretty much hitting the cap. Roll for initiative, perhaps, but that barely boosts you, and then youre tapped out. The purpose was to show that in horizontal movement thief is faster than ranger and warrior, and you failed to show that at all, because its not true.

    But just to humour you, what if it was in-combat? Well lets start with warrior. Its easier. 12600 over 16.45 remains the same, its not affected by in combat vs out of combat. So, 23.5 seconds of swiftness movement. Thats 280 units per second. So 23.5*280= 6580. For a total of 19180 units in 40 seconds. To compare, thief has the 7200 over 8. So, 32 seconds of movement. Lets be very generous and assume thief has 50% extra movement speed during the entire 32 seconds (needless to say, he wont). Thats 32*315= 10080. For a total of 17280. Thats almost 2k less. And that was with me being very generous. If we instead assume realistically the thief only has, lets say, 12 seconds of 50% movement, then its only 16580. Almost 3k less. Yeah, pretty rough for the thief, innit?

    You maths are kinda off by a bit
    a) For example you didn't calculate that Thief can use Dash (450 yards yard range) x6times in those 40 sec
    (2 in start + once every 10 sec) .

    So I didnt. Although its 5 times, not 6. 3 at the start, then one every 10 seconds, but you dont start with dash. Thats 750 units. Less far behind, but still behind.

    b) The 50% speed bonus on stealth is translated into 36-37% movement speed in combat

    Well, I did say "its about 10 units or so". 9 to be precise. You throw in about, idk, 110 units. Its still behind.

    c) Combining those 2 , you will get out of combat faster without being him and your 50% out of combat speed in stealth will be fully enabled

    Nah, if you combine those 2 thief still falls behind by a lot.

    and d) if you stealth , he cannot outrun you , because he cannot find you :)

    Thats not how outrunning is defined.

    Yeah it seems both of us haven't played much GW2 :)
    Daredevil has 3 dodges from the start + once per 10 sec . So in total is 7 in 40 sec

    Wait did I mess up my math? Oh its 6. Not 7. You dont start with dash. You start with shortbow 5, since initiative is more important to recharge.

    In an combat race , you start with the more easy available spell , in our case is Dash . Otherwise the delay from switching weapon + use the Arrow can be fatal . You can equip it while on the Dash animation

    Nope, see above.

    The 50% speed bonus on stealth is translated into 36-37% movement speed in combat
    Druids and Warriors with swiftness its 33%

    Percentage is meaningless, you want the real unit. That is a difference of 9 units per second. So after 40 seconds of running, youd barely be at 360. Its not much.

    I pretty sure the Thiefs will get out of combat faster and his 50% speed will be enabled :)

    He wont actually. And this is not what the race is about. And the 50% speed is meaningless, as seen above.

    a) Nope see above , you start with the Dash , you will waste 0,5 sec by equipping the shortbow and till the arrow its traveled .
    Its more scientific acceptable to do that while you are on the Dash animation
    edit: With my method (7 dashes) , i can use 2 Dash to give my resources time to recuperate + travel 900 more yards

    You dont. You dont equip shortbow, and you start with shortbow because initiative is more important of a resource than endurance. Its 1.5 units per second when youre regening endurance, vs 150 per second with shortbow 5. PRetty big.

    b)Its not 9 units .
    Its 3% difference movement increased x 40 sec = the number will be inflating even after that = they will never catch you

    Its literally 9 units per second. Its 391 units per second vs 400 units per second. Its so little its irrelevant.

    c) I pretty sure the Thiefs will get out of combat faster and his 50% speed will be enabled will travel even more distance

    Again, we start out of combat. And again, the speed makes close to no difference.

    a)No sorry , but with your method you will be off by 900 yards less from your goal .
    Try to imagine the first dodge , as a free 450 yard Leap > arrow > dodge .
    With your method and 5 dodges , you will be 900 yard less and your resources will not have time to be restored

    I hate having to repeat myself. The first dodge gives you about 150 units compared to just walking. The first infiltrators arrow gives you 500 units compared to just walking. And initiative is worth more than endurance. So is it now clear why you do not start with a dash? Good.

    b) If we start out of combat , then the Warrior + Druid will be running by 33% vs 50% of you .
    It will be 17% difference in speed/distance x40 sec = 2040 yards and will be increasing by the second

    Out of combat movement speed has a cap. At 400. With swiftness you reach 391 movement speed. So 50% only gains 9 units per seconds. So no, at most its 360 units if you ran 40 seconds with 50% vs someone with 33%. Not 2040 or anywhere close to it.

    Try to think it more rational , you will outrun them both:)
    Or try to stealth and hide them :)

    The one who needs to "think more rational" is the one who doesnt understand basic concepts. Do not make me repeat myself again.

    a)Again you don't really understand .
    Dodge >Arrow > 2x FREE DODGES > arrow > dodges
    With your calculation you will not gain 900 yard extra speed ...

    No I do understand. I understand you do not understand how this works. Let me explain. If you do the order "dodge > Arrow" you lose a total of 350 units at the start, and then another 150 for the second you wasted. On the other hand, if you do "Arrow > dodge", you gain 350 units and gain another 150 by not wasting a second. The latter moves you more.

    b) In combat has a cap ...
    Out of combat has not ...

    Yes it does. Do not argue without understanding the basics.

    a)Again read the basic too ...
    Swiftness doesn't put near the 400 cap
    Dont try to say something that you don't really understand

    You really are making me repeat myself? Ugh. So, lets do the math. Swiftness is 33% speedboost. You start with 294 base movement speed out of combat. 294*1.33= 391. The cap is 400. So you are literally just 9 units below cap. Thats 9 units per second. Got it now?

    b) its free 2x dodges
    Its free 900 yards
    Dodge >Arrow > 2x FREE DODGES > arrow > dodges

    No its not? You dont get anything. You just start regenerating endurance 1 second faster. Like, what if I instead use arrow, then dodge thrice, then arrow again? I gain distance. Simple, isnt it?

    With you method , you will run out resources faster...

    ... no? You start regenerating resources faster with my method.

    a) Again why do you make me repeat myself...
    In the PvP area the movements speed is extremly Lowered by default .
    Its not near the 294 ...
    Its like in 194-205

    .... no? Its not? What the bloody hell are you talking about. Movement speed and its cap doesnt change other than in-combat vs out of combat. If it did ,the wiki would say it. Are you just a bad troll?

    b) You have 2x dodges that allows you to recuperate the Arrow and not run out of resources after 15 sec .
    Its called Resources management !

    No, its called "Not understanding how resources work". You regenerate the arrow as soon as you use it. By dashing first you lose 1 second of initiative regeneration and gain nothing. You lose distance traveled. Its wrong. Do you finally get it?

  • @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    @UNOwen.7132 lol you just say things that are wrong man.

    1. Rangers and Warriors do not outpace thief in a horizontal race. I don't understand how you can possibly argue with the breakdown that I presented.

    Because the breakdown you presented is incorrect, leaves out a lot of things.

    1. You said that: "Out of combat, 33% or 50% doesnt make a difference" which is silly because in pvp you're always in combat. Even if we were talking out of combat, the DP Daredevil is still clearly faster. As much can be viewed from the breakdown.

    We were talking about a horizontal race. That does not include in-combat. And if we talk out of combat, Ranger is clearly much faster, as you can see from the corrected breakdown. Oh and fun fact: If we were talking in-combat, warrior actually pulls ahead a lot, because they spend less time just running and more time in movement.

    1. Then you say: "Additionally in order to obtain anything close to permastealth, thief has to slow down a lot. Far more than they get from it. So, not a point." It's not about permastealth, it's about the small stealths like their heal skill, which is 24s CD traited for a 6s +50% movement, or Steal if it is traited to grant stealth with significantly large reduction in CD. Between just the heal and steal, not counting any other sources of stealth, a PD Core or DP dd is essentially getting 9s of +50% movement per 24s. That's something like 40% uptime of +50% movement my dude. So if they cycle the usage wisely, they use the porting during the 15s that the 50% movement is on CD, and run with the 50% movement for 9s while init is building back up. There is an extremely small margin of time where the thief has to WASD with only 33% Swift, very small margin of time. So yeah, that +50% movement from stealth is extremely significant in this breakdown, whether you look at from in combat or out.

    "that's 50% movement on a class that can perma stealth". Quite literally what you wrote. Dont complain that I point out something you say yourself. Its not significant at all, because out of combat 33% and 50% is nearly identical (its a difference of 10 movement speed or so), and in-combat its inferior to spending more time in movement skills (if you want, I can break down in-combat movement as well. Just as a spoiler: Warrior and Ranger are faster).

    1. Shadow Step is 40s when traited in Shadow Arts my dude.

    Ah, right, fair enough.

    1. You said: "Lets put it to 40 seconds, shall we? So, we get at most 1 shadowstep" No you get 2x. You use Shadow Step immediately at the start of the 60s timer, as well as 2x SB#5s. I already pointed this out in the breakdown. You do this early, first skills used, so that they come off CD faster during the 60s timer. My good bro, you get to use Shadow Step twice in the 60s race. And don't worry, I already calculated the rest of the breakdown for Range/War in the same way with their skill usage.

    And even with that, Ranger is ahead. Without even using sword. And no, you didnt. You forgot a lot of things, as I pointed out, and made a lot of wrong assumptions.

    1. Then you go on to say: "Infiltrators arrow is not instant either. Theyre both about a second, but swoop carries you a tiny bit further." again, you're not noticing something important for this comparison. The SB#5 does have an animation time but it DOES NOT stop your WASD movement walking speed while casting it. So the Thief is still moving with WASD while the animation begins, an when it ends it instantly moves him with no interruption to the WASD movement. Swoop and Gazelle F2 or Bull's Charge or Rush, REPLACE all WASD movement and actually cause small pauses to it before and after the animations. A Swoop may be 1000 range but it is on a 10s CD that is effectively an 11s CD because the recharge doesn't begin until the 1s animation ends. The Sb#5 on the other hand, does not interrupt the initiative regen whatsoever and maintains a sound 2x 900 range uses per 12s = 1800 range per 12s, all the while not interrupting the WASD movement of the Thief at all, nor does Shadow Step or Steal.

    Why does it stopping WASD movement matter, exactly? After you use Shortbow 5, no matter how or where you move, your location is locked in. You will always travel 900 units from your original point. Thats 900 units per second. Meanwhile Rush and swoop and whatever all finish their full animation also in a second, and you can move freely instantly. Thats 1200 units per second. Thats more distance covered in the same time. That is all that matters. I get what youre trying to do, muddle the waters to hide important aspects that dismantle your argument, but it doesnt work.

    1. And then this here is just entirely and completely incorrect in every possible way. You said that: "You get both Bird Swoop and Gazelle Charge, actually. You cant swap pets in-combat, but were not looking at in-combat. So thats 1200 on 12 seconds and Swoops 1200 on 18 seconds. Theyre also both about a second." OK so first, we are looking at in-combat because that's what happens in a pvp setting. When you're talking about things chasing each other and running from each other, that's what's happening, people in combat. When a Soulbeast is in combat it can't swap pets. Even if we were talking about out of combat, you are seriously not understanding some things about Ranger here. Again, Soulbeast does not use Swiftness skills. It relies on Beastmastery trait merge for a flat 30% movement speed WHILE MERGED. When you try to swap pets, they go on a 9s CD and during that 9s you do not benefit the 30% movement. Even if you were using Swiftness from the bird when it was unmerged, it only lasts 10s and it takes time to cast. Then when you swap to the Gazelle the pet swap goes on 9s CD and merge will be on a 10s CD after you left bird. So now you swap to Gazelle and you have to stand there and wait for the merge CD to come off timer before you can even get into the Gazelle to use the F2. So theoretically I see what you're trying to argue but it doesn't pan out in the way that you were thinking because of merge timer. In other words, without writing a thesis on this one aspect, you'll make better distance by camping beast mode in Gazelle for the 30% movement baseline and F2 Charge on a 13s cycle. Trying to swap pets and adding in that 9 to 10s buffer to wait to remerge will kill your skill usage cycling & distance.

    Lots to unpack here. Let me just copy the important parts and address them one by one.

    OK so first, we are looking at in-combat because that's what happens in a pvp setting

    No we arent. Were talking about a horizontal race. You dont have a race in-combat. And the original context was about cross-map movement. You know, going to decap and +1? You also do that out of combat. So already youre very wrong.

    Again, Soulbeast does not use Swiftness skills

    Oh, do they now?. Yeah thats a load of kitten. And you use it while merged. And then there are stances or warhorn or whatever.

    1. Then you say: "You get swiftness from owl + your choice between stances, warhorn, or whatever. You hit the max cap all the same." OK first of all, whatever you're referencing is not going to be any faster than any other Soulbeast build aside from some +3% gain in movement from having Swiftness over merge trait. Upon that, using warhorn and stances and owl on a Soulbeast is not a practical build to be using in pvp. You need to be using Longbow and Greatsword, and Smokescale, because when you merge and go into combat you cannot swap pets and you need the Smokescale the most for obvious reasons. So whatever you're referencing here is about as far away as it could get from a realistic build comparison.

    Its not much of a boost, but its a boost. And again, talking out of combat, so you hit the movement speed cap. And sure its not a practical build because you dont care for map movement since you need vertical movement. But in WvW, its actually a build. A version of boonbeast specifically.

    1. Then you start talking about 1hand Sword on a Ranger. Just no. You suggest the idea that someone is going to run Greatsword for Swoop with a 1hand Sword with a Warhorn apparnetly for competitive purposes? Even if they did and even if they were out of combat, that 1hand Sword jump has this weird hampering effect with its animation that hinders the Ranger just enough to where it barely gains any distance at all compared to what the tooltip says. If you're talking a foot race like this, the 600 range on Sword#2 is more like 300 range in terms of distance gained because of the weird animation at the beginning and the pause at the end before the Ranger is allowed to move with WASD afterwards. And upon that man, that build would be terrible in combat regardless of if it was DPS or Bunker, doesn't matter. Those weapon sets would be hot garbage together. The days of old Boonbeast setups have been looooooong gone for awhile now man. Sword/Warhorn/Greatsword would get you jacked up in a hurry if you tried to run it in pvp or wvw.

    That "weird animation" is called a cast time. Its still faster. And sure, as I said, its redundant anyway. Youre ahead. And sure it wouldnt be good for 1v1s or teamfights. But neither is thief, is it? The point is to have a hypothetical thief analogue that can move across the map if they were horizontal.

    1. And then War I'm not going to discuss because it's slower than Ranger and Ranger is slower than Thief, and the same mistakes were made while viewing the breakdown, concerning not taking into account the hampering of movement from animations. A good example on War is GS#3 Whirlwind. That skill has some serious animation hampering. It doesn't boost you ahead nearly as much as the tooltip would make you think. Using a WW alongside of a guy who was just running with Swiftness 33%, would only put you ahead maybe 60-80 range from him, due to how the animation actually works.

    Its slower than ranger, yes. Its faster than thief. I did not make any mistakes. I counted the animation and stated it. It boosts you by exactly as much as I have said.

    At any rate man, the purpose of my comparisons were to use realistic build structures for pvp while being in combat. The purpose was not to point out theoretical weird run builds designed for GW1 Droknar's Forge run. I could do the same thing for Thief, point out of a bunch theoretical options that could improve its movement speed and init gain, ect ect, but that's unrealistic.

    You couldnt. Youre pretty much hitting the cap. Roll for initiative, perhaps, but that barely boosts you, and then youre tapped out. The purpose was to show that in horizontal movement thief is faster than ranger and warrior, and you failed to show that at all, because its not true.

    But just to humour you, what if it was in-combat? Well lets start with warrior. Its easier. 12600 over 16.45 remains the same, its not affected by in combat vs out of combat. So, 23.5 seconds of swiftness movement. Thats 280 units per second. So 23.5*280= 6580. For a total of 19180 units in 40 seconds. To compare, thief has the 7200 over 8. So, 32 seconds of movement. Lets be very generous and assume thief has 50% extra movement speed during the entire 32 seconds (needless to say, he wont). Thats 32*315= 10080. For a total of 17280. Thats almost 2k less. And that was with me being very generous. If we instead assume realistically the thief only has, lets say, 12 seconds of 50% movement, then its only 16580. Almost 3k less. Yeah, pretty rough for the thief, innit?

    You maths are kinda off by a bit
    a) For example you didn't calculate that Thief can use Dash (450 yards yard range) x6times in those 40 sec
    (2 in start + once every 10 sec) .

    So I didnt. Although its 5 times, not 6. 3 at the start, then one every 10 seconds, but you dont start with dash. Thats 750 units. Less far behind, but still behind.

    b) The 50% speed bonus on stealth is translated into 36-37% movement speed in combat

    Well, I did say "its about 10 units or so". 9 to be precise. You throw in about, idk, 110 units. Its still behind.

    c) Combining those 2 , you will get out of combat faster without being him and your 50% out of combat speed in stealth will be fully enabled

    Nah, if you combine those 2 thief still falls behind by a lot.

    and d) if you stealth , he cannot outrun you , because he cannot find you :)

    Thats not how outrunning is defined.

    Yeah it seems both of us haven't played much GW2 :)
    Daredevil has 3 dodges from the start + once per 10 sec . So in total is 7 in 40 sec

    Wait did I mess up my math? Oh its 6. Not 7. You dont start with dash. You start with shortbow 5, since initiative is more important to recharge.

    In an combat race , you start with the more easy available spell , in our case is Dash . Otherwise the delay from switching weapon + use the Arrow can be fatal . You can equip it while on the Dash animation

    Nope, see above.

    The 50% speed bonus on stealth is translated into 36-37% movement speed in combat
    Druids and Warriors with swiftness its 33%

    Percentage is meaningless, you want the real unit. That is a difference of 9 units per second. So after 40 seconds of running, youd barely be at 360. Its not much.

    I pretty sure the Thiefs will get out of combat faster and his 50% speed will be enabled :)

    He wont actually. And this is not what the race is about. And the 50% speed is meaningless, as seen above.

    a) Nope see above , you start with the Dash , you will waste 0,5 sec by equipping the shortbow and till the arrow its traveled .
    Its more scientific acceptable to do that while you are on the Dash animation
    edit: With my method (7 dashes) , i can use 2 Dash to give my resources time to recuperate + travel 900 more yards

    You dont. You dont equip shortbow, and you start with shortbow because initiative is more important of a resource than endurance. Its 1.5 units per second when youre regening endurance, vs 150 per second with shortbow 5. PRetty big.

    b)Its not 9 units .
    Its 3% difference movement increased x 40 sec = the number will be inflating even after that = they will never catch you

    Its literally 9 units per second. Its 391 units per second vs 400 units per second. Its so little its irrelevant.

    c) I pretty sure the Thiefs will get out of combat faster and his 50% speed will be enabled will travel even more distance

    Again, we start out of combat. And again, the speed makes close to no difference.

    a)No sorry , but with your method you will be off by 900 yards less from your goal .
    Try to imagine the first dodge , as a free 450 yard Leap > arrow > dodge .
    With your method and 5 dodges , you will be 900 yard less and your resources will not have time to be restored

    I hate having to repeat myself. The first dodge gives you about 150 units compared to just walking. The first infiltrators arrow gives you 500 units compared to just walking. And initiative is worth more than endurance. So is it now clear why you do not start with a dash? Good.

    b) If we start out of combat , then the Warrior + Druid will be running by 33% vs 50% of you .
    It will be 17% difference in speed/distance x40 sec = 2040 yards and will be increasing by the second

    Out of combat movement speed has a cap. At 400. With swiftness you reach 391 movement speed. So 50% only gains 9 units per seconds. So no, at most its 360 units if you ran 40 seconds with 50% vs someone with 33%. Not 2040 or anywhere close to it.

    Try to think it more rational , you will outrun them both:)
    Or try to stealth and hide them :)

    The one who needs to "think more rational" is the one who doesnt understand basic concepts. Do not make me repeat myself again.

    a)Again you don't really understand .
    Dodge >Arrow > 2x FREE DODGES > arrow > dodges
    With your calculation you will not gain 900 yard extra speed ...

    No I do understand. I understand you do not understand how this works. Let me explain. If you do the order "dodge > Arrow" you lose a total of 350 units at the start, and then another 150 for the second you wasted. On the other hand, if you do "Arrow > dodge", you gain 350 units and gain another 150 by not wasting a second. The latter moves you more.

    b) In combat has a cap ...
    Out of combat has not ...

    Yes it does. Do not argue without understanding the basics.

    a)Again read the basic too ...
    Swiftness doesn't put near the 400 cap
    Dont try to say something that you don't really understand

    You really are making me repeat myself? Ugh. So, lets do the math. Swiftness is 33% speedboost. You start with 294 base movement speed out of combat. 294*1.33= 391. The cap is 400. So you are literally just 9 units below cap. Thats 9 units per second. Got it now?

    b) its free 2x dodges
    Its free 900 yards
    Dodge >Arrow > 2x FREE DODGES > arrow > dodges

    No its not? You dont get anything. You just start regenerating endurance 1 second faster. Like, what if I instead use arrow, then dodge thrice, then arrow again? I gain distance. Simple, isnt it?

    With you method , you will run out resources faster...

    ... no? You start regenerating resources faster with my method.

    a) Again why do you make me repeat myself...
    In the PvP area the movements speed is extremly Lowered by default .
    Its not near the 294 ...
    Its like in 194-205

    .... no? Its not? What the bloody hell are you talking about. Movement speed and its cap doesnt change other than in-combat vs out of combat. If it did ,the wiki would say it. Are you just a bad troll?

    b) You have 2x dodges that allows you to recuperate the Arrow and not run out of resources after 15 sec .
    Its called Resources management !

    No, its called "Not understanding how resources work". You regenerate the arrow as soon as you use it. By dashing first you lose 1 second of initiative regeneration and gain nothing. You lose distance traveled. Its wrong. Do you finally get it?

    a) PvE out of combat speed is different from the PvP ones .
    Just go in the PvE and and use any speed boost , you will know the difference ....

    b) With you method you will run out of resources in less than a min (3 Arrows-5 dodges)
    By my calculations you will waste 2xFREE DODGES , GAIN 900 YARD DISTANCE and then have your remaining 5x dodges + 3 arrows to manage as you wish

    I understand that you are new to the game . But ask me next time . I played from Beta till the release of HoT

    1 month

  • Dont make him repeat himself pls

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    @UNOwen.7132 lol you just say things that are wrong man.

    1. Rangers and Warriors do not outpace thief in a horizontal race. I don't understand how you can possibly argue with the breakdown that I presented.

    Because the breakdown you presented is incorrect, leaves out a lot of things.

    1. You said that: "Out of combat, 33% or 50% doesnt make a difference" which is silly because in pvp you're always in combat. Even if we were talking out of combat, the DP Daredevil is still clearly faster. As much can be viewed from the breakdown.

    We were talking about a horizontal race. That does not include in-combat. And if we talk out of combat, Ranger is clearly much faster, as you can see from the corrected breakdown. Oh and fun fact: If we were talking in-combat, warrior actually pulls ahead a lot, because they spend less time just running and more time in movement.

    1. Then you say: "Additionally in order to obtain anything close to permastealth, thief has to slow down a lot. Far more than they get from it. So, not a point." It's not about permastealth, it's about the small stealths like their heal skill, which is 24s CD traited for a 6s +50% movement, or Steal if it is traited to grant stealth with significantly large reduction in CD. Between just the heal and steal, not counting any other sources of stealth, a PD Core or DP dd is essentially getting 9s of +50% movement per 24s. That's something like 40% uptime of +50% movement my dude. So if they cycle the usage wisely, they use the porting during the 15s that the 50% movement is on CD, and run with the 50% movement for 9s while init is building back up. There is an extremely small margin of time where the thief has to WASD with only 33% Swift, very small margin of time. So yeah, that +50% movement from stealth is extremely significant in this breakdown, whether you look at from in combat or out.

    "that's 50% movement on a class that can perma stealth". Quite literally what you wrote. Dont complain that I point out something you say yourself. Its not significant at all, because out of combat 33% and 50% is nearly identical (its a difference of 10 movement speed or so), and in-combat its inferior to spending more time in movement skills (if you want, I can break down in-combat movement as well. Just as a spoiler: Warrior and Ranger are faster).

    1. Shadow Step is 40s when traited in Shadow Arts my dude.

    Ah, right, fair enough.

    1. You said: "Lets put it to 40 seconds, shall we? So, we get at most 1 shadowstep" No you get 2x. You use Shadow Step immediately at the start of the 60s timer, as well as 2x SB#5s. I already pointed this out in the breakdown. You do this early, first skills used, so that they come off CD faster during the 60s timer. My good bro, you get to use Shadow Step twice in the 60s race. And don't worry, I already calculated the rest of the breakdown for Range/War in the same way with their skill usage.

    And even with that, Ranger is ahead. Without even using sword. And no, you didnt. You forgot a lot of things, as I pointed out, and made a lot of wrong assumptions.

    1. Then you go on to say: "Infiltrators arrow is not instant either. Theyre both about a second, but swoop carries you a tiny bit further." again, you're not noticing something important for this comparison. The SB#5 does have an animation time but it DOES NOT stop your WASD movement walking speed while casting it. So the Thief is still moving with WASD while the animation begins, an when it ends it instantly moves him with no interruption to the WASD movement. Swoop and Gazelle F2 or Bull's Charge or Rush, REPLACE all WASD movement and actually cause small pauses to it before and after the animations. A Swoop may be 1000 range but it is on a 10s CD that is effectively an 11s CD because the recharge doesn't begin until the 1s animation ends. The Sb#5 on the other hand, does not interrupt the initiative regen whatsoever and maintains a sound 2x 900 range uses per 12s = 1800 range per 12s, all the while not interrupting the WASD movement of the Thief at all, nor does Shadow Step or Steal.

    Why does it stopping WASD movement matter, exactly? After you use Shortbow 5, no matter how or where you move, your location is locked in. You will always travel 900 units from your original point. Thats 900 units per second. Meanwhile Rush and swoop and whatever all finish their full animation also in a second, and you can move freely instantly. Thats 1200 units per second. Thats more distance covered in the same time. That is all that matters. I get what youre trying to do, muddle the waters to hide important aspects that dismantle your argument, but it doesnt work.

    1. And then this here is just entirely and completely incorrect in every possible way. You said that: "You get both Bird Swoop and Gazelle Charge, actually. You cant swap pets in-combat, but were not looking at in-combat. So thats 1200 on 12 seconds and Swoops 1200 on 18 seconds. Theyre also both about a second." OK so first, we are looking at in-combat because that's what happens in a pvp setting. When you're talking about things chasing each other and running from each other, that's what's happening, people in combat. When a Soulbeast is in combat it can't swap pets. Even if we were talking about out of combat, you are seriously not understanding some things about Ranger here. Again, Soulbeast does not use Swiftness skills. It relies on Beastmastery trait merge for a flat 30% movement speed WHILE MERGED. When you try to swap pets, they go on a 9s CD and during that 9s you do not benefit the 30% movement. Even if you were using Swiftness from the bird when it was unmerged, it only lasts 10s and it takes time to cast. Then when you swap to the Gazelle the pet swap goes on 9s CD and merge will be on a 10s CD after you left bird. So now you swap to Gazelle and you have to stand there and wait for the merge CD to come off timer before you can even get into the Gazelle to use the F2. So theoretically I see what you're trying to argue but it doesn't pan out in the way that you were thinking because of merge timer. In other words, without writing a thesis on this one aspect, you'll make better distance by camping beast mode in Gazelle for the 30% movement baseline and F2 Charge on a 13s cycle. Trying to swap pets and adding in that 9 to 10s buffer to wait to remerge will kill your skill usage cycling & distance.

    Lots to unpack here. Let me just copy the important parts and address them one by one.

    OK so first, we are looking at in-combat because that's what happens in a pvp setting

    No we arent. Were talking about a horizontal race. You dont have a race in-combat. And the original context was about cross-map movement. You know, going to decap and +1? You also do that out of combat. So already youre very wrong.

    Again, Soulbeast does not use Swiftness skills

    Oh, do they now?. Yeah thats a load of kitten. And you use it while merged. And then there are stances or warhorn or whatever.

    1. Then you say: "You get swiftness from owl + your choice between stances, warhorn, or whatever. You hit the max cap all the same." OK first of all, whatever you're referencing is not going to be any faster than any other Soulbeast build aside from some +3% gain in movement from having Swiftness over merge trait. Upon that, using warhorn and stances and owl on a Soulbeast is not a practical build to be using in pvp. You need to be using Longbow and Greatsword, and Smokescale, because when you merge and go into combat you cannot swap pets and you need the Smokescale the most for obvious reasons. So whatever you're referencing here is about as far away as it could get from a realistic build comparison.

    Its not much of a boost, but its a boost. And again, talking out of combat, so you hit the movement speed cap. And sure its not a practical build because you dont care for map movement since you need vertical movement. But in WvW, its actually a build. A version of boonbeast specifically.

    1. Then you start talking about 1hand Sword on a Ranger. Just no. You suggest the idea that someone is going to run Greatsword for Swoop with a 1hand Sword with a Warhorn apparnetly for competitive purposes? Even if they did and even if they were out of combat, that 1hand Sword jump has this weird hampering effect with its animation that hinders the Ranger just enough to where it barely gains any distance at all compared to what the tooltip says. If you're talking a foot race like this, the 600 range on Sword#2 is more like 300 range in terms of distance gained because of the weird animation at the beginning and the pause at the end before the Ranger is allowed to move with WASD afterwards. And upon that man, that build would be terrible in combat regardless of if it was DPS or Bunker, doesn't matter. Those weapon sets would be hot garbage together. The days of old Boonbeast setups have been looooooong gone for awhile now man. Sword/Warhorn/Greatsword would get you jacked up in a hurry if you tried to run it in pvp or wvw.

    That "weird animation" is called a cast time. Its still faster. And sure, as I said, its redundant anyway. Youre ahead. And sure it wouldnt be good for 1v1s or teamfights. But neither is thief, is it? The point is to have a hypothetical thief analogue that can move across the map if they were horizontal.

    1. And then War I'm not going to discuss because it's slower than Ranger and Ranger is slower than Thief, and the same mistakes were made while viewing the breakdown, concerning not taking into account the hampering of movement from animations. A good example on War is GS#3 Whirlwind. That skill has some serious animation hampering. It doesn't boost you ahead nearly as much as the tooltip would make you think. Using a WW alongside of a guy who was just running with Swiftness 33%, would only put you ahead maybe 60-80 range from him, due to how the animation actually works.

    Its slower than ranger, yes. Its faster than thief. I did not make any mistakes. I counted the animation and stated it. It boosts you by exactly as much as I have said.

    At any rate man, the purpose of my comparisons were to use realistic build structures for pvp while being in combat. The purpose was not to point out theoretical weird run builds designed for GW1 Droknar's Forge run. I could do the same thing for Thief, point out of a bunch theoretical options that could improve its movement speed and init gain, ect ect, but that's unrealistic.

    You couldnt. Youre pretty much hitting the cap. Roll for initiative, perhaps, but that barely boosts you, and then youre tapped out. The purpose was to show that in horizontal movement thief is faster than ranger and warrior, and you failed to show that at all, because its not true.

    But just to humour you, what if it was in-combat? Well lets start with warrior. Its easier. 12600 over 16.45 remains the same, its not affected by in combat vs out of combat. So, 23.5 seconds of swiftness movement. Thats 280 units per second. So 23.5*280= 6580. For a total of 19180 units in 40 seconds. To compare, thief has the 7200 over 8. So, 32 seconds of movement. Lets be very generous and assume thief has 50% extra movement speed during the entire 32 seconds (needless to say, he wont). Thats 32*315= 10080. For a total of 17280. Thats almost 2k less. And that was with me being very generous. If we instead assume realistically the thief only has, lets say, 12 seconds of 50% movement, then its only 16580. Almost 3k less. Yeah, pretty rough for the thief, innit?

    You maths are kinda off by a bit
    a) For example you didn't calculate that Thief can use Dash (450 yards yard range) x6times in those 40 sec
    (2 in start + once every 10 sec) .

    So I didnt. Although its 5 times, not 6. 3 at the start, then one every 10 seconds, but you dont start with dash. Thats 750 units. Less far behind, but still behind.

    b) The 50% speed bonus on stealth is translated into 36-37% movement speed in combat

    Well, I did say "its about 10 units or so". 9 to be precise. You throw in about, idk, 110 units. Its still behind.

    c) Combining those 2 , you will get out of combat faster without being him and your 50% out of combat speed in stealth will be fully enabled

    Nah, if you combine those 2 thief still falls behind by a lot.

    and d) if you stealth , he cannot outrun you , because he cannot find you :)

    Thats not how outrunning is defined.

    Yeah it seems both of us haven't played much GW2 :)
    Daredevil has 3 dodges from the start + once per 10 sec . So in total is 7 in 40 sec

    Wait did I mess up my math? Oh its 6. Not 7. You dont start with dash. You start with shortbow 5, since initiative is more important to recharge.

    In an combat race , you start with the more easy available spell , in our case is Dash . Otherwise the delay from switching weapon + use the Arrow can be fatal . You can equip it while on the Dash animation

    Nope, see above.

    The 50% speed bonus on stealth is translated into 36-37% movement speed in combat
    Druids and Warriors with swiftness its 33%

    Percentage is meaningless, you want the real unit. That is a difference of 9 units per second. So after 40 seconds of running, youd barely be at 360. Its not much.

    I pretty sure the Thiefs will get out of combat faster and his 50% speed will be enabled :)

    He wont actually. And this is not what the race is about. And the 50% speed is meaningless, as seen above.

    a) Nope see above , you start with the Dash , you will waste 0,5 sec by equipping the shortbow and till the arrow its traveled .
    Its more scientific acceptable to do that while you are on the Dash animation
    edit: With my method (7 dashes) , i can use 2 Dash to give my resources time to recuperate + travel 900 more yards

    You dont. You dont equip shortbow, and you start with shortbow because initiative is more important of a resource than endurance. Its 1.5 units per second when youre regening endurance, vs 150 per second with shortbow 5. PRetty big.

    b)Its not 9 units .
    Its 3% difference movement increased x 40 sec = the number will be inflating even after that = they will never catch you

    Its literally 9 units per second. Its 391 units per second vs 400 units per second. Its so little its irrelevant.

    c) I pretty sure the Thiefs will get out of combat faster and his 50% speed will be enabled will travel even more distance

    Again, we start out of combat. And again, the speed makes close to no difference.

    a)No sorry , but with your method you will be off by 900 yards less from your goal .
    Try to imagine the first dodge , as a free 450 yard Leap > arrow > dodge .
    With your method and 5 dodges , you will be 900 yard less and your resources will not have time to be restored

    I hate having to repeat myself. The first dodge gives you about 150 units compared to just walking. The first infiltrators arrow gives you 500 units compared to just walking. And initiative is worth more than endurance. So is it now clear why you do not start with a dash? Good.

    b) If we start out of combat , then the Warrior + Druid will be running by 33% vs 50% of you .
    It will be 17% difference in speed/distance x40 sec = 2040 yards and will be increasing by the second

    Out of combat movement speed has a cap. At 400. With swiftness you reach 391 movement speed. So 50% only gains 9 units per seconds. So no, at most its 360 units if you ran 40 seconds with 50% vs someone with 33%. Not 2040 or anywhere close to it.

    Try to think it more rational , you will outrun them both:)
    Or try to stealth and hide them :)

    The one who needs to "think more rational" is the one who doesnt understand basic concepts. Do not make me repeat myself again.

    a)Again you don't really understand .
    Dodge >Arrow > 2x FREE DODGES > arrow > dodges
    With your calculation you will not gain 900 yard extra speed ...

    No I do understand. I understand you do not understand how this works. Let me explain. If you do the order "dodge > Arrow" you lose a total of 350 units at the start, and then another 150 for the second you wasted. On the other hand, if you do "Arrow > dodge", you gain 350 units and gain another 150 by not wasting a second. The latter moves you more.

    b) In combat has a cap ...
    Out of combat has not ...

    Yes it does. Do not argue without understanding the basics.

    a)Again read the basic too ...
    Swiftness doesn't put near the 400 cap
    Dont try to say something that you don't really understand

    You really are making me repeat myself? Ugh. So, lets do the math. Swiftness is 33% speedboost. You start with 294 base movement speed out of combat. 294*1.33= 391. The cap is 400. So you are literally just 9 units below cap. Thats 9 units per second. Got it now?

    b) its free 2x dodges
    Its free 900 yards
    Dodge >Arrow > 2x FREE DODGES > arrow > dodges

    No its not? You dont get anything. You just start regenerating endurance 1 second faster. Like, what if I instead use arrow, then dodge thrice, then arrow again? I gain distance. Simple, isnt it?

    With you method , you will run out resources faster...

    ... no? You start regenerating resources faster with my method.

    a) Again why do you make me repeat myself...
    In the PvP area the movements speed is extremly Lowered by default .
    Its not near the 294 ...
    Its like in 194-205

    .... no? Its not? What the bloody hell are you talking about. Movement speed and its cap doesnt change other than in-combat vs out of combat. If it did ,the wiki would say it. Are you just a bad troll?

    b) You have 2x dodges that allows you to recuperate the Arrow and not run out of resources after 15 sec .
    Its called Resources management !

    No, its called "Not understanding how resources work". You regenerate the arrow as soon as you use it. By dashing first you lose 1 second of initiative regeneration and gain nothing. You lose distance traveled. Its wrong. Do you finally get it?

    a) PvE out of combat speed is different from the PvP ones .
    Just go in the PvE and and use any speed boost , you will know the difference ....

    NO IT IS NOT. If that were the case the wiki article would mention it. It doesnt. Because that isnt the case. And I did. What I found was "speed was the exact same". Youre really just that dense, arent you?

    b) With you method you will run out of resources in less than a min (3 Arrows-5 dodges)
    By my calculations you will waste 2xFREE DODGES , GAIN 900 YARD DISTANCE and then have your remaining 5x dodges + 3 arrows to manage as you wish

    Now youre just saying words without meaning. No, with my method I will not run out of resources any faster than with your method. I will however regain resources faster than with your method. I do not waste "anything". I gain 150 units distance compared to your method. Are you just a new player who doesnt know how GW2 works yet?

    I understand that you are new to the game . But ask me next time . I played from Beta till the release of HoT

    Yeah right. The guy who doesnt understand resources or even how movement speed works totally "played since the beta". Look either youre new, or youre a troll. Either way, youre wrong, I have shown youre wrong, and youre getting on my nerves. So accept that youre wrong, or just shut up.

    You simply lack some informations that it kinda ''stealthy'' .
    Its ok because you are kinda new .
    The Warclaw moves at 394 u/s in WvWvW (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mount/Mount_speed_research)
    And players with Swiftness + no other mobility skills get outpaced by Warclaws .

    Oh wow, you really just dont know anything. Here is the actual warclaws speed. Its not 394. Its 453. And thats without using the mobility skill. No duh players with swiftness get outpaced, Warclaw is a lot faster.

    204 u/s x33% swiftness = 271 u/s for a player in the PvP areas

    This is just numbers you pulled out of your kitten with no basis in anything.

    394-271 = 122 u/s (the mount gains 120 yards each second , outpacing the player )

    453 vs 394. Again, wrong, and completely pulled out of your kitten. The funny thing is, you literally had a piece of evidence in your hands where you could see that youre wrong. Remember this? Its the mount speed research tab you poorly linked. Lets look at this little line: "On foot: WvW; 100% Swiftness Speed: 392.". Now, PvE: "Land; 100% Swiftness Speed: 392". Whats this? Its literally the same? Who would ever have guessed.

    I am sorry , but you are wrong ...

    I am not, but you clearly are. And youre not sorry, youre a troll.

  • Naqam a.6521Naqam a.6521 Member ✭✭
    edited September 13, 2020

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    @UNOwen.7132 lol you just say things that are wrong man.

    1. Rangers and Warriors do not outpace thief in a horizontal race. I don't understand how you can possibly argue with the breakdown that I presented.

    Because the breakdown you presented is incorrect, leaves out a lot of things.

    1. You said that: "Out of combat, 33% or 50% doesnt make a difference" which is silly because in pvp you're always in combat. Even if we were talking out of combat, the DP Daredevil is still clearly faster. As much can be viewed from the breakdown.

    We were talking about a horizontal race. That does not include in-combat. And if we talk out of combat, Ranger is clearly much faster, as you can see from the corrected breakdown. Oh and fun fact: If we were talking in-combat, warrior actually pulls ahead a lot, because they spend less time just running and more time in movement.

    1. Then you say: "Additionally in order to obtain anything close to permastealth, thief has to slow down a lot. Far more than they get from it. So, not a point." It's not about permastealth, it's about the small stealths like their heal skill, which is 24s CD traited for a 6s +50% movement, or Steal if it is traited to grant stealth with significantly large reduction in CD. Between just the heal and steal, not counting any other sources of stealth, a PD Core or DP dd is essentially getting 9s of +50% movement per 24s. That's something like 40% uptime of +50% movement my dude. So if they cycle the usage wisely, they use the porting during the 15s that the 50% movement is on CD, and run with the 50% movement for 9s while init is building back up. There is an extremely small margin of time where the thief has to WASD with only 33% Swift, very small margin of time. So yeah, that +50% movement from stealth is extremely significant in this breakdown, whether you look at from in combat or out.

    "that's 50% movement on a class that can perma stealth". Quite literally what you wrote. Dont complain that I point out something you say yourself. Its not significant at all, because out of combat 33% and 50% is nearly identical (its a difference of 10 movement speed or so), and in-combat its inferior to spending more time in movement skills (if you want, I can break down in-combat movement as well. Just as a spoiler: Warrior and Ranger are faster).

    1. Shadow Step is 40s when traited in Shadow Arts my dude.

    Ah, right, fair enough.

    1. You said: "Lets put it to 40 seconds, shall we? So, we get at most 1 shadowstep" No you get 2x. You use Shadow Step immediately at the start of the 60s timer, as well as 2x SB#5s. I already pointed this out in the breakdown. You do this early, first skills used, so that they come off CD faster during the 60s timer. My good bro, you get to use Shadow Step twice in the 60s race. And don't worry, I already calculated the rest of the breakdown for Range/War in the same way with their skill usage.

    And even with that, Ranger is ahead. Without even using sword. And no, you didnt. You forgot a lot of things, as I pointed out, and made a lot of wrong assumptions.

    1. Then you go on to say: "Infiltrators arrow is not instant either. Theyre both about a second, but swoop carries you a tiny bit further." again, you're not noticing something important for this comparison. The SB#5 does have an animation time but it DOES NOT stop your WASD movement walking speed while casting it. So the Thief is still moving with WASD while the animation begins, an when it ends it instantly moves him with no interruption to the WASD movement. Swoop and Gazelle F2 or Bull's Charge or Rush, REPLACE all WASD movement and actually cause small pauses to it before and after the animations. A Swoop may be 1000 range but it is on a 10s CD that is effectively an 11s CD because the recharge doesn't begin until the 1s animation ends. The Sb#5 on the other hand, does not interrupt the initiative regen whatsoever and maintains a sound 2x 900 range uses per 12s = 1800 range per 12s, all the while not interrupting the WASD movement of the Thief at all, nor does Shadow Step or Steal.

    Why does it stopping WASD movement matter, exactly? After you use Shortbow 5, no matter how or where you move, your location is locked in. You will always travel 900 units from your original point. Thats 900 units per second. Meanwhile Rush and swoop and whatever all finish their full animation also in a second, and you can move freely instantly. Thats 1200 units per second. Thats more distance covered in the same time. That is all that matters. I get what youre trying to do, muddle the waters to hide important aspects that dismantle your argument, but it doesnt work.

    1. And then this here is just entirely and completely incorrect in every possible way. You said that: "You get both Bird Swoop and Gazelle Charge, actually. You cant swap pets in-combat, but were not looking at in-combat. So thats 1200 on 12 seconds and Swoops 1200 on 18 seconds. Theyre also both about a second." OK so first, we are looking at in-combat because that's what happens in a pvp setting. When you're talking about things chasing each other and running from each other, that's what's happening, people in combat. When a Soulbeast is in combat it can't swap pets. Even if we were talking about out of combat, you are seriously not understanding some things about Ranger here. Again, Soulbeast does not use Swiftness skills. It relies on Beastmastery trait merge for a flat 30% movement speed WHILE MERGED. When you try to swap pets, they go on a 9s CD and during that 9s you do not benefit the 30% movement. Even if you were using Swiftness from the bird when it was unmerged, it only lasts 10s and it takes time to cast. Then when you swap to the Gazelle the pet swap goes on 9s CD and merge will be on a 10s CD after you left bird. So now you swap to Gazelle and you have to stand there and wait for the merge CD to come off timer before you can even get into the Gazelle to use the F2. So theoretically I see what you're trying to argue but it doesn't pan out in the way that you were thinking because of merge timer. In other words, without writing a thesis on this one aspect, you'll make better distance by camping beast mode in Gazelle for the 30% movement baseline and F2 Charge on a 13s cycle. Trying to swap pets and adding in that 9 to 10s buffer to wait to remerge will kill your skill usage cycling & distance.

    Lots to unpack here. Let me just copy the important parts and address them one by one.

    OK so first, we are looking at in-combat because that's what happens in a pvp setting

    No we arent. Were talking about a horizontal race. You dont have a race in-combat. And the original context was about cross-map movement. You know, going to decap and +1? You also do that out of combat. So already youre very wrong.

    Again, Soulbeast does not use Swiftness skills

    Oh, do they now?. Yeah thats a load of kitten. And you use it while merged. And then there are stances or warhorn or whatever.

    1. Then you say: "You get swiftness from owl + your choice between stances, warhorn, or whatever. You hit the max cap all the same." OK first of all, whatever you're referencing is not going to be any faster than any other Soulbeast build aside from some +3% gain in movement from having Swiftness over merge trait. Upon that, using warhorn and stances and owl on a Soulbeast is not a practical build to be using in pvp. You need to be using Longbow and Greatsword, and Smokescale, because when you merge and go into combat you cannot swap pets and you need the Smokescale the most for obvious reasons. So whatever you're referencing here is about as far away as it could get from a realistic build comparison.

    Its not much of a boost, but its a boost. And again, talking out of combat, so you hit the movement speed cap. And sure its not a practical build because you dont care for map movement since you need vertical movement. But in WvW, its actually a build. A version of boonbeast specifically.

    1. Then you start talking about 1hand Sword on a Ranger. Just no. You suggest the idea that someone is going to run Greatsword for Swoop with a 1hand Sword with a Warhorn apparnetly for competitive purposes? Even if they did and even if they were out of combat, that 1hand Sword jump has this weird hampering effect with its animation that hinders the Ranger just enough to where it barely gains any distance at all compared to what the tooltip says. If you're talking a foot race like this, the 600 range on Sword#2 is more like 300 range in terms of distance gained because of the weird animation at the beginning and the pause at the end before the Ranger is allowed to move with WASD afterwards. And upon that man, that build would be terrible in combat regardless of if it was DPS or Bunker, doesn't matter. Those weapon sets would be hot garbage together. The days of old Boonbeast setups have been looooooong gone for awhile now man. Sword/Warhorn/Greatsword would get you jacked up in a hurry if you tried to run it in pvp or wvw.

    That "weird animation" is called a cast time. Its still faster. And sure, as I said, its redundant anyway. Youre ahead. And sure it wouldnt be good for 1v1s or teamfights. But neither is thief, is it? The point is to have a hypothetical thief analogue that can move across the map if they were horizontal.

    1. And then War I'm not going to discuss because it's slower than Ranger and Ranger is slower than Thief, and the same mistakes were made while viewing the breakdown, concerning not taking into account the hampering of movement from animations. A good example on War is GS#3 Whirlwind. That skill has some serious animation hampering. It doesn't boost you ahead nearly as much as the tooltip would make you think. Using a WW alongside of a guy who was just running with Swiftness 33%, would only put you ahead maybe 60-80 range from him, due to how the animation actually works.

    Its slower than ranger, yes. Its faster than thief. I did not make any mistakes. I counted the animation and stated it. It boosts you by exactly as much as I have said.

    At any rate man, the purpose of my comparisons were to use realistic build structures for pvp while being in combat. The purpose was not to point out theoretical weird run builds designed for GW1 Droknar's Forge run. I could do the same thing for Thief, point out of a bunch theoretical options that could improve its movement speed and init gain, ect ect, but that's unrealistic.

    You couldnt. Youre pretty much hitting the cap. Roll for initiative, perhaps, but that barely boosts you, and then youre tapped out. The purpose was to show that in horizontal movement thief is faster than ranger and warrior, and you failed to show that at all, because its not true.

    But just to humour you, what if it was in-combat? Well lets start with warrior. Its easier. 12600 over 16.45 remains the same, its not affected by in combat vs out of combat. So, 23.5 seconds of swiftness movement. Thats 280 units per second. So 23.5*280= 6580. For a total of 19180 units in 40 seconds. To compare, thief has the 7200 over 8. So, 32 seconds of movement. Lets be very generous and assume thief has 50% extra movement speed during the entire 32 seconds (needless to say, he wont). Thats 32*315= 10080. For a total of 17280. Thats almost 2k less. And that was with me being very generous. If we instead assume realistically the thief only has, lets say, 12 seconds of 50% movement, then its only 16580. Almost 3k less. Yeah, pretty rough for the thief, innit?

    You maths are kinda off by a bit
    a) For example you didn't calculate that Thief can use Dash (450 yards yard range) x6times in those 40 sec
    (2 in start + once every 10 sec) .

    So I didnt. Although its 5 times, not 6. 3 at the start, then one every 10 seconds, but you dont start with dash. Thats 750 units. Less far behind, but still behind.

    b) The 50% speed bonus on stealth is translated into 36-37% movement speed in combat

    Well, I did say "its about 10 units or so". 9 to be precise. You throw in about, idk, 110 units. Its still behind.

    c) Combining those 2 , you will get out of combat faster without being him and your 50% out of combat speed in stealth will be fully enabled

    Nah, if you combine those 2 thief still falls behind by a lot.

    and d) if you stealth , he cannot outrun you , because he cannot find you :)

    Thats not how outrunning is defined.

    Yeah it seems both of us haven't played much GW2 :)
    Daredevil has 3 dodges from the start + once per 10 sec . So in total is 7 in 40 sec

    Wait did I mess up my math? Oh its 6. Not 7. You dont start with dash. You start with shortbow 5, since initiative is more important to recharge.

    In an combat race , you start with the more easy available spell , in our case is Dash . Otherwise the delay from switching weapon + use the Arrow can be fatal . You can equip it while on the Dash animation

    Nope, see above.

    The 50% speed bonus on stealth is translated into 36-37% movement speed in combat
    Druids and Warriors with swiftness its 33%

    Percentage is meaningless, you want the real unit. That is a difference of 9 units per second. So after 40 seconds of running, youd barely be at 360. Its not much.

    I pretty sure the Thiefs will get out of combat faster and his 50% speed will be enabled :)

    He wont actually. And this is not what the race is about. And the 50% speed is meaningless, as seen above.

    a) Nope see above , you start with the Dash , you will waste 0,5 sec by equipping the shortbow and till the arrow its traveled .
    Its more scientific acceptable to do that while you are on the Dash animation
    edit: With my method (7 dashes) , i can use 2 Dash to give my resources time to recuperate + travel 900 more yards

    You dont. You dont equip shortbow, and you start with shortbow because initiative is more important of a resource than endurance. Its 1.5 units per second when youre regening endurance, vs 150 per second with shortbow 5. PRetty big.

    b)Its not 9 units .
    Its 3% difference movement increased x 40 sec = the number will be inflating even after that = they will never catch you

    Its literally 9 units per second. Its 391 units per second vs 400 units per second. Its so little its irrelevant.

    c) I pretty sure the Thiefs will get out of combat faster and his 50% speed will be enabled will travel even more distance

    Again, we start out of combat. And again, the speed makes close to no difference.

    a)No sorry , but with your method you will be off by 900 yards less from your goal .
    Try to imagine the first dodge , as a free 450 yard Leap > arrow > dodge .
    With your method and 5 dodges , you will be 900 yard less and your resources will not have time to be restored

    I hate having to repeat myself. The first dodge gives you about 150 units compared to just walking. The first infiltrators arrow gives you 500 units compared to just walking. And initiative is worth more than endurance. So is it now clear why you do not start with a dash? Good.

    b) If we start out of combat , then the Warrior + Druid will be running by 33% vs 50% of you .
    It will be 17% difference in speed/distance x40 sec = 2040 yards and will be increasing by the second

    Out of combat movement speed has a cap. At 400. With swiftness you reach 391 movement speed. So 50% only gains 9 units per seconds. So no, at most its 360 units if you ran 40 seconds with 50% vs someone with 33%. Not 2040 or anywhere close to it.

    Try to think it more rational , you will outrun them both:)
    Or try to stealth and hide them :)

    The one who needs to "think more rational" is the one who doesnt understand basic concepts. Do not make me repeat myself again.

    a)Again you don't really understand .
    Dodge >Arrow > 2x FREE DODGES > arrow > dodges
    With your calculation you will not gain 900 yard extra speed ...

    No I do understand. I understand you do not understand how this works. Let me explain. If you do the order "dodge > Arrow" you lose a total of 350 units at the start, and then another 150 for the second you wasted. On the other hand, if you do "Arrow > dodge", you gain 350 units and gain another 150 by not wasting a second. The latter moves you more.

    b) In combat has a cap ...
    Out of combat has not ...

    Yes it does. Do not argue without understanding the basics.

    a)Again read the basic too ...
    Swiftness doesn't put near the 400 cap
    Dont try to say something that you don't really understand

    You really are making me repeat myself? Ugh. So, lets do the math. Swiftness is 33% speedboost. You start with 294 base movement speed out of combat. 294*1.33= 391. The cap is 400. So you are literally just 9 units below cap. Thats 9 units per second. Got it now?

    b) its free 2x dodges
    Its free 900 yards
    Dodge >Arrow > 2x FREE DODGES > arrow > dodges

    No its not? You dont get anything. You just start regenerating endurance 1 second faster. Like, what if I instead use arrow, then dodge thrice, then arrow again? I gain distance. Simple, isnt it?

    With you method , you will run out resources faster...

    ... no? You start regenerating resources faster with my method.

    a) Again why do you make me repeat myself...
    In the PvP area the movements speed is extremly Lowered by default .
    Its not near the 294 ...
    Its like in 194-205

    .... no? Its not? What the bloody hell are you talking about. Movement speed and its cap doesnt change other than in-combat vs out of combat. If it did ,the wiki would say it. Are you just a bad troll?

    b) You have 2x dodges that allows you to recuperate the Arrow and not run out of resources after 15 sec .
    Its called Resources management !

    No, its called "Not understanding how resources work". You regenerate the arrow as soon as you use it. By dashing first you lose 1 second of initiative regeneration and gain nothing. You lose distance traveled. Its wrong. Do you finally get it?

    a) PvE out of combat speed is different from the PvP ones .
    Just go in the PvE and and use any speed boost , you will know the difference ....

    NO IT IS NOT. If that were the case the wiki article would mention it. It doesnt. Because that isnt the case. And I did. What I found was "speed was the exact same". Youre really just that dense, arent you?

    b) With you method you will run out of resources in less than a min (3 Arrows-5 dodges)
    By my calculations you will waste 2xFREE DODGES , GAIN 900 YARD DISTANCE and then have your remaining 5x dodges + 3 arrows to manage as you wish

    Now youre just saying words without meaning. No, with my method I will not run out of resources any faster than with your method. I will however regain resources faster than with your method. I do not waste "anything". I gain 150 units distance compared to your method. Are you just a new player who doesnt know how GW2 works yet?

    I understand that you are new to the game . But ask me next time . I played from Beta till the release of HoT

    Yeah right. The guy who doesnt understand resources or even how movement speed works totally "played since the beta". Look either youre new, or youre a troll. Either way, youre wrong, I have shown youre wrong, and youre getting on my nerves. So accept that youre wrong, or just shut up.

    You simply lack some informations that it kinda ''stealthy'' .
    Its ok because you are kinda new .
    The Warclaw moves at 394 u/s in WvWvW (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mount/Mount_speed_research)
    And players with Swiftness + no other mobility skills get outpaced by Warclaws .

    Oh wow, you really just dont know anything. Here is the actual warclaws speed. Its not 394. Its 453. And thats without using the mobility skill. No duh players with swiftness get outpaced, Warclaw is a lot faster.

    204 u/s x33% swiftness = 271 u/s for a player in the PvP areas

    This is just numbers you pulled out of your kitten with no basis in anything.

    394-271 = 122 u/s (the mount gains 120 yards each second , outpacing the player )

    453 vs 394. Again, wrong, and completely pulled out of your kitten. The funny thing is, you literally had a piece of evidence in your hands where you could see that youre wrong. Remember this? Its the mount speed research tab you poorly linked. Lets look at this little line: "On foot: WvW; 100% Swiftness Speed: 392.". Now, PvE: "Land; 100% Swiftness Speed: 392". Whats this? Its literally the same? Who would ever have guessed.

    I am sorry , but you are wrong ...

    I am not, but you clearly are. And youre not sorry, youre a troll.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Warclaw
    Its movement speed in PvE is about 539 u/s
    Its base Movement Speed in WvW is about 453 u/s

    If the Warclaw is 453 u/s and the person is 394 in WvWvW , we wouldnt see such humogous distance per sec
    Each second the effect is trippled in WvWvW

    You see
    I got it right that PvP + PvE speed have different values :)

    You youngster , i forgive you for not researching properly

    1 month

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    @UNOwen.7132 lol you just say things that are wrong man.

    1. Rangers and Warriors do not outpace thief in a horizontal race. I don't understand how you can possibly argue with the breakdown that I presented.

    Because the breakdown you presented is incorrect, leaves out a lot of things.

    1. You said that: "Out of combat, 33% or 50% doesnt make a difference" which is silly because in pvp you're always in combat. Even if we were talking out of combat, the DP Daredevil is still clearly faster. As much can be viewed from the breakdown.

    We were talking about a horizontal race. That does not include in-combat. And if we talk out of combat, Ranger is clearly much faster, as you can see from the corrected breakdown. Oh and fun fact: If we were talking in-combat, warrior actually pulls ahead a lot, because they spend less time just running and more time in movement.

    1. Then you say: "Additionally in order to obtain anything close to permastealth, thief has to slow down a lot. Far more than they get from it. So, not a point." It's not about permastealth, it's about the small stealths like their heal skill, which is 24s CD traited for a 6s +50% movement, or Steal if it is traited to grant stealth with significantly large reduction in CD. Between just the heal and steal, not counting any other sources of stealth, a PD Core or DP dd is essentially getting 9s of +50% movement per 24s. That's something like 40% uptime of +50% movement my dude. So if they cycle the usage wisely, they use the porting during the 15s that the 50% movement is on CD, and run with the 50% movement for 9s while init is building back up. There is an extremely small margin of time where the thief has to WASD with only 33% Swift, very small margin of time. So yeah, that +50% movement from stealth is extremely significant in this breakdown, whether you look at from in combat or out.

    "that's 50% movement on a class that can perma stealth". Quite literally what you wrote. Dont complain that I point out something you say yourself. Its not significant at all, because out of combat 33% and 50% is nearly identical (its a difference of 10 movement speed or so), and in-combat its inferior to spending more time in movement skills (if you want, I can break down in-combat movement as well. Just as a spoiler: Warrior and Ranger are faster).

    1. Shadow Step is 40s when traited in Shadow Arts my dude.

    Ah, right, fair enough.

    1. You said: "Lets put it to 40 seconds, shall we? So, we get at most 1 shadowstep" No you get 2x. You use Shadow Step immediately at the start of the 60s timer, as well as 2x SB#5s. I already pointed this out in the breakdown. You do this early, first skills used, so that they come off CD faster during the 60s timer. My good bro, you get to use Shadow Step twice in the 60s race. And don't worry, I already calculated the rest of the breakdown for Range/War in the same way with their skill usage.

    And even with that, Ranger is ahead. Without even using sword. And no, you didnt. You forgot a lot of things, as I pointed out, and made a lot of wrong assumptions.

    1. Then you go on to say: "Infiltrators arrow is not instant either. Theyre both about a second, but swoop carries you a tiny bit further." again, you're not noticing something important for this comparison. The SB#5 does have an animation time but it DOES NOT stop your WASD movement walking speed while casting it. So the Thief is still moving with WASD while the animation begins, an when it ends it instantly moves him with no interruption to the WASD movement. Swoop and Gazelle F2 or Bull's Charge or Rush, REPLACE all WASD movement and actually cause small pauses to it before and after the animations. A Swoop may be 1000 range but it is on a 10s CD that is effectively an 11s CD because the recharge doesn't begin until the 1s animation ends. The Sb#5 on the other hand, does not interrupt the initiative regen whatsoever and maintains a sound 2x 900 range uses per 12s = 1800 range per 12s, all the while not interrupting the WASD movement of the Thief at all, nor does Shadow Step or Steal.

    Why does it stopping WASD movement matter, exactly? After you use Shortbow 5, no matter how or where you move, your location is locked in. You will always travel 900 units from your original point. Thats 900 units per second. Meanwhile Rush and swoop and whatever all finish their full animation also in a second, and you can move freely instantly. Thats 1200 units per second. Thats more distance covered in the same time. That is all that matters. I get what youre trying to do, muddle the waters to hide important aspects that dismantle your argument, but it doesnt work.

    1. And then this here is just entirely and completely incorrect in every possible way. You said that: "You get both Bird Swoop and Gazelle Charge, actually. You cant swap pets in-combat, but were not looking at in-combat. So thats 1200 on 12 seconds and Swoops 1200 on 18 seconds. Theyre also both about a second." OK so first, we are looking at in-combat because that's what happens in a pvp setting. When you're talking about things chasing each other and running from each other, that's what's happening, people in combat. When a Soulbeast is in combat it can't swap pets. Even if we were talking about out of combat, you are seriously not understanding some things about Ranger here. Again, Soulbeast does not use Swiftness skills. It relies on Beastmastery trait merge for a flat 30% movement speed WHILE MERGED. When you try to swap pets, they go on a 9s CD and during that 9s you do not benefit the 30% movement. Even if you were using Swiftness from the bird when it was unmerged, it only lasts 10s and it takes time to cast. Then when you swap to the Gazelle the pet swap goes on 9s CD and merge will be on a 10s CD after you left bird. So now you swap to Gazelle and you have to stand there and wait for the merge CD to come off timer before you can even get into the Gazelle to use the F2. So theoretically I see what you're trying to argue but it doesn't pan out in the way that you were thinking because of merge timer. In other words, without writing a thesis on this one aspect, you'll make better distance by camping beast mode in Gazelle for the 30% movement baseline and F2 Charge on a 13s cycle. Trying to swap pets and adding in that 9 to 10s buffer to wait to remerge will kill your skill usage cycling & distance.

    Lots to unpack here. Let me just copy the important parts and address them one by one.

    OK so first, we are looking at in-combat because that's what happens in a pvp setting

    No we arent. Were talking about a horizontal race. You dont have a race in-combat. And the original context was about cross-map movement. You know, going to decap and +1? You also do that out of combat. So already youre very wrong.

    Again, Soulbeast does not use Swiftness skills

    Oh, do they now?. Yeah thats a load of kitten. And you use it while merged. And then there are stances or warhorn or whatever.

    1. Then you say: "You get swiftness from owl + your choice between stances, warhorn, or whatever. You hit the max cap all the same." OK first of all, whatever you're referencing is not going to be any faster than any other Soulbeast build aside from some +3% gain in movement from having Swiftness over merge trait. Upon that, using warhorn and stances and owl on a Soulbeast is not a practical build to be using in pvp. You need to be using Longbow and Greatsword, and Smokescale, because when you merge and go into combat you cannot swap pets and you need the Smokescale the most for obvious reasons. So whatever you're referencing here is about as far away as it could get from a realistic build comparison.

    Its not much of a boost, but its a boost. And again, talking out of combat, so you hit the movement speed cap. And sure its not a practical build because you dont care for map movement since you need vertical movement. But in WvW, its actually a build. A version of boonbeast specifically.

    1. Then you start talking about 1hand Sword on a Ranger. Just no. You suggest the idea that someone is going to run Greatsword for Swoop with a 1hand Sword with a Warhorn apparnetly for competitive purposes? Even if they did and even if they were out of combat, that 1hand Sword jump has this weird hampering effect with its animation that hinders the Ranger just enough to where it barely gains any distance at all compared to what the tooltip says. If you're talking a foot race like this, the 600 range on Sword#2 is more like 300 range in terms of distance gained because of the weird animation at the beginning and the pause at the end before the Ranger is allowed to move with WASD afterwards. And upon that man, that build would be terrible in combat regardless of if it was DPS or Bunker, doesn't matter. Those weapon sets would be hot garbage together. The days of old Boonbeast setups have been looooooong gone for awhile now man. Sword/Warhorn/Greatsword would get you jacked up in a hurry if you tried to run it in pvp or wvw.

    That "weird animation" is called a cast time. Its still faster. And sure, as I said, its redundant anyway. Youre ahead. And sure it wouldnt be good for 1v1s or teamfights. But neither is thief, is it? The point is to have a hypothetical thief analogue that can move across the map if they were horizontal.

    1. And then War I'm not going to discuss because it's slower than Ranger and Ranger is slower than Thief, and the same mistakes were made while viewing the breakdown, concerning not taking into account the hampering of movement from animations. A good example on War is GS#3 Whirlwind. That skill has some serious animation hampering. It doesn't boost you ahead nearly as much as the tooltip would make you think. Using a WW alongside of a guy who was just running with Swiftness 33%, would only put you ahead maybe 60-80 range from him, due to how the animation actually works.

    Its slower than ranger, yes. Its faster than thief. I did not make any mistakes. I counted the animation and stated it. It boosts you by exactly as much as I have said.

    At any rate man, the purpose of my comparisons were to use realistic build structures for pvp while being in combat. The purpose was not to point out theoretical weird run builds designed for GW1 Droknar's Forge run. I could do the same thing for Thief, point out of a bunch theoretical options that could improve its movement speed and init gain, ect ect, but that's unrealistic.

    You couldnt. Youre pretty much hitting the cap. Roll for initiative, perhaps, but that barely boosts you, and then youre tapped out. The purpose was to show that in horizontal movement thief is faster than ranger and warrior, and you failed to show that at all, because its not true.

    But just to humour you, what if it was in-combat? Well lets start with warrior. Its easier. 12600 over 16.45 remains the same, its not affected by in combat vs out of combat. So, 23.5 seconds of swiftness movement. Thats 280 units per second. So 23.5*280= 6580. For a total of 19180 units in 40 seconds. To compare, thief has the 7200 over 8. So, 32 seconds of movement. Lets be very generous and assume thief has 50% extra movement speed during the entire 32 seconds (needless to say, he wont). Thats 32*315= 10080. For a total of 17280. Thats almost 2k less. And that was with me being very generous. If we instead assume realistically the thief only has, lets say, 12 seconds of 50% movement, then its only 16580. Almost 3k less. Yeah, pretty rough for the thief, innit?

    You maths are kinda off by a bit
    a) For example you didn't calculate that Thief can use Dash (450 yards yard range) x6times in those 40 sec
    (2 in start + once every 10 sec) .

    So I didnt. Although its 5 times, not 6. 3 at the start, then one every 10 seconds, but you dont start with dash. Thats 750 units. Less far behind, but still behind.

    b) The 50% speed bonus on stealth is translated into 36-37% movement speed in combat

    Well, I did say "its about 10 units or so". 9 to be precise. You throw in about, idk, 110 units. Its still behind.

    c) Combining those 2 , you will get out of combat faster without being him and your 50% out of combat speed in stealth will be fully enabled

    Nah, if you combine those 2 thief still falls behind by a lot.

    and d) if you stealth , he cannot outrun you , because he cannot find you :)

    Thats not how outrunning is defined.

    Yeah it seems both of us haven't played much GW2 :)
    Daredevil has 3 dodges from the start + once per 10 sec . So in total is 7 in 40 sec

    Wait did I mess up my math? Oh its 6. Not 7. You dont start with dash. You start with shortbow 5, since initiative is more important to recharge.

    In an combat race , you start with the more easy available spell , in our case is Dash . Otherwise the delay from switching weapon + use the Arrow can be fatal . You can equip it while on the Dash animation

    Nope, see above.

    The 50% speed bonus on stealth is translated into 36-37% movement speed in combat
    Druids and Warriors with swiftness its 33%

    Percentage is meaningless, you want the real unit. That is a difference of 9 units per second. So after 40 seconds of running, youd barely be at 360. Its not much.

    I pretty sure the Thiefs will get out of combat faster and his 50% speed will be enabled :)

    He wont actually. And this is not what the race is about. And the 50% speed is meaningless, as seen above.

    a) Nope see above , you start with the Dash , you will waste 0,5 sec by equipping the shortbow and till the arrow its traveled .
    Its more scientific acceptable to do that while you are on the Dash animation
    edit: With my method (7 dashes) , i can use 2 Dash to give my resources time to recuperate + travel 900 more yards

    You dont. You dont equip shortbow, and you start with shortbow because initiative is more important of a resource than endurance. Its 1.5 units per second when youre regening endurance, vs 150 per second with shortbow 5. PRetty big.

    b)Its not 9 units .
    Its 3% difference movement increased x 40 sec = the number will be inflating even after that = they will never catch you

    Its literally 9 units per second. Its 391 units per second vs 400 units per second. Its so little its irrelevant.

    c) I pretty sure the Thiefs will get out of combat faster and his 50% speed will be enabled will travel even more distance

    Again, we start out of combat. And again, the speed makes close to no difference.

    a)No sorry , but with your method you will be off by 900 yards less from your goal .
    Try to imagine the first dodge , as a free 450 yard Leap > arrow > dodge .
    With your method and 5 dodges , you will be 900 yard less and your resources will not have time to be restored

    I hate having to repeat myself. The first dodge gives you about 150 units compared to just walking. The first infiltrators arrow gives you 500 units compared to just walking. And initiative is worth more than endurance. So is it now clear why you do not start with a dash? Good.

    b) If we start out of combat , then the Warrior + Druid will be running by 33% vs 50% of you .
    It will be 17% difference in speed/distance x40 sec = 2040 yards and will be increasing by the second

    Out of combat movement speed has a cap. At 400. With swiftness you reach 391 movement speed. So 50% only gains 9 units per seconds. So no, at most its 360 units if you ran 40 seconds with 50% vs someone with 33%. Not 2040 or anywhere close to it.

    Try to think it more rational , you will outrun them both:)
    Or try to stealth and hide them :)

    The one who needs to "think more rational" is the one who doesnt understand basic concepts. Do not make me repeat myself again.

    a)Again you don't really understand .
    Dodge >Arrow > 2x FREE DODGES > arrow > dodges
    With your calculation you will not gain 900 yard extra speed ...

    No I do understand. I understand you do not understand how this works. Let me explain. If you do the order "dodge > Arrow" you lose a total of 350 units at the start, and then another 150 for the second you wasted. On the other hand, if you do "Arrow > dodge", you gain 350 units and gain another 150 by not wasting a second. The latter moves you more.

    b) In combat has a cap ...
    Out of combat has not ...

    Yes it does. Do not argue without understanding the basics.

    a)Again read the basic too ...
    Swiftness doesn't put near the 400 cap
    Dont try to say something that you don't really understand

    You really are making me repeat myself? Ugh. So, lets do the math. Swiftness is 33% speedboost. You start with 294 base movement speed out of combat. 294*1.33= 391. The cap is 400. So you are literally just 9 units below cap. Thats 9 units per second. Got it now?

    b) its free 2x dodges
    Its free 900 yards
    Dodge >Arrow > 2x FREE DODGES > arrow > dodges

    No its not? You dont get anything. You just start regenerating endurance 1 second faster. Like, what if I instead use arrow, then dodge thrice, then arrow again? I gain distance. Simple, isnt it?

    With you method , you will run out resources faster...

    ... no? You start regenerating resources faster with my method.

    a) Again why do you make me repeat myself...
    In the PvP area the movements speed is extremly Lowered by default .
    Its not near the 294 ...
    Its like in 194-205

    .... no? Its not? What the bloody hell are you talking about. Movement speed and its cap doesnt change other than in-combat vs out of combat. If it did ,the wiki would say it. Are you just a bad troll?

    b) You have 2x dodges that allows you to recuperate the Arrow and not run out of resources after 15 sec .
    Its called Resources management !

    No, its called "Not understanding how resources work". You regenerate the arrow as soon as you use it. By dashing first you lose 1 second of initiative regeneration and gain nothing. You lose distance traveled. Its wrong. Do you finally get it?

    a) PvE out of combat speed is different from the PvP ones .
    Just go in the PvE and and use any speed boost , you will know the difference ....

    NO IT IS NOT. If that were the case the wiki article would mention it. It doesnt. Because that isnt the case. And I did. What I found was "speed was the exact same". Youre really just that dense, arent you?

    b) With you method you will run out of resources in less than a min (3 Arrows-5 dodges)
    By my calculations you will waste 2xFREE DODGES , GAIN 900 YARD DISTANCE and then have your remaining 5x dodges + 3 arrows to manage as you wish

    Now youre just saying words without meaning. No, with my method I will not run out of resources any faster than with your method. I will however regain resources faster than with your method. I do not waste "anything". I gain 150 units distance compared to your method. Are you just a new player who doesnt know how GW2 works yet?

    I understand that you are new to the game . But ask me next time . I played from Beta till the release of HoT

    Yeah right. The guy who doesnt understand resources or even how movement speed works totally "played since the beta". Look either youre new, or youre a troll. Either way, youre wrong, I have shown youre wrong, and youre getting on my nerves. So accept that youre wrong, or just shut up.

    You simply lack some informations that it kinda ''stealthy'' .
    Its ok because you are kinda new .
    The Warclaw moves at 394 u/s in WvWvW (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mount/Mount_speed_research)
    And players with Swiftness + no other mobility skills get outpaced by Warclaws .

    Oh wow, you really just dont know anything. Here is the actual warclaws speed. Its not 394. Its 453. And thats without using the mobility skill. No duh players with swiftness get outpaced, Warclaw is a lot faster.

    204 u/s x33% swiftness = 271 u/s for a player in the PvP areas

    This is just numbers you pulled out of your kitten with no basis in anything.

    394-271 = 122 u/s (the mount gains 120 yards each second , outpacing the player )

    453 vs 394. Again, wrong, and completely pulled out of your kitten. The funny thing is, you literally had a piece of evidence in your hands where you could see that youre wrong. Remember this? Its the mount speed research tab you poorly linked. Lets look at this little line: "On foot: WvW; 100% Swiftness Speed: 392.". Now, PvE: "Land; 100% Swiftness Speed: 392". Whats this? Its literally the same? Who would ever have guessed.

    I am sorry , but you are wrong ...

    I am not, but you clearly are. And youre not sorry, youre a troll.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Warclaw
    Its movement speed in PvE is about 539 u/s
    Its base Movement Speed in WvW is about 453 u/s

    The warclaw is not a player. It doesnt have a movement speed cap in the first place. And its also got a different movement speed because the PvE version uses what used to be the warclaws movement speed in your own territory in WvW. That got removed, but PvE kept it.

    You see
    I got it right that PvP + PvE speed have different values :)

    No you are wrong. You said players have different values. I have shown that they do not. Warclaw has nothing to do with any of this. But its painfully clear now that youre just a bad troll.

  • Naqam a.6521Naqam a.6521 Member ✭✭
    edited September 13, 2020

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    @UNOwen.7132 lol you just say things that are wrong man.

    1. Rangers and Warriors do not outpace thief in a horizontal race. I don't understand how you can possibly argue with the breakdown that I presented.

    Because the breakdown you presented is incorrect, leaves out a lot of things.

    1. You said that: "Out of combat, 33% or 50% doesnt make a difference" which is silly because in pvp you're always in combat. Even if we were talking out of combat, the DP Daredevil is still clearly faster. As much can be viewed from the breakdown.

    We were talking about a horizontal race. That does not include in-combat. And if we talk out of combat, Ranger is clearly much faster, as you can see from the corrected breakdown. Oh and fun fact: If we were talking in-combat, warrior actually pulls ahead a lot, because they spend less time just running and more time in movement.

    1. Then you say: "Additionally in order to obtain anything close to permastealth, thief has to slow down a lot. Far more than they get from it. So, not a point." It's not about permastealth, it's about the small stealths like their heal skill, which is 24s CD traited for a 6s +50% movement, or Steal if it is traited to grant stealth with significantly large reduction in CD. Between just the heal and steal, not counting any other sources of stealth, a PD Core or DP dd is essentially getting 9s of +50% movement per 24s. That's something like 40% uptime of +50% movement my dude. So if they cycle the usage wisely, they use the porting during the 15s that the 50% movement is on CD, and run with the 50% movement for 9s while init is building back up. There is an extremely small margin of time where the thief has to WASD with only 33% Swift, very small margin of time. So yeah, that +50% movement from stealth is extremely significant in this breakdown, whether you look at from in combat or out.

    "that's 50% movement on a class that can perma stealth". Quite literally what you wrote. Dont complain that I point out something you say yourself. Its not significant at all, because out of combat 33% and 50% is nearly identical (its a difference of 10 movement speed or so), and in-combat its inferior to spending more time in movement skills (if you want, I can break down in-combat movement as well. Just as a spoiler: Warrior and Ranger are faster).

    1. Shadow Step is 40s when traited in Shadow Arts my dude.

    Ah, right, fair enough.

    1. You said: "Lets put it to 40 seconds, shall we? So, we get at most 1 shadowstep" No you get 2x. You use Shadow Step immediately at the start of the 60s timer, as well as 2x SB#5s. I already pointed this out in the breakdown. You do this early, first skills used, so that they come off CD faster during the 60s timer. My good bro, you get to use Shadow Step twice in the 60s race. And don't worry, I already calculated the rest of the breakdown for Range/War in the same way with their skill usage.

    And even with that, Ranger is ahead. Without even using sword. And no, you didnt. You forgot a lot of things, as I pointed out, and made a lot of wrong assumptions.

    1. Then you go on to say: "Infiltrators arrow is not instant either. Theyre both about a second, but swoop carries you a tiny bit further." again, you're not noticing something important for this comparison. The SB#5 does have an animation time but it DOES NOT stop your WASD movement walking speed while casting it. So the Thief is still moving with WASD while the animation begins, an when it ends it instantly moves him with no interruption to the WASD movement. Swoop and Gazelle F2 or Bull's Charge or Rush, REPLACE all WASD movement and actually cause small pauses to it before and after the animations. A Swoop may be 1000 range but it is on a 10s CD that is effectively an 11s CD because the recharge doesn't begin until the 1s animation ends. The Sb#5 on the other hand, does not interrupt the initiative regen whatsoever and maintains a sound 2x 900 range uses per 12s = 1800 range per 12s, all the while not interrupting the WASD movement of the Thief at all, nor does Shadow Step or Steal.

    Why does it stopping WASD movement matter, exactly? After you use Shortbow 5, no matter how or where you move, your location is locked in. You will always travel 900 units from your original point. Thats 900 units per second. Meanwhile Rush and swoop and whatever all finish their full animation also in a second, and you can move freely instantly. Thats 1200 units per second. Thats more distance covered in the same time. That is all that matters. I get what youre trying to do, muddle the waters to hide important aspects that dismantle your argument, but it doesnt work.

    1. And then this here is just entirely and completely incorrect in every possible way. You said that: "You get both Bird Swoop and Gazelle Charge, actually. You cant swap pets in-combat, but were not looking at in-combat. So thats 1200 on 12 seconds and Swoops 1200 on 18 seconds. Theyre also both about a second." OK so first, we are looking at in-combat because that's what happens in a pvp setting. When you're talking about things chasing each other and running from each other, that's what's happening, people in combat. When a Soulbeast is in combat it can't swap pets. Even if we were talking about out of combat, you are seriously not understanding some things about Ranger here. Again, Soulbeast does not use Swiftness skills. It relies on Beastmastery trait merge for a flat 30% movement speed WHILE MERGED. When you try to swap pets, they go on a 9s CD and during that 9s you do not benefit the 30% movement. Even if you were using Swiftness from the bird when it was unmerged, it only lasts 10s and it takes time to cast. Then when you swap to the Gazelle the pet swap goes on 9s CD and merge will be on a 10s CD after you left bird. So now you swap to Gazelle and you have to stand there and wait for the merge CD to come off timer before you can even get into the Gazelle to use the F2. So theoretically I see what you're trying to argue but it doesn't pan out in the way that you were thinking because of merge timer. In other words, without writing a thesis on this one aspect, you'll make better distance by camping beast mode in Gazelle for the 30% movement baseline and F2 Charge on a 13s cycle. Trying to swap pets and adding in that 9 to 10s buffer to wait to remerge will kill your skill usage cycling & distance.

    Lots to unpack here. Let me just copy the important parts and address them one by one.

    OK so first, we are looking at in-combat because that's what happens in a pvp setting

    No we arent. Were talking about a horizontal race. You dont have a race in-combat. And the original context was about cross-map movement. You know, going to decap and +1? You also do that out of combat. So already youre very wrong.

    Again, Soulbeast does not use Swiftness skills

    Oh, do they now?. Yeah thats a load of kitten. And you use it while merged. And then there are stances or warhorn or whatever.

    1. Then you say: "You get swiftness from owl + your choice between stances, warhorn, or whatever. You hit the max cap all the same." OK first of all, whatever you're referencing is not going to be any faster than any other Soulbeast build aside from some +3% gain in movement from having Swiftness over merge trait. Upon that, using warhorn and stances and owl on a Soulbeast is not a practical build to be using in pvp. You need to be using Longbow and Greatsword, and Smokescale, because when you merge and go into combat you cannot swap pets and you need the Smokescale the most for obvious reasons. So whatever you're referencing here is about as far away as it could get from a realistic build comparison.

    Its not much of a boost, but its a boost. And again, talking out of combat, so you hit the movement speed cap. And sure its not a practical build because you dont care for map movement since you need vertical movement. But in WvW, its actually a build. A version of boonbeast specifically.

    1. Then you start talking about 1hand Sword on a Ranger. Just no. You suggest the idea that someone is going to run Greatsword for Swoop with a 1hand Sword with a Warhorn apparnetly for competitive purposes? Even if they did and even if they were out of combat, that 1hand Sword jump has this weird hampering effect with its animation that hinders the Ranger just enough to where it barely gains any distance at all compared to what the tooltip says. If you're talking a foot race like this, the 600 range on Sword#2 is more like 300 range in terms of distance gained because of the weird animation at the beginning and the pause at the end before the Ranger is allowed to move with WASD afterwards. And upon that man, that build would be terrible in combat regardless of if it was DPS or Bunker, doesn't matter. Those weapon sets would be hot garbage together. The days of old Boonbeast setups have been looooooong gone for awhile now man. Sword/Warhorn/Greatsword would get you jacked up in a hurry if you tried to run it in pvp or wvw.

    That "weird animation" is called a cast time. Its still faster. And sure, as I said, its redundant anyway. Youre ahead. And sure it wouldnt be good for 1v1s or teamfights. But neither is thief, is it? The point is to have a hypothetical thief analogue that can move across the map if they were horizontal.

    1. And then War I'm not going to discuss because it's slower than Ranger and Ranger is slower than Thief, and the same mistakes were made while viewing the breakdown, concerning not taking into account the hampering of movement from animations. A good example on War is GS#3 Whirlwind. That skill has some serious animation hampering. It doesn't boost you ahead nearly as much as the tooltip would make you think. Using a WW alongside of a guy who was just running with Swiftness 33%, would only put you ahead maybe 60-80 range from him, due to how the animation actually works.

    Its slower than ranger, yes. Its faster than thief. I did not make any mistakes. I counted the animation and stated it. It boosts you by exactly as much as I have said.

    At any rate man, the purpose of my comparisons were to use realistic build structures for pvp while being in combat. The purpose was not to point out theoretical weird run builds designed for GW1 Droknar's Forge run. I could do the same thing for Thief, point out of a bunch theoretical options that could improve its movement speed and init gain, ect ect, but that's unrealistic.

    You couldnt. Youre pretty much hitting the cap. Roll for initiative, perhaps, but that barely boosts you, and then youre tapped out. The purpose was to show that in horizontal movement thief is faster than ranger and warrior, and you failed to show that at all, because its not true.

    But just to humour you, what if it was in-combat? Well lets start with warrior. Its easier. 12600 over 16.45 remains the same, its not affected by in combat vs out of combat. So, 23.5 seconds of swiftness movement. Thats 280 units per second. So 23.5*280= 6580. For a total of 19180 units in 40 seconds. To compare, thief has the 7200 over 8. So, 32 seconds of movement. Lets be very generous and assume thief has 50% extra movement speed during the entire 32 seconds (needless to say, he wont). Thats 32*315= 10080. For a total of 17280. Thats almost 2k less. And that was with me being very generous. If we instead assume realistically the thief only has, lets say, 12 seconds of 50% movement, then its only 16580. Almost 3k less. Yeah, pretty rough for the thief, innit?

    You maths are kinda off by a bit
    a) For example you didn't calculate that Thief can use Dash (450 yards yard range) x6times in those 40 sec
    (2 in start + once every 10 sec) .

    So I didnt. Although its 5 times, not 6. 3 at the start, then one every 10 seconds, but you dont start with dash. Thats 750 units. Less far behind, but still behind.

    b) The 50% speed bonus on stealth is translated into 36-37% movement speed in combat

    Well, I did say "its about 10 units or so". 9 to be precise. You throw in about, idk, 110 units. Its still behind.

    c) Combining those 2 , you will get out of combat faster without being him and your 50% out of combat speed in stealth will be fully enabled

    Nah, if you combine those 2 thief still falls behind by a lot.

    and d) if you stealth , he cannot outrun you , because he cannot find you :)

    Thats not how outrunning is defined.

    Yeah it seems both of us haven't played much GW2 :)
    Daredevil has 3 dodges from the start + once per 10 sec . So in total is 7 in 40 sec

    Wait did I mess up my math? Oh its 6. Not 7. You dont start with dash. You start with shortbow 5, since initiative is more important to recharge.

    In an combat race , you start with the more easy available spell , in our case is Dash . Otherwise the delay from switching weapon + use the Arrow can be fatal . You can equip it while on the Dash animation

    Nope, see above.

    The 50% speed bonus on stealth is translated into 36-37% movement speed in combat
    Druids and Warriors with swiftness its 33%

    Percentage is meaningless, you want the real unit. That is a difference of 9 units per second. So after 40 seconds of running, youd barely be at 360. Its not much.

    I pretty sure the Thiefs will get out of combat faster and his 50% speed will be enabled :)

    He wont actually. And this is not what the race is about. And the 50% speed is meaningless, as seen above.

    a) Nope see above , you start with the Dash , you will waste 0,5 sec by equipping the shortbow and till the arrow its traveled .
    Its more scientific acceptable to do that while you are on the Dash animation
    edit: With my method (7 dashes) , i can use 2 Dash to give my resources time to recuperate + travel 900 more yards

    You dont. You dont equip shortbow, and you start with shortbow because initiative is more important of a resource than endurance. Its 1.5 units per second when youre regening endurance, vs 150 per second with shortbow 5. PRetty big.

    b)Its not 9 units .
    Its 3% difference movement increased x 40 sec = the number will be inflating even after that = they will never catch you

    Its literally 9 units per second. Its 391 units per second vs 400 units per second. Its so little its irrelevant.

    c) I pretty sure the Thiefs will get out of combat faster and his 50% speed will be enabled will travel even more distance

    Again, we start out of combat. And again, the speed makes close to no difference.

    a)No sorry , but with your method you will be off by 900 yards less from your goal .
    Try to imagine the first dodge , as a free 450 yard Leap > arrow > dodge .
    With your method and 5 dodges , you will be 900 yard less and your resources will not have time to be restored

    I hate having to repeat myself. The first dodge gives you about 150 units compared to just walking. The first infiltrators arrow gives you 500 units compared to just walking. And initiative is worth more than endurance. So is it now clear why you do not start with a dash? Good.

    b) If we start out of combat , then the Warrior + Druid will be running by 33% vs 50% of you .
    It will be 17% difference in speed/distance x40 sec = 2040 yards and will be increasing by the second

    Out of combat movement speed has a cap. At 400. With swiftness you reach 391 movement speed. So 50% only gains 9 units per seconds. So no, at most its 360 units if you ran 40 seconds with 50% vs someone with 33%. Not 2040 or anywhere close to it.

    Try to think it more rational , you will outrun them both:)
    Or try to stealth and hide them :)

    The one who needs to "think more rational" is the one who doesnt understand basic concepts. Do not make me repeat myself again.

    a)Again you don't really understand .
    Dodge >Arrow > 2x FREE DODGES > arrow > dodges
    With your calculation you will not gain 900 yard extra speed ...

    No I do understand. I understand you do not understand how this works. Let me explain. If you do the order "dodge > Arrow" you lose a total of 350 units at the start, and then another 150 for the second you wasted. On the other hand, if you do "Arrow > dodge", you gain 350 units and gain another 150 by not wasting a second. The latter moves you more.

    b) In combat has a cap ...
    Out of combat has not ...

    Yes it does. Do not argue without understanding the basics.

    a)Again read the basic too ...
    Swiftness doesn't put near the 400 cap
    Dont try to say something that you don't really understand

    You really are making me repeat myself? Ugh. So, lets do the math. Swiftness is 33% speedboost. You start with 294 base movement speed out of combat. 294*1.33= 391. The cap is 400. So you are literally just 9 units below cap. Thats 9 units per second. Got it now?

    b) its free 2x dodges
    Its free 900 yards
    Dodge >Arrow > 2x FREE DODGES > arrow > dodges

    No its not? You dont get anything. You just start regenerating endurance 1 second faster. Like, what if I instead use arrow, then dodge thrice, then arrow again? I gain distance. Simple, isnt it?

    With you method , you will run out resources faster...

    ... no? You start regenerating resources faster with my method.

    a) Again why do you make me repeat myself...
    In the PvP area the movements speed is extremly Lowered by default .
    Its not near the 294 ...
    Its like in 194-205

    .... no? Its not? What the bloody hell are you talking about. Movement speed and its cap doesnt change other than in-combat vs out of combat. If it did ,the wiki would say it. Are you just a bad troll?

    b) You have 2x dodges that allows you to recuperate the Arrow and not run out of resources after 15 sec .
    Its called Resources management !

    No, its called "Not understanding how resources work". You regenerate the arrow as soon as you use it. By dashing first you lose 1 second of initiative regeneration and gain nothing. You lose distance traveled. Its wrong. Do you finally get it?

    a) PvE out of combat speed is different from the PvP ones .
    Just go in the PvE and and use any speed boost , you will know the difference ....

    NO IT IS NOT. If that were the case the wiki article would mention it. It doesnt. Because that isnt the case. And I did. What I found was "speed was the exact same". Youre really just that dense, arent you?

    b) With you method you will run out of resources in less than a min (3 Arrows-5 dodges)
    By my calculations you will waste 2xFREE DODGES , GAIN 900 YARD DISTANCE and then have your remaining 5x dodges + 3 arrows to manage as you wish

    Now youre just saying words without meaning. No, with my method I will not run out of resources any faster than with your method. I will however regain resources faster than with your method. I do not waste "anything". I gain 150 units distance compared to your method. Are you just a new player who doesnt know how GW2 works yet?

    I understand that you are new to the game . But ask me next time . I played from Beta till the release of HoT

    Yeah right. The guy who doesnt understand resources or even how movement speed works totally "played since the beta". Look either youre new, or youre a troll. Either way, youre wrong, I have shown youre wrong, and youre getting on my nerves. So accept that youre wrong, or just shut up.

    You simply lack some informations that it kinda ''stealthy'' .
    Its ok because you are kinda new .
    The Warclaw moves at 394 u/s in WvWvW (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mount/Mount_speed_research)
    And players with Swiftness + no other mobility skills get outpaced by Warclaws .

    Oh wow, you really just dont know anything. Here is the actual warclaws speed. Its not 394. Its 453. And thats without using the mobility skill. No duh players with swiftness get outpaced, Warclaw is a lot faster.

    204 u/s x33% swiftness = 271 u/s for a player in the PvP areas

    This is just numbers you pulled out of your kitten with no basis in anything.

    394-271 = 122 u/s (the mount gains 120 yards each second , outpacing the player )

    453 vs 394. Again, wrong, and completely pulled out of your kitten. The funny thing is, you literally had a piece of evidence in your hands where you could see that youre wrong. Remember this? Its the mount speed research tab you poorly linked. Lets look at this little line: "On foot: WvW; 100% Swiftness Speed: 392.". Now, PvE: "Land; 100% Swiftness Speed: 392". Whats this? Its literally the same? Who would ever have guessed.

    I am sorry , but you are wrong ...

    I am not, but you clearly are. And youre not sorry, youre a troll.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Warclaw
    Its movement speed in PvE is about 539 u/s
    Its base Movement Speed in WvW is about 453 u/s

    The warclaw is not a player. It doesnt have a movement speed cap in the first place. And its also got a different movement speed because the PvE version uses what used to be the warclaws movement speed in your own territory in WvW. That got removed, but PvE kept it.

    You see
    I got it right that PvP + PvE speed have different values :)

    No you are wrong. You said players have different values. I have shown that they do not. Warclaw has nothing to do with any of this. But its painfully clear now that youre just a bad troll.

    You youngster , dont you find it strange that :
    if Warclaw has 453 u/s and the player 394 u/s , that means that after 4 secthe Warclaw will be 360 yards ahead of the player ?
    Less that a Captured point from PvP (480) ?

    In reality , the player doesn't move at 394 , but less .
    That why after 4 sec , the munt is wayyyyyy ahead of you without dodging

    The warclaw like player , behave differently in PvE
    I am sorry for you , for not knowing that :)
    It's ok to be wrong :)

    1 month

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    @UNOwen.7132 lol you just say things that are wrong man.

    1. Rangers and Warriors do not outpace thief in a horizontal race. I don't understand how you can possibly argue with the breakdown that I presented.

    Because the breakdown you presented is incorrect, leaves out a lot of things.

    1. You said that: "Out of combat, 33% or 50% doesnt make a difference" which is silly because in pvp you're always in combat. Even if we were talking out of combat, the DP Daredevil is still clearly faster. As much can be viewed from the breakdown.

    We were talking about a horizontal race. That does not include in-combat. And if we talk out of combat, Ranger is clearly much faster, as you can see from the corrected breakdown. Oh and fun fact: If we were talking in-combat, warrior actually pulls ahead a lot, because they spend less time just running and more time in movement.

    1. Then you say: "Additionally in order to obtain anything close to permastealth, thief has to slow down a lot. Far more than they get from it. So, not a point." It's not about permastealth, it's about the small stealths like their heal skill, which is 24s CD traited for a 6s +50% movement, or Steal if it is traited to grant stealth with significantly large reduction in CD. Between just the heal and steal, not counting any other sources of stealth, a PD Core or DP dd is essentially getting 9s of +50% movement per 24s. That's something like 40% uptime of +50% movement my dude. So if they cycle the usage wisely, they use the porting during the 15s that the 50% movement is on CD, and run with the 50% movement for 9s while init is building back up. There is an extremely small margin of time where the thief has to WASD with only 33% Swift, very small margin of time. So yeah, that +50% movement from stealth is extremely significant in this breakdown, whether you look at from in combat or out.

    "that's 50% movement on a class that can perma stealth". Quite literally what you wrote. Dont complain that I point out something you say yourself. Its not significant at all, because out of combat 33% and 50% is nearly identical (its a difference of 10 movement speed or so), and in-combat its inferior to spending more time in movement skills (if you want, I can break down in-combat movement as well. Just as a spoiler: Warrior and Ranger are faster).

    1. Shadow Step is 40s when traited in Shadow Arts my dude.

    Ah, right, fair enough.

    1. You said: "Lets put it to 40 seconds, shall we? So, we get at most 1 shadowstep" No you get 2x. You use Shadow Step immediately at the start of the 60s timer, as well as 2x SB#5s. I already pointed this out in the breakdown. You do this early, first skills used, so that they come off CD faster during the 60s timer. My good bro, you get to use Shadow Step twice in the 60s race. And don't worry, I already calculated the rest of the breakdown for Range/War in the same way with their skill usage.

    And even with that, Ranger is ahead. Without even using sword. And no, you didnt. You forgot a lot of things, as I pointed out, and made a lot of wrong assumptions.

    1. Then you go on to say: "Infiltrators arrow is not instant either. Theyre both about a second, but swoop carries you a tiny bit further." again, you're not noticing something important for this comparison. The SB#5 does have an animation time but it DOES NOT stop your WASD movement walking speed while casting it. So the Thief is still moving with WASD while the animation begins, an when it ends it instantly moves him with no interruption to the WASD movement. Swoop and Gazelle F2 or Bull's Charge or Rush, REPLACE all WASD movement and actually cause small pauses to it before and after the animations. A Swoop may be 1000 range but it is on a 10s CD that is effectively an 11s CD because the recharge doesn't begin until the 1s animation ends. The Sb#5 on the other hand, does not interrupt the initiative regen whatsoever and maintains a sound 2x 900 range uses per 12s = 1800 range per 12s, all the while not interrupting the WASD movement of the Thief at all, nor does Shadow Step or Steal.

    Why does it stopping WASD movement matter, exactly? After you use Shortbow 5, no matter how or where you move, your location is locked in. You will always travel 900 units from your original point. Thats 900 units per second. Meanwhile Rush and swoop and whatever all finish their full animation also in a second, and you can move freely instantly. Thats 1200 units per second. Thats more distance covered in the same time. That is all that matters. I get what youre trying to do, muddle the waters to hide important aspects that dismantle your argument, but it doesnt work.

    1. And then this here is just entirely and completely incorrect in every possible way. You said that: "You get both Bird Swoop and Gazelle Charge, actually. You cant swap pets in-combat, but were not looking at in-combat. So thats 1200 on 12 seconds and Swoops 1200 on 18 seconds. Theyre also both about a second." OK so first, we are looking at in-combat because that's what happens in a pvp setting. When you're talking about things chasing each other and running from each other, that's what's happening, people in combat. When a Soulbeast is in combat it can't swap pets. Even if we were talking about out of combat, you are seriously not understanding some things about Ranger here. Again, Soulbeast does not use Swiftness skills. It relies on Beastmastery trait merge for a flat 30% movement speed WHILE MERGED. When you try to swap pets, they go on a 9s CD and during that 9s you do not benefit the 30% movement. Even if you were using Swiftness from the bird when it was unmerged, it only lasts 10s and it takes time to cast. Then when you swap to the Gazelle the pet swap goes on 9s CD and merge will be on a 10s CD after you left bird. So now you swap to Gazelle and you have to stand there and wait for the merge CD to come off timer before you can even get into the Gazelle to use the F2. So theoretically I see what you're trying to argue but it doesn't pan out in the way that you were thinking because of merge timer. In other words, without writing a thesis on this one aspect, you'll make better distance by camping beast mode in Gazelle for the 30% movement baseline and F2 Charge on a 13s cycle. Trying to swap pets and adding in that 9 to 10s buffer to wait to remerge will kill your skill usage cycling & distance.

    Lots to unpack here. Let me just copy the important parts and address them one by one.

    OK so first, we are looking at in-combat because that's what happens in a pvp setting

    No we arent. Were talking about a horizontal race. You dont have a race in-combat. And the original context was about cross-map movement. You know, going to decap and +1? You also do that out of combat. So already youre very wrong.

    Again, Soulbeast does not use Swiftness skills

    Oh, do they now?. Yeah thats a load of kitten. And you use it while merged. And then there are stances or warhorn or whatever.

    1. Then you say: "You get swiftness from owl + your choice between stances, warhorn, or whatever. You hit the max cap all the same." OK first of all, whatever you're referencing is not going to be any faster than any other Soulbeast build aside from some +3% gain in movement from having Swiftness over merge trait. Upon that, using warhorn and stances and owl on a Soulbeast is not a practical build to be using in pvp. You need to be using Longbow and Greatsword, and Smokescale, because when you merge and go into combat you cannot swap pets and you need the Smokescale the most for obvious reasons. So whatever you're referencing here is about as far away as it could get from a realistic build comparison.

    Its not much of a boost, but its a boost. And again, talking out of combat, so you hit the movement speed cap. And sure its not a practical build because you dont care for map movement since you need vertical movement. But in WvW, its actually a build. A version of boonbeast specifically.

    1. Then you start talking about 1hand Sword on a Ranger. Just no. You suggest the idea that someone is going to run Greatsword for Swoop with a 1hand Sword with a Warhorn apparnetly for competitive purposes? Even if they did and even if they were out of combat, that 1hand Sword jump has this weird hampering effect with its animation that hinders the Ranger just enough to where it barely gains any distance at all compared to what the tooltip says. If you're talking a foot race like this, the 600 range on Sword#2 is more like 300 range in terms of distance gained because of the weird animation at the beginning and the pause at the end before the Ranger is allowed to move with WASD afterwards. And upon that man, that build would be terrible in combat regardless of if it was DPS or Bunker, doesn't matter. Those weapon sets would be hot garbage together. The days of old Boonbeast setups have been looooooong gone for awhile now man. Sword/Warhorn/Greatsword would get you jacked up in a hurry if you tried to run it in pvp or wvw.

    That "weird animation" is called a cast time. Its still faster. And sure, as I said, its redundant anyway. Youre ahead. And sure it wouldnt be good for 1v1s or teamfights. But neither is thief, is it? The point is to have a hypothetical thief analogue that can move across the map if they were horizontal.

    1. And then War I'm not going to discuss because it's slower than Ranger and Ranger is slower than Thief, and the same mistakes were made while viewing the breakdown, concerning not taking into account the hampering of movement from animations. A good example on War is GS#3 Whirlwind. That skill has some serious animation hampering. It doesn't boost you ahead nearly as much as the tooltip would make you think. Using a WW alongside of a guy who was just running with Swiftness 33%, would only put you ahead maybe 60-80 range from him, due to how the animation actually works.

    Its slower than ranger, yes. Its faster than thief. I did not make any mistakes. I counted the animation and stated it. It boosts you by exactly as much as I have said.

    At any rate man, the purpose of my comparisons were to use realistic build structures for pvp while being in combat. The purpose was not to point out theoretical weird run builds designed for GW1 Droknar's Forge run. I could do the same thing for Thief, point out of a bunch theoretical options that could improve its movement speed and init gain, ect ect, but that's unrealistic.

    You couldnt. Youre pretty much hitting the cap. Roll for initiative, perhaps, but that barely boosts you, and then youre tapped out. The purpose was to show that in horizontal movement thief is faster than ranger and warrior, and you failed to show that at all, because its not true.

    But just to humour you, what if it was in-combat? Well lets start with warrior. Its easier. 12600 over 16.45 remains the same, its not affected by in combat vs out of combat. So, 23.5 seconds of swiftness movement. Thats 280 units per second. So 23.5*280= 6580. For a total of 19180 units in 40 seconds. To compare, thief has the 7200 over 8. So, 32 seconds of movement. Lets be very generous and assume thief has 50% extra movement speed during the entire 32 seconds (needless to say, he wont). Thats 32*315= 10080. For a total of 17280. Thats almost 2k less. And that was with me being very generous. If we instead assume realistically the thief only has, lets say, 12 seconds of 50% movement, then its only 16580. Almost 3k less. Yeah, pretty rough for the thief, innit?

    You maths are kinda off by a bit
    a) For example you didn't calculate that Thief can use Dash (450 yards yard range) x6times in those 40 sec
    (2 in start + once every 10 sec) .

    So I didnt. Although its 5 times, not 6. 3 at the start, then one every 10 seconds, but you dont start with dash. Thats 750 units. Less far behind, but still behind.

    b) The 50% speed bonus on stealth is translated into 36-37% movement speed in combat

    Well, I did say "its about 10 units or so". 9 to be precise. You throw in about, idk, 110 units. Its still behind.

    c) Combining those 2 , you will get out of combat faster without being him and your 50% out of combat speed in stealth will be fully enabled

    Nah, if you combine those 2 thief still falls behind by a lot.

    and d) if you stealth , he cannot outrun you , because he cannot find you :)

    Thats not how outrunning is defined.

    Yeah it seems both of us haven't played much GW2 :)
    Daredevil has 3 dodges from the start + once per 10 sec . So in total is 7 in 40 sec

    Wait did I mess up my math? Oh its 6. Not 7. You dont start with dash. You start with shortbow 5, since initiative is more important to recharge.

    In an combat race , you start with the more easy available spell , in our case is Dash . Otherwise the delay from switching weapon + use the Arrow can be fatal . You can equip it while on the Dash animation

    Nope, see above.

    The 50% speed bonus on stealth is translated into 36-37% movement speed in combat
    Druids and Warriors with swiftness its 33%

    Percentage is meaningless, you want the real unit. That is a difference of 9 units per second. So after 40 seconds of running, youd barely be at 360. Its not much.

    I pretty sure the Thiefs will get out of combat faster and his 50% speed will be enabled :)

    He wont actually. And this is not what the race is about. And the 50% speed is meaningless, as seen above.

    a) Nope see above , you start with the Dash , you will waste 0,5 sec by equipping the shortbow and till the arrow its traveled .
    Its more scientific acceptable to do that while you are on the Dash animation
    edit: With my method (7 dashes) , i can use 2 Dash to give my resources time to recuperate + travel 900 more yards

    You dont. You dont equip shortbow, and you start with shortbow because initiative is more important of a resource than endurance. Its 1.5 units per second when youre regening endurance, vs 150 per second with shortbow 5. PRetty big.

    b)Its not 9 units .
    Its 3% difference movement increased x 40 sec = the number will be inflating even after that = they will never catch you

    Its literally 9 units per second. Its 391 units per second vs 400 units per second. Its so little its irrelevant.

    c) I pretty sure the Thiefs will get out of combat faster and his 50% speed will be enabled will travel even more distance

    Again, we start out of combat. And again, the speed makes close to no difference.

    a)No sorry , but with your method you will be off by 900 yards less from your goal .
    Try to imagine the first dodge , as a free 450 yard Leap > arrow > dodge .
    With your method and 5 dodges , you will be 900 yard less and your resources will not have time to be restored

    I hate having to repeat myself. The first dodge gives you about 150 units compared to just walking. The first infiltrators arrow gives you 500 units compared to just walking. And initiative is worth more than endurance. So is it now clear why you do not start with a dash? Good.

    b) If we start out of combat , then the Warrior + Druid will be running by 33% vs 50% of you .
    It will be 17% difference in speed/distance x40 sec = 2040 yards and will be increasing by the second

    Out of combat movement speed has a cap. At 400. With swiftness you reach 391 movement speed. So 50% only gains 9 units per seconds. So no, at most its 360 units if you ran 40 seconds with 50% vs someone with 33%. Not 2040 or anywhere close to it.

    Try to think it more rational , you will outrun them both:)
    Or try to stealth and hide them :)

    The one who needs to "think more rational" is the one who doesnt understand basic concepts. Do not make me repeat myself again.

    a)Again you don't really understand .
    Dodge >Arrow > 2x FREE DODGES > arrow > dodges
    With your calculation you will not gain 900 yard extra speed ...

    No I do understand. I understand you do not understand how this works. Let me explain. If you do the order "dodge > Arrow" you lose a total of 350 units at the start, and then another 150 for the second you wasted. On the other hand, if you do "Arrow > dodge", you gain 350 units and gain another 150 by not wasting a second. The latter moves you more.

    b) In combat has a cap ...
    Out of combat has not ...

    Yes it does. Do not argue without understanding the basics.

    a)Again read the basic too ...
    Swiftness doesn't put near the 400 cap
    Dont try to say something that you don't really understand

    You really are making me repeat myself? Ugh. So, lets do the math. Swiftness is 33% speedboost. You start with 294 base movement speed out of combat. 294*1.33= 391. The cap is 400. So you are literally just 9 units below cap. Thats 9 units per second. Got it now?

    b) its free 2x dodges
    Its free 900 yards
    Dodge >Arrow > 2x FREE DODGES > arrow > dodges

    No its not? You dont get anything. You just start regenerating endurance 1 second faster. Like, what if I instead use arrow, then dodge thrice, then arrow again? I gain distance. Simple, isnt it?

    With you method , you will run out resources faster...

    ... no? You start regenerating resources faster with my method.

    a) Again why do you make me repeat myself...
    In the PvP area the movements speed is extremly Lowered by default .
    Its not near the 294 ...
    Its like in 194-205

    .... no? Its not? What the bloody hell are you talking about. Movement speed and its cap doesnt change other than in-combat vs out of combat. If it did ,the wiki would say it. Are you just a bad troll?

    b) You have 2x dodges that allows you to recuperate the Arrow and not run out of resources after 15 sec .
    Its called Resources management !

    No, its called "Not understanding how resources work". You regenerate the arrow as soon as you use it. By dashing first you lose 1 second of initiative regeneration and gain nothing. You lose distance traveled. Its wrong. Do you finally get it?

    a) PvE out of combat speed is different from the PvP ones .
    Just go in the PvE and and use any speed boost , you will know the difference ....

    NO IT IS NOT. If that were the case the wiki article would mention it. It doesnt. Because that isnt the case. And I did. What I found was "speed was the exact same". Youre really just that dense, arent you?

    b) With you method you will run out of resources in less than a min (3 Arrows-5 dodges)
    By my calculations you will waste 2xFREE DODGES , GAIN 900 YARD DISTANCE and then have your remaining 5x dodges + 3 arrows to manage as you wish

    Now youre just saying words without meaning. No, with my method I will not run out of resources any faster than with your method. I will however regain resources faster than with your method. I do not waste "anything". I gain 150 units distance compared to your method. Are you just a new player who doesnt know how GW2 works yet?

    I understand that you are new to the game . But ask me next time . I played from Beta till the release of HoT

    Yeah right. The guy who doesnt understand resources or even how movement speed works totally "played since the beta". Look either youre new, or youre a troll. Either way, youre wrong, I have shown youre wrong, and youre getting on my nerves. So accept that youre wrong, or just shut up.

    You simply lack some informations that it kinda ''stealthy'' .
    Its ok because you are kinda new .
    The Warclaw moves at 394 u/s in WvWvW (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mount/Mount_speed_research)
    And players with Swiftness + no other mobility skills get outpaced by Warclaws .

    Oh wow, you really just dont know anything. Here is the actual warclaws speed. Its not 394. Its 453. And thats without using the mobility skill. No duh players with swiftness get outpaced, Warclaw is a lot faster.

    204 u/s x33% swiftness = 271 u/s for a player in the PvP areas

    This is just numbers you pulled out of your kitten with no basis in anything.

    394-271 = 122 u/s (the mount gains 120 yards each second , outpacing the player )

    453 vs 394. Again, wrong, and completely pulled out of your kitten. The funny thing is, you literally had a piece of evidence in your hands where you could see that youre wrong. Remember this? Its the mount speed research tab you poorly linked. Lets look at this little line: "On foot: WvW; 100% Swiftness Speed: 392.". Now, PvE: "Land; 100% Swiftness Speed: 392". Whats this? Its literally the same? Who would ever have guessed.

    I am sorry , but you are wrong ...

    I am not, but you clearly are. And youre not sorry, youre a troll.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Warclaw
    Its movement speed in PvE is about 539 u/s
    Its base Movement Speed in WvW is about 453 u/s

    The warclaw is not a player. It doesnt have a movement speed cap in the first place. And its also got a different movement speed because the PvE version uses what used to be the warclaws movement speed in your own territory in WvW. That got removed, but PvE kept it.

    You see
    I got it right that PvP + PvE speed have different values :)

    No you are wrong. You said players have different values. I have shown that they do not. Warclaw has nothing to do with any of this. But its painfully clear now that youre just a bad troll.

    You youngster , dont you find it strange that :
    if Warclaw has 453 u/s and the player 394 u/s , that means that after 4 secthe Warclaw will be 360 yards ahead of the player ?
    Less that a Captured point from PvP (480) ?

    No I dont it find strange. Because thats exactly the case? Of course, that assumes the warclaw isnt using its mobility button. And that the player has swiftness.

    In reality , the player doesn't move at 394 , but less .
    That why after 4 sec , the munt is wayyyyyy ahead of you without dodging

    No, in reality the player with swiftness moves at 394. The wiki even says as much. Stop trolling.

    The warclaw like player , behave differently in PvE
    I am sorry , for don't knowing that :)

    The player does not move any different across gamemodes, as the wiki explicitely says. Stop trolling.

  • Naqam a.6521Naqam a.6521 Member ✭✭
    edited September 13, 2020

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    @UNOwen.7132 lol you just say things that are wrong man.

    1. Rangers and Warriors do not outpace thief in a horizontal race. I don't understand how you can possibly argue with the breakdown that I presented.

    Because the breakdown you presented is incorrect, leaves out a lot of things.

    1. You said that: "Out of combat, 33% or 50% doesnt make a difference" which is silly because in pvp you're always in combat. Even if we were talking out of combat, the DP Daredevil is still clearly faster. As much can be viewed from the breakdown.

    We were talking about a horizontal race. That does not include in-combat. And if we talk out of combat, Ranger is clearly much faster, as you can see from the corrected breakdown. Oh and fun fact: If we were talking in-combat, warrior actually pulls ahead a lot, because they spend less time just running and more time in movement.

    1. Then you say: "Additionally in order to obtain anything close to permastealth, thief has to slow down a lot. Far more than they get from it. So, not a point." It's not about permastealth, it's about the small stealths like their heal skill, which is 24s CD traited for a 6s +50% movement, or Steal if it is traited to grant stealth with significantly large reduction in CD. Between just the heal and steal, not counting any other sources of stealth, a PD Core or DP dd is essentially getting 9s of +50% movement per 24s. That's something like 40% uptime of +50% movement my dude. So if they cycle the usage wisely, they use the porting during the 15s that the 50% movement is on CD, and run with the 50% movement for 9s while init is building back up. There is an extremely small margin of time where the thief has to WASD with only 33% Swift, very small margin of time. So yeah, that +50% movement from stealth is extremely significant in this breakdown, whether you look at from in combat or out.

    "that's 50% movement on a class that can perma stealth". Quite literally what you wrote. Dont complain that I point out something you say yourself. Its not significant at all, because out of combat 33% and 50% is nearly identical (its a difference of 10 movement speed or so), and in-combat its inferior to spending more time in movement skills (if you want, I can break down in-combat movement as well. Just as a spoiler: Warrior and Ranger are faster).

    1. Shadow Step is 40s when traited in Shadow Arts my dude.

    Ah, right, fair enough.

    1. You said: "Lets put it to 40 seconds, shall we? So, we get at most 1 shadowstep" No you get 2x. You use Shadow Step immediately at the start of the 60s timer, as well as 2x SB#5s. I already pointed this out in the breakdown. You do this early, first skills used, so that they come off CD faster during the 60s timer. My good bro, you get to use Shadow Step twice in the 60s race. And don't worry, I already calculated the rest of the breakdown for Range/War in the same way with their skill usage.

    And even with that, Ranger is ahead. Without even using sword. And no, you didnt. You forgot a lot of things, as I pointed out, and made a lot of wrong assumptions.

    1. Then you go on to say: "Infiltrators arrow is not instant either. Theyre both about a second, but swoop carries you a tiny bit further." again, you're not noticing something important for this comparison. The SB#5 does have an animation time but it DOES NOT stop your WASD movement walking speed while casting it. So the Thief is still moving with WASD while the animation begins, an when it ends it instantly moves him with no interruption to the WASD movement. Swoop and Gazelle F2 or Bull's Charge or Rush, REPLACE all WASD movement and actually cause small pauses to it before and after the animations. A Swoop may be 1000 range but it is on a 10s CD that is effectively an 11s CD because the recharge doesn't begin until the 1s animation ends. The Sb#5 on the other hand, does not interrupt the initiative regen whatsoever and maintains a sound 2x 900 range uses per 12s = 1800 range per 12s, all the while not interrupting the WASD movement of the Thief at all, nor does Shadow Step or Steal.

    Why does it stopping WASD movement matter, exactly? After you use Shortbow 5, no matter how or where you move, your location is locked in. You will always travel 900 units from your original point. Thats 900 units per second. Meanwhile Rush and swoop and whatever all finish their full animation also in a second, and you can move freely instantly. Thats 1200 units per second. Thats more distance covered in the same time. That is all that matters. I get what youre trying to do, muddle the waters to hide important aspects that dismantle your argument, but it doesnt work.

    1. And then this here is just entirely and completely incorrect in every possible way. You said that: "You get both Bird Swoop and Gazelle Charge, actually. You cant swap pets in-combat, but were not looking at in-combat. So thats 1200 on 12 seconds and Swoops 1200 on 18 seconds. Theyre also both about a second." OK so first, we are looking at in-combat because that's what happens in a pvp setting. When you're talking about things chasing each other and running from each other, that's what's happening, people in combat. When a Soulbeast is in combat it can't swap pets. Even if we were talking about out of combat, you are seriously not understanding some things about Ranger here. Again, Soulbeast does not use Swiftness skills. It relies on Beastmastery trait merge for a flat 30% movement speed WHILE MERGED. When you try to swap pets, they go on a 9s CD and during that 9s you do not benefit the 30% movement. Even if you were using Swiftness from the bird when it was unmerged, it only lasts 10s and it takes time to cast. Then when you swap to the Gazelle the pet swap goes on 9s CD and merge will be on a 10s CD after you left bird. So now you swap to Gazelle and you have to stand there and wait for the merge CD to come off timer before you can even get into the Gazelle to use the F2. So theoretically I see what you're trying to argue but it doesn't pan out in the way that you were thinking because of merge timer. In other words, without writing a thesis on this one aspect, you'll make better distance by camping beast mode in Gazelle for the 30% movement baseline and F2 Charge on a 13s cycle. Trying to swap pets and adding in that 9 to 10s buffer to wait to remerge will kill your skill usage cycling & distance.

    Lots to unpack here. Let me just copy the important parts and address them one by one.

    OK so first, we are looking at in-combat because that's what happens in a pvp setting

    No we arent. Were talking about a horizontal race. You dont have a race in-combat. And the original context was about cross-map movement. You know, going to decap and +1? You also do that out of combat. So already youre very wrong.

    Again, Soulbeast does not use Swiftness skills

    Oh, do they now?. Yeah thats a load of kitten. And you use it while merged. And then there are stances or warhorn or whatever.

    1. Then you say: "You get swiftness from owl + your choice between stances, warhorn, or whatever. You hit the max cap all the same." OK first of all, whatever you're referencing is not going to be any faster than any other Soulbeast build aside from some +3% gain in movement from having Swiftness over merge trait. Upon that, using warhorn and stances and owl on a Soulbeast is not a practical build to be using in pvp. You need to be using Longbow and Greatsword, and Smokescale, because when you merge and go into combat you cannot swap pets and you need the Smokescale the most for obvious reasons. So whatever you're referencing here is about as far away as it could get from a realistic build comparison.

    Its not much of a boost, but its a boost. And again, talking out of combat, so you hit the movement speed cap. And sure its not a practical build because you dont care for map movement since you need vertical movement. But in WvW, its actually a build. A version of boonbeast specifically.

    1. Then you start talking about 1hand Sword on a Ranger. Just no. You suggest the idea that someone is going to run Greatsword for Swoop with a 1hand Sword with a Warhorn apparnetly for competitive purposes? Even if they did and even if they were out of combat, that 1hand Sword jump has this weird hampering effect with its animation that hinders the Ranger just enough to where it barely gains any distance at all compared to what the tooltip says. If you're talking a foot race like this, the 600 range on Sword#2 is more like 300 range in terms of distance gained because of the weird animation at the beginning and the pause at the end before the Ranger is allowed to move with WASD afterwards. And upon that man, that build would be terrible in combat regardless of if it was DPS or Bunker, doesn't matter. Those weapon sets would be hot garbage together. The days of old Boonbeast setups have been looooooong gone for awhile now man. Sword/Warhorn/Greatsword would get you jacked up in a hurry if you tried to run it in pvp or wvw.

    That "weird animation" is called a cast time. Its still faster. And sure, as I said, its redundant anyway. Youre ahead. And sure it wouldnt be good for 1v1s or teamfights. But neither is thief, is it? The point is to have a hypothetical thief analogue that can move across the map if they were horizontal.

    1. And then War I'm not going to discuss because it's slower than Ranger and Ranger is slower than Thief, and the same mistakes were made while viewing the breakdown, concerning not taking into account the hampering of movement from animations. A good example on War is GS#3 Whirlwind. That skill has some serious animation hampering. It doesn't boost you ahead nearly as much as the tooltip would make you think. Using a WW alongside of a guy who was just running with Swiftness 33%, would only put you ahead maybe 60-80 range from him, due to how the animation actually works.

    Its slower than ranger, yes. Its faster than thief. I did not make any mistakes. I counted the animation and stated it. It boosts you by exactly as much as I have said.

    At any rate man, the purpose of my comparisons were to use realistic build structures for pvp while being in combat. The purpose was not to point out theoretical weird run builds designed for GW1 Droknar's Forge run. I could do the same thing for Thief, point out of a bunch theoretical options that could improve its movement speed and init gain, ect ect, but that's unrealistic.

    You couldnt. Youre pretty much hitting the cap. Roll for initiative, perhaps, but that barely boosts you, and then youre tapped out. The purpose was to show that in horizontal movement thief is faster than ranger and warrior, and you failed to show that at all, because its not true.

    But just to humour you, what if it was in-combat? Well lets start with warrior. Its easier. 12600 over 16.45 remains the same, its not affected by in combat vs out of combat. So, 23.5 seconds of swiftness movement. Thats 280 units per second. So 23.5*280= 6580. For a total of 19180 units in 40 seconds. To compare, thief has the 7200 over 8. So, 32 seconds of movement. Lets be very generous and assume thief has 50% extra movement speed during the entire 32 seconds (needless to say, he wont). Thats 32*315= 10080. For a total of 17280. Thats almost 2k less. And that was with me being very generous. If we instead assume realistically the thief only has, lets say, 12 seconds of 50% movement, then its only 16580. Almost 3k less. Yeah, pretty rough for the thief, innit?

    You maths are kinda off by a bit
    a) For example you didn't calculate that Thief can use Dash (450 yards yard range) x6times in those 40 sec
    (2 in start + once every 10 sec) .

    So I didnt. Although its 5 times, not 6. 3 at the start, then one every 10 seconds, but you dont start with dash. Thats 750 units. Less far behind, but still behind.

    b) The 50% speed bonus on stealth is translated into 36-37% movement speed in combat

    Well, I did say "its about 10 units or so". 9 to be precise. You throw in about, idk, 110 units. Its still behind.

    c) Combining those 2 , you will get out of combat faster without being him and your 50% out of combat speed in stealth will be fully enabled

    Nah, if you combine those 2 thief still falls behind by a lot.

    and d) if you stealth , he cannot outrun you , because he cannot find you :)

    Thats not how outrunning is defined.

    Yeah it seems both of us haven't played much GW2 :)
    Daredevil has 3 dodges from the start + once per 10 sec . So in total is 7 in 40 sec

    Wait did I mess up my math? Oh its 6. Not 7. You dont start with dash. You start with shortbow 5, since initiative is more important to recharge.

    In an combat race , you start with the more easy available spell , in our case is Dash . Otherwise the delay from switching weapon + use the Arrow can be fatal . You can equip it while on the Dash animation

    Nope, see above.

    The 50% speed bonus on stealth is translated into 36-37% movement speed in combat
    Druids and Warriors with swiftness its 33%

    Percentage is meaningless, you want the real unit. That is a difference of 9 units per second. So after 40 seconds of running, youd barely be at 360. Its not much.

    I pretty sure the Thiefs will get out of combat faster and his 50% speed will be enabled :)

    He wont actually. And this is not what the race is about. And the 50% speed is meaningless, as seen above.

    a) Nope see above , you start with the Dash , you will waste 0,5 sec by equipping the shortbow and till the arrow its traveled .
    Its more scientific acceptable to do that while you are on the Dash animation
    edit: With my method (7 dashes) , i can use 2 Dash to give my resources time to recuperate + travel 900 more yards

    You dont. You dont equip shortbow, and you start with shortbow because initiative is more important of a resource than endurance. Its 1.5 units per second when youre regening endurance, vs 150 per second with shortbow 5. PRetty big.

    b)Its not 9 units .
    Its 3% difference movement increased x 40 sec = the number will be inflating even after that = they will never catch you

    Its literally 9 units per second. Its 391 units per second vs 400 units per second. Its so little its irrelevant.

    c) I pretty sure the Thiefs will get out of combat faster and his 50% speed will be enabled will travel even more distance

    Again, we start out of combat. And again, the speed makes close to no difference.

    a)No sorry , but with your method you will be off by 900 yards less from your goal .
    Try to imagine the first dodge , as a free 450 yard Leap > arrow > dodge .
    With your method and 5 dodges , you will be 900 yard less and your resources will not have time to be restored

    I hate having to repeat myself. The first dodge gives you about 150 units compared to just walking. The first infiltrators arrow gives you 500 units compared to just walking. And initiative is worth more than endurance. So is it now clear why you do not start with a dash? Good.

    b) If we start out of combat , then the Warrior + Druid will be running by 33% vs 50% of you .
    It will be 17% difference in speed/distance x40 sec = 2040 yards and will be increasing by the second

    Out of combat movement speed has a cap. At 400. With swiftness you reach 391 movement speed. So 50% only gains 9 units per seconds. So no, at most its 360 units if you ran 40 seconds with 50% vs someone with 33%. Not 2040 or anywhere close to it.

    Try to think it more rational , you will outrun them both:)
    Or try to stealth and hide them :)

    The one who needs to "think more rational" is the one who doesnt understand basic concepts. Do not make me repeat myself again.

    a)Again you don't really understand .
    Dodge >Arrow > 2x FREE DODGES > arrow > dodges
    With your calculation you will not gain 900 yard extra speed ...

    No I do understand. I understand you do not understand how this works. Let me explain. If you do the order "dodge > Arrow" you lose a total of 350 units at the start, and then another 150 for the second you wasted. On the other hand, if you do "Arrow > dodge", you gain 350 units and gain another 150 by not wasting a second. The latter moves you more.

    b) In combat has a cap ...
    Out of combat has not ...

    Yes it does. Do not argue without understanding the basics.

    a)Again read the basic too ...
    Swiftness doesn't put near the 400 cap
    Dont try to say something that you don't really understand

    You really are making me repeat myself? Ugh. So, lets do the math. Swiftness is 33% speedboost. You start with 294 base movement speed out of combat. 294*1.33= 391. The cap is 400. So you are literally just 9 units below cap. Thats 9 units per second. Got it now?

    b) its free 2x dodges
    Its free 900 yards
    Dodge >Arrow > 2x FREE DODGES > arrow > dodges

    No its not? You dont get anything. You just start regenerating endurance 1 second faster. Like, what if I instead use arrow, then dodge thrice, then arrow again? I gain distance. Simple, isnt it?

    With you method , you will run out resources faster...

    ... no? You start regenerating resources faster with my method.

    a) Again why do you make me repeat myself...
    In the PvP area the movements speed is extremly Lowered by default .
    Its not near the 294 ...
    Its like in 194-205

    .... no? Its not? What the bloody hell are you talking about. Movement speed and its cap doesnt change other than in-combat vs out of combat. If it did ,the wiki would say it. Are you just a bad troll?

    b) You have 2x dodges that allows you to recuperate the Arrow and not run out of resources after 15 sec .
    Its called Resources management !

    No, its called "Not understanding how resources work". You regenerate the arrow as soon as you use it. By dashing first you lose 1 second of initiative regeneration and gain nothing. You lose distance traveled. Its wrong. Do you finally get it?

    a) PvE out of combat speed is different from the PvP ones .
    Just go in the PvE and and use any speed boost , you will know the difference ....

    NO IT IS NOT. If that were the case the wiki article would mention it. It doesnt. Because that isnt the case. And I did. What I found was "speed was the exact same". Youre really just that dense, arent you?

    b) With you method you will run out of resources in less than a min (3 Arrows-5 dodges)
    By my calculations you will waste 2xFREE DODGES , GAIN 900 YARD DISTANCE and then have your remaining 5x dodges + 3 arrows to manage as you wish

    Now youre just saying words without meaning. No, with my method I will not run out of resources any faster than with your method. I will however regain resources faster than with your method. I do not waste "anything". I gain 150 units distance compared to your method. Are you just a new player who doesnt know how GW2 works yet?

    I understand that you are new to the game . But ask me next time . I played from Beta till the release of HoT

    Yeah right. The guy who doesnt understand resources or even how movement speed works totally "played since the beta". Look either youre new, or youre a troll. Either way, youre wrong, I have shown youre wrong, and youre getting on my nerves. So accept that youre wrong, or just shut up.

    You simply lack some informations that it kinda ''stealthy'' .
    Its ok because you are kinda new .
    The Warclaw moves at 394 u/s in WvWvW (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mount/Mount_speed_research)
    And players with Swiftness + no other mobility skills get outpaced by Warclaws .

    Oh wow, you really just dont know anything. Here is the actual warclaws speed. Its not 394. Its 453. And thats without using the mobility skill. No duh players with swiftness get outpaced, Warclaw is a lot faster.

    204 u/s x33% swiftness = 271 u/s for a player in the PvP areas

    This is just numbers you pulled out of your kitten with no basis in anything.

    394-271 = 122 u/s (the mount gains 120 yards each second , outpacing the player )

    453 vs 394. Again, wrong, and completely pulled out of your kitten. The funny thing is, you literally had a piece of evidence in your hands where you could see that youre wrong. Remember this? Its the mount speed research tab you poorly linked. Lets look at this little line: "On foot: WvW; 100% Swiftness Speed: 392.". Now, PvE: "Land; 100% Swiftness Speed: 392". Whats this? Its literally the same? Who would ever have guessed.

    I am sorry , but you are wrong ...

    I am not, but you clearly are. And youre not sorry, youre a troll.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Warclaw
    Its movement speed in PvE is about 539 u/s
    Its base Movement Speed in WvW is about 453 u/s

    The warclaw is not a player. It doesnt have a movement speed cap in the first place. And its also got a different movement speed because the PvE version uses what used to be the warclaws movement speed in your own territory in WvW. That got removed, but PvE kept it.

    You see
    I got it right that PvP + PvE speed have different values :)

    No you are wrong. You said players have different values. I have shown that they do not. Warclaw has nothing to do with any of this. But its painfully clear now that youre just a bad troll.

    You youngster , dont you find it strange that :
    if Warclaw has 453 u/s and the player 394 u/s , that means that after 4 secthe Warclaw will be 360 yards ahead of the player ?
    Less that a Captured point from PvP (480) ?

    No I dont it find strange. Because thats exactly the case? Of course, that assumes the warclaw isnt using its mobility button. And that the player has swiftness.

    In reality , the player doesn't move at 394 , but less .
    That why after 4 sec , the munt is wayyyyyy ahead of you without dodging

    No, in reality the player with swiftness moves at 394. The wiki even says as much. Stop trolling.

    The warclaw like player , behave differently in PvE
    I am sorry , for don't knowing that :)

    The player does not move any different across gamemodes, as the wiki explicitely says. Stop trolling.

    Some wiki have not been updated
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mount/Mount_speed_research

    I respect that you don't like to admin admit that you are mistaken .
    Otherwise even a child could see that , in 4 sec Warclaw should not travel only 360 yards ahead of the player , but EVEN MORE

    I forgive you , youngling:)

    edit: pro tip : try to read the wiki .
    ''Its movement speed in PvE is about 539 u/s, which is a 83% increase over standard movement out of combat or a 37% increase over out of combat movement speed with Swiftness''

    It doesn't effected by swiftness , BUT COMPARES the mount with a normal person on foot with Swiftness
    I forgive you , youngling:)

    1 month

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    @UNOwen.7132 lol you just say things that are wrong man.

    1. Rangers and Warriors do not outpace thief in a horizontal race. I don't understand how you can possibly argue with the breakdown that I presented.

    Because the breakdown you presented is incorrect, leaves out a lot of things.

    1. You said that: "Out of combat, 33% or 50% doesnt make a difference" which is silly because in pvp you're always in combat. Even if we were talking out of combat, the DP Daredevil is still clearly faster. As much can be viewed from the breakdown.

    We were talking about a horizontal race. That does not include in-combat. And if we talk out of combat, Ranger is clearly much faster, as you can see from the corrected breakdown. Oh and fun fact: If we were talking in-combat, warrior actually pulls ahead a lot, because they spend less time just running and more time in movement.

    1. Then you say: "Additionally in order to obtain anything close to permastealth, thief has to slow down a lot. Far more than they get from it. So, not a point." It's not about permastealth, it's about the small stealths like their heal skill, which is 24s CD traited for a 6s +50% movement, or Steal if it is traited to grant stealth with significantly large reduction in CD. Between just the heal and steal, not counting any other sources of stealth, a PD Core or DP dd is essentially getting 9s of +50% movement per 24s. That's something like 40% uptime of +50% movement my dude. So if they cycle the usage wisely, they use the porting during the 15s that the 50% movement is on CD, and run with the 50% movement for 9s while init is building back up. There is an extremely small margin of time where the thief has to WASD with only 33% Swift, very small margin of time. So yeah, that +50% movement from stealth is extremely significant in this breakdown, whether you look at from in combat or out.

    "that's 50% movement on a class that can perma stealth". Quite literally what you wrote. Dont complain that I point out something you say yourself. Its not significant at all, because out of combat 33% and 50% is nearly identical (its a difference of 10 movement speed or so), and in-combat its inferior to spending more time in movement skills (if you want, I can break down in-combat movement as well. Just as a spoiler: Warrior and Ranger are faster).

    1. Shadow Step is 40s when traited in Shadow Arts my dude.

    Ah, right, fair enough.

    1. You said: "Lets put it to 40 seconds, shall we? So, we get at most 1 shadowstep" No you get 2x. You use Shadow Step immediately at the start of the 60s timer, as well as 2x SB#5s. I already pointed this out in the breakdown. You do this early, first skills used, so that they come off CD faster during the 60s timer. My good bro, you get to use Shadow Step twice in the 60s race. And don't worry, I already calculated the rest of the breakdown for Range/War in the same way with their skill usage.

    And even with that, Ranger is ahead. Without even using sword. And no, you didnt. You forgot a lot of things, as I pointed out, and made a lot of wrong assumptions.

    1. Then you go on to say: "Infiltrators arrow is not instant either. Theyre both about a second, but swoop carries you a tiny bit further." again, you're not noticing something important for this comparison. The SB#5 does have an animation time but it DOES NOT stop your WASD movement walking speed while casting it. So the Thief is still moving with WASD while the animation begins, an when it ends it instantly moves him with no interruption to the WASD movement. Swoop and Gazelle F2 or Bull's Charge or Rush, REPLACE all WASD movement and actually cause small pauses to it before and after the animations. A Swoop may be 1000 range but it is on a 10s CD that is effectively an 11s CD because the recharge doesn't begin until the 1s animation ends. The Sb#5 on the other hand, does not interrupt the initiative regen whatsoever and maintains a sound 2x 900 range uses per 12s = 1800 range per 12s, all the while not interrupting the WASD movement of the Thief at all, nor does Shadow Step or Steal.

    Why does it stopping WASD movement matter, exactly? After you use Shortbow 5, no matter how or where you move, your location is locked in. You will always travel 900 units from your original point. Thats 900 units per second. Meanwhile Rush and swoop and whatever all finish their full animation also in a second, and you can move freely instantly. Thats 1200 units per second. Thats more distance covered in the same time. That is all that matters. I get what youre trying to do, muddle the waters to hide important aspects that dismantle your argument, but it doesnt work.

    1. And then this here is just entirely and completely incorrect in every possible way. You said that: "You get both Bird Swoop and Gazelle Charge, actually. You cant swap pets in-combat, but were not looking at in-combat. So thats 1200 on 12 seconds and Swoops 1200 on 18 seconds. Theyre also both about a second." OK so first, we are looking at in-combat because that's what happens in a pvp setting. When you're talking about things chasing each other and running from each other, that's what's happening, people in combat. When a Soulbeast is in combat it can't swap pets. Even if we were talking about out of combat, you are seriously not understanding some things about Ranger here. Again, Soulbeast does not use Swiftness skills. It relies on Beastmastery trait merge for a flat 30% movement speed WHILE MERGED. When you try to swap pets, they go on a 9s CD and during that 9s you do not benefit the 30% movement. Even if you were using Swiftness from the bird when it was unmerged, it only lasts 10s and it takes time to cast. Then when you swap to the Gazelle the pet swap goes on 9s CD and merge will be on a 10s CD after you left bird. So now you swap to Gazelle and you have to stand there and wait for the merge CD to come off timer before you can even get into the Gazelle to use the F2. So theoretically I see what you're trying to argue but it doesn't pan out in the way that you were thinking because of merge timer. In other words, without writing a thesis on this one aspect, you'll make better distance by camping beast mode in Gazelle for the 30% movement baseline and F2 Charge on a 13s cycle. Trying to swap pets and adding in that 9 to 10s buffer to wait to remerge will kill your skill usage cycling & distance.

    Lots to unpack here. Let me just copy the important parts and address them one by one.

    OK so first, we are looking at in-combat because that's what happens in a pvp setting

    No we arent. Were talking about a horizontal race. You dont have a race in-combat. And the original context was about cross-map movement. You know, going to decap and +1? You also do that out of combat. So already youre very wrong.

    Again, Soulbeast does not use Swiftness skills

    Oh, do they now?. Yeah thats a load of kitten. And you use it while merged. And then there are stances or warhorn or whatever.

    1. Then you say: "You get swiftness from owl + your choice between stances, warhorn, or whatever. You hit the max cap all the same." OK first of all, whatever you're referencing is not going to be any faster than any other Soulbeast build aside from some +3% gain in movement from having Swiftness over merge trait. Upon that, using warhorn and stances and owl on a Soulbeast is not a practical build to be using in pvp. You need to be using Longbow and Greatsword, and Smokescale, because when you merge and go into combat you cannot swap pets and you need the Smokescale the most for obvious reasons. So whatever you're referencing here is about as far away as it could get from a realistic build comparison.

    Its not much of a boost, but its a boost. And again, talking out of combat, so you hit the movement speed cap. And sure its not a practical build because you dont care for map movement since you need vertical movement. But in WvW, its actually a build. A version of boonbeast specifically.

    1. Then you start talking about 1hand Sword on a Ranger. Just no. You suggest the idea that someone is going to run Greatsword for Swoop with a 1hand Sword with a Warhorn apparnetly for competitive purposes? Even if they did and even if they were out of combat, that 1hand Sword jump has this weird hampering effect with its animation that hinders the Ranger just enough to where it barely gains any distance at all compared to what the tooltip says. If you're talking a foot race like this, the 600 range on Sword#2 is more like 300 range in terms of distance gained because of the weird animation at the beginning and the pause at the end before the Ranger is allowed to move with WASD afterwards. And upon that man, that build would be terrible in combat regardless of if it was DPS or Bunker, doesn't matter. Those weapon sets would be hot garbage together. The days of old Boonbeast setups have been looooooong gone for awhile now man. Sword/Warhorn/Greatsword would get you jacked up in a hurry if you tried to run it in pvp or wvw.

    That "weird animation" is called a cast time. Its still faster. And sure, as I said, its redundant anyway. Youre ahead. And sure it wouldnt be good for 1v1s or teamfights. But neither is thief, is it? The point is to have a hypothetical thief analogue that can move across the map if they were horizontal.

    1. And then War I'm not going to discuss because it's slower than Ranger and Ranger is slower than Thief, and the same mistakes were made while viewing the breakdown, concerning not taking into account the hampering of movement from animations. A good example on War is GS#3 Whirlwind. That skill has some serious animation hampering. It doesn't boost you ahead nearly as much as the tooltip would make you think. Using a WW alongside of a guy who was just running with Swiftness 33%, would only put you ahead maybe 60-80 range from him, due to how the animation actually works.

    Its slower than ranger, yes. Its faster than thief. I did not make any mistakes. I counted the animation and stated it. It boosts you by exactly as much as I have said.

    At any rate man, the purpose of my comparisons were to use realistic build structures for pvp while being in combat. The purpose was not to point out theoretical weird run builds designed for GW1 Droknar's Forge run. I could do the same thing for Thief, point out of a bunch theoretical options that could improve its movement speed and init gain, ect ect, but that's unrealistic.

    You couldnt. Youre pretty much hitting the cap. Roll for initiative, perhaps, but that barely boosts you, and then youre tapped out. The purpose was to show that in horizontal movement thief is faster than ranger and warrior, and you failed to show that at all, because its not true.

    But just to humour you, what if it was in-combat? Well lets start with warrior. Its easier. 12600 over 16.45 remains the same, its not affected by in combat vs out of combat. So, 23.5 seconds of swiftness movement. Thats 280 units per second. So 23.5*280= 6580. For a total of 19180 units in 40 seconds. To compare, thief has the 7200 over 8. So, 32 seconds of movement. Lets be very generous and assume thief has 50% extra movement speed during the entire 32 seconds (needless to say, he wont). Thats 32*315= 10080. For a total of 17280. Thats almost 2k less. And that was with me being very generous. If we instead assume realistically the thief only has, lets say, 12 seconds of 50% movement, then its only 16580. Almost 3k less. Yeah, pretty rough for the thief, innit?

    You maths are kinda off by a bit
    a) For example you didn't calculate that Thief can use Dash (450 yards yard range) x6times in those 40 sec
    (2 in start + once every 10 sec) .

    So I didnt. Although its 5 times, not 6. 3 at the start, then one every 10 seconds, but you dont start with dash. Thats 750 units. Less far behind, but still behind.

    b) The 50% speed bonus on stealth is translated into 36-37% movement speed in combat

    Well, I did say "its about 10 units or so". 9 to be precise. You throw in about, idk, 110 units. Its still behind.

    c) Combining those 2 , you will get out of combat faster without being him and your 50% out of combat speed in stealth will be fully enabled

    Nah, if you combine those 2 thief still falls behind by a lot.

    and d) if you stealth , he cannot outrun you , because he cannot find you :)

    Thats not how outrunning is defined.

    Yeah it seems both of us haven't played much GW2 :)
    Daredevil has 3 dodges from the start + once per 10 sec . So in total is 7 in 40 sec

    Wait did I mess up my math? Oh its 6. Not 7. You dont start with dash. You start with shortbow 5, since initiative is more important to recharge.

    In an combat race , you start with the more easy available spell , in our case is Dash . Otherwise the delay from switching weapon + use the Arrow can be fatal . You can equip it while on the Dash animation

    Nope, see above.

    The 50% speed bonus on stealth is translated into 36-37% movement speed in combat
    Druids and Warriors with swiftness its 33%

    Percentage is meaningless, you want the real unit. That is a difference of 9 units per second. So after 40 seconds of running, youd barely be at 360. Its not much.

    I pretty sure the Thiefs will get out of combat faster and his 50% speed will be enabled :)

    He wont actually. And this is not what the race is about. And the 50% speed is meaningless, as seen above.

    a) Nope see above , you start with the Dash , you will waste 0,5 sec by equipping the shortbow and till the arrow its traveled .
    Its more scientific acceptable to do that while you are on the Dash animation
    edit: With my method (7 dashes) , i can use 2 Dash to give my resources time to recuperate + travel 900 more yards

    You dont. You dont equip shortbow, and you start with shortbow because initiative is more important of a resource than endurance. Its 1.5 units per second when youre regening endurance, vs 150 per second with shortbow 5. PRetty big.

    b)Its not 9 units .
    Its 3% difference movement increased x 40 sec = the number will be inflating even after that = they will never catch you

    Its literally 9 units per second. Its 391 units per second vs 400 units per second. Its so little its irrelevant.

    c) I pretty sure the Thiefs will get out of combat faster and his 50% speed will be enabled will travel even more distance

    Again, we start out of combat. And again, the speed makes close to no difference.

    a)No sorry , but with your method you will be off by 900 yards less from your goal .
    Try to imagine the first dodge , as a free 450 yard Leap > arrow > dodge .
    With your method and 5 dodges , you will be 900 yard less and your resources will not have time to be restored

    I hate having to repeat myself. The first dodge gives you about 150 units compared to just walking. The first infiltrators arrow gives you 500 units compared to just walking. And initiative is worth more than endurance. So is it now clear why you do not start with a dash? Good.

    b) If we start out of combat , then the Warrior + Druid will be running by 33% vs 50% of you .
    It will be 17% difference in speed/distance x40 sec = 2040 yards and will be increasing by the second

    Out of combat movement speed has a cap. At 400. With swiftness you reach 391 movement speed. So 50% only gains 9 units per seconds. So no, at most its 360 units if you ran 40 seconds with 50% vs someone with 33%. Not 2040 or anywhere close to it.

    Try to think it more rational , you will outrun them both:)
    Or try to stealth and hide them :)

    The one who needs to "think more rational" is the one who doesnt understand basic concepts. Do not make me repeat myself again.

    a)Again you don't really understand .
    Dodge >Arrow > 2x FREE DODGES > arrow > dodges
    With your calculation you will not gain 900 yard extra speed ...

    No I do understand. I understand you do not understand how this works. Let me explain. If you do the order "dodge > Arrow" you lose a total of 350 units at the start, and then another 150 for the second you wasted. On the other hand, if you do "Arrow > dodge", you gain 350 units and gain another 150 by not wasting a second. The latter moves you more.

    b) In combat has a cap ...
    Out of combat has not ...

    Yes it does. Do not argue without understanding the basics.

    a)Again read the basic too ...
    Swiftness doesn't put near the 400 cap
    Dont try to say something that you don't really understand

    You really are making me repeat myself? Ugh. So, lets do the math. Swiftness is 33% speedboost. You start with 294 base movement speed out of combat. 294*1.33= 391. The cap is 400. So you are literally just 9 units below cap. Thats 9 units per second. Got it now?

    b) its free 2x dodges
    Its free 900 yards
    Dodge >Arrow > 2x FREE DODGES > arrow > dodges

    No its not? You dont get anything. You just start regenerating endurance 1 second faster. Like, what if I instead use arrow, then dodge thrice, then arrow again? I gain distance. Simple, isnt it?

    With you method , you will run out resources faster...

    ... no? You start regenerating resources faster with my method.

    a) Again why do you make me repeat myself...
    In the PvP area the movements speed is extremly Lowered by default .
    Its not near the 294 ...
    Its like in 194-205

    .... no? Its not? What the bloody hell are you talking about. Movement speed and its cap doesnt change other than in-combat vs out of combat. If it did ,the wiki would say it. Are you just a bad troll?

    b) You have 2x dodges that allows you to recuperate the Arrow and not run out of resources after 15 sec .
    Its called Resources management !

    No, its called "Not understanding how resources work". You regenerate the arrow as soon as you use it. By dashing first you lose 1 second of initiative regeneration and gain nothing. You lose distance traveled. Its wrong. Do you finally get it?

    a) PvE out of combat speed is different from the PvP ones .
    Just go in the PvE and and use any speed boost , you will know the difference ....

    NO IT IS NOT. If that were the case the wiki article would mention it. It doesnt. Because that isnt the case. And I did. What I found was "speed was the exact same". Youre really just that dense, arent you?

    b) With you method you will run out of resources in less than a min (3 Arrows-5 dodges)
    By my calculations you will waste 2xFREE DODGES , GAIN 900 YARD DISTANCE and then have your remaining 5x dodges + 3 arrows to manage as you wish

    Now youre just saying words without meaning. No, with my method I will not run out of resources any faster than with your method. I will however regain resources faster than with your method. I do not waste "anything". I gain 150 units distance compared to your method. Are you just a new player who doesnt know how GW2 works yet?

    I understand that you are new to the game . But ask me next time . I played from Beta till the release of HoT

    Yeah right. The guy who doesnt understand resources or even how movement speed works totally "played since the beta". Look either youre new, or youre a troll. Either way, youre wrong, I have shown youre wrong, and youre getting on my nerves. So accept that youre wrong, or just shut up.

    You simply lack some informations that it kinda ''stealthy'' .
    Its ok because you are kinda new .
    The Warclaw moves at 394 u/s in WvWvW (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mount/Mount_speed_research)
    And players with Swiftness + no other mobility skills get outpaced by Warclaws .

    Oh wow, you really just dont know anything. Here is the actual warclaws speed. Its not 394. Its 453. And thats without using the mobility skill. No duh players with swiftness get outpaced, Warclaw is a lot faster.

    204 u/s x33% swiftness = 271 u/s for a player in the PvP areas

    This is just numbers you pulled out of your kitten with no basis in anything.

    394-271 = 122 u/s (the mount gains 120 yards each second , outpacing the player )

    453 vs 394. Again, wrong, and completely pulled out of your kitten. The funny thing is, you literally had a piece of evidence in your hands where you could see that youre wrong. Remember this? Its the mount speed research tab you poorly linked. Lets look at this little line: "On foot: WvW; 100% Swiftness Speed: 392.". Now, PvE: "Land; 100% Swiftness Speed: 392". Whats this? Its literally the same? Who would ever have guessed.

    I am sorry , but you are wrong ...

    I am not, but you clearly are. And youre not sorry, youre a troll.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Warclaw
    Its movement speed in PvE is about 539 u/s
    Its base Movement Speed in WvW is about 453 u/s

    The warclaw is not a player. It doesnt have a movement speed cap in the first place. And its also got a different movement speed because the PvE version uses what used to be the warclaws movement speed in your own territory in WvW. That got removed, but PvE kept it.

    You see
    I got it right that PvP + PvE speed have different values :)

    No you are wrong. You said players have different values. I have shown that they do not. Warclaw has nothing to do with any of this. But its painfully clear now that youre just a bad troll.

    You youngster , dont you find it strange that :
    if Warclaw has 453 u/s and the player 394 u/s , that means that after 4 secthe Warclaw will be 360 yards ahead of the player ?
    Less that a Captured point from PvP (480) ?

    No I dont it find strange. Because thats exactly the case? Of course, that assumes the warclaw isnt using its mobility button. And that the player has swiftness.

    In reality , the player doesn't move at 394 , but less .
    That why after 4 sec , the munt is wayyyyyy ahead of you without dodging

    No, in reality the player with swiftness moves at 394. The wiki even says as much. Stop trolling.

    The warclaw like player , behave differently in PvE
    I am sorry , for don't knowing that :)

    The player does not move any different across gamemodes, as the wiki explicitely says. Stop trolling.

    Some wiki have not been updated
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mount/Mount_speed_research

    You mean, the page where it says pretty clearly "WvW player speed is 100% COMPLETELY IDENTICAL to PvE player speed"?

    I respect that you don't like to admin admit that you are mistaken .
    Otherwise even a child could see that , in 4 sec Warclaw should not travel only 360 yards ahead of the player , but EVEN MORE

    The only one refusing to admit their mistake is you. And no, if the player has swiftness and the warclaw doesnt use its dodge ability, thats exactly how much (or little) the warclaw gets ahead.

    edit: pro tip : try to read the wiki .
    ''Its movement speed in PvE is about 539 u/s, which is a 83% increase over standard movement out of combat or a 37% increase over out of combat movement speed with Swiftness''

    Which pretty clearly says "Player speed doesnt change in WvW". Else it wouldnt compare to PvE speeds, would it?

  • Naqam a.6521Naqam a.6521 Member ✭✭
    edited September 13, 2020

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    @UNOwen.7132 lol you just say things that are wrong man.

    1. Rangers and Warriors do not outpace thief in a horizontal race. I don't understand how you can possibly argue with the breakdown that I presented.

    Because the breakdown you presented is incorrect, leaves out a lot of things.

    1. You said that: "Out of combat, 33% or 50% doesnt make a difference" which is silly because in pvp you're always in combat. Even if we were talking out of combat, the DP Daredevil is still clearly faster. As much can be viewed from the breakdown.

    We were talking about a horizontal race. That does not include in-combat. And if we talk out of combat, Ranger is clearly much faster, as you can see from the corrected breakdown. Oh and fun fact: If we were talking in-combat, warrior actually pulls ahead a lot, because they spend less time just running and more time in movement.

    1. Then you say: "Additionally in order to obtain anything close to permastealth, thief has to slow down a lot. Far more than they get from it. So, not a point." It's not about permastealth, it's about the small stealths like their heal skill, which is 24s CD traited for a 6s +50% movement, or Steal if it is traited to grant stealth with significantly large reduction in CD. Between just the heal and steal, not counting any other sources of stealth, a PD Core or DP dd is essentially getting 9s of +50% movement per 24s. That's something like 40% uptime of +50% movement my dude. So if they cycle the usage wisely, they use the porting during the 15s that the 50% movement is on CD, and run with the 50% movement for 9s while init is building back up. There is an extremely small margin of time where the thief has to WASD with only 33% Swift, very small margin of time. So yeah, that +50% movement from stealth is extremely significant in this breakdown, whether you look at from in combat or out.

    "that's 50% movement on a class that can perma stealth". Quite literally what you wrote. Dont complain that I point out something you say yourself. Its not significant at all, because out of combat 33% and 50% is nearly identical (its a difference of 10 movement speed or so), and in-combat its inferior to spending more time in movement skills (if you want, I can break down in-combat movement as well. Just as a spoiler: Warrior and Ranger are faster).

    1. Shadow Step is 40s when traited in Shadow Arts my dude.

    Ah, right, fair enough.

    1. You said: "Lets put it to 40 seconds, shall we? So, we get at most 1 shadowstep" No you get 2x. You use Shadow Step immediately at the start of the 60s timer, as well as 2x SB#5s. I already pointed this out in the breakdown. You do this early, first skills used, so that they come off CD faster during the 60s timer. My good bro, you get to use Shadow Step twice in the 60s race. And don't worry, I already calculated the rest of the breakdown for Range/War in the same way with their skill usage.

    And even with that, Ranger is ahead. Without even using sword. And no, you didnt. You forgot a lot of things, as I pointed out, and made a lot of wrong assumptions.

    1. Then you go on to say: "Infiltrators arrow is not instant either. Theyre both about a second, but swoop carries you a tiny bit further." again, you're not noticing something important for this comparison. The SB#5 does have an animation time but it DOES NOT stop your WASD movement walking speed while casting it. So the Thief is still moving with WASD while the animation begins, an when it ends it instantly moves him with no interruption to the WASD movement. Swoop and Gazelle F2 or Bull's Charge or Rush, REPLACE all WASD movement and actually cause small pauses to it before and after the animations. A Swoop may be 1000 range but it is on a 10s CD that is effectively an 11s CD because the recharge doesn't begin until the 1s animation ends. The Sb#5 on the other hand, does not interrupt the initiative regen whatsoever and maintains a sound 2x 900 range uses per 12s = 1800 range per 12s, all the while not interrupting the WASD movement of the Thief at all, nor does Shadow Step or Steal.

    Why does it stopping WASD movement matter, exactly? After you use Shortbow 5, no matter how or where you move, your location is locked in. You will always travel 900 units from your original point. Thats 900 units per second. Meanwhile Rush and swoop and whatever all finish their full animation also in a second, and you can move freely instantly. Thats 1200 units per second. Thats more distance covered in the same time. That is all that matters. I get what youre trying to do, muddle the waters to hide important aspects that dismantle your argument, but it doesnt work.

    1. And then this here is just entirely and completely incorrect in every possible way. You said that: "You get both Bird Swoop and Gazelle Charge, actually. You cant swap pets in-combat, but were not looking at in-combat. So thats 1200 on 12 seconds and Swoops 1200 on 18 seconds. Theyre also both about a second." OK so first, we are looking at in-combat because that's what happens in a pvp setting. When you're talking about things chasing each other and running from each other, that's what's happening, people in combat. When a Soulbeast is in combat it can't swap pets. Even if we were talking about out of combat, you are seriously not understanding some things about Ranger here. Again, Soulbeast does not use Swiftness skills. It relies on Beastmastery trait merge for a flat 30% movement speed WHILE MERGED. When you try to swap pets, they go on a 9s CD and during that 9s you do not benefit the 30% movement. Even if you were using Swiftness from the bird when it was unmerged, it only lasts 10s and it takes time to cast. Then when you swap to the Gazelle the pet swap goes on 9s CD and merge will be on a 10s CD after you left bird. So now you swap to Gazelle and you have to stand there and wait for the merge CD to come off timer before you can even get into the Gazelle to use the F2. So theoretically I see what you're trying to argue but it doesn't pan out in the way that you were thinking because of merge timer. In other words, without writing a thesis on this one aspect, you'll make better distance by camping beast mode in Gazelle for the 30% movement baseline and F2 Charge on a 13s cycle. Trying to swap pets and adding in that 9 to 10s buffer to wait to remerge will kill your skill usage cycling & distance.

    Lots to unpack here. Let me just copy the important parts and address them one by one.

    OK so first, we are looking at in-combat because that's what happens in a pvp setting

    No we arent. Were talking about a horizontal race. You dont have a race in-combat. And the original context was about cross-map movement. You know, going to decap and +1? You also do that out of combat. So already youre very wrong.

    Again, Soulbeast does not use Swiftness skills

    Oh, do they now?. Yeah thats a load of kitten. And you use it while merged. And then there are stances or warhorn or whatever.

    1. Then you say: "You get swiftness from owl + your choice between stances, warhorn, or whatever. You hit the max cap all the same." OK first of all, whatever you're referencing is not going to be any faster than any other Soulbeast build aside from some +3% gain in movement from having Swiftness over merge trait. Upon that, using warhorn and stances and owl on a Soulbeast is not a practical build to be using in pvp. You need to be using Longbow and Greatsword, and Smokescale, because when you merge and go into combat you cannot swap pets and you need the Smokescale the most for obvious reasons. So whatever you're referencing here is about as far away as it could get from a realistic build comparison.

    Its not much of a boost, but its a boost. And again, talking out of combat, so you hit the movement speed cap. And sure its not a practical build because you dont care for map movement since you need vertical movement. But in WvW, its actually a build. A version of boonbeast specifically.

    1. Then you start talking about 1hand Sword on a Ranger. Just no. You suggest the idea that someone is going to run Greatsword for Swoop with a 1hand Sword with a Warhorn apparnetly for competitive purposes? Even if they did and even if they were out of combat, that 1hand Sword jump has this weird hampering effect with its animation that hinders the Ranger just enough to where it barely gains any distance at all compared to what the tooltip says. If you're talking a foot race like this, the 600 range on Sword#2 is more like 300 range in terms of distance gained because of the weird animation at the beginning and the pause at the end before the Ranger is allowed to move with WASD afterwards. And upon that man, that build would be terrible in combat regardless of if it was DPS or Bunker, doesn't matter. Those weapon sets would be hot garbage together. The days of old Boonbeast setups have been looooooong gone for awhile now man. Sword/Warhorn/Greatsword would get you jacked up in a hurry if you tried to run it in pvp or wvw.

    That "weird animation" is called a cast time. Its still faster. And sure, as I said, its redundant anyway. Youre ahead. And sure it wouldnt be good for 1v1s or teamfights. But neither is thief, is it? The point is to have a hypothetical thief analogue that can move across the map if they were horizontal.

    1. And then War I'm not going to discuss because it's slower than Ranger and Ranger is slower than Thief, and the same mistakes were made while viewing the breakdown, concerning not taking into account the hampering of movement from animations. A good example on War is GS#3 Whirlwind. That skill has some serious animation hampering. It doesn't boost you ahead nearly as much as the tooltip would make you think. Using a WW alongside of a guy who was just running with Swiftness 33%, would only put you ahead maybe 60-80 range from him, due to how the animation actually works.

    Its slower than ranger, yes. Its faster than thief. I did not make any mistakes. I counted the animation and stated it. It boosts you by exactly as much as I have said.

    At any rate man, the purpose of my comparisons were to use realistic build structures for pvp while being in combat. The purpose was not to point out theoretical weird run builds designed for GW1 Droknar's Forge run. I could do the same thing for Thief, point out of a bunch theoretical options that could improve its movement speed and init gain, ect ect, but that's unrealistic.

    You couldnt. Youre pretty much hitting the cap. Roll for initiative, perhaps, but that barely boosts you, and then youre tapped out. The purpose was to show that in horizontal movement thief is faster than ranger and warrior, and you failed to show that at all, because its not true.

    But just to humour you, what if it was in-combat? Well lets start with warrior. Its easier. 12600 over 16.45 remains the same, its not affected by in combat vs out of combat. So, 23.5 seconds of swiftness movement. Thats 280 units per second. So 23.5*280= 6580. For a total of 19180 units in 40 seconds. To compare, thief has the 7200 over 8. So, 32 seconds of movement. Lets be very generous and assume thief has 50% extra movement speed during the entire 32 seconds (needless to say, he wont). Thats 32*315= 10080. For a total of 17280. Thats almost 2k less. And that was with me being very generous. If we instead assume realistically the thief only has, lets say, 12 seconds of 50% movement, then its only 16580. Almost 3k less. Yeah, pretty rough for the thief, innit?

    You maths are kinda off by a bit
    a) For example you didn't calculate that Thief can use Dash (450 yards yard range) x6times in those 40 sec
    (2 in start + once every 10 sec) .

    So I didnt. Although its 5 times, not 6. 3 at the start, then one every 10 seconds, but you dont start with dash. Thats 750 units. Less far behind, but still behind.

    b) The 50% speed bonus on stealth is translated into 36-37% movement speed in combat

    Well, I did say "its about 10 units or so". 9 to be precise. You throw in about, idk, 110 units. Its still behind.

    c) Combining those 2 , you will get out of combat faster without being him and your 50% out of combat speed in stealth will be fully enabled

    Nah, if you combine those 2 thief still falls behind by a lot.

    and d) if you stealth , he cannot outrun you , because he cannot find you :)

    Thats not how outrunning is defined.

    Yeah it seems both of us haven't played much GW2 :)
    Daredevil has 3 dodges from the start + once per 10 sec . So in total is 7 in 40 sec

    Wait did I mess up my math? Oh its 6. Not 7. You dont start with dash. You start with shortbow 5, since initiative is more important to recharge.

    In an combat race , you start with the more easy available spell , in our case is Dash . Otherwise the delay from switching weapon + use the Arrow can be fatal . You can equip it while on the Dash animation

    Nope, see above.

    The 50% speed bonus on stealth is translated into 36-37% movement speed in combat
    Druids and Warriors with swiftness its 33%

    Percentage is meaningless, you want the real unit. That is a difference of 9 units per second. So after 40 seconds of running, youd barely be at 360. Its not much.

    I pretty sure the Thiefs will get out of combat faster and his 50% speed will be enabled :)

    He wont actually. And this is not what the race is about. And the 50% speed is meaningless, as seen above.

    a) Nope see above , you start with the Dash , you will waste 0,5 sec by equipping the shortbow and till the arrow its traveled .
    Its more scientific acceptable to do that while you are on the Dash animation
    edit: With my method (7 dashes) , i can use 2 Dash to give my resources time to recuperate + travel 900 more yards

    You dont. You dont equip shortbow, and you start with shortbow because initiative is more important of a resource than endurance. Its 1.5 units per second when youre regening endurance, vs 150 per second with shortbow 5. PRetty big.

    b)Its not 9 units .
    Its 3% difference movement increased x 40 sec = the number will be inflating even after that = they will never catch you

    Its literally 9 units per second. Its 391 units per second vs 400 units per second. Its so little its irrelevant.

    c) I pretty sure the Thiefs will get out of combat faster and his 50% speed will be enabled will travel even more distance

    Again, we start out of combat. And again, the speed makes close to no difference.

    a)No sorry , but with your method you will be off by 900 yards less from your goal .
    Try to imagine the first dodge , as a free 450 yard Leap > arrow > dodge .
    With your method and 5 dodges , you will be 900 yard less and your resources will not have time to be restored

    I hate having to repeat myself. The first dodge gives you about 150 units compared to just walking. The first infiltrators arrow gives you 500 units compared to just walking. And initiative is worth more than endurance. So is it now clear why you do not start with a dash? Good.

    b) If we start out of combat , then the Warrior + Druid will be running by 33% vs 50% of you .
    It will be 17% difference in speed/distance x40 sec = 2040 yards and will be increasing by the second

    Out of combat movement speed has a cap. At 400. With swiftness you reach 391 movement speed. So 50% only gains 9 units per seconds. So no, at most its 360 units if you ran 40 seconds with 50% vs someone with 33%. Not 2040 or anywhere close to it.

    Try to think it more rational , you will outrun them both:)
    Or try to stealth and hide them :)

    The one who needs to "think more rational" is the one who doesnt understand basic concepts. Do not make me repeat myself again.

    a)Again you don't really understand .
    Dodge >Arrow > 2x FREE DODGES > arrow > dodges
    With your calculation you will not gain 900 yard extra speed ...

    No I do understand. I understand you do not understand how this works. Let me explain. If you do the order "dodge > Arrow" you lose a total of 350 units at the start, and then another 150 for the second you wasted. On the other hand, if you do "Arrow > dodge", you gain 350 units and gain another 150 by not wasting a second. The latter moves you more.

    b) In combat has a cap ...
    Out of combat has not ...

    Yes it does. Do not argue without understanding the basics.

    a)Again read the basic too ...
    Swiftness doesn't put near the 400 cap
    Dont try to say something that you don't really understand

    You really are making me repeat myself? Ugh. So, lets do the math. Swiftness is 33% speedboost. You start with 294 base movement speed out of combat. 294*1.33= 391. The cap is 400. So you are literally just 9 units below cap. Thats 9 units per second. Got it now?

    b) its free 2x dodges
    Its free 900 yards
    Dodge >Arrow > 2x FREE DODGES > arrow > dodges

    No its not? You dont get anything. You just start regenerating endurance 1 second faster. Like, what if I instead use arrow, then dodge thrice, then arrow again? I gain distance. Simple, isnt it?

    With you method , you will run out resources faster...

    ... no? You start regenerating resources faster with my method.

    a) Again why do you make me repeat myself...
    In the PvP area the movements speed is extremly Lowered by default .
    Its not near the 294 ...
    Its like in 194-205

    .... no? Its not? What the bloody hell are you talking about. Movement speed and its cap doesnt change other than in-combat vs out of combat. If it did ,the wiki would say it. Are you just a bad troll?

    b) You have 2x dodges that allows you to recuperate the Arrow and not run out of resources after 15 sec .
    Its called Resources management !

    No, its called "Not understanding how resources work". You regenerate the arrow as soon as you use it. By dashing first you lose 1 second of initiative regeneration and gain nothing. You lose distance traveled. Its wrong. Do you finally get it?

    a) PvE out of combat speed is different from the PvP ones .
    Just go in the PvE and and use any speed boost , you will know the difference ....

    NO IT IS NOT. If that were the case the wiki article would mention it. It doesnt. Because that isnt the case. And I did. What I found was "speed was the exact same". Youre really just that dense, arent you?

    b) With you method you will run out of resources in less than a min (3 Arrows-5 dodges)
    By my calculations you will waste 2xFREE DODGES , GAIN 900 YARD DISTANCE and then have your remaining 5x dodges + 3 arrows to manage as you wish

    Now youre just saying words without meaning. No, with my method I will not run out of resources any faster than with your method. I will however regain resources faster than with your method. I do not waste "anything". I gain 150 units distance compared to your method. Are you just a new player who doesnt know how GW2 works yet?

    I understand that you are new to the game . But ask me next time . I played from Beta till the release of HoT

    Yeah right. The guy who doesnt understand resources or even how movement speed works totally "played since the beta". Look either youre new, or youre a troll. Either way, youre wrong, I have shown youre wrong, and youre getting on my nerves. So accept that youre wrong, or just shut up.

    You simply lack some informations that it kinda ''stealthy'' .
    Its ok because you are kinda new .
    The Warclaw moves at 394 u/s in WvWvW (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mount/Mount_speed_research)
    And players with Swiftness + no other mobility skills get outpaced by Warclaws .

    Oh wow, you really just dont know anything. Here is the actual warclaws speed. Its not 394. Its 453. And thats without using the mobility skill. No duh players with swiftness get outpaced, Warclaw is a lot faster.

    204 u/s x33% swiftness = 271 u/s for a player in the PvP areas

    This is just numbers you pulled out of your kitten with no basis in anything.

    394-271 = 122 u/s (the mount gains 120 yards each second , outpacing the player )

    453 vs 394. Again, wrong, and completely pulled out of your kitten. The funny thing is, you literally had a piece of evidence in your hands where you could see that youre wrong. Remember this? Its the mount speed research tab you poorly linked. Lets look at this little line: "On foot: WvW; 100% Swiftness Speed: 392.". Now, PvE: "Land; 100% Swiftness Speed: 392". Whats this? Its literally the same? Who would ever have guessed.

    I am sorry , but you are wrong ...

    I am not, but you clearly are. And youre not sorry, youre a troll.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Warclaw
    Its movement speed in PvE is about 539 u/s
    Its base Movement Speed in WvW is about 453 u/s

    The warclaw is not a player. It doesnt have a movement speed cap in the first place. And its also got a different movement speed because the PvE version uses what used to be the warclaws movement speed in your own territory in WvW. That got removed, but PvE kept it.

    You see
    I got it right that PvP + PvE speed have different values :)

    No you are wrong. You said players have different values. I have shown that they do not. Warclaw has nothing to do with any of this. But its painfully clear now that youre just a bad troll.

    You youngster , dont you find it strange that :
    if Warclaw has 453 u/s and the player 394 u/s , that means that after 4 secthe Warclaw will be 360 yards ahead of the player ?
    Less that a Captured point from PvP (480) ?

    No I dont it find strange. Because thats exactly the case? Of course, that assumes the warclaw isnt using its mobility button. And that the player has swiftness.

    In reality , the player doesn't move at 394 , but less .
    That why after 4 sec , the munt is wayyyyyy ahead of you without dodging

    No, in reality the player with swiftness moves at 394. The wiki even says as much. Stop trolling.

    The warclaw like player , behave differently in PvE
    I am sorry , for don't knowing that :)

    The player does not move any different across gamemodes, as the wiki explicitely says. Stop trolling.

    Some wiki have not been updated
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mount/Mount_speed_research

    You mean, the page where it says pretty clearly "WvW player speed is 100% COMPLETELY IDENTICAL to PvE player speed"?

    I respect that you don't like to admin admit that you are mistaken .
    Otherwise even a child could see that , in 4 sec Warclaw should not travel only 360 yards ahead of the player , but EVEN MORE

    The only one refusing to admit their mistake is you. And no, if the player has swiftness and the warclaw doesnt use its dodge ability, thats exactly how much (or little) the warclaw gets ahead.

    edit: pro tip : try to read the wiki .
    ''Its movement speed in PvE is about 539 u/s, which is a 83% increase over standard movement out of combat or a 37% increase over out of combat movement speed with Swiftness''

    Which pretty clearly says "Player speed doesnt change in WvW". Else it wouldnt compare to PvE speeds, would it?

    a) Yeah i am sorry , i forgot you tunnel vision in order to try to implore you re right
    Check the speed , it says 394 u/s

    b) the distance difference in 4 sec , is not 360 yards , but doubled or 2,5

    c) try to walk with Swiftness in PvE and then try WvWvW

    Youngling :)

    1 month

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    @UNOwen.7132 lol you just say things that are wrong man.

    1. Rangers and Warriors do not outpace thief in a horizontal race. I don't understand how you can possibly argue with the breakdown that I presented.

    Because the breakdown you presented is incorrect, leaves out a lot of things.

    1. You said that: "Out of combat, 33% or 50% doesnt make a difference" which is silly because in pvp you're always in combat. Even if we were talking out of combat, the DP Daredevil is still clearly faster. As much can be viewed from the breakdown.

    We were talking about a horizontal race. That does not include in-combat. And if we talk out of combat, Ranger is clearly much faster, as you can see from the corrected breakdown. Oh and fun fact: If we were talking in-combat, warrior actually pulls ahead a lot, because they spend less time just running and more time in movement.

    1. Then you say: "Additionally in order to obtain anything close to permastealth, thief has to slow down a lot. Far more than they get from it. So, not a point." It's not about permastealth, it's about the small stealths like their heal skill, which is 24s CD traited for a 6s +50% movement, or Steal if it is traited to grant stealth with significantly large reduction in CD. Between just the heal and steal, not counting any other sources of stealth, a PD Core or DP dd is essentially getting 9s of +50% movement per 24s. That's something like 40% uptime of +50% movement my dude. So if they cycle the usage wisely, they use the porting during the 15s that the 50% movement is on CD, and run with the 50% movement for 9s while init is building back up. There is an extremely small margin of time where the thief has to WASD with only 33% Swift, very small margin of time. So yeah, that +50% movement from stealth is extremely significant in this breakdown, whether you look at from in combat or out.

    "that's 50% movement on a class that can perma stealth". Quite literally what you wrote. Dont complain that I point out something you say yourself. Its not significant at all, because out of combat 33% and 50% is nearly identical (its a difference of 10 movement speed or so), and in-combat its inferior to spending more time in movement skills (if you want, I can break down in-combat movement as well. Just as a spoiler: Warrior and Ranger are faster).

    1. Shadow Step is 40s when traited in Shadow Arts my dude.

    Ah, right, fair enough.

    1. You said: "Lets put it to 40 seconds, shall we? So, we get at most 1 shadowstep" No you get 2x. You use Shadow Step immediately at the start of the 60s timer, as well as 2x SB#5s. I already pointed this out in the breakdown. You do this early, first skills used, so that they come off CD faster during the 60s timer. My good bro, you get to use Shadow Step twice in the 60s race. And don't worry, I already calculated the rest of the breakdown for Range/War in the same way with their skill usage.

    And even with that, Ranger is ahead. Without even using sword. And no, you didnt. You forgot a lot of things, as I pointed out, and made a lot of wrong assumptions.

    1. Then you go on to say: "Infiltrators arrow is not instant either. Theyre both about a second, but swoop carries you a tiny bit further." again, you're not noticing something important for this comparison. The SB#5 does have an animation time but it DOES NOT stop your WASD movement walking speed while casting it. So the Thief is still moving with WASD while the animation begins, an when it ends it instantly moves him with no interruption to the WASD movement. Swoop and Gazelle F2 or Bull's Charge or Rush, REPLACE all WASD movement and actually cause small pauses to it before and after the animations. A Swoop may be 1000 range but it is on a 10s CD that is effectively an 11s CD because the recharge doesn't begin until the 1s animation ends. The Sb#5 on the other hand, does not interrupt the initiative regen whatsoever and maintains a sound 2x 900 range uses per 12s = 1800 range per 12s, all the while not interrupting the WASD movement of the Thief at all, nor does Shadow Step or Steal.

    Why does it stopping WASD movement matter, exactly? After you use Shortbow 5, no matter how or where you move, your location is locked in. You will always travel 900 units from your original point. Thats 900 units per second. Meanwhile Rush and swoop and whatever all finish their full animation also in a second, and you can move freely instantly. Thats 1200 units per second. Thats more distance covered in the same time. That is all that matters. I get what youre trying to do, muddle the waters to hide important aspects that dismantle your argument, but it doesnt work.

    1. And then this here is just entirely and completely incorrect in every possible way. You said that: "You get both Bird Swoop and Gazelle Charge, actually. You cant swap pets in-combat, but were not looking at in-combat. So thats 1200 on 12 seconds and Swoops 1200 on 18 seconds. Theyre also both about a second." OK so first, we are looking at in-combat because that's what happens in a pvp setting. When you're talking about things chasing each other and running from each other, that's what's happening, people in combat. When a Soulbeast is in combat it can't swap pets. Even if we were talking about out of combat, you are seriously not understanding some things about Ranger here. Again, Soulbeast does not use Swiftness skills. It relies on Beastmastery trait merge for a flat 30% movement speed WHILE MERGED. When you try to swap pets, they go on a 9s CD and during that 9s you do not benefit the 30% movement. Even if you were using Swiftness from the bird when it was unmerged, it only lasts 10s and it takes time to cast. Then when you swap to the Gazelle the pet swap goes on 9s CD and merge will be on a 10s CD after you left bird. So now you swap to Gazelle and you have to stand there and wait for the merge CD to come off timer before you can even get into the Gazelle to use the F2. So theoretically I see what you're trying to argue but it doesn't pan out in the way that you were thinking because of merge timer. In other words, without writing a thesis on this one aspect, you'll make better distance by camping beast mode in Gazelle for the 30% movement baseline and F2 Charge on a 13s cycle. Trying to swap pets and adding in that 9 to 10s buffer to wait to remerge will kill your skill usage cycling & distance.

    Lots to unpack here. Let me just copy the important parts and address them one by one.

    OK so first, we are looking at in-combat because that's what happens in a pvp setting

    No we arent. Were talking about a horizontal race. You dont have a race in-combat. And the original context was about cross-map movement. You know, going to decap and +1? You also do that out of combat. So already youre very wrong.

    Again, Soulbeast does not use Swiftness skills

    Oh, do they now?. Yeah thats a load of kitten. And you use it while merged. And then there are stances or warhorn or whatever.

    1. Then you say: "You get swiftness from owl + your choice between stances, warhorn, or whatever. You hit the max cap all the same." OK first of all, whatever you're referencing is not going to be any faster than any other Soulbeast build aside from some +3% gain in movement from having Swiftness over merge trait. Upon that, using warhorn and stances and owl on a Soulbeast is not a practical build to be using in pvp. You need to be using Longbow and Greatsword, and Smokescale, because when you merge and go into combat you cannot swap pets and you need the Smokescale the most for obvious reasons. So whatever you're referencing here is about as far away as it could get from a realistic build comparison.

    Its not much of a boost, but its a boost. And again, talking out of combat, so you hit the movement speed cap. And sure its not a practical build because you dont care for map movement since you need vertical movement. But in WvW, its actually a build. A version of boonbeast specifically.

    1. Then you start talking about 1hand Sword on a Ranger. Just no. You suggest the idea that someone is going to run Greatsword for Swoop with a 1hand Sword with a Warhorn apparnetly for competitive purposes? Even if they did and even if they were out of combat, that 1hand Sword jump has this weird hampering effect with its animation that hinders the Ranger just enough to where it barely gains any distance at all compared to what the tooltip says. If you're talking a foot race like this, the 600 range on Sword#2 is more like 300 range in terms of distance gained because of the weird animation at the beginning and the pause at the end before the Ranger is allowed to move with WASD afterwards. And upon that man, that build would be terrible in combat regardless of if it was DPS or Bunker, doesn't matter. Those weapon sets would be hot garbage together. The days of old Boonbeast setups have been looooooong gone for awhile now man. Sword/Warhorn/Greatsword would get you jacked up in a hurry if you tried to run it in pvp or wvw.

    That "weird animation" is called a cast time. Its still faster. And sure, as I said, its redundant anyway. Youre ahead. And sure it wouldnt be good for 1v1s or teamfights. But neither is thief, is it? The point is to have a hypothetical thief analogue that can move across the map if they were horizontal.

    1. And then War I'm not going to discuss because it's slower than Ranger and Ranger is slower than Thief, and the same mistakes were made while viewing the breakdown, concerning not taking into account the hampering of movement from animations. A good example on War is GS#3 Whirlwind. That skill has some serious animation hampering. It doesn't boost you ahead nearly as much as the tooltip would make you think. Using a WW alongside of a guy who was just running with Swiftness 33%, would only put you ahead maybe 60-80 range from him, due to how the animation actually works.

    Its slower than ranger, yes. Its faster than thief. I did not make any mistakes. I counted the animation and stated it. It boosts you by exactly as much as I have said.

    At any rate man, the purpose of my comparisons were to use realistic build structures for pvp while being in combat. The purpose was not to point out theoretical weird run builds designed for GW1 Droknar's Forge run. I could do the same thing for Thief, point out of a bunch theoretical options that could improve its movement speed and init gain, ect ect, but that's unrealistic.

    You couldnt. Youre pretty much hitting the cap. Roll for initiative, perhaps, but that barely boosts you, and then youre tapped out. The purpose was to show that in horizontal movement thief is faster than ranger and warrior, and you failed to show that at all, because its not true.

    But just to humour you, what if it was in-combat? Well lets start with warrior. Its easier. 12600 over 16.45 remains the same, its not affected by in combat vs out of combat. So, 23.5 seconds of swiftness movement. Thats 280 units per second. So 23.5*280= 6580. For a total of 19180 units in 40 seconds. To compare, thief has the 7200 over 8. So, 32 seconds of movement. Lets be very generous and assume thief has 50% extra movement speed during the entire 32 seconds (needless to say, he wont). Thats 32*315= 10080. For a total of 17280. Thats almost 2k less. And that was with me being very generous. If we instead assume realistically the thief only has, lets say, 12 seconds of 50% movement, then its only 16580. Almost 3k less. Yeah, pretty rough for the thief, innit?

    You maths are kinda off by a bit
    a) For example you didn't calculate that Thief can use Dash (450 yards yard range) x6times in those 40 sec
    (2 in start + once every 10 sec) .

    So I didnt. Although its 5 times, not 6. 3 at the start, then one every 10 seconds, but you dont start with dash. Thats 750 units. Less far behind, but still behind.

    b) The 50% speed bonus on stealth is translated into 36-37% movement speed in combat

    Well, I did say "its about 10 units or so". 9 to be precise. You throw in about, idk, 110 units. Its still behind.

    c) Combining those 2 , you will get out of combat faster without being him and your 50% out of combat speed in stealth will be fully enabled

    Nah, if you combine those 2 thief still falls behind by a lot.

    and d) if you stealth , he cannot outrun you , because he cannot find you :)

    Thats not how outrunning is defined.

    Yeah it seems both of us haven't played much GW2 :)
    Daredevil has 3 dodges from the start + once per 10 sec . So in total is 7 in 40 sec

    Wait did I mess up my math? Oh its 6. Not 7. You dont start with dash. You start with shortbow 5, since initiative is more important to recharge.

    In an combat race , you start with the more easy available spell , in our case is Dash . Otherwise the delay from switching weapon + use the Arrow can be fatal . You can equip it while on the Dash animation

    Nope, see above.

    The 50% speed bonus on stealth is translated into 36-37% movement speed in combat
    Druids and Warriors with swiftness its 33%

    Percentage is meaningless, you want the real unit. That is a difference of 9 units per second. So after 40 seconds of running, youd barely be at 360. Its not much.

    I pretty sure the Thiefs will get out of combat faster and his 50% speed will be enabled :)

    He wont actually. And this is not what the race is about. And the 50% speed is meaningless, as seen above.

    a) Nope see above , you start with the Dash , you will waste 0,5 sec by equipping the shortbow and till the arrow its traveled .
    Its more scientific acceptable to do that while you are on the Dash animation
    edit: With my method (7 dashes) , i can use 2 Dash to give my resources time to recuperate + travel 900 more yards

    You dont. You dont equip shortbow, and you start with shortbow because initiative is more important of a resource than endurance. Its 1.5 units per second when youre regening endurance, vs 150 per second with shortbow 5. PRetty big.

    b)Its not 9 units .
    Its 3% difference movement increased x 40 sec = the number will be inflating even after that = they will never catch you

    Its literally 9 units per second. Its 391 units per second vs 400 units per second. Its so little its irrelevant.

    c) I pretty sure the Thiefs will get out of combat faster and his 50% speed will be enabled will travel even more distance

    Again, we start out of combat. And again, the speed makes close to no difference.

    a)No sorry , but with your method you will be off by 900 yards less from your goal .
    Try to imagine the first dodge , as a free 450 yard Leap > arrow > dodge .
    With your method and 5 dodges , you will be 900 yard less and your resources will not have time to be restored

    I hate having to repeat myself. The first dodge gives you about 150 units compared to just walking. The first infiltrators arrow gives you 500 units compared to just walking. And initiative is worth more than endurance. So is it now clear why you do not start with a dash? Good.

    b) If we start out of combat , then the Warrior + Druid will be running by 33% vs 50% of you .
    It will be 17% difference in speed/distance x40 sec = 2040 yards and will be increasing by the second

    Out of combat movement speed has a cap. At 400. With swiftness you reach 391 movement speed. So 50% only gains 9 units per seconds. So no, at most its 360 units if you ran 40 seconds with 50% vs someone with 33%. Not 2040 or anywhere close to it.

    Try to think it more rational , you will outrun them both:)
    Or try to stealth and hide them :)

    The one who needs to "think more rational" is the one who doesnt understand basic concepts. Do not make me repeat myself again.

    a)Again you don't really understand .
    Dodge >Arrow > 2x FREE DODGES > arrow > dodges
    With your calculation you will not gain 900 yard extra speed ...

    No I do understand. I understand you do not understand how this works. Let me explain. If you do the order "dodge > Arrow" you lose a total of 350 units at the start, and then another 150 for the second you wasted. On the other hand, if you do "Arrow > dodge", you gain 350 units and gain another 150 by not wasting a second. The latter moves you more.

    b) In combat has a cap ...
    Out of combat has not ...

    Yes it does. Do not argue without understanding the basics.

    a)Again read the basic too ...
    Swiftness doesn't put near the 400 cap
    Dont try to say something that you don't really understand

    You really are making me repeat myself? Ugh. So, lets do the math. Swiftness is 33% speedboost. You start with 294 base movement speed out of combat. 294*1.33= 391. The cap is 400. So you are literally just 9 units below cap. Thats 9 units per second. Got it now?

    b) its free 2x dodges
    Its free 900 yards
    Dodge >Arrow > 2x FREE DODGES > arrow > dodges

    No its not? You dont get anything. You just start regenerating endurance 1 second faster. Like, what if I instead use arrow, then dodge thrice, then arrow again? I gain distance. Simple, isnt it?

    With you method , you will run out resources faster...

    ... no? You start regenerating resources faster with my method.

    a) Again why do you make me repeat myself...
    In the PvP area the movements speed is extremly Lowered by default .
    Its not near the 294 ...
    Its like in 194-205

    .... no? Its not? What the bloody hell are you talking about. Movement speed and its cap doesnt change other than in-combat vs out of combat. If it did ,the wiki would say it. Are you just a bad troll?

    b) You have 2x dodges that allows you to recuperate the Arrow and not run out of resources after 15 sec .
    Its called Resources management !

    No, its called "Not understanding how resources work". You regenerate the arrow as soon as you use it. By dashing first you lose 1 second of initiative regeneration and gain nothing. You lose distance traveled. Its wrong. Do you finally get it?

    a) PvE out of combat speed is different from the PvP ones .
    Just go in the PvE and and use any speed boost , you will know the difference ....

    NO IT IS NOT. If that were the case the wiki article would mention it. It doesnt. Because that isnt the case. And I did. What I found was "speed was the exact same". Youre really just that dense, arent you?

    b) With you method you will run out of resources in less than a min (3 Arrows-5 dodges)
    By my calculations you will waste 2xFREE DODGES , GAIN 900 YARD DISTANCE and then have your remaining 5x dodges + 3 arrows to manage as you wish

    Now youre just saying words without meaning. No, with my method I will not run out of resources any faster than with your method. I will however regain resources faster than with your method. I do not waste "anything". I gain 150 units distance compared to your method. Are you just a new player who doesnt know how GW2 works yet?

    I understand that you are new to the game . But ask me next time . I played from Beta till the release of HoT

    Yeah right. The guy who doesnt understand resources or even how movement speed works totally "played since the beta". Look either youre new, or youre a troll. Either way, youre wrong, I have shown youre wrong, and youre getting on my nerves. So accept that youre wrong, or just shut up.

    You simply lack some informations that it kinda ''stealthy'' .
    Its ok because you are kinda new .
    The Warclaw moves at 394 u/s in WvWvW (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mount/Mount_speed_research)
    And players with Swiftness + no other mobility skills get outpaced by Warclaws .

    Oh wow, you really just dont know anything. Here is the actual warclaws speed. Its not 394. Its 453. And thats without using the mobility skill. No duh players with swiftness get outpaced, Warclaw is a lot faster.

    204 u/s x33% swiftness = 271 u/s for a player in the PvP areas

    This is just numbers you pulled out of your kitten with no basis in anything.

    394-271 = 122 u/s (the mount gains 120 yards each second , outpacing the player )

    453 vs 394. Again, wrong, and completely pulled out of your kitten. The funny thing is, you literally had a piece of evidence in your hands where you could see that youre wrong. Remember this? Its the mount speed research tab you poorly linked. Lets look at this little line: "On foot: WvW; 100% Swiftness Speed: 392.". Now, PvE: "Land; 100% Swiftness Speed: 392". Whats this? Its literally the same? Who would ever have guessed.

    I am sorry , but you are wrong ...

    I am not, but you clearly are. And youre not sorry, youre a troll.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Warclaw
    Its movement speed in PvE is about 539 u/s
    Its base Movement Speed in WvW is about 453 u/s

    The warclaw is not a player. It doesnt have a movement speed cap in the first place. And its also got a different movement speed because the PvE version uses what used to be the warclaws movement speed in your own territory in WvW. That got removed, but PvE kept it.

    You see
    I got it right that PvP + PvE speed have different values :)

    No you are wrong. You said players have different values. I have shown that they do not. Warclaw has nothing to do with any of this. But its painfully clear now that youre just a bad troll.

    You youngster , dont you find it strange that :
    if Warclaw has 453 u/s and the player 394 u/s , that means that after 4 secthe Warclaw will be 360 yards ahead of the player ?
    Less that a Captured point from PvP (480) ?

    No I dont it find strange. Because thats exactly the case? Of course, that assumes the warclaw isnt using its mobility button. And that the player has swiftness.

    In reality , the player doesn't move at 394 , but less .
    That why after 4 sec , the munt is wayyyyyy ahead of you without dodging

    No, in reality the player with swiftness moves at 394. The wiki even says as much. Stop trolling.

    The warclaw like player , behave differently in PvE
    I am sorry , for don't knowing that :)

    The player does not move any different across gamemodes, as the wiki explicitely says. Stop trolling.

    Some wiki have not been updated
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mount/Mount_speed_research

    You mean, the page where it says pretty clearly "WvW player speed is 100% COMPLETELY IDENTICAL to PvE player speed"?

    I respect that you don't like to admin admit that you are mistaken .
    Otherwise even a child could see that , in 4 sec Warclaw should not travel only 360 yards ahead of the player , but EVEN MORE

    The only one refusing to admit their mistake is you. And no, if the player has swiftness and the warclaw doesnt use its dodge ability, thats exactly how much (or little) the warclaw gets ahead.

    edit: pro tip : try to read the wiki .
    ''Its movement speed in PvE is about 539 u/s, which is a 83% increase over standard movement out of combat or a 37% increase over out of combat movement speed with Swiftness''

    Which pretty clearly says "Player speed doesnt change in WvW". Else it wouldnt compare to PvE speeds, would it?

    a) Yeah i am sorry , i forgot you tunnel vision in order to try to implore you re right
    Check the speed , it says 394 u/s

    It doesnt.

    b) the distance difference in 4 sec , is not 360 yards , but doubled or 2,5

    Its not.

    c) try to walk with Swiftness in PvE and then try WvWvW

    Did that. 0 difference. Are you done trolling yet?

  • you own Trevor Boyer.6524 ,300 gold

    1 month

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 13, 2020

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @ArthurDent.9538 said:
    The obvious solution to this is get Trevor on thief and unowen on ranger/warrior in the same foefire custom arena together and have them foot race from one Lord room to the other (no porting over the cliffs in the middle). As for me I'll gladly bet 100g on thief winning, any takers?

    I am willing to stream it as well. I'll play the Thief. And yes, I want to put gold down on this.

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @ArthurDent.9538 said:
    The obvious solution to this is get Trevor on thief and unowen on ranger/warrior in the same foefire custom arena together and have them foot race from one Lord room to the other (no porting over the cliffs in the middle). As for me I'll gladly bet 100g on thief winning, any takers?

    Which part of "perfectly horizontal" are you not quite getting? The point was that specifically sPvPs non-horizontal map design is why thieves mobility beats ranger and warrior, while WvWs perfectly flat planes make warrior and ranger win.

    We can do it in pvp, in wvw, in a pve dungeon, in a plane, on a train, it won't matter. The Thief will always win.

    Find a friend on soulbeast and warrior and do it then. And do it properly, like I did a while back. Odds are youll get the same result, which is warrior and ranger winning. Do watch out if youre trying to do it around castle in EBG though, sometimes you get the no valid path thing there, which might ruin the race. But no, thief will never win on a perfectly horizontal plane. Thats what the math shows, and thats what a couple tests I did showed as well.

    No, I need you to help me do this race so it gets done properly. I want to play the Thief and you be on the Soulbeast.

    What if I say no? Ive seen how this goes before, even when they get proven wrong, people dont admit it.

    Funny you mention that.

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @Trevor Boyer.6524
    I would bet gold on that too, if it comes to that I bet 300g on tif, if there are any takers.
    If mathematician doesnt kitten out, makes sure to record so we all can have a good laugh, dont be selfish plx.

    Time to ante up boys.

    @FrownyClown.8402 said:
    Dont make him repeat himself pls

    Too late.

    And on that day, a fine test sample was ran for everyone's enjoyment:

    Non-horizontal map. Did not use swiftness on Soulbeast. Did not maximise speed on Soulbeast. Multiple mistakes on warrior and soulbeast. Poorly optimised pathing on warrior and soulbeast. Gee wiz, I wonder why you got that result with how shoddy your methodology was. Now try it again in WvW, on a perfectly flat stretch of land, in a straight line, without making mistakes.

    Edit: oh and nice blatant lie at the end. Daredevil would slow down quite a bit as well, warrior would slow down a lot less.

  • Naqam a.6521Naqam a.6521 Member ✭✭
    edited September 13, 2020

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @ArthurDent.9538 said:
    The obvious solution to this is get Trevor on thief and unowen on ranger/warrior in the same foefire custom arena together and have them foot race from one Lord room to the other (no porting over the cliffs in the middle). As for me I'll gladly bet 100g on thief winning, any takers?

    I am willing to stream it as well. I'll play the Thief. And yes, I want to put gold down on this.

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @ArthurDent.9538 said:
    The obvious solution to this is get Trevor on thief and unowen on ranger/warrior in the same foefire custom arena together and have them foot race from one Lord room to the other (no porting over the cliffs in the middle). As for me I'll gladly bet 100g on thief winning, any takers?

    Which part of "perfectly horizontal" are you not quite getting? The point was that specifically sPvPs non-horizontal map design is why thieves mobility beats ranger and warrior, while WvWs perfectly flat planes make warrior and ranger win.

    We can do it in pvp, in wvw, in a pve dungeon, in a plane, on a train, it won't matter. The Thief will always win.

    Find a friend on soulbeast and warrior and do it then. And do it properly, like I did a while back. Odds are youll get the same result, which is warrior and ranger winning. Do watch out if youre trying to do it around castle in EBG though, sometimes you get the no valid path thing there, which might ruin the race. But no, thief will never win on a perfectly horizontal plane. Thats what the math shows, and thats what a couple tests I did showed as well.

    No, I need you to help me do this race so it gets done properly. I want to play the Thief and you be on the Soulbeast.

    What if I say no? Ive seen how this goes before, even when they get proven wrong, people dont admit it.

    Funny you mention that.

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @Trevor Boyer.6524
    I would bet gold on that too, if it comes to that I bet 300g on tif, if there are any takers.
    If mathematician doesnt kitten out, makes sure to record so we all can have a good laugh, dont be selfish plx.

    Time to ante up boys.

    @FrownyClown.8402 said:
    Dont make him repeat himself pls

    Too late.

    And on that day, a fine test sample was ran for everyone's enjoyment:

    Non-horizontal map. Did not use swiftness on Soulbeast. Did not maximise speed on Soulbeast. Multiple mistakes on warrior and soulbeast. Poorly optimised pathing on warrior and soulbeast. Gee wiz, I wonder why you got that result with how shoddy your methodology was. Now try it again in WvW, on a perfectly flat stretch of land, in a straight line, without making mistakes.

    Go on , Play yourself a Ranger or warrior and prove him wrong !

    Duel !
    Race!
    Duel !
    Race!

    1 month

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 13, 2020

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @ArthurDent.9538 said:
    The obvious solution to this is get Trevor on thief and unowen on ranger/warrior in the same foefire custom arena together and have them foot race from one Lord room to the other (no porting over the cliffs in the middle). As for me I'll gladly bet 100g on thief winning, any takers?

    I am willing to stream it as well. I'll play the Thief. And yes, I want to put gold down on this.

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @ArthurDent.9538 said:
    The obvious solution to this is get Trevor on thief and unowen on ranger/warrior in the same foefire custom arena together and have them foot race from one Lord room to the other (no porting over the cliffs in the middle). As for me I'll gladly bet 100g on thief winning, any takers?

    Which part of "perfectly horizontal" are you not quite getting? The point was that specifically sPvPs non-horizontal map design is why thieves mobility beats ranger and warrior, while WvWs perfectly flat planes make warrior and ranger win.

    We can do it in pvp, in wvw, in a pve dungeon, in a plane, on a train, it won't matter. The Thief will always win.

    Find a friend on soulbeast and warrior and do it then. And do it properly, like I did a while back. Odds are youll get the same result, which is warrior and ranger winning. Do watch out if youre trying to do it around castle in EBG though, sometimes you get the no valid path thing there, which might ruin the race. But no, thief will never win on a perfectly horizontal plane. Thats what the math shows, and thats what a couple tests I did showed as well.

    No, I need you to help me do this race so it gets done properly. I want to play the Thief and you be on the Soulbeast.

    What if I say no? Ive seen how this goes before, even when they get proven wrong, people dont admit it.

    Funny you mention that.

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @Trevor Boyer.6524
    I would bet gold on that too, if it comes to that I bet 300g on tif, if there are any takers.
    If mathematician doesnt kitten out, makes sure to record so we all can have a good laugh, dont be selfish plx.

    Time to ante up boys.

    @FrownyClown.8402 said:
    Dont make him repeat himself pls

    Too late.

    And on that day, a fine test sample was ran for everyone's enjoyment:

    Non-horizontal map. Did not use swiftness on Soulbeast. Did not maximise speed on Soulbeast. Multiple mistakes on warrior and soulbeast. Poorly optimised pathing on warrior and soulbeast. Gee wiz, I wonder why you got that result with how shoddy your methodology was. Now try it again in WvW, on a perfectly flat stretch of land, in a straight line, without making mistakes.

    Go on , Play yourself a Ranger or warrior and prove him wrong !

    Duel !
    Duel!
    Duel !

    That's what I was thinking. I'd truly enjoy it if this guy would get in-game on his Ranger to prove me wrong.

    We can record that too ^^

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @ArthurDent.9538 said:
    The obvious solution to this is get Trevor on thief and unowen on ranger/warrior in the same foefire custom arena together and have them foot race from one Lord room to the other (no porting over the cliffs in the middle). As for me I'll gladly bet 100g on thief winning, any takers?

    I am willing to stream it as well. I'll play the Thief. And yes, I want to put gold down on this.

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @ArthurDent.9538 said:
    The obvious solution to this is get Trevor on thief and unowen on ranger/warrior in the same foefire custom arena together and have them foot race from one Lord room to the other (no porting over the cliffs in the middle). As for me I'll gladly bet 100g on thief winning, any takers?

    Which part of "perfectly horizontal" are you not quite getting? The point was that specifically sPvPs non-horizontal map design is why thieves mobility beats ranger and warrior, while WvWs perfectly flat planes make warrior and ranger win.

    We can do it in pvp, in wvw, in a pve dungeon, in a plane, on a train, it won't matter. The Thief will always win.

    Find a friend on soulbeast and warrior and do it then. And do it properly, like I did a while back. Odds are youll get the same result, which is warrior and ranger winning. Do watch out if youre trying to do it around castle in EBG though, sometimes you get the no valid path thing there, which might ruin the race. But no, thief will never win on a perfectly horizontal plane. Thats what the math shows, and thats what a couple tests I did showed as well.

    No, I need you to help me do this race so it gets done properly. I want to play the Thief and you be on the Soulbeast.

    What if I say no? Ive seen how this goes before, even when they get proven wrong, people dont admit it.

    Funny you mention that.

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @Trevor Boyer.6524
    I would bet gold on that too, if it comes to that I bet 300g on tif, if there are any takers.
    If mathematician doesnt kitten out, makes sure to record so we all can have a good laugh, dont be selfish plx.

    Time to ante up boys.

    @FrownyClown.8402 said:
    Dont make him repeat himself pls

    Too late.

    And on that day, a fine test sample was ran for everyone's enjoyment:

    Non-horizontal map. Did not use swiftness on Soulbeast. Did not maximise speed on Soulbeast. Multiple mistakes on warrior and soulbeast. Poorly optimised pathing on warrior and soulbeast. Gee wiz, I wonder why you got that result with how shoddy your methodology was. Now try it again in WvW, on a perfectly flat stretch of land, in a straight line, without making mistakes.

    Go on , Play yourself a Ranger or warrior and prove him wrong !

    Duel !
    Duel!
    Duel !

    That's what I was thinking. I'd truly enjoy it if this guy would get in-game on his Ranger to prove me wrong.

    We can record that too ^^

    No you wouldnt. Once the methodology is proper, youd start smug. Then the race happens, you quickly realise "wait kitten Im going to lose", and once you do, you will act like nothing ever happened and continue to spout the same nonsense. Ive had that happen twice before. Im not about to waste time on that rubbish. So go on. Do it yourself with the proper methodology, and show us the result. Or more accurately, do that, and never show it because it doesnt show what you want it to show.

  • @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @ArthurDent.9538 said:
    The obvious solution to this is get Trevor on thief and unowen on ranger/warrior in the same foefire custom arena together and have them foot race from one Lord room to the other (no porting over the cliffs in the middle). As for me I'll gladly bet 100g on thief winning, any takers?

    I am willing to stream it as well. I'll play the Thief. And yes, I want to put gold down on this.

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @ArthurDent.9538 said:
    The obvious solution to this is get Trevor on thief and unowen on ranger/warrior in the same foefire custom arena together and have them foot race from one Lord room to the other (no porting over the cliffs in the middle). As for me I'll gladly bet 100g on thief winning, any takers?

    Which part of "perfectly horizontal" are you not quite getting? The point was that specifically sPvPs non-horizontal map design is why thieves mobility beats ranger and warrior, while WvWs perfectly flat planes make warrior and ranger win.

    We can do it in pvp, in wvw, in a pve dungeon, in a plane, on a train, it won't matter. The Thief will always win.

    Find a friend on soulbeast and warrior and do it then. And do it properly, like I did a while back. Odds are youll get the same result, which is warrior and ranger winning. Do watch out if youre trying to do it around castle in EBG though, sometimes you get the no valid path thing there, which might ruin the race. But no, thief will never win on a perfectly horizontal plane. Thats what the math shows, and thats what a couple tests I did showed as well.

    No, I need you to help me do this race so it gets done properly. I want to play the Thief and you be on the Soulbeast.

    What if I say no? Ive seen how this goes before, even when they get proven wrong, people dont admit it.

    Funny you mention that.

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @Trevor Boyer.6524
    I would bet gold on that too, if it comes to that I bet 300g on tif, if there are any takers.
    If mathematician doesnt kitten out, makes sure to record so we all can have a good laugh, dont be selfish plx.

    Time to ante up boys.

    @FrownyClown.8402 said:
    Dont make him repeat himself pls

    Too late.

    And on that day, a fine test sample was ran for everyone's enjoyment:

    This seems 100% accurate. Trevor even took the time to not use thief teleports in vertical areas he could so thief would possibly be faster meanwhile the only thing different he could do on ranger is play sword mainhand, which is only playable for core or owl which might make him a few secs faster cuz of swiftness but owl is also a weak option, also warrior he could have used stomp but that would make like a 5 sec difference at most. Yeah the pathing for ranger was mediocre at one point but Trevor also pointed that out before in his calculations plus no optimal pathing would make up that 20 secs which btw thief could have even more if they had a mainhand sword and/or infiltration signet.

  • ArthurDent.9538ArthurDent.9538 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @RedAvenged.5217 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @ArthurDent.9538 said:
    The obvious solution to this is get Trevor on thief and unowen on ranger/warrior in the same foefire custom arena together and have them foot race from one Lord room to the other (no porting over the cliffs in the middle). As for me I'll gladly bet 100g on thief winning, any takers?

    I am willing to stream it as well. I'll play the Thief. And yes, I want to put gold down on this.

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @ArthurDent.9538 said:
    The obvious solution to this is get Trevor on thief and unowen on ranger/warrior in the same foefire custom arena together and have them foot race from one Lord room to the other (no porting over the cliffs in the middle). As for me I'll gladly bet 100g on thief winning, any takers?

    Which part of "perfectly horizontal" are you not quite getting? The point was that specifically sPvPs non-horizontal map design is why thieves mobility beats ranger and warrior, while WvWs perfectly flat planes make warrior and ranger win.

    We can do it in pvp, in wvw, in a pve dungeon, in a plane, on a train, it won't matter. The Thief will always win.

    Find a friend on soulbeast and warrior and do it then. And do it properly, like I did a while back. Odds are youll get the same result, which is warrior and ranger winning. Do watch out if youre trying to do it around castle in EBG though, sometimes you get the no valid path thing there, which might ruin the race. But no, thief will never win on a perfectly horizontal plane. Thats what the math shows, and thats what a couple tests I did showed as well.

    No, I need you to help me do this race so it gets done properly. I want to play the Thief and you be on the Soulbeast.

    What if I say no? Ive seen how this goes before, even when they get proven wrong, people dont admit it.

    Funny you mention that.

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @Trevor Boyer.6524
    I would bet gold on that too, if it comes to that I bet 300g on tif, if there are any takers.
    If mathematician doesnt kitten out, makes sure to record so we all can have a good laugh, dont be selfish plx.

    Time to ante up boys.

    @FrownyClown.8402 said:
    Dont make him repeat himself pls

    Too late.

    And on that day, a fine test sample was ran for everyone's enjoyment:

    This seems 100% accurate. Trevor even took the time to not use thief teleports in vertical areas he could so thief would possibly be faster meanwhile the only thing different he could do on ranger is play sword mainhand, which is only playable for core or owl which might make him a few secs faster cuz of swiftness but owl is also a weak option, also warrior he could have used stomp but that would make like a 5 sec difference at most. Yeah the pathing for ranger was mediocre at one point but Trevor also pointed that out before in his calculations plus no optimal pathing would make up that 20 secs which btw thief could have even more if they had a mainhand sword and/or infiltration signet.

    Warrior would be a bit faster with sword/wh and ranger would obviously be faster with mh sword and clean about-face lightning reflexes. With that being said, thief could also be faster with spamming agility signet and channeled vigor for extra dash dodges (50% movement speed in stealth is negligible in ooc test) as well as running infiltrator sig or about-face roll for initiative for more sb 5's, not to mention potential for shadow portal in a there and back test as opposed to a one way test.

  • @ArthurDent.9538 said:

    @RedAvenged.5217 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @ArthurDent.9538 said:
    The obvious solution to this is get Trevor on thief and unowen on ranger/warrior in the same foefire custom arena together and have them foot race from one Lord room to the other (no porting over the cliffs in the middle). As for me I'll gladly bet 100g on thief winning, any takers?

    I am willing to stream it as well. I'll play the Thief. And yes, I want to put gold down on this.

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @ArthurDent.9538 said:
    The obvious solution to this is get Trevor on thief and unowen on ranger/warrior in the same foefire custom arena together and have them foot race from one Lord room to the other (no porting over the cliffs in the middle). As for me I'll gladly bet 100g on thief winning, any takers?

    Which part of "perfectly horizontal" are you not quite getting? The point was that specifically sPvPs non-horizontal map design is why thieves mobility beats ranger and warrior, while WvWs perfectly flat planes make warrior and ranger win.

    We can do it in pvp, in wvw, in a pve dungeon, in a plane, on a train, it won't matter. The Thief will always win.

    Find a friend on soulbeast and warrior and do it then. And do it properly, like I did a while back. Odds are youll get the same result, which is warrior and ranger winning. Do watch out if youre trying to do it around castle in EBG though, sometimes you get the no valid path thing there, which might ruin the race. But no, thief will never win on a perfectly horizontal plane. Thats what the math shows, and thats what a couple tests I did showed as well.

    No, I need you to help me do this race so it gets done properly. I want to play the Thief and you be on the Soulbeast.

    What if I say no? Ive seen how this goes before, even when they get proven wrong, people dont admit it.

    Funny you mention that.

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @Trevor Boyer.6524
    I would bet gold on that too, if it comes to that I bet 300g on tif, if there are any takers.
    If mathematician doesnt kitten out, makes sure to record so we all can have a good laugh, dont be selfish plx.

    Time to ante up boys.

    @FrownyClown.8402 said:
    Dont make him repeat himself pls

    Too late.

    And on that day, a fine test sample was ran for everyone's enjoyment:

    This seems 100% accurate. Trevor even took the time to not use thief teleports in vertical areas he could so thief would possibly be faster meanwhile the only thing different he could do on ranger is play sword mainhand, which is only playable for core or owl which might make him a few secs faster cuz of swiftness but owl is also a weak option, also warrior he could have used stomp but that would make like a 5 sec difference at most. Yeah the pathing for ranger was mediocre at one point but Trevor also pointed that out before in his calculations plus no optimal pathing would make up that 20 secs which btw thief could have even more if they had a mainhand sword and/or infiltration signet.

    Warrior would be a bit faster with sword/wh and ranger would obviously be faster with mh sword and clean about-face lightning reflexes. With that being said, thief could also be faster with spamming agility signet and channeled vigor for extra dash dodges (50% movement speed in stealth is negligible in ooc test) as well as running infiltrator sig or about-face roll for initiative for more sb 5's, not to mention potential for shadow portal in a there and back test as opposed to a one way test.

    O yeah shadow portal would be significantly cancer here

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @ArthurDent.9538 said:
    The obvious solution to this is get Trevor on thief and unowen on ranger/warrior in the same foefire custom arena together and have them foot race from one Lord room to the other (no porting over the cliffs in the middle). As for me I'll gladly bet 100g on thief winning, any takers?

    I am willing to stream it as well. I'll play the Thief. And yes, I want to put gold down on this.

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @ArthurDent.9538 said:
    The obvious solution to this is get Trevor on thief and unowen on ranger/warrior in the same foefire custom arena together and have them foot race from one Lord room to the other (no porting over the cliffs in the middle). As for me I'll gladly bet 100g on thief winning, any takers?

    Which part of "perfectly horizontal" are you not quite getting? The point was that specifically sPvPs non-horizontal map design is why thieves mobility beats ranger and warrior, while WvWs perfectly flat planes make warrior and ranger win.

    We can do it in pvp, in wvw, in a pve dungeon, in a plane, on a train, it won't matter. The Thief will always win.

    Find a friend on soulbeast and warrior and do it then. And do it properly, like I did a while back. Odds are youll get the same result, which is warrior and ranger winning. Do watch out if youre trying to do it around castle in EBG though, sometimes you get the no valid path thing there, which might ruin the race. But no, thief will never win on a perfectly horizontal plane. Thats what the math shows, and thats what a couple tests I did showed as well.

    No, I need you to help me do this race so it gets done properly. I want to play the Thief and you be on the Soulbeast.

    What if I say no? Ive seen how this goes before, even when they get proven wrong, people dont admit it.

    Funny you mention that.

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @Trevor Boyer.6524
    I would bet gold on that too, if it comes to that I bet 300g on tif, if there are any takers.
    If mathematician doesnt kitten out, makes sure to record so we all can have a good laugh, dont be selfish plx.

    Time to ante up boys.

    @FrownyClown.8402 said:
    Dont make him repeat himself pls

    Too late.

    And on that day, a fine test sample was ran for everyone's enjoyment:

    Non-horizontal map. Did not use swiftness on Soulbeast. Did not maximise speed on Soulbeast. Multiple mistakes on warrior and soulbeast. Poorly optimised pathing on warrior and soulbeast. Gee wiz, I wonder why you got that result with how shoddy your methodology was. Now try it again in WvW, on a perfectly flat stretch of land, in a straight line, without making mistakes.

    Go on , Play yourself a Ranger or warrior and prove him wrong !

    Duel !
    Duel!
    Duel !

    That's what I was thinking. I'd truly enjoy it if this guy would get in-game on his Ranger to prove me wrong.

    We can record that too ^^

    No you wouldnt. Once the methodology is proper, youd start smug. Then the race happens, you quickly realise "wait kitten Im going to lose", and once you do, you will act like nothing ever happened and continue to spout the same nonsense. Ive had that happen twice before. Im not about to waste time on that rubbish. So go on. Do it yourself with the proper methodology, and show us the result. Or more accurately, do that, and never show it because it doesnt show what you want it to show.

    You would be wrong. Was this supposed to be a riddle? Again, as I just explained to you, your methodology was unbelievably shoddy. So shoddy that both ranger and warrior lost a lot of time to it. And yet the advantage wasnt particularly major. What do you think would happen if you fixed the methodology and let Warrior and Ranger gain the lost time, hm?

    Oh and while I cant fix your choice of a non-horizontal map, I can fix the rest. So, with a not very well optimised attempt, I got 1:25 on warrior. And I think there is room to shave off another 5 seconds. And that despite the fact that since I joined an empty room, I had to take a detour since I couldnt destroy one set of gates. Now imagine if the vertical advantage wasnt there.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 14, 2020

    @RedAvenged.5217 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @ArthurDent.9538 said:
    The obvious solution to this is get Trevor on thief and unowen on ranger/warrior in the same foefire custom arena together and have them foot race from one Lord room to the other (no porting over the cliffs in the middle). As for me I'll gladly bet 100g on thief winning, any takers?

    I am willing to stream it as well. I'll play the Thief. And yes, I want to put gold down on this.

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @ArthurDent.9538 said:
    The obvious solution to this is get Trevor on thief and unowen on ranger/warrior in the same foefire custom arena together and have them foot race from one Lord room to the other (no porting over the cliffs in the middle). As for me I'll gladly bet 100g on thief winning, any takers?

    Which part of "perfectly horizontal" are you not quite getting? The point was that specifically sPvPs non-horizontal map design is why thieves mobility beats ranger and warrior, while WvWs perfectly flat planes make warrior and ranger win.

    We can do it in pvp, in wvw, in a pve dungeon, in a plane, on a train, it won't matter. The Thief will always win.

    Find a friend on soulbeast and warrior and do it then. And do it properly, like I did a while back. Odds are youll get the same result, which is warrior and ranger winning. Do watch out if youre trying to do it around castle in EBG though, sometimes you get the no valid path thing there, which might ruin the race. But no, thief will never win on a perfectly horizontal plane. Thats what the math shows, and thats what a couple tests I did showed as well.

    No, I need you to help me do this race so it gets done properly. I want to play the Thief and you be on the Soulbeast.

    What if I say no? Ive seen how this goes before, even when they get proven wrong, people dont admit it.

    Funny you mention that.

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @Trevor Boyer.6524
    I would bet gold on that too, if it comes to that I bet 300g on tif, if there are any takers.
    If mathematician doesnt kitten out, makes sure to record so we all can have a good laugh, dont be selfish plx.

    Time to ante up boys.

    @FrownyClown.8402 said:
    Dont make him repeat himself pls

    Too late.

    And on that day, a fine test sample was ran for everyone's enjoyment:

    This seems 100% accurate. Trevor even took the time to not use thief teleports in vertical areas he could so thief would possibly be faster meanwhile the only thing different he could do on ranger is play sword mainhand, which is only playable for core or owl which might make him a few secs faster cuz of swiftness but owl is also a weak option, also warrior he could have used stomp but that would make like a 5 sec difference at most. Yeah the pathing for ranger was mediocre at one point but Trevor also pointed that out before in his calculations plus no optimal pathing would make up that 20 secs which btw thief could have even more if they had a mainhand sword and/or infiltration signet.

    Oh there is a lot different he could do. Not use a non-horizontal map. Not make multiple major mistakes on warrior and ranger losing precious time. Not route them suboptimally while routing thief optimally. On my second try I was able to take 10 seconds off of his warrior time. Oh and thief cant get any faster.

    Edit: Shaved off 10 seconds off of his ranger time on my first attempt.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 14, 2020

    @ArthurDent.9538 said:

    @RedAvenged.5217 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @ArthurDent.9538 said:
    The obvious solution to this is get Trevor on thief and unowen on ranger/warrior in the same foefire custom arena together and have them foot race from one Lord room to the other (no porting over the cliffs in the middle). As for me I'll gladly bet 100g on thief winning, any takers?

    I am willing to stream it as well. I'll play the Thief. And yes, I want to put gold down on this.

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @ArthurDent.9538 said:
    The obvious solution to this is get Trevor on thief and unowen on ranger/warrior in the same foefire custom arena together and have them foot race from one Lord room to the other (no porting over the cliffs in the middle). As for me I'll gladly bet 100g on thief winning, any takers?

    Which part of "perfectly horizontal" are you not quite getting? The point was that specifically sPvPs non-horizontal map design is why thieves mobility beats ranger and warrior, while WvWs perfectly flat planes make warrior and ranger win.

    We can do it in pvp, in wvw, in a pve dungeon, in a plane, on a train, it won't matter. The Thief will always win.

    Find a friend on soulbeast and warrior and do it then. And do it properly, like I did a while back. Odds are youll get the same result, which is warrior and ranger winning. Do watch out if youre trying to do it around castle in EBG though, sometimes you get the no valid path thing there, which might ruin the race. But no, thief will never win on a perfectly horizontal plane. Thats what the math shows, and thats what a couple tests I did showed as well.

    No, I need you to help me do this race so it gets done properly. I want to play the Thief and you be on the Soulbeast.

    What if I say no? Ive seen how this goes before, even when they get proven wrong, people dont admit it.

    Funny you mention that.

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @Trevor Boyer.6524
    I would bet gold on that too, if it comes to that I bet 300g on tif, if there are any takers.
    If mathematician doesnt kitten out, makes sure to record so we all can have a good laugh, dont be selfish plx.

    Time to ante up boys.

    @FrownyClown.8402 said:
    Dont make him repeat himself pls

    Too late.

    And on that day, a fine test sample was ran for everyone's enjoyment:

    This seems 100% accurate. Trevor even took the time to not use thief teleports in vertical areas he could so thief would possibly be faster meanwhile the only thing different he could do on ranger is play sword mainhand, which is only playable for core or owl which might make him a few secs faster cuz of swiftness but owl is also a weak option, also warrior he could have used stomp but that would make like a 5 sec difference at most. Yeah the pathing for ranger was mediocre at one point but Trevor also pointed that out before in his calculations plus no optimal pathing would make up that 20 secs which btw thief could have even more if they had a mainhand sword and/or infiltration signet.

    Warrior would be a bit faster with sword/wh and ranger would obviously be faster with mh sword and clean about-face lightning reflexes. With that being said, thief could also be faster with spamming agility signet and channeled vigor for extra dash dodges (50% movement speed in stealth is negligible in ooc test) as well as running infiltrator sig or about-face roll for initiative for more sb 5's, not to mention potential for shadow portal in a there and back test as opposed to a one way test.

    The problem is that none of that actually pans out well on Ranger. About facing with LR just doesn't work out well, there is too much animation pause and too many things can go wrong. Even with a macro, it's not worth the trouble. Try it and you'll see what I mean. And 1hand sword just strangely doesn't work out well. It's the same thing when UNO mentioned using pet swapping on Soulbeast which doesn't have any gains in speed because the 9s merge CD between each swap. The skill cycling actually isn't worth it if you're aiming for distance traveled, not to mention that Bird Swoop was put to an 18s CD, whereas Gazelle is 12s. It's just best to spam Gazelle F2. Again, go try this stuff out for yourself and you'll see what I mean.

    Also consider we aren't talking theoretical run builds here. We're talking actual builds that you'd want to play pvp/wvw with and not suck when in combat.

    I can't speak for Warrior or Thief adjustments as I'm no master of those classes, but I'm telling you the Soulbeast build in that video is near peak performance in terms of speed. The only thing that could make it go faster is the 3% gain if it had perma swiftness and if I had practiced that route 10x or something like a Beetle race before recording it so I could cut every corner with maximum precision. And even if I did that, I may pick up a margin of 5s or something on the route, but nothing that would even begin to make pace with the DP Daredevil. And if I had done the same thing "practice the route & rotation" on the DP Daredevil, I could probably pick up 6 to 8 seconds or more of ground.

    And again... I mean... if you're talking in combat, that +50% while stealthed puts DP Daredevil way way way ahead of Ranger & Warrior in terms of sheer horizontal movement, and that's not even considering it's ability to port up and over objects for serious corner cutting.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 14, 2020

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @ArthurDent.9538 said:

    @RedAvenged.5217 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @ArthurDent.9538 said:
    The obvious solution to this is get Trevor on thief and unowen on ranger/warrior in the same foefire custom arena together and have them foot race from one Lord room to the other (no porting over the cliffs in the middle). As for me I'll gladly bet 100g on thief winning, any takers?

    I am willing to stream it as well. I'll play the Thief. And yes, I want to put gold down on this.

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @ArthurDent.9538 said:
    The obvious solution to this is get Trevor on thief and unowen on ranger/warrior in the same foefire custom arena together and have them foot race from one Lord room to the other (no porting over the cliffs in the middle). As for me I'll gladly bet 100g on thief winning, any takers?

    Which part of "perfectly horizontal" are you not quite getting? The point was that specifically sPvPs non-horizontal map design is why thieves mobility beats ranger and warrior, while WvWs perfectly flat planes make warrior and ranger win.

    We can do it in pvp, in wvw, in a pve dungeon, in a plane, on a train, it won't matter. The Thief will always win.

    Find a friend on soulbeast and warrior and do it then. And do it properly, like I did a while back. Odds are youll get the same result, which is warrior and ranger winning. Do watch out if youre trying to do it around castle in EBG though, sometimes you get the no valid path thing there, which might ruin the race. But no, thief will never win on a perfectly horizontal plane. Thats what the math shows, and thats what a couple tests I did showed as well.

    No, I need you to help me do this race so it gets done properly. I want to play the Thief and you be on the Soulbeast.

    What if I say no? Ive seen how this goes before, even when they get proven wrong, people dont admit it.

    Funny you mention that.

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @Trevor Boyer.6524
    I would bet gold on that too, if it comes to that I bet 300g on tif, if there are any takers.
    If mathematician doesnt kitten out, makes sure to record so we all can have a good laugh, dont be selfish plx.

    Time to ante up boys.

    @FrownyClown.8402 said:
    Dont make him repeat himself pls

    Too late.

    And on that day, a fine test sample was ran for everyone's enjoyment:

    This seems 100% accurate. Trevor even took the time to not use thief teleports in vertical areas he could so thief would possibly be faster meanwhile the only thing different he could do on ranger is play sword mainhand, which is only playable for core or owl which might make him a few secs faster cuz of swiftness but owl is also a weak option, also warrior he could have used stomp but that would make like a 5 sec difference at most. Yeah the pathing for ranger was mediocre at one point but Trevor also pointed that out before in his calculations plus no optimal pathing would make up that 20 secs which btw thief could have even more if they had a mainhand sword and/or infiltration signet.

    Warrior would be a bit faster with sword/wh and ranger would obviously be faster with mh sword and clean about-face lightning reflexes. With that being said, thief could also be faster with spamming agility signet and channeled vigor for extra dash dodges (50% movement speed in stealth is negligible in ooc test) as well as running infiltrator sig or about-face roll for initiative for more sb 5's, not to mention potential for shadow portal in a there and back test as opposed to a one way test.

    The problem is that none of that actually pans out well on Ranger. Believe me, I have 8+ years deep experience with concocting impossible to chase Ranger builds. About facing with LR just doesn't work out well, there is too much animation pause and too many things can go wrong. Even with a macro, it's not worth the trouble. Try it and you'll see what I mean. And 1hand sword just strangely doesn't work out well. It's the same thing when UNO mentioned using pet swapping on Soulbeast which doesn't have any gains in speed because the 9s merge CD between each swap. The skill cycling actually isn't worth it if you're aiming for distance traveled, not to mention that Bird Swoop was put to an 18s CD, whereas Gazelle is 12s. It's just best to spam Gazelle F2. Again, go try this stuff out for yourself and you'll see what I mean.

    Also consider we aren't talking theoretical run builds here. We're talking actual builds that you'd want to play pvp/wvw with and not suck when in combat.

    I can't speak for Warrior or Thief adjustments as I'm no master of those classes, but I'm telling you the Soulbeast build in that video is near peak performance in terms of speed. The only thing that could make it go faster is the 3% gain if it had perma swiftness and if I had practiced that route 10x or something like a Beetle race before recording it so I could cut every corner with maximum precision. And even if I did that, I may pick up a margin of 5s or something on the route, but nothing that would even begin to make pace with the DP Daredevil. And if I had done the same thing "practice the route & rotation" on the DP Daredevil, I could probably pick up 6 to 8 seconds or more of ground.

    Yeah thats why I was able to get down to a 1:25 time during my first attempt, and 1:23 within 4 attempts while keeping one set of gates locked (forcing me to use the teleport thing). "Near peak performance" my kitten. You did it so horribly you managed to lose 10 seconds of free time, and there is still room for optimisation. I think matching thieves 1:17 is pretty doable. On the other hand, the thief route you optimised pretty perfectly. I was only able to gain a bit less than a second, and pretty much even that just thanks to you dodging into a gate.

    And again... I mean... if you're talking in combat, that +50% while stealthed puts DP Daredevil way way way ahead of Ranger & Warrior in terms of sheer horizontal movement, and that's not even considering it's ability to port up and over objects for serious corner cutting.

    No, actually, it doesnt. See, in-combat whats more important than the 50% vs 33% is how much of your movement is done with movement abilities. Because those do not get any slower. So the more time you spend using those, the more of an edge you gain. And Warrior and Ranger spend more time using those than thief does. That pulls ahead more than the occasional 50%. And as for the " ability to port up and over objects for serious corner cutting.", thats precisely missing the point. We were comparing horizontal movement, where you cant do that all.

  • @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @RedAvenged.5217 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @ArthurDent.9538 said:
    The obvious solution to this is get Trevor on thief and unowen on ranger/warrior in the same foefire custom arena together and have them foot race from one Lord room to the other (no porting over the cliffs in the middle). As for me I'll gladly bet 100g on thief winning, any takers?

    I am willing to stream it as well. I'll play the Thief. And yes, I want to put gold down on this.

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @ArthurDent.9538 said:
    The obvious solution to this is get Trevor on thief and unowen on ranger/warrior in the same foefire custom arena together and have them foot race from one Lord room to the other (no porting over the cliffs in the middle). As for me I'll gladly bet 100g on thief winning, any takers?

    Which part of "perfectly horizontal" are you not quite getting? The point was that specifically sPvPs non-horizontal map design is why thieves mobility beats ranger and warrior, while WvWs perfectly flat planes make warrior and ranger win.

    We can do it in pvp, in wvw, in a pve dungeon, in a plane, on a train, it won't matter. The Thief will always win.

    Find a friend on soulbeast and warrior and do it then. And do it properly, like I did a while back. Odds are youll get the same result, which is warrior and ranger winning. Do watch out if youre trying to do it around castle in EBG though, sometimes you get the no valid path thing there, which might ruin the race. But no, thief will never win on a perfectly horizontal plane. Thats what the math shows, and thats what a couple tests I did showed as well.

    No, I need you to help me do this race so it gets done properly. I want to play the Thief and you be on the Soulbeast.

    What if I say no? Ive seen how this goes before, even when they get proven wrong, people dont admit it.

    Funny you mention that.

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @Trevor Boyer.6524
    I would bet gold on that too, if it comes to that I bet 300g on tif, if there are any takers.
    If mathematician doesnt kitten out, makes sure to record so we all can have a good laugh, dont be selfish plx.

    Time to ante up boys.

    @FrownyClown.8402 said:
    Dont make him repeat himself pls

    Too late.

    And on that day, a fine test sample was ran for everyone's enjoyment:

    This seems 100% accurate. Trevor even took the time to not use thief teleports in vertical areas he could so thief would possibly be faster meanwhile the only thing different he could do on ranger is play sword mainhand, which is only playable for core or owl which might make him a few secs faster cuz of swiftness but owl is also a weak option, also warrior he could have used stomp but that would make like a 5 sec difference at most. Yeah the pathing for ranger was mediocre at one point but Trevor also pointed that out before in his calculations plus no optimal pathing would make up that 20 secs which btw thief could have even more if they had a mainhand sword and/or infiltration signet.

    Oh there is a lot different he could do. Not use a non-horizontal map. Not make multiple major mistakes on warrior and ranger losing precious time. Not route them suboptimally while routing thief optimally. On my second try I was able to take 10 seconds off of his warrior time. Oh and thief cant get any faster.

    Edit: Shaved off 10 seconds off of his ranger time on my first attempt.

    Fight with him !
    Install OCB too (recored program) and video-tape the match
    Both will have proofs of what happens

    I will incinerate with my cheassy daily hero burn Guardian , anyone who do something wrong !

    1 month

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 14, 2020

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @RedAvenged.5217 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @ArthurDent.9538 said:
    The obvious solution to this is get Trevor on thief and unowen on ranger/warrior in the same foefire custom arena together and have them foot race from one Lord room to the other (no porting over the cliffs in the middle). As for me I'll gladly bet 100g on thief winning, any takers?

    I am willing to stream it as well. I'll play the Thief. And yes, I want to put gold down on this.

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @ArthurDent.9538 said:
    The obvious solution to this is get Trevor on thief and unowen on ranger/warrior in the same foefire custom arena together and have them foot race from one Lord room to the other (no porting over the cliffs in the middle). As for me I'll gladly bet 100g on thief winning, any takers?

    Which part of "perfectly horizontal" are you not quite getting? The point was that specifically sPvPs non-horizontal map design is why thieves mobility beats ranger and warrior, while WvWs perfectly flat planes make warrior and ranger win.

    We can do it in pvp, in wvw, in a pve dungeon, in a plane, on a train, it won't matter. The Thief will always win.

    Find a friend on soulbeast and warrior and do it then. And do it properly, like I did a while back. Odds are youll get the same result, which is warrior and ranger winning. Do watch out if youre trying to do it around castle in EBG though, sometimes you get the no valid path thing there, which might ruin the race. But no, thief will never win on a perfectly horizontal plane. Thats what the math shows, and thats what a couple tests I did showed as well.

    No, I need you to help me do this race so it gets done properly. I want to play the Thief and you be on the Soulbeast.

    What if I say no? Ive seen how this goes before, even when they get proven wrong, people dont admit it.

    Funny you mention that.

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @Trevor Boyer.6524
    I would bet gold on that too, if it comes to that I bet 300g on tif, if there are any takers.
    If mathematician doesnt kitten out, makes sure to record so we all can have a good laugh, dont be selfish plx.

    Time to ante up boys.

    @FrownyClown.8402 said:
    Dont make him repeat himself pls

    Too late.

    And on that day, a fine test sample was ran for everyone's enjoyment:

    This seems 100% accurate. Trevor even took the time to not use thief teleports in vertical areas he could so thief would possibly be faster meanwhile the only thing different he could do on ranger is play sword mainhand, which is only playable for core or owl which might make him a few secs faster cuz of swiftness but owl is also a weak option, also warrior he could have used stomp but that would make like a 5 sec difference at most. Yeah the pathing for ranger was mediocre at one point but Trevor also pointed that out before in his calculations plus no optimal pathing would make up that 20 secs which btw thief could have even more if they had a mainhand sword and/or infiltration signet.

    Oh there is a lot different he could do. Not use a non-horizontal map. Not make multiple major mistakes on warrior and ranger losing precious time. Not route them suboptimally while routing thief optimally. On my second try I was able to take 10 seconds off of his warrior time. Oh and thief cant get any faster.

    Edit: Shaved off 10 seconds off of his ranger time on my first attempt.

    Fight with him !
    Install OCB too (recored program) and video-tape the match
    Both will have proofs of what happens

    I will incinerate with my cheassy daily hero burn Guardian , anyone who do something wrong !

    I love how that guy claims that he logs into ranger, cuts my time by 10s somehow, doesn't record it for proof.

    Then he claims that somehow my Thief route was optimized perfectly but somehow my Ranger route was trash, despite me being a Ranger main who never plays Thief.

    Anyway, this is silly. My work is done here unless this guy is willing to go in game with me.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @RedAvenged.5217 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @ArthurDent.9538 said:
    The obvious solution to this is get Trevor on thief and unowen on ranger/warrior in the same foefire custom arena together and have them foot race from one Lord room to the other (no porting over the cliffs in the middle). As for me I'll gladly bet 100g on thief winning, any takers?

    I am willing to stream it as well. I'll play the Thief. And yes, I want to put gold down on this.

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @ArthurDent.9538 said:
    The obvious solution to this is get Trevor on thief and unowen on ranger/warrior in the same foefire custom arena together and have them foot race from one Lord room to the other (no porting over the cliffs in the middle). As for me I'll gladly bet 100g on thief winning, any takers?

    Which part of "perfectly horizontal" are you not quite getting? The point was that specifically sPvPs non-horizontal map design is why thieves mobility beats ranger and warrior, while WvWs perfectly flat planes make warrior and ranger win.

    We can do it in pvp, in wvw, in a pve dungeon, in a plane, on a train, it won't matter. The Thief will always win.

    Find a friend on soulbeast and warrior and do it then. And do it properly, like I did a while back. Odds are youll get the same result, which is warrior and ranger winning. Do watch out if youre trying to do it around castle in EBG though, sometimes you get the no valid path thing there, which might ruin the race. But no, thief will never win on a perfectly horizontal plane. Thats what the math shows, and thats what a couple tests I did showed as well.

    No, I need you to help me do this race so it gets done properly. I want to play the Thief and you be on the Soulbeast.

    What if I say no? Ive seen how this goes before, even when they get proven wrong, people dont admit it.

    Funny you mention that.

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @Trevor Boyer.6524
    I would bet gold on that too, if it comes to that I bet 300g on tif, if there are any takers.
    If mathematician doesnt kitten out, makes sure to record so we all can have a good laugh, dont be selfish plx.

    Time to ante up boys.

    @FrownyClown.8402 said:
    Dont make him repeat himself pls

    Too late.

    And on that day, a fine test sample was ran for everyone's enjoyment:

    This seems 100% accurate. Trevor even took the time to not use thief teleports in vertical areas he could so thief would possibly be faster meanwhile the only thing different he could do on ranger is play sword mainhand, which is only playable for core or owl which might make him a few secs faster cuz of swiftness but owl is also a weak option, also warrior he could have used stomp but that would make like a 5 sec difference at most. Yeah the pathing for ranger was mediocre at one point but Trevor also pointed that out before in his calculations plus no optimal pathing would make up that 20 secs which btw thief could have even more if they had a mainhand sword and/or infiltration signet.

    Oh there is a lot different he could do. Not use a non-horizontal map. Not make multiple major mistakes on warrior and ranger losing precious time. Not route them suboptimally while routing thief optimally. On my second try I was able to take 10 seconds off of his warrior time. Oh and thief cant get any faster.

    Edit: Shaved off 10 seconds off of his ranger time on my first attempt.

    Fight with him !
    Install OCB too (recored program) and video-tape the match
    Both will have proofs of what happens

    I will incinerate with my cheassy daily hero burn Guardian , anyone who do something wrong !

    I love how that guy claims that he logs into ranger, cuts my time by 10s somehow, doesn't record it for proof.

    Installing OBS or some other tool is more effort than youre worth. And that "somehow" wasnt exactly difficult. Besides using Owl + Gazelle, I also didnt keep delaying my skills, didnt take wide detours and didnt bonk into walls. Oh and I didnt forget about swiftness, but thats neither here nor there.

    Then he claims that somehow my Thief route was optimized perfectly but somehow my Ranger route was trash, despite me being a Ranger main who never plays Thief.

    What does being a main have to do with anything? With thief there were no skills you could delay. You didnt take wide detours, you didnt bonk into walls. Legit the only thing ruining the perfect streak is the dodge into the gate teleport.

    Anyway, this is silly. My work is done here unless this guy is willing to go in game with me.

    But you didnt do anything.

    Obvious reference aside, no. Your work would be done when you do a proper test in WvW, on a horizontal plane, in a straight line, with optimal skill usage. Until then you just have a shoddy test that is clearly worthless and that I was able to outperform within less than 10 minutes.

  • @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @RedAvenged.5217 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @ArthurDent.9538 said:
    The obvious solution to this is get Trevor on thief and unowen on ranger/warrior in the same foefire custom arena together and have them foot race from one Lord room to the other (no porting over the cliffs in the middle). As for me I'll gladly bet 100g on thief winning, any takers?

    I am willing to stream it as well. I'll play the Thief. And yes, I want to put gold down on this.

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @ArthurDent.9538 said:
    The obvious solution to this is get Trevor on thief and unowen on ranger/warrior in the same foefire custom arena together and have them foot race from one Lord room to the other (no porting over the cliffs in the middle). As for me I'll gladly bet 100g on thief winning, any takers?

    Which part of "perfectly horizontal" are you not quite getting? The point was that specifically sPvPs non-horizontal map design is why thieves mobility beats ranger and warrior, while WvWs perfectly flat planes make warrior and ranger win.

    We can do it in pvp, in wvw, in a pve dungeon, in a plane, on a train, it won't matter. The Thief will always win.

    Find a friend on soulbeast and warrior and do it then. And do it properly, like I did a while back. Odds are youll get the same result, which is warrior and ranger winning. Do watch out if youre trying to do it around castle in EBG though, sometimes you get the no valid path thing there, which might ruin the race. But no, thief will never win on a perfectly horizontal plane. Thats what the math shows, and thats what a couple tests I did showed as well.

    No, I need you to help me do this race so it gets done properly. I want to play the Thief and you be on the Soulbeast.

    What if I say no? Ive seen how this goes before, even when they get proven wrong, people dont admit it.

    Funny you mention that.

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @Trevor Boyer.6524
    I would bet gold on that too, if it comes to that I bet 300g on tif, if there are any takers.
    If mathematician doesnt kitten out, makes sure to record so we all can have a good laugh, dont be selfish plx.

    Time to ante up boys.

    @FrownyClown.8402 said:
    Dont make him repeat himself pls

    Too late.

    And on that day, a fine test sample was ran for everyone's enjoyment:

    This seems 100% accurate. Trevor even took the time to not use thief teleports in vertical areas he could so thief would possibly be faster meanwhile the only thing different he could do on ranger is play sword mainhand, which is only playable for core or owl which might make him a few secs faster cuz of swiftness but owl is also a weak option, also warrior he could have used stomp but that would make like a 5 sec difference at most. Yeah the pathing for ranger was mediocre at one point but Trevor also pointed that out before in his calculations plus no optimal pathing would make up that 20 secs which btw thief could have even more if they had a mainhand sword and/or infiltration signet.

    Oh there is a lot different he could do. Not use a non-horizontal map. Not make multiple major mistakes on warrior and ranger losing precious time. Not route them suboptimally while routing thief optimally. On my second try I was able to take 10 seconds off of his warrior time. Oh and thief cant get any faster.

    Edit: Shaved off 10 seconds off of his ranger time on my first attempt.

    Fight with him !
    Install OCB too (recored program) and video-tape the match
    Both will have proofs of what happens

    I will incinerate with my cheassy daily hero burn Guardian , anyone who do something wrong !

    I love how that guy claims that he logs into ranger, cuts my time by 10s somehow, doesn't record it for proof.

    Installing OBS or some other tool is more effort than youre worth.

    You don't have to. I will record it for us. All we have to do is go to the same place and race in a straight line, and then post the video in this discussion.

    Let me know when you're ready.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @RedAvenged.5217 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @ArthurDent.9538 said:
    The obvious solution to this is get Trevor on thief and unowen on ranger/warrior in the same foefire custom arena together and have them foot race from one Lord room to the other (no porting over the cliffs in the middle). As for me I'll gladly bet 100g on thief winning, any takers?

    I am willing to stream it as well. I'll play the Thief. And yes, I want to put gold down on this.

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @ArthurDent.9538 said:
    The obvious solution to this is get Trevor on thief and unowen on ranger/warrior in the same foefire custom arena together and have them foot race from one Lord room to the other (no porting over the cliffs in the middle). As for me I'll gladly bet 100g on thief winning, any takers?

    Which part of "perfectly horizontal" are you not quite getting? The point was that specifically sPvPs non-horizontal map design is why thieves mobility beats ranger and warrior, while WvWs perfectly flat planes make warrior and ranger win.

    We can do it in pvp, in wvw, in a pve dungeon, in a plane, on a train, it won't matter. The Thief will always win.

    Find a friend on soulbeast and warrior and do it then. And do it properly, like I did a while back. Odds are youll get the same result, which is warrior and ranger winning. Do watch out if youre trying to do it around castle in EBG though, sometimes you get the no valid path thing there, which might ruin the race. But no, thief will never win on a perfectly horizontal plane. Thats what the math shows, and thats what a couple tests I did showed as well.

    No, I need you to help me do this race so it gets done properly. I want to play the Thief and you be on the Soulbeast.

    What if I say no? Ive seen how this goes before, even when they get proven wrong, people dont admit it.

    Funny you mention that.

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @Trevor Boyer.6524
    I would bet gold on that too, if it comes to that I bet 300g on tif, if there are any takers.
    If mathematician doesnt kitten out, makes sure to record so we all can have a good laugh, dont be selfish plx.

    Time to ante up boys.

    @FrownyClown.8402 said:
    Dont make him repeat himself pls

    Too late.

    And on that day, a fine test sample was ran for everyone's enjoyment:

    This seems 100% accurate. Trevor even took the time to not use thief teleports in vertical areas he could so thief would possibly be faster meanwhile the only thing different he could do on ranger is play sword mainhand, which is only playable for core or owl which might make him a few secs faster cuz of swiftness but owl is also a weak option, also warrior he could have used stomp but that would make like a 5 sec difference at most. Yeah the pathing for ranger was mediocre at one point but Trevor also pointed that out before in his calculations plus no optimal pathing would make up that 20 secs which btw thief could have even more if they had a mainhand sword and/or infiltration signet.

    Oh there is a lot different he could do. Not use a non-horizontal map. Not make multiple major mistakes on warrior and ranger losing precious time. Not route them suboptimally while routing thief optimally. On my second try I was able to take 10 seconds off of his warrior time. Oh and thief cant get any faster.

    Edit: Shaved off 10 seconds off of his ranger time on my first attempt.

    Fight with him !
    Install OCB too (recored program) and video-tape the match
    Both will have proofs of what happens

    I will incinerate with my cheassy daily hero burn Guardian , anyone who do something wrong !

    I love how that guy claims that he logs into ranger, cuts my time by 10s somehow, doesn't record it for proof.

    Installing OBS or some other tool is more effort than youre worth.

    You don't have to. I will record it for us. All we have to do is go to the same place and race in a straight line, and then post the video in this discussion.

    Let me know when you're ready.

    Which part of "I dont like wasting time" is difficult to understand? Not to mention the obvious problem of trying to coordinate in WvW (assuming we even are in a matchup). Test it with someone on the same server as you.

  • @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @RedAvenged.5217 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @ArthurDent.9538 said:
    The obvious solution to this is get Trevor on thief and unowen on ranger/warrior in the same foefire custom arena together and have them foot race from one Lord room to the other (no porting over the cliffs in the middle). As for me I'll gladly bet 100g on thief winning, any takers?

    I am willing to stream it as well. I'll play the Thief. And yes, I want to put gold down on this.

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @ArthurDent.9538 said:
    The obvious solution to this is get Trevor on thief and unowen on ranger/warrior in the same foefire custom arena together and have them foot race from one Lord room to the other (no porting over the cliffs in the middle). As for me I'll gladly bet 100g on thief winning, any takers?

    Which part of "perfectly horizontal" are you not quite getting? The point was that specifically sPvPs non-horizontal map design is why thieves mobility beats ranger and warrior, while WvWs perfectly flat planes make warrior and ranger win.

    We can do it in pvp, in wvw, in a pve dungeon, in a plane, on a train, it won't matter. The Thief will always win.

    Find a friend on soulbeast and warrior and do it then. And do it properly, like I did a while back. Odds are youll get the same result, which is warrior and ranger winning. Do watch out if youre trying to do it around castle in EBG though, sometimes you get the no valid path thing there, which might ruin the race. But no, thief will never win on a perfectly horizontal plane. Thats what the math shows, and thats what a couple tests I did showed as well.

    No, I need you to help me do this race so it gets done properly. I want to play the Thief and you be on the Soulbeast.

    What if I say no? Ive seen how this goes before, even when they get proven wrong, people dont admit it.

    Funny you mention that.

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @Trevor Boyer.6524
    I would bet gold on that too, if it comes to that I bet 300g on tif, if there are any takers.
    If mathematician doesnt kitten out, makes sure to record so we all can have a good laugh, dont be selfish plx.

    Time to ante up boys.

    @FrownyClown.8402 said:
    Dont make him repeat himself pls

    Too late.

    And on that day, a fine test sample was ran for everyone's enjoyment:

    This seems 100% accurate. Trevor even took the time to not use thief teleports in vertical areas he could so thief would possibly be faster meanwhile the only thing different he could do on ranger is play sword mainhand, which is only playable for core or owl which might make him a few secs faster cuz of swiftness but owl is also a weak option, also warrior he could have used stomp but that would make like a 5 sec difference at most. Yeah the pathing for ranger was mediocre at one point but Trevor also pointed that out before in his calculations plus no optimal pathing would make up that 20 secs which btw thief could have even more if they had a mainhand sword and/or infiltration signet.

    Oh there is a lot different he could do. Not use a non-horizontal map. Not make multiple major mistakes on warrior and ranger losing precious time. Not route them suboptimally while routing thief optimally. On my second try I was able to take 10 seconds off of his warrior time. Oh and thief cant get any faster.

    Edit: Shaved off 10 seconds off of his ranger time on my first attempt.

    Fight with him !
    Install OCB too (recored program) and video-tape the match
    Both will have proofs of what happens

    I will incinerate with my cheassy daily hero burn Guardian , anyone who do something wrong !

    I love how that guy claims that he logs into ranger, cuts my time by 10s somehow, doesn't record it for proof.

    Installing OBS or some other tool is more effort than youre worth.

    You don't have to. I will record it for us. All we have to do is go to the same place and race in a straight line, and then post the video in this discussion.

    Let me know when you're ready.

    Which part of "I dont like wasting time" is difficult to understand? Not to mention the obvious problem of trying to coordinate in WvW (assuming we even are in a matchup). Test it with someone on the same server as you.

    We can run in a straight line across Lion's Arch, starting from the fractal portal all the way north to the entrance to Gendarran Fields. Totally a straight horizontal flat line. It's even straight and flat enough to make riding a beetle easy down that path.

    Let me know when you're ready.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @RedAvenged.5217 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @ArthurDent.9538 said:
    The obvious solution to this is get Trevor on thief and unowen on ranger/warrior in the same foefire custom arena together and have them foot race from one Lord room to the other (no porting over the cliffs in the middle). As for me I'll gladly bet 100g on thief winning, any takers?

    I am willing to stream it as well. I'll play the Thief. And yes, I want to put gold down on this.

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @ArthurDent.9538 said:
    The obvious solution to this is get Trevor on thief and unowen on ranger/warrior in the same foefire custom arena together and have them foot race from one Lord room to the other (no porting over the cliffs in the middle). As for me I'll gladly bet 100g on thief winning, any takers?

    Which part of "perfectly horizontal" are you not quite getting? The point was that specifically sPvPs non-horizontal map design is why thieves mobility beats ranger and warrior, while WvWs perfectly flat planes make warrior and ranger win.

    We can do it in pvp, in wvw, in a pve dungeon, in a plane, on a train, it won't matter. The Thief will always win.

    Find a friend on soulbeast and warrior and do it then. And do it properly, like I did a while back. Odds are youll get the same result, which is warrior and ranger winning. Do watch out if youre trying to do it around castle in EBG though, sometimes you get the no valid path thing there, which might ruin the race. But no, thief will never win on a perfectly horizontal plane. Thats what the math shows, and thats what a couple tests I did showed as well.

    No, I need you to help me do this race so it gets done properly. I want to play the Thief and you be on the Soulbeast.

    What if I say no? Ive seen how this goes before, even when they get proven wrong, people dont admit it.

    Funny you mention that.

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @Trevor Boyer.6524
    I would bet gold on that too, if it comes to that I bet 300g on tif, if there are any takers.
    If mathematician doesnt kitten out, makes sure to record so we all can have a good laugh, dont be selfish plx.

    Time to ante up boys.

    @FrownyClown.8402 said:
    Dont make him repeat himself pls

    Too late.

    And on that day, a fine test sample was ran for everyone's enjoyment:

    This seems 100% accurate. Trevor even took the time to not use thief teleports in vertical areas he could so thief would possibly be faster meanwhile the only thing different he could do on ranger is play sword mainhand, which is only playable for core or owl which might make him a few secs faster cuz of swiftness but owl is also a weak option, also warrior he could have used stomp but that would make like a 5 sec difference at most. Yeah the pathing for ranger was mediocre at one point but Trevor also pointed that out before in his calculations plus no optimal pathing would make up that 20 secs which btw thief could have even more if they had a mainhand sword and/or infiltration signet.

    Oh there is a lot different he could do. Not use a non-horizontal map. Not make multiple major mistakes on warrior and ranger losing precious time. Not route them suboptimally while routing thief optimally. On my second try I was able to take 10 seconds off of his warrior time. Oh and thief cant get any faster.

    Edit: Shaved off 10 seconds off of his ranger time on my first attempt.

    Fight with him !
    Install OCB too (recored program) and video-tape the match
    Both will have proofs of what happens

    I will incinerate with my cheassy daily hero burn Guardian , anyone who do something wrong !

    I love how that guy claims that he logs into ranger, cuts my time by 10s somehow, doesn't record it for proof.

    Installing OBS or some other tool is more effort than youre worth.

    You don't have to. I will record it for us. All we have to do is go to the same place and race in a straight line, and then post the video in this discussion.

    Let me know when you're ready.

    Which part of "I dont like wasting time" is difficult to understand? Not to mention the obvious problem of trying to coordinate in WvW (assuming we even are in a matchup). Test it with someone on the same server as you.

    We can run in a straight line across Lion's Arch, starting from the fractal portal all the way north to the entrance to Gendarran Fields. Totally a straight horizontal flat line. It's even straight and flat enough to make riding a beetle easy down that path.

    First, which part of "waste of time" is too hard to understand? Second, Im going to have to ask if you actually know what the words "straight" and "horizontal" mean. That path is many things, but straight and horizontal it is not. You literally go over a heavily curved bridge. Third, you do realise that that experiment has a few major issues, yes? For example the fact that the ranger and warrior would have a free movement speed cap. Or the fact that several skills are different from WvW/sPvP.

  • Stop posting about it in this thread then if this is a waste of time @UNOwen.7132 . Getting the last word here doesn't mean squat at the end of the day.

    More on topic, evidently, thief is still doing a great job using its mobility and stealth to decap nodes. Living up to its namesake for sure, stealing valuables when no one is looking.

  • Bast.7253Bast.7253 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sifu.9745 said:
    I play Staff + P/P or SB Thief and my survivability is quite high thx to infinite dodges and Stealth (much higher than Repaer with zero survivability), but dmg on Staff is a bit low, lower then double Pistol dmg lol. Anyway Staff is the most fun Thief's weapon imo and is easy to play for a casual like me.

    Edit: About "Thief has no dmg": yesterday a stealthy dagger/pistol thief deleted my Thief three times in a row within 3 -5 seconds in unranked pvp! I didn't even realized what's going on. 50% + health gone from a stealth attack (backstab i guess), another 50% in next 3 to max 5 seconds before i was able to react (it was night and i was a bit sleepy with low concentration but anyway, dmg was just absurd) I have never experienced such a brutal burst before. Show me any other profession that can burst you down so quickly, with exception of burn Guardian.

    Yeah, I've always enjoyed staff but it just has no place in this meta.

    Tried a few games earlier and it's just way too much effort to land any damage, and the damage you do land pales in comparison to some block spam core symbol/burn guard.

  • Shiyo.3578Shiyo.3578 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Bast.7253 said:

    @Sifu.9745 said:
    I play Staff + P/P or SB Thief and my survivability is quite high thx to infinite dodges and Stealth (much higher than Repaer with zero survivability), but dmg on Staff is a bit low, lower then double Pistol dmg lol. Anyway Staff is the most fun Thief's weapon imo and is easy to play for a casual like me.

    Edit: About "Thief has no dmg": yesterday a stealthy dagger/pistol thief deleted my Thief three times in a row within 3 -5 seconds in unranked pvp! I didn't even realized what's going on. 50% + health gone from a stealth attack (backstab i guess), another 50% in next 3 to max 5 seconds before i was able to react (it was night and i was a bit sleepy with low concentration but anyway, dmg was just absurd) I have never experienced such a brutal burst before. Show me any other profession that can burst you down so quickly, with exception of burn Guardian.

    Yeah, I've always enjoyed staff but it just has no place in this meta.

    Tried a few games earlier and it's just way too much effort to land any damage, and the damage you do land pales in comparison to some block spam core symbol/burn guard.

    The skills team needs to remove the evade off vault to make it a good weapon in PvP, it'll always be trash until they do that as that skill being an evade holds the weapon back forever in PvP.

  • @Bast.7253 said:

    @Sifu.9745 said:
    I play Staff + P/P or SB Thief and my survivability is quite high thx to infinite dodges and Stealth (much higher than Repaer with zero survivability), but dmg on Staff is a bit low, lower then double Pistol dmg lol. Anyway Staff is the most fun Thief's weapon imo and is easy to play for a casual like me.

    Edit: About "Thief has no dmg": yesterday a stealthy dagger/pistol thief deleted my Thief three times in a row within 3 -5 seconds in unranked pvp! I didn't even realized what's going on. 50% + health gone from a stealth attack (backstab i guess), another 50% in next 3 to max 5 seconds before i was able to react (it was night and i was a bit sleepy with low concentration but anyway, dmg was just absurd) I have never experienced such a brutal burst before. Show me any other profession that can burst you down so quickly, with exception of burn Guardian.

    Yeah, I've always enjoyed staff but it just has no place in this meta.

    Tried a few games earlier and it's just way too much effort to land any damage, and the damage you do land pales in comparison to some block spam core symbol/burn guard.

    Vault damage is quite good rn though it’s one of the few things that devs barely nerfed alongside sword 3 and heartseeker. There is however no point in comparing it core symbols or burn guard. It’s not the same role- staff is still gonna be a roamer so comparing it to a side noder or team fight builds damage makes no sense half the time when 75% of matches you will do 1/3 the damage of non bot players who play those things.