Cantha Elite Spec: The Disciple

[Arctarius.2649]

A Master martial artist, utilizing Duel wielded Foci (Fist weapons) to deliver deadly punches and kicks. The thief would play with acrobatic fast attacks, doing heavy damage when landing multiple punches and kicks but has less reliance on dodging and more focus on counters / blocks.

As a martial artist myself, this would be a dream come true :) please make it happen anet.

[Astyrah.4015]

@"Arctarius.2649" said:A Master martial artist,acrobatic fast attacks

i think we have daredevil already. but yeah unarmed combat / fists as weapons are one of the most requested weapons (alongside spears usable on land) on topics about "what new weapon should the expansion add" -- regarding the elite spec you propose, aside from the punches and kicks it has to set itself apart even more from daredevil which is sorta similar in concept and is also based on martial arts

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bōhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bōjutsu

[Arctarius.2649]

But I don’t want it to be like daredevil, as I stated it would be a combat oriented class, you would need to time counter attacks and such rather than just spamming dodge, daredevil is not a counter class in any sense. I would actually be ok with this variation kit having one dodge, but an arsenal of physical utilities to fill the void. Daredevil utilities were all throwing knives minus fist flurry and the one block.

[Astyrah.4015]

well spellbreaker focuses on counter attacks as part of it's special but the theme of the elite spec isn't as "martial arts"-ish.

i guess you can have skills or utilities that work like ranger's greatsword-4 but you have to take in account all existing weapons that thieves use including ranged ones and not just the fist weapons/dual focus

[Arctarius.2649]

If you ever played blade and soul, I honestly don’t like that game but the theme of the Kung fu master in it is more or less what I want to see in this game. It is possible, they just need to take out things like stealth. It would change the playstyle entirely but they could make it so that stealth effects this thief variation differently, like giving it an extra defense but not actually making them invisible. An example making their endurance function like a shroud that is empowered by stealth traits, when you use your dodges you expel Chi and do a counter or somthing. They can do allot if they are creative.

[anduriell.6280]

what thief needs is some sort of support AoE spec, it already has too much of melee single target not what you are suggesting.i understand you want the flavor but im bored of playing the same build everywhere and not being needed \ wanted in most content.

Now if you can design a martial artist with access to AoEs i might change my mind.

[Arctarius.2649]

@anduriell.6280 said:what thief needs is some sort of support AoE spec, it already has too much of melee single target not what you are suggesting.i understand you want the flavor but im bored of playing the same build everywhere and not being needed \ wanted in most content.

Now if you can design a martial artist with access to AoEs i might change my mind.

The whole purpose of the thief class is to deal damage, to be slippery and have fun new ways of dealing with foes. No one wants a healing spec for thief, I saw you make this same comment on someone else’s idea and it’s a terrible one. None of its alternate specs are capable of supporting an effective support build besides shadow arts and even then, other classes will always outplay thief in the realm of support. It’s just not the thing this class does, and if anet makes a support spec. You can say goodbye to the class as a whole.

[Kodama.6453]

@Arctarius.2649 said:

@anduriell.6280 said:what thief needs is some sort of support AoE spec, it already has too much of melee single target not what you are suggesting.i understand you want the flavor but im bored of playing the same build everywhere and not being needed \ wanted in most content.

Now if you can design a martial artist with access to AoEs i might change my mind.

The whole purpose of the thief class is to deal damage, to be slippery and have fun new ways of dealing with foes. No one wants a healing spec for thief, I saw you make this same comment on someone else’s idea and it’s a terrible one. None of its alternate specs are capable of supporting an effective support build besides shadow arts and even then, other classes will always outplay thief in the realm of support. It’s just not the thing this class does, and if anet makes a support spec. You can say goodbye to the class as a whole.

Thief, as every other class, has support options in core.It's just that these options are not enough to make it a viable healing support.

Ranger has been in the same boat before druid, necromancer was the same before scourge.A new elite spec can make thief an actual healer.And Anet has set themselves the goal that every class should be able to perform every trinity role in the end (tank, dps, support).

Thief already has the dps spec (deadeye) and the tank spec (daredevil), what is missing is the support spec to make them viable support.You might not want to play a thief as a supportive healer, but that doesn't mean no one wants to.

[Astyrah.4015]

@Kodama.6453 said:Thief already has the dps spec (deadeye) and the tank spec (daredevil), what is missing is the support spec to make them viable support.

in pve, daredevil isnt even viable as a tank at best it can just sustain itself via self-heals but in no way can it effectively tank for others. in many cases, daredevil and deadeye are both DPS specs and both lean towards power dps in pve (though you can build for condition damage in pvp)

what thief is missing: a viable pve condition-damage spec (like how mirage was for mesmers), an aoe/largehitbox oriented dps spec, and a supportive spec (doesn't really have to be a healer, can be something like alacrity renegade -- that would also make us wanted in groups).

@Kodama.6453 said:You might not want to play a thief as a supportive healer, but that doesn't mean no one wants to.

it goes both ways actually, it doesn't mean that you and a chunk of the playerbase wanting a healer thief that there isn't anyone from the playerbase who wants another DPS spec (just in a different flavour to DD and DE - condi, aoe, etc.)

---

personally i wont mind come the new expansion... whatever thief gets, the community would just live with it.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Arctarius.2649 said:

@anduriell.6280 said:what thief needs is some sort of support AoE spec, it already has too much of melee single target not what you are suggesting.i understand you want the flavor but im bored of playing the same build everywhere and not being needed \ wanted in most content.

Now if you can design a martial artist with access to AoEs i might change my mind.

The whole purpose of the thief class is to deal damage, to be slippery and have fun new ways of dealing with foes. No one wants a healing spec for thief, I saw you make this same comment on someone else’s idea and it’s a terrible one. None of its alternate specs are capable of supporting an effective support build besides shadow arts and even then, other classes will always outplay thief in the realm of support. It’s just not the thing this class does, and if anet makes a support spec. You can say goodbye to the class as a whole.

Thief, as every other class, has support options in core.It's just that these options are not enough to make it a viable healing support.

Ranger has been in the same boat before druid, necromancer was the same before scourge.A new elite spec

can

make thief an actual healer.And Anet has set themselves the goal that every class should be able to perform every trinity role in the end (tank, dps, support).

Thief already has the dps spec (deadeye) and the tank spec (daredevil), what is missing is the support spec to make them viable support.

You

might not want to play a thief as a supportive healer, but that doesn't mean no one wants to.Regardless of elite or build thief always feels like thief, to make a espec a support spec that's both viable and still feels like thief would be difficult and I assure u anets team won't achieve this. A support spec for thief would end up being a huge waste, waste of anets time and a waste for thief players as thier shiny new espec which could have added much needed new flavor would end up unviable and unused by the majority of thief players. Nobody chose thief outa all the class to play a support role, nor will it ever be viable as one as its core design isn't designed well for support.

[Ragebru.1397]

@Arctarius.2649 said:

@anduriell.6280 said:what thief needs is some sort of support AoE spec, it already has too much of melee single target not what you are suggesting.i understand you want the flavor but im bored of playing the same build everywhere and not being needed \ wanted in most content.

Now if you can design a martial artist with access to AoEs i might change my mind.

The whole purpose of the thief class is to deal damage, to be slippery and have fun new ways of dealing with foes. No one wants a healing spec for thief, I saw you make this same comment on someone else’s idea and it’s a terrible one. None of its alternate specs are capable of supporting an effective support build besides shadow arts and even then, other classes will always outplay thief in the realm of support. It’s just not the thing this class does, and if anet makes a support spec. You can say goodbye to the class as a whole.

I don't think that's entirely accurate. My favor support is shout/soldiers focus warrior. I'm not able to pull the ~1mil heals in pvp like i can on my tempest, but it still pushes into the 400-600k range. I think every class should have a viable condi, power, and support role. It makes for better diversity, and allows gear to translate better between alts.

[MrForz.1953]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Arctarius.2649 said:

@anduriell.6280 said:what thief needs is some sort of support AoE spec, it already has too much of melee single target not what you are suggesting.i understand you want the flavor but im bored of playing the same build everywhere and not being needed \ wanted in most content.

Now if you can design a martial artist with access to AoEs i might change my mind.

The whole purpose of the thief class is to deal damage, to be slippery and have fun new ways of dealing with foes. No one wants a healing spec for thief, I saw you make this same comment on someone else’s idea and it’s a terrible one. None of its alternate specs are capable of supporting an effective support build besides shadow arts and even then, other classes will always outplay thief in the realm of support. It’s just not the thing this class does, and if anet makes a support spec. You can say goodbye to the class as a whole.

Thief, as every other class, has support options in core.It's just that these options are not enough to make it a viable healing support.

Ranger has been in the same boat before druid, necromancer was the same before scourge.A new elite spec

can

make thief an actual healer.And Anet has set themselves the goal that every class should be able to perform every trinity role in the end (tank, dps, support).

Thief already has the dps spec (deadeye) and the tank spec (daredevil), what is missing is the support spec to make them viable support.

You

might not want to play a thief as a supportive healer, but that doesn't mean no one wants to.Regardless of elite or build thief always feels like thief, to make a espec a support spec that's both viable and still feels like thief would be difficult and I assure u anets team won't achieve this. A support spec for thief would end up being a huge waste, waste of anets time and a waste for thief players as thier shiny new espec which could have added much needed new flavor would end up unviable and unused by the majority of thief players. Nobody chose thief outa all the class to play a support role, nor will it ever be viable as one as its core design isn't designed well for support.

Honestly, I could almost be interested in supporting with a thief, the smuggler type or the ninja in the backstage. But realistically speaking, if you don't fart all possible boons at a 100% uptime it's considered worthless, and that's clearly not a thief thing to do.

Support in general in this game tends to have bloated conceptions, it would be fine if the values didn't almost match that bloat and since there's only one way to deal with content, well, there's only one way to support through said content when a spec is fully dedicated to being a support. I... despise it really.

[Arctarius.2649]

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Arctarius.2649 said:

@anduriell.6280 said:what thief needs is some sort of support AoE spec, it already has too much of melee single target not what you are suggesting.i understand you want the flavor but im bored of playing the same build everywhere and not being needed \ wanted in most content.

Now if you can design a martial artist with access to AoEs i might change my mind.

The whole purpose of the thief class is to deal damage, to be slippery and have fun new ways of dealing with foes. No one wants a healing spec for thief, I saw you make this same comment on someone else’s idea and it’s a terrible one. None of its alternate specs are capable of supporting an effective support build besides shadow arts and even then, other classes will always outplay thief in the realm of support. It’s just not the thing this class does, and if anet makes a support spec. You can say goodbye to the class as a whole.

Thief, as every other class, has support options in core.It's just that these options are not enough to make it a viable healing support.

Ranger has been in the same boat before druid, necromancer was the same before scourge.A new elite spec

can

make thief an actual healer.And Anet has set themselves the goal that every class should be able to perform every trinity role in the end (tank, dps, support).

Thief already has the dps spec (deadeye) and the tank spec (daredevil), what is missing is the support spec to make them viable support.

You

might not want to play a thief as a supportive healer, but that doesn't mean no one wants to.

Alright let me stop you right there.. calling daredevil a tank is funny joke and simply tells me you never played thief. What I am suggesting COULD actually fill a tangy role however. A blocking build that utilizes stealth on a different way rather than actually granting stealth (like the Qi shield I suggested) could actually function as a tank class. But no, daredevil is faaaaaaar from that. Having 3 dodges and then getting annihilated is not being tanky. They are still glass canon burst specs which I am totally fine with. But as far as giving all classes the “trinity” please give me this reference I would love to see it. Anet never said they need to do this. Unless they really want allot of thief players to quit, I don’t see them adding a shadow stepping healer spec to the game..

[Arctarius.2649]

@Astyrah.4015 said:

@Kodama.6453 said:Thief already has the dps spec (deadeye) and the tank spec (daredevil), what is missing is the support spec to make them viable support.

in pve, daredevil isnt even viable as a tank at best it can just sustain itself via self-heals but in no way can it effectively tank for others. in many cases, daredevil and deadeye are both DPS specs and both lean towards power dps in pve (though you can build for condition damage in pvp)

what thief is missing: a viable pve condition-damage spec (like how mirage was for mesmers), an aoe/largehitbox oriented dps spec, and a supportive spec (doesn't really have to be a healer, can be something like alacrity renegade -- that would also make us wanted in groups).

@Kodama.6453 said:

You

might not want to play a thief as a supportive healer, but that doesn't mean no one wants to.

it goes both ways actually, it doesn't mean that you and a chunk of the playerbase wanting a healer thief that there isn't anyone from the playerbase who wants another DPS spec (just in a different flavour to DD and DE - condi, aoe, etc.)

---

personally i wont mind come the new expansion... whatever thief gets, the community would just live with it.

I like this suggestion too, a condi roll can be cool. But if they did go this rout that would mean a poison utilizing thief and Probly go down the rout of the assassin asthetic, definitely not my cup of tea but I know allot of thief players would love that. I suppose I would just be very sad to see thief never get a cool actual martial artist spec, simply because if they were ever to actually implement it, this would have to be the time while we are headed into a far eastern themed expac. It just won’t make sense any other time. And I would be soooo sad to just see them get somthing as bland and generic as “assassin” when that’s practically what a thief is anyway. Like literally since launch..

[Kodama.6453]

@Arctarius.2649 said:

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Arctarius.2649 said:

@anduriell.6280 said:what thief needs is some sort of support AoE spec, it already has too much of melee single target not what you are suggesting.i understand you want the flavor but im bored of playing the same build everywhere and not being needed \ wanted in most content.

Now if you can design a martial artist with access to AoEs i might change my mind.

The whole purpose of the thief class is to deal damage, to be slippery and have fun new ways of dealing with foes. No one wants a healing spec for thief, I saw you make this same comment on someone else’s idea and it’s a terrible one. None of its alternate specs are capable of supporting an effective support build besides shadow arts and even then, other classes will always outplay thief in the realm of support. It’s just not the thing this class does, and if anet makes a support spec. You can say goodbye to the class as a whole.

Thief, as every other class, has support options in core.It's just that these options are not enough to make it a viable healing support.

Ranger has been in the same boat before druid, necromancer was the same before scourge.A new elite spec

can

make thief an actual healer.And Anet has set themselves the goal that every class should be able to perform every trinity role in the end (tank, dps, support).

Thief already has the dps spec (deadeye) and the tank spec (daredevil), what is missing is the support spec to make them viable support.

You

might not want to play a thief as a supportive healer, but that doesn't mean no one wants to.

Alright let me stop you right there.. calling daredevil a tank is funny joke and simply tells me you never played thief. What I am suggesting COULD actually fill a tangy role however. A blocking build that utilizes stealth on a different way rather than actually granting stealth (like the Qi shield I suggested) could actually function as a tank class. But no, daredevil is faaaaaaar from that. Having 3 dodges and then getting annihilated is not being tanky. They are still glass canon burst specs which I am totally fine with. But as far as giving all classes the “trinity” please give me this reference I would love to see it. Anet never said they need to do this. Unless they really want allot of thief players to quit, I don’t see them adding a shadow stepping healer spec to the game..

Daredevil is the tank spec for thief (Anet uses the term bruiser instead), it has way more survivability added than core thief. Additional dodges, additional sources to gain endurance, they even added a block to the utility skills. Staff as a weapon is also loaded with defensive mechanics: reflec on auto attack, applying weakness (which is enhanced by the trait line, since daredevil takes less damage from weakened foes), AoE blind, 2 evade skills.

If you are building for it, then you definitely can be a tank. But at the same time, anet tried to create a tank that is fitting the thief's base thematics. Instead of a big mountain of flesh that is constantly blocking, you get a spec that is constantly evading damage through dodges, that is their tank mechanic. You won't die if you don't get hit in the end. But daredevil is mostly used as a damage spec, but now you gotta ask yourself why.

The reason is the design of the game. A tank is just not needed in the game. Look at PvE, where do you need a tank there? Mostly just raids and you only need one there, which is mostly filled with the most effective tank that people can provide.

And if a tank is not needed but you are designed as a tank spec, then these specs will migrate into other playstyles to find any use.The same thing happens with other bruiser specs, which are scrapper and spellbreaker, for example. Spellbreaker is also used in dps builds, even if it is designed as a tanky spec (that even uses the counter attack mechanic you are suggesting here). Scrapper is oftenly used in support builds, since their function gyro and gyro utility skills are able to support a group and engineer lacks a proper support elite spec.

Scrapper even goes as far as having to accept that it's grandmaster minor trait (impact savant) is dead, since in support builds you are camping med kit to heal and therefore you deal no damage.

That is the dilemma here. Daredevil is designed to be thief's tank spec in a game that does not require tanks.

[Astyrah.4015]

@"Arctarius.2649" said:a condi roll can be cool

a brawler/martial artist can be sort-of (but not really) a condi-dps type too. jabs and strikes to certain weak points/vital points can induce internal bleeding if done with intent and enough power (for example see: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2579477/ ) as for how it can translate to GW2 or how to make it unique i am not sure. but bleeding, weakness, torment, and vulnerability are all something that would translate to GW2 from IRL martial arts fighting (with the intent to injure/harm your opponent rather than spar/compete for match)

[Arctarius.2649]

That is the dilemma here. Daredevil is designed to be thief's tank spec in a game that does not require tanks.

I still have to disagree with you man. As someone who raids two days weekly and plays a tank, I think there is plenty of room for more options. I never said I want a “flesh wall” tank as you put it, I want a thief who utilizes blocking and timed counters To fill a replacement endurance bar with Chi that can be expelled for X effect. I simply said if anet wanted to they CAN make a thief tank and I feel it would be better received than a healing one. It is thematically unfitting one the greatest sense. Taking the assassin / martial artist /acrobatic arctype and making it heal is a horrible clash of roles. Not only that but as stated earlier I still don’t think they have reliable ways of going about support with their current t traits and un Elite specced utilities. Ranger had far more support in their utility and traits prior to Druid releasing simply compounding and making for a nice synergetic specialization. Thief won’t have that, it will get an ugly mesh of traits and utilities, forcing it to rely almost entirely on what the new elite brings it and that sounds awful.

[Arctarius.2649]

IRL martial arts fighting (with the intent to injure/harm your opponent rather than spar/compete for match)

Yeah I guess your right, that is a possibility. I mean regardless of the damage type they receive, I would play the crap out of it if it’s themed that way. But I have the weirdest feeling that Warrior is gunna get what I’m hoping for thief to receive.

[Kodama.6453]

@"Arctarius.2649" said:

That is the dilemma here. Daredevil is designed to be thief's tank spec in a game that does not require tanks.

I still have to disagree with you man. As someone who raids two days weekly and plays a tank, I think there is plenty of room for more options. I never said I want a “flesh wall” tank as you put it, I want a thief who utilizes blocking and timed counters To fill a replacement endurance bar with Chi that can be expelled for X effect. I simply said if anet wanted to they CAN make a thief tank and I feel it would be better received than a healing one. It is thematically unfitting one the greatest sense. Taking the assassin / martial artist /acrobatic arctype and making it heal is a horrible clash of roles. Not only that but as stated earlier I still don’t think they have reliable ways of going about support with their current t traits and un Elite specced utilities. Ranger had far more support in their utility and traits prior to Druid releasing simply compounding and making for a nice synergetic specialization. Thief won’t have that, it will get an ugly mesh of traits and utilities, forcing it to rely almost entirely on what the new elite brings it and that sounds awful.

But the "blocking and timed counters" elite spec is already there. It is spellbreaker.

I get that this is a thematic you would have enjoyed for your thief, but I don't think this will happen. I would have also liked to get the sniper thematic on my engineer, but Anet gave it to thief with deadeye. That's just how it is.