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No, HoT should not be further nerfed. It is not meant to be the regular power fantasy.


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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Croc.1978" said:Yes, difficulty in HoT is fine as it is.

That said, there's really nothing that prepares players for what awaits them in the green hell before they enter it. They probably intended Silverwastes to be that preparation, but it doesn't work. And nerfing Orr post-release was a mistake.

I guess the best advise you could give new players now is:
  • play Orr
  • play Silverwastes (not RIBA) for a while
  • start PoF and get at least Raptor with canyon jump
  • enter Verdant Brink

as a relatively new player to GW2 i wish i was told this way earlier. Orr was a bit of a pain (mostly beacuse the amount of mobs packed litterly everywhere) but it was atleast doable even if i never want to repeat that storyline again. Then i head into HoT since i didnt have the living world seasons and all i can say its not been a fun ride. Everything from HP being either 1 mile above or under you, or in a cave somewhere to mobs ripping you apart or knocking you off platforms. continue with the story and it doesnt really get any better when you get to the maze for example that 1 shots you if you arent quick enought. Dont get me wrong, i dont mind a challenge but HoT so far have been frustrating from start to finish, its not something i want to repeat again which is a shame beacuse i do like storybased games. but unless you play something with a personal tank like ranger or full plate armor with full exotics, its not going to be a fun experience. I dont expect to be powerful but HoT have taken it a bit too far sadly this have lead to im taking a break from the game beacuse i just get frustrated when im supposed to have fun. I know that i dont play perfect but the difficulty spike truly is off the charts if you compare it with the base game.

Yes and if you think Orr now was a pain thats nothing compared how it was at release before the nerfs.

Orr was never "hard", just "annoying". Orr was a pain on release because most mobs had CC abilities, cripple, immobilize, pull, chill and inflated health pools, but Orr mobs don't do much damage. You can kill any normal Risen mob only with auto-attacks, without ever dodging, using blue/green gear, that's how low their damage is. But since it takes quite a while to kill them with blue gear, they used to pile up quickly and combined with their higher density it made Orr a considerable slog to move through.

To me Orr at release felt both hard and annoying. Annoying because of the things you mentioned and hard because you could easily be overwhelmed if you were not careful about what you aggroed (was playing melee Warrior).

I remember very well my first time on the "wrong" side of the Straits. I found myself there all alone, with large groups of Risen in every direction around me, ready to kick my ass. Really scared the shit out of me. On the other hand, one adapts to circumstances. And a few weeks later I was doing daily Orichalcum gathering runs in Cursed Shore without much worry.

I guess the best advise you could give new players now is:
  • play Orr
  • play Silverwastes (not RIBA) for a while
  • start PoF and get at least Raptor with canyon jump
  • enter Verdant Brink

Silverwastes mobs were destroyed with the release of HOT, which is really puzzling all things considered. Why make the content that leads to the expansion significantly easier when you release the expansion?

Didn't know that since I was not around when HoT released. Oh my, so many mistakes by ANet.

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@zealex.9410 said:

@Dante.1508 said:Hot is not "easy to solo" gliders and mounts help a lot.. try soloing without them.. New customers have to.. Classes are so unbalanced a Engi, Necro and a Guardian can storm through the maps while Warrior, Ele and Mesmer get killed every second.. Even Rangers and Revenants have some issues..

No you aren't right op.. sorry but you are very wrong.. you are a niche in this game.

@Cerioth.7062 said:Honestly most of the issues described here would be fixed by introducing better core game tutorialization that forces you to learn your abilities and counter mobs.Perhaps, so, but I don't really like things that are 'forced'. /shrug

Why even bother playing the game if you do not want to learn its mechanics? How is the game going to make you learn gameplay if you can indefinitely avoid it?

Obviously it does not have to be a per character thing, can just be once per account thing that you can repeat as needed.

Its not the mechanics to learn i'm on 250ping as an Aussie and hot is inundated with cheap shot mechanics designed to bully customers to death.. not fun in the slightest to play.. Even as an 8 year vet i try to avoid Hot and i've only ever completed pof once.. its just not a fun aspect to deal with daily..

@Croc.1978 said:Yes, difficulty in HoT is fine as it is.

That said, there's really nothing that prepares players for what awaits them in the green hell before they enter it. They probably intended Silverwastes to be that preparation, but it doesn't work. And nerfing Orr post-release was a mistake.

I guess the best advise you could give new players now is:
  • play Orr
  • play Silverwastes (not RIBA) for a while
  • start PoF and get at least Raptor with canyon jump
  • enter Verdant Brink

I think the best advice is toncomplete pof and play hot as a prequel.

That wont help you need minimum Glider, Bunny and a Flying mount to avoid a good chunk of deaths..

I have played through that same content with high ping as well, and do not feel bullied in the slightest. I also have a plenty of 300 ping AUS and asian friends who do not struggle with the content.

You dont need flying mount or glider in pof.

Eh? Confused as to how this is relevant to anything. You indeed do not need those for PoF. Nor mounts for HoT.

@Dante.1508 said:Hot is not "easy to solo" gliders and mounts help a lot.. try soloing without them.. New customers have to.. Classes are so unbalanced a Engi, Necro and a Guardian can storm through the maps while Warrior, Ele and Mesmer get killed every second.. Even Rangers and Revenants have some issues..

No you aren't right op.. sorry but you are very wrong.. you are a niche in this game.

@Cerioth.7062 said:Honestly most of the issues described here would be fixed by introducing better core game tutorialization that forces you to learn your abilities and counter mobs.Perhaps, so, but I don't really like things that are 'forced'. /shrug

Why even bother playing the game if you do not want to learn its mechanics? How is the game going to make you learn gameplay if you can indefinitely avoid it?

Obviously it does not have to be a per character thing, can just be once per account thing that you can repeat as needed.

Its not the mechanics to learn i'm on 250ping as an Aussie and hot is inundated with cheap shot mechanics designed to bully customers to death.. not fun in the slightest to play.. Even as an 8 year vet i try to avoid Hot and i've only ever completed pof once.. its just not a fun aspect to deal with daily..

@Croc.1978 said:Yes, difficulty in HoT is fine as it is.

That said, there's really nothing that prepares players for what awaits them in the green hell before they enter it. They probably intended Silverwastes to be that preparation, but it doesn't work. And nerfing Orr post-release was a mistake.

I guess the best advise you could give new players now is:
  • play Orr
  • play Silverwastes (not RIBA) for a while
  • start PoF and get at least Raptor with canyon jump
  • enter Verdant Brink

I think the best advice is toncomplete pof and play hot as a prequel.

That wont help you need minimum Glider, Bunny and a Flying mount to avoid a good chunk of deaths..

I have played through that same content with high ping as well, and do not feel bullied in the slightest. I also have a plenty of 300 ping AUS and asian friends who do not struggle with the content.

Great and i have a lot that say otherwise. we go round and around.. even yesterday i saw customers angry an frustrated in hot.. that isn't good gaming imo. Also i don't know if it was my time zone but for me Tangled Depths was beyond empty mostly.. not even events.

Then perhaps it is time for all these individuals to look into what they can do in order to improve their own gameplay, instead of demanding for content to be nerfed.

Someone someone suggested that you need to get the raptor so you should do the first part of pof before hot which to me seeks weird. You want to have some kind of narrative structure so doing 1 part of pof going back to hot and then going back to pof to finish it seems weird to me.

It is indeed weird. But I think it's the best way we have to get new players accustomed to HoT's difficulty and keep them from getting frustrated, quitting the game and/or creating threads like the "Dark Souls" one. That's why I suggested it, narrative structure be damned.

Sure, in a perfect world ANet themselves would fix the problem by adapting the (pre-HoT) content. But let's be honest here - that train has left the station. At the current point of the game's life, they will not commit anymore development resources to those things.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"AliamRationem.5172" said:I'm not sure I agree that the only issue with PoF is the aggro range. Take that away and change nothing else and you'll still have huge, empty maps with not much going on. Apparently, that's what some players enjoy, but I think the persistent activity of the HoT maps is evidence that players enjoy that sort of group activity.It's not just about that. HoT maps weren't doing all that well either until Anet significantly increased rewards all over, instead of condensing everything just to the last map meta and until difficulty of some metas (like Gerent) got nerfed.

PoF not only does not have a good level of intermediate rewards, but is severely lacking in the very rewarding big event chains. HoT metas, as they are now, do not require from players all that much, and are still very rewarding. PoF metas on the other hand are either non-existent, or offer poor rewards while requiring a lot of effort and engagement (see Serpent's Ire). There were some metas added later, in LS4, that had a "good" (according to many players) effort to rewards ratio - and those were
very
popular. Too bad Anet didn't use any experience from this to improve the situation of main PoF maps.

It seems they are contempt now with players mostly going to PoF maps to do story missions/collections, unlock mounts, get easy HPs etc. If people did metas there all day long, it would certainly not improve the lag issues we already have.

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@"Croc.1978" said:On the other hand, one adapts to circumstances.

Orr mobs were actually buffed later on. They added the Risen Nobles that deal high amounts of damage (probably the highest damage potential of all mobs in Orr) with their shadow teleport skill that creates a symbol, and then they also changed how Risen Drakes work, leaving pools of poison behind them when they charge. Both abilities weren't available on release. Anyway, everyone remembers the "nerf of Orr" but maybe forgot the "buff of Orr".

Didn't know that since I was not around when HoT released. Oh my, so many mistakes by ANet.

And the debuffs were massive.

Dry Top mob:Beetles used to be immune to damage from the front as well. You had to either let them charge, avoid the charge, hit them from behind, or use a hard CC skill, in which case they fall over and flip, making them completely vulnerable. Anet removed that immunity.

Silverwastes/Dry Top:Mordrem Thrashers used to be immune to damage unless you hit them from behind, and they leave a poison/torment/cripple field behind them while spinning. They simply removed the immunity

Mordrem Wolves could buff themselves with retaliation, that hit for rather high damage, instantly killing players that attacked multiple times. Anet removed the retaliation and added swiftness instead. So the Wolf spends 1 second cast time skill to get swiftness. Moreover, Wolves could do triple damage when hitting a player from either back or the sides (flanking), Anet removed that triple damage when hitting from flanking, now Wolves just tickle from all sides

Those are some of the changes they did with the launch of HOT.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Croc.1978" said:On the other hand, one adapts to circumstances.

Orr mobs were actually buffed later on. They added the Risen Nobles that deal high amounts of damage (probably the highest damage potential of all mobs in Orr) with their shadow teleport skill that creates a symbol, and then they also changed how Risen Drakes work, leaving pools of poison behind them when they charge. Both abilities weren't available on release. Anyway, everyone remembers the "nerf of Orr" but maybe forgot the "buff of Orr".

Interesting. From my memory the numbers of the Risen in Orr maps were much higher at release though. But my memory could be mistaken.

BTW, do you happen to know what's the deal with Champion Risen Knights? Their ground AoE does rather ordinary damage for a while and then suddenly it spikes you for 20k - 30k. I can't remember that obvious bug being there when the game released.

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@Croc.1978 said:

@Croc.1978 said:On the other hand, one adapts to circumstances.

Orr mobs were actually buffed later on. They added the Risen Nobles that deal high amounts of damage (probably the highest damage potential of all mobs in Orr) with their shadow teleport skill that creates a symbol, and then they also changed how Risen Drakes work, leaving pools of poison behind them when they charge. Both abilities weren't available on release. Anyway, everyone remembers the "nerf of Orr" but maybe forgot the "buff of Orr".

Interesting. From my memory the numbers of the Risen in Orr maps were much higher at release though. But my memory could be mistaken.

BTW, do you happen to know what's the deal with Champion Risen Knights? Their ground AoE does rather ordinary damage for a while and then suddenly it spikes you for 20k - 30k. I can't remember that obvious bug being there when the game released.

I spend very little time in the core game, but if those are the flying undead guys I think they move toward their target dropping multiple circles. If the circles stack on where you're standing you can be hit by multiple at once.

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I do agree that the shift from previous maps to HoT maps is too much of a jump for new players. I disagree with the "Promoting playing together." and I will explain why.

My very first time entering Verdant Brink, I was met with a map where gliding is essential. Yet you had to fill the xp bar FIRST before you could glide.So I ran down the sloap to start earning XP, just to find 2 squads of pocket raptors and a smokescale together on my path, killing me pretty much instantly.

Secondly I came there during the nightime bosses. Another flawed design.I had NO gliding no nothing, so was 100% unable to help (they were on the wyvern matriach) and I got the "friendly" request to return later so their "friends" could enter the apparantly full map that did have gliding to help out.WHAT????

The problem with these maps is not the strength of the enemies, it's the fact that you are "forced" to seek help.It suddenly is no longer an option but mandatory. Even for something as simple as Map Completion, you REQUIRE help.NO!

Bad design, bad concept, that was RECOGNIZED luckely (considering the later maps can all be completed solo, where events DO encourage teamplay.)HoT does not encourage teamplayit FORCES teamplay. And that, by it's very nature, is a poor design decision.

Today, I only enter the maps with my 2 toons that I KNOW can solo most content and can get Map Completion without me REQUIRING help.(on that remark: It does require me to BUY the hero points)

I prefer teamplay to ALWAYS be optional.

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@Croc.1978 said:

@Croc.1978 said:On the other hand, one adapts to circumstances.

Orr mobs were actually buffed later on. They added the Risen Nobles that deal high amounts of damage (probably the highest damage potential of all mobs in Orr) with their shadow teleport skill that creates a symbol, and then they also changed how Risen Drakes work, leaving pools of poison behind them when they charge. Both abilities weren't available on release. Anyway, everyone remembers the "nerf of Orr" but maybe forgot the "buff of Orr".

Interesting. From my memory the numbers of the Risen in Orr maps were much higher at release though. But my memory could be mistaken.Yes, they were. And the killed mobs respawned much faster. So, while it is indeed true that some of the Orrian mobs nowadays are stronger than was usual initially, that's true only when you compare them on 1:1 basis. With the much greater mob density and faster respawn originally Orr was way more annoying place than after the changes. The buffs maddoctor speaks of did not come even close to offsetting the main nerfs.
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@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@Croc.1978 said:On the other hand, one adapts to circumstances.

Orr mobs were actually buffed later on. They added the Risen Nobles that deal high amounts of damage (probably the highest damage potential of all mobs in Orr) with their shadow teleport skill that creates a symbol, and then they also changed how Risen Drakes work, leaving pools of poison behind them when they charge. Both abilities weren't available on release. Anyway, everyone remembers the "nerf of Orr" but maybe forgot the "buff of Orr".

Interesting. From my memory the numbers of the Risen in Orr maps were much higher at release though. But my memory could be mistaken.

BTW, do you happen to know what's the deal with Champion Risen Knights? Their ground AoE does rather ordinary damage for a while and then suddenly it spikes you for 20k - 30k. I can't remember that obvious bug being there when the game released.

I spend very little time in the core game, but if those are the flying undead guys I think they move toward their target dropping multiple circles. If the circles stack on where you're standing you can be hit by multiple at once.

OK, but that doesn't really explain the extreme spike (yes, those are the flying guys). I've fought them with 25k health, 3k armour and 12% damage reduction and got insta-downed by a single pulse from almost full health. Happened to me twice.

I guess I will try to reproduce it to check the combat log afterwards.

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@"Tuna Bandit.3786" said:I do agree that the shift from previous maps to HoT maps is too much of a jump for new players. I disagree with the "Promoting playing together." and I will explain why.

My very first time entering Verdant Brink, I was met with a map where gliding is essential. Yet you had to fill the xp bar FIRST before you could glide.So I ran down the sloap to start earning XP, just to find 2 squads of pocket raptors and a smokescale together on my path, killing me pretty much instantly.

Secondly I came there during the nightime bosses. Another flawed design.I had NO gliding no nothing, so was 100% unable to help (they were on the wyvern matriach) and I got the "friendly" request to return later so their "friends" could enter the apparantly full map that did have gliding to help out.WHAT????

The problem with these maps is not the strength of the enemies, it's the fact that you are "forced" to seek help.It suddenly is no longer an option but mandatory. Even for something as simple as Map Completion, you REQUIRE help.NO!

Bad design, bad concept, that was RECOGNIZED luckely (considering the later maps can all be completed solo, where events DO encourage teamplay.)HoT does not encourage teamplayit FORCES teamplay. And that, by it's very nature, is a poor design decision.

Today, I only enter the maps with my 2 toons that I KNOW can solo most content and can get Map Completion without me REQUIRING help.(on that remark: It does require me to BUY the hero points)

I prefer teamplay to ALWAYS be optional.

FYI the night meta only requires gliding for one of the five bosses. You can reach the bosses by taking the chopper up from a controlled camp. Camps are mostly reached on foot (although masteries obviously help!).

Is that obvious to a player their first time playing on the map? Probably not. But that's why you play and learn as you go. You need to fill that bar somehow, right?

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@Croc.1978 said:

@Croc.1978 said:On the other hand, one adapts to circumstances.

Orr mobs were actually buffed later on. They added the Risen Nobles that deal high amounts of damage (probably the highest damage potential of all mobs in Orr) with their shadow teleport skill that creates a symbol, and then they also changed how Risen Drakes work, leaving pools of poison behind them when they charge. Both abilities weren't available on release. Anyway, everyone remembers the "nerf of Orr" but maybe forgot the "buff of Orr".

Interesting. From my memory the numbers of the Risen in Orr maps were much higher at release though. But my memory could be mistaken.

BTW, do you happen to know what's the deal with Champion Risen Knights? Their ground AoE does rather ordinary damage for a while and then suddenly it spikes you for 20k - 30k. I can't remember that obvious bug being there when the game released.

I spend very little time in the core game, but if those are the flying undead guys I think they move toward their target dropping multiple circles. If the circles stack on where you're standing you can be hit by multiple at once.

OK, but that doesn't really explain the extreme spike (yes, those are the flying guys). I've fought them with 25k health, 3k armour and 12% damage reduction and got insta-downed by a single pulse from almost full health. Happened to me twice.

I guess I will try to reproduce it to check the combat log afterwards.

If enough of those circles pile up and strike at the same time it could appear to happen instantly or in 1 hit.

This is a problem on bandit champions that throw those little torches, too. They throw more of them if there are more targets, but if those targets are stacked...look out!

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@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@Dante.1508 said:Hot is not "easy to solo" gliders and mounts help a lot.. try soloing without them.. New customers have to.. Classes are so unbalanced a Engi, Necro and a Guardian can storm through the maps while Warrior, Ele and Mesmer get killed every second.. Even Rangers and Revenants have some issues..

No you aren't right op.. sorry but you are very wrong.. you are a niche in this game.

@Cerioth.7062 said:Honestly most of the issues described here would be fixed by introducing better core game tutorialization that forces you to learn your abilities and counter mobs.Perhaps, so, but I don't really like things that are 'forced'. /shrug

Why even bother playing the game if you do not want to learn its mechanics? How is the game going to make you learn gameplay if you can indefinitely avoid it?

Obviously it does not have to be a per character thing, can just be once per account thing that you can repeat as needed.

Its not the mechanics to learn i'm on 250ping as an Aussie and hot is inundated with cheap shot mechanics designed to bully customers to death.. not fun in the slightest to play.. Even as an 8 year vet i try to avoid Hot and i've only ever completed pof once.. its just not a fun aspect to deal with daily..

@Croc.1978 said:Yes, difficulty in HoT is fine as it is.

That said, there's really nothing that prepares players for what awaits them in the green hell before they enter it. They probably intended Silverwastes to be that preparation, but it doesn't work. And nerfing Orr post-release was a mistake.

I guess the best advise you could give new players now is:
  • play Orr
  • play Silverwastes (not RIBA) for a while
  • start PoF and get at least Raptor with canyon jump
  • enter Verdant Brink

I think the best advice is toncomplete pof and play hot as a prequel.

That wont help you need minimum Glider, Bunny and a Flying mount to avoid a good chunk of deaths..

In case anyone was actually planning to listen to this guy, let me just save you the trouble with this video of an HoT champion solo that anyone (even Dante here!) can do. As a bonus, I'm wearing green gear that costs about 2s per piece so anyone can afford it. I've also slotted all signets for utilities and no weapon swap to avoid any complications. You can literally just push buttons at random with this build and win. The only thing that matters is pushing dodge and auto attack over and over.

Seriously, Dante, do yourself a favor and try this. You might begin to realize what people are trying to tell you and what you never could have learned playing through content once and then complaining about it endlessly for years. Find a build that works. This one happens to work even if you don't want to!

I can pass that one.. i noticed you used stave mesmer not greatsword? did you try elementalist? also try the tengu or vinetooth.. try the chak and rolling thing.. You cherry pick a relatively easy one and say Hot is doable.. Try soloing Tangled depths hero points i soloed about 2 in that map.. the rest obliterated me.

Lets see you do Balthazar solo.

Sure thing, chief.

I bet those aren't you, and those are half a year ago.. before a lot of changes especially the mushroom it was in Jan, but kudos to those players, i wish i had ping times to rival those players..

Here you go, Dante. Links to my youtube channel and the forum threads I've maintained for years focusing on open world builds for mesmer and elementalist, including variants designed to help players who struggle with expansion/story content but aren't mechanically inclined. If my Balthazar solo isn't current enough for you, perhaps you'd care to watch my VB night meta boss trio solo from 3 weeks ago?

In any event, if you need help with hero points in HoT I regularly assist other players with that. I don't like to lead big squads, so it would just be you and me. Quicker that way, since we don't have to wait for stragglers and I can solo the champs down in about a minute. You'd get some hero points pain-free and see for yourself what elementalist is capable of in open world!

I usually just wait for HP trains myself.. but thanks either way, I'm on Sea of Sorrows so i doubt we are in the same server. Well done on those HPs, again i wish i had your ping times, i feel i'd solo a lot more, but being 250-400ish ping i don't have most chances.

@zealex.9410 said:

@Dante.1508 said:Hot is not "easy to solo" gliders and mounts help a lot.. try soloing without them.. New customers have to.. Classes are so unbalanced a Engi, Necro and a Guardian can storm through the maps while Warrior, Ele and Mesmer get killed every second.. Even Rangers and Revenants have some issues..

No you aren't right op.. sorry but you are very wrong.. you are a niche in this game.

@Cerioth.7062 said:Honestly most of the issues described here would be fixed by introducing better core game tutorialization that forces you to learn your abilities and counter mobs.Perhaps, so, but I don't really like things that are 'forced'. /shrug

Why even bother playing the game if you do not want to learn its mechanics? How is the game going to make you learn gameplay if you can indefinitely avoid it?

Obviously it does not have to be a per character thing, can just be once per account thing that you can repeat as needed.

Its not the mechanics to learn i'm on 250ping as an Aussie and hot is inundated with cheap shot mechanics designed to bully customers to death.. not fun in the slightest to play.. Even as an 8 year vet i try to avoid Hot and i've only ever completed pof once.. its just not a fun aspect to deal with daily..

@Croc.1978 said:Yes, difficulty in HoT is fine as it is.

That said, there's really nothing that prepares players for what awaits them in the green hell before they enter it. They probably intended Silverwastes to be that preparation, but it doesn't work. And nerfing Orr post-release was a mistake.

I guess the best advise you could give new players now is:
  • play Orr
  • play Silverwastes (not RIBA) for a while
  • start PoF and get at least Raptor with canyon jump
  • enter Verdant Brink

I think the best advice is toncomplete pof and play hot as a prequel.

That wont help you need minimum Glider, Bunny and a Flying mount to avoid a good chunk of deaths..

I have played through that same content with high ping as well, and do not feel bullied in the slightest. I also have a plenty of 300 ping AUS and asian friends who do not struggle with the content.

You dont need flying mount or glider in pof.

Eh? Confused as to how this is relevant to anything. You indeed do not need those for PoF. Nor mounts for HoT.

@Dante.1508 said:Hot is not "easy to solo" gliders and mounts help a lot.. try soloing without them.. New customers have to.. Classes are so unbalanced a Engi, Necro and a Guardian can storm through the maps while Warrior, Ele and Mesmer get killed every second.. Even Rangers and Revenants have some issues..

No you aren't right op.. sorry but you are very wrong.. you are a niche in this game.

@Cerioth.7062 said:Honestly most of the issues described here would be fixed by introducing better core game tutorialization that forces you to learn your abilities and counter mobs.Perhaps, so, but I don't really like things that are 'forced'. /shrug

Why even bother playing the game if you do not want to learn its mechanics? How is the game going to make you learn gameplay if you can indefinitely avoid it?

Obviously it does not have to be a per character thing, can just be once per account thing that you can repeat as needed.

Its not the mechanics to learn i'm on 250ping as an Aussie and hot is inundated with cheap shot mechanics designed to bully customers to death.. not fun in the slightest to play.. Even as an 8 year vet i try to avoid Hot and i've only ever completed pof once.. its just not a fun aspect to deal with daily..

@Croc.1978 said:Yes, difficulty in HoT is fine as it is.

That said, there's really nothing that prepares players for what awaits them in the green hell before they enter it. They probably intended Silverwastes to be that preparation, but it doesn't work. And nerfing Orr post-release was a mistake.

I guess the best advise you could give new players now is:
  • play Orr
  • play Silverwastes (not RIBA) for a while
  • start PoF and get at least Raptor with canyon jump
  • enter Verdant Brink

I think the best advice is toncomplete pof and play hot as a prequel.

That wont help you need minimum Glider, Bunny and a Flying mount to avoid a good chunk of deaths..

I have played through that same content with high ping as well, and do not feel bullied in the slightest. I also have a plenty of 300 ping AUS and asian friends who do not struggle with the content.

Great and i have a lot that say otherwise. we go round and around.. even yesterday i saw customers angry an frustrated in hot.. that isn't good gaming imo. Also i don't know if it was my time zone but for me Tangled Depths was beyond empty mostly.. not even events.

Then perhaps it is time for all these individuals to look into what they can do in order to improve their own gameplay, instead of demanding for content to be nerfed.

Someone someone suggested that you need to get the raptor so you should do the first part of pof before hot which to me seeks weird. You want to have some kind of narrative structure so doing 1 part of pof going back to hot and then going back to pof to finish it seems weird to me.

The devs want the content super hard so it takes longer to pass.. The way customers are suggesting is an easier route but breaks the games story for customers. Sadly if i was new i'd completely avoid HOT till i had at least 5 mounts and then do HOT, focusing on my glider first. Strange that following the story in this game is actually punishing customers.. but hey thats GW2 after Tyria's bright start.

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@kharmin.7683 said:

@Croc.1978 said:Yes, difficulty in HoT is fine as it is.

That said, there's really nothing that prepares players for what awaits them in the green hell before they enter it. They probably intended Silverwastes to be that preparation, but it doesn't work. And nerfing Orr post-release was a mistake.

I guess the best advise you could give new players now is:
  • play Orr
  • play Silverwastes (not RIBA) for a while
  • start PoF and get at least Raptor with canyon jump
  • enter Verdant Brink

as a relatively new player to GW2 i wish i was told this way earlier. Orr was a bit of a pain (mostly beacuse the amount of mobs packed litterly everywhere) but it was atleast doable even if i never want to repeat that storyline again. Then i head into HoT since i didnt have the living world seasons and all i can say its not been a fun ride. Everything from HP being either 1 mile above or under you, or in a cave somewhere to mobs ripping you apart or knocking you off platforms. continue with the story and it doesnt really get any better when you get to the maze for example that 1 shots you if you arent quick enought. Dont get me wrong, i dont mind a challenge but HoT so far have been frustrating from start to finish, its not something i want to repeat again which is a shame beacuse i do like storybased games. but unless you play something with a personal tank like ranger or full plate armor with full exotics, its not going to be a fun experience. I dont expect to be powerful but HoT have taken it a bit too far sadly this have lead to im taking a break from the game beacuse i just get frustrated when im supposed to have fun. I know that i dont play perfect but the difficulty spike truly is off the charts if you compare it with the base game.

Sorry for your experience. May I suggest asking for help in HoT maps? I've always had people respond and assist whenever I'm unable to accomplish something in those maps.

i have a friend luckily helping me out and i got majority of the HP done after joining in on a train so as it looks right now im soon almost done with HoT story wise. never had issues finding people for events, for me the frustations lied in how unaccesable and hard it was to navigate and the extreme damage the mobs do to you. The difficulty spike between the base game and HoT is quite huge for a new player, even when in full exotic you struggle. so for future alts i most likely will skip HoT completly and start with PoF directly

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@Croc.1978 said:

@Croc.1978 said:On the other hand, one adapts to circumstances.

Orr mobs were actually buffed later on. They added the Risen Nobles that deal high amounts of damage (probably the highest damage potential of all mobs in Orr) with their shadow teleport skill that creates a symbol, and then they also changed how Risen Drakes work, leaving pools of poison behind them when they charge. Both abilities weren't available on release. Anyway, everyone remembers the "nerf of Orr" but maybe forgot the "buff of Orr".

Interesting. From my memory the numbers of the Risen in Orr maps were much higher at release though. But my memory could be mistaken.

It wasn't "much higher", there was a slight adjustment to mob spawns but the meme of "nerfed Orr" circulates around. There was a tweak to the type of spawns (less CC) and less dense mob populations to avoid CC spam and the "ping pong" effect. Risen were never a challenge to deal with, you can fight them with auto attacks and they won't do any serious damage, they are just HP sponges with soft and hard CC skills, with some rare exceptions.

The biggest change they did was remove the "pull" from the Risen Putrifier, which were the highest offenders in Orr, making moving around a pain. They are the Risen with the anchor, they have a skill similar to Guardian GS 4, they create a symbol under them, in the old days they would then throw the anchor at a player and it would attach on them. Then they'd pull the anchor back, pulling the player with it, on top of the symbol, to damage them. You could get away from the chill spam, but getting pulled back a long distance, into a long forgotten group of mobs that you've already avoided, was not fun. It's interesting that when Anet removed the pull, they didn't change the AI of the mob, so they'll happily create a symbol under their bodies, then run away from it to chase players, effectively making them look dumb. Similar to how they replaced Retaliation on Mordrem Wolves with Swiftness but left the 1 second skill channel.

There are also places, like the spider lair, the area around the temple of Grenth and the area and caves around the ship at the southeast corner of Cursed Shore where they didn't change mob spawns at all, mob density was reduced around pathways, so it became easier to go from point A to point B, but event areas weren't altered

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@"Tuna Bandit.3786" said:I do agree that the shift from previous maps to HoT maps is too much of a jump for new players. I disagree with the "Promoting playing together." and I will explain why.

My very first time entering Verdant Brink, I was met with a map where gliding is essential. Yet you had to fill the xp bar FIRST before you could glide.So I ran down the sloap to start earning XP, just to find 2 squads of pocket raptors and a smokescale together on my path, killing me pretty much instantly.

Secondly I came there during the nightime bosses. Another flawed design.I had NO gliding no nothing, so was 100% unable to help (they were on the wyvern matriach) and I got the "friendly" request to return later so their "friends" could enter the apparantly full map that did have gliding to help out.WHAT????

The problem with these maps is not the strength of the enemies, it's the fact that you are "forced" to seek help.It suddenly is no longer an option but mandatory. Even for something as simple as Map Completion, you REQUIRE help.NO!

Bad design, bad concept, that was RECOGNIZED luckely (considering the later maps can all be completed solo, where events DO encourage teamplay.)HoT does not encourage teamplayit FORCES teamplay. And that, by it's very nature, is a poor design decision.

Today, I only enter the maps with my 2 toons that I KNOW can solo most content and can get Map Completion without me REQUIRING help.(on that remark: It does require me to BUY the hero points)

I prefer teamplay to ALWAYS be optional.

Events on most maps beyond hot can soloed i kinds wish they changed ds and tarir to be soloable maybe remove the octovine regen and vb just remove night all together its not a good meta design. Td meta gareth change it to not have a forced timer on it instead up until finished. Ds and df needs to remove the lane concepts let all do events at their pace

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@Dante.1508 said:

@Dante.1508 said:Hot is not "easy to solo" gliders and mounts help a lot.. try soloing without them.. New customers have to.. Classes are so unbalanced a Engi, Necro and a Guardian can storm through the maps while Warrior, Ele and Mesmer get killed every second.. Even Rangers and Revenants have some issues..

No you aren't right op.. sorry but you are very wrong.. you are a niche in this game.

@Cerioth.7062 said:Honestly most of the issues described here would be fixed by introducing better core game tutorialization that forces you to learn your abilities and counter mobs.Perhaps, so, but I don't really like things that are 'forced'. /shrug

Why even bother playing the game if you do not want to learn its mechanics? How is the game going to make you learn gameplay if you can indefinitely avoid it?

Obviously it does not have to be a per character thing, can just be once per account thing that you can repeat as needed.

Its not the mechanics to learn i'm on 250ping as an Aussie and hot is inundated with cheap shot mechanics designed to bully customers to death.. not fun in the slightest to play.. Even as an 8 year vet i try to avoid Hot and i've only ever completed pof once.. its just not a fun aspect to deal with daily..

@Croc.1978 said:Yes, difficulty in HoT is fine as it is.

That said, there's really nothing that prepares players for what awaits them in the green hell before they enter it. They probably intended Silverwastes to be that preparation, but it doesn't work. And nerfing Orr post-release was a mistake.

I guess the best advise you could give new players now is:
  • play Orr
  • play Silverwastes (not RIBA) for a while
  • start PoF and get at least Raptor with canyon jump
  • enter Verdant Brink

I think the best advice is toncomplete pof and play hot as a prequel.

That wont help you need minimum Glider, Bunny and a Flying mount to avoid a good chunk of deaths..

In case anyone was actually planning to listen to this guy, let me just save you the trouble with this video of an HoT champion solo that anyone (even Dante here!) can do. As a bonus, I'm wearing green gear that costs about 2s per piece so anyone can afford it. I've also slotted all signets for utilities and no weapon swap to avoid any complications. You can literally just push buttons at random with this build and win. The only thing that matters is pushing dodge and auto attack over and over.

Seriously, Dante, do yourself a favor and try this. You might begin to realize what people are trying to tell you and what you never could have learned playing through content once and then complaining about it endlessly for years. Find a build that works. This one happens to work even if you don't want to!

I can pass that one.. i noticed you used stave mesmer not greatsword? did you try elementalist? also try the tengu or vinetooth.. try the chak and rolling thing.. You cherry pick a relatively easy one and say Hot is doable.. Try soloing Tangled depths hero points i soloed about 2 in that map.. the rest obliterated me.

Lets see you do Balthazar solo.

Sure thing, chief.

I bet those aren't you, and those are half a year ago.. before a lot of changes especially the mushroom it was in Jan, but kudos to those players, i wish i had ping times to rival those players..

Here you go, Dante. Links to my youtube channel and the forum threads I've maintained for years focusing on open world builds for mesmer and elementalist, including variants designed to help players who struggle with expansion/story content but aren't mechanically inclined. If my Balthazar solo isn't current enough for you, perhaps you'd care to watch my VB night meta boss trio solo from 3 weeks ago?

In any event, if you need help with hero points in HoT I regularly assist other players with that. I don't like to lead big squads, so it would just be you and me. Quicker that way, since we don't have to wait for stragglers and I can solo the champs down in about a minute. You'd get some hero points pain-free and see for yourself what elementalist is capable of in open world!

I usually just wait for HP trains myself.. but thanks either way, I'm on Sea of Sorrows so i doubt we are in the same server. Well done on those HPs, again i wish i had your ping times, i feel i'd solo a lot more, but being 250-400ish ping i don't have most chances.

@Dante.1508 said:Hot is not "easy to solo" gliders and mounts help a lot.. try soloing without them.. New customers have to.. Classes are so unbalanced a Engi, Necro and a Guardian can storm through the maps while Warrior, Ele and Mesmer get killed every second.. Even Rangers and Revenants have some issues..

No you aren't right op.. sorry but you are very wrong.. you are a niche in this game.

@Cerioth.7062 said:Honestly most of the issues described here would be fixed by introducing better core game tutorialization that forces you to learn your abilities and counter mobs.Perhaps, so, but I don't really like things that are 'forced'. /shrug

Why even bother playing the game if you do not want to learn its mechanics? How is the game going to make you learn gameplay if you can indefinitely avoid it?

Obviously it does not have to be a per character thing, can just be once per account thing that you can repeat as needed.

Its not the mechanics to learn i'm on 250ping as an Aussie and hot is inundated with cheap shot mechanics designed to bully customers to death.. not fun in the slightest to play.. Even as an 8 year vet i try to avoid Hot and i've only ever completed pof once.. its just not a fun aspect to deal with daily..

@Croc.1978 said:Yes, difficulty in HoT is fine as it is.

That said, there's really nothing that prepares players for what awaits them in the green hell before they enter it. They probably intended Silverwastes to be that preparation, but it doesn't work. And nerfing Orr post-release was a mistake.

I guess the best advise you could give new players now is:
  • play Orr
  • play Silverwastes (not RIBA) for a while
  • start PoF and get at least Raptor with canyon jump
  • enter Verdant Brink

I think the best advice is toncomplete pof and play hot as a prequel.

That wont help you need minimum Glider, Bunny and a Flying mount to avoid a good chunk of deaths..

I have played through that same content with high ping as well, and do not feel bullied in the slightest. I also have a plenty of 300 ping AUS and asian friends who do not struggle with the content.

You dont need flying mount or glider in pof.

Eh? Confused as to how this is relevant to anything. You indeed do not need those for PoF. Nor mounts for HoT.

@Dante.1508 said:Hot is not "easy to solo" gliders and mounts help a lot.. try soloing without them.. New customers have to.. Classes are so unbalanced a Engi, Necro and a Guardian can storm through the maps while Warrior, Ele and Mesmer get killed every second.. Even Rangers and Revenants have some issues..

No you aren't right op.. sorry but you are very wrong.. you are a niche in this game.

@Cerioth.7062 said:Honestly most of the issues described here would be fixed by introducing better core game tutorialization that forces you to learn your abilities and counter mobs.Perhaps, so, but I don't really like things that are 'forced'. /shrug

Why even bother playing the game if you do not want to learn its mechanics? How is the game going to make you learn gameplay if you can indefinitely avoid it?

Obviously it does not have to be a per character thing, can just be once per account thing that you can repeat as needed.

Its not the mechanics to learn i'm on 250ping as an Aussie and hot is inundated with cheap shot mechanics designed to bully customers to death.. not fun in the slightest to play.. Even as an 8 year vet i try to avoid Hot and i've only ever completed pof once.. its just not a fun aspect to deal with daily..

@Croc.1978 said:Yes, difficulty in HoT is fine as it is.

That said, there's really nothing that prepares players for what awaits them in the green hell before they enter it. They probably intended Silverwastes to be that preparation, but it doesn't work. And nerfing Orr post-release was a mistake.

I guess the best advise you could give new players now is:
  • play Orr
  • play Silverwastes (not RIBA) for a while
  • start PoF and get at least Raptor with canyon jump
  • enter Verdant Brink

I think the best advice is toncomplete pof and play hot as a prequel.

That wont help you need minimum Glider, Bunny and a Flying mount to avoid a good chunk of deaths..

I have played through that same content with high ping as well, and do not feel bullied in the slightest. I also have a plenty of 300 ping AUS and asian friends who do not struggle with the content.

Great and i have a lot that say otherwise. we go round and around.. even yesterday i saw customers angry an frustrated in hot.. that isn't good gaming imo. Also i don't know if it was my time zone but for me Tangled Depths was beyond empty mostly.. not even events.

Then perhaps it is time for all these individuals to look into what they can do in order to improve their own gameplay, instead of demanding for content to be nerfed.

Someone someone suggested that you need to get the raptor so you should do the first part of pof before hot which to me seeks weird. You want to have some kind of narrative structure so doing 1 part of pof going back to hot and then going back to pof to finish it seems weird to me.

The devs want the content super hard so it takes longer to pass.. The way customers are suggesting is an easier route but breaks the games story for customers. Sadly if i was new i'd completely avoid HOT till i had at least 5 mounts and then do HOT, focusing on my glider first. Strange that following the story in this game is actually punishing customers.. but hey thats GW2 after Tyria's bright start.

You can play pve with anyone that is on a north American server. Its not restricted to just sea of sorrows.

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HoT isn't "Dark Souls hard", but it isn't properly tuned, either. Critters in HoT have too much of something (damage, health, mitigation) that is out of sync with player tools to counter/mitigate. Breakbars get plenty of use, but either the timers on them are too short or the required Defiance is too high for a solo player.
I'm not suggesting a massive nerf, but it does need tweaks to align monster skills with player skills.

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@"Rauderi.8706" said:HoT isn't "Dark Souls hard", but it isn't properly tuned, either. Critters in HoT have too much of something (damage, health, mitigation) that is out of sync with player tools to counter/mitigate. Breakbars get plenty of use, but either the timers on them are too short or the required Defiance is too high for a solo player.

I'm not suggesting a massive nerf, but it does need tweaks to align monster skills with player skills.

Its not exactly hard, its more tedious and overtooled on purpose to gate customers.. Some actual critters do far too much damage though, and the over use of CC paired with crazy damage makes it not fun, its why a large group of the population ignore 99% of mobs in HOT unless they are forced to fight them for some reason, in tyria customers actively look for things to kill in hot you only kill stuff as a last resort.. big difference in gameplay and fun factor.

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Most of the HoT mobs don't seem to have much more HP than core open-world enemies, and they're usually only clustered in packs of 3 or 4. Except for "mini-mini-boss" enemies like the big dinos, fights tend to be quick and brutal rather than HP-burning slogfests. I like the way it's tuned.

The thing that put me off of Guild Wars 2 when HoT came out was actually the Desert Borderlands, which was very tedious to navigate before mounts and gliding.

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@Rauderi.8706 said:Breakbars get plenty of use, but either the timers on them are too short or the required Defiance is too high for a solo player.

i'm experiencing the exact opposite: i break the bar in one go at ease but all my cooldowns are done way before it replenishes, so i want to stun it again but can't because the timer is too long.

@maddoctor.2738 said:The biggest change they did was remove the "pull" from the Risen Putrifier, which were the highest offenders in Orr, making moving around a pain. They are the Risen with the anchor, they have a skill similar to Guardian GS 4, they create a symbol under them, in the old days they would then throw the anchor at a player and it would attach on them. Then they'd pull the anchor back, pulling the player with it, on top of the symbol, to damage them. You could get away from the chill spam, but getting pulled back a long distance, into a long forgotten group of mobs that you've already avoided, was not fun.

interesting that they nevertheless added earth olmakhan in kourna that pull with virtually zero cooldown. as i run a perma-swiftness build i am used to outrun any mob, most times not getting hit at all. that one olmakhan however managed to pull me thrice before i could run out of his aggro zone and it would've been 5 times at least if i hadn't blocked the fourth

seems they don't learn from their mistakes at all.

i do remember the wolf damage and i never thought it was overtuned. the champiopn wolf in sw regularly downed one player per attack but he attacked so rarely and had no defenses whatsoever plus a rather big group of players against him that he desparately needed that damage to be any threat at all. nowadays 5 people with mounts clear him like a veteran mob.

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@Croc.1978 said:On the other hand, one adapts to circumstances.

Orr mobs were actually buffed later on. They added the Risen Nobles that deal high amounts of damage (probably the highest damage potential of all mobs in Orr) with their shadow teleport skill that creates a symbol, and then they also changed how Risen Drakes work, leaving pools of poison behind them when they charge. Both abilities weren't available on release. Anyway, everyone remembers the "nerf of Orr" but maybe forgot the "buff of Orr".

Interesting. From my memory the numbers of the Risen in Orr maps were much higher at release though. But my memory could be mistaken.

BTW, do you happen to know what's the deal with Champion Risen Knights? Their ground AoE does rather ordinary damage for a while and then suddenly it spikes you for 20k - 30k. I can't remember that obvious bug being there when the game released.

I spend very little time in the core game, but if those are the flying undead guys I think they move toward their target dropping multiple circles. If the circles stack on where you're standing you can be hit by multiple at once.

OK, but that doesn't really explain the extreme spike (yes, those are the flying guys). I've fought them with 25k health, 3k armour and 12% damage reduction and got insta-downed by a single pulse from almost full health. Happened to me twice.

I guess I will try to reproduce it to check the combat log afterwards.

If enough of those circles pile up and strike at the same time it could appear to happen instantly or in 1 hit.

This is a problem on bandit champions that throw those little torches, too. They throw more of them if there are more targets, but if those targets are stacked...look out!

in the core tyria story instance "Ossuary of Unquiet Dead" there is a risen abomination that does around 20k dmg per hit, onehitting every squishy player. getting hit by it is rather easy because it has hitboxes like the huge abominations while being rather small, so visually you're far away but you still get hit. also the slam on the ground has a huge radius that has no size hint whatsoever. the champion risen knight that guards an HP in malchor's leap also has attacks that strong iirc, at least my memory says "avoid this creature at any cost if you're solo".

overall HoT has a few offenders, like the veteran bristleback that isn't bursted down that fast and has a multihit that outlasts 2 dodges and a block as auto-attack or young wyverns that still show no red circle/other hint where they set their deadly fire circle (not talking about the legendary ones with their lanes of puke, those are totally fine to have no hint) but nothing in HoT is "super hard". the concept of HoT HPs was that they are not soloable at all which is also the reason why they provide 10 HP instead of 1 as in core tyria. however the ground level HP in verdant brink got nerfed so hard that it is easily soloable and the whole world of PoF made 10p HPs laughably easy, much easier than 1p HPs in core tyria even, which makes HoT look ridiculously overtuned in reminiscence.

i don't get people that want HoT to be soloable at all, that area is fully optional, HoT masteries are leveled best in LS3 and are not very important anywhere outside HoT. if you don't like group content in the open world, play core tyria or PoF. but the meaning of an MMORPG is open/random group content and we can only really enjoy that in HoT, so don't take it away.

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