Elite Spec Discussion: Emperor Usoku and Greatsword - The Tyrant

[Chaos.7614]

Edit: Made some changes that some commenters below suggested and then fleshed out the skills a bit! New skill stuff and commentary is bolded. Feel free to comment on those changes too.

Hi all, I know there’s a lot of discussion about our next elite spec but I wanted to make a separate thread for what I believe is a unique twist on an already existing profession gimmick. Moving forward we should have a bit of context – elite specs were meant to provide alternative ways of playing classes with clear advantages over other specs. We’ve seen core specs largely become outclassed by their elite specs which is unfortunate but practical seeing as ArenaNet has to sell expansions and elite specs are a big draw of that. Additionally, elite specs generally fall into one of three categories: support, control, and damage. I think you can make a strong argument that herald was meant to be our support spec and renegade our control spec (whether or not they do their job well is a whole different story), leaving a damage spec open. With a new dps spec, ArenaNet could go back and rebalance the other elite specs, making them more relevant to the current meta and reducing power creep. The following elite spec idea I’ve put together is largely one built on making revenants feel like an unstoppable force, focused on keeping the bulk of their power focused on themselves as opposed to the herald and renegade. I drew heavily on berserker for inspiration, since it feels like a more physical contrast to the spirit-based spec we got with renegade. Without further ado, let’s get into it.

Revenant Elite Spec: TyrantLegendary Ruler Stance - Emperor UsokuWeapon: GreatswordDescription: The 32nd emperor of Cantha, Usoku, returns to influence the kingdom he restored through fierce warfare and unyielding policy. Tyrants fight with a greatsword, cleaving down enemies with mist-imbued strikes.Profession mechanic: TyrannyTyrants are locked to exclusive use of the Legendary Ruler stance. However, players may choose two core stances to conquer, influencing Legendary Ruler skills and greatsword skills. Ancient Echo persists into the elite spec as Conqueror's Legacy, now granting 50 energy but giving no legend-specific effects. Legend-swap will not restore energy and is on a 10-second cooldown.UI color scheme: Dark gray/black. Animated flames/mist above the skill bar tinged with conquered legend's color scheme (e.g. green for Shiro, purple for Mallyx, blue for Jalis, yellow for Ventari)General theme: This spec should evoke the image of an unyielding and indomitable figure, relentlessly crushing all in their way. Legend skills are restricted to Legendary Ruler skills, but choices are still meaningful by choosing a situationally-dependent conquered legend. Conquered Shiro is the aggressive pDPS option, Conquered Jalis the defensive tank, Conquered Mallyx a pseudosupport cDPS (though the original intent is for this class to primarily be a pDPS), and Conquered Ventari a support (same intent, but if people can make it work, the option should be there for them). To remove some of the more supportive aspects of the specialization, things have changed to be much more selfish and designed almost exclusively to be damage-oriented with only slight twists based on legend. For example, Ventari is no longer a pure support theme and is replaced with more self-healing/lifesteal based on skill usage. The spec is designed mainly for PvE to be melee, high pDPS with active involvement and careful skill usage, but with utility for PvP/WvW players. Numbers all around can be tweaked and I didn’t put in any base damage since I’m not an expert in game balance. I decided to make skills contain different effects based on the conquered legend since the trident was well received as being unique with different effects based on the channeled legend. Names can also be changed.

Greatsword skills:

1. Swift Arc (0.5s) - Chain. Slash your foe. 3 foes.1a. Side Slice (0.5s) - Chain. Slash your foe again. 3 foes.1b. Deadly Sunder (0.5s) - Strike your foe with a heavy transverse slash. 3 foes.Conquered Shiro: Auto chain grants mightcompletes 50% faster.Conquered Jalis: Auto chain grants stabilitydeals 5% more damage if you've taken damage within the past 3 seconds.Conquered Mallyx: Auto chain grants resistancedeals 5% more damage if foe is afflicted by a condition.Conquered Ventari: Auto chain grants regenerationgrants 50hp/attack.

2. Mist Divider (1s, 6s cd, 10 energy) - Raise your blade overhead and bring it down, rending enemies in front of you with mist energy. 5 foes.Conquered Shiro: Deals more damage to foes with <50% hp.Skill completes 50% faster.Conquered Jalis: Deals more damage to foes with >50% hp.Skill reduces target's toughness by 10% for 5 seconds.Conquered Mallyx: Deals more damage to foes with 3+ conditions.Skill creates a rift echo that closes after 1 second for extra damage.Conquered Ventari: Deals more damage to foes that have recently cast skills.Skill heals for 50% of the damage done.

3. Forceful Impale (0.5s, 12s cd, 15 energy) - Command mist energy to teleport your enemy to you, impaling their body upon your blade. Inflicts 3s cripple and weakness. 1 foe.Conquered Shiro: Increase damage of skill. Skill marks the target for 5% additional damage for 5s.Conquered Jalis: Increase range of skill. Skill marks the target to deal 5% less damage to you for 5s.Conquered Mallyx: Additionally inflict 3s torment and burning. Skill also applies 3s torment, 3s burning, and 1s of chill.Conquered Ventari: Lower energy cost to 5 energy. Skill marks the target for additional lifesteal on autoattacks for 5s.

4. Deathly Waves (2s, 15s, 10 energy) - Send four waves of mist energy at your enemy, each dealing increased damage for number of projectiles hit. 5 foes.Conquered Shiro: Lifesteal 50% of damage dealt by this skill. Skill sends six waves of mist energy and completes 50% faster.Conquered Jalis: Gain 5% damage reduction for each target hit.Conquered Mallyx: Increase number of targets to 10. Skill damage increases by 50%.Conquered Ventari: Enemies hit by at least 2 projectiles cannot cast skills for 2 seconds. Lifesteal 50% of the damage dealt by this skill.

5. Painful Passage (1.5s, 20s, 20 energy) - Create a portal to the mists lasting 5 seconds, damaging enemies caught in the AoE. 5 foes.Conquered Shiro: Damage is increased if only one foe is inside. Skill increases damage by 100% if enemy is <50% health.Conquered Jalis: Inflict weakness on all foes hit. Foes are slowed if crossing the edge of the portal.Conquered Mallyx: Also inflict enemies with torment, burning, and bleeding. Increase the size of the AoE and increase number of targets to 10 foes.Conquered Ventari: Gain barrier for each enemy hit. Lifesteal 50% of the damage dealt by this skill.

Legendary Ruler skills:

6. Emperor's Resolve (1s, 15s cd, 10 energy) - Heal.Conquered Shiro: Your next three auto attacks are 50% faster. Your damage increases by 10% for the next 5 seconds.Conquered Jalis: Gain 15% damage reduction for 5 seconds.Conquered Mallyx: Transfer 3 conditions to a nearby foe. Gain 15% increased damage for the next 5 seconds if afflicted by 3 or more conditions.Conquered Ventari: Heal nearby allies for a lesser amount. You recover an additional 50% of the damage you deal as hp for the next 5 seconds.

7. Emperor's Command (instant, 20s cd, 20 energy) - Gain a mobile AoE around yourself that pulses stability, swiftness, regeneration, and resistance for 5 seconds. 5 allies.Emperor's Contempt (instant, 15s cd, 15 energy) - Lash out and hit nearby foes within a nearby radius, gaining stability, resistance, and fury for each enemy struck. 5 foes.Conquered Shiro: Instead of swiftness, grant superspeed. Skill cannot be blocked.Conquered Jalis: Also grant 10% damage reduction to allies. Skill restores 50 endurance and grants vigor.Conquered Mallyx: Absorb conditions from your allies. Skill steals 1 random boon and 1 random condition from each target.Conquered Ventari: Heal allies after skill ends. Skill self-heals and grants regeneration.

8. Emperor's Cunning (instant, 5s cd, -10 energy/second) - Imbue yourself with mist energy. Toggle. Skill does not untoggle when swapping stances.Conquered Shiro: Gain 20% increased physical damage. Gain 20% increased damage.Conquered Jalis: Gain 10% damage reduction. Gain 20% reduced damage from projectiles and 15% reduced damage from melee attacks.Conquered Mallyx: Gain 10% increased condition damage. Intensify the effect of conditions on all targets within an AoE: 20% for self and 40% for enemies. 5 foes.Conquered Ventari: Gain 20% increased healing power. Health gained over the cap from Tyrant and greatsword skills is converted to barrier.8a. Emperor's Fatigue (instant) - Untoggle Emperor's Cunning.

9. Emperor's Divide (instant, 20s cd, 20 energy) - Create an unpassable sphere around yourself that blocks all projectiles for 3 seconds. Knockback foes around yourself. 5 foes.Conquered Shiro: Projectiles are now reflected to enemies. Damage all foes hit.Conquered Jalis: Enemies inside the sphere are pushed outside of it. Grant magnetic aura for 3s.Conquered Mallyx: Enemies inside the sphere are blinded. Enemies hit are blinded for 2s.Conquered Ventari: Heal yourself and nearby allies for each projectile blocked. Heal yourself for each enemy hit.

10. Emperor's Dominion (1.5s, 45s cd, 50 energy) - Mark an area with mist energy, summoning 4 greatswords of mist energy to impale them after 1.5s. Foe takes 20% increased damage from all sources for the next 10 seconds. bending the conquered legend's power to the will of Usoku.Conquered Shiro: Summon 6 greatswords instead of 4. Skill summons six greatswords to impale the area after channeling for massive damage. Target cannot block this skill; blocks decrease this skill's damage by 50%. 5 foes.Conquered Jalis: Also take 20% reduced damage from targeted foe for the next 10 seconds. A massive hammer descends on the area, damaging enemies and granting you 20% damage reduction for the next 5 seconds.Conquered Mallyx: Target also deals 10% reduced damage for the next 10 seconds. Skill summons two demonic servants to attack for 10 seconds, prioritizing the Tyrant's current target. 1 foe each.Conquered Ventari: Damaging the target grants allies healing and barrier. A hail of arrows rains down on the area for 5s, crippling enemies and applying lifesteal while healing you and applying regeneration.

Traitline skills:

Minor Proficiency: Greatsword Proficiency - You can wield greatswords.Minor Adept: Tyranny - Gain access to Legendary Ruler stance, losing the ability to channel core legends but allowing them to be conquered. Ancient Echo is replaced by Conqueror's Legacy, restoring 50 energy but losing legend-specific effects.Major adept 1: Mist Restoration - Conqueror's Legacy restores 75 energy.Major adept 2: Unchained Fighter - Conqueror's Legacy breaks stun and grants stability.Major adept 3: Invigorating Carnage - Killing an enemy restores 10 energy (ICD: 5s).Minor master: Simple Strikes - Basic attacks from weapons grant 5 energy upon successful hit.Major master 1: On the Warpath - Gain 10% increased damage while energy is above 25.Major master 2: Emperor's Calculation - Convert 10% of your lowest stat power into your highest stat ferocity. Grant 10% of your power as ferocity.Major master 3: Sharpened Blade - Every 7 seconds your next attackskill deals 50% increased damage.Minor grandmaster: Tithe of the Conquered - Conqueror's Legacy grants a stat bonus for 10 seconds depending on which secondary legend is conquered (Shiro - 200 power, Jalis - 200 vitality, Mallyx - 200 condition damage, Ventari - 200 healing power) 200 power for 10 seconds when used.Major grandmaster 1: Bloody Victor - Deal 20% increased damage with greatsword skills.Major grandmaster 2: Into the Fray - Increase your damage by 5% for every nearby enemy (caps at 30%).Major grandmaster 3: Unyielding - Gain all boons, cleanse all conditions, and heal for 50% hp when your health falls below 10% (ICD: 60s).

I know ArenaNet probably won’t see this, but I thought it would be a unique idea that provides a new way to play the class. I chose Usoku over Togo since I see spirits as way too similar to Kalla. You could make an argument for another aggressive non-Canthan legend to have a setup like this, but Usoku seemed a prime candidate for the Cantha expansion and tyrannical theme. As for greatsword, one big issue with revenant is that we do not have many weapons and skills to choose from, which is why I’m skeptical for a scepter. It also seems like a large portion of revenant players are hoping for greatsword, which would definitely promote popularity for our class and the expansion as a whole. Apologies if something like this has already popped up on the forum, but I couldn’t see any from what I looked at. Any feedback is welcome!

[Elric.4713]

Haven't had a GS thread for a while I guess.

[Raknar.4735]

Usoku does make a whole lot more sense than Togo, as he influenced society in Cantha a lot, while Togo is just a minuscule part of Shiro‘s story.Even though I don‘t like the idea of another human (canthan) legend, the skills being modified by the other legends similiar to trident is nice.

[Fueki.4753]

If we were channel the Mists' memories of a ruling monarch, wouldn't make Sceptre more sense than Greatchunk?

It's more in depth than most other Revenant Greatchunk threads (that I've read), but it still feels like nothing more than a spec for the sake of the Greatchunk.

[jpsssss.7530]

They haven't tied the legend stance to an expac's region yet. I still think Jora would be a far better legend as A) we already have a human legend from Cantha and B )We don't have a Norn legend yet.

[Teratus.2859]

Loving the concept and I don't even play Rev much.Greatsword rev isn't anything im majorly Pro or Against but a spec called The Tyrant and the Legend being Emperor Usoku is something I can absolutely get behind!!

I would love to see some of the Utilities reference the Ministry of Purity, like a skill that summons a few Ministry of Purity ghosts or spirits or something ^^Another cool idea could be that every time a Tyrant Rev blocks and counterattacks an attack a ghostly Ministry of Purity guard cosmetic effect could come up in front of the player and act like it is defending it's emperor by doing a riposte animation.

[Chaos.7614]

@Fueki.4753 said:If we were channel the Mists' memories of a ruling monarch, wouldn't make Sceptre more sense than Greatchunk?

It's more in depth than most other Revenant Greatchunk threads (that I've read), but it still feels like nothing more than a spec for the sake of the Greatchunk.

Maybe, but the idea of a scepter holding royal authority is too passive for a figure like Usoku. I'm also not the biggest fan of giving a class starved for skills a weapon that would only give 3 compared to 5. The only way I can see scepter working is if they introduce legend-specific effects on a scepter mainhand skills and retroactively apply that to offhands, since we only have 2 offhand weapons.

The way I see it, greatsword is really the most favorable weapon to add not only in terms of practicality but in terms of popularity. From what I've seen, everyone who wants scepter for our next spec also wants a Ritualist spec, which is already done with Kalla.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

@jpsssss.7530 said:They haven't tied the legend stance to an expac's region yet.

Glint is fairly strongly tied to the Maguuma Region with the Exalted/Tarir/Heart of Thorns story. It definitely has stronger expansion ties than some of the other HoT elite specs, like chronomancer. Definitely moreso than Kalla with PoF as well, where the only real tie in for her is some vague themes regarding rebellion and overthrowing tyrannical figured heads/governments.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

@Chaos.7614 said:

@Fueki.4753 said:If we were channel the Mists' memories of a ruling monarch, wouldn't make Sceptre more sense than Greatchunk?

It's more in depth than most other Revenant Greatchunk threads (that I've read), but it still feels like nothing more than

a spec for the sake of the Greatchunk.

Maybe, but the idea of a scepter holding royal authority is too passive for a figure like Usoku. I'm also not the biggest fan of giving a class starved for skills a weapon that would only give 3 compared to 5. The only way I can see scepter working is if they introduce legend-specific effects on a scepter mainhand skills and retroactively apply that to offhands, since we only have 2 offhand weapons.

Solution here is easy: give it scepter + focus. Spellbreaker already got mainhand and offhand dagger, which are technically different weapons, so it’s been done before

The way I see it, greatsword is really the most favorable weapon to add not only in terms of practicality but in terms of popularity. From what I've seen, everyone who wants scepter for our next spec also wants a Ritualist spec, which is already done with Kalla.

There are other aspects to Ritualist than just spirits. If Rev gets a Rit themed spec with Scepter + Focus I would hope that they dive into the Channeling magic/weapon spell aspect of Rit.

Also there are other Non-Ritualist Legends that could use Scepter Focus that would be way more interesting. Vizier Khilbron immediately comes to mind

[Loules.8601]

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

@Chaos.7614 said:

@Fueki.4753 said:If we were channel the Mists' memories of a ruling monarch, wouldn't make Sceptre more sense than Greatchunk?

It's more in depth than most other Revenant Greatchunk threads (that I've read), but it still feels like nothing more than

a spec for the sake of the Greatchunk.

Maybe, but the idea of a scepter holding royal authority is too passive for a figure like Usoku. I'm also not the biggest fan of giving a class starved for skills a weapon that would only give 3 compared to 5. The only way I can see scepter working is if they introduce legend-specific effects on a scepter mainhand skills and retroactively apply that to offhands, since we only have 2 offhand weapons.

Solution here is easy: give it scepter + focus. Spellbreaker already got mainhand and offhand dagger, which are technically different weapons, so it’s been done before

The way I see it, greatsword is really the most favorable weapon to add not only in terms of practicality but in terms of popularity. From what I've seen, everyone who wants scepter for our next spec also wants a Ritualist spec, which is already done with Kalla.

There are other aspects to Ritualist than just spirits. If Rev gets a Rit themed spec with Scepter + Focus I would hope that they dive into the Channeling magic/weapon spell aspect of Rit.

Also there are other Non-Ritualist Legends that could use Scepter Focus that would be way more interesting.

Vizier Khilbron

immediately comes to mind

We need greatsword more than anything - soldier class without one of the most loved weapon-types...I think the two-handed sword is the one the type of weapon the Revenant community has been looking forward to the most since the class was released. So any spec with Greatsword will be better than anything.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

@Loules.8601 said:

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

@Chaos.7614 said:

@Fueki.4753 said:If we were channel the Mists' memories of a ruling monarch, wouldn't make Sceptre more sense than Greatchunk?

It's more in depth than most other Revenant Greatchunk threads (that I've read), but it still feels like nothing more than

a spec for the sake of the Greatchunk.

Maybe, but the idea of a scepter holding royal authority is too passive for a figure like Usoku. I'm also not the biggest fan of giving a class starved for skills a weapon that would only give 3 compared to 5. The only way I can see scepter working is if they introduce legend-specific effects on a scepter mainhand skills and retroactively apply that to offhands, since we only have 2 offhand weapons.

Solution here is easy: give it scepter + focus. Spellbreaker already got mainhand and offhand dagger, which are technically different weapons, so it’s been done before

The way I see it, greatsword is really the most favorable weapon to add not only in terms of practicality but in terms of popularity. From what I've seen, everyone who wants scepter for our next spec also wants a Ritualist spec, which is already done with Kalla.

There are other aspects to Ritualist than just spirits. If Rev gets a Rit themed spec with Scepter + Focus I would hope that they dive into the Channeling magic/weapon spell aspect of Rit.

Also there are other Non-Ritualist Legends that could use Scepter Focus that would be way more interesting.

Vizier Khilbron

immediately comes to mind

We need greatsword more than anything - soldier class without one of the most loved weapon-types...I think the two-handed sword is the one the type of weapon the Revenant community has been looking forward to the most since the class was released. So any spec with Greatsword will be better than anything.

Aesthetics are subjective really. I don’t think a soldier class inherently needs Greatsword.

[Fueki.4753]

@"Loules.8601" said:We need greatsword more than anything

Who is "we"?Define "need"Clearly not the entire Revenant player base.

As a Revenant main, Greatsword is the last weapon I want.

soldier class without one of the most loved weapon-types...Not all soldiers need the unwieldy Greatchunk.

[Elric.4713]

@Loules.8601 said:

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

@Chaos.7614 said:

@Fueki.4753 said:If we were channel the Mists' memories of a ruling monarch, wouldn't make Sceptre more sense than Greatchunk?

It's more in depth than most other Revenant Greatchunk threads (that I've read), but it still feels like nothing more than

a spec for the sake of the Greatchunk.

Maybe, but the idea of a scepter holding royal authority is too passive for a figure like Usoku. I'm also not the biggest fan of giving a class starved for skills a weapon that would only give 3 compared to 5. The only way I can see scepter working is if they introduce legend-specific effects on a scepter mainhand skills and retroactively apply that to offhands, since we only have 2 offhand weapons.

Solution here is easy: give it scepter + focus. Spellbreaker already got mainhand and offhand dagger, which are technically different weapons, so it’s been done before

The way I see it, greatsword is really the most favorable weapon to add not only in terms of practicality but in terms of popularity. From what I've seen, everyone who wants scepter for our next spec also wants a Ritualist spec, which is already done with Kalla.

There are other aspects to Ritualist than just spirits. If Rev gets a Rit themed spec with Scepter + Focus I would hope that they dive into the Channeling magic/weapon spell aspect of Rit.

Also there are other Non-Ritualist Legends that could use Scepter Focus that would be way more interesting.

Vizier Khilbron

immediately comes to mind

We need greatsword more than anything - soldier class without one of the most loved weapon-types...I think the two-handed sword is the one the type of weapon the Revenant community has been looking forward to the most since the class was released. So any spec with Greatsword will be better than anything.

I'd say hammer is the weapon that defines soldiers. Greatsword on the other hand we see on two scholar professions and one adventurer, so if anyone it's either Thief or Engineer that should get it. And it's popular among all the professions that don't have it, should they just give it to everyone? I don't think so.

[Chaos.7614]

@Fueki.4753 said:

@"Loules.8601" said:We need greatsword more than anything

Who is "we"?Define "need"Clearly not the entire Revenant player base.

As a Revenant main, Greatsword is the

last

weapon I want.

soldier class without one of the most loved weapon-types...Not all soldiers need the unwieldy Greatchunk.

I think we're not approaching the spec with the same idea in mind - I'm going to assume Loules is primarily a PvE player as am I, but it appears you are more of a PvP player? I'm not too well versed in the PvP aspect of rev, but I imagine a lack of a medium range pDPS is your concern? Or is it just the overall flavor of gs that you dislike?

[Fueki.4753]

@Chaos.7614 said:

@Fueki.4753 said:

@"Loules.8601" said:We need greatsword more than anything

Who is "we"?Define "need"Clearly not the entire Revenant player base.

As a Revenant main, Greatsword is the

last

weapon I want.

soldier class without one of the most loved weapon-types...Not all soldiers need the unwieldy Greatchunk.

I think we're not approaching the spec with the same idea in mind - I'm going to assume Loules is primarily a PvE player as am I, but it appears you are more of a PvP player? I'm not too well versed in the PvP aspect of rev, but I imagine a lack of a medium range pDPS is your concern? Or is it just the overall flavor of gs that you dislike?

I'm definitely a PvE player.Greatswords simply look stupid on any profession that has it so far.The Mists theme of Revenant will do nothing but add to the silliness of that weapon type.

That aside, I don't see what a Greatsword could possibly bring to Revenant, that already exists:For a melee ranged power-based weapons we already have Swords, which also hit multiple enemies.For condi, we already have Mace/Axe.For a defense/support hybrid weapon, we already have Staff.For ranged power-based AoE damage, Hammer is available. For the condition variant, we have Shortbow.

All that's missing are a long range single-target weapon or a CC-heavy weapon.I doubt that Arenanet will add another ranged Greatsword, as that'd remove the uniqueness of Mesmer's Greatsword.And unless Revenants that slapping enemies with the flat side of the Greatsword, which would add even more to the silliness of that weapon type, a Greatsword would be fit for CC.

[Chaos.7614]

@Fueki.4753 said:I'm definitely a PvE player.Ok, that makes things a bit clearer. Do you dabble in any endgame or just open world? My focus is more PvE endgame than anything else, since you can get by on anything with OW.

Greatswords simply look stupid on any profession that has it so far.The Mists theme of Revenant will do nothing but add to the silliness of that weapon type.Respectfully gonna disagree and discount this portion of the argument since it's just a fashion opinion and not a gameplay one. I think shortbow looks dumb, but at least it added to the control/condi niche of the class.

That aside, I don't see what a Greatsword could possibly bring to Revenant, that already exists:Well sure, you can argue that all classes have at least one support and at least one DPS spec, but that doesn't mean they do it well. The point of elite specs is to round out a class and patch up weaknesses in the core class.

For a melee ranged power-based weapons we already have Swords, which also hit multiple enemies.Either spec is low pDPS, especially in a raid/fractal setting. The burst damage is pretty bad and the sustained benchmark just barely hits 34k.

For condi, we already have Mace/Axe.Yep. No complaints with the condi we have.

For a defense/support hybrid weapon, we already have Staff.Staff's not really good for anything other than the 5 skill for CC in PvE. I'd argue it's more of a CC weapon at this point.

For ranged power-based AoE damage, Hammer is available. For the condition variant, we have Shortbow.Yep.

All that's missing are a long range single-target weapon or a CC-heavy weapon.Hammer is a long range weapon that has decent single-target. The autos + skill 2 do decent damage if you're sitting in range, but the game is balanced around melee - especially in instanced content. Kalla is a heavy CC spec - Darkrazor and shortbow 4/5 are pretty good for breakbars, but you see staff used since it's even better.

I doubt that Arenanet will add another ranged Greatsword, as that'd remove the uniqueness of Mesmer's Greatsword.Agreed, not too fond of a traditionally-melee ranged weapon. Gameplay-wise, long range weapons aren't needed in endgame.

And unless Revenants that slapping enemies with the flat side of the Greatsword, which would add even more to the silliness of that weapon type, a Greatsword would be fit for CC.I posted in another thread, but the weapon largely dictates the intent of the spec. We've seen nothing except pDPS berserker based builds work with greatswords since the weapon is associated with DPS. The niche that revenant is missing IS a pDPS spec. Every single spec released so far does not give a good number of skills or modifiers for pDPS to actually contribute in a fractal/raid setting over other classes. Even Shiro, which was intended for us to use a pDPS, has skills that are irrelevant in a PvE setting. No need to teleport to enemies when they're already in front of you; no need to dodge backwards with a massive energy cost if you know how to use your regular dodge button, and no need for the elite unless your supports and bannerslave have no idea what they're doing.

[Datarus.9871]

Legend skills are restricted to Legendary Ruler skills, but choices are still meaningful by choosing a situationally-dependent conquered legend.

Love this idea

[draxynnic.3719]

First response: Oh, it's another "find an excuse for greatsword" proposal.

Second response: Inspired by berserker? Isn't half the point of revenant to find concepts that don't fit nicely into other professions?

Third response: I'm really not fond of the "locked into one legend" concept. The whole point of revenant is legendswapping, just like elementalists have their attunements (and you'll note that while elementalist elites modify how attunement works, the base system remains intact). I'm presuming that part of the idea is that you still choose two 'conquered' legends and can swap between them, but even so, you're giving up the main advantage of the revenant (having two utility skillbars to draw from) while retaining one of the main drawbacks of revenant (having to choose your utilities in blocks of five, rather than being able to pick the ones that are going to give you the most benefit for the situation you expect to go into). From a balance perspective, it'd make the specialisation very predictable - as soon as you see that an enemy player is running this in PvP, you'd have a pretty good idea of what you're going to be facing. On a personal level... if this was introduced, the only way I could see myself playing this is if it was so ridiculously overpowered that I felt like I had to, and I don't think that's a balance state that would persist for very long. If I wanted to play a revenant without legend swapping, I'd play Guardian.

Which segways somewhat into my fourth response on looking at the actual skills:

There's certainly a valid point that revenant could use a selfish DPS-oriented specialisation. Dragon Stance is effectively a support stance that has generally become accepted as being underwhelming support, and gained a second life as a self-buffing tanky DPS stance, but that's not a stance suitable for high-end PvE. Renegade Stance is a second take at a support stance that actually worked, mostly because of alacrity, the lifesteal spirit, and having the potential to bring in additional support effects from a core legend.

What you've made, though... would likely be treated as another support stance by the balance team, after a few passes if not at release. I'm not going to call out the numbers since you're not trying to finely balance it here, but Emperor's Command is two of the strongest anti-disruption boons in the game, not just to you but to your allies. That's a pretty strong support before we even consider the other two boons or the conquered legend effect. Emperor's Divide is essentially a short-duration Shelter. The balance team is probably not going to allow you to have top-tier DPS while packing that sort of support on your bar. Granted, for high-end PvE purposes, it's not quickness, alacrity, or stacking 25 might on a raid squad on your own, but you'd probably end up being balanced as being closer to a renegade or a non-quickness firebrand than a pure DPS build.

This'd be even more the case in competitive environments, where stability, resistance, projectile block, and area denial are all powerful capabilities.

[Chaos.7614]

@"draxynnic.3719" said:First off, thanks for the post - lots of good points in here.

First response: Oh, it's another "find an excuse for greatsword" proposal.People keep thinking this but it's not a matter of wanting greatsword and building a spec around it; it's building a spec geared toward the pDPS niche we lack and finding an appropriate weapon which I believe is the greatsword for reasons given above.

Second response: Inspired by berserker? Isn't half the point of revenant to find concepts that don't fit nicely into other professions?There's a few things we can discuss here - the first being lore. When I was thinking about an appropriate figure for the next legend, Usoku seemed like a good choice since he was an influencial figure in Canthan history and Canthan revenants (if they exist canonically) would probably draw power from something in Canthan history. From what I pieced together from the wiki, he was the one that waged war against the Luxons and Kurzicks to bring them back into a united Cantha, so definitely not someone who'd derive power from a scepter or his heritage as previous comments in this thread suggested.

Elite specs don't have to completely re-invent the wheel, only patch up weaknesses and find new niches. The part of the berserker theme I like most is that it offers a clear trade off of dealing more damage for taking increased damage: "killing the enemy at all costs". Gameplay-wise, the support bannerslave seems to dominate in endgame over DPS berserker, but the theme still feels nice. Applying that to revenant while reducing the supportive potential would be great - which I noticed you addressed.

Third response: I'm really not fond of the "locked into one legend" concept. The whole point of revenant is legendswapping, just like elementalists have their attunements (and you'll note that while elementalist elites modify how attunement works, the base system remains intact). I'm presuming that part of the idea is that you still choose two 'conquered' legends and can swap between them, but even so, you're giving up the main advantage of the revenant (having two utility skillbars to draw from) while retaining one of the main drawbacks of revenant (having to choose your utilities in blocks of five, rather than being able to pick the ones that are going to give you the most benefit for the situation you expect to go into). From a balance perspective, it'd make the specialisation very predictable - as soon as you see that an enemy player is running this in PvP, you'd have a pretty good idea of what you're going to be facing. On a personal level... if this was introduced, the only way I could see myself playing this is if it was so ridiculously overpowered that I felt like I had to, and I don't think that's a balance state that would persist for very long. If I wanted to play a revenant without legend swapping, I'd play Guardian.I'll admit I didn't have a legend-swapping aspect built into the conquered mechanic, but having one would be better than just swapping out of combat. Legend-swapping is definitely important for all prior specs but this would offer a different playstyle where you're not concerned with legend-swapping to regain energy and use different skills; instead, you'll use skills as they come up and using Conqueror's Legacy off-CD so you can keep that DPS going. The lack of skills is more of an issue for competitive, which is why I didn't flesh it out as much as I should've. I think a good compromise would be to alter the skills to change their functionality even more than what I have here e.g. for the auto chain, there's not really much difference except for boons. A more drastic change could be to alter damage coefficients, base animation speed, or have drastically diverging skill differences e.g. Emperor's Dominion would summon 6 greatswords to impale an enemy while in Shiro, but would call forth temporary demonic summons while in Mallyx. That would be a LOT of work for Anet though; however, I'd like to justify the effort given that our last spec's 6-10 skills were just having 5 summons that probably took less than a month to come up with the idea for...

Which segways somewhat into my fourth response on looking at the actual skills:

There's certainly a valid point that revenant could use a selfish DPS-oriented specialisation. Dragon Stance is effectively a support stance that has generally become accepted as being underwhelming support, and gained a second life as a self-buffing tanky DPS stance, but that's not a stance suitable for high-end PvE. Renegade Stance is a second take at a support stance that actually worked, mostly because of alacrity, the lifesteal spirit, and having the potential to bring in additional support effects from a core legend.Yep, no disagreements here. I've mentioned many times that once we finally have 3 specs per profession, it's long overdue for Anet to go back and rebalance prior specs on a drastic scale. Power creep has made support herald irrelevant and I'd love to have other specs besides chronomancer and renegade to reliably provide alacrity so I'm not stuck on it all the time in groups.

What you've made, though... would likely be treated as another support stance by the balance team, after a few passes if not at release. I'm not going to call out the numbers since you're not trying to finely balance it here, but Emperor's Command is two of the strongest anti-disruption boons in the game, not just to you but to your allies. That's a pretty strong support before we even consider the other two boons or the conquered legend effect. Emperor's Divide is essentially a short-duration Shelter. The balance team is probably not going to allow you to have top-tier DPS while packing that sort of support on your bar. Granted, for high-end PvE purposes, it's not quickness, alacrity, or stacking 25 might on a raid squad on your own, but you'd probably end up being balanced as being closer to a renegade or a non-quickness firebrand than a pure DPS build.I sure hope they wouldn't! Let's break it down though and I'll run through each skill:

6. Emperor's Resolve - Pretty sure the heal is ok as is, nothing game-breaking about it. Maybe offer it some more offensive potential e.g. give it something akin to Guardian's Litany of Wrath as a base skill and modify that according to conquered legend.
7. Emperor's Command - I can see how it would be busted in a competitive environment. We could definitely remove at least one of those anti-disruption boons, maybe a few others, and give it a base functionality of increasing self+ally damage by a percentage. Looking at it from a PvE endgame scenario, unique buffs are a strong draw for people to pick up those specs for encounters.
8. Emperor's Resourcefulness - I don't think there's much issue with having a toggle skill that empowers oneself, seeing as every single stance has one upkeep skill. Numbers and functionality depending on conquered legend can change, but at a fundamental level it should be something that a Tyrant almost always has on for some extra DPS.
9. Emperor's Divide - This idea came from a lore standpoint with Usoku closing off Cantha and I did draw on some inspiration from Sanctuary for it. To make it a more selfish spec, I think a good alternative would be to limit the reflect to oneself through a magnetic aura and an AoE knockback.
10. Emperor's Dominion - Reading a few other forum threads made me realize how some elite skills don't really feel like game-changing abilities, especially for revenant in a PvE standpoint. The only reason I'd use elites on Shiro or Jalis is to spend energy for a swap when I have too much energy. These skills shouldn't be spammed or tossed away for energy, which is why I designed this skill to be a high CD and high impact one. Can always change the functionality based on what I described earlier with Shiro vs Mallyx and just apply that to the rest of the legends. It could even be changed to an AoE skill rather than a targeted one, since my new ideas for a targeted Ventari/Jalis-conquered version don't seem that good in my head.

This'd be even more the case in competitive environments, where stability, resistance, projectile block, and area denial are all powerful capabilities.Again, I'm not a competitive player so I'll defer to people who main those game modes. Really good points though - I enjoyed writing this up.

[Yasai.3549]

Too immobile.At least 1 mobility skill on Greatsword would be nice.

Change GS 3 to be a gap closer instead.It's definitely gonna be wonky vs bosses which cannot be displaced any how, so either the skill is entirely borked when used against a Boss, or yu have to be in melee range anyway so a gap closer would be a much better option.

[Chaos.7614]

@Yasai.3549 said:Too immobile.At least 1 mobility skill on Greatsword would be nice.

Change GS 3 to be a gap closer instead.It's definitely gonna be wonky vs bosses which cannot be displaced any how, so either the skill is entirely borked when used against a Boss, or yu have to be in melee range anyway so a gap closer would be a much better option.

Not gonna lie, my intent with the design wasn't for it to be all that mobile outside of the aura skill granting swiftness. Instead of it being a class to easily gap-close, it's more of a class that won't let you live after making it to you, which I think allows gs 3 to fit the theme of the class. I drew on the idea for greatsword 3 from the old offhand sword 5 skill that pulled an enemy with you after being in melee range, although the greatsword skill wouldn't have a minimum range requirement. It obviously won't work on anything with a breakbar or something you can't normally CC, but it can still pull players in competitive to beat them down.

[Yasai.3549]

@"Chaos.7614" said:

Not gonna lie, my intent with the design wasn't for it to be all that mobile outside of the aura skill granting swiftness. Instead of it being a class to easily gap-close, it's more of a class that won't let you live after making it to you, which I think allows gs 3 to fit the theme of the class. I drew on the idea for greatsword 3 from the old offhand sword 5 skill that pulled an enemy with you after being in melee range, although the greatsword skill wouldn't have a minimum range requirement. It obviously won't work on anything with a breakbar or something you can't normally CC, but it can still pull players in competitive to beat them down.

A small gapcloser on 3 will make the entire kit smoother anyway.There's no point enforcing his "low mobility juggernaut" theme onto only 1 skill when he doesn't expand similar traits to any of his Legend Stance or other GS skills.There should be more skills of similar nature in the Legend Stance itself, rather than on the weapon.

This is where I hate a majority of Revenant Epsec ideas : People keep trying to tie the weapon with the Legend, where that's the entire problem with Rev in the first place, which causes Rev to have extremely low options for weapon loadouts if they are going for builds surrounding specific Legends.

Also there is really no point trying to enforce gameplay archetypes on Revenant as a whole, because they swap Legends and essentially dual-wield archetypes.And besides, we already have one such Archetype, and that's the Reaper, and funnily enough, Reaper itself is the only Necro spec that has a built in Gapcloser on Shroud 2.

[draxynnic.3719]

@Chaos.7614 said:

@"draxynnic.3719" said:First off, thanks for the post - lots of good points in here.

First response: Oh, it's another "find an excuse for greatsword" proposal.People keep thinking this but it's not a matter of wanting greatsword and building a spec around it; it's building a spec geared toward the pDPS niche we lack and finding an appropriate weapon which I believe is the greatsword for reasons given above.

At first glance, it does look that way, though. Sword/sword is already a pretty decent power DPS option - revenant just doesn't currently have the ability to orient its utilities to support sustained pDPS the way that some other professions can. Axe mainhand could would well, and that's before getting into things like daggers, melee scepter, and things of that nature. Broadly speaking, there's no reason why pDPS specs HAVE to mean Greatsword.

Second response: Inspired by berserker? Isn't half the point of revenant to find concepts that don't fit nicely into other professions?There's a few things we can discuss here - the first being lore. When I was thinking about an appropriate figure for the next legend, Usoku seemed like a good choice since he was an influencial figure in Canthan history and Canthan revenants (if they exist canonically) would probably draw power from something in Canthan history. From what I pieced together from the wiki, he was the one that waged war against the Luxons and Kurzicks to bring them back into a united Cantha, so definitely not someone who'd derive power from a scepter or his heritage as previous comments in this thread suggested.

Elite specs don't have to completely re-invent the wheel, only patch up weaknesses and find new niches. The part of the berserker theme I like most is that it offers a clear trade off of dealing more damage for taking increased damage: "killing the enemy at all costs". Gameplay-wise, the support bannerslave seems to dominate in endgame over DPS berserker, but the theme still feels nice. Applying that to revenant while reducing the supportive potential would be great - which I noticed you addressed.

From a lore perspective, we know Usoku conquered the vassal states and expelled nonhumans from Cantha. There's no evidence that I know about, however, that shows that he did so from the front. Consider that the leader of the Ministry of Purity was a mesmer (acted as somewhat of a showcase for what GW2 mesmers would be like, even), Emperor Kisu was a ritualist, and several other human leaders have been spellcasters rather than frontliners. ArenaNet could take that approach with him, but they don't have to.

From a philosophical perspective... I tend to view Revenant as being a profession that takes concepts that don't fit nicely into the existing professions. We've had a legend inspired by a demon, one inspired by the facets of Glint's Lair, one that uses a mobile tablet as a channel for a variety of support effects, and Shiro, while technically an Assassin, had abilities so outside the realm of thief/assassin that he was really his own thing, and the Legendary Assassin Stance leans heavily on that. Basing an elite spec on what another profession can do really feels like a waste of the revenant's potential to do something off the wall that just wouldn't work with any other profession.

Third response: I'm really not fond of the "locked into one legend" concept. The whole point of revenant is legendswapping, just like elementalists have their attunements (and you'll note that while elementalist elites modify how attunement works, the base system remains intact). I'm presuming that part of the idea is that you still choose two 'conquered' legends and can swap between them, but even so, you're giving up the main advantage of the revenant (having two utility skillbars to draw from) while retaining one of the main drawbacks of revenant (having to choose your utilities in blocks of five, rather than being able to pick the ones that are going to give you the most benefit for the situation you expect to go into). From a balance perspective, it'd make the specialisation very predictable - as soon as you see that an enemy player is running this in PvP, you'd have a pretty good idea of what you're going to be facing. On a personal level... if this was introduced, the only way I could see myself playing this is if it was so ridiculously overpowered that I felt like I

had

to, and I don't think that's a balance state that would persist for very long. If I wanted to play a revenant without legend swapping, I'd play Guardian.I'll admit I didn't have a legend-swapping aspect built into the conquered mechanic, but having one would be better than just swapping out of combat. Legend-swapping is definitely important for all prior specs but this would offer a different playstyle where you're not concerned with legend-swapping to regain energy and use different skills; instead, you'll use skills as they come up and using Conqueror's Legacy off-CD so you can keep that DPS going. The lack of skills is more of an issue for competitive, which is why I didn't flesh it out as much as I should've. I think a good compromise would be to alter the skills to change their functionality even more than what I have here e.g. for the auto chain, there's not really much difference except for boons. A more drastic change could be to alter damage coefficients, base animation speed, or have drastically diverging skill differences e.g. Emperor's Dominion would summon 6 greatswords to impale an enemy while in Shiro, but would call forth temporary demonic summons while in Mallyx. That would be a LOT of work for Anet though; however, I'd like to justify the effort given that our last spec's 6-10 skills were just having 5 summons that probably took less than a month to come up with the idea for...

Yeah. Ultimately, I think there'd need to be some swapping mechanic that remains. I think it would be hard to get to a point where the different 'conquered legends' really felt different without putting a heavy burden on the devs, although it might be possible. Mind you, I think it would be possible to achieve the desired goal without sacrificing the normal swapping mechanic. Shiro is a decent selfish-damage-option if you spend your energy on Impossible Odds, your heal, and weapon attacks - the problem is that your next best option to switch to for selfish damage is Jalis or Glint.

Which segways somewhat into my fourth response on looking at the actual skills:

There's certainly a valid point that revenant could use a selfish DPS-oriented specialisation. Dragon Stance is effectively a support stance that has generally become accepted as being underwhelming support, and gained a second life as a self-buffing tanky DPS stance, but that's not a stance suitable for high-end PvE. Renegade Stance is a second take at a support stance that actually

worked,

mostly because of alacrity, the lifesteal spirit, and having the potential to bring in additional support effects from a core legend.Yep, no disagreements here. I've mentioned many times that once we finally have 3 specs per profession, it's long overdue for Anet to go back and rebalance prior specs on a drastic scale. Power creep has made support herald irrelevant and I'd love to have other specs besides chronomancer and renegade to reliably provide alacrity so I'm not stuck on it all the time in groups.

I don't think it was power creep that made support herald irrelevant so much as being DoA due to the boons it provided being better applied by other sources in raid or fractal conditions. Maybe it'd be worth it for protection, but renegade now pretty much wins when it comes to support revenant.

What you've made, though... would likely be treated as another support stance by the balance team, after a few passes if not at release. I'm not going to call out the numbers since you're not trying to finely balance it here, but Emperor's Command is two of the strongest anti-disruption boons in the game, not just to you but to your allies. That's a pretty strong support before we even consider the other two boons or the conquered legend effect. Emperor's Divide is essentially a short-duration Shelter. The balance team is probably not going to allow you to have top-tier DPS while packing that sort of support on your bar. Granted, for high-end PvE purposes, it's not quickness, alacrity, or stacking 25 might on a raid squad on your own, but you'd probably end up being balanced as being closer to a renegade or a non-quickness firebrand than a pure DPS build.I sure hope they wouldn't! Let's break it down though and I'll run through each skill:

6. Emperor's Resolve - Pretty sure the heal is ok as is, nothing game-breaking about it. Maybe offer it some more offensive potential e.g. give it something akin to Guardian's Litany of Wrath as a base skill and modify that according to conquered legend.
7. Emperor's Command - I can see how it would be busted in a competitive environment. We could definitely remove at least one of those anti-disruption boons, maybe a few others, and give it a base functionality of increasing self+ally damage by a percentage. Looking at it from a PvE endgame scenario, unique buffs are a strong draw for people to pick up those specs for encounters.
8. Emperor's Resourcefulness - I don't think there's much issue with having a toggle skill that empowers oneself, seeing as every single stance has one upkeep skill. Numbers and functionality depending on conquered legend can change, but at a fundamental level it should be something that a Tyrant almost always has on for some extra DPS.
9. Emperor's Divide - This idea came from a lore standpoint with Usoku closing off Cantha and I did draw on some inspiration from Sanctuary for it. To make it a more selfish spec, I think a good alternative would be to limit the reflect to oneself through a magnetic aura and an AoE knockback.
10. Emperor's Dominion - Reading a few other forum threads made me realize how some elite skills don't really feel like game-changing abilities, especially for revenant in a PvE standpoint. The only reason I'd use elites on Shiro or Jalis is to spend energy for a swap when I have too much energy. These skills shouldn't be spammed or tossed away for energy, which is why I designed this skill to be a high CD and high impact one. Can always change the functionality based on what I described earlier with Shiro vs Mallyx and just apply that to the rest of the legends. It could even be changed to an AoE skill rather than a targeted one, since my new ideas for a targeted Ventari/Jalis-conquered version don't seem that good in my head.

Yeah, it was mostly Emperor's Command and Emperor's Divide that I was looking at and going "these are support abilities - competing with existing revenant support, even".

For Emperor's Command... giving extra damage to allies is something that would lead to the build being balanced as if that extra damage was part of its own contribution. You can see this with, say, condi firebrand, which gets to a competitive DPS when you take into account Ashes of the Just triggering off allies. Might and/or fury you can possibly get away with, since the general assumption is likely to be that a raid squad is capped on those anyway (which is why support herald fails). If you're giving a damage boost that stacks with everything else out there... well, you've basically created another bannerslave. Unique buffs ARE a big draw, and professions with them tend to get balanced accordingly. It might be easier to have something like "Emperor's Contempt", striking enemies within a radius and granting stability and resistance to yourself for each enemy struck.

In the case of Emperor's Divide... I see what you're going for there, essentially going for replaying the expulsion of nonhumans and foreigners, similar to how the Shiro and Jalis elites replay some of their signature impacts on the world on a smaller and more temporary scale. You probably can afford an AoE knockback - even the most pure DPS builds usually have some control. Projectile blocking could possibly be made something that happens when combined with Ventari or something along those lines.

(I would note, too, that while revenant elites are less inclined to be high recharge, high impact skills than elites of some other professions, I have seen some impressive results from clutch use of Jade Wind and RotGD. One player I know was particularly good at helping to mitigate mechanics using RotGD and Inspiring Reinforcement.

[sitarskee.5738]

I like the idea. I see that GS skills are highly inspired by Reaper's GS skills.