HoT = Dark Souls ? Casual Gamer perspective.

[AliamRationem.5172]

@battledrone.8315 said:

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@Master Ketsu.4569 said:I remember back in the 90's when devs just told people to gitgud.

Those were better days.

Pandering to casuals just ruins the game for everyone else. Open world PvE is already mind numbingly easy enough as it is.

and if it isnt, then there wont be millions of casuals to pay for THE GAME. wildstar showed us where THAT ends.they simply never had the money to optimize the game, game, so the hardcore content never got to work right.in the end, the hardcores left too, since the hardcore content really NEEDS to work perfectlya good mmo is a like a pyramid...for every one at the top, there are 100s at the bottompretty much like a REAL society

Maybe. But there are also people living in a shed outside the pyramid that don't spend any money and proclaim themselves part of this illustrious group of foundational players. I hope the devs don't listen to those players as they are not indicative of anything.

yep, just ignore the customers, that should work out just fine. you prolly dont have to fire anyone, or change plans later..and since this is the only mmo on the market, people just have to suck it up and GIT GUD

Aren't you the one that said these people don't spend money and don't play very much? In fact, as far as I can tell, there are only a few of them and they spend all their time throwing salt on the forums. So, yes, please ignore them!

[mindcircus.1506]

I find it telling that the people professing to speak for the casual viewpoint in this thread (specifically @battledrone.8315 and @"Dante.1508" ) speak as "customers" and not "players".

[Tsakhi.8124]

@Astyrah.4015 said:

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@kraai.7265 said:

@"AdamWarlord.6782" said:Edit: This post is to voice a percentage of player base's opinion(may it be a minority, majority, or even just me) on HoT including mine.

I have nothing less than love for the game Devs and the community

. I have been playing for 2-3 years atleast, and have played some GW1 back in the day. Im not just throwing shade on the HoT content.

I am trying to voice my opinion and my experience in a straightforward manner.

Alright, so i just finished up my online classes and studies for my upcoming third year exams and I sit to do my daily completion of a legendary, going on for weeks now. As you can understand, i don't have more than maybe 2-3 hours to play at best. Completion of Eternity and other core legendary weapons took time, but atleast it was doable without frustration and having "fun". When it comes to HoT, I don't know what i am even doing. I am trying to go around the map 90% of the time trying not to die because the floor minion mobs are so OVERPOWERED. I have been playing the game for 2 years, and i have avoided HoT every chance i got because of the same exact reasons i am about to mention.

1. Its very hard to see, hate the map design and how dark it is in 70% of the places.
2. Lags way too much on my mid end laptop.
3. Floor mobs are wayy too overpowered and feel like boss mobs.
4. Hence because of the same reason above, VERY hard to level up the masteries.
5. Why do masteries you ask? Because there are wayy too many hero points and other aspects of the completion of HoT, which require doing them. Which sucks.
6. I can't Solo 50% of the hero points, being a max reaper.
7. WAIT, I NEED TO DO A ADRENALINE MASTERY TO DO A HERO POINT WHICH CONSUMES MY LIFE WHEN I EAT BACON? WHEN MY LIFE POOL IS 22k??
8. I actually start to rage(sorry for caps above) playing guild wars 2, which is 90% of the time fun, except when i play HoT.
9. And due to the above reasons i mentioned above, I actually can feel better playing DARK SOULS than HoT.

I also get why they would be reluctant to nerf the mobs more and bring some player driven balance , but atleast 50% if not more gamers are casual on gw2 and want to play not to rage but to have a good time, i don't mind taking months to get my legendary, BUT ATLEAST let the process be fun. I don't want to get grabbed by a rip off stegosaurus while i'm on my raptor and get 2 shot with 22k health. Any balance, related to player level, or player-online time based balance on mobs, a bit more lighting in HoT maps, a bit more of anything. I get HoT is a very old expansion and that Cantha is coming. But atleast respect your players who are trying their hardest to stick to the game and trying to voice their opinions for a change. And of-course please try providing it. Alright! Back to returning to a checkpoint which takes me halfway across the map from the hero point i just died on, and try to re attempt it with broken armor, because there is no repair station nearby, and i don't have a million repair canisters because i'm a casual.

Edit: I realized they have nerfed the difficulty once, i can't imagine what the mobs were like.Edit: I get where most of you all are coming from, But as i said, its my opinion and many other casual gamers opinion on the content. Leading to a player driven balance, not a balance for everyone.

What do you all challenge haters pretend of this game? To be a walk in the park? Do you want anet to turn mobs into freaking paintings? Havn't you had enough with core tyria beeing so freaking easy? do you want mobs to become static with no attack or interaction whatsoever? This is the mentality that drove anet to the mess they are in now, with no clear direction and all sort of players leaving, first they lost almost all pvpers, now they are loosing hardcore pvers, soon they will only have open world bots running around playing for a few months and quitting out of boredom, and all of the ones playing fashion wars standing still in the bank...

its pretty easy: we liked core, and thats what we want MORE of...not something ENTIRELY DIFFERENTquitting the game AFTER you played it, out of BOREDOM, is still better than quitting BEFORE the endif you made a meal for all you friends, and they all put down the fork after one bite, it prolly wasnt that greatbut if they clear the table in record time, and ask for MORE, then it has the quality, that people wil PAY for

Iknow ppl who thought core was to hard should we nerf it down

can just turn gw2 into an interactive visual novel, that way everyone can play -- no one loses

/sarcasm

Unless it's Doki Doki Literature Club, then everyone kinda doesn't win. XD Back on topic I go! HoT wasn't too bad for me, but then again I didn't run it solo most of the time, which I feel is the issue at hand: it is difficult to solo if you're having trouble with crowd control or other kinds of mechanics.

[AliamRationem.5172]

@battledrone.8315 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:and if it isnt, then there wont be millions of casuals to pay for THE GAME

You said earlier that casuals don't pay for this game so this is a weird statement.

they HAD millions, but not anymore. out of 5 mio sold boxes, 3½-4 mio went to casuals. . thats over 150 MIO $ pretty much from start.those 150 mio is the major reason for the easiness of core. they wanted those money, but they didnt want to make more content for the casuals.that is why we are here now

Source? You posted numerous times your claims about sales but I've never seen anything that verifies them. There is a confusion and debate on this thread alone on what the word "casual" even mean, I'm sure the data you have will not only clearly state your numbers, but also provide an accurate definition of the word "casual" that is accepted by everyone.

go to any mmo and find a super easy mission with a good reward. its gonna cramped with players there.now go to the endgame zones with all the HARDCORE content, and see if you can find even a handful of players.fast and easy sells, slow and hard not so much.

That's not really proof of anything. Try again with some actual data

yep, REAL LIFE doesnt prove anything, better wait for a SECRET PAPER from the BUSINESS itself....lolPS note that they are still sporting the 12 mio from F2P launch too. this isnt right...

You're right. I'll just believe what I want to believe, which is clearly more right than what you want to believe as evidenced by the fact that people play the game and enjoy the things I enjoy, too! Yay! I win the internet!

[Dante.1508]

@mindcircus.1506 said:I find it telling that the people professing to speak for the casual viewpoint in this thread (specifically @battledrone.8315 and @"Dante.1508" ) speak as "customers" and not "players".

I always use customers as thats what we are, we pay money to this game, that makes us more than players. Just saying as you brought it up.

[battledrone.8315]

@mindcircus.1506 said:I find it telling that the people professing to speak for the casual viewpoint in this thread (specifically @battledrone.8315 and @"Dante.1508" ) speak as "customers" and not "players".

it is F2P, so one doesnt equal the other anymore. you could prolly play F2P games the rest of your life without ever paying a dime for it.but the devs still need to eat, so they NEED to convert F2Pers into customers.so, even as a F2P game, core still needs to be good. if it isnt, then people wont pay for the expansionsand the ending of core is still horrible. if you liked the rest of of core, you will prolly HATE the end.it is almost the same problem, as the jump from core to hot...a total change in style and gameplay

[maddoctor.2738]

@"battledrone.8315" said:it is F2P, so one doesnt equal the other anymore. you could prolly play F2P games the rest of your life without ever paying a dime for it.but the devs still need to eat, so they NEED to convert F2Pers into customers.so, even as a F2P game, core still needs to be good. if it isnt, then people wont pay for the expansionsand the ending of core is still horrible. if you liked the rest of of core, you will prolly HATE the end.it is almost the same problem, as the jump from core to hot...a total change in style and gameplay

You are absolutely right it's up to the core game to be good enough to convert players into paying customers. But since 30% of accounts haven't left the tutorial zones and 50-60% of the accounts haven't reached this "ending of core" you talk about, it's easy to say that core has trouble converting players. Meaning those "that liked the rest of core" are a small percentage of total accounts.

[Cuks.8241]

@battledrone.8315 said:go to any mmo and find a super easy mission with a good reward. its gonna cramped with players there.now go to the endgame zones with all the HARDCORE content, and see if you can find even a handful of players.fast and easy sells, slow and hard not so much.

Interesting that Hot is consistently populated with players for years now, at least one map for meta at any gives time of day and packed on busy hours. That you can get a fractal group of any difficulty in 1 minute anytime and even dungeons are not an issue after all this time.Core Tyria, kinda empty.

[Yggranya.5201]

@Cuks.8241 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:go to any mmo and find a super easy mission with a good reward. its gonna cramped with players there.now go to the endgame zones with all the HARDCORE content, and see if you can find even a handful of players.fast and easy sells, slow and hard not so much.

Interesting that Hot is consistently populated with players for years now, at least one map for meta at any gives time of day and packed on busy hours. That you can get a fractal group of any difficulty in 1 minute anytime and even dungeons are not an issue after all this time.Core Tyria, kinda empty.

Add amalgamated gemstones to core tyria world bosses, and it would be the same. Nothing special about that. Rewards are the only thing that motivate people, for some reason.

[battledrone.8315]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"battledrone.8315" said:it is F2P, so one doesnt equal the other anymore. you could prolly play F2P games the rest of your life without ever paying a dime for it.but the devs still need to eat, so they NEED to convert F2Pers into customers.so, even as a F2P game, core still needs to be good. if it isnt, then people wont pay for the expansionsand the ending of core is still horrible. if you liked the rest of of core, you will prolly HATE the end.it is almost the same problem, as the jump from core to hot...a total change in style and gameplay

You are absolutely right it's up to the core game to be good enough to convert players into paying customers. But since 30% of accounts haven't left the tutorial zones and 50-60% of the accounts haven't reached this "ending of core" you talk about, it's easy to say that core has trouble converting players. Meaning those "that liked the rest of core" are a small percentage of total accounts.

i doubt those numbers are true, they are much better, than blizzard ever had. that would mean 5-6 MIO potential buyers for hot...where are they now?1,5 mio players would be industry standard, and that is roughly what they got. a number that actually could be much better, if the ending of core wasnt so bad.

[battledrone.8315]

@Cuks.8241 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:go to any mmo and find a super easy mission with a good reward. its gonna cramped with players there.now go to the endgame zones with all the HARDCORE content, and see if you can find even a handful of players.fast and easy sells, slow and hard not so much.

Interesting that Hot is consistently populated with players for years now, at least one map for meta at any gives time of day and packed on busy hours. That you can get a fractal group of any difficulty in 1 minute anytime and even dungeons are not an issue after all this time.Core Tyria, kinda empty.

grinding masteries does take a lot of time in the same maps, unlike core, where they are spread out over many more mapsand if core really IS that empty, then the game is dying. like any society, an mmo simply NEEDS new blood to survive.with over a mio sold boxes, there shouldnt just be ONE instance, there should be many more...where are they?if we set player cap at 200 per map, there should be roughly 500 instances of hot, for it to be successfuland that is only breaking even, if it actually was a BIG HIT, they would need many more

[AliamRationem.5172]

@battledrone.8315 said:

@Cuks.8241 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:go to any mmo and find a super easy mission with a good reward. its gonna cramped with players there.now go to the endgame zones with all the HARDCORE content, and see if you can find even a handful of players.fast and easy sells, slow and hard not so much.

Interesting that Hot is consistently populated with players for years now, at least one map for meta at any gives time of day and packed on busy hours. That you can get a fractal group of any difficulty in 1 minute anytime and even dungeons are not an issue after all this time.Core Tyria, kinda empty.

grinding masteries does take a lot of time in the same maps, unlike core, where they are spread out over many more mapsand if core really IS that empty, then the game is dying. like any society, an mmo simply NEEDS new blood to survive.with over a mio sold boxes, there shouldnt just be ONE instance, there should be many more...where are they?if we set player cap at 200 per map, there should be roughly 500 instances of hot, for it to be successfuland that is only breaking even, if it actually was a BIG HIT, they would need many more

It's a good thing HoT is a thing then! If the game were all like core, it'd be dead by now! Who's going to play such easy, generic trash? LoL

[battledrone.8315]

@Yggranya.5201 said:

@Cuks.8241 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:go to any mmo and find a super easy mission with a good reward. its gonna cramped with players there.now go to the endgame zones with all the HARDCORE content, and see if you can find even a handful of players.fast and easy sells, slow and hard not so much.

Interesting that Hot is consistently populated with players for years now, at least one map for meta at any gives time of day and packed on busy hours. That you can get a fractal group of any difficulty in 1 minute anytime and even dungeons are not an issue after all this time.Core Tyria, kinda empty.

Add amalgamated gemstones to core tyria world bosses, and it would be the same. Nothing special about that. Rewards are the only thing that motivate people, for some reason.

only at end game , the rewards in core were usually less than exciting. progression is usually the best motivator.REAL progression, that is, not horisontal

[maddoctor.2738]

@battledrone.8315 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:it is F2P, so one doesnt equal the other anymore. you could prolly play F2P games the rest of your life without ever paying a dime for it.but the devs still need to eat, so they NEED to convert F2Pers into customers.so, even as a F2P game, core still needs to be good. if it isnt, then people wont pay for the expansionsand the ending of core is still horrible. if you liked the rest of of core, you will prolly HATE the end.it is almost the same problem, as the jump from core to hot...a total change in style and gameplay

You are absolutely right it's up to the core game to be good enough to convert players into paying customers. But since 30% of accounts haven't left the tutorial zones and 50-60% of the accounts haven't reached this "ending of core" you talk about, it's easy to say that core has trouble converting players. Meaning those "that liked the rest of core" are a small percentage of total accounts.

i doubt those numbers are true, they are much better, than blizzard ever had. that would mean 5-6 MIO potential buyers for hot...where are they now?

The numbers are the "absolute maximum" using achievement point totals. The actual numbers are much lower indeed because a lot of players actually went after achievements during their time in the game, meaning they had more in total when they got bored of the core game and left.

1,5 mio players would be industry standard, and that is roughly what they got. a number that actually could be much better, if the ending of core wasnt so bad.

As explained already, it's the beginning of core that is the problem, not the ending. The beginning and mid part of core is where the largest drop off of accounts is in this game. The number of players retained would've been much higher if the early core game was better. Given how even on release the vast majority of players were playing in Orr (the "ending of core" as you call it) and the rest of the game became a wasteland early on, we can easily conclude that the ending of core was never a problem, maybe only for a tiny fraction of the playerbase like yourself, but not of any significant number of actual players

[maddoctor.2738]

@battledrone.8315 said:

@Yggranya.5201 said:

@Cuks.8241 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:go to any mmo and find a super easy mission with a good reward. its gonna cramped with players there.now go to the endgame zones with all the HARDCORE content, and see if you can find even a handful of players.fast and easy sells, slow and hard not so much.

Interesting that Hot is consistently populated with players for years now, at least one map for meta at any gives time of day and packed on busy hours. That you can get a fractal group of any difficulty in 1 minute anytime and even dungeons are not an issue after all this time.Core Tyria, kinda empty.

Add amalgamated gemstones to core tyria world bosses, and it would be the same. Nothing special about that. Rewards are the only thing that motivate people, for some reason.

only at end game , the rewards in core were usually less than exciting. progression is usually the best motivator.REAL progression, that is, not horisontal

Yes that's why early core was mostly deserted for a very long time.World Bosses weren't run by anyone as the only reason to run them was to see the "big bad boss" in action, as rewards didn't existChampions from events spawned and were left there alone for days, because like World Bosses, they had no rewards attached to them

Core Tyria became populated in August 2013 with the Ascended Weapon/Armor update, which also updated World Bosses to provide a guaranteed rare chest and Champions were updated to drop ascended materials and guaranteed champion loot chests. That's when Core Tyria became "playable" until then it was only the zones of the most recent Living World Episode that had population and the mass grindfests of Orr (Penit/Shelter and Plinx) plus dungeons like Citadel of Flame Path 1 farm and Swamps of the Mists later on.

Before August 2013 Core Tyria outside "end game" was mostly a wasteland and most of the game's events and activities were abandoned by the players due to them being unrewarding and boring.

[Master Ketsu.4569]

What a lot of people who claim to be advocating for "casuals" here don't seem to understand is that asking the game be dumbed down to meet the lowest common denominator of skill, with the rationale that "casuals are paying customers too!!1111oneone!!!", is that this kind of demand is actually extremely selfish.

To understand why this is selfish, simply employ some basic logic and reasoning:

Lets say a game is too hard for the bottom skill floor , we will just say -10% of the playerbase. These bottom players essentially have two main options that will allow them to progress through and enjoy the game:

1. Stop being lazy and put in the time to actually learn their class.
2. Find another game that meets their skill level

Now, lets say the Devs decide to pander to the bottom 10% of the playerbase, and dumb the game down so that it is now entirely playable for everyone regardless of skill level. But as a result the game is now mind numbingly and disgustingly boring for the top 10% of the playerbase. These top players essentially have one option:

1. Find another game that meets their skill level

Notice the problem here? Good players cant make themselves "forget" how to play and become bad just so they can enjoy content that has gone through the diaper-and-binky treatment. Unlike lesser skilled players, who absolutely can become better if they just put in a little effort. There are many reasons behind why pandering to the lesser skilled crowd is often bad, but this is the most crucial. When a casual cries that the game is too hard, what they are effectively asking for is for the devs to ruin the game for everyone else.

And in the case of GW2 and HoT especially, this is wholly unfounded. HoT despite being the hardest of OW maps is still very easily soloable by just about anyone who has perfected their class and gone through endgame. If it was any easier, it would be just be pandering.

[Cuks.8241]

@Yggranya.5201 said:

@Cuks.8241 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:go to any mmo and find a super easy mission with a good reward. its gonna cramped with players there.now go to the endgame zones with all the HARDCORE content, and see if you can find even a handful of players.fast and easy sells, slow and hard not so much.

Interesting that Hot is consistently populated with players for years now, at least one map for meta at any gives time of day and packed on busy hours. That you can get a fractal group of any difficulty in 1 minute anytime and even dungeons are not an issue after all this time.Core Tyria, kinda empty.

Add amalgamated gemstones to core tyria world bosses, and it would be the same. Nothing special about that. Rewards are the only thing that motivate people, for some reason.

Why are Pof metas then less populated than Hot? They all give amalgamated gemstones. And Pof metas are easier, faster and require less people and less coordination than Hot. They are not much different than most off the longer event chains, many can be done by like 5 people. The only that is really populated is Casino Blitz.Besides amalgamated have dropped to 70 s lately.

[naiasonod.9265]

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@kraai.7265 said:

@"AdamWarlord.6782" said:Edit: This post is to voice a percentage of player base's opinion(may it be a minority, majority, or even just me) on HoT including mine.

I have nothing less than love for the game Devs and the community

. I have been playing for 2-3 years atleast, and have played some GW1 back in the day. Im not just throwing shade on the HoT content.

I am trying to voice my opinion and my experience in a straightforward manner.

Alright, so i just finished up my online classes and studies for my upcoming third year exams and I sit to do my daily completion of a legendary, going on for weeks now. As you can understand, i don't have more than maybe 2-3 hours to play at best. Completion of Eternity and other core legendary weapons took time, but atleast it was doable without frustration and having "fun". When it comes to HoT, I don't know what i am even doing. I am trying to go around the map 90% of the time trying not to die because the floor minion mobs are so OVERPOWERED. I have been playing the game for 2 years, and i have avoided HoT every chance i got because of the same exact reasons i am about to mention.

1. Its very hard to see, hate the map design and how dark it is in 70% of the places.
2. Lags way too much on my mid end laptop.
3. Floor mobs are wayy too overpowered and feel like boss mobs.
4. Hence because of the same reason above, VERY hard to level up the masteries.
5. Why do masteries you ask? Because there are wayy too many hero points and other aspects of the completion of HoT, which require doing them. Which sucks.
6. I can't Solo 50% of the hero points, being a max reaper.
7. WAIT, I NEED TO DO A ADRENALINE MASTERY TO DO A HERO POINT WHICH CONSUMES MY LIFE WHEN I EAT BACON? WHEN MY LIFE POOL IS 22k??
8. I actually start to rage(sorry for caps above) playing guild wars 2, which is 90% of the time fun, except when i play HoT.
9. And due to the above reasons i mentioned above, I actually can feel better playing DARK SOULS than HoT.

I also get why they would be reluctant to nerf the mobs more and bring some player driven balance , but atleast 50% if not more gamers are casual on gw2 and want to play not to rage but to have a good time, i don't mind taking months to get my legendary, BUT ATLEAST let the process be fun. I don't want to get grabbed by a rip off stegosaurus while i'm on my raptor and get 2 shot with 22k health. Any balance, related to player level, or player-online time based balance on mobs, a bit more lighting in HoT maps, a bit more of anything. I get HoT is a very old expansion and that Cantha is coming. But atleast respect your players who are trying their hardest to stick to the game and trying to voice their opinions for a change. And of-course please try providing it. Alright! Back to returning to a checkpoint which takes me halfway across the map from the hero point i just died on, and try to re attempt it with broken armor, because there is no repair station nearby, and i don't have a million repair canisters because i'm a casual.

Edit: I realized they have nerfed the difficulty once, i can't imagine what the mobs were like.Edit: I get where most of you all are coming from, But as i said, its my opinion and many other casual gamers opinion on the content. Leading to a player driven balance, not a balance for everyone.

What do you all challenge haters pretend of this game? To be a walk in the park? Do you want anet to turn mobs into freaking paintings? Havn't you had enough with core tyria beeing so freaking easy? do you want mobs to become static with no attack or interaction whatsoever? This is the mentality that drove anet to the mess they are in now, with no clear direction and all sort of players leaving, first they lost almost all pvpers, now they are loosing hardcore pvers, soon they will only have open world bots running around playing for a few months and quitting out of boredom, and all of the ones playing fashion wars standing still in the bank...

its pretty easy: we liked core, and thats what we want MORE of...not something ENTIRELY DIFFERENTquitting the game AFTER you played it, out of BOREDOM, is still better than quitting BEFORE the endif you made a meal for all you friends, and they all put down the fork after one bite, it prolly wasnt that greatbut if they clear the table in record time, and ask for MORE, then it has the quality, that people wil PAY for

Average players love HoT and find core laughably easy. We want more HoT.

Unless you've got a mouse in your pocket, you don't speak for a plurality, and the mouse might not agree with you. I, for example, think HoT's maps are great because I personally enjoy exploration, and 3d maps that use the Z axis are usually things I like.

What I don't like are tedious mobs, and I draw a ten foot tall wall of concertina wire between what I call tedious and what I call challenging. Something being 'challenging' to tolerate is not the right kind of challenge, and I've been finding too many mobs of HoT's design to be irritations, not fun challenges, since day 1.

I want to see mobs with less cheesy supermassive AOE's and knockdown spam and ridiculous multi-hit attacks and more play/counterplay options that actually require tactics rather than negate most builds on most classes by making nothing useful or important to survival except lots of DPS, lots of dodging and as many HP or as much sustain as you can cram in there.

HoT mobs are some of the most boring things in the game to me because they're like a badly designed series of hurdles I have to jump every time I want to do something in HoT maps. They're not fun to deal with, and PoF didn't improve on this at all, but that's a different topic.

A lot of people will admit that HoT was designed to break the overworld Zerker meta. Low HP, minimal defense 100% glass cannon builds without a single utility slot spared to anything but moar damage was gold standard back in the day because it worked. You could get away with dodging as your only defense in core Tyria and usually be just fine.

HoT broke that meta alright...and replaced it with an equally boring but now actually necessary one. From HoT onwards, you need to do as much DPS as you can afford to do without sacrificing your mobility or your hp/sustain. You skimp on any of those and you're going to have a bad time.

...Unless you zerg up. Group up in HoT and you trivialize the entire expansion except for the zone metas, which are the only content that poses even the slightest amount of challenge through requirements of coordination to the players. And the coordination requirements are minimal, but still sufficient to see disorganized AB metas fail on the reg.

A whole lot of time clearly went into crafting the mechanics and AI on HoT's mobs, and grouping up in even just a small group deletes the point of that effort completely.

Who is actually challenged by HoT mobs? Solo players are, and a solo player that builds for high DPS, high mobility and high HP/sustain will find most HoT mobs to be tedious, not difficult. If your class has good utilities for missile reflect/durable blocks, you can sleep your way through most of HoT and get some of the worst mobs to kill themselves on your missile reflects.

But if you don't build for mobility, hp/sustain and as much DPS as you can shove in...you're gonna have a bad time. There's only one correct way to build for soloing around HoT maps, and unlike the problem with vanilla's Zerker meta wherein which you were rewarded for quick kills and maximum mob tagging by sacrificing everthing for more dps and more aoe, HoT rewards no build strategy except what I've been talking about at all.

Your reward in HoT for building and gearing for high dps, mobility and hp/sustain is that you turn challenge into tedium. You don't get a positive reward for it. You arguably don't get rewarded at all because building right for HoT trivializes most of it and renders even the cheesed-up challenge to be nothing more than irritation of having to deal with this boring drek on your way to whatever it was you actually wanted to do.

Positive rewards are for zergs. Some of the most rewarding content in this entire game are AB and LS4 metas...whiiiiich are done in big zergy lightballs.

Zerg to win has been a cornerstone of this game since day 1. I'm not even against it - there's no barrier to entry, even a total doofus can get in on that and contribute something and at the end, everyone gets their inventory full of whacky junk and we all feel chuffed because who doesn't like sorting their loot and making a few more G?

HoT requires three zergs to coordinate a little bit. That's challenging for random 'We might as well give it a try since its happening' groups, but no challenge at all for anyone coordinating things.

So where exactly is the challenge of HoT that we all supposedly want more of, because I just don't see it. What I do see are annoying mobs that hit too hard with multi-attacks, AoE fields the size of small nations, DoTs that are treated like special effects that you can't cleanse with your cleansing powers and knockdown spam. Conditions you can't cleanse and knockdown spam are especially obnoxious because those specifically target counterplay options and throw them in the dumpster - you can't do anything about them no matter how you gear, build or play. They remove player agency and negate what little purpose there is in building a character for the content, because you're just going to get uncleansable dots and chained knockdowns spammed on you by various mobs anyway, and the only counterplay option you have?

Roll around in a zerg. It's all trivialized to the point of virtual non-existence in a zerg.

That's supposed to be fun challenge? I don't agree. And I, at least, don't want more of that.

[WorldofBay.8160]

@"naiasonod.9265" said:So where exactly is the challenge of HoT that we all supposedly want more of, because I just don't see it. What I do see are annoying mobs that hit too hard with multi-attacks, AoE fields the size of small nations, DoTs that are treated like special effects that you can't cleanse with your cleansing powers and knockdown spam. Conditions you can't cleanse and knockdown spam are especially obnoxious because those specifically target counterplay options and throw them in the dumpster - you can't do anything about them no matter how you gear, build or play. They remove player agency and negate what little purpose there is in building a character for the content, because you're just going to get uncleansable dots and chained knockdowns spammed on you by various mobs anyway, and the only counterplay option you have?

huh what? which dots are you talking about?knockdown spam has 3 counterplay options:

1. kite from distance with high dps
2. have a high sustain so you can afk while laying around
3. spam stability, aegis and dodgein HoT all three work fairly well, so i don'T see your "only 1 option" thing. not to mention that your mentioned option is basically having everything at maximum which isn't possible...

AoE fields the size of small nations? i never had a problem with ground denial (except the shroom hp in tangled depths) in HoT and i run full melee. i, however, do have a ground denial problem in PoF, so i find that content a lot more tedious even if it is easier.

[battledrone.8315]

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@Cuks.8241 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:go to any mmo and find a super easy mission with a good reward. its gonna cramped with players there.now go to the endgame zones with all the HARDCORE content, and see if you can find even a handful of players.fast and easy sells, slow and hard not so much.

Interesting that Hot is consistently populated with players for years now, at least one map for meta at any gives time of day and packed on busy hours. That you can get a fractal group of any difficulty in 1 minute anytime and even dungeons are not an issue after all this time.Core Tyria, kinda empty.

grinding masteries does take a lot of time in the same maps, unlike core, where they are spread out over many more mapsand if core really IS that empty, then the game is dying. like any society, an mmo simply NEEDS new blood to survive.with over a mio sold boxes, there shouldnt just be ONE instance, there should be many more...where are they?if we set player cap at 200 per map, there should be roughly 500 instances of hot, for it to be successfuland that is only breaking even, if it actually was a BIG HIT, they would need many more

It's a good thing HoT is a thing then! If the game were all like core, it'd be dead by now! Who's going to play such easy, generic trash? LoL

youd better hope, that there are many , or hot will die too.and if hot had just a fraction of cores qualities, then they would be far better off

[battledrone.8315]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:it is F2P, so one doesnt equal the other anymore. you could prolly play F2P games the rest of your life without ever paying a dime for it.but the devs still need to eat, so they NEED to convert F2Pers into customers.so, even as a F2P game, core still needs to be good. if it isnt, then people wont pay for the expansionsand the ending of core is still horrible. if you liked the rest of of core, you will prolly HATE the end.it is almost the same problem, as the jump from core to hot...a total change in style and gameplay

You are absolutely right it's up to the core game to be good enough to convert players into paying customers. But since 30% of accounts haven't left the tutorial zones and 50-60% of the accounts haven't reached this "ending of core" you talk about, it's easy to say that core has trouble converting players. Meaning those "that liked the rest of core" are a small percentage of total accounts.

i doubt those numbers are true, they are much better, than blizzard ever had. that would mean 5-6 MIO potential buyers for hot...where are they now?

The numbers are the "absolute maximum" using achievement point totals. The actual numbers are much lower indeed because a lot of players actually went after achievements during their time in the game, meaning they had more in total when they got bored of the core game and left.

1,5 mio players would be industry standard, and that is roughly what they got. a number that actually could be much better, if the ending of core wasnt so bad.

As explained already, it's the beginning of core that is the problem, not the ending. The beginning and mid part of core is where the largest drop off of accounts is in this game. The number of players retained would've been much higher if the early core game was better. Given how even on release the vast majority of players were playing in Orr (the "ending of core" as you call it) and the rest of the game became a wasteland early on, we can easily conclude that the ending of core was never a problem, maybe only for a tiny fraction of the playerbase like yourself, but not of any significant number of actual players

if those numbers are true, then hot is even worse, since core has outperformed wow by a huge marginand you never explained, where all the missing instances where either.a successful hot would need 500 POPULATED instances....but youre happy to find just ONE ...lol

[battledrone.8315]

@"Master Ketsu.4569" said:What a lot of people who claim to be advocating for "casuals" here don't seem to understand is that asking the game be dumbed down to meet the lowest common denominator of skill, with the rationale that "casuals are paying customers too!!1111oneone!!!", is that this kind of demand is actually extremely selfish.

To understand why this is selfish, simply employ some basic logic and reasoning:

Lets say a game is too hard for the bottom skill floor , we will just say -10% of the playerbase. These bottom players essentially have two main options that will allow them to progress through and enjoy the game:

1. Stop being lazy and put in the time to actually learn their class.
2. Find another game that meets their skill level

Now, lets say the Devs decide to pander to the bottom 10% of the playerbase, and dumb the game down so that it is now entirely playable for everyone regardless of skill level. But as a result the game is now mind numbingly and disgustingly boring for the top 10% of the playerbase. These top players essentially have one option:

1. Find another game that meets their skill level

Notice the problem here? Good players cant make themselves "forget" how to play and become bad just so they can enjoy content that has gone through the diaper-and-binky treatment. Unlike lesser skilled players, who absolutely can become better if they just put in a little effort. There are many reasons behind why pandering to the lesser skilled crowd is often bad, but this is the most crucial. When a casual cries that the game is too hard, what they are effectively asking for is for the devs to ruin the game for everyone else.

And in the case of GW2 and HoT especially, this is wholly unfounded. HoT despite being the hardest of OW maps is still very easily soloable by just about anyone who has perfected their class and gone through endgame. If it was any easier, it would be just be pandering.

good luck with that. "perfecting their class" is not what casuals do. and the core game didnt set up for that either.it is basically a different GAME. not much of an expansion

[maddoctor.2738]

@battledrone.8315 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:it is F2P, so one doesnt equal the other anymore. you could prolly play F2P games the rest of your life without ever paying a dime for it.but the devs still need to eat, so they NEED to convert F2Pers into customers.so, even as a F2P game, core still needs to be good. if it isnt, then people wont pay for the expansionsand the ending of core is still horrible. if you liked the rest of of core, you will prolly HATE the end.it is almost the same problem, as the jump from core to hot...a total change in style and gameplay

You are absolutely right it's up to the core game to be good enough to convert players into paying customers. But since 30% of accounts haven't left the tutorial zones and 50-60% of the accounts haven't reached this "ending of core" you talk about, it's easy to say that core has trouble converting players. Meaning those "that liked the rest of core" are a small percentage of total accounts.

i doubt those numbers are true, they are much better, than blizzard ever had. that would mean 5-6 MIO potential buyers for hot...where are they now?

The numbers are the "absolute maximum" using achievement point totals. The actual numbers are much lower indeed because a lot of players actually went after achievements during their time in the game, meaning they had more in total when they got bored of the core game and left.

1,5 mio players would be industry standard, and that is roughly what they got. a number that actually could be much better, if the ending of core wasnt so bad.

As explained already, it's the beginning of core that is the problem, not the ending. The beginning and mid part of core is where the largest drop off of accounts is in this game. The number of players retained would've been much higher if the early core game was better. Given how even on release the vast majority of players were playing in Orr (the "ending of core" as you call it) and the rest of the game became a wasteland early on, we can easily conclude that the ending of core was never a problem, maybe only for a tiny fraction of the playerbase like yourself, but not of any significant number of actual players

if those numbers are true, then hot is even worse, since core has outperformed wow by a huge margin

How/when did core outperform wow? You have official wow numbers?

and you never explained, where all the missing instances where either.a successful hot would need 500 POPULATED instances....but youre happy to find just ONE ...lol

Given how the game, at its best, had 400k concurrent players, when it sold 3 million copies in just 4 months, it's safe to assume that the number of populated instances required for a "Successful hot" would only be a tiny fraction of that, since the majority of players stopped playing the game thanks to the core.

By the way, how do you know how many populated instances the game has across all its maps and zones?

[kharmin.7683]

@"maddoctor.2738" said:

Given how the game, at its best, had 400k concurrent players, when it sold 3 million copies in just 4 months, it's safe to assume that the number of populated instances required for a "Successful hot" would only be a tiny fraction of that, since the majority of players stopped playing the game thanks to the core.You know that the majority of players that quit was due to core... how?

[maddoctor.2738]

@kharmin.7683 said:

@"maddoctor.2738" said:

Given how the game, at its best, had 400k concurrent players, when it sold 3 million copies in just 4 months, it's safe to assume that the number of populated instances required for a "Successful hot" would only be a tiny fraction of that, since the majority of players stopped playing the game thanks to the core.You know that the majority of players that quit was due to core... how?

There are multiple ways to count players (or to be more accurate, accounts), one such hint is the fact that 50% of the total game's accounts have less than 268 Achievement Points. Which means these player accounts stopped a very long time before reaching HOT (or even the end game of Core for that matter) And that of course doesn't include all those players that quit the game much later after accumulating a lot of achievement points, by playing the game more actively. And still quit long before the expansion even hit.