Heal renegade (Harrier's) or Boon support (Berserker/Diviner's)?

[RaidsAreEasyAF.8652]

@Nephalem.8921 said:And then breakrazor dies or gets cc'd. Party can also die to condi spam thanks to incredible energy costs on those skills. Healren only works with good players, fb can hardcarry.

I have never seen Breakrazors die before players do. CC can be an issue. Some work and some dont. The Spirits donw always care. Breakrazors halfes the amount Condi Damage you take. If you really have to cleanse you can use Staff 4 to cleanse 2 condtions. Your tablet will cleanse another 3. Already 5 conditions cleansed, you still take half damage and if you really have to you can use your tablet again.

[lare.5129]

@"Cyninja.2954" said:In that case, please make clear that you are talking about absolute bottom skill level players in T4.if you not ask 200kp - it is absolute bottom skill. Aslo if player link it - that absolute not gurantee that player with near bottom level.

No group with players who have a basic understanding of this game should be the target for 3 healer setups in 5 man groups for NORMAL T4s.k, make it not 3, realy it is 2.5. Keep point that scourge heal in raid sup biuld can do good dps.

If people can't survive with 2 healers (which is already 1 healer more than needed, but let's assume it's a day with difficult instabilities), they need to reevaluate how they approach content, and maybe not face tank every single attack.yes, they need. And you can say that them and leave .. O make chill run wihtout any toxic.

to actually play with random players for regular PUGs.absolutely true, and absolutely wrong. regular PUGs have very wide sides .. There is regular toxic pugs for cms, and chill t4 run where people ask "t4 heal dps". Do not try merge it.

[Taedan.5786]

Im loving this discussion guys. Its really insightful. Do you think its easier to command a run (fractal, raid or strike) on a heal or a boon support specced rev?

[lare.5129]

@Linken.6345 said:Only place 3 healer is needed is needed so far is overheal boneskinner strike mission mate but thats out of 10 opeople so 1½ in fractals should be enough for everyone =POn my runs boneskinner sometimes do common with 5 healers setup. Minimal count 4. So it we do calculiation by % it is as I say 2.52hfb alacheal scrourge druid. Sometimes one of hfb swap to qfb

[Nephalem.8921]

@RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

@Nephalem.8921 said:And then breakrazor dies or gets cc'd. Party can also die to condi spam thanks to incredible energy costs on those skills. Healren only works with good players, fb can hardcarry.

I have never seen Breakrazors die before players do. CC can be an issue. Some work and some dont. The Spirits donw always care. Breakrazors halfes the amount Condi Damage you take. If you really have to cleanse you can use Staff 4 to cleanse 2 condtions. Your tablet will cleanse another 3. Already 5 conditions cleansed, you still take half damage and if you really have to you can use your tablet again.

Some aoes ignore the pet dmg reduction like flux bomb or mai trin fields.

[Radnor.4185]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@lare.5129 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:There is absolutely no reasoning to assume getting cleric is "easier" on trinkets. Not with the amount of ascended trinkets in all those living worlds season 3, 4 and 5 mapsIf have ls3 ls4 yes. If not - and want go fractal NOW, not next day the way is get setup per day is change arrmor stats to harrier, and use cleric juve.After some time ofc some cleric change to harrier till 100% boon duration. I am talk about "one day preparation biuld"

If you are running a "chill" T4 group and regular supports are not sufficient, chance are very high players will not be stacked well enough to make use of a healing renegade. In that case, drop the alacrity, get a healbrand/druid/heal scourge.As I say sometimes we need healrabnd, healrene and heal scourge and 2 dps. Because without 3 heals that dps die each 20 seconds. All depend from skill. In chill guild run we otfen use 3 supports + 2 dps setup

This is NOT meta. This is normal common non speed chill run with giuld members or pugs wihtout kp.

Sorry, but you shouldn't ever need 3 healers to survive normal T4 fractals. I have never seen a PUG group require 3 healers (then again, I often would go heal scourge in the past. Last few months I've only run CMs +T4, so maybe PUG groups have become this terrible).

Drop all those healers and take a heal scourge if the group performance is that bad. It will both prove a far better carry and you are free to take up to 4 dps which cuts encounter time (and thus damage taken) significantly. Or make a 5 scourge group to cheese the content.

That's actually one of the biggest mistakes weak groups make: assume more healing will make fractals easier, when in fact, it often makes it worse. Having enough damage to clear regular enemies in normal T4s is a huge aspect of reducing damage taken to the group.

Do you have a link for your scourge build? Its still strong after the last few months? Which gear do you use?

[Cyninja.2954]

@Radnor.4185 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@lare.5129 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:There is absolutely no reasoning to assume getting cleric is "easier" on trinkets. Not with the amount of ascended trinkets in all those living worlds season 3, 4 and 5 mapsIf have ls3 ls4 yes. If not - and want go fractal NOW, not next day the way is get setup per day is change arrmor stats to harrier, and use cleric juve.After some time ofc some cleric change to harrier till 100% boon duration. I am talk about "one day preparation biuld"

If you are running a "chill" T4 group and regular supports are not sufficient, chance are very high players will not be stacked well enough to make use of a healing renegade. In that case, drop the alacrity, get a healbrand/druid/heal scourge.As I say sometimes we need healrabnd, healrene and heal scourge and 2 dps. Because without 3 heals that dps die each 20 seconds. All depend from skill. In chill guild run we otfen use 3 supports + 2 dps setup

This is NOT meta. This is normal common non speed chill run with giuld members or pugs wihtout kp.

Sorry, but you shouldn't ever need 3 healers to survive normal T4 fractals. I have never seen a PUG group require 3 healers (then again, I often would go heal scourge in the past. Last few months I've only run CMs +T4, so maybe PUG groups have become this terrible).

Drop all those healers and take a heal scourge if the group performance is that bad. It will both prove a far better carry and you are free to take up to 4 dps which cuts encounter time (and thus damage taken) significantly. Or make a 5 scourge group to cheese the content.

That's actually one of the biggest mistakes weak groups make: assume more healing will make fractals easier, when in fact, it often makes it worse. Having enough damage to clear regular enemies in normal T4s is a huge aspect of reducing damage taken to the group.

Do you have a link for your scourge build? Its still strong after the last few months? Which gear do you use?

You can use the metabattle build as baseline: https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Scourge_-_Support_Healer

Things to note first and foremost:

1. running scourge is NOT meta in fractals, due to lack of boons, and there will be players who might refuse to group here
2. this is a strong carry for weak players because it can out-heal pretty much most things thrown at the group. This still requires some competence on the heal scourges part
3. taking a heal scourge, or heal tempest, in fractals is recommended over taking 2-3 healers. Then again, groups that take 2 or 3 healers will likely benefit of reducing those slots to 1 healer as far as party dps is concerned

If considering trying this build, I would probably start with the Magi variant in T2 or T3 fractals to get a feel for the build, plus the benefit here is that exotic magi gear is very easy to acquire (armor and weapons off the TP), trinkets can be gained via the usual places like Living World content.

Or go strait for the hybrid build, though that gear will be more expensive.

Make sure to read the notes on traits, since some of the traits can greatly change how this build plays, most notably Harbinger Shroud, which is a very strong aoe barrier, but creates a huge yellow circle below the Shade and the necromancer indicating when the barrier triggers. This requires the necromancer to have a good understanding of mechanics because his visibility on ground effects will be impaired (I would recommend to start with Desert Empowerment over Harbinger Shroud since it is easier to use, even if I personally prefer Harbinger myself).

[Radnor.4185]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Radnor.4185 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@lare.5129 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:There is absolutely no reasoning to assume getting cleric is "easier" on trinkets. Not with the amount of ascended trinkets in all those living worlds season 3, 4 and 5 mapsIf have ls3 ls4 yes. If not - and want go fractal NOW, not next day the way is get setup per day is change arrmor stats to harrier, and use cleric juve.After some time ofc some cleric change to harrier till 100% boon duration. I am talk about "one day preparation biuld"

If you are running a "chill" T4 group and regular supports are not sufficient, chance are very high players will not be stacked well enough to make use of a healing renegade. In that case, drop the alacrity, get a healbrand/druid/heal scourge.As I say sometimes we need healrabnd, healrene and heal scourge and 2 dps. Because without 3 heals that dps die each 20 seconds. All depend from skill. In chill guild run we otfen use 3 supports + 2 dps setup

This is NOT meta. This is normal common non speed chill run with giuld members or pugs wihtout kp.

Sorry, but you shouldn't ever need 3 healers to survive normal T4 fractals. I have never seen a PUG group require 3 healers (then again, I often would go heal scourge in the past. Last few months I've only run CMs +T4, so maybe PUG groups have become this terrible).

Drop all those healers and take a heal scourge if the group performance is that bad. It will both prove a far better carry and you are free to take up to 4 dps which cuts encounter time (and thus damage taken) significantly. Or make a 5 scourge group to cheese the content.

That's actually one of the biggest mistakes weak groups make: assume more healing will make fractals easier, when in fact, it often makes it worse. Having enough damage to clear regular enemies in normal T4s is a huge aspect of reducing damage taken to the group.

Do you have a link for your scourge build? Its still strong after the last few months? Which gear do you use?

You can use the metabattle build as baseline:

https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Scourge_-_Support_Healer

Things to note first and foremost:

1. running scourge is NOT meta in fractals, due to lack of boons, and there will be players who might refuse to group here
2. this is a strong carry for weak players because it can out-heal pretty much most things thrown at the group. This still requires some competence on the heal scourges part
3. taking a heal scourge, or heal tempest, in fractals is recommended over taking 2-3 healers. Then again, groups that take 2 or 3 healers will likely benefit of reducing those slots to 1 healer as far as party dps is concerned

If considering trying this build, I would probably start with the Magi variant in T2 or T3 fractals to get a feel for the build, plus the benefit here is that exotic magi gear is very easy to acquire (armor and weapons off the TP), trinkets can be gained via the usual places like Living World content.

Or go strait for the hybrid build, though that gear will be more expensive.

Make sure to read the notes on traits, since some of the traits can greatly change how this build plays, most notably Harbinger Shroud, which is a very strong aoe barrier, but creates a huge yellow circle below the Shade and the necromancer indicating when the barrier triggers. This requires the necromancer to have a good understanding of mechanics because his visibility on ground effects will be impaired (I would recommend to start with Desert Empowerment over Harbinger Shroud since it is easier to use, even if I personally prefer Harbinger myself).

Thanks for the in depth explanation, really hard to come by; most people just advise me to run a random dps profession ;D. Which exact gear combination are you talking about in a hybrid build? Ministrel, Apothecary, a combination between prefixes?

[Cyninja.2954]

@Radnor.4185 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Radnor.4185 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@lare.5129 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:There is absolutely no reasoning to assume getting cleric is "easier" on trinkets. Not with the amount of ascended trinkets in all those living worlds season 3, 4 and 5 mapsIf have ls3 ls4 yes. If not - and want go fractal NOW, not next day the way is get setup per day is change arrmor stats to harrier, and use cleric juve.After some time ofc some cleric change to harrier till 100% boon duration. I am talk about "one day preparation biuld"

If you are running a "chill" T4 group and regular supports are not sufficient, chance are very high players will not be stacked well enough to make use of a healing renegade. In that case, drop the alacrity, get a healbrand/druid/heal scourge.As I say sometimes we need healrabnd, healrene and heal scourge and 2 dps. Because without 3 heals that dps die each 20 seconds. All depend from skill. In chill guild run we otfen use 3 supports + 2 dps setup

This is NOT meta. This is normal common non speed chill run with giuld members or pugs wihtout kp.

Sorry, but you shouldn't ever need 3 healers to survive normal T4 fractals. I have never seen a PUG group require 3 healers (then again, I often would go heal scourge in the past. Last few months I've only run CMs +T4, so maybe PUG groups have become this terrible).

Drop all those healers and take a heal scourge if the group performance is that bad. It will both prove a far better carry and you are free to take up to 4 dps which cuts encounter time (and thus damage taken) significantly. Or make a 5 scourge group to cheese the content.

That's actually one of the biggest mistakes weak groups make: assume more healing will make fractals easier, when in fact, it often makes it worse. Having enough damage to clear regular enemies in normal T4s is a huge aspect of reducing damage taken to the group.

Do you have a link for your scourge build? Its still strong after the last few months? Which gear do you use?

You can use the metabattle build as baseline:

https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Scourge_-_Support_Healer

Things to note first and foremost:

1. running scourge is NOT meta in fractals, due to lack of boons, and there will be players who might refuse to group here
2. this is a strong carry for weak players because it can out-heal pretty much most things thrown at the group. This still requires some competence on the heal scourges part
3. taking a heal scourge, or heal tempest, in fractals is recommended over taking 2-3 healers. Then again, groups that take 2 or 3 healers will likely benefit of reducing those slots to 1 healer as far as party dps is concerned

If considering trying this build, I would probably start with the Magi variant in T2 or T3 fractals to get a feel for the build, plus the benefit here is that exotic magi gear is very easy to acquire (armor and weapons off the TP), trinkets can be gained via the usual places like Living World content.

Or go strait for the hybrid build, though that gear will be more expensive.

Make sure to read the notes on traits, since some of the traits can greatly change how this build plays, most notably Harbinger Shroud, which is a very strong aoe barrier, but creates a huge yellow circle below the Shade and the necromancer indicating when the barrier triggers. This requires the necromancer to have a good understanding of mechanics because his visibility on ground effects will be impaired (I would recommend to start with Desert Empowerment over Harbinger Shroud since it is easier to use, even if I personally prefer Harbinger myself).

Thanks for the in depth explanation, really hard to come by; most people just advise me to run a random dps profession ;D. Which exact gear combination are you talking about in a hybrid build? Ministrel, Apothecary, a combination between prefixes?

It's the second build in the link with Marshal/Shaman Variant gear. One could also use Plaguedoctor in some slots, essentially trading Marshal's Power and Precision for Vitality (still useful on heal necro) and Boon duration (not as useful on heal necro, though not useless).

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

@"BRNBRITO.9624" said:Even though Heal ren + Quickbrand is better than Healbrand + Diviner ren, most people don't know/understand that and just copy whatever they see the most, so Diviner is your best bet for PvE.

This isn't true for fractals. Even in raids (but you'd want a druid anyway).Yes, on paper, you win DPS against a golem; but in situation you lose a lot of utilities or you need to reconsider roles for alls and lose DPS.

If you play Ventari/Kalla you can apply perma alacrity, more Mights as you can take LL over RR, and healing, bubble etc. But you'll lose Charged mist(Invocation traitline) and so less soulcleave's summit or CC; or Assassin's Presence (Devastation traitline); you'll bring less "power"buffs overall. While HFB can still play with Bane signet.Then, it starts to be complicated when you need to bring Stab or you need to bring boonstrip (Skorvald, chaos, instabilities with boons, some encounters with boons) because you need to change a legend for Jalis or Mallyx and so you lose a big part of the support, your main build is ruined.Or you ask your qFB or DH to bring a lot of stab, (mantra/shouts/f3 are less convenient than jalis on Skorvald for example) the war to go Spb, or you have a reaper may be, or a chrono etc, to remove boons ; it's already unnecessarily complicated and annoying.Plus, hFB has a faster and easier access to a burst of heal or aegis, cleanse, stab, anti-proj, etc without breaking rotation and role for too long, while Ren can be stuck with low energy, or legend swap's CD the desired moment.Plus, you should prefer the extra BD of a hFB rather than a healRen; Fury/mights can be very low with a qFB in pug, same for quickness on differents phases or with a lazy ren (and quickness > alacrity) same for stab, resistance ...Plus if you think spirits are not worth : delete the ren and take a DPS. Ren is not a cushynumber only for the "sacred and mandatory" alacrity. (But I got you, most of people won't believe it and still ask for the laziest ren ever rather than a DPS)HealFb+(diviner)Ren is a safer and stronger choice, because it responds to more situations overall : differents compositions, fractals, instabilities, differents skill levels of players.

I'm okai, most of people c/p compositions or build without really knowing why at the moment.For exemple Ren+Fb was already a thing at PoF release even before Diviner gear, easier and with a stronger package of utilities than Chrono+druid; but it takes months and videos of sacred guilds for players to understand it and stop laughing at you.Lesson : they understand it with time, experience and of course testimony/explanation.Lesson 2 : there is nothing to understand of "Heal ren + Quickbrand", because we already have the experience to say the opposite is a better choice almost everywhere. At least for PUG.

If you play with static you should consider no healer at all.FB's tome of resolve #4+#5 + breakrazor + soulcleave's summit = overheal without losing any buff and dps. You don't need Ventari.

[BRNBRITO.9624]

@"Zhaid Zhem.6508" said:This isn't true for fractals. Even in raids (but you'd want a druid anyway).Yes, on paper, you win DPS against a golem; but in situation you lose a lot of utilities or you need to reconsider roles for alls and lose DPS.Was a pretty short comment and forgot to say i was more of a Fractal player.

Not sure how much changed but NA was basically 99% HB/DivRen/BS/2DPS for pugs, and HealRen + QB always was/is more dps than that AFAIK (highest dps being no healer at all), but people tend to just copy/paste builds with 0% BD and trying to memorize a 1-2-3 rotation when things are not that simple, and that's when it goes downhill, can't just copy-paste if you don't have the same experience/awareness and realistically pull 50% of golem benchmark and constantly get lost on skill priorities.

No doubt that HB + DivRen is more convenient to just run through stuff daily when pugging, but about "win dps against a golem and lose utility" it'll depend on what kind of parties are people playing with as well as what fractals/instabilities, there's no point running so much support when bosses are basically perma-cc'd and phases are just a few seconds, which is true for a lot of Fractals, but indeed it's a lot of difference from group to group, i remember so much people would get stuck on Siren's Reef last boss because they just refuse to adapt and change a skill/trait... One fractal that a lot of support/survivability is always welcome IMO is Mai Trin.

Crazy stab uptime on Skorrvald also isn't really needed if people know what they're doing, the anomalies barely have time to attack once, and 33% phase is fast enough that just F3 Tome on QB was enough stab, definitely harder if people are doing 10k ish dps, but the dps checks to skip mechs on GW2 tend to be easy.

I guess there isn't much of a TL;DR, you need to know how to adapt to every situation by knowing the fractal/instabs, your class as well as other classes and what can others bring in case you're stuck or having a hard time with something, gearing is easy once you're doing Fractals/Raids so it's always worth a shot trying build variations of a class you already know the basics, as well as gearing other classes and learning them even if just a little bit, and experience will come with time.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

@BRNBRITO.9624 said:

@"Zhaid Zhem.6508" said:This isn't true for fractals. Even in raids (but you'd want a druid anyway).Yes, on paper, you win DPS against a golem; but in situation you lose a lot of utilities or you need to reconsider roles for alls and lose DPS.Was a pretty short comment and forgot to say i was more of a Fractal player.

Not sure how much changed but NA was basically 99% HB/DivRen/BS/2DPS for pugs, and HealRen + QB always was/is more dps than that AFAIK (highest dps being no healer at all), but people tend to just copy/paste builds with 0% BD and trying to memorize a 1-2-3 rotation when things are not that simple, and that's when it goes downhill, can't just copy-paste if you don't have the same experience/awareness and realistically pull 50% of golem benchmark and constantly get lost on skill priorities.

No doubt that HB + DivRen is more convenient to just run through stuff daily when pugging, but about "win dps against a golem and lose utility" it'll depend on what kind of parties are people playing with as well as what fractals/instabilities, there's no point running so much support when bosses are basically perma-cc'd and phases are just a few seconds, which is true for a lot of Fractals, but indeed it's a lot of difference from group to group, i remember so much people would get stuck on Siren's Reef last boss because they just refuse to adapt and change a skill/trait... One fractal that a lot of support/survivability is always welcome IMO is Mai Trin.

Crazy stab uptime on Skorrvald also isn't really needed if people know what they're doing, the anomalies barely have time to attack once, and 33% phase is fast enough that just F3 Tome on QB was enough stab, definitely harder if people are doing 10k ish dps, but the dps checks to skip mechs on GW2 tend to be easy.

I guess there isn't much of a TL;DR, you need to know how to adapt to every situation by knowing the fractal/instabs, your class as well as other classes and what can others bring in case you're stuck or having a hard time with something, gearing is easy once you're doing Fractals/Raids so it's always worth a shot trying build variations of a class you already know the basics, as well as gearing other classes and learning them even if just a little bit, and experience will come with time.

The point is not that I, or you,

need to know how to adapt to every situation by knowing the fractal/instabs, your class as well as other classes and what can others bring in case you're stuck or having a hard time with something....But how much you trust others to do the same.

If you trust everyone, you don't need healren at all for cms ; ventari is counterproductive, you don't need to waste 10sec on ventari and a trailine for scholar threshold or cleanse you already have otherwise.If you don't trust enough players, who for a good part got carried until 250kp and beyond (but it's not the intention, it's just the pug meta) you better want margins of error and an accessible package of utilities in scheduled roles before noticing daily fractals, instabilities and inexperience/laziness of somes, rather than lack of alacrity, or/and so quickness, mights, fury, buffs, cc, dps and debate in each fractals who does what, what gear, what classes ...

May be it depends in what you means it's better. In a miracle world with invested, smart and supportive players, perhaps.

After years of pugs, of "metas", and thousands of runs you don't live in this world anymore.

[DKRathalos.9625]

I'll just throw vote for Boon Support Diviner Renegade.