Balance: Thief vs Ranger

[kash.9213]

@Eventine.8024 said:Simple question: I want to play thief rifle in WvW, but when I battle with any other class, ranger for example, this happens:Ranger has more mobilityRanger has more stealthRanger has more healingRanger has more burst and damage over timeLongbow vs rifle (or short bot): rapid fire kills everything, while rifle and short bow do insignificant damage. Rapid fire keep hitting even if i'm in stealthRanger has invulnerable, ranger has pet, ranger has amazing down skill.Ranger has stabilityThief has boon strip.How this is balanced? Why Dev has this amazing game and still manage to ruin it every patch? Where is WvW alliance system?I play gw2 since betaweekend 1, and it's already 2 years I lost faith in you.

Eventine

Thief isn't as forgiving, you don't want anything landing on you and you have to be deliberate and follow through on every little thing, there's no fire and forget, even with condi bombs. Thief has some build options though and I feel like we can use more of the kits lately, at least in WvW.

Get Shortbow auto bounces going if you're not using it's other slots and keep it going until you force a rush that you can interrupt and close distance. Shortbow is great utility on nearly every slot that can be sneaky deadly like it's auto bounce.

You should load up enough secondary mods on your Rifle opener/go-to-combo that go off from interrupts or blinds or whatever to inundate people while you walk into or out of a fight and get used to using Kneel.

[ASP.8093]

I mean, you're welcome to play Ranger -- if you've got ascended gear, most of it will even transfer over -- if you think it's a superior class. I've certainly changed classes for similar reasons before (Mesmer to Thief, if you're curious).

I've been tempted from time to time, because Ranger certainly is a nice class for making people explode real quick when you roll through your combo. But burst ranger just doesn't bring much else to the table, ime: their active mitigation has obvious gaps (compared to, e.g., holo's), they don't do well when pressured, and ime when they pick me off it's usually in a situation where their side is already advantaged and a thief or mesmer could've melted me just as fast. I find that I do better outnumbered and have an easier time supporting my server-mates strategically (including roaming rangers) as thief.

[Swagger.1459]

@UNOwen.7132

“On flat ground (which WvW has a lot of), Ranger does have more mobility. More stealth on the other hand, no, not even with trappers rune, but stealth is also pretty useless during a fight. Anyway a thief obviously cant win a 1v1 against a ranger”

Post a Ranger build that has more mobility than a Thief built for mobility...

What??? A Thief can’t beat a Ranger 1v1?

[Swagger.1459]

@Eventine.8024 said:Simple question: I want to play thief rifle in WvW, but when I battle with any other class, ranger for example, this happens:Ranger has more mobilityRanger has more stealthRanger has more healingRanger has more burst and damage over timeLongbow vs rifle (or short bot): rapid fire kills everything, while rifle and short bow do insignificant damage. Rapid fire keep hitting even if i'm in stealthRanger has invulnerable, ranger has pet, ranger has amazing down skill.Ranger has stabilityThief has boon strip.How this is balanced? Why Dev has this amazing game and still manage to ruin it every patch? Where is WvW alliance system?I play gw2 since betaweekend 1, and it's already 2 years I lost faith in you.

Eventine

Half of what you are saying isn’t true. If you are struggling fighting a Ranger on Thief then post your build in the Thief section and ask for tips.

[ASP.8093]

OK, I would prefer not to have the "let's race each other on flat ground to prove which class is the fastest!!" thing taint even more threads, plz. Let's just say Rangers are zoomy enough to make good roamers but Thieves are the ideal teleporting class and leave it at that.

~

Bonus post:

The funny thing about Rangers is how many I've killed by just blasting them off their mount with a bunch of Skirmisher's Shots and then popping Death's Judgement when they fall off. Every time I think to myself, "This is your trick, you kill people this way constantly, why do you not understand that just eating the damage til you get auto-CCed by the forced dismount animation is not a good plan?"

[Zyreva.1078]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@UmbraNoctis.1907 said:Ranger can not disengage from anything (certainly not from thief) unless successful stealth jukes are involved, especially when running lb.

Ranger can disengage from

everything

. Most classes struggle to keep up with being pushed back/rooted followed by Swoop into Swoop. Thief could, but then thief is cutting his own lifeline, and the ranger can just turn around and chop his head off.

And how can thief not ever win a fight when they have so many tools to counter whatever their opponent is trying to do (it is not like everyone is running a dedicated dueling or thief counter build)?

Because thief doesnt. Sure, thief can kill a lonely zerger, if he catches them without any teammates, but everyone can, zerg builds arent very good at fighting outside of zergs. But any roamer, by virtue of being a roamer, is at least good at dueling. And those fights thief just cant win. Thief has both lower survivability and damage than everyone else, thanks to sPvP balance. Sure they can endlessly reset, but every reset they just get their head kicked in before disengaging.

Having to land skills in oder to escape is never reliable and roots/cc work just as well against the ranger. And all a thief needs to stop a ranger from going anywhere is steal and headshot. Or steal and sword 2. Or steal and another port. Or headshot only if the ranger has no dolyak stance. Shadow Shot. Infiltrator Signet. Sb 5. Thief has tons of ways to stop or catch a running ranger without having to burn major defensive cds like shadowstep. Then there are other rangers. Revs with 1,2k range teleport on low cd + short range ports. War with gs and bull's charge. Mirage with ports and leaps to keep up (as well as ranged cc and boon rip). Necro with ranged cc and corrups to interrupt the leaps. Even D/D ele with lighting flash can be hard to escape from or dh with JI, tho those are rare. In fact, as long there is just a single player fast enough to keep the ranger in combat, anyone can catch up thanks to the mount (which is why stealth in addition to mobility is so valuable). And that's assuming the ranger does not run smokescale.

You dont have to land them, but if they avoid them, thats a bit of extra time youre gaining. Thieves steal is far too low range (Since most roamers are DD which as 600 range) to even stop your attempt. Same for the others. Now the others could work, but I addressed that. "Thief could, but then thief is cutting his own lifeline, and the ranger can just turn around and chop his head off.". If he invests that much into chasing you, he cant run away. Turn around and he dies. As for the others, by the time Rev gets his second teleport youre already long gone. Warrior might be possibly able to catch you, but theyre also very good at running away. Mirage has no chance, their ports and leaps are generally slow. Necro has no chance, youll be out of his ranged CC before he can get to you.

How do i gain anything because my knockback misses due to some random dodge or blind? And what immob are you talking about, most SlB don't have one, certainly not from range. And you seem to assume the ranger starts running before anything gets anywhere close, but that just means he does not get much opportunity to go offensive, nor is it realistic with mounts being a thing. Also means chasers and especially a thief will still have tools to avoid anything potential dangerous a ranger could throw at him with his GS, even after spending initiative/cds to catch up. In fact some gap closer themself will also shut down turn arround attemps. A shiro rev can absolutely catch up with a double leap ranger unless the running starts before the fight begins, as long the rev has a target. And how are mirage leaps and ports slow? Ports are instant, that's as fast as possible and their leaps aren't slower than a ranger's leaps (shorter range yes, but they can chain more mobility skills together than a lb ranger can, if the run sword which a lot of them don't admittedly. maybe even ports only would be enough if they burn all of them, tho that certainly leaves them vulnerable).

Now don't get me wrong. Ranger (or rather Soulbeast) still has great escape ability, better than most other classes for sure and sometimes you won't catch them. Will depend on exact builds, cds used and initial distance. But thief is just on a whole different level in this regard. And how can the class with the best dmg avoidance be the class with the worst survivability? And dmg of thief doesn't seem that bad either, certainly not worse than everything else, as dealing dmg isn't solely about numbers but also about how hard or easy it is to avoid. And how do your claims " any roamer, by virtue of being a roamer, is at least good at dueling" and "thief can't win fights" fit together when considering that the latter is probably the most common solo roaming class?

Because thief is in no way, shape or form "the class with the best damage avoidance"? Unless they ran away (in which case yeah, you cant hit them, but they cant hit you), then the most common type of theif in roaming, D/P thief, has no blocks, no invulns, and subpar evades (quite literally just one extra dodge from being a daredevil and daggerstorm if they run that), while having bad healing, low base stats and no damage reduction. S/D thief fares

mildly

better since it gets at least a decent amount of evades, but its still far below what any other class has. Compared to that Soulbeasts block, smokescale evade, high protection uptime and incredible healing (in the case of Boonbeast) or even sic em snipers mediocre protection uptime and still decent healing are just ridiculous. And thats not even getting into things like warrior or sword weaver.

How about blinds, interrups and stealth on top of the ability to constantly dip in and out of (melee) range? All with much higher frequency than other classes can use their defensive skills. Technically daredevil has access to block, but most prefer stealth/blinds. Guess those are better then? Only "one extra dodge" that adds mobility, soft cc removal and 10% dmg reduction on top? More dmg reduction from passives? Weakness? Stolen protection? 33% dmg reduction which nobody seems to use, maybe because thief doesn't actually need dmg reduction? Evade on Sb. Not even that bad healing when going for shadow rejuvenation, but most still opt for more stealth/blinds or straight dmg? Low base health gets compensated by marauder gear, base armor is the same as ranger's.Yes, ranger can use mara too and get even an even higher hp pool, however at a certain point stacking more health has diminishing value and it is better to just use zerker pieces or trade dmg for toughness. Ranger does not have access to invulnerability. I guess you are talking about SoS which is a dmg immunity and imo not worth running over other defensive utilities. Heals can be interrupted by headshot/steal. Protection and Stab can be stolen. And now you start talking about smokescale, but where does the mobility then come from? I mean, i do agree that smokescale is the best and most common pet for a power SlB when it comes to pure fighting, not just because of the dmg, cc, and evade it provides, but also because of ... stealth and blinds! But it does not offer mobility. Also boonbeast can be disgustingly tanky, but typically not the best burst and chase potential, so just walk away and ignore it or zerg it down if you can't handle it 1vs1 (that's something i still need to learn myself). It is mostly good at dueling where both sides commit to the fight. Luckily also not too common. Squishy pew pews are seen much more often. Weavers can also be fairly tanky, but then their dmg tends to drop significantly. Also often low mobility. Warriors feel weaker than thieves in pretty much every regard except it takes a few seconds longer to kill them when they are afk.

And damage-wise its pretty bad, and a lot worse than everything else. <5k backstabs, autoattacks that hit like wet noodles, shadowshots that hit for 2k-3k, the only good part is heartseeker, but you never get the enemy that low. And even with the "how easy it is to hit", Rapid Fire is a lot easier to hit, a lot harder to fully avoid, and does a lot more damage than everything Thief does. And its one skill. And youre right, thief is the exception. But thief is what they call a "noobstomper". Thief roamers hunt down worse players they can kill, and run away from anyone of equal or only slightly lower skill. A lame playstyle, but it gets the rewards.

Rapid Fire is easy to land if the enemy doesn't do anything to avoid it, but there is no excuse for getting hit by the full channel unless out of defensive cds. It is always telegraphed and not spammable. Just avoiding half of it will put it's dmg below backstab dmg. Everything else dangerous a ranger can throw at you, can also be interrupted, dodged, blinded, kited or avoided via stealth. And 5k backstab and 3k shadowshot aren't even that low dmg considering the frequency they can be used and the difficulity in reacting without wasting defensive cds due to having to rely on guessing. It is not like Mauls are going to hit for more on a regular basis (unless the ranger is a pure glass cannon - but then thief can also achive much higher numbers).And many thieves i see are happily engaging in fights including duels against decent players of any other class. Not always successful, but often enough. "Without a chance" looks a lot different and somehow i doubt that thief players are just generally better than players of other classes. That would be a pretty cocky assumption, no?

[GoldenPants.1870]

@ASP.8093 said:

@"Eventine.8024" said:Simple question: I want to play thief rifle in WvW, but when I battle with any other class, ranger for example, this happens:Ranger has more mobilityRanger has more stealthRanger has more healingRanger has more burst and damage over timeLongbow vs rifle (or short bot): rapid fire kills everything, while rifle and short bow do insignificant damage. Rapid fire keep hitting even if i'm in stealthRanger has invulnerable, ranger has pet, ranger has amazing down skill.Ranger has stabilityThief has boon strip.How this is balanced? Why Dev has this amazing game and still manage to ruin it every patch? Where is WvW alliance system?I play gw2 since betaweekend 1, and it's already 2 years I lost faith in you.

Eventine

• "Ranger has more stealth" — Ranger only has Hunter's Shot unless they're playing a pretty weak trapper build that will get eaten alive by Rifle pokes (they can't Power burst and they can't pull you into the traps like Dragonhunter can). And Druid has stealth on Celestial Avatar but fighting that build means you're not getting hit with massive burst from Soulbeast.Well, actually we have GS 3 through Smokefield from smokescale too.

Totally beats thieves tho. :^)

[Kovu.7560]

Thread: "The worst mobility spec on Thief has less mobility than rangers who somewhat invest in it."Me: "Well, yes."This seems like a troll thread. Nobody is actually that... erm... uninformed/out of touch.

Also, ranger traps are useless in wvw and only somewhat decent in low-ranked pvp. They haven't been worth the utility slots in half a decade. There's a reason people bitch about longbow/greatsword and not shortbow or... whatever else on ranger is supposed to use for condition damage.

~ Kovu

[saerni.2584]

@"Kovu.7560" said:Thread: "The worst mobility spec on Thief has less mobility than rangers who somewhat invest in it."Me: "Well, yes."This seems like a troll thread. Nobody is actually that... erm... uninformed/out of touch.

Also, ranger traps are useless in wvw and only somewhat decent in low-ranked pvp. They haven't been worth the utility slots in half a decade. There's a reason people kitten about longbow/greatsword and not shortbow or... whatever else on ranger is supposed to use for condition damage.

~ Kovu

I’ve seen like two or three decent ranger trap builds in the last few months.

Higher immobilize uptime and solid condi application.

But 90% of the rangers/soulbeasts (who runs Druid these days?) are some kind of ranged super spike or melee GS sustain.

I don’t mind rangers. As a thief, I can beat most rangers. They can spike high damage and so can I. Why would I complain if one outplayed me? My build isn’t fair to them any more than their build is unfair to me.

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

alone the thread title qualifies for beeing deleted. neither thief nor ranger matter a tiny bit in wvw, they should rather get hurting nerfs, so people stop playing them finally.

[Kovu.7560]

"[thing] doesn't matter a tiny bit.""they should nerf [thing]."

[KrHome.1920]

@saerni.2584 said:I’ve seen like two or three decent ranger trap builds in the last few months.

Higher immobilize uptime and solid condi application.

But 90% of the rangers/soulbeasts (who runs Druid these days?) are some kind of ranged super spike or melee GS sustain.

I don’t mind rangers. As a thief, I can beat most rangers. They can spike high damage and so can I. Why would I complain if one outplayed me? My build isn’t fair to them any more than their build is unfair to me.In EU smallscale druid is played as unkillable bunker to spam immobilize and it's cancer.

It's bit like conquest thief: can always escape (unless chased by at least 2 thieves for 2 minutes), has to be ignored, because it is the most durable build in its group, but has a huge impact on the fight, even though it is not damage. It also can deny stomps with an interrupt and stealth combo and then rez.

Rifle2 spamming deadeyes with condi duration gear and some cover condis can fulfill the same role in a smallscale group. Good luck when you are in a smallscale fight and such a build focusses you.

[UNOwen.7132]

@UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@UmbraNoctis.1907 said:Ranger can not disengage from anything (certainly not from thief) unless successful stealth jukes are involved, especially when running lb.

Ranger can disengage from

everything

. Most classes struggle to keep up with being pushed back/rooted followed by Swoop into Swoop. Thief could, but then thief is cutting his own lifeline, and the ranger can just turn around and chop his head off.

And how can thief not ever win a fight when they have so many tools to counter whatever their opponent is trying to do (it is not like everyone is running a dedicated dueling or thief counter build)?

Because thief doesnt. Sure, thief can kill a lonely zerger, if he catches them without any teammates, but everyone can, zerg builds arent very good at fighting outside of zergs. But any roamer, by virtue of being a roamer, is at least good at dueling. And those fights thief just cant win. Thief has both lower survivability and damage than everyone else, thanks to sPvP balance. Sure they can endlessly reset, but every reset they just get their head kicked in before disengaging.

Having to land skills in oder to escape is never reliable and roots/cc work just as well against the ranger. And all a thief needs to stop a ranger from going anywhere is steal and headshot. Or steal and sword 2. Or steal and another port. Or headshot only if the ranger has no dolyak stance. Shadow Shot. Infiltrator Signet. Sb 5. Thief has tons of ways to stop or catch a running ranger without having to burn major defensive cds like shadowstep. Then there are other rangers. Revs with 1,2k range teleport on low cd + short range ports. War with gs and bull's charge. Mirage with ports and leaps to keep up (as well as ranged cc and boon rip). Necro with ranged cc and corrups to interrupt the leaps. Even D/D ele with lighting flash can be hard to escape from or dh with JI, tho those are rare. In fact, as long there is just a single player fast enough to keep the ranger in combat, anyone can catch up thanks to the mount (which is why stealth in addition to mobility is so valuable). And that's assuming the ranger does not run smokescale.

You dont have to land them, but if they avoid them, thats a bit of extra time youre gaining. Thieves steal is far too low range (Since most roamers are DD which as 600 range) to even stop your attempt. Same for the others. Now the others could work, but I addressed that. "Thief could, but then thief is cutting his own lifeline, and the ranger can just turn around and chop his head off.". If he invests that much into chasing you, he cant run away. Turn around and he dies. As for the others, by the time Rev gets his second teleport youre already long gone. Warrior might be possibly able to catch you, but theyre also very good at running away. Mirage has no chance, their ports and leaps are generally slow. Necro has no chance, youll be out of his ranged CC before he can get to you.

How do i gain anything because my knockback misses due to some random dodge or blind? And what immob are you talking about, most SlB don't have one, certainly not from range. And you seem to assume the ranger starts running before anything gets anywhere close, but that just means he does not get much opportunity to go offensive, nor is it realistic with mounts being a thing. Also means chasers and especially a thief will still have tools to avoid anything potential dangerous a ranger could throw at him with his GS, even after spending initiative/cds to catch up. In fact some gap closer themself will also shut down turn arround attemps. A shiro rev can absolutely catch up with a double leap ranger unless the running starts before the fight begins, as long the rev has a target. And how are mirage leaps and ports slow? Ports are instant, that's as fast as possible and their leaps aren't slower than a ranger's leaps (shorter range yes, but they can chain more mobility skills together than a lb ranger can, if the run sword which a lot of them don't admittedly. maybe even ports only would be enough if they burn all of them, tho that certainly leaves them vulnerable).

A dodge takes up some time. If it misses theyre in an animation, which is valuable seconds. And healing skull muddy terrain. I believe thats a common pick, no? Not on Boonbeast maybe. And mounts are why its realistic, you can just get out of combat and mount up, and youre gone. Not even thief can do much to you at that point. And thief will not be able to escape if he tries to chase down a Ranger. Sure, he can avoid one or two skills, but hes dead without a lifeline, and he cant chase without cutting his lifeline. Shiro Rev really cant, theyll barely be able to match the first dash, let alone the second. Especially if the ranger runs after they swapped to glint. As for Mirage, simple. They only have 1 port that is instant and takes you far, and their leaps are way slower. Mirage Thrust carries you 600 units over about 1 second. Ranger gets 1200 units in that same amount of time. And thats not even getting into needing to dodge for it, which they are rather limited in.

Now don't get me wrong. Ranger (or rather Soulbeast) still has great escape ability, better than most other classes for sure and sometimes you won't catch them. Will depend on exact builds, cds used and initial distance. But thief is just on a whole different level in this regard. And how can the class with the best dmg avoidance be the class with the worst survivability? And dmg of thief doesn't seem that bad either, certainly not worse than everything else, as dealing dmg isn't solely about numbers but also about how hard or easy it is to avoid. And how do your claims " any roamer, by virtue of being a roamer, is at least good at dueling" and "thief can't win fights" fit together when considering that the latter is probably the most common solo roaming class?

Because thief is in no way, shape or form "the class with the best damage avoidance"? Unless they ran away (in which case yeah, you cant hit them, but they cant hit you), then the most common type of theif in roaming, D/P thief, has no blocks, no invulns, and subpar evades (quite literally just one extra dodge from being a daredevil and daggerstorm if they run that), while having bad healing, low base stats and no damage reduction. S/D thief fares

mildly

better since it gets at least a decent amount of evades, but its still far below what any other class has. Compared to that Soulbeasts block, smokescale evade, high protection uptime and incredible healing (in the case of Boonbeast) or even sic em snipers mediocre protection uptime and still decent healing are just ridiculous. And thats not even getting into things like warrior or sword weaver.

How about blinds, interrups and stealth on top of the ability to constantly dip in and out of (melee) range? All with much higher frequency than other classes can use their defensive skills. Technically daredevil has access to block, but most prefer stealth/blinds. Guess those are better then? Only "one extra dodge" that adds mobility, soft cc removal and 10% dmg reduction on top? More dmg reduction from passives? Weakness? Stolen protection? 33% dmg reduction which nobody seems to use, maybe because thief doesn't actually need dmg reduction? Evade on Sb. Not even that bad healing when going for shadow rejuvenation, but most still opt for more stealth/blinds or straight dmg? Low base health gets compensated by marauder gear, base armor is the same as ranger's.

"How about blinds" not bad, but D/P doesnt get a lot of those, since you can use 2 shadowshots at the start before youre out. Its still pretty subpar. "Interrupts" D/P thief only gets one from steal, which they engage with. Headshot is too costly, and would clash with blinds as a result. "Stealth" useless for defense. Try to stealth up mid-combat, and the Ranger knockback shots you into rapid fire and youre dead. "The ability to constantly dip in and out of melee range" D/P thief does not have that. "All with much higher frequency than other classes can use their defensive skills" hahaha, nope. Not even close. Thieves frequence for all of these is pretty damn low. Holo for example beats them on all of that, and Holo is not even that particularly good of a roamer. Technically Daredevil has access to block, but you dont have the utility skill space to use it, thats why its not used (it is better than what daredevil has though).

Only one extra dodge for the entire fight. "Stolen protection" you have to basically take on mesmer, or be able to survive long enough to steal again (spoilers: You dont). The 33% reduction isnt used for 3 reasons. First, you have to give up some of what little damage you have. Second, its specifically tied to revealed. Gaining effectively protection at the start of a fight isnt terribly useful, and you dont want to stealth mid-combat because youll take more damage than protection will ever stop. Even with shadow rejuvenation thief healing is far below average. "Evade on SB", if youre on SB youre not a threat. Besides if youre in SB anyway, you just use shortbow 5. No point wasting initiative on an evade to only be killed. "Low base health gets compensated by marauder gear, base armor is the same as ranger's" which would give up some of theives already extremely low damage. Also, Ranger uses Marauders gear. The health advantage is still way in favour of Ranger.

Yes, ranger can use mara too and get even an even higher hp pool, however at a certain point stacking more health has diminishing value and it is better to just use zerker pieces or trade dmg for toughness. Ranger does not have access to invulnerability. I guess you are talking about SoS which is a dmg immunity and imo not worth running over other defensive utilities. Heals can be interrupted by headshot/steal. Protection and Stab can be stolen. And now you start talking about smokescale, but where does the mobility then come from? I mean, i do agree that smokescale is the best and most common pet for a power SlB when it comes to pure fighting, not just because of the dmg, cc, and evade it provides, but also because of ... stealth and blinds! But it does not offer mobility. Also boonbeast can be disgustingly tanky, but typically not the best burst and chase potential, so just walk away and ignore it or zerg it down if you can't handle it 1vs1 (that's something i still need to learn myself). It is mostly good at dueling where both sides commit to the fight. Luckily also not too common. Squishy pew pews are seen much more often. Weavers can also be fairly tanky, but then their dmg tends to drop significantly. Also often low mobility. Warriors feel weaker than thieves in pretty much every regard except it takes a few seconds longer to kill them when they are afk.

No? Stacking health never has a diminishing value. Its health. Its always useful. Ranger has access to de facto invulnerability (doesnt help vs condis but hey, condis destroy thief as well). But you are right, its not terribly common. "Heals can be interrupted by steal" steal is used at the start to push damage usually. And headshot isnt used. So not really. "Protection and stab can be stolen" same as before, steal is used at the start. Fair point on the smokescale though. Not that Ranger needs that evade to get ahead. Boonbeast still bursts harder than thief does. Weaver while tanky still does a lot more damage than thief does. Warrior is stronger than thief in pretty much every regard other than non-horizontal mobility. More damage, better survivability, better CC, better utility. Seriously there is a reason why Warrior was subpar, but playable in sPvPs 2v2 mode, and Theif was 100% unplayable (mobility didnt matter in that gamemode, it was only about fighting).

And damage-wise its pretty bad, and a lot worse than everything else. <5k backstabs, autoattacks that hit like wet noodles, shadowshots that hit for 2k-3k, the only good part is heartseeker, but you never get the enemy that low. And even with the "how easy it is to hit", Rapid Fire is a lot easier to hit, a lot harder to fully avoid, and does a lot more damage than everything Thief does. And its

one

skill. And youre right, thief is the exception. But thief is what they call a "noobstomper". Thief roamers hunt down worse players they can kill, and run away from anyone of equal or only slightly lower skill. A lame playstyle, but it gets the rewards.

Rapid Fire is easy to land if the enemy doesn't do anything to avoid it, but there is no excuse for getting hit by the full channel unless out of defensive cds. It is always telegraphed and not spammable. Just avoiding half of it will put it's dmg below backstab dmg. Everything else dangerous a ranger can throw at you, can also be interrupted, dodged, blinded, kited or avoided via stealth. And 5k backstab and 3k shadowshot aren't even that low dmg considering the frequency they can be used and the difficulity in reacting without wasting defensive cds due to having to rely on guessing. It is not like Mauls are going to hit for more on a regular basis (unless the ranger is a pure glass cannon - but then thief can also achive much higher numbers).

You dont need to be hit by the full channel. Besides, not much you can do if youre knocked back. Avoiding half of it will put its damage still above backstab damage (5k vs what typically ends up being around 4k. Again, thats without Sic' Em). And that part is absolutely not true. There is nothing you can avoid via stealth (other than living, I suppose). And they absolutely are extremely low damage given their bad frequency, and how easy it is to react to shadowshot. You get one backstab at the start, and then maybe one every 25 seconds. Thats bad. You get a shadowshot every 5 seconds, but besides being easy to dodge, its also literally your entire damage at that point. All youve got left are your autos, that hit like a noodle. And of course Maul will always hit for more. It has a higher coefficient, and thats not even getting into the better damage multipliers Ranger has nowadays. Ranger will always hit way harder.

And many thieves i see are happily engaging in fights including duels against decent players of any other class. Not always successful, but often enough. "Without a chance" looks a lot different and somehow i doubt that thief players are just generally better than players of other classes. That would be a pretty cocky assumption, no?

The thing is, you dont get to see a thief who runs away. Odds are the only ones you can even see are the ones good enough to fight. But thing is, even those tend to always go 1 way. They engage, check how good the enemy is, and as soon as they realise he is at least of slightly below their skill level, they run away and look for a zerg or a noob to kill. Or a build they hardcounter like Deadeye (but Deadeye is trash, soo). A fair fight they win however? I have not seen one of those in a very long time.

[saerni.2584]

@KrHome.1920 said:

@saerni.2584 said:I’ve seen like two or three decent ranger trap builds in the last few months.

Higher immobilize uptime and solid condi application.

But 90% of the rangers/soulbeasts (who runs Druid these days?) are some kind of ranged super spike or melee GS sustain.

I don’t mind rangers. As a thief, I can beat most rangers. They can spike high damage and so can I. Why would I complain if one outplayed me? My build isn’t fair to them any more than their build is unfair to me.In EU smallscale druid is played as unkillable bunker to spam immobilize and it's cancer.

It's bit like conquest thief: can always escape (unless chased by at least 2 thieves for 2 minutes), has to be ignored, because it is the most durable build in its group, but has a huge impact on the fight, even though it is not damage. It also can deny stomps with an interrupt and stealth combo and then rez.

Rifle2 spamming deadeyes with condi duration gear and some cover condis can fulfill the same role in a smallscale group. Good luck when you are in a smallscale fight and such a build focusses you.

Yeah the Druid comment was more about how uncommon they are. Which is somewhat surprising given how good as a condi-support spec they can be. The other condi variants are more aggressive and tend to be killable.

I fought one condi Druid who basically had enough stealth/sustain to be unkillable as long as he retreated. But he did lack damage so he couldn’t kill me either. It was a pretty fair trade off in that sense.

[Dawdler.8521]

@saerni.2584 said:

@KrHome.1920 said:

@saerni.2584 said:I’ve seen like two or three decent ranger trap builds in the last few months.

Higher immobilize uptime and solid condi application.

But 90% of the rangers/soulbeasts (who runs Druid these days?) are some kind of ranged super spike or melee GS sustain.

I don’t mind rangers. As a thief, I can beat most rangers. They can spike high damage and so can I. Why would I complain if one outplayed me? My build isn’t fair to them any more than their build is unfair to me.In EU smallscale druid is played as unkillable bunker to spam immobilize and it's cancer.

It's bit like conquest thief: can always escape (unless chased by at least 2 thieves for 2 minutes), has to be ignored, because it is the most durable build in its group, but has a huge impact on the fight, even though it is not damage. It also can deny stomps with an interrupt and stealth combo and then rez.

Rifle2 spamming deadeyes with condi duration gear and some cover condis can fulfill the same role in a smallscale group. Good luck when you are in a smallscale fight and such a build focusses you.

Yeah the Druid comment was more about how uncommon they are. Which is somewhat surprising given how good as a condi-support spec they can be. The other condi variants are more aggressive and tend to be killable.

I fought one condi Druid who basically had enough stealth/sustain to be unkillable as long as he retreated. But he did lack damage so he couldn’t kill me either. It was a pretty fair trade off in that sense.Well you say it's suprising, then you say why it's not surprising, lol.

I dont play druid and consider the condi immo druid to be a plague upon humanity, but it is fairly easy to sum it up like that - they may be basicly unkillable 1v1, but they dont have anywhere near the damage of the average power soulbeast. Just like any other condi spec, that makes the field of use extremely narrow - as soon as they are outmanned or start to fight in a small group scenario, their effectivness drop like a rock. If their foes play similar builds that they cant kill easily, +1 will dominate them unlike said soulbeast that might have a chance to down people long before +1 becomes dangerous.

Unless of course you play on one of those servers where there is a single friendly camp contested, you fight the druid for almost 3 minutes and not a single soul show up to help, then when you go to the nearest enemy camp that has a 2 minute timer there is 15 of your server mates staring at the buffed guard. Then the +1 weakness is a non-issue.

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

Dunno, but in a keep, a de who knows what he is doing is very hard to kill and in some instances impossible. Reveal only works sometimes but the de always has a portal up and normally the other side of the keep.

[Zyreva.1078]

@UNOwen.7132There is so much straight up wrong that i can't be bothered to point out every single thing. This ...

@UNOwen.7132 said:"Stealth" useless for defense.kinda tells enough anyway.

[GoldenPants.1870]

I just did a test. And, to absolutley nobodys surprise. Daredevil is faster.

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

@GoldenPants.1870 said:I just did a test. And, to absolutley nobodys surprise. Daredevil is faster.

You must be cheating!

[UNOwen.7132]

@UmbraNoctis.1907 said:@UNOwen.7132There is so much straight up wrong that i can't be bothered to point out every single thing. This ...

Yeah except nothing is wrong. If there was something wrong youd have an actual argument, but alas, you do not.

@UNOwen.7132 said:"Stealth" useless for defense.kinda tells enough anyway.

The fact that I actually know how easy it is to punish stealth, which is why its indeed useless for defense? Think about. Youre spending 1.25 seconds locked in animations (meaning the enemy can go to town hitting you with CC and burst that you have no way of defending yourself against) to enter a state where you cant be targetted ... but still take full damage from everything. Worse yet, the "you cant be targetted" part is only partially correct, as for a second or two after entering stealth, attacks continue to track and hit you. So, with a short enough duration, stealth may well do literally nothing. Thats why its useless for defense, and why good thieves dont use it for defense. If youre fighting and you enter stealth, you want to drop it ASAP, as staying in stealth is essentially giving the enemy free hits while unable to fight back.

[GoldenPants.1870]

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

@GoldenPants.1870 said:I just did a test. And, to absolutley nobodys surprise. Daredevil is faster.

You must be cheating!

Indeed I must.

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@UmbraNoctis.1907 said:@UNOwen.7132There is so much straight up wrong that i can't be bothered to point out every single thing. This ...

Yeah except nothing is wrong. If there was something wrong youd have an actual argument, but alas, you do not.

@UNOwen.7132 said:"Stealth" useless for defense.kinda tells enough anyway.Worse yet, the "you cant be targetted" part is only

partially

correct, as for a second or two after entering stealth, attacks continue to track and hit you. So, with a short enough duration, stealth may well do

literally nothing

. Thats why its useless for defense, and why good thieves dont use it for defense. If youre fighting and you enter stealth, you want to drop it ASAP, as staying in stealth is essentially giving the enemy free hits while unable to fight back.

I don't think I have read anything more wrong in my life.

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

He is probably that warrior main on an alt forum acc, what's his name again? Ah! Burnfall or something, he equally talked a load of garbage

[Abyssisis.3971]

I play full zerker soulbeast and I can generally kill a thief IF I can see it. It’s the ones I don’t even know are around that ruin my day. Stealth is OPed!

[Swagger.1459]

@UNOwen.7132

I have a concern that you are avoiding my earlier post as seen below...

---

“On flat ground (which WvW has a lot of), Ranger does have more mobility. More stealth on the other hand, no, not even with trappers rune, but stealth is also pretty useless during a fight. Anyway a thief obviously cant win a 1v1 against a ranger”

Post a Ranger build that has more mobility than a Thief built for mobility...

What??? A Thief can’t beat a Ranger 1v1?

[UNOwen.7132]

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:He is probably that warrior main on an alt forum acc, what's his name again? Ah! Burnfall or something, he equally talked a load of garbage

Nah, Burnfall is more like Golden or Umbra. He is an infamous thief hater who talked like thief could do literally everything, stealth was totally ridiculously overpowered and thief couldnt be beaten by anyone and was destroying the game. He basically had their same arguments, but he didnt hide the fact that he had no clue less well, so he was ridiculed.