No, HoT should not be further nerfed. It is not meant to be the regular power fantasy. - Page 3 — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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No, HoT should not be further nerfed. It is not meant to be the regular power fantasy.

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  • Croc.1978Croc.1978 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 13, 2020

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Cerioth.7062 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Cerioth.7062 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Hot is not "easy to solo" gliders and mounts help a lot.. try soloing without them.. New customers have to.. Classes are so unbalanced a Engi, Necro and a Guardian can storm through the maps while Warrior, Ele and Mesmer get killed every second.. Even Rangers and Revenants have some issues..

    No you aren't right op.. sorry but you are very wrong.. you are a niche in this game.

    @Cerioth.7062 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @Cerioth.7062 said:
    Honestly most of the issues described here would be fixed by introducing better core game tutorialization that forces you to learn your abilities and counter mobs.

    Perhaps, so, but I don't really like things that are 'forced'. /shrug

    Why even bother playing the game if you do not want to learn its mechanics? How is the game going to make you learn gameplay if you can indefinitely avoid it?

    Obviously it does not have to be a per character thing, can just be once per account thing that you can repeat as needed.

    Its not the mechanics to learn i'm on 250ping as an Aussie and hot is inundated with cheap shot mechanics designed to bully customers to death.. not fun in the slightest to play.. Even as an 8 year vet i try to avoid Hot and i've only ever completed pof once.. its just not a fun aspect to deal with daily..

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Croc.1978 said:
    Yes, difficulty in HoT is fine as it is.

    That said, there's really nothing that prepares players for what awaits them in the green hell before they enter it. They probably intended Silverwastes to be that preparation, but it doesn't work. And nerfing Orr post-release was a mistake.

    I guess the best advise you could give new players now is:

    • play Orr
    • play Silverwastes (not RIBA) for a while
    • start PoF and get at least Raptor with canyon jump
    • enter Verdant Brink

    I think the best advice is toncomplete pof and play hot as a prequel.

    That wont help you need minimum Glider, Bunny and a Flying mount to avoid a good chunk of deaths..

    I have played through that same content with high ping as well, and do not feel bullied in the slightest. I also have a plenty of 300 ping AUS and asian friends who do not struggle with the content.

    You dont need flying mount or glider in pof.

    Eh? Confused as to how this is relevant to anything. You indeed do not need those for PoF. Nor mounts for HoT.

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Cerioth.7062 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Hot is not "easy to solo" gliders and mounts help a lot.. try soloing without them.. New customers have to.. Classes are so unbalanced a Engi, Necro and a Guardian can storm through the maps while Warrior, Ele and Mesmer get killed every second.. Even Rangers and Revenants have some issues..

    No you aren't right op.. sorry but you are very wrong.. you are a niche in this game.

    @Cerioth.7062 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @Cerioth.7062 said:
    Honestly most of the issues described here would be fixed by introducing better core game tutorialization that forces you to learn your abilities and counter mobs.

    Perhaps, so, but I don't really like things that are 'forced'. /shrug

    Why even bother playing the game if you do not want to learn its mechanics? How is the game going to make you learn gameplay if you can indefinitely avoid it?

    Obviously it does not have to be a per character thing, can just be once per account thing that you can repeat as needed.

    Its not the mechanics to learn i'm on 250ping as an Aussie and hot is inundated with cheap shot mechanics designed to bully customers to death.. not fun in the slightest to play.. Even as an 8 year vet i try to avoid Hot and i've only ever completed pof once.. its just not a fun aspect to deal with daily..

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Croc.1978 said:
    Yes, difficulty in HoT is fine as it is.

    That said, there's really nothing that prepares players for what awaits them in the green hell before they enter it. They probably intended Silverwastes to be that preparation, but it doesn't work. And nerfing Orr post-release was a mistake.

    I guess the best advise you could give new players now is:

    • play Orr
    • play Silverwastes (not RIBA) for a while
    • start PoF and get at least Raptor with canyon jump
    • enter Verdant Brink

    I think the best advice is toncomplete pof and play hot as a prequel.

    That wont help you need minimum Glider, Bunny and a Flying mount to avoid a good chunk of deaths..

    I have played through that same content with high ping as well, and do not feel bullied in the slightest. I also have a plenty of 300 ping AUS and asian friends who do not struggle with the content.

    Great and i have a lot that say otherwise. we go round and around.. even yesterday i saw customers angry an frustrated in hot.. that isn't good gaming imo. Also i don't know if it was my time zone but for me Tangled Depths was beyond empty mostly.. not even events.

    Then perhaps it is time for all these individuals to look into what they can do in order to improve their own gameplay, instead of demanding for content to be nerfed.

    Someone someone suggested that you need to get the raptor so you should do the first part of pof before hot which to me seeks weird. You want to have some kind of narrative structure so doing 1 part of pof going back to hot and then going back to pof to finish it seems weird to me.

    It is indeed weird. But I think it's the best way we have to get new players accustomed to HoT's difficulty and keep them from getting frustrated, quitting the game and/or creating threads like the "Dark Souls" one. That's why I suggested it, narrative structure be damned.

    Sure, in a perfect world ANet themselves would fix the problem by adapting the (pre-HoT) content. But let's be honest here - that train has left the station. At the current point of the game's life, they will not commit anymore development resources to those things.

  • Croc.1978Croc.1978 Member ✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:
    I'm not sure I agree that the only issue with PoF is the aggro range. Take that away and change nothing else and you'll still have huge, empty maps with not much going on. Apparently, that's what some players enjoy, but I think the persistent activity of the HoT maps is evidence that players enjoy that sort of group activity.

    It's not just about that. HoT maps weren't doing all that well either until Anet significantly increased rewards all over, instead of condensing everything just to the last map meta and until difficulty of some metas (like Gerent) got nerfed.

    PoF not only does not have a good level of intermediate rewards, but is severely lacking in the very rewarding big event chains. HoT metas, as they are now, do not require from players all that much, and are still very rewarding. PoF metas on the other hand are either non-existent, or offer poor rewards while requiring a lot of effort and engagement (see Serpent's Ire). There were some metas added later, in LS4, that had a "good" (according to many players) effort to rewards ratio - and those were very popular. Too bad Anet didn't use any experience from this to improve the situation of main PoF maps.

    It seems they are contempt now with players mostly going to PoF maps to do story missions/collections, unlock mounts, get easy HPs etc. If people did metas there all day long, it would certainly not improve the lag issues we already have.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Croc.1978 said:
    On the other hand, one adapts to circumstances.

    Orr mobs were actually buffed later on. They added the Risen Nobles that deal high amounts of damage (probably the highest damage potential of all mobs in Orr) with their shadow teleport skill that creates a symbol, and then they also changed how Risen Drakes work, leaving pools of poison behind them when they charge. Both abilities weren't available on release. Anyway, everyone remembers the "nerf of Orr" but maybe forgot the "buff of Orr".

    Didn't know that since I was not around when HoT released. Oh my, so many mistakes by ANet.

    And the debuffs were massive.

    Dry Top mob:
    Beetles used to be immune to damage from the front as well. You had to either let them charge, avoid the charge, hit them from behind, or use a hard CC skill, in which case they fall over and flip, making them completely vulnerable. Anet removed that immunity.

    Silverwastes/Dry Top:
    Mordrem Thrashers used to be immune to damage unless you hit them from behind, and they leave a poison/torment/cripple field behind them while spinning. They simply removed the immunity

    Mordrem Wolves could buff themselves with retaliation, that hit for rather high damage, instantly killing players that attacked multiple times. Anet removed the retaliation and added swiftness instead. So the Wolf spends 1 second cast time skill to get swiftness. Moreover, Wolves could do triple damage when hitting a player from either back or the sides (flanking), Anet removed that triple damage when hitting from flanking, now Wolves just tickle from all sides

    Those are some of the changes they did with the launch of HOT.

  • Croc.1978Croc.1978 Member ✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Croc.1978 said:
    On the other hand, one adapts to circumstances.

    Orr mobs were actually buffed later on. They added the Risen Nobles that deal high amounts of damage (probably the highest damage potential of all mobs in Orr) with their shadow teleport skill that creates a symbol, and then they also changed how Risen Drakes work, leaving pools of poison behind them when they charge. Both abilities weren't available on release. Anyway, everyone remembers the "nerf of Orr" but maybe forgot the "buff of Orr".

    Interesting. From my memory the numbers of the Risen in Orr maps were much higher at release though. But my memory could be mistaken.

    BTW, do you happen to know what's the deal with Champion Risen Knights? Their ground AoE does rather ordinary damage for a while and then suddenly it spikes you for 20k - 30k. I can't remember that obvious bug being there when the game released.

  • @Croc.1978 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Croc.1978 said:
    On the other hand, one adapts to circumstances.

    Orr mobs were actually buffed later on. They added the Risen Nobles that deal high amounts of damage (probably the highest damage potential of all mobs in Orr) with their shadow teleport skill that creates a symbol, and then they also changed how Risen Drakes work, leaving pools of poison behind them when they charge. Both abilities weren't available on release. Anyway, everyone remembers the "nerf of Orr" but maybe forgot the "buff of Orr".

    Interesting. From my memory the numbers of the Risen in Orr maps were much higher at release though. But my memory could be mistaken.

    BTW, do you happen to know what's the deal with Champion Risen Knights? Their ground AoE does rather ordinary damage for a while and then suddenly it spikes you for 20k - 30k. I can't remember that obvious bug being there when the game released.

    I spend very little time in the core game, but if those are the flying undead guys I think they move toward their target dropping multiple circles. If the circles stack on where you're standing you can be hit by multiple at once.

  • I do agree that the shift from previous maps to HoT maps is too much of a jump for new players. I disagree with the "Promoting playing together." and I will explain why.

    My very first time entering Verdant Brink, I was met with a map where gliding is essential. Yet you had to fill the xp bar FIRST before you could glide.
    So I ran down the sloap to start earning XP, just to find 2 squads of pocket raptors and a smokescale together on my path, killing me pretty much instantly.

    Secondly I came there during the nightime bosses. Another flawed design.
    I had NO gliding no nothing, so was 100% unable to help (they were on the wyvern matriach) and I got the "friendly" request to return later so their "friends" could enter the apparantly full map that did have gliding to help out.
    WHAT????

    The problem with these maps is not the strength of the enemies, it's the fact that you are "forced" to seek help.
    It suddenly is no longer an option but mandatory. Even for something as simple as Map Completion, you REQUIRE help.
    NO!

    Bad design, bad concept, that was RECOGNIZED luckely (considering the later maps can all be completed solo, where events DO encourage teamplay.)
    HoT does not encourage teamplay
    it FORCES teamplay. And that, by it's very nature, is a poor design decision.

    Today, I only enter the maps with my 2 toons that I KNOW can solo most content and can get Map Completion without me REQUIRING help.
    (on that remark: It does require me to BUY the hero points)

    I prefer teamplay to ALWAYS be optional.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 13, 2020

    @Croc.1978 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Croc.1978 said:
    On the other hand, one adapts to circumstances.

    Orr mobs were actually buffed later on. They added the Risen Nobles that deal high amounts of damage (probably the highest damage potential of all mobs in Orr) with their shadow teleport skill that creates a symbol, and then they also changed how Risen Drakes work, leaving pools of poison behind them when they charge. Both abilities weren't available on release. Anyway, everyone remembers the "nerf of Orr" but maybe forgot the "buff of Orr".

    Interesting. From my memory the numbers of the Risen in Orr maps were much higher at release though. But my memory could be mistaken.

    Yes, they were. And the killed mobs respawned much faster. So, while it is indeed true that some of the Orrian mobs nowadays are stronger than was usual initially, that's true only when you compare them on 1:1 basis. With the much greater mob density and faster respawn originally Orr was way more annoying place than after the changes. The buffs maddoctor speaks of did not come even close to offsetting the main nerfs.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Croc.1978Croc.1978 Member ✭✭✭

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @Croc.1978 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Croc.1978 said:
    On the other hand, one adapts to circumstances.

    Orr mobs were actually buffed later on. They added the Risen Nobles that deal high amounts of damage (probably the highest damage potential of all mobs in Orr) with their shadow teleport skill that creates a symbol, and then they also changed how Risen Drakes work, leaving pools of poison behind them when they charge. Both abilities weren't available on release. Anyway, everyone remembers the "nerf of Orr" but maybe forgot the "buff of Orr".

    Interesting. From my memory the numbers of the Risen in Orr maps were much higher at release though. But my memory could be mistaken.

    BTW, do you happen to know what's the deal with Champion Risen Knights? Their ground AoE does rather ordinary damage for a while and then suddenly it spikes you for 20k - 30k. I can't remember that obvious bug being there when the game released.

    I spend very little time in the core game, but if those are the flying undead guys I think they move toward their target dropping multiple circles. If the circles stack on where you're standing you can be hit by multiple at once.

    OK, but that doesn't really explain the extreme spike (yes, those are the flying guys). I've fought them with 25k health, 3k armour and 12% damage reduction and got insta-downed by a single pulse from almost full health. Happened to me twice.

    I guess I will try to reproduce it to check the combat log afterwards.

  • @Tuna Bandit.3786 said:
    I do agree that the shift from previous maps to HoT maps is too much of a jump for new players. I disagree with the "Promoting playing together." and I will explain why.

    My very first time entering Verdant Brink, I was met with a map where gliding is essential. Yet you had to fill the xp bar FIRST before you could glide.
    So I ran down the sloap to start earning XP, just to find 2 squads of pocket raptors and a smokescale together on my path, killing me pretty much instantly.

    Secondly I came there during the nightime bosses. Another flawed design.
    I had NO gliding no nothing, so was 100% unable to help (they were on the wyvern matriach) and I got the "friendly" request to return later so their "friends" could enter the apparantly full map that did have gliding to help out.
    WHAT????

    The problem with these maps is not the strength of the enemies, it's the fact that you are "forced" to seek help.
    It suddenly is no longer an option but mandatory. Even for something as simple as Map Completion, you REQUIRE help.
    NO!

    Bad design, bad concept, that was RECOGNIZED luckely (considering the later maps can all be completed solo, where events DO encourage teamplay.)
    HoT does not encourage teamplay
    it FORCES teamplay. And that, by it's very nature, is a poor design decision.

    Today, I only enter the maps with my 2 toons that I KNOW can solo most content and can get Map Completion without me REQUIRING help.
    (on that remark: It does require me to BUY the hero points)

    I prefer teamplay to ALWAYS be optional.

    FYI the night meta only requires gliding for one of the five bosses. You can reach the bosses by taking the chopper up from a controlled camp. Camps are mostly reached on foot (although masteries obviously help!).

    Is that obvious to a player their first time playing on the map? Probably not. But that's why you play and learn as you go. You need to fill that bar somehow, right?

  • @Croc.1978 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @Croc.1978 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Croc.1978 said:
    On the other hand, one adapts to circumstances.

    Orr mobs were actually buffed later on. They added the Risen Nobles that deal high amounts of damage (probably the highest damage potential of all mobs in Orr) with their shadow teleport skill that creates a symbol, and then they also changed how Risen Drakes work, leaving pools of poison behind them when they charge. Both abilities weren't available on release. Anyway, everyone remembers the "nerf of Orr" but maybe forgot the "buff of Orr".

    Interesting. From my memory the numbers of the Risen in Orr maps were much higher at release though. But my memory could be mistaken.

    BTW, do you happen to know what's the deal with Champion Risen Knights? Their ground AoE does rather ordinary damage for a while and then suddenly it spikes you for 20k - 30k. I can't remember that obvious bug being there when the game released.

    I spend very little time in the core game, but if those are the flying undead guys I think they move toward their target dropping multiple circles. If the circles stack on where you're standing you can be hit by multiple at once.

    OK, but that doesn't really explain the extreme spike (yes, those are the flying guys). I've fought them with 25k health, 3k armour and 12% damage reduction and got insta-downed by a single pulse from almost full health. Happened to me twice.

    I guess I will try to reproduce it to check the combat log afterwards.

    If enough of those circles pile up and strike at the same time it could appear to happen instantly or in 1 hit.

    This is a problem on bandit champions that throw those little torches, too. They throw more of them if there are more targets, but if those targets are stacked...look out!

  • I think HoT's maps are great and that the mobs are cheesey as all get-out. Too difficult? Only to tolerate the tedium and frequently ridiculous AoE/multi-hit attack varieties. It's very difficult to tolerate.

  • Dante.1508Dante.1508 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 13, 2020

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Hot is not "easy to solo" gliders and mounts help a lot.. try soloing without them.. New customers have to.. Classes are so unbalanced a Engi, Necro and a Guardian can storm through the maps while Warrior, Ele and Mesmer get killed every second.. Even Rangers and Revenants have some issues..

    No you aren't right op.. sorry but you are very wrong.. you are a niche in this game.

    @Cerioth.7062 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @Cerioth.7062 said:
    Honestly most of the issues described here would be fixed by introducing better core game tutorialization that forces you to learn your abilities and counter mobs.

    Perhaps, so, but I don't really like things that are 'forced'. /shrug

    Why even bother playing the game if you do not want to learn its mechanics? How is the game going to make you learn gameplay if you can indefinitely avoid it?

    Obviously it does not have to be a per character thing, can just be once per account thing that you can repeat as needed.

    Its not the mechanics to learn i'm on 250ping as an Aussie and hot is inundated with cheap shot mechanics designed to bully customers to death.. not fun in the slightest to play.. Even as an 8 year vet i try to avoid Hot and i've only ever completed pof once.. its just not a fun aspect to deal with daily..

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Croc.1978 said:
    Yes, difficulty in HoT is fine as it is.

    That said, there's really nothing that prepares players for what awaits them in the green hell before they enter it. They probably intended Silverwastes to be that preparation, but it doesn't work. And nerfing Orr post-release was a mistake.

    I guess the best advise you could give new players now is:

    • play Orr
    • play Silverwastes (not RIBA) for a while
    • start PoF and get at least Raptor with canyon jump
    • enter Verdant Brink

    I think the best advice is toncomplete pof and play hot as a prequel.

    That wont help you need minimum Glider, Bunny and a Flying mount to avoid a good chunk of deaths..

    In case anyone was actually planning to listen to this guy, let me just save you the trouble with this video of an HoT champion solo that anyone (even Dante here!) can do. As a bonus, I'm wearing green gear that costs about 2s per piece so anyone can afford it. I've also slotted all signets for utilities and no weapon swap to avoid any complications. You can literally just push buttons at random with this build and win. The only thing that matters is pushing dodge and auto attack over and over.

    Seriously, Dante, do yourself a favor and try this. You might begin to realize what people are trying to tell you and what you never could have learned playing through content once and then complaining about it endlessly for years. Find a build that works. This one happens to work even if you don't want to!

    I can pass that one.. i noticed you used stave mesmer not greatsword? did you try elementalist? also try the tengu or vinetooth.. try the chak and rolling thing.. You cherry pick a relatively easy one and say Hot is doable.. Try soloing Tangled depths hero points i soloed about 2 in that map.. the rest obliterated me.

    Lets see you do Balthazar solo.

    Sure thing, chief.

    I bet those aren't you, and those are half a year ago.. before a lot of changes especially the mushroom it was in Jan, but kudos to those players, i wish i had ping times to rival those players..

    Here you go, Dante. Links to my youtube channel and the forum threads I've maintained for years focusing on open world builds for mesmer and elementalist, including variants designed to help players who struggle with expansion/story content but aren't mechanically inclined. If my Balthazar solo isn't current enough for you, perhaps you'd care to watch my VB night meta boss trio solo from 3 weeks ago?

    In any event, if you need help with hero points in HoT I regularly assist other players with that. I don't like to lead big squads, so it would just be you and me. Quicker that way, since we don't have to wait for stragglers and I can solo the champs down in about a minute. You'd get some hero points pain-free and see for yourself what elementalist is capable of in open world!

    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCVfOCi7TrvGxoYKLE0C6NcA

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/107218/open-world-domination-fire-weaver

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/30394/open-world-domination-mirage

    I usually just wait for HP trains myself.. but thanks either way, I'm on Sea of Sorrows so i doubt we are in the same server. Well done on those HPs, again i wish i had your ping times, i feel i'd solo a lot more, but being 250-400ish ping i don't have most chances.

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Cerioth.7062 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Cerioth.7062 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Hot is not "easy to solo" gliders and mounts help a lot.. try soloing without them.. New customers have to.. Classes are so unbalanced a Engi, Necro and a Guardian can storm through the maps while Warrior, Ele and Mesmer get killed every second.. Even Rangers and Revenants have some issues..

    No you aren't right op.. sorry but you are very wrong.. you are a niche in this game.

    @Cerioth.7062 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @Cerioth.7062 said:
    Honestly most of the issues described here would be fixed by introducing better core game tutorialization that forces you to learn your abilities and counter mobs.

    Perhaps, so, but I don't really like things that are 'forced'. /shrug

    Why even bother playing the game if you do not want to learn its mechanics? How is the game going to make you learn gameplay if you can indefinitely avoid it?

    Obviously it does not have to be a per character thing, can just be once per account thing that you can repeat as needed.

    Its not the mechanics to learn i'm on 250ping as an Aussie and hot is inundated with cheap shot mechanics designed to bully customers to death.. not fun in the slightest to play.. Even as an 8 year vet i try to avoid Hot and i've only ever completed pof once.. its just not a fun aspect to deal with daily..

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Croc.1978 said:
    Yes, difficulty in HoT is fine as it is.

    That said, there's really nothing that prepares players for what awaits them in the green hell before they enter it. They probably intended Silverwastes to be that preparation, but it doesn't work. And nerfing Orr post-release was a mistake.

    I guess the best advise you could give new players now is:

    • play Orr
    • play Silverwastes (not RIBA) for a while
    • start PoF and get at least Raptor with canyon jump
    • enter Verdant Brink

    I think the best advice is toncomplete pof and play hot as a prequel.

    That wont help you need minimum Glider, Bunny and a Flying mount to avoid a good chunk of deaths..

    I have played through that same content with high ping as well, and do not feel bullied in the slightest. I also have a plenty of 300 ping AUS and asian friends who do not struggle with the content.

    You dont need flying mount or glider in pof.

    Eh? Confused as to how this is relevant to anything. You indeed do not need those for PoF. Nor mounts for HoT.

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Cerioth.7062 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Hot is not "easy to solo" gliders and mounts help a lot.. try soloing without them.. New customers have to.. Classes are so unbalanced a Engi, Necro and a Guardian can storm through the maps while Warrior, Ele and Mesmer get killed every second.. Even Rangers and Revenants have some issues..

    No you aren't right op.. sorry but you are very wrong.. you are a niche in this game.

    @Cerioth.7062 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @Cerioth.7062 said:
    Honestly most of the issues described here would be fixed by introducing better core game tutorialization that forces you to learn your abilities and counter mobs.

    Perhaps, so, but I don't really like things that are 'forced'. /shrug

    Why even bother playing the game if you do not want to learn its mechanics? How is the game going to make you learn gameplay if you can indefinitely avoid it?

    Obviously it does not have to be a per character thing, can just be once per account thing that you can repeat as needed.

    Its not the mechanics to learn i'm on 250ping as an Aussie and hot is inundated with cheap shot mechanics designed to bully customers to death.. not fun in the slightest to play.. Even as an 8 year vet i try to avoid Hot and i've only ever completed pof once.. its just not a fun aspect to deal with daily..

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Croc.1978 said:
    Yes, difficulty in HoT is fine as it is.

    That said, there's really nothing that prepares players for what awaits them in the green hell before they enter it. They probably intended Silverwastes to be that preparation, but it doesn't work. And nerfing Orr post-release was a mistake.

    I guess the best advise you could give new players now is:

    • play Orr
    • play Silverwastes (not RIBA) for a while
    • start PoF and get at least Raptor with canyon jump
    • enter Verdant Brink

    I think the best advice is toncomplete pof and play hot as a prequel.

    That wont help you need minimum Glider, Bunny and a Flying mount to avoid a good chunk of deaths..

    I have played through that same content with high ping as well, and do not feel bullied in the slightest. I also have a plenty of 300 ping AUS and asian friends who do not struggle with the content.

    Great and i have a lot that say otherwise. we go round and around.. even yesterday i saw customers angry an frustrated in hot.. that isn't good gaming imo. Also i don't know if it was my time zone but for me Tangled Depths was beyond empty mostly.. not even events.

    Then perhaps it is time for all these individuals to look into what they can do in order to improve their own gameplay, instead of demanding for content to be nerfed.

    Someone someone suggested that you need to get the raptor so you should do the first part of pof before hot which to me seeks weird. You want to have some kind of narrative structure so doing 1 part of pof going back to hot and then going back to pof to finish it seems weird to me.

    The devs want the content super hard so it takes longer to pass.. The way customers are suggesting is an easier route but breaks the games story for customers. Sadly if i was new i'd completely avoid HOT till i had at least 5 mounts and then do HOT, focusing on my glider first. Strange that following the story in this game is actually punishing customers.. but hey thats GW2 after Tyria's bright start.

  • @kharmin.7683 said:

    @Makaloff.7912 said:

    @Croc.1978 said:
    Yes, difficulty in HoT is fine as it is.

    That said, there's really nothing that prepares players for what awaits them in the green hell before they enter it. They probably intended Silverwastes to be that preparation, but it doesn't work. And nerfing Orr post-release was a mistake.

    I guess the best advise you could give new players now is:

    • play Orr
    • play Silverwastes (not RIBA) for a while
    • start PoF and get at least Raptor with canyon jump
    • enter Verdant Brink

    as a relatively new player to GW2 i wish i was told this way earlier. Orr was a bit of a pain (mostly beacuse the amount of mobs packed litterly everywhere) but it was atleast doable even if i never want to repeat that storyline again. Then i head into HoT since i didnt have the living world seasons and all i can say its not been a fun ride. Everything from HP being either 1 mile above or under you, or in a cave somewhere to mobs ripping you apart or knocking you off platforms. continue with the story and it doesnt really get any better when you get to the maze for example that 1 shots you if you arent quick enought. Dont get me wrong, i dont mind a challenge but HoT so far have been frustrating from start to finish, its not something i want to repeat again which is a shame beacuse i do like storybased games. but unless you play something with a personal tank like ranger or full plate armor with full exotics, its not going to be a fun experience. I dont expect to be powerful but HoT have taken it a bit too far sadly this have lead to im taking a break from the game beacuse i just get frustrated when im supposed to have fun. I know that i dont play perfect but the difficulty spike truly is off the charts if you compare it with the base game.

    Sorry for your experience. May I suggest asking for help in HoT maps? I've always had people respond and assist whenever I'm unable to accomplish something in those maps.

    i have a friend luckily helping me out and i got majority of the HP done after joining in on a train so as it looks right now im soon almost done with HoT story wise. never had issues finding people for events, for me the frustations lied in how unaccesable and hard it was to navigate and the extreme damage the mobs do to you. The difficulty spike between the base game and HoT is quite huge for a new player, even when in full exotic you struggle. so for future alts i most likely will skip HoT completly and start with PoF directly

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Croc.1978 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Croc.1978 said:
    On the other hand, one adapts to circumstances.

    Orr mobs were actually buffed later on. They added the Risen Nobles that deal high amounts of damage (probably the highest damage potential of all mobs in Orr) with their shadow teleport skill that creates a symbol, and then they also changed how Risen Drakes work, leaving pools of poison behind them when they charge. Both abilities weren't available on release. Anyway, everyone remembers the "nerf of Orr" but maybe forgot the "buff of Orr".

    Interesting. From my memory the numbers of the Risen in Orr maps were much higher at release though. But my memory could be mistaken.

    It wasn't "much higher", there was a slight adjustment to mob spawns but the meme of "nerfed Orr" circulates around. There was a tweak to the type of spawns (less CC) and less dense mob populations to avoid CC spam and the "ping pong" effect. Risen were never a challenge to deal with, you can fight them with auto attacks and they won't do any serious damage, they are just HP sponges with soft and hard CC skills, with some rare exceptions.

    The biggest change they did was remove the "pull" from the Risen Putrifier, which were the highest offenders in Orr, making moving around a pain. They are the Risen with the anchor, they have a skill similar to Guardian GS 4, they create a symbol under them, in the old days they would then throw the anchor at a player and it would attach on them. Then they'd pull the anchor back, pulling the player with it, on top of the symbol, to damage them. You could get away from the chill spam, but getting pulled back a long distance, into a long forgotten group of mobs that you've already avoided, was not fun. It's interesting that when Anet removed the pull, they didn't change the AI of the mob, so they'll happily create a symbol under their bodies, then run away from it to chase players, effectively making them look dumb. Similar to how they replaced Retaliation on Mordrem Wolves with Swiftness but left the 1 second skill channel.

    There are also places, like the spider lair, the area around the temple of Grenth and the area and caves around the ship at the southeast corner of Cursed Shore where they didn't change mob spawns at all, mob density was reduced around pathways, so it became easier to go from point A to point B, but event areas weren't altered

  • Laila Lightness.8742Laila Lightness.8742 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 14, 2020

    @Tuna Bandit.3786 said:
    I do agree that the shift from previous maps to HoT maps is too much of a jump for new players. I disagree with the "Promoting playing together." and I will explain why.

    My very first time entering Verdant Brink, I was met with a map where gliding is essential. Yet you had to fill the xp bar FIRST before you could glide.
    So I ran down the sloap to start earning XP, just to find 2 squads of pocket raptors and a smokescale together on my path, killing me pretty much instantly.

    Secondly I came there during the nightime bosses. Another flawed design.
    I had NO gliding no nothing, so was 100% unable to help (they were on the wyvern matriach) and I got the "friendly" request to return later so their "friends" could enter the apparantly full map that did have gliding to help out.
    WHAT????

    The problem with these maps is not the strength of the enemies, it's the fact that you are "forced" to seek help.
    It suddenly is no longer an option but mandatory. Even for something as simple as Map Completion, you REQUIRE help.
    NO!

    Bad design, bad concept, that was RECOGNIZED luckely (considering the later maps can all be completed solo, where events DO encourage teamplay.)
    HoT does not encourage teamplay
    it FORCES teamplay. And that, by it's very nature, is a poor design decision.

    Today, I only enter the maps with my 2 toons that I KNOW can solo most content and can get Map Completion without me REQUIRING help.
    (on that remark: It does require me to BUY the hero points)

    I prefer teamplay to ALWAYS be optional.

    Events on most maps beyond hot can soloed i kinds wish they changed ds and tarir to be soloable maybe remove the octovine regen and vb just remove night all together its not a good meta design. Td meta gareth change it to not have a forced timer on it instead up until finished. Ds and df needs to remove the lane concepts let all do events at their pace

  • Shikaru.7618Shikaru.7618 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Hot is not "easy to solo" gliders and mounts help a lot.. try soloing without them.. New customers have to.. Classes are so unbalanced a Engi, Necro and a Guardian can storm through the maps while Warrior, Ele and Mesmer get killed every second.. Even Rangers and Revenants have some issues..

    No you aren't right op.. sorry but you are very wrong.. you are a niche in this game.

    @Cerioth.7062 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @Cerioth.7062 said:
    Honestly most of the issues described here would be fixed by introducing better core game tutorialization that forces you to learn your abilities and counter mobs.

    Perhaps, so, but I don't really like things that are 'forced'. /shrug

    Why even bother playing the game if you do not want to learn its mechanics? How is the game going to make you learn gameplay if you can indefinitely avoid it?

    Obviously it does not have to be a per character thing, can just be once per account thing that you can repeat as needed.

    Its not the mechanics to learn i'm on 250ping as an Aussie and hot is inundated with cheap shot mechanics designed to bully customers to death.. not fun in the slightest to play.. Even as an 8 year vet i try to avoid Hot and i've only ever completed pof once.. its just not a fun aspect to deal with daily..

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Croc.1978 said:
    Yes, difficulty in HoT is fine as it is.

    That said, there's really nothing that prepares players for what awaits them in the green hell before they enter it. They probably intended Silverwastes to be that preparation, but it doesn't work. And nerfing Orr post-release was a mistake.

    I guess the best advise you could give new players now is:

    • play Orr
    • play Silverwastes (not RIBA) for a while
    • start PoF and get at least Raptor with canyon jump
    • enter Verdant Brink

    I think the best advice is toncomplete pof and play hot as a prequel.

    That wont help you need minimum Glider, Bunny and a Flying mount to avoid a good chunk of deaths..

    In case anyone was actually planning to listen to this guy, let me just save you the trouble with this video of an HoT champion solo that anyone (even Dante here!) can do. As a bonus, I'm wearing green gear that costs about 2s per piece so anyone can afford it. I've also slotted all signets for utilities and no weapon swap to avoid any complications. You can literally just push buttons at random with this build and win. The only thing that matters is pushing dodge and auto attack over and over.

    Seriously, Dante, do yourself a favor and try this. You might begin to realize what people are trying to tell you and what you never could have learned playing through content once and then complaining about it endlessly for years. Find a build that works. This one happens to work even if you don't want to!

    I can pass that one.. i noticed you used stave mesmer not greatsword? did you try elementalist? also try the tengu or vinetooth.. try the chak and rolling thing.. You cherry pick a relatively easy one and say Hot is doable.. Try soloing Tangled depths hero points i soloed about 2 in that map.. the rest obliterated me.

    Lets see you do Balthazar solo.

    Sure thing, chief.

    I bet those aren't you, and those are half a year ago.. before a lot of changes especially the mushroom it was in Jan, but kudos to those players, i wish i had ping times to rival those players..

    Here you go, Dante. Links to my youtube channel and the forum threads I've maintained for years focusing on open world builds for mesmer and elementalist, including variants designed to help players who struggle with expansion/story content but aren't mechanically inclined. If my Balthazar solo isn't current enough for you, perhaps you'd care to watch my VB night meta boss trio solo from 3 weeks ago?

    In any event, if you need help with hero points in HoT I regularly assist other players with that. I don't like to lead big squads, so it would just be you and me. Quicker that way, since we don't have to wait for stragglers and I can solo the champs down in about a minute. You'd get some hero points pain-free and see for yourself what elementalist is capable of in open world!

    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCVfOCi7TrvGxoYKLE0C6NcA

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/107218/open-world-domination-fire-weaver

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/30394/open-world-domination-mirage

    I usually just wait for HP trains myself.. but thanks either way, I'm on Sea of Sorrows so i doubt we are in the same server. Well done on those HPs, again i wish i had your ping times, i feel i'd solo a lot more, but being 250-400ish ping i don't have most chances.

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Cerioth.7062 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Cerioth.7062 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Hot is not "easy to solo" gliders and mounts help a lot.. try soloing without them.. New customers have to.. Classes are so unbalanced a Engi, Necro and a Guardian can storm through the maps while Warrior, Ele and Mesmer get killed every second.. Even Rangers and Revenants have some issues..

    No you aren't right op.. sorry but you are very wrong.. you are a niche in this game.

    @Cerioth.7062 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @Cerioth.7062 said:
    Honestly most of the issues described here would be fixed by introducing better core game tutorialization that forces you to learn your abilities and counter mobs.

    Perhaps, so, but I don't really like things that are 'forced'. /shrug

    Why even bother playing the game if you do not want to learn its mechanics? How is the game going to make you learn gameplay if you can indefinitely avoid it?

    Obviously it does not have to be a per character thing, can just be once per account thing that you can repeat as needed.

    Its not the mechanics to learn i'm on 250ping as an Aussie and hot is inundated with cheap shot mechanics designed to bully customers to death.. not fun in the slightest to play.. Even as an 8 year vet i try to avoid Hot and i've only ever completed pof once.. its just not a fun aspect to deal with daily..

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Croc.1978 said:
    Yes, difficulty in HoT is fine as it is.

    That said, there's really nothing that prepares players for what awaits them in the green hell before they enter it. They probably intended Silverwastes to be that preparation, but it doesn't work. And nerfing Orr post-release was a mistake.

    I guess the best advise you could give new players now is:

    • play Orr
    • play Silverwastes (not RIBA) for a while
    • start PoF and get at least Raptor with canyon jump
    • enter Verdant Brink

    I think the best advice is toncomplete pof and play hot as a prequel.

    That wont help you need minimum Glider, Bunny and a Flying mount to avoid a good chunk of deaths..

    I have played through that same content with high ping as well, and do not feel bullied in the slightest. I also have a plenty of 300 ping AUS and asian friends who do not struggle with the content.

    You dont need flying mount or glider in pof.

    Eh? Confused as to how this is relevant to anything. You indeed do not need those for PoF. Nor mounts for HoT.

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Cerioth.7062 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Hot is not "easy to solo" gliders and mounts help a lot.. try soloing without them.. New customers have to.. Classes are so unbalanced a Engi, Necro and a Guardian can storm through the maps while Warrior, Ele and Mesmer get killed every second.. Even Rangers and Revenants have some issues..

    No you aren't right op.. sorry but you are very wrong.. you are a niche in this game.

    @Cerioth.7062 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @Cerioth.7062 said:
    Honestly most of the issues described here would be fixed by introducing better core game tutorialization that forces you to learn your abilities and counter mobs.

    Perhaps, so, but I don't really like things that are 'forced'. /shrug

    Why even bother playing the game if you do not want to learn its mechanics? How is the game going to make you learn gameplay if you can indefinitely avoid it?

    Obviously it does not have to be a per character thing, can just be once per account thing that you can repeat as needed.

    Its not the mechanics to learn i'm on 250ping as an Aussie and hot is inundated with cheap shot mechanics designed to bully customers to death.. not fun in the slightest to play.. Even as an 8 year vet i try to avoid Hot and i've only ever completed pof once.. its just not a fun aspect to deal with daily..

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Croc.1978 said:
    Yes, difficulty in HoT is fine as it is.

    That said, there's really nothing that prepares players for what awaits them in the green hell before they enter it. They probably intended Silverwastes to be that preparation, but it doesn't work. And nerfing Orr post-release was a mistake.

    I guess the best advise you could give new players now is:

    • play Orr
    • play Silverwastes (not RIBA) for a while
    • start PoF and get at least Raptor with canyon jump
    • enter Verdant Brink

    I think the best advice is toncomplete pof and play hot as a prequel.

    That wont help you need minimum Glider, Bunny and a Flying mount to avoid a good chunk of deaths..

    I have played through that same content with high ping as well, and do not feel bullied in the slightest. I also have a plenty of 300 ping AUS and asian friends who do not struggle with the content.

    Great and i have a lot that say otherwise. we go round and around.. even yesterday i saw customers angry an frustrated in hot.. that isn't good gaming imo. Also i don't know if it was my time zone but for me Tangled Depths was beyond empty mostly.. not even events.

    Then perhaps it is time for all these individuals to look into what they can do in order to improve their own gameplay, instead of demanding for content to be nerfed.

    Someone someone suggested that you need to get the raptor so you should do the first part of pof before hot which to me seeks weird. You want to have some kind of narrative structure so doing 1 part of pof going back to hot and then going back to pof to finish it seems weird to me.

    The devs want the content super hard so it takes longer to pass.. The way customers are suggesting is an easier route but breaks the games story for customers. Sadly if i was new i'd completely avoid HOT till i had at least 5 mounts and then do HOT, focusing on my glider first. Strange that following the story in this game is actually punishing customers.. but hey thats GW2 after Tyria's bright start.

    You can play pve with anyone that is on a north American server. Its not restricted to just sea of sorrows.

  • Rauderi.8706Rauderi.8706 Member ✭✭✭✭

    HoT isn't "Dark Souls hard", but it isn't properly tuned, either. Critters in HoT have too much of something (damage, health, mitigation) that is out of sync with player tools to counter/mitigate. Breakbars get plenty of use, but either the timers on them are too short or the required Defiance is too high for a solo player.
    I'm not suggesting a massive nerf, but it does need tweaks to align monster skills with player skills.

    Many alts! Handle it!

    "A condescending answer might as well not be an answer at all."
    -Eloc Freidon.5692

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Rauderi.8706 said:
    "Dark Souls hard"

    Dark Souls isn't even hard, so that term makes no sense.

  • Jura.2170Jura.2170 Member ✭✭✭

    Mouth of Mordremoth is too easy and should be harder, or should have more health
    Drakkar should also have more health. He's suppose to be a legendary dragon

    please make a Taimi voice mail pack
    my QoL wishes

  • coso.9173coso.9173 Member ✭✭✭✭

    HoT is fine, there's still big groups doing events, just get better at it, GW2 is a game with fast paced combat and that includes having fast reflexes too. it's an important part of the game.

  • Hashberry.4510Hashberry.4510 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Sheesh cc is a tool for more than breaking bars. Use it in every fight, things will go much smoother.

  • ASP.8093ASP.8093 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 17, 2020

    Most of the HoT mobs don't seem to have much more HP than core open-world enemies, and they're usually only clustered in packs of 3 or 4. Except for "mini-mini-boss" enemies like the big dinos, fights tend to be quick and brutal rather than HP-burning slogfests. I like the way it's tuned.

    The thing that put me off of Guild Wars 2 when HoT came out was actually the Desert Borderlands, which was very tedious to navigate before mounts and gliding.

  • WorldofBay.8160WorldofBay.8160 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 17, 2020

    @Rauderi.8706 said:
    Breakbars get plenty of use, but either the timers on them are too short or the required Defiance is too high for a solo player.

    i'm experiencing the exact opposite: i break the bar in one go at ease but all my cooldowns are done way before it replenishes, so i want to stun it again but can't because the timer is too long.

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    The biggest change they did was remove the "pull" from the Risen Putrifier, which were the highest offenders in Orr, making moving around a pain. They are the Risen with the anchor, they have a skill similar to Guardian GS 4, they create a symbol under them, in the old days they would then throw the anchor at a player and it would attach on them. Then they'd pull the anchor back, pulling the player with it, on top of the symbol, to damage them. You could get away from the chill spam, but getting pulled back a long distance, into a long forgotten group of mobs that you've already avoided, was not fun.

    interesting that they nevertheless added earth olmakhan in kourna that pull with virtually zero cooldown. as i run a perma-swiftness build i am used to outrun any mob, most times not getting hit at all. that one olmakhan however managed to pull me thrice before i could run out of his aggro zone and it would've been 5 times at least if i hadn't blocked the fourth

    seems they don't learn from their mistakes at all.

    i do remember the wolf damage and i never thought it was overtuned. the champiopn wolf in sw regularly downed one player per attack but he attacked so rarely and had no defenses whatsoever plus a rather big group of players against him that he desparately needed that damage to be any threat at all. nowadays 5 people with mounts clear him like a veteran mob.

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @Croc.1978 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @Croc.1978 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Croc.1978 said:
    On the other hand, one adapts to circumstances.

    Orr mobs were actually buffed later on. They added the Risen Nobles that deal high amounts of damage (probably the highest damage potential of all mobs in Orr) with their shadow teleport skill that creates a symbol, and then they also changed how Risen Drakes work, leaving pools of poison behind them when they charge. Both abilities weren't available on release. Anyway, everyone remembers the "nerf of Orr" but maybe forgot the "buff of Orr".

    Interesting. From my memory the numbers of the Risen in Orr maps were much higher at release though. But my memory could be mistaken.

    BTW, do you happen to know what's the deal with Champion Risen Knights? Their ground AoE does rather ordinary damage for a while and then suddenly it spikes you for 20k - 30k. I can't remember that obvious bug being there when the game released.

    I spend very little time in the core game, but if those are the flying undead guys I think they move toward their target dropping multiple circles. If the circles stack on where you're standing you can be hit by multiple at once.

    OK, but that doesn't really explain the extreme spike (yes, those are the flying guys). I've fought them with 25k health, 3k armour and 12% damage reduction and got insta-downed by a single pulse from almost full health. Happened to me twice.

    I guess I will try to reproduce it to check the combat log afterwards.

    If enough of those circles pile up and strike at the same time it could appear to happen instantly or in 1 hit.

    This is a problem on bandit champions that throw those little torches, too. They throw more of them if there are more targets, but if those targets are stacked...look out!

    in the core tyria story instance "Ossuary of Unquiet Dead" there is a risen abomination that does around 20k dmg per hit, onehitting every squishy player. getting hit by it is rather easy because it has hitboxes like the huge abominations while being rather small, so visually you're far away but you still get hit. also the slam on the ground has a huge radius that has no size hint whatsoever. the champion risen knight that guards an HP in malchor's leap also has attacks that strong iirc, at least my memory says "avoid this creature at any cost if you're solo".

    overall HoT has a few offenders, like the veteran bristleback that isn't bursted down that fast and has a multihit that outlasts 2 dodges and a block as auto-attack or young wyverns that still show no red circle/other hint where they set their deadly fire circle (not talking about the legendary ones with their lanes of puke, those are totally fine to have no hint) but nothing in HoT is "super hard". the concept of HoT HPs was that they are not soloable at all which is also the reason why they provide 10 HP instead of 1 as in core tyria. however the ground level HP in verdant brink got nerfed so hard that it is easily soloable and the whole world of PoF made 10p HPs laughably easy, much easier than 1p HPs in core tyria even, which makes HoT look ridiculously overtuned in reminiscence.

    i don't get people that want HoT to be soloable at all, that area is fully optional, HoT masteries are leveled best in LS3 and are not very important anywhere outside HoT. if you don't like group content in the open world, play core tyria or PoF. but the meaning of an MMORPG is open/random group content and we can only really enjoy that in HoT, so don't take it away.

  • Kichwas.7152Kichwas.7152 Member ✭✭✭

    The fact that you can use mounts all over HoT has already nerfed it to the point of being trivially easy.

    Having been in this game since beta...

    I've seen this "that is too hard and needs to be nerfed" argument for... basically everything.

    I remember when it was being made about Champion mobs in Orr.
    I remember when it was being made about the Story Mode Ascalonina dungeon. I remember when Story Mode of Twilight Arbor was "needing a nerf".
    I remember when the event to defeat the Giant in the Town of Nagaling in Diessa plains was seen as unfairly difficult...

    • these things are all seen as trivial content these days.

    When World of Warcraft put out WoW Classic they were accused of having nerfed it to be easier. They ran the numbers to make sure they hadn't made a mistake and found that no - they had done it right. What had occurred was nearly 15 years of player skill.

    Everything gets easier once you learn how to use the skills of your character, learning about dodging, learn about so many things...

    And with HoT - the one thing that truly made it harder than pre-HoT, the dense maps and hard to reach spots, is a moot point with mounts and gliding...

    I'd almost argue it doesn't need a nerf, it needs a buff.

    Just say no to butt-flaps.

  • Gibson.4036Gibson.4036 Member ✭✭
    edited September 17, 2020

    Bristlebacks. There seems to be no cooldown on their barrage. I burn through my dodge and projectile defense, and they're still hurling wave after wave of spikes at me. I've read people say that if you strafe they can't turn fast enough to keep the barrage on you, but that is not my experience. Is there a trick to them?

    Pocket raptors. I tend to play AoE or cleave type builds, which makes these not such a big deal. But they seem to really take out people who don't play AoE builds. Is the answer that you have to pick AoE to survive HoT?

    AoE ground skills. HoT designers really had a thing for this. There are times where a handful of foes can cover the area so thoroughly that there literally is no place to not "stand in the fire".

    Those are the specific issues I can think of that I've consistently run across in HoT. Would love pointers on dealing with them.

  • @Gibson.4036 said:
    Pocket raptors. I tend to play AoE or cleave type builds, which makes these not such a big deal. But they seem to really take out people who don't play AoE builds. Is the answer that you have to pick AoE to survive HoT?

    any damage output while blocking melts those raptors, also taking the initiative helps a lot: if you kill off 2-3 before they hit you, the pack is a lot easier.

    pocket raptors are a natural counter to single-target dps builds, so in that you just came to the wrong neighborhood and have to run. running however works fairly well, pocket raptors always walk straight away from you after biting, no matter if it hit or not and they only apply bleeding, no cripple, so they help you run away by running themselves and don't obstruct you.

    i have to say i never had problems against them but i played a rather defensive build on my mesmer (sword 2 in the old long evade ... need i say more how to deal with them back then?) when i started HoT and later came the chrono with shield double block + wells and the rev with shield + glint aoe (which quite literally burns through pocket raptors), so i haven't really experienced the squishy side. i can imagine ranged weapons being clearly inferior as they lack the AoE in auto-attacks. auto-attacks might not be the most damaging thing but they never lock you in active frames and against pocket raptors mobility helps a lot.
    no AoE and ranged? you can only hope being a ranger that can send his pet first but ... a ranged ranger does have AoE, so there isn't that problem in the first place ...

  • Gibson.4036Gibson.4036 Member ✭✭
    edited September 17, 2020

    @WorldofBay.8160 said:

    @Gibson.4036 said:
    Pocket raptors. I tend to play AoE or cleave type builds, which makes these not such a big deal. But they seem to really take out people who don't play AoE builds. Is the answer that you have to pick AoE to survive HoT?

    any damage output while blocking melts those raptors, also taking the initiative helps a lot: if you kill off 2-3 before they hit you, the pack is a lot easier.

    pocket raptors are a natural counter to single-target dps builds, so in that you just came to the wrong neighborhood and have to run. running however works fairly well, pocket raptors always walk straight away from you after biting, no matter if it hit or not and they only apply bleeding, no cripple, so they help you run away by running themselves and don't obstruct you.

    That's good info, thanks. I've never had much problem with them as I tend to prefer AoE builds. Bounding Staff DD, Axe Mirage, and Holosmith are my main characters, and they all take out groups of pocket raptors easily. I've seen others get messed up by them, though, so I thought I'd ask.

    Now that I think about it, one of the issues with them for players is probably that they are tiny and hard to notice until they are surrounding you, which keeps ranged players from taking them out at a distance before getting swarmed.

  • @Gibson.4036 said:
    Bristlebacks. There seems to be no cooldown on their barrage. I burn through my dodge and projectile defense, and they're still hurling wave after wave of spikes at me. I've read people say that if you strafe they can't turn fast enough to keep the barrage on you, but that is not my experience. Is there a trick to them?

    Pocket raptors. I tend to play AoE or cleave type builds, which makes these not such a big deal. But they seem to really take out people who don't play AoE builds. Is the answer that you have to pick AoE to survive HoT?

    AoE ground skills. HoT designers really had a thing for this. There are times where a handful of foes can cover the area so thoroughly that there literally is no place to not "stand in the fire".

    Those are the specific issues I can think of that I've consistently run across in HoT. Would love pointers on dealing with them.

    The trick to bristlebacks is that they force many players to play defensively, which is exactly the wrong way to handle these guys. As you note, you have a limited amount of projectile defense, evasion, etc. If you exhaust all of these defenses along with CC for the breakbar and the bristleback still isn't dead because you're too busy dancing around and not dealing damage, it's going to be trouble. You don't want to keep these guys around any longer than you have to!

    I utilize projectile defense here (swirling winds and magnetic wave) to protect myself from their barrage, ignore the breakbar, and just go for the fast burn. There is no way I can survive two of these guys at once for long, so ideally I want to have at least one of them down before the second barrage. If you're out of steam and need to buy some time playing defensively after that, it's manageable when there is only one. But you still need to deal some damage eventually or you'll likely be overwhelmed.

  • It seems that noone has a clear idea of what "difficult" or "hard" means for others and even for themselves.
    Maybe we should try to clarify the terms.
    There is a consensus that newer players will hit a cliff edge once beginning HoT.
    Climbing the cliff is difficult.
    Once that's done, experience players seem to say they are on a cozy plateau that offer no challenge at all.
    Since it is a discussion about game difficulty, we might want to focus on what the cliff is made of, and maybe extend it ad vitam eternam for those who want hard content.
    IMO, the main thing that makes the game difficult for new players, is that they completely lack information so everything is random to them.

    • Attacks pattern are unknown. You don't know what the attacks are, how often or in what circumstance they occurs; the condition in which they are annoying, dangerous or fatal; how to mitigate or avoid them.
    • Mob resistance: you have no idea which mobs must be burst to death and which will resist your burst, leaving you helpless. Especially in mixed group.
    • Spawn points: you have no idea where/when a group of mobs will suddenly pop to ruin your day. Also invisible mobs.
    • Misleading UI: marking on the soil is non indicative of the dangers of attacks. Some will kill you, some mark the only safe spot. They might be hidden under leafs. Also unbreakable break-bar.
    • Confusing map: every branch is a gamble. Every path is randomly a straight path, quarter circle or half circle of random curvature. Anyway they are always looping on themselves unless you happen to notice the hidden "escape the loop" hidden somewhere on one of the way. The typical mission will be to follow a convoluted sequence of unspecified unmarked locations.
    • Inventory death. Thinking of getting rid of that 8cp useless item? Well, good luck. Be prepared to get ambushed and killed while doing so. May involve a random (re)spawn or a random patrol of stun-locking crowd.
    • Crowded space: random aggro range will ensure that you will more often than not be facing 2 or 3 pack of mobs. Be sure to pair that with very large deadly AoEs on the mob side.
    • No escape route: mounts, gliders, mushrooms are for casuals. Jumping of a cliff should always be a gambit between certain death and mostly certain death. Sometime you will add an invisible wall or an irregularity in the soil that will either block you or sending you off the ledge. For tradition sake, bats should also do that as a free attack.
    • No niceness like merchants. Those QoL elements do not apply in hard mode. It also could rob you of inventory death.

    Feel free to add to your wishlist of things to add for hard content. I think all these could be implemented in a dungeon randomly regenerated each week.

    I don't think knowledge of your build factors much in the difficulty faced by new players.
    My experience is that
    1) moving speed is very important;
    2) range build gives you a better view on the battlefield which gives you a better ability to learn attack patterns. You will still die a lot (melee range is sometime safer).

  • That is a good list, Adiabatik.

    One thing I've noticed is aggro distances and ranged mobs can create seemingly endless chains if you are playing a melee build. You end up in a fight with a melee mob that moves a bit, and in the process of killing it trigger one or two ranged mobs who stand on their spots and pewpew from a distance. Once you've dealth with the melee, you move over to the ranged to defeat it, but it stands in the aggro radius of yet another mob, ad infinitum. Areas like this mean a new player who manages to deal will be facing a matter of time until they slip up. There's very little breathing space.

    As to lacking information, there are definitely portions of the game where all you can do is go google things after you die. Not HoT, but an example for me was Ley-Energy Buildup. It took me several bounties to figure out that if I got glowing orbs around my character I needed to, very counterintuitively, go find a glowing orb to stand next to in order to not quickly die. It took a wiki search to figure out what this mechanic atually is and how it works. By the number of people I see dropping in bountie events, this still mistifies people. Some things the game explains well, others, not so much.

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Adiabatik.6714 said:
    It seems that noone has a clear idea of what "difficult" or "hard" means for others and even for themselves.
    Maybe we should try to clarify the terms.
    There is a consensus that newer players will hit a cliff edge once beginning HoT.
    Climbing the cliff is difficult.
    Once that's done, experience players seem to say they are on a cozy plateau that offer no challenge at all.
    Since it is a discussion about game difficulty, we might want to focus on what the cliff is made of, and maybe extend it ad vitam eternam for those who want hard content.
    IMO, the main thing that makes the game difficult for new players, is that they completely lack information so everything is random to them.

    • Attacks pattern are unknown. You don't know what the attacks are, how often or in what circumstance they occurs; the condition in which they are annoying, dangerous or fatal; how to mitigate or avoid them.
    • Mob resistance: you have no idea which mobs must be burst to death and which will resist your burst, leaving you helpless. Especially in mixed group.
    • Spawn points: you have no idea where/when a group of mobs will suddenly pop to ruin your day. Also invisible mobs.
    • Misleading UI: marking on the soil is non indicative of the dangers of attacks. Some will kill you, some mark the only safe spot. They might be hidden under leafs. Also unbreakable break-bar.
    • Confusing map: every branch is a gamble. Every path is randomly a straight path, quarter circle or half circle of random curvature. Anyway they are always looping on themselves unless you happen to notice the hidden "escape the loop" hidden somewhere on one of the way. The typical mission will be to follow a convoluted sequence of unspecified unmarked locations.
    • Inventory death. Thinking of getting rid of that 8cp useless item? Well, good luck. Be prepared to get ambushed and killed while doing so. May involve a random (re)spawn or a random patrol of stun-locking crowd.
    • Crowded space: random aggro range will ensure that you will more often than not be facing 2 or 3 pack of mobs. Be sure to pair that with very large deadly AoEs on the mob side.
    • No escape route: mounts, gliders, mushrooms are for casuals. Jumping of a cliff should always be a gambit between certain death and mostly certain death. Sometime you will add an invisible wall or an irregularity in the soil that will either block you or sending you off the ledge. For tradition sake, bats should also do that as a free attack.
    • No niceness like merchants. Those QoL elements do not apply in hard mode. It also could rob you of inventory death.

    Feel free to add to your wishlist of things to add for hard content. I think all these could be implemented in a dungeon randomly regenerated each week.

    I don't think knowledge of your build factors much in the difficulty faced by new players.
    My experience is that
    1) moving speed is very important;
    2) range build gives you a better view on the battlefield which gives you a better ability to learn attack patterns. You will still die a lot (melee range is sometime safer).

    most people take one look at the cliff, and say "nope". good luck in finding someone to pay for all this. unless you find a buried treasure, it aint happening

  • Hot Boy.7138Hot Boy.7138 Member ✭✭✭✭

    i soloed HoT on my awesome pre-gutted berserker chronomancer and it was some of the most fun i ever had in PvE in this game. I'll never have that much fun in open world ever again :anguished:

  • Atomos.7593Atomos.7593 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I don't know if challenging bosses should necessarily be in solo story instances, but I would not like to see difficult bosses removed from the open world. In fact I would like to see more of them as long as they are optional to defeat. It always brings a smile to my face when a large group fights the ley-infused champion hydra in Melandru's Lost Domain in Dragonfall and the hydra downs three quarters of the group in three seconds if we miss a dodge. Same for the ley-infused champion shadow elemental that can heal from 30% health to full health if no one kills the monk adds that spawn. It reminds me that some enemies can actually be dangerous and down you if you become complacent.

  • @battledrone.8315 said:

    @Adiabatik.6714 said:
    It seems that noone has a clear idea of what "difficult" or "hard" means for others and even for themselves.
    Maybe we should try to clarify the terms.
    There is a consensus that newer players will hit a cliff edge once beginning HoT.
    Climbing the cliff is difficult.
    Once that's done, experience players seem to say they are on a cozy plateau that offer no challenge at all.
    Since it is a discussion about game difficulty, we might want to focus on what the cliff is made of, and maybe extend it ad vitam eternam for those who want hard content.
    IMO, the main thing that makes the game difficult for new players, is that they completely lack information so everything is random to them.

    • Attacks pattern are unknown. You don't know what the attacks are, how often or in what circumstance they occurs; the condition in which they are annoying, dangerous or fatal; how to mitigate or avoid them.
    • Mob resistance: you have no idea which mobs must be burst to death and which will resist your burst, leaving you helpless. Especially in mixed group.
    • Spawn points: you have no idea where/when a group of mobs will suddenly pop to ruin your day. Also invisible mobs.
    • Misleading UI: marking on the soil is non indicative of the dangers of attacks. Some will kill you, some mark the only safe spot. They might be hidden under leafs. Also unbreakable break-bar.
    • Confusing map: every branch is a gamble. Every path is randomly a straight path, quarter circle or half circle of random curvature. Anyway they are always looping on themselves unless you happen to notice the hidden "escape the loop" hidden somewhere on one of the way. The typical mission will be to follow a convoluted sequence of unspecified unmarked locations.
    • Inventory death. Thinking of getting rid of that 8cp useless item? Well, good luck. Be prepared to get ambushed and killed while doing so. May involve a random (re)spawn or a random patrol of stun-locking crowd.
    • Crowded space: random aggro range will ensure that you will more often than not be facing 2 or 3 pack of mobs. Be sure to pair that with very large deadly AoEs on the mob side.
    • No escape route: mounts, gliders, mushrooms are for casuals. Jumping of a cliff should always be a gambit between certain death and mostly certain death. Sometime you will add an invisible wall or an irregularity in the soil that will either block you or sending you off the ledge. For tradition sake, bats should also do that as a free attack.
    • No niceness like merchants. Those QoL elements do not apply in hard mode. It also could rob you of inventory death.

    Feel free to add to your wishlist of things to add for hard content. I think all these could be implemented in a dungeon randomly regenerated each week.

    I don't think knowledge of your build factors much in the difficulty faced by new players.
    My experience is that
    1) moving speed is very important;
    2) range build gives you a better view on the battlefield which gives you a better ability to learn attack patterns. You will still die a lot (melee range is sometime safer).

    most people take one look at the cliff, and say "nope". good luck in finding someone to pay for all this. unless you find a buried treasure, it aint happening

    You (and I) are not "most" people. It's obvious that you strongly believe that you are representative of the average player. As a player who spends a great deal of time escorting new players through HoT, I can say that most of the players I assist have nowhere near as visceral a reaction to HoT as you do. In fact, most of them seem to appreciate the challenge (the combat if not the navigation!) but recognize that they need to tweak their build, familiarize themselves with effective strategy, and practice in order to feel comfortable on these maps. I believe that was the intent of the design as well.

    You're welcome to your opinion, but you don't speak for the average player. "Most" people aren't looking at the cliff and seeing what you see. A lot of them are rising to a challenge that the core game sorely lacks. I would know because I was one of them and I meet others every day. You don't because you don't even spend any time in HoT. How can you claim to speak for "most" players in an area you don't even venture into?

  • Astyrah.4015Astyrah.4015 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 21, 2020

    @Atomos.7593 said:
    It reminds me that some enemies can actually be dangerous and down you if you become complacent.

    you'd actually appreciate bosses that can pose a threat if not taken seriously like Drakkar where you can actually get downed/die if you ignore aoe markers or mechanics (and even then it's not even a hard boss, just a lot of health, phases and mechanics that can punish you if you ignore them)

    compare it to something like shadow behemoth which is quite a joke. you can't even die if you eat the big circle aoe (you just get knocked back) it occasionally throws at your spot where you sit and spam 1 with a ranged weapon.

  • Atomos.7593Atomos.7593 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 21, 2020

    @Astyrah.4015 said:

    @Atomos.7593 said:
    It reminds me that some enemies can actually be dangerous and down you if you become complacent.

    you'd actually appreciate bosses that can pose a threat if not taken seriously like Drakkar where you can actually get downed/die if you ignore aoe markers or mechanics (and even then it's not even a hard boss, just a lot of health, phases and mechanics that can punish you if you ignore them)

    compare it to something like shadow behemoth which is quite a joke. you can't even die if you eat the big circle aoe (you just get knocked back) it occasionally throws at your spot where you sit and spam 1 with a ranged weapon.

    Sadly I haven't been able to join a Bjora Marches meta event with Drakkar. The map seems empty every time I go there. Yeah from the GW2 Wiki it seems like there is a lot of different phases and adds that must be killed. The fight does sound fun.

    The thing I particularly liked about the two bosses I mentioned before are that you can't just use a massive group to kill the boss and ignore all individual player skill. Individually all the players will need to be able to dodge the crystals and charge from the hydra to not be cc'ed and die quickly. Similarly with the elemental the individual players need to watch for and quickly attack specific priority targets that spawn in the middle of the chaos to avoid failing.

    In HoT specifically, the hardest bosses I found were the legendary wyvern and mushroom kings, but I was able to outheal most of their damage on my rev so it wasn't too tough. Maybe those fights were harder before the HoT nerf.

  • Hesione.9412Hesione.9412 Member ✭✭✭

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @Adiabatik.6714 said:
    It seems that noone has a clear idea of what "difficult" or "hard" means for others and even for themselves.
    Maybe we should try to clarify the terms.
    There is a consensus that newer players will hit a cliff edge once beginning HoT.
    Climbing the cliff is difficult.
    Once that's done, experience players seem to say they are on a cozy plateau that offer no challenge at all.
    Since it is a discussion about game difficulty, we might want to focus on what the cliff is made of, and maybe extend it ad vitam eternam for those who want hard content.
    IMO, the main thing that makes the game difficult for new players, is that they completely lack information so everything is random to them.

    • Attacks pattern are unknown. You don't know what the attacks are, how often or in what circumstance they occurs; the condition in which they are annoying, dangerous or fatal; how to mitigate or avoid them.
    • Mob resistance: you have no idea which mobs must be burst to death and which will resist your burst, leaving you helpless. Especially in mixed group.
    • Spawn points: you have no idea where/when a group of mobs will suddenly pop to ruin your day. Also invisible mobs.
    • Misleading UI: marking on the soil is non indicative of the dangers of attacks. Some will kill you, some mark the only safe spot. They might be hidden under leafs. Also unbreakable break-bar.
    • Confusing map: every branch is a gamble. Every path is randomly a straight path, quarter circle or half circle of random curvature. Anyway they are always looping on themselves unless you happen to notice the hidden "escape the loop" hidden somewhere on one of the way. The typical mission will be to follow a convoluted sequence of unspecified unmarked locations.
    • Inventory death. Thinking of getting rid of that 8cp useless item? Well, good luck. Be prepared to get ambushed and killed while doing so. May involve a random (re)spawn or a random patrol of stun-locking crowd.
    • Crowded space: random aggro range will ensure that you will more often than not be facing 2 or 3 pack of mobs. Be sure to pair that with very large deadly AoEs on the mob side.
    • No escape route: mounts, gliders, mushrooms are for casuals. Jumping of a cliff should always be a gambit between certain death and mostly certain death. Sometime you will add an invisible wall or an irregularity in the soil that will either block you or sending you off the ledge. For tradition sake, bats should also do that as a free attack.
    • No niceness like merchants. Those QoL elements do not apply in hard mode. It also could rob you of inventory death.

    Feel free to add to your wishlist of things to add for hard content. I think all these could be implemented in a dungeon randomly regenerated each week.

    I don't think knowledge of your build factors much in the difficulty faced by new players.
    My experience is that
    1) moving speed is very important;
    2) range build gives you a better view on the battlefield which gives you a better ability to learn attack patterns. You will still die a lot (melee range is sometime safer).

    most people take one look at the cliff, and say "nope". good luck in finding someone to pay for all this. unless you find a buried treasure, it aint happening

    You (and I) are not "most" people. It's obvious that you strongly believe that you are representative of the average player. As a player who spends a great deal of time escorting new players through HoT, I can say that most of the players I assist have nowhere near as visceral a reaction to HoT as you do. In fact, most of them seem to appreciate the challenge (the combat if not the navigation!) but recognize that they need to tweak their build, familiarize themselves with effective strategy, and practice in order to feel comfortable on these maps. I believe that was the intent of the design as well.

    You're welcome to your opinion, but you don't speak for the average player. "Most" people aren't looking at the cliff and seeing what you see. A lot of them are rising to a challenge that the core game sorely lacks. I would know because I was one of them and I meet others every day. You don't because you don't even spend any time in HoT. How can you claim to speak for "most" players in an area you don't even venture into?

    Perhaps the experience of being escorted through versus the experience of not being escorted through are different.

  • @Gibson.4036 said:
    As to lacking information, there are definitely portions of the game where all you can do is go google things after you die. Not HoT, but an example for me was Ley-Energy Buildup. It took me several bounties to figure out that if I got glowing orbs around my character I needed to, very counterintuitively, go find a glowing orb to stand next to in order to not quickly die. It took a wiki search to figure out what this mechanic atually is and how it works. By the number of people I see dropping in bountie events, this still mistifies people. Some things the game explains well, others, not so much.

    it took a wiki search for you but you might've just looked at the corresponding effect on the bounty and read the solution ingame:
    Find ley-energy orbs to discharge damaging buildup.
    or you could've looked at that new effect on your end:
    Find an active ley-energy orb to discharge.

  • ASP.8093ASP.8093 Member ✭✭✭

    @Hesione.9412 said:
    Perhaps the experience of being escorted through versus the experience of not being escorted through are different.

    I made a friend playing WvW who's been doing PvE as well. Started like three weeks ago, bought the expansion last week. We did a but if PoF together to fast-track some espec unlocks. Their response to starting HoT (alone) was "Hey, this is a lot harder than the other zones!" —100% surprise and 0% complaint, as far as I could tell. They're a well-rounded player who also likes Fractals, WvW, and SPvP; HoT seems to fit just into that.

  • ArchonWing.9480ArchonWing.9480 Member ✭✭✭✭

    HoT open world is the only open world I still enjoy. Please don't water it down.

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 21, 2020

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @Adiabatik.6714 said:
    It seems that noone has a clear idea of what "difficult" or "hard" means for others and even for themselves.
    Maybe we should try to clarify the terms.
    There is a consensus that newer players will hit a cliff edge once beginning HoT.
    Climbing the cliff is difficult.
    Once that's done, experience players seem to say they are on a cozy plateau that offer no challenge at all.
    Since it is a discussion about game difficulty, we might want to focus on what the cliff is made of, and maybe extend it ad vitam eternam for those who want hard content.
    IMO, the main thing that makes the game difficult for new players, is that they completely lack information so everything is random to them.

    • Attacks pattern are unknown. You don't know what the attacks are, how often or in what circumstance they occurs; the condition in which they are annoying, dangerous or fatal; how to mitigate or avoid them.
    • Mob resistance: you have no idea which mobs must be burst to death and which will resist your burst, leaving you helpless. Especially in mixed group.
    • Spawn points: you have no idea where/when a group of mobs will suddenly pop to ruin your day. Also invisible mobs.
    • Misleading UI: marking on the soil is non indicative of the dangers of attacks. Some will kill you, some mark the only safe spot. They might be hidden under leafs. Also unbreakable break-bar.
    • Confusing map: every branch is a gamble. Every path is randomly a straight path, quarter circle or half circle of random curvature. Anyway they are always looping on themselves unless you happen to notice the hidden "escape the loop" hidden somewhere on one of the way. The typical mission will be to follow a convoluted sequence of unspecified unmarked locations.
    • Inventory death. Thinking of getting rid of that 8cp useless item? Well, good luck. Be prepared to get ambushed and killed while doing so. May involve a random (re)spawn or a random patrol of stun-locking crowd.
    • Crowded space: random aggro range will ensure that you will more often than not be facing 2 or 3 pack of mobs. Be sure to pair that with very large deadly AoEs on the mob side.
    • No escape route: mounts, gliders, mushrooms are for casuals. Jumping of a cliff should always be a gambit between certain death and mostly certain death. Sometime you will add an invisible wall or an irregularity in the soil that will either block you or sending you off the ledge. For tradition sake, bats should also do that as a free attack.
    • No niceness like merchants. Those QoL elements do not apply in hard mode. It also could rob you of inventory death.

    Feel free to add to your wishlist of things to add for hard content. I think all these could be implemented in a dungeon randomly regenerated each week.

    I don't think knowledge of your build factors much in the difficulty faced by new players.
    My experience is that
    1) moving speed is very important;
    2) range build gives you a better view on the battlefield which gives you a better ability to learn attack patterns. You will still die a lot (melee range is sometime safer).

    most people take one look at the cliff, and say "nope". good luck in finding someone to pay for all this. unless you find a buried treasure, it aint happening

    You (and I) are not "most" people. It's obvious that you strongly believe that you are representative of the average player. As a player who spends a great deal of time escorting new players through HoT, I can say that most of the players I assist have nowhere near as visceral a reaction to HoT as you do. In fact, most of them seem to appreciate the challenge (the combat if not the navigation!) but recognize that they need to tweak their build, familiarize themselves with effective strategy, and practice in order to feel comfortable on these maps. I believe that was the intent of the design as well.

    You're welcome to your opinion, but you don't speak for the average player. "Most" people aren't looking at the cliff and seeing what you see. A lot of them are rising to a challenge that the core game sorely lacks. I would know because I was one of them and I meet others every day. You don't because you don't even spend any time in HoT. How can you claim to speak for "most" players in an area you don't even venture into?

    turns out i am actually BETTER than average (in this game at least) . i am STILL in the top 10 % APs.
    how do you explain THAT one? if all those happy players had done hot and beyond, that wouldnt be the case, would it?

  • Laila Lightness.8742Laila Lightness.8742 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 21, 2020

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @Adiabatik.6714 said:
    It seems that noone has a clear idea of what "difficult" or "hard" means for others and even for themselves.
    Maybe we should try to clarify the terms.
    There is a consensus that newer players will hit a cliff edge once beginning HoT.
    Climbing the cliff is difficult.
    Once that's done, experience players seem to say they are on a cozy plateau that offer no challenge at all.
    Since it is a discussion about game difficulty, we might want to focus on what the cliff is made of, and maybe extend it ad vitam eternam for those who want hard content.
    IMO, the main thing that makes the game difficult for new players, is that they completely lack information so everything is random to them.

    • Attacks pattern are unknown. You don't know what the attacks are, how often or in what circumstance they occurs; the condition in which they are annoying, dangerous or fatal; how to mitigate or avoid them.
    • Mob resistance: you have no idea which mobs must be burst to death and which will resist your burst, leaving you helpless. Especially in mixed group.
    • Spawn points: you have no idea where/when a group of mobs will suddenly pop to ruin your day. Also invisible mobs.
    • Misleading UI: marking on the soil is non indicative of the dangers of attacks. Some will kill you, some mark the only safe spot. They might be hidden under leafs. Also unbreakable break-bar.
    • Confusing map: every branch is a gamble. Every path is randomly a straight path, quarter circle or half circle of random curvature. Anyway they are always looping on themselves unless you happen to notice the hidden "escape the loop" hidden somewhere on one of the way. The typical mission will be to follow a convoluted sequence of unspecified unmarked locations.
    • Inventory death. Thinking of getting rid of that 8cp useless item? Well, good luck. Be prepared to get ambushed and killed while doing so. May involve a random (re)spawn or a random patrol of stun-locking crowd.
    • Crowded space: random aggro range will ensure that you will more often than not be facing 2 or 3 pack of mobs. Be sure to pair that with very large deadly AoEs on the mob side.
    • No escape route: mounts, gliders, mushrooms are for casuals. Jumping of a cliff should always be a gambit between certain death and mostly certain death. Sometime you will add an invisible wall or an irregularity in the soil that will either block you or sending you off the ledge. For tradition sake, bats should also do that as a free attack.
    • No niceness like merchants. Those QoL elements do not apply in hard mode. It also could rob you of inventory death.

    Feel free to add to your wishlist of things to add for hard content. I think all these could be implemented in a dungeon randomly regenerated each week.

    I don't think knowledge of your build factors much in the difficulty faced by new players.
    My experience is that
    1) moving speed is very important;
    2) range build gives you a better view on the battlefield which gives you a better ability to learn attack patterns. You will still die a lot (melee range is sometime safer).

    most people take one look at the cliff, and say "nope". good luck in finding someone to pay for all this. unless you find a buried treasure, it aint happening

    You (and I) are not "most" people. It's obvious that you strongly believe that you are representative of the average player. As a player who spends a great deal of time escorting new players through HoT, I can say that most of the players I assist have nowhere near as visceral a reaction to HoT as you do. In fact, most of them seem to appreciate the challenge (the combat if not the navigation!) but recognize that they need to tweak their build, familiarize themselves with effective strategy, and practice in order to feel comfortable on these maps. I believe that was the intent of the design as well.

    You're welcome to your opinion, but you don't speak for the average player. "Most" people aren't looking at the cliff and seeing what you see. A lot of them are rising to a challenge that the core game sorely lacks. I would know because I was one of them and I meet others every day. You don't because you don't even spend any time in HoT. How can you claim to speak for "most" players in an area you don't even venture into?

    turns out i am actually BETTER than average (in this game at least) . i am STILL in the top 10 % APs.
    how do you explain THAT one? if all those happy players had done hot and beyond, that wouldnt be the case, would it?

    Ap dont mean anything tho as you can gain high ap without ever touching harder content. Before hot ap meant something in dungeons unless you played necro or ranger so no ap dont merit skill . You think you are right most ppl actually want to play a game not click and wait to win . You want a game wich is easy there is many others. Ppl who enjoyed core also got bored as there was no incentive of improvement as you only ever needed to use one skill your auto. But diffrence you dont want to improve you want everything else to be made easy so game can hold your hand more. You dont represent avrage player. As the avrage player would learn eventually you quited the second it got demanding and shouts its impossible. Dark souls isnt hard its a game there you learn from mistakes and get better. In core everything was same in difficulty orr was no harder than queensdale so game had no challenge to overcome just same enemies with diffrent skins and sounds to drone away by auto attacking

  • Gibson.4036Gibson.4036 Member ✭✭
    edited September 21, 2020

    @WorldofBay.8160 said:

    it took a wiki search for you but you might've just looked at the corresponding effect on the bounty and read the solution ingame:
    Find ley-energy orbs to discharge damaging buildup.
    or you could've looked at that new effect on your end:
    Find an active ley-energy orb to discharge.

    I take it you mean by doing mouseovers for the effect icons?

    I've tried to do a little of that in some places, but it's quite the challenge to find the right icon in a sea of effect icons while also dancing around the markings on the groung in the middle of a cloud of fireworks. If someone is having trouble with an event, "mouse over the icons and read the tooltips" is about the most awkward communication the game could provide.

    There are many visual effects in the game that are designed with clarity even in the heat of the battle. Others, not so much.

    Granted, it seems there are a significant amount of players that don't even understand "circle with arrows in" versus "circle with arrows out", which is one of the biggest, simplest neon signs in the game, but there are some like Ley Energ Buildup that I still think are designed counterintuitive. The design seems inconsistent.

    Even with written out tips, sometimes they are unmissable, big words across the upper middle of your screen, sometimes it's small text off to the upper right you need to know to watch for in order to get instructions on what is happening.

  • ASP.8093ASP.8093 Member ✭✭✭

    I also find the disco balls to be a muddled mechanic visually:

    1. The screen effect doesn't really communicate your level of "buildup" very clearly, imo -- you don't actually need to dive into the energy sink right away, but it can sorta feel like you do. (Compare to the Bjora Marches ice-over effect, which has a much clearer "oh no this is escalating" visual style.)

    2. The energy sink itself doesn't really look like anything. To me, the static floaty orbs don't communicate "energy is moving here, this is the place to go," and because they're white and the screen effect is white, it's actually harder to notice them when you really need them.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    how do you explain THAT one? if all those happy players had done hot and beyond, that wouldnt be the case, would it?

    It simply means the vast majority of players that bought this game, and those that tried it since it got free, quit it a very very long time before reaching your "level".

  • @Gibson.4036 said:

    @WorldofBay.8160 said:

    it took a wiki search for you but you might've just looked at the corresponding effect on the bounty and read the solution ingame:
    Find ley-energy orbs to discharge damaging buildup.
    or you could've looked at that new effect on your end:
    Find an active ley-energy orb to discharge.

    I take it you mean by doing mouseovers for the effect icons?

    I've tried to do a little of that in some places, but it's quite the challenge to find the right icon in a sea of effect icons while also dancing around the markings on the groung in the middle of a cloud of fireworks. If someone is having trouble with an event, "mouse over the icons and read the tooltips" is about the most awkward communication the game could provide.

    you can post those effects in any chat. if you know you have trouble reading these kinds of effects in a battle try the following: open a whisper with yourself. ctrl + left click any icon you don't recognize immediately to post them all in your superprivate whisper. now you have those effects all in your chat, easily visible and readable (mouseover ofc still needed) and can read them mid-battle.
    i do that quite often, though i use guild chat as i have a rather empty guild where it doesn't bother others.

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 22, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    how do you explain THAT one? if all those happy players had done hot and beyond, that wouldnt be the case, would it?

    It simply means the vast majority of players that bought this game, and those that tried it since it got free, quit it a very very long time before reaching your "level".

    but if so many players, as you claim , had done hot and beyond, they would had earned more APS than me , right?
    i should be WAY further down the list, specially since i havent played for so long now.
    what happened to them? did they hurry up and uninstall the game before the achievement got registered?
    i also note, that your response validates the blizzard ratios even more.
    and its quite funny, that a filthy casual, like me, still did more, than the majority of players in this game

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @Adiabatik.6714 said:
    It seems that noone has a clear idea of what "difficult" or "hard" means for others and even for themselves.
    Maybe we should try to clarify the terms.
    There is a consensus that newer players will hit a cliff edge once beginning HoT.
    Climbing the cliff is difficult.
    Once that's done, experience players seem to say they are on a cozy plateau that offer no challenge at all.
    Since it is a discussion about game difficulty, we might want to focus on what the cliff is made of, and maybe extend it ad vitam eternam for those who want hard content.
    IMO, the main thing that makes the game difficult for new players, is that they completely lack information so everything is random to them.

    • Attacks pattern are unknown. You don't know what the attacks are, how often or in what circumstance they occurs; the condition in which they are annoying, dangerous or fatal; how to mitigate or avoid them.
    • Mob resistance: you have no idea which mobs must be burst to death and which will resist your burst, leaving you helpless. Especially in mixed group.
    • Spawn points: you have no idea where/when a group of mobs will suddenly pop to ruin your day. Also invisible mobs.
    • Misleading UI: marking on the soil is non indicative of the dangers of attacks. Some will kill you, some mark the only safe spot. They might be hidden under leafs. Also unbreakable break-bar.
    • Confusing map: every branch is a gamble. Every path is randomly a straight path, quarter circle or half circle of random curvature. Anyway they are always looping on themselves unless you happen to notice the hidden "escape the loop" hidden somewhere on one of the way. The typical mission will be to follow a convoluted sequence of unspecified unmarked locations.
    • Inventory death. Thinking of getting rid of that 8cp useless item? Well, good luck. Be prepared to get ambushed and killed while doing so. May involve a random (re)spawn or a random patrol of stun-locking crowd.
    • Crowded space: random aggro range will ensure that you will more often than not be facing 2 or 3 pack of mobs. Be sure to pair that with very large deadly AoEs on the mob side.
    • No escape route: mounts, gliders, mushrooms are for casuals. Jumping of a cliff should always be a gambit between certain death and mostly certain death. Sometime you will add an invisible wall or an irregularity in the soil that will either block you or sending you off the ledge. For tradition sake, bats should also do that as a free attack.
    • No niceness like merchants. Those QoL elements do not apply in hard mode. It also could rob you of inventory death.

    Feel free to add to your wishlist of things to add for hard content. I think all these could be implemented in a dungeon randomly regenerated each week.

    I don't think knowledge of your build factors much in the difficulty faced by new players.
    My experience is that
    1) moving speed is very important;
    2) range build gives you a better view on the battlefield which gives you a better ability to learn attack patterns. You will still die a lot (melee range is sometime safer).

    most people take one look at the cliff, and say "nope". good luck in finding someone to pay for all this. unless you find a buried treasure, it aint happening

    You (and I) are not "most" people. It's obvious that you strongly believe that you are representative of the average player. As a player who spends a great deal of time escorting new players through HoT, I can say that most of the players I assist have nowhere near as visceral a reaction to HoT as you do. In fact, most of them seem to appreciate the challenge (the combat if not the navigation!) but recognize that they need to tweak their build, familiarize themselves with effective strategy, and practice in order to feel comfortable on these maps. I believe that was the intent of the design as well.

    You're welcome to your opinion, but you don't speak for the average player. "Most" people aren't looking at the cliff and seeing what you see. A lot of them are rising to a challenge that the core game sorely lacks. I would know because I was one of them and I meet others every day. You don't because you don't even spend any time in HoT. How can you claim to speak for "most" players in an area you don't even venture into?

    turns out i am actually BETTER than average (in this game at least) . i am STILL in the top 10 % APs.
    how do you explain THAT one? if all those happy players had done hot and beyond, that wouldnt be the case, would it?

    Ap dont mean anything tho as you can gain high ap without ever touching harder content. Before hot ap meant something in dungeons unless you played necro or ranger so no ap dont merit skill . You think you are right most ppl actually want to play a game not click and wait to win . You want a game wich is easy there is many others. Ppl who enjoyed core also got bored as there was no incentive of improvement as you only ever needed to use one skill your auto. But diffrence you dont want to improve you want everything else to be made easy so game can hold your hand more. You dont represent avrage player. As the avrage player would learn eventually you quited the second it got demanding and shouts its impossible. Dark souls isnt hard its a game there you learn from mistakes and get better. In core everything was same in difficulty orr was no harder than queensdale so game had no challenge to overcome just same enemies with diffrent skins and sounds to drone away by auto attacking

    but you cant finish story content WITHOUT getting APs, and that means, that active players should had pushed me way further down the list.
    and if you believe, that orr has same difficulty, as queensdale, i have nothing more to say to you

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    how do you explain THAT one? if all those happy players had done hot and beyond, that wouldnt be the case, would it?

    It simply means the vast majority of players that bought this game, and those that tried it since it got free, quit it a very very long time before reaching your "level".

    but if so many players, as you claim , had done hot and beyond, they would had earned more APS than me , right?

    No because most players stopped playing a long time before reaching HOT, a long time before reaching Orr and a long time before even joining an Order (at level 50)

    i should be WAY further down the list, specially since i havent played for so long now.

    Exactly if core was popular you should be further down the list.

    what happened to them? did they hurry up and uninstall the game before the achievement got registered?

    Yes they left the game before reaching HOT, they quit because of the Core game wasn't good enough to grab their attention.

    and its quite funny, that a filthy casual, like me, still did more, than the majority of players in this game

    That's understandable since the majority of players in this game quit before reaching level level 50. That's how good/popular core was.