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No "kp" for CM fractals. Is that gonna increase toxicity?


Fir.7932

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The main problem of "wanna play with same-skilled people" is that you learn nothing from them. They learn nothing from you. One of my greatest step ups in my skill was to get better people joining our "some kp" groups. At least those who were eager to share tips and knowledge, instead of pinging 250+kp and suck more than people who never did the cm, then blaming the rest of the team. So many times we had high kp guys being completely useless, and so many times quite new people were good enough to have flawless run. And many times we had extraordinary runs when better people joined and we got some new tricks into our repertoir.

KP is not all, the attitude is.

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@"Hanakocz.5697" said:The main problem of "wanna play with same-skilled people" is that you learn nothing from them. They learn nothing from you. One of my greatest step ups in my skill was to get better people joining our "some kp" groups. At least those who were eager to share tips and knowledge, instead of pinging 250+kp and suck more than people who never did the cm, then blaming the rest of the team. So many times we had high kp guys being completely useless, and so many times quite new people were good enough to have flawless run. And many times we had extraordinary runs when better people joined and we got some new tricks into our repertoir.

KP is not all, the attitude is.

1000 thumps up if I could. So true.Some of these people acting like they r super human (god) and rest are still going through evolution to become homo sapiens is just amazing.It really tells me their limit, not other way around.Really, those 500 kp requirement should be against lfg rule. It doesn't help community at all.

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From what i can gather on this thread it seems like the KP system was just a gate keeping mechanism the community spurted about. How is a new player suppose to earn kp if everyone is just looking for players with 100+ kp? A new player isnt going to sprout a guild or friends that can do content at the rate they can. If your pugging you should be expecting spicy shit, if you don't want to deal with that you should have a static. If you been playing that long to have 100+ kp you should have found a static by now or there is another fundamental lvl of issues of guilds being hard to find.

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@HiddenFlames.7258 said:From what i can gather on this thread it seems like the KP system was just a gate keeping mechanism the community spurted about. How is a new player suppose to earn kp if everyone is just looking for players with 100+ kp? A new player isnt going to sprout a guild or friends that can do content at the rate they can. If your pugging you should be expecting spicy kitten, if you don't want to deal with that you should have a static. If you been playing that long to have 100+ kp you should have found a static by now or there is another fundamental lvl of issues of guilds being hard to find.

Less experienced players are more than welcome to create their own groups.

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@HiddenFlames.7258 said:From what i can gather on this thread it seems like the KP system was just a gate keeping mechanism the community spurted about. How is a new player suppose to earn kp if everyone is just looking for players with 100+ kp? A new player isnt going to sprout a guild or friends that can do content at the rate they can. If your pugging you should be expecting spicy kitten, if you don't want to deal with that you should have a static. If you been playing that long to have 100+ kp you should have found a static by now or there is another fundamental lvl of issues of guilds being hard to find.

Gate keeping not neccesary (for me). I mean when I have shorter time to play for that day, I simply need to complete daily faster. Taking inexperienced group will drag from half an hour to more than an hour, that's easily doubled the time required.

Now if I do have extra time, I have more than enough inexperienced friends on my list that I can take with. Locking out to the inexperienced? Not really, since I'm actually training a new person - which I'm already doing it as of currently (person A), and I have another friend (person B ) on the queue next where his best agony was less than 100 but I donated some for B to get closer to the required AR, but I cannot take B now since I'm still training A.

Why do I prefer to train friends more than the pug? Easy. From the recent experience (the person A I'm currently training), A had less than 10 ess when A 1st joined, we took A for couple for CMs (not everyday, just whenever we have extra time for longer session), A dies a lot at the beginning, but since we know A well, we can give suggestions and feedback as what A can adjust. Of course we can also give suggestion to pugs, but from my experienced, 99% of the time, the pug won't give any acknowledgement nor ask further question after suggestion was given (quit as soon as the run is finished and won't receive feedback - referring to inexperienced), or the pug would have proud of their poor performance and fight back with hostility (oh I have many stories of it). Taking a person from the guild or friend list, means that I can also track their progress, in the case of A, each time we do CM with A, the suggestion given is different, the question A ask is also different as A has grown more understanding of the mechanics gradually, since every run is different due to the instability/group performance/RNG mechanics/etc..., I can see where A made the mistake, and give feedback rightaway, and often A is very grateful of me doing so. After couple of weeks of occasion CMs, A can now survive longer and also perform better, still make mistakes from time to time, but I can see result in A and I'm proud of A.

It's not that I want to gate keep, but training a friend would be more successful and to make sure that person will improve. Pug is usually just leave right after the run and you can see they simply here for the daily reward not so much for learning (of course there're few exceptionals but I hardly encourter any genuine learner so why bother?).

Also, I'm very scared of pug, because most of the time I'm not sure if they're sensitive or easily offended. Speaking with a friendly tone doesn't matter, it's just that I don't deal well when a person is hostile. So training a friend who I'm sure that the friend doesn't have a toxic behaviour would be better for my mental health when I need to give suggestion.

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@HiddenFlames.7258 said:From what i can gather on this thread it seems like the KP system was just a gate keeping mechanism the community spurted about. How is a new player suppose to earn kp if everyone is just looking for players with 100+ kp? A new player isnt going to sprout a guild or friends that can do content at the rate they can. If your pugging you should be expecting spicy kitten, if you don't want to deal with that you should have a static. If you been playing that long to have 100+ kp you should have found a static by now or there is another fundamental lvl of issues of guilds being hard to find.

There are low, medium and high kp groups depending on the goal for the party. Lower kp requirement groups usually fill quicker, high kp requirement groups fill slow but the run is smoother.. Most of us started by puging from 0 kp me including.. Runs are hard, because people are bad, but finding a group is easy, also when you get like 20kp which is easy you can ask nicely any 50-150kp group and they will let you stay most of the time. Without kp, people would just decide you are bad after first run (that you maybe just messed up) and kick you. Imho it's better to make your experience level clear right in lfg and join the kind of group yiu sre looking for instead of getting kicked after first boss.

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@"Hanakocz.5697" said:The main problem of "wanna play with same-skilled people" is that you learn nothing from them. They learn nothing from you. One of my greatest step ups in my skill was to get better people joining our "some kp" groups. At least those who were eager to share tips and knowledge, instead of pinging 250+kp and suck more than people who never did the cm, then blaming the rest of the team. So many times we had high kp guys being completely useless, and so many times quite new people were good enough to have flawless run. And many times we had extraordinary runs when better people joined and we got some new tricks into our repertoir.

I agree that being carried isn't a good thing and you don't learn out of it. what better system do you propose? because so far removing make it worse to get a group roughly your leveleven if kp is not perfect i was able to steadily progress with quite homogen group when now i'm sometimes dpsraced by alac or have people that fail every basic mechs and if both case there is nothing good to get out of it

KP is not all, the attitude is.@HiddenFlames.7258 said:From what i can gather on this thread it seems like the KP system was just a gate keeping mechanism the community spurted about. How is a new player suppose to earn kp if everyone is just looking for players with 100+ kp? A new player isnt going to sprout a guild or friends that can do content at the rate they can. If your pugging you should be expecting spicy kitten, if you don't want to deal with that you should have a static. If you been playing that long to have 100+ kp you should have found a static by now or there is another fundamental lvl of issues of guilds being hard to find.

I started fractal last month and got 44kp mostly out of lfg (2kill were from mystlock training) so no problem learning in lfg. biggest issue is player that make one try fail and say its all kp fault instead of training again and improve their gameplay.

Stop putting the fault on others. if people are unable to join training and learn mech it's not the due to the player that took the time to learn but their own! just stop being lazy and go learn like all did or just accept this content isn't for you ;)

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@Raknar.4735 said:There's no toxicity in statics with friends. You should try creating your own groups ¯\(ツ)

That would assume people have social skills in an MMO, and this topic would not exist. Alas... Also I suppose no matter how many ESSs you gathered up, it doesn't mean you know how to do Sunqua.

I vendored my KP, so sadface for me though.

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@Laila Lightness.8742 said:Now soon raid kp will be wiped and we can once more have anchivement point and title reqs. Kp wasnt a issue as you could made your own group all alongYou could, although without any means of prefiltering you might easily end up in a group incapable of killing the boss. The hard and uncomfortable truth is that raid bosses do require certain level of both skill and experience from the group members - a level that most players in this game did not reach. As long as that part remains true, requirements in LFGs will not disappear. And if raid KPs were to be removed, something else would replace them (possibly even more restrictive).So, if you don;t like restrictive requirements, the only sensible way to get rid of them (or make them irrelevant) is to nerf the difficulty level of the content itself.

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@Asum.4960 said:

Again, not a perfect system, but better than a title, and I doubt they will stay relevant for long when people come up with something else even clunkier like stacks of Abyssal Infusions or linking the Fractal Weapons.Abyssal infusions chest is a rare drop. Fractal weapons maybe not (at least not written in wiki). I thought having a title for collecting all of the abyssal weapons could be a solution if they don't drop at random. There would be a reason to spend those essences.

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@Fangoth.4503 said:

@ollbirtan.2915 said:Can't wait for LI to become account bound too. That will put an end to the KP travesty.

won't change anything if you weren't able to raid when li/kp are involved you won't be able afterward.refusing to learn mech and try to be carried never made someone better

@Alita.8142 said:Kps should be shown in each avatar/portrait of party, next to AR.And in raids instead of mastery points should show the total kps/li or kills per wing (in the grid with a little number in a corner of each player will be sufficient).

This is for me the best solution, more fair and no need of keep kps in inventory since that it would be an historical + current account data, and goodbye ping/fake ping. It would be much easier to bring together people of the same level and in a much more clearer way.Yeah ideally would be nice to have a ingame boss kill count (not daily or weekly but total kill) but well look like dev try to make people go away from having kinda honogen group and go to a carry system to please people that still won't be able to do CM anyway as no one will accept to carry them for free

now will be pinging abyssal infusion but 200ecto each :D

WOW! Just maybe stop making assumptions like that yeah? How do you know I'm getting carried or advocate for it? Where did I say that?

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@Armen.1483 said:Unstable Fractal Essences are easier to come I guess, which makes it that the 250 kp will be 1250 so we can't even ping it... Infusions might do though I guess.. but it is kinda stupid to have infusions and not be able to equip them if we are multiclassu can use it and easy ping. If item a legendary all that you need swap biuld equip template(on some biuld where u not need infusions) and ping yours celestial red infusions.

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@Oldyoung.6109 said:

@Oldyoung.6109 said:KP was never a indicator of skill it was and always will be just a tool for people to be discriminatory.

It gives an estimate on someone’s potential skill with whatever awarded that particular KP.

and it could always be bought spoofed or carried for.

My god this excuse is tiresome. People can boost in any and all game modes. It becomes obvious on the first encounter if they are just one of the boosters and they are easily blocked and removed from the party. It takes about 10 seconds into a boss fight to understand how terrible a player may be.

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@TaurusZA.5493 said:It blows my mind that the KP were removed. Now it has become completely impossible to find a group unless you have this new title.at first they a NOT removed. They still exist. No one care is someone change them.And if someone change them, they way back it back very easy - buy red celestial infusions and ping them

This is the worst decision that Anet has ever made. KP were useful and something to collect and strive towards.decision very soft and not in jail mode. Nothing is change for most players.

I will never understand why they had to be removed!

they not removed.

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@Sir Alymer.3406 said:

@Oldyoung.6109 said:KP was never a indicator of skill it was and always will be just a tool for people to be discriminatory.

It gives an estimate on someone’s potential skill with whatever awarded that particular KP.

and it could always be bought spoofed or carried for.

My god this excuse is tiresome. People can boost in any and all game modes. It becomes obvious on the first encounter if they are just one of the boosters and they are easily blocked and removed from the party. It takes about 10 seconds into a boss fight to understand how terrible a player may be.

But thats diacriminating against that player like if those 2 or 4ppl are so good why would they get upset over lower performance or experiance on others so why is carrying seen so evil

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@Laila Lightness.8742 said:

@Oldyoung.6109 said:KP was never a indicator of skill it was and always will be just a tool for people to be discriminatory.

It gives an estimate on someone’s potential skill with whatever awarded that particular KP.

and it could always be bought spoofed or carried for.

My god this excuse is tiresome. People can boost in any and all game modes. It becomes obvious on the first encounter if they are just one of the boosters and they are easily blocked and removed from the party. It takes about 10 seconds into a boss fight to understand how terrible a player may be.

But thats diacriminating against that player like if those 2 or 4ppl are so good why would they get upset over lower performance or experiance on others so why is carrying seen so evil

why would someone want be carried instead of learning mechs?no kp group does exist and its possible to form some youself if you want to play the content. seing kp in lfg doesn't mean you have to create/join lfg with kp and as it seems all are claiming kp aint meaning anything why not trying to join group without kp?being carried is as interesting as taking an exam with the answer sheet. you pass but got nothing positive out of it

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@Laila Lightness.8742 said:

@Oldyoung.6109 said:KP was never a indicator of skill it was and always will be just a tool for people to be discriminatory.

It gives an estimate on someone’s potential skill with whatever awarded that particular KP.

and it could always be bought spoofed or carried for.

My god this excuse is tiresome. People can boost in any and all game modes. It becomes obvious on the first encounter if they are just one of the boosters and they are easily blocked and removed from the party. It takes about 10 seconds into a boss fight to understand how terrible a player may be.

But thats diacriminating against that player like if those 2 or 4ppl are so good why would they get upset over lower performance or experiance on others so why is carrying seen so evil

This just shows a severe lack of empathy to me.Nobody is saying it's "evil", but imagine you play the content every day at a high level, and every other day there is a new person with whom you have no connection with disregarding any call for experience or lying about their expertise, not performing their role, dying, wiping the group etc., who will then learn nothing to be carried again or never seen again, replaced by the next person to get carried.

You really can't see how that's unfair and irritating to those people who went out of their way to learn their role and the content, especially in the long term?

It's not that carrying a player here and there, especially someone you know, is a big deal. People do it all the time, critically, when they want to. But you can't just expect people to do it all the time, if they want to or not, if they have the time to or not, if they are in the mood for it or not.

For that case a system representing experience with the content is useful, and "discrimination based on qualification" is not a thing.

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@"Carcharoth Lucian.1378" said:Just for information, a dev talks about CM KP at 1h17m12s (so yes it was intentional)

And the only alternatives he lists is checking titles, which are freely sold on the ingame LFG even, and gear checking, which while being more intrusive says absolutely nothing about a players experience with the content at hand (and honorable mention to the massive skill gaps this game suffers from due to lack of tutorialisation/way too easy OW/Story content leaving people unprepared for challenging group content regardless of gear).In short, we are left with the same problem that lead to the emergence of KP's as matchmaking system, but without any useful alternative.

The only downsides of KP he lists is "discriminating" players based on their qualifications, which is completely sensible and will be done anyway (and he admits players likely finding more clunky/more intrusive ways to do it after the removal of KP anyway, but just wanting to give players a harder time with finding likeminded groups via LFG) and that they can be faked - which is a fairly non nonsensical argument since any qualification, RL or ingame can be faked/forged. That doesn't mean abolishing them altogether is at all a good idea. Plus as mentioned, his leading alternative suggestion being more easily faked/bought.

I also take issue with his false statement about people being required to have already played the content a hundred times to even get into it.Since when does a group posting an LFG with requirements lock out everybody who doesn't fullfill them from creating their own LFG, joining a training/guild/static, etc.?The people doing that want to play with other experienced players and have a smooth run, KP/LI existing or not.KP doesn't bar access to content, it just moderately effectively bars people from duping more experienced players into carrying them when they don't want to.Without such a KP system you just create more wasted time, kicks and toxicity through people with different skill levels and expectations clashing.

So while I get where he is coming from and agree with the design decision of a uniform CM currency (although there isn't really much to buy with it unless you are into pink weapons or infusions with.. let's just say a niche appeal), the way it was executed just shows quite a lack of understanding of the community, and also a disregard for the issue of why players gravitated to KP in the first place as a tool that was needed to make pugging bearable.

I just wish Anet would actually think these things, which often seem to be single dev impulses, through from time to time - be it the removal of proper Arc Templates or KP, and cease to make the game progressively worse over time, especially for their most dedicated players.The hardcore community is already declining rapidly enough due to lack of content, there is really no need to actively take valuable features and systems away from them on top of that.

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and not auto converting old kps just makes it harder for newcomers without changing anything for old player. now whether a person progress or not he cannot find a group that clear efficiently and so is doomed to have training everyday which unfortunately isn't viable unless being jobless or very lucky or i my position it's hoping for a new obtainable kp that replace the unobtainable one to finally be able to progress in fractal again. not the best way to go imo."-We have a problem with player creating 400kp group-oh I have an idea lets remove kp loot-oh yes and we don't remove kp from player so they still can create 400kp group-oh yes like that it annoy only those that don't have kp, perfect"What a smart move! Unless you're planning on long term and hope all people with kp quit the game hmmm...more seriously if if kp was really annoying them they would have destroy/force to convert the old kp so all are put bak to 0 and new player don't suffer the concequences of it! maybe they just don't want new player starting fractals :-1:if 250kill wasn't making a difference on a gameplay level people wouldn't bother asking for 400kp, it makes the run faster and more efficient one min saved isn't much on 1 boss but when you add up on CM+T4+recs its a lot of time that can be spent enjoying other content, so worth it.

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@Sir Alymer.3406 said:

@Oldyoung.6109 said:KP was never a indicator of skill it was and always will be just a tool for people to be discriminatory.

It gives an estimate on someone’s potential skill with whatever awarded that particular KP.

and it could always be bought spoofed or carried for.

My god this excuse is tiresome. People can boost in any and all game modes. It becomes obvious on the first encounter if they are just one of the boosters and they are easily blocked and removed from the party. It takes about 10 seconds into a boss fight to understand how terrible a player may be.

if it's so obvious why do you need kp?

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@Oldyoung.6109 said:

@Oldyoung.6109 said:KP was never a indicator of skill it was and always will be just a tool for people to be discriminatory.

It gives an estimate on someone’s potential skill with whatever awarded that particular KP.

and it could always be bought spoofed or carried for.

My god this excuse is tiresome. People can boost in any and all game modes. It becomes obvious on the first encounter if they are just one of the boosters and they are easily blocked and removed from the party. It takes about 10 seconds into a boss fight to understand how terrible a player may be.

if it's so obvious why do you need kp?

less time wasted kicking people and avoid food running during lfg. also keepin the black list short too i guess

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