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No "kp" for CM fractals. Is that gonna increase toxicity?

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  • Kameko.8314Kameko.8314 Member ✭✭✭

    I LOVE the no kp. If you have the title you should be fine. In old 100cm anything above 50kp was competent anyway. And if you have new 100cm title it is sufficient. Old cm 100 title was pretty meaningless easily carriable.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kameko.8314 said:
    I LOVE the no kp. If you have the title you should be fine. In old 100cm anything above 50kp was competent anyway. And if you have new 100cm title it is sufficient. Old cm 100 title was pretty meaningless easily carriable.

    LFG's are already full of Title sellers, just like with Raid CM titles, they won't stay relevant for judging player experience for long. Even if that weren't the case, eventually people extremely proficient with the content, having done it hundreds of times, will want a differentiation between people such as themselves and someone having done it possibly only once or twice, getting the title, anyway.

    KP wasn't perfect, but it was far better than anything else we had before or since.

    Even as a 1000 KP player myself, I generally looked for/made 100-250 KP groups, because I found that to be the sweetspot between incompetent and elitist (aka competent and relaxed) that I personally enjoyed.

    A group only gating with a title could mean it will consist out of someone who bought the title, someone who did it twice, someone moderately experienced , someone having done the CM a hundred times wanting a clean but chill run and someone who insists on no heal and speedrun strats and flames everyone for the tiniest mistake, which will obviously lead to problems in the group fairly quickly, making the process of finding the right group needlessly difficult.
    I don't see how that's a good thing when before each of those players could more accurately define their standards with for ex. Training, any KP, 50-100 KP, 100-250 KP and 800+ KP.

    Again, not a perfect system, but better than a title, and I doubt they will stay relevant for long when people come up with something else even clunkier like stacks of Abyssal Infusions or linking the Fractal Weapons.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Kameko.8314Kameko.8314 Member ✭✭✭

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Kameko.8314 said:
    I LOVE the no kp. If you have the title you should be fine. In old 100cm anything above 50kp was competent anyway. And if you have new 100cm title it is sufficient. Old cm 100 title was pretty meaningless easily carriable.

    LFG's are already full of Title sellers, just like with Raid CM titles, they won't stay relevant for judging player experience for long. Even if that weren't the case, eventually people extremely proficient with the content, having done it hundreds of times, will want a differentiation between people such as themselves and someone having done it possibly only once or twice, getting the title, anyway.

    KP wasn't perfect, but it was far better than anything else we had before or since.

    Even as a 1000 KP player myself, I generally looked for/made 100-250 KP groups, because I found that to be the sweetspot between incompetent and elitist (aka competent and relaxed) that I personally enjoyed.

    A group only gating with a title could mean it will consist out of someone who bought the title, someone who did it twice, someone moderately experienced , someone having done the CM a hundred times wanting a clean but chill run and someone who insists on no heal and speedrun strats and flames everyone for the tiniest mistake, which will obviously lead to problems in the group fairly quickly, making the process of finding the right group needlessly difficult.
    I don't see how that's a good thing when before each of those players could more accurately define their standards with for ex. Training, any KP, 50-100 KP, 100-250 KP and 800+ KP.

    Again, not a perfect system, but better than a title, and I doubt they will stay relevant for long when people come up with something else even clunkier like stacks of Abyssal Infusions or linking the Fractal Weapons.

    Yah, I pinged 7 infusions each time I go in group plus a stack and its like .. whats the point? You can tell when someone is bad, and if you are in an "experienced" advertised group then you should feel free to kick someone as I do in strikes from time to time because I asked for experience... and you're not it. I dunno, you have a point that it worked to an extent. But then I had the 250 li groups that couldn't even get passed second boss 100cm. Haha. Usually more essence = worse groups (this is ocx so I guess the player base... haha not so good). The thing is thos fractal feels like a strike boss sadly. CM mode? Straight to boss, you're in an arena, and yah.. so if your group is bad, then you know straight away which is good

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kameko.8314 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Kameko.8314 said:
    I LOVE the no kp. If you have the title you should be fine. In old 100cm anything above 50kp was competent anyway. And if you have new 100cm title it is sufficient. Old cm 100 title was pretty meaningless easily carriable.

    LFG's are already full of Title sellers, just like with Raid CM titles, they won't stay relevant for judging player experience for long. Even if that weren't the case, eventually people extremely proficient with the content, having done it hundreds of times, will want a differentiation between people such as themselves and someone having done it possibly only once or twice, getting the title, anyway.

    KP wasn't perfect, but it was far better than anything else we had before or since.

    Even as a 1000 KP player myself, I generally looked for/made 100-250 KP groups, because I found that to be the sweetspot between incompetent and elitist (aka competent and relaxed) that I personally enjoyed.

    A group only gating with a title could mean it will consist out of someone who bought the title, someone who did it twice, someone moderately experienced , someone having done the CM a hundred times wanting a clean but chill run and someone who insists on no heal and speedrun strats and flames everyone for the tiniest mistake, which will obviously lead to problems in the group fairly quickly, making the process of finding the right group needlessly difficult.
    I don't see how that's a good thing when before each of those players could more accurately define their standards with for ex. Training, any KP, 50-100 KP, 100-250 KP and 800+ KP.

    Again, not a perfect system, but better than a title, and I doubt they will stay relevant for long when people come up with something else even clunkier like stacks of Abyssal Infusions or linking the Fractal Weapons.

    Yah, I pinged 7 infusions each time I go in group plus a stack and its like .. whats the point? You can tell when someone is bad, and if you are in an "experienced" advertised group then you should feel free to kick someone as I do in strikes from time to time because I asked for experience... and you're not it. I dunno, you have a point that it worked to an extent. But then I had the 250 li groups that couldn't even get passed second boss 100cm. Haha. Usually more essence = worse groups (this is ocx so I guess the player base... haha not so good). The thing is thos fractal feels like a strike boss sadly. CM mode? Straight to boss, you're in an arena, and yah.. so if your group is bad, then you know straight away which is good

    All of that takes up time if you have to kick someone and find a suitable replacement.

  • Kameko.8314Kameko.8314 Member ✭✭✭

    All of that takes up time if you have to kick someone and find a suitable replacement.

    The thing is you the title then. If your title is bought... then replace the bad. Eventually people will have the full weapon set. Titles, ping infusions, there are kp replacements. Its just like anything that just comes out. The top talented probably already run statics. If you straight pug, what better to find than a title holder because they probably didn't buy it.

    As time goes on, more and more will know the fight and after that replacements won't be hard. It's like new raid wing? Same thing low kp anyway, the person with 10kp is just as good as the one with 0 at times. Depends. I think they want to kill the "show 250kp" whether it is good or bad of them to do.. we will see.

    Personally? I run with friends and groups. If you play an mmo solo . Good luck and you should know the ropes of getting in groups or finding groups. I don't think kp has helped me obtain any status in this game (2500+li / 1k+ fracs / runic armor / wvw armor). And there were few times I had to pug because of the guilds I'm in and it should force people if nothing else to look for friends to make connections. Maybe it will have people expand their networks and friends and not think of it as a trash pit looking for diamond players. Maybe that's their intent? Maybe not. But right now it's just so early, I'm glad they trying something new. Maybe it will shift the dynamic. And if not, they can go back to pingable kp.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kameko.8314 said:

    All of that takes up time if you have to kick someone and find a suitable replacement.

    The thing is you the title then. If your title is bought... then replace the bad. Eventually people will have the full weapon set. Titles, ping infusions, there are kp replacements. Its just like anything that just comes out. The top talented probably already run statics. If you straight pug, what better to find than a title holder because they probably didn't buy it.

    As time goes on, more and more will know the fight and after that replacements won't be hard. It's like new raid wing? Same thing low kp anyway, the person with 10kp is just as good as the one with 0 at times. Depends. I think they want to kill the "show 250kp" whether it is good or bad of them to do.. we will see.

    Personally? I run with friends and groups. If you play an mmo solo . Good luck and you should know the ropes of getting in groups or finding groups. I don't think kp has helped me obtain any status in this game (2500+li / 1k+ fracs / runic armor / wvw armor). And there were few times I had to pug because of the guilds I'm in and it should force people if nothing else to look for friends to make connections. Maybe it will have people expand their networks and friends and not think of it as a trash pit looking for diamond players. Maybe that's their intent? Maybe not. But right now it's just so early, I'm glad they trying something new. Maybe it will shift the dynamic. And if not, they can go back to pingable kp.

    Again. Cycling through inexperienced players to find a replacement takes up time.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kameko.8314

    Can't say I agree on the more KP = (mechanically) worse players. Ofc sometimes there are exceptions of otherwise experienced players just having a bad day or having been excessively carried, or even more rarely faking it, but in my experience that's less than 1 out of 20 runs. So it was a fairly decent system for player selection.

    As for the just kicking bad players argument, as @Ayrilana.1396 mentioned, that just takes a lot of time. Likely starting with the new CM now, that's one continuous ~12m minute fight. If two people die halfway through that fight causing a reset, that could have just been a fluke or messup which while annoying is imo fine - but even if you kick then that's 6 minutes + more time spent in LFG wasted. If you give them another shot and the same thing happens again forming a pattern of low skill, we are already at 12 minutes. At this stage you are then back to LFG at a time when you could already be done with that piece of content, and the same thing could happen again, getting another 2 players who just got the Title by doing it once scraping by with luck, having bought it or having been carried otherwise.

    That's why KP was vastly more reliable. A few clicks proving someone having done the content 50+ times is a fairly reliable way of expressing experience, if that is what you are looking for.
    Not perfect, but better than a once and done title.

    And ofc a static is the best way to play group content, but with the vast gaps in hardcore content delivery, those communities, including repeatedly mine, are falling apart one after the other with people quitting or moving on to other games due to getting almost nothing but Living World which isn't what we are here for/enough to keep many of us engaged.
    New statics that align with your own personality, mechanical expectations/playstyles and time availability don't grow on trees, leading many back into the wild west of pugging, which now lost a valuable tool for group finding.

    One idea I had a while ago with Anet introducing the coloured charity title was to give Fractal CM's and Raid Wings a repeatable Title giving Achievement, with the title changing colour at certain thresholds, going from the basic white text from one clear to Orange (Exotic) for 10 clears, Pink (Ascended) for 50 clears and Purple (Legendary) for 100 clears.
    Skipping Blue, Green and Yellow for HuD clarity purposes since those are colour code for Party Members, NPC's and Guild Members (although different Shades could be used), and keeping the max purposefully low as to not sheer endlessly inflate requirements.

    That way there would be an easy at a glance way to differentiate between people of varying experience levels without requiring any Bank/Inventory space, chat codes, 3rd party websites etc.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • SeikeNz.3526SeikeNz.3526 Member ✭✭✭✭

    anet is doing a great job, the next step is banning arcdps

  • It blows my mind that the KP were removed. Now it has become completely impossible to find a group unless you have this new title.

    This is the worst decision that Anet has ever made. KP were useful and something to collect and strive towards. I will never understand why they had to be removed! Why couldn't this new fractal simply reward some just like the old Shattered Observatory used to? I'm really disappointed and won't be playing fractals for a while since you already now can't find a pug easily. This will make me fall even further behind as more people get the title.

    This decision has trebled toxicity in the game and sucked the fun out of fractals. I was so excited about the new fractal, and I am deeply disappointed in this ridiculous decision.

  • Xca.9721Xca.9721 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 17, 2020

    @Henry.5713 said:
    The combination of Fractal God (plus Dances with Demons) will get you into almost any group just like before. We shall have to wait and see how this develops. The community will come up with some new ways of proving your experience soon, I am sure.

    Both of these titles don´t say anything about your skill level. You can get Fractal God just by doing T4 and Recs only and you can buy Dances with Demons from the LFG.

  • Fir.7932Fir.7932 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 17, 2020

    @Raizel.1839 said:
    It should decrese toxicity since everyone will have a chance to prove their value.

    This would work in a situation where every player, no matter the experience, has the same amount of value, but that is not the case and usually you can clearly see a difference between like 500kp guy and 100kp guy which will lead to just kicking people after first boss (no matter the reason, they can have the kp, just messed up their opening rotation) because they cannot compete with more experienced players, meaning they are not suites for no healer compositions etc.

  • Fir.7932Fir.7932 Member ✭✭✭

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    There's no toxicity in statics with friends. You should try creating your own groups ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    I do have a static, but I enjoy fractals with high ko groups, so I like to join them in lfg even with dailies done. Would not be the case if I didn't know the amount of ko the group has.

  • @Fir.7932 said:

    @Raizel.1839 said:
    It should decrese toxicity since everyone will have a chance to prove their value.

    This would work in a situation where every player, no matter the experience, has the same amount of value, but that is not the case and usually you can clearly see a difference between like 500kp guy and 100kp guy which will lead to just kicking people after first boss (no matter the reason, they can have the kp, just messed up their opening rotation) because they cannot compete with more experienced players, meaning they are not suites for no healer compositions etc.

    There is not really any difference between 50kp or infinite kp players.
    There are however difference between static player and pug player. They approach encounter with different strategy.
    People like you just pushes others with your high demand and elite mentality on pug.
    You want perfect run, stay in your static, otherwise be ready for spicy run which is fun for alot of us.

  • Fir.7932Fir.7932 Member ✭✭✭

    @Yellow Rainbow.6142 said:

    @Fir.7932 said:

    @Raizel.1839 said:
    It should decrese toxicity since everyone will have a chance to prove their value.

    This would work in a situation where every player, no matter the experience, has the same amount of value, but that is not the case and usually you can clearly see a difference between like 500kp guy and 100kp guy which will lead to just kicking people after first boss (no matter the reason, they can have the kp, just messed up their opening rotation) because they cannot compete with more experienced players, meaning they are not suites for no healer compositions etc.

    There is not really any difference between 50kp or infinite kp players.
    There are however difference between static player and pug player. They approach encounter with different strategy.
    People like you just pushes others with your high demand and elite mentality on pug.
    You want perfect run, stay in your static, otherwise be ready for spicy run which is fun for alot of us.

    Idk how much experience do you have, my friend, but I clear fractal CMs about 10+ times per week. I do my dailies with static (obviously sometimes we have to pug one person) and I join high kp groups for fun or help guildies with low kp.. If you're saying there's no difference between 50kp guy and infinite kp guy, I have to say you are horribly wrong. Most of the time the difference is as clear as day. If you are puging high kp groups there are some really good people in there and it's pretty rare to find someone who will have low DPS. If I join low kp group or help guild static with low kp as DPS, there's pretty much never a competition for me and I am one of the worst dmgers in my group, I mostly play supports.

  • Fir.7932Fir.7932 Member ✭✭✭

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:
    anet is doing a great job, the next step is banning arcdps

    I understand that you don't wanna play with
    people you call "elitists" and "elitists" don't wanna do clears with people they call "casuals" that's why we use things like "kp". I mean, casuals are just people who want things done and elitists are also just people who dont mind if things take longer as long as they improve their performance and their class mastery.. Forcing these 2 groups together could end up in toxicity and frustration because none of these groups will be capable of doing what they enjoy doing.

  • Fir.7932Fir.7932 Member ✭✭✭

    I will just steal a comment from @Cyninja.2954 that he posted under a voting pool of the same topic, because I feel like it describes the issue better than i could:

    With the old KP ping for fractals, there was a certain expectation to go along:

    1-50 KP was in general new players, hfb which might not do all the mechanics for one, likely no consumables, maybe not even a fractal title on players
    50-100 KP were more relaxed groups, still a hfb for carry but one who might actually know how to press buttons, consumables were given, etc.
    200 KP was right below "I have to focus up now" with maybe a hfb, but very likely a few fractal title players, everyone on full consumables and fractal potions
    300+ KP was in general: focus up, no hfb for carry so know how to dodge, cc and burst, probably portals on multiple people, etc. Get through both CMs in around 20 Minutes
    As someone with a good bit above 300 KP myself, I was free to chose which type of group I wanted to join depending on how I felt. If I wanted to semi afk 99+100CM, I'd sign up as DH or BS in a 100 KP group, or run HFB and carry all mechanics assuring a safe run.

    While KP were easily fake able, the person faking would often get the boot and seldom complain, unless the group was merciful and the player was okayish, I've seen a fair share of definitive KP fake players who were barely acceptable but not kicked since they at least did not fail sever mechanics. Now you most definitely will get faking players complain when kicked, and kicks will become far more frequent. Neither of which will benefit the atmosphere.

    The 2 main flaws of reasoning here:
    1. the KP ping addressed the issue of players wanting to play with similar skilled players, and while it had flaws, it managed to do so in a majority of cases. This was superior to asking for "exp", because experience and skill in this game are not binary
    2. some players on these boards always assume that gating happens immediately. That is not the case, gating happens to a majority of time due to necessity, especially when it is this wide spread. You never see gating for open world bosses because there is no need for it. Most players don't voluntary gate for kitten and giggles, because reducing the viable amount of players which can join means longer group finding, they do so because the gating actually REDUCES time to complete content and/or increases the chance of success DESPITE longer grouping times.

  • Kps should be shown in each avatar/portrait of party, next to AR.
    And in raids instead of mastery points should show the total kps/li or kills per wing (in the grid with a little number in a corner of each player will be sufficient).

    This is for me the best solution, more fair and no need of keep kps in inventory since that it would be an historical + current account data, and goodbye ping/fake ping. It would be much easier to bring together people of the same level and in a much more clearer way.

  • I'm not sure about toxicity, but it'd surely put me off from pugging. I'd rather wait half an hour for a friend or two to log on, to make sure we have at least 4 people or better yet a full party, before we start doing fractal. It makes the will of creating a static group stronger. It's not just me who think this way, all my friends think the same hence we always waiting on each other to start CM.

  • Fangoth.4503Fangoth.4503 Member ✭✭
    edited September 17, 2020

    @ollbirtan.2915 said:
    Can't wait for LI to become account bound too. That will put an end to the KP travesty.

    won't change anything if you weren't able to raid when li/kp are involved you won't be able afterward.
    refusing to learn mech and try to be carried never made someone better

    @Alita.8142 said:
    Kps should be shown in each avatar/portrait of party, next to AR.
    And in raids instead of mastery points should show the total kps/li or kills per wing (in the grid with a little number in a corner of each player will be sufficient).

    This is for me the best solution, more fair and no need of keep kps in inventory since that it would be an historical + current account data, and goodbye ping/fake ping. It would be much easier to bring together people of the same level and in a much more clearer way.

    Yeah ideally would be nice to have a ingame boss kill count (not daily or weekly but total kill) but well look like dev try to make people go away from having kinda honogen group and go to a carry system to please people that still won't be able to do CM anyway as no one will accept to carry them for free

    now will be pinging abyssal infusion but 200ecto each :D

  • SeikeNz.3526SeikeNz.3526 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fir.7932 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:
    anet is doing a great job, the next step is banning arcdps

    I understand that you don't wanna play with
    people you call "elitists" and "elitists" don't wanna do clears with people they call "casuals" that's why we use things like "kp". I mean, casuals are just people who want things done and elitists are also just people who dont mind if things take longer as long as they improve their performance and their class mastery.. Forcing these 2 groups together could end up in toxicity and frustration because none of these groups will be capable of doing what they enjoy doing.

    the so called elitists are the true casuals, why? because they need the perfect run, an easy run, they can't deal with a harder one because they can't kill, so they make KP partys to do it easy, so in the end they are the casual players.

  • The main problem of "wanna play with same-skilled people" is that you learn nothing from them. They learn nothing from you. One of my greatest step ups in my skill was to get better people joining our "some kp" groups. At least those who were eager to share tips and knowledge, instead of pinging 250+kp and suck more than people who never did the cm, then blaming the rest of the team. So many times we had high kp guys being completely useless, and so many times quite new people were good enough to have flawless run. And many times we had extraordinary runs when better people joined and we got some new tricks into our repertoir.

    KP is not all, the attitude is.

  • Yellow Rainbow.6142Yellow Rainbow.6142 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 17, 2020

    @Hanakocz.5697 said:
    The main problem of "wanna play with same-skilled people" is that you learn nothing from them. They learn nothing from you. One of my greatest step ups in my skill was to get better people joining our "some kp" groups. At least those who were eager to share tips and knowledge, instead of pinging 250+kp and suck more than people who never did the cm, then blaming the rest of the team. So many times we had high kp guys being completely useless, and so many times quite new people were good enough to have flawless run. And many times we had extraordinary runs when better people joined and we got some new tricks into our repertoir.

    KP is not all, the attitude is.

    1000 thumps up if I could. So true.
    Some of these people acting like they r super human (god) and rest are still going through evolution to become kitten sapiens is just amazing.
    It really tells me their limit, not other way around.
    Really, those 500 kp requirement should be against lfg rule. It doesn't help community at all.

  • From what i can gather on this thread it seems like the KP system was just a gate keeping mechanism the community spurted about. How is a new player suppose to earn kp if everyone is just looking for players with 100+ kp? A new player isnt going to sprout a guild or friends that can do content at the rate they can. If your pugging you should be expecting spicy kitten, if you don't want to deal with that you should have a static. If you been playing that long to have 100+ kp you should have found a static by now or there is another fundamental lvl of issues of guilds being hard to find.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @HiddenFlames.7258 said:
    From what i can gather on this thread it seems like the KP system was just a gate keeping mechanism the community spurted about. How is a new player suppose to earn kp if everyone is just looking for players with 100+ kp? A new player isnt going to sprout a guild or friends that can do content at the rate they can. If your pugging you should be expecting spicy kitten, if you don't want to deal with that you should have a static. If you been playing that long to have 100+ kp you should have found a static by now or there is another fundamental lvl of issues of guilds being hard to find.

    Less experienced players are more than welcome to create their own groups.

  • Blueberry.8095Blueberry.8095 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 17, 2020

    @HiddenFlames.7258 said:
    From what i can gather on this thread it seems like the KP system was just a gate keeping mechanism the community spurted about. How is a new player suppose to earn kp if everyone is just looking for players with 100+ kp? A new player isnt going to sprout a guild or friends that can do content at the rate they can. If your pugging you should be expecting spicy kitten, if you don't want to deal with that you should have a static. If you been playing that long to have 100+ kp you should have found a static by now or there is another fundamental lvl of issues of guilds being hard to find.

    Gate keeping not neccesary (for me). I mean when I have shorter time to play for that day, I simply need to complete daily faster. Taking inexperienced group will drag from half an hour to more than an hour, that's easily doubled the time required.

    Now if I do have extra time, I have more than enough inexperienced friends on my list that I can take with. Locking out to the inexperienced? Not really, since I'm actually training a new person - which I'm already doing it as of currently (person A), and I have another friend (person B ) on the queue next where his best agony was less than 100 but I donated some for B to get closer to the required AR, but I cannot take B now since I'm still training A.

    Why do I prefer to train friends more than the pug? Easy. From the recent experience (the person A I'm currently training), A had less than 10 ess when A 1st joined, we took A for couple for CMs (not everyday, just whenever we have extra time for longer session), A dies a lot at the beginning, but since we know A well, we can give suggestions and feedback as what A can adjust. Of course we can also give suggestion to pugs, but from my experienced, 99% of the time, the pug won't give any acknowledgement nor ask further question after suggestion was given (quit as soon as the run is finished and won't receive feedback - referring to inexperienced), or the pug would have proud of their poor performance and fight back with hostility (oh I have many stories of it). Taking a person from the guild or friend list, means that I can also track their progress, in the case of A, each time we do CM with A, the suggestion given is different, the question A ask is also different as A has grown more understanding of the mechanics gradually, since every run is different due to the instability/group performance/RNG mechanics/etc..., I can see where A made the mistake, and give feedback rightaway, and often A is very grateful of me doing so. After couple of weeks of occasion CMs, A can now survive longer and also perform better, still make mistakes from time to time, but I can see result in A and I'm proud of A.

    It's not that I want to gate keep, but training a friend would be more successful and to make sure that person will improve. Pug is usually just leave right after the run and you can see they simply here for the daily reward not so much for learning (of course there're few exceptionals but I hardly encourter any genuine learner so why bother?).

    Also, I'm very scared of pug, because most of the time I'm not sure if they're sensitive or easily offended. Speaking with a friendly tone doesn't matter, it's just that I don't deal well when a person is hostile. So training a friend who I'm sure that the friend doesn't have a toxic behaviour would be better for my mental health when I need to give suggestion.

  • Fir.7932Fir.7932 Member ✭✭✭

    @HiddenFlames.7258 said:
    From what i can gather on this thread it seems like the KP system was just a gate keeping mechanism the community spurted about. How is a new player suppose to earn kp if everyone is just looking for players with 100+ kp? A new player isnt going to sprout a guild or friends that can do content at the rate they can. If your pugging you should be expecting spicy kitten, if you don't want to deal with that you should have a static. If you been playing that long to have 100+ kp you should have found a static by now or there is another fundamental lvl of issues of guilds being hard to find.

    There are low, medium and high kp groups depending on the goal for the party. Lower kp requirement groups usually fill quicker, high kp requirement groups fill slow but the run is smoother.. Most of us started by puging from 0 kp me including.. Runs are hard, because people are bad, but finding a group is easy, also when you get like 20kp which is easy you can ask nicely any 50-150kp group and they will let you stay most of the time. Without kp, people would just decide you are bad after first run (that you maybe just messed up) and kick you. Imho it's better to make your experience level clear right in lfg and join the kind of group yiu sre looking for instead of getting kicked after first boss.

  • Fangoth.4503Fangoth.4503 Member ✭✭
    edited September 17, 2020

    @Hanakocz.5697 said:
    The main problem of "wanna play with same-skilled people" is that you learn nothing from them. They learn nothing from you. One of my greatest step ups in my skill was to get better people joining our "some kp" groups. At least those who were eager to share tips and knowledge, instead of pinging 250+kp and suck more than people who never did the cm, then blaming the rest of the team. So many times we had high kp guys being completely useless, and so many times quite new people were good enough to have flawless run. And many times we had extraordinary runs when better people joined and we got some new tricks into our repertoir.

    I agree that being carried isn't a good thing and you don't learn out of it. what better system do you propose? because so far removing make it worse to get a group roughly your level
    even if kp is not perfect i was able to steadily progress with quite homogen group when now i'm sometimes dpsraced by alac or have people that fail every basic mechs and if both case there is nothing good to get out of it

    KP is not all, the attitude is.
    @HiddenFlames.7258 said:
    From what i can gather on this thread it seems like the KP system was just a gate keeping mechanism the community spurted about. How is a new player suppose to earn kp if everyone is just looking for players with 100+ kp? A new player isnt going to sprout a guild or friends that can do content at the rate they can. If your pugging you should be expecting spicy kitten, if you don't want to deal with that you should have a static. If you been playing that long to have 100+ kp you should have found a static by now or there is another fundamental lvl of issues of guilds being hard to find.

    I started fractal last month and got 44kp mostly out of lfg (2kill were from mystlock training) so no problem learning in lfg. biggest issue is player that make one try fail and say its all kp fault instead of training again and improve their gameplay.

    Stop putting the fault on others. if people are unable to join training and learn mech it's not the due to the player that took the time to learn but their own! just stop being lazy and go learn like all did or just accept this content isn't for you ;)

  • ArchonWing.9480ArchonWing.9480 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 17, 2020

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    There's no toxicity in statics with friends. You should try creating your own groups ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    That would assume people have social skills in an MMO, and this topic would not exist. Alas... Also I suppose no matter how many ESSs you gathered up, it doesn't mean you know how to do Sunqua.

    I vendored my KP, so sadface for me though.

  • Laila Lightness.8742Laila Lightness.8742 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 18, 2020

    Now soon raid kp will be wiped and we can once more have anchivement point and title reqs. Kp wasnt a issue as you could made your own group all along

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 18, 2020

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:
    Now soon raid kp will be wiped and we can once more have anchivement point and title reqs. Kp wasnt a issue as you could made your own group all along

    You could, although without any means of prefiltering you might easily end up in a group incapable of killing the boss. The hard and uncomfortable truth is that raid bosses do require certain level of both skill and experience from the group members - a level that most players in this game did not reach. As long as that part remains true, requirements in LFGs will not disappear. And if raid KPs were to be removed, something else would replace them (possibly even more restrictive).
    So, if you don;t like restrictive requirements, the only sensible way to get rid of them (or make them irrelevant) is to nerf the difficulty level of the content itself.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Armen.1483Armen.1483 Member ✭✭✭

    @Asum.4960 said:

    Again, not a perfect system, but better than a title, and I doubt they will stay relevant for long when people come up with something else even clunkier like stacks of Abyssal Infusions or linking the Fractal Weapons.

    Abyssal infusions chest is a rare drop. Fractal weapons maybe not (at least not written in wiki). I thought having a title for collecting all of the abyssal weapons could be a solution if they don't drop at random. There would be a reason to spend those essences.

  • ollbirtan.2915ollbirtan.2915 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fangoth.4503 said:

    @ollbirtan.2915 said:
    Can't wait for LI to become account bound too. That will put an end to the KP travesty.

    won't change anything if you weren't able to raid when li/kp are involved you won't be able afterward.
    refusing to learn mech and try to be carried never made someone better

    @Alita.8142 said:
    Kps should be shown in each avatar/portrait of party, next to AR.
    And in raids instead of mastery points should show the total kps/li or kills per wing (in the grid with a little number in a corner of each player will be sufficient).

    This is for me the best solution, more fair and no need of keep kps in inventory since that it would be an historical + current account data, and goodbye ping/fake ping. It would be much easier to bring together people of the same level and in a much more clearer way.

    Yeah ideally would be nice to have a ingame boss kill count (not daily or weekly but total kill) but well look like dev try to make people go away from having kinda honogen group and go to a carry system to please people that still won't be able to do CM anyway as no one will accept to carry them for free

    now will be pinging abyssal infusion but 200ecto each :D

    WOW! Just maybe stop making assumptions like that yeah? How do you know I'm getting carried or advocate for it? Where did I say that?

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ParadoX.3124 said:
    Title is the new kp

    what title? LHB ? obsolete, DwD - easy done whit preo players and sell able for everyone. So about that title we talk ?

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Armen.1483 said:
    Unstable Fractal Essences are easier to come I guess, which makes it that the 250 kp will be 1250 so we can't even ping it... Infusions might do though I guess.. but it is kinda stupid to have infusions and not be able to equip them if we are multiclass

    u can use it and easy ping. If item a legendary all that you need swap biuld equip template(on some biuld where u not need infusions) and ping yours celestial red infusions.

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    It’s seems Anet wants to remove the KP as they find it discriminatory as stated in the livestream today.

  • @Oldyoung.6109 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Oldyoung.6109 said:
    KP was never a indicator of skill it was and always will be just a tool for people to be discriminatory.

    It gives an estimate on someone’s potential skill with whatever awarded that particular KP.

    and it could always be bought spoofed or carried for.

    My god this excuse is tiresome. People can boost in any and all game modes. It becomes obvious on the first encounter if they are just one of the boosters and they are easily blocked and removed from the party. It takes about 10 seconds into a boss fight to understand how terrible a player may be.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 18, 2020

    @TaurusZA.5493 said:
    It blows my mind that the KP were removed. Now it has become completely impossible to find a group unless you have this new title.

    at first they a NOT removed. They still exist. No one care is someone change them.
    And if someone change them, they way back it back very easy - buy red celestial infusions and ping them

    This is the worst decision that Anet has ever made. KP were useful and something to collect and strive towards.

    decision very soft and not in jail mode. Nothing is change for most players.

    I will never understand why they had to be removed!

    they not removed.

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • Laila Lightness.8742Laila Lightness.8742 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 18, 2020

    @Sir Alymer.3406 said:

    @Oldyoung.6109 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Oldyoung.6109 said:
    KP was never a indicator of skill it was and always will be just a tool for people to be discriminatory.

    It gives an estimate on someone’s potential skill with whatever awarded that particular KP.

    and it could always be bought spoofed or carried for.

    My god this excuse is tiresome. People can boost in any and all game modes. It becomes obvious on the first encounter if they are just one of the boosters and they are easily blocked and removed from the party. It takes about 10 seconds into a boss fight to understand how terrible a player may be.

    But thats diacriminating against that player like if those 2 or 4ppl are so good why would they get upset over lower performance or experiance on others so why is carrying seen so evil

  • Fangoth.4503Fangoth.4503 Member ✭✭
    edited September 18, 2020

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:

    @Sir Alymer.3406 said:

    @Oldyoung.6109 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Oldyoung.6109 said:
    KP was never a indicator of skill it was and always will be just a tool for people to be discriminatory.

    It gives an estimate on someone’s potential skill with whatever awarded that particular KP.

    and it could always be bought spoofed or carried for.

    My god this excuse is tiresome. People can boost in any and all game modes. It becomes obvious on the first encounter if they are just one of the boosters and they are easily blocked and removed from the party. It takes about 10 seconds into a boss fight to understand how terrible a player may be.

    But thats diacriminating against that player like if those 2 or 4ppl are so good why would they get upset over lower performance or experiance on others so why is carrying seen so evil

    why would someone want be carried instead of learning mechs?
    no kp group does exist and its possible to form some youself if you want to play the content. seing kp in lfg doesn't mean you have to create/join lfg with kp and as it seems all are claiming kp aint meaning anything why not trying to join group without kp?
    being carried is as interesting as taking an exam with the answer sheet. you pass but got nothing positive out of it

  • Carcharoth Lucian.1378Carcharoth Lucian.1378 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 18, 2020

    Just for information, a dev talks about CM KP at 1h17m12s (so yes it was intentional)

  • Fangoth.4503Fangoth.4503 Member ✭✭
    edited September 19, 2020

    and not auto converting old kps just makes it harder for newcomers without changing anything for old player. now whether a person progress or not he cannot find a group that clear efficiently and so is doomed to have training everyday which unfortunately isn't viable unless being jobless or very lucky or i my position it's hoping for a new obtainable kp that replace the unobtainable one to finally be able to progress in fractal again. not the best way to go imo.
    "-We have a problem with player creating 400kp group
    -oh I have an idea lets remove kp loot
    -oh yes and we don't remove kp from player so they still can create 400kp group
    -oh yes like that it annoy only those that don't have kp, perfect"
    What a smart move! Unless you're planning on long term and hope all people with kp quit the game hmmm...
    more seriously if if kp was really annoying them they would have destroy/force to convert the old kp so all are put bak to 0 and new player don't suffer the concequences of it! maybe they just don't want new player starting fractals :-1:
    if 250kill wasn't making a difference on a gameplay level people wouldn't bother asking for 400kp, it makes the run faster and more efficient one min saved isn't much on 1 boss but when you add up on CM+T4+recs its a lot of time that can be spent enjoying other content, so worth it.

  • @Sir Alymer.3406 said:

    @Oldyoung.6109 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Oldyoung.6109 said:
    KP was never a indicator of skill it was and always will be just a tool for people to be discriminatory.

    It gives an estimate on someone’s potential skill with whatever awarded that particular KP.

    and it could always be bought spoofed or carried for.

    My god this excuse is tiresome. People can boost in any and all game modes. It becomes obvious on the first encounter if they are just one of the boosters and they are easily blocked and removed from the party. It takes about 10 seconds into a boss fight to understand how terrible a player may be.

    if it's so obvious why do you need kp?

    None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license.
    ~John Milton

  • Laila Lightness.8742Laila Lightness.8742 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 19, 2020

    Another suggestion add in a counter shown how many times this user finished. There is 2 groups of toxic i seen the toxic casuals wich might lead to toxic elitists as the toxic casual group dont want to learn but want rewards the elitist group got tierd and just want to do the content efficiently both groups are bad in long run. The one lead to other wich caused kp to be a thing