Kill Proof idea - Let us ping from the Wallet

[sigur.9453]

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@sigur.9453 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:I'm pretty sure asking for "kill proof" is a kind of discrimination and ANet do not support discriminations. Whether players use "kill proof" on a regular basis since years or not, probably don't change the position of the devveloppers on that point.

Thus they probably won't satisfy the OP's plea.

Its not discrimination. Its not Inclusive at best.Please dont Overuse words like harresment, discimination, etc. because they already lost enough meaning and Thats hurting the „real fight“

I'm sorry but whether you like it or not it's a factor of discrimination.

Discrimination is also prejudice against people and a refusal to give them their rights.

cambridge dictionnary

Being able to choose who I want to play with based on a (not perfect) variable (kp,etc) has nothing to do with discrimination.IF I would not want to play with you because you are a women, gay, Australian,.... would be, but that’s not for debate. And putting it on, even just verbally the same status like the others is borderline insulting to people facing „real discrimination“.

The right of each player in the game is to be able to play whatever they want through the whole content (after all they've paid for it). Asking for "kill proof" or "meta builds" in order to allow someone into a group/raid go against those rights and thus is a form of discrimination.

Understand that if you let slide discrimination in a game because it's convenient, nothing will prevent from doing the same in real life. Harrasment in game exist and I garanty you that it's not an overused word, it probably is even be underused. And discrimination from players to players are everywhere. You're already willing to let it slide by understating it, what's next? Will you deny a job irl to a potentially very qualified person because he got tatoos and say that "it's not discrimination, at best it's just non inclusive"? You sure will have your mind free of guilt because it doesn't "hurt the real fight".

I understand that you want define what those words mean by yourself, but i would prefer to base it on the Dictionary meaning, WITHOUT interpreting it in you own way aswell.

Otherwise a discussion without a common ground is useless. Sry

You making the assumption that me, who „does not allow everyone in my party“ is also likely be part in one of your scenarios, is ironically, prejudice itself.

It's a mistake to think that focusing on a single kind of discrimination you'll fix it. To fix discriminations you have to make people have the habit to not discriminate against anything. You have to make people be open minded in any situation and in front of anyone. Asking for kill proof here just make you suspicious of the player's capacities, your approach of the player isn't openminded, it's narrow minded and, well, exclusive. You are judging the player at what it can show you, in short, it's look.

I agree on the first part, but as said above. I’d rather focus on the real world problems, than „these 9 people do not want to play with me“, which again, does not have anything to to with discrimination.

It’s look? Is this a desperate attempt To make it look like discrimination?I „judge“ on proof of experience. By your definition every cv would be a judge on look. Again, I stick with the deictonary definition.

For all those reasons, It's not to ANet's ethic benefits to help players show "kill proofs". The only result that it can lead to is some players being shuned for lack of "proofs". Which often lead to a post in this forum asking if it's really ok to have been kicked out of a group, refused based on profession played... etc.

For the rest pretty much what @maddoctor.2738 already said.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@sigur.9453 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:I'm pretty sure asking for "kill proof" is a kind of discrimination and ANet do not support discriminations. Whether players use "kill proof" on a regular basis since years or not, probably don't change the position of the devveloppers on that point.

Thus they probably won't satisfy the OP's plea.

Its not discrimination. Its not Inclusive at best.Please dont Overuse words like harresment, discimination, etc. because they already lost enough meaning and Thats hurting the „real fight“

I'm sorry but whether you like it or not it's a factor of discrimination.

Discrimination is also prejudice against people and a refusal to give them their rights.

cambridge dictionnary

The right of each player in the game is to be able to play whatever they want through the whole content (after all they've paid for it). Asking for "kill proof" or "meta builds" in order to allow someone into a group/raid go against those rights and thus is a form of discrimination.

Understand that if you let slide discrimination in a game because it's convenient, nothing will prevent from doing the same in real life. Harrasment in game exist and I garanty you that it's not an overused word, it probably is even be underused. And discrimination from players to players are everywhere. You're already willing to let it slide by understating it, what's next? Will you deny a job irl to a potentially very qualified person because he got tatoos and say that "it's not discrimination, at best it's just non inclusive"? You sure will have your mind free of guilt because it doesn't "hurt the real fight".

It's a mistake to think that focusing on a single kind of discrimination you'll fix it. To fix discriminations you have to make people have the habit to not discriminate against anything. You have to make people be open minded in any situation and in front of anyone. Asking for kill proof here just make you suspicious of the player's capacities, your approach of the player isn't openminded, it's narrow minded and, well, exclusive. You are judging the player at what it can show you, in short, it's look.

For all those reasons, It's not to ANet's ethic benefits to help players show "kill proofs". The only result that it can lead to is some players being shuned for lack of "proofs". Which often lead to a post in this forum asking if it's really ok to have been kicked out of a group, refused based on profession played... etc.

You might want to do some basic reading on rights and liberty. You are quite literally arguing tyranny, while stumbling around trying to define individual rights.

You have every right to play the game how every you want. You have that right all the way up until you are actively preventing another player of playing the game how they want, least you want to rule over him or control him, aka tyranny. Your liberty is not of any more value than any other players, as long as neither is in breach of contract or the games terms.

As such, having players actively making use of their freedom to chose whom they want to play with is within every single players rights, as long as they do not infringe on another ones right to play with whomever they want. Liberty or freedom of choice is NOT synonymous with I get to chose what everyone else has to do. It means: I get to chose what every I want to do, and so does every one else. You would do well to understand the difference.

[Tyson.5160]

@sigur.9453 said:

@"Dadnir.5038" said:I'm pretty sure asking for "kill proof" is a kind of discrimination and ANet do not support discriminations. Whether players use "kill proof" on a regular basis since years or not, probably don't change the position of the devveloppers on that point.

Thus they probably won't satisfy the OP's plea.

Its not discrimination. Its not Inclusive at best.Please dont Overuse words like harresment, discimination, etc. because they already lost enough meaning and Thats hurting the „real fight“

Yes, but even Anet is calling it discriminatory, their words not mine.

[sigur.9453]

@Tyson.5160 said:

@sigur.9453 said:

@"Dadnir.5038" said:I'm pretty sure asking for "kill proof" is a kind of discrimination and ANet do not support discriminations. Whether players use "kill proof" on a regular basis since years or not, probably don't change the position of the devveloppers on that point.

Thus they probably won't satisfy the OP's plea.

Its not discrimination. Its not Inclusive at best.Please dont Overuse words like harresment, discimination, etc. because they already lost enough meaning and Thats hurting the „real fight“

Yes, but even Anet is calling it discriminatory, their words not mine.

Yet the dictionary disagrees.

Did they make a statement, or was that an individual on a livestream? Source?

[Asum.4960]

@Tyson.5160 said:

@sigur.9453 said:

@"Dadnir.5038" said:I'm pretty sure asking for "kill proof" is a kind of discrimination and ANet do not support discriminations. Whether players use "kill proof" on a regular basis since years or not, probably don't change the position of the devveloppers on that point.

Thus they probably won't satisfy the OP's plea.

Its not discrimination. Its not Inclusive at best.Please dont Overuse words like harresment, discimination, etc. because they already lost enough meaning and Thats hurting the „real fight“

Yes, but even Anet is calling it discriminatory, their words not mine.

Anet also call non-saveable character Loadouts a Build Template system. They ain't so good with terms.

As someone stated above and my thoughts exactly, KP is like a proof of qualification, nothing more, nothing less.We use those everywhere in life, from medical to law degrees in high stakes situations and to all the way down to things that affect us much less drastically but much more frequently, and if those are discriminatory now then I absolutely would not want to live in a world without discrimination.Discrimination based on competency and qualification, oh boy.

Sure, some people might be somewhat qualified without having the proof of qualification, but even though I'm sure most people think they are the special one, that's generally not the case, otherwise things like KP wouldn't have been invented in the first place - to solve a problem that wouldn't have existed.Aka, people feeling entitled to other people's time and joining groups/content they are absolutely not qualified for while hiding that fact/refusing to communicate, rather than putting the work in like everybody else they are trying to waste the time of (and then getting toxic when called out for it).

The amount of entitlement to other people's time/resources while not willing to give or put in anything themselves in this community is really unsightly.I wonder what happened to turn people at large into this "give me stuff, carry me, do things my way, serve me - or I call on the manager/scream harassment" dark parody of real struggles and discrimination.

And just to be clear, I've never been a fan of things like KP and other "gatekeeping" and always encouraged people to go for trainings and statics etc., but due to the amount players as described above lying about or hiding their lack of skill and experience joining groups, it or a system like it is sadly fairly necessary for the pugging experience.

[Laila Lightness.8742]

But anet wants to remove this behavior tho

[Tyson.5160]

@sigur.9453 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@sigur.9453 said:

@"Dadnir.5038" said:I'm pretty sure asking for "kill proof" is a kind of discrimination and ANet do not support discriminations. Whether players use "kill proof" on a regular basis since years or not, probably don't change the position of the devveloppers on that point.

Thus they probably won't satisfy the OP's plea.

Its not discrimination. Its not Inclusive at best.Please dont Overuse words like harresment, discimination, etc. because they already lost enough meaning and Thats hurting the „real fight“

Yes, but even Anet is calling it discriminatory, their words not mine.

Yet the dictionary disagrees.

Did they make a statement, or was that an individual on a livestream? Source?

Cameron Rich, the Fractal and Raids guy, on the livestream made that statement near the end of the stream.

1:27:27 mark

[Laila Lightness.8742]

@Tyson.5160 said:

@sigur.9453 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@sigur.9453 said:

@"Dadnir.5038" said:I'm pretty sure asking for "kill proof" is a kind of discrimination and ANet do not support discriminations. Whether players use "kill proof" on a regular basis since years or not, probably don't change the position of the devveloppers on that point.

Thus they probably won't satisfy the OP's plea.

Its not discrimination. Its not Inclusive at best.Please dont Overuse words like harresment, discimination, etc. because they already lost enough meaning and Thats hurting the „real fight“

Yes, but even Anet is calling it discriminatory, their words not mine.

Yet the dictionary disagrees.

Did they make a statement, or was that an individual on a livestream? Source?

Cameron Rich, the Fractal and Raids guy, on the livestream made that statement near the end of the stream.

1:27:27 mark

I hope they fix li and guild stuff the same way

[sigur.9453]

@Tyson.5160 said:

@sigur.9453 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@sigur.9453 said:

@"Dadnir.5038" said:I'm pretty sure asking for "kill proof" is a kind of discrimination and ANet do not support discriminations. Whether players use "kill proof" on a regular basis since years or not, probably don't change the position of the devveloppers on that point.

Thus they probably won't satisfy the OP's plea.

Its not discrimination. Its not Inclusive at best.Please dont Overuse words like harresment, discimination, etc. because they already lost enough meaning and Thats hurting the „real fight“

Yes, but even Anet is calling it discriminatory, their words not mine.

Yet the dictionary disagrees.

Did they make a statement, or was that an individual on a livestream? Source?

Cameron Rich, the Fractal and Raids guy, on the livestream made that statement near the end of the stream.

1:27:27 mark

Ty for the mark :)

"kind of discriminate...."Vague statement as I suspected.

He also talks about ppl should still be able to make sure they get the right experienced level of fellow party members."there are better ways then kps" - > "titles, going through gear (?)"

[Ayrilana.1396]

They can remove pinging items as much as they want but it won't really have a large impact.

[ArchonWing.9480]

Sorry, folks, you don't have any rights to join anyone's party. You don't own the game; you own the right to play the game as allowed by the game creators.

What a world where people think not being able to play a video game with people that don't want to play with them is the same as exclusionary policies that have deprived people of the ability to live their lives (or sometimes live at all) for centuries. To use it to further your own interest shows disrespect towards those that have suffered, so why don't think about someone other than poor you for half a second?

[Asum.4960]

@sigur.9453 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@sigur.9453 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@sigur.9453 said:

@"Dadnir.5038" said:I'm pretty sure asking for "kill proof" is a kind of discrimination and ANet do not support discriminations. Whether players use "kill proof" on a regular basis since years or not, probably don't change the position of the devveloppers on that point.

Thus they probably won't satisfy the OP's plea.

Its not discrimination. Its not Inclusive at best.Please dont Overuse words like harresment, discimination, etc. because they already lost enough meaning and Thats hurting the „real fight“

Yes, but even Anet is calling it discriminatory, their words not mine.

Yet the dictionary disagrees.

Did they make a statement, or was that an individual on a livestream? Source?

Cameron Rich, the Fractal and Raids guy, on the livestream made that statement near the end of the stream.

1:27:27 mark

Ty for the mark :)

"kind of discriminate...."Vague statement as I suspected.

He also talks about ppl should still be able to make sure they get the right experienced level of fellow party members."there are better ways then kps" - > "titles, going through gear (?)"

Exactly, as I stated here his alternatives are much more easily faked/bought in the case of titles or say nothing at all about someones experience with the content in the case of demanding gear pings.

Seems well thought out indeed.

[TheNecrosanct.4028]

@lare.5129 said:

@"TheNecrosanct.4028" said:Spending currency and matrices on accountbound items (multiples even) you don't want?yes, spend part account bound currency and small amount matrix for that.

That's your idea of KP?not my, but sometimes people link it, and I and others accept it.

There's a new weapon set I'd much rather complete.new wep set complete per short time. It not some magic big value.

Any other brilliant ideas for gatekeeping?personal I use

https://killproof.me/proof/75VK

So let's do a little calculation here. You suggested 20 Red Celestial Infusions would be enough to get you into a CM group. That's 9,000 UFE, equal to 1,800 UCE (more than 7 stacks of the old KP; that's more than 3 times the amount of max KP I've seen in LFG, which is 500). And that's not even counting the 600 Integrated Fractal Matrices, which is equal to 12,000 Stabilizing Matrices with a value of about 3,600 Gold. Do you even see how ridiculous this is? Not even in the old situation did CM groups require anything near this much as proof. This is only viable for people who've done Fractal CM's literally for years, every single day, and I'm sure even they would find it ridiculous. I'm sure many experienced Fractal players don't even have the required UFE to pay for this. So yes, this is far from a viable or even reasonable option.

I'd be fine linking LI/LD. But first of all those have no bearing at all on Fractals (not everyone who does Raids also does Fractals, or the other way around). Plus there's the fact I've seen literally zero Fractals LFG's asking for LI/LD. So the people who've exchanged their UCE (because you literally can't get anything from it anymore, nor can you get any more UCE) and don't have a static, are screwed now. Or maybe I'm just a minority and all of this falls on deaf ears and people are fine with the situation.

[TheNecrosanct.4028]

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:

I hope they fix li and guild stuff the same way

Except they didn't fix anything. Exchanging your UCE for UFE is a choice. It is still being used as KP in LFG's, because people can choose not to exchange them for the new currency. It would only have been a fix if they force exchanged it on all accounts, instead of leaving it to the people themselves. He called it a devisive decision, which is probably the reason they didn't go for the forced exchange. But really, that is what they should do. At least then everybody is on equal footing and UCE can't be used as KP in LFG's anymore. Right now, nothing has changed, except that it creates a division between CM players before Sunqua Peak and CM players after Sunqua Peak/CM players who did exchange their UCE.

[Cyninja.2954]

@TheNecrosanct.4028 said:

@lare.5129 said:

@TheNecrosanct.4028 said:Spending currency and matrices on accountbound items (multiples even) you don't want?yes, spend part account bound currency and small amount matrix for that.

That's your idea of KP?not my, but sometimes people link it, and I and others accept it.

There's a new weapon set I'd much rather complete.new wep set complete per short time. It not some magic big value.

Any other brilliant ideas for gatekeeping?personal I use

https://killproof.me/proof/75VK

So let's do a little calculation here. You suggested 20 Red Celestial Infusions would be enough to get you into a CM group. That's 9,000 UFE, equal to 1,800 UCE (more than 7 stacks of the old KP; that's more than 3 times the amount of max KP I've seen in LFG, which is 500). And that's not even counting the 600 , which is equal to 12,000 Stabilizing Matrices with a value of about 3,600 Gold. Do you even see how ridiculous this is? Not even in the old situation did CM groups require anything near this much as proof. This is only viable for people who've done Fractal CM's literally for years, every single day, and I'm sure even they would find it ridiculous. I'm sure many experienced Fractal players don't even have the required UFE to pay for this. So yes, this is far from a viable or even reasonable option.

I'd be fine linking LI/LD. But first of all those have no bearing at all on Fractals (not everyone who does Raids also does Fractals, or the other way around). Plus there's the fact I've seen literally zero Fractals LFG's asking for LI/LD. So the people who've exchanged their UCE (because you literally can't get anything from it anymore, nor can you get any more UCE) and don't have a static, are screwed now. Or maybe I'm just a minority and all of this falls on deaf ears and people are fine with the situation.

The acquisition rate of UFE to UCE is 12 times higher. Under the current system, you can acquire 120 UFE per day, which is equal to 24 UCE. Before the patch, the average UCE per day was 2.

As such, 1,800 UFE is pretty much en par with 1,800/5/12 = 180 days worth of old KP, so in essence 360 KP, but also unrelated to a specific fractal since now all 3 CMs grant this currency. It's nearly the same content clear wise, except for the cost of Integrated Fractal Matrices. So from a pure time investment, it's not as ridiculous as you make it out to be.

I doubt Red Celestial Infusions, which have greatly depreciated in rarity given they went from over 30 days to 4 days to acquire, will be used as KP. Time will tell what players will come up with, but one thing is pretty clear: if pre sorting is necessary, it will take place in one form or another. This can be as bad as say the NA raiding scene, which has completely moved to private discords, away from the LFG, or as simply as finding some KP replacement. The only thing which won't happen: players of different skill playing together more and this being a fun experience for all sides involved.

[Carnifex.3275]

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@sigur.9453 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@sigur.9453 said:

@"Dadnir.5038" said:I'm pretty sure asking for "kill proof" is a kind of discrimination and ANet do not support discriminations. Whether players use "kill proof" on a regular basis since years or not, probably don't change the position of the devveloppers on that point.

Thus they probably won't satisfy the OP's plea.

Its not discrimination. Its not Inclusive at best.Please dont Overuse words like harresment, discimination, etc. because they already lost enough meaning and Thats hurting the „real fight“

Yes, but even Anet is calling it discriminatory, their words not mine.

Yet the dictionary disagrees.

Did they make a statement, or was that an individual on a livestream? Source?

Cameron Rich, the Fractal and Raids guy, on the livestream made that statement near the end of the stream.

1:27:27 mark

I hope they fix li and guild stuff the same way

But what he did (Cameron) is even worse then it was before. Now new players won't be able to get any KP. And old players will still have their KP. What in the world were they thinking? Basically CM content is now locked for new players. U won't be able to ping anything if you're new. I don't get it.. what did they try to achieve with that? If it was unhealthy now it's way worse. Now not only am i skipping raid content but i lost my hopes for CMs too. Stuck in T4s forever.... gg.

[TheNecrosanct.4028]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@TheNecrosanct.4028 said:

@lare.5129 said:

@TheNecrosanct.4028 said:Spending currency and matrices on accountbound items (multiples even) you don't want?yes, spend part account bound currency and small amount matrix for that.

That's your idea of KP?not my, but sometimes people link it, and I and others accept it.

There's a new weapon set I'd much rather complete.new wep set complete per short time. It not some magic big value.

Any other brilliant ideas for gatekeeping?personal I use

https://killproof.me/proof/75VK

So let's do a little calculation here. You suggested 20 Red Celestial Infusions would be enough to get you into a CM group. That's 9,000 UFE, equal to 1,800 UCE (more than 7 stacks of the old KP; that's more than 3 times the amount of max KP I've seen in LFG, which is 500). And that's not even counting the 600 , which is equal to 12,000 Stabilizing Matrices with a value of about 3,600 Gold. Do you even see how ridiculous this is? Not even in the old situation did CM groups require anything near this much as proof. This is only viable for people who've done Fractal CM's literally for years, every single day, and I'm sure even they would find it ridiculous. I'm sure many experienced Fractal players don't even have the required UFE to pay for this. So yes, this is far from a viable or even reasonable option.

I'd be fine linking LI/LD. But first of all those have no bearing at all on Fractals (not everyone who does Raids also does Fractals, or the other way around). Plus there's the fact I've seen literally zero Fractals LFG's asking for LI/LD. So the people who've exchanged their UCE (because you literally can't get anything from it anymore, nor can you get any more UCE) and don't have a static, are screwed now. Or maybe I'm just a minority and all of this falls on deaf ears and people are fine with the situation.

The acquisition rate of UFE to UCE is 12 times higher. Under the current system, you can acquire 120 UFE per day, which is equal to 24 UCE. Before the patch, the average UCE per day was 2.

As such, 1,800 UFE is pretty much en par with 1,800/5/12 = 180 days worth of old KP, so in essence 360 KP, but also unrelated to a specific fractal since now all 3 CMs grant this currency. It's nearly the same content clear wise, except for the cost of Integrated Fractal Matrices. So from a pure time investment, it's not as ridiculous as you make it out to be.

I doubt Red Celestial Infusions, which have greatly depreciated in rarity given they went from over 30 days to 4 days to acquire, will be used as KP. Time will tell what players will come up with, but one thing is pretty clear: if pre sorting is necessary, it will take place in one form or another. This can be as bad as say the NA raiding scene, which has completely moved to private discords, away from the LFG, or as simply as finding some KP replacement. The only thing which won't happen: players of different skill playing together more and this being a fun experience for all sides involved.

While that maybe true, if you've exchanged UCE for UFE (like I did) you're basically screwed now without a static. I'm left to make my own LFG without KP, because all the CM groups are still asking for a few 100 KP so I can't get into those anymore. And I'm not one of those people posting LFG's asking for KP while I have none myself. But it's like Dave said: the current situation is worse than before. And if they keep it this way, new Fractal players will forever be separated from the old ones, because the new ones can't show UCE for the simple reason it's impossible to get them anymore. This will make Fractals more troublesome for players like me, who before could get into CM groups but now can't, all because I chose to exchange an old currency that is no longer obtainable. ANet have made questionable decisions before, but this is one of the weirdest they've made so far.

To be clear, I'm fine with asking for KP in principle. It's what we do in Raids, it's what I did before with Fractals and it's also what I do for Strikes. ANet should either have kept UCE, or they should have force exchanged it on all acounts so no one has any anymore and everyone is on even footing in that regard. The community will always find new KP to ask for. I've seen plenty of different KP requirements in the 8 years I've been playing this game. But this new situation creates 2 different divisions that won't ever be able to mix as long as the community won't switch to a form of KP that everyone can show, regardless of when you started playing Fractals. The storage problem could have simply been solved by allowing UCE into the material storage. But this KP problem Cameron is talking about in the video is far from solved and only made worse now.

[Cyninja.2954]

@TheNecrosanct.4028 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@TheNecrosanct.4028 said:

@lare.5129 said:

@TheNecrosanct.4028 said:Spending currency and matrices on accountbound items (multiples even) you don't want?yes, spend part account bound currency and small amount matrix for that.

That's your idea of KP?not my, but sometimes people link it, and I and others accept it.

There's a new weapon set I'd much rather complete.new wep set complete per short time. It not some magic big value.

Any other brilliant ideas for gatekeeping?personal I use

https://killproof.me/proof/75VK

So let's do a little calculation here. You suggested 20 Red Celestial Infusions would be enough to get you into a CM group. That's 9,000 UFE, equal to 1,800 UCE (more than 7 stacks of the old KP; that's more than 3 times the amount of max KP I've seen in LFG, which is 500). And that's not even counting the 600 , which is equal to 12,000 Stabilizing Matrices with a value of about 3,600 Gold. Do you even see how ridiculous this is? Not even in the old situation did CM groups require anything near this much as proof. This is only viable for people who've done Fractal CM's literally for years, every single day, and I'm sure even they would find it ridiculous. I'm sure many experienced Fractal players don't even have the required UFE to pay for this. So yes, this is far from a viable or even reasonable option.

I'd be fine linking LI/LD. But first of all those have no bearing at all on Fractals (not everyone who does Raids also does Fractals, or the other way around). Plus there's the fact I've seen literally zero Fractals LFG's asking for LI/LD. So the people who've exchanged their UCE (because you literally can't get anything from it anymore, nor can you get any more UCE) and don't have a static, are screwed now. Or maybe I'm just a minority and all of this falls on deaf ears and people are fine with the situation.

The acquisition rate of UFE to UCE is 12 times higher. Under the current system, you can acquire 120 UFE per day, which is equal to 24 UCE. Before the patch, the average UCE per day was 2.

As such, 1,800 UFE is pretty much en par with 1,800/5/12 = 180 days worth of old KP, so in essence 360 KP, but also unrelated to a specific fractal since now all 3 CMs grant this currency. It's nearly the same content clear wise, except for the cost of Integrated Fractal Matrices. So from a pure time investment, it's not as ridiculous as you make it out to be.

I doubt Red Celestial Infusions, which have greatly depreciated in rarity given they went from over 30 days to 4 days to acquire, will be used as KP. Time will tell what players will come up with, but one thing is pretty clear: if pre sorting is necessary, it will take place in one form or another. This can be as bad as say the NA raiding scene, which has completely moved to private discords, away from the LFG, or as simply as finding some KP replacement. The only thing which won't happen: players of different skill playing together more and this being a fun experience for all sides involved.

While that maybe true, if you've exchanged UCE for UFE (like I did) you're basically screwed now without a static. I'm left to make my own LFG without KP, because all the CM groups are still asking for a few 100 KP so I can't get into those anymore. And I'm not one of those people posting LFG's asking for KP while I have none myself. But it's like Dave said: the current situation is worse than before. And if they keep it this way, new Fractal players will forever be separated from the old ones, because the new ones can't show UCE for the simple reason it's impossible to get them anymore. This will make Fractals more troublesome for players like me, who before could get into CM groups but now can't, all because I chose to exchange an old currency that is no longer obtainable. ANet have made questionable decisions before, but this is one of the weirdest they've made so far.

To be clear, I'm fine with asking for KP in principle. It's what we do in Raids, it's what I did before with Fractals and it's also what I do for Strikes. ANet should either have kept UCE, or they should have force exchanged it on all acounts so no one has any anymore and everyone is on even footing in that regard. The community will always find new KP to ask for. I've seen plenty of different KP requirements in the 8 years I've been playing this game. But this new situation creates 2 different divisions that won't ever be able to mix as long as the community won't switch to a form of KP that everyone can show, regardless of when you started playing Fractals. The storage problem could have simply been solved by allowing UCE into the material storage. But this KP problem Cameron is talking about in the video is far from solved and only made worse now.

Oh I am fully with you that this situation did not develop as it should have and everyone is worse off atm (even players who held on to the old KP. No one benefits when they have a harder time grouping). Now granted, I did not expect a new type of KP given how strikes have no KP, but I also did not expect the complete devaluation of the old KP.

I pretty much expect the developers to force convert the old KP at some point (expect as in I think they will do it, not that it should be done). In an ideal world, we'd see updates to the LFG system and ways to make parties with more control to communicate to other players what is needed/desired ideally making KP and similar player made solution obsolete.

The best to do right now is just sit it out and make friends, interact with guildies, etc. For everyone not in such a situation, I hope that something will develop to make this issue less severe down the road.

[lare.5129]

@"TheNecrosanct.4028" said:So let's do a little calculation here. You suggested 20 Red Celestial Infusions would be enough to get you into a CM group. That's 9,000 UFE, equal to 1,800 UCE (more than 7 stacks of the old KP; that's more than 3 times the amount of max KP I've seen in LFG, which is 500).I don't know how and where you calculate, but I am not pro hardcore player, and have more 8400 UFE by new claculiationproof = https://killproof.me/proof/75VKI m not suggest, I say that see that people use it, and personaly I accept it. Suggest and accept difference hope u know.

And that's not even counting the 600 Integrated Fractal Matrices, which is equal to 12,000 Stabilizing Matrices with a value of about 3,600 Gold.only 600 Integrated Fractal Matrices? this is not big value

Do you even see how ridiculous this is? Not even in the old situation did CM groups require anything near this much as proof. This is only viable for people who've done Fractal CM's literally for years, every single day, and I'm sure even they would find it ridiculous. I'm sure many experienced Fractal players don't even have the required UFE to pay for this. So yes, this is far from a viable or even reasonable option.

So the people who've exchanged their UCE (because you literally can't get anything from it anymore, nor can you get any more UCE) and don't have a static, are screwed now.yes, it smell fail. At first they lose 125 GOLD from each stack. lol

[lare.5129]

@TheNecrosanct.4028 said:It would only have been a fix if they force exchanged it on all accounts, instead of leaving it to the people themselves. He called it a devisive decision, which is probably the reason they didn't go for the forced exchange. But really, that is what they should do.125 gold from each stack you pay for each who get forced ? no ?

[TheNecrosanct.4028]

@lare.5129 said:

@TheNecrosanct.4028 said:

And that's not even counting the 600 Integrated Fractal Matrices, which is equal to 12,000 Stabilizing Matrices with a value of about 3,600 Gold.only 600 Integrated Fractal Matrices? this is not big value

3,600 gold is not a big value to you? Congratulations then, on belonging to the 1% of GW2 players with thousands of gold lying around. For me, however, it would mean spending the majority of my gold just to be able to get into Fractals CM groups. Anyone who thinks that is a valid idea is out of their mind. Besides, literally no LFG I've come across even asks for infusions as KP, probably because they know the idea alone is ludicrous.

[lare.5129]

@TheNecrosanct.4028 said:Besides, literally no LFG I've come across even asks for infusions as KP, probably because they know the idea alone is ludicrous.again, I write absolutely another mind. I am write - this is not some magic if people link some celestial red infusions.Some link more than 20, some people link another count.A don't say - do it! I say - if I see that I accept it.This is legal for example if someone for unknown reason change uce to ufe and now get some sad without kp.but for mainstream nothing change - uce is uce.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@"YtseJam.9784" said:There's a lot of issues with "kill proofs", like having to save all the raid tokens, and the now defunct ESS on fractals (although I deposit all my KP on my guild hall and I kept 100 ESS). A quick fix for this would be to let us ping from the wallet and then let us deposit the raid kps in the wallet as well.

Titles are not 100% trustworthy, people can buy those. You need some kind of proof that you can beat them frequently :)

Whatever the KP is, IT MUST BE SOMETHING THAT CANNOT BE FAKE CHAT CODE GENERATED. That's my only beef with it.

Personally though, I think KPs become toxic at a certain point. For example, most players experienced the largest growth in knowledge & skill between 1 ESS and 20 ESS. Comparing the skill of a 20 ESS player to a 50 ESS player is so marginally low that it really didn't matter. And comparing the skill of a 50 ESS player to a 100 ESS player is even marginally lower than 20 vs 50. So what I'm trying to say is that guys asking for 250 KP pings as if it mattered vs. guys with 100 or even 20, is kind of ridiculous. I mean sure, you can complete the fractal a little bit faster with a 200+ group, but is that worth the level of segregation and sheer wait times that comes with such an elite imminence front? I don't think it is. Considering how marginally small the difference in skill is between a player with 200 vs. say 20. Honestly in some cases, the guy with 20 ESS is plainly naturally a better player anyway. The only difference is that he hasn't grinded out 200 ESS. So yeah, KPs can be toxic and plainly create false representation, especially with chat code generation ^^

I think that a good solid KP should come more in the form of a single achievement title or something like LNHB that is very difficult to achieve, but once it is achieved it sets a standard of play level for that person, and no amount of face grind playing can make anyone look any better than anyone else with that title. The only issue here is providing an achievable title that isn't something that would be easy to buy or be carried into from other players.

I dunno, I'd need to think about a better & more solid suggestion.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@"YtseJam.9784" said:There's a lot of issues with "kill proofs", like having to save all the raid tokens, and the now defunct ESS on fractals (although I deposit all my KP on my guild hall and I kept 100 ESS). A quick fix for this would be to let us ping from the wallet and then let us deposit the raid kps in the wallet as well.

Titles are not 100% trustworthy, people can buy those. You need some kind of proof that you can beat them frequently :)

Whatever the KP is, IT MUST BE SOMETHING THAT CANNOT BE FAKE CHAT CODE GENERATED. That's my only beef with it.

Personally though, I think KPs become toxic at a certain point. For example, most players experienced the largest growth in knowledge & skill between 1 ESS and 20 ESS. Comparing the skill of a 20 ESS player to a 50 ESS player is so marginally low that it really didn't matter. And comparing the skill of a 50 ESS player to a 100 ESS player is even marginally lower than 20 vs 50. So what I'm trying to say is that guys asking for 250 KP pings as if it mattered vs. guys with 100 or even 20, is kind of ridiculous. I mean sure, you can complete the fractal a little bit faster with a 200+ group, but is that worth the level of segregation and sheer wait times that comes with such an elite imminence front? I don't think it is. Considering how marginally small the difference in skill is between a player with 200 vs. say 20. Honestly in some cases, the guy with 20 ESS is plainly naturally a better player anyway. The only difference is that he hasn't grinded out 200 ESS. So yeah, KPs can be toxic and plainly create false representation, especially with chat code generation ^^

I think that a good solid KP should come more in the form of a single achievement title or something like LNHB that is very difficult to achieve, but once it is achieved it sets a standard of play level for that person, and no amount of face grind playing can make anyone look any better than anyone else with that title. The only issue here is providing an achievable title that isn't something that would be easy to buy or be carried into from other players.

I dunno, I'd need to think about a better & more solid suggestion.

I have to disagree to some extent.

Your claim about the most significant increase happening between 1 ESS and 20 ESS is only true because after, a vast majority of players are content with their performance and STOP improving. Why should they, they have the content down to an extent which is sufficient to them? Yet there is a huge possibility for improvement even after that, theoretically all the way up to the point of what speedruners bring for records (if we assume this to be the absolute top skill end in mastering an encounter).

The issue here is: you can improve far beyond the average performance of 20 ESS groups. Think of it this way: a vast majority of players do not bring SC performance or benchmarks, yet many (likely far more then the SC benchmark able ones) are successfully raiding.

The biggest jump might be between 1 ESS and 20 ESS by mere fact that a player has around 10 times the experience by the time they hit 20+ ESS in clearing the content. The second biggest gap in skill comes from playing without a heal firebrand in CMs (and not as suggested between 20 ESS and 50 ESS or 100 ESS). The only reason your claim is true is because a LOT of players never WANT to improve that far. That does not mean though that they are in any capacity able to perform in a say 300+ KP group, which were very often non heal fb. As such, players who have honed their ability beyond a crutch of bringing a healer need to look for other players who are as skilled, because playing with or without a healer makes a rather big difference by now.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@"YtseJam.9784" said:There's a lot of issues with "kill proofs", like having to save all the raid tokens, and the now defunct ESS on fractals (although I deposit all my KP on my guild hall and I kept 100 ESS). A quick fix for this would be to let us ping from the wallet and then let us deposit the raid kps in the wallet as well.

Titles are not 100% trustworthy, people can buy those. You need some kind of proof that you can beat them frequently :)

Whatever the KP is, IT MUST BE SOMETHING THAT CANNOT BE FAKE CHAT CODE GENERATED. That's my only beef with it.

Personally though, I think KPs become toxic at a certain point. For example, most players experienced the largest growth in knowledge & skill between 1 ESS and 20 ESS. Comparing the skill of a 20 ESS player to a 50 ESS player is so marginally low that it really didn't matter. And comparing the skill of a 50 ESS player to a 100 ESS player is even marginally lower than 20 vs 50. So what I'm trying to say is that guys asking for 250 KP pings as if it mattered vs. guys with 100 or even 20, is kind of ridiculous. I mean sure, you can complete the fractal a little bit faster with a 200+ group, but is that worth the level of segregation and sheer wait times that comes with such an elite imminence front? I don't think it is. Considering how marginally small the difference in skill is between a player with 200 vs. say 20. Honestly in some cases, the guy with 20 ESS is plainly naturally a better player anyway. The only difference is that he hasn't grinded out 200 ESS. So yeah, KPs can be toxic and plainly create false representation, especially with chat code generation ^^

I think that a good solid KP should come more in the form of a single achievement title or something like LNHB that is very difficult to achieve, but once it is achieved it sets a standard of play level for that person, and no amount of face grind playing can make anyone look any better than anyone else with that title. The only issue here is providing an achievable title that isn't something that would be easy to buy or be carried into from other players.

I dunno, I'd need to think about a better & more solid suggestion.

I have to disagree to some extent.

Your claim about the most significant increase happening between 1 ESS and 20 ESS is only true because after, a vast majority of players are content with their performance and STOP improving. Why should they, they have the content down to an extent which is sufficient to them? Yet there is a huge possibility for improvement even after that, theoretically all the way up to the point of what speedruners bring for records (if we assume this to be the absolute top skill end in mastering an encounter).

The issue here is: you can improve far beyond the average performance of 20 ESS groups. Think of it this way: a vast majority of players do not bring SC performance or benchmarks, yet many (likely far more then the SC benchmark able ones) are successfully raiding.

The biggest jump might be between 1 ESS and 20 ESS by mere fact that a player has around 10 times the experience by the time they hit 20+ ESS in clearing the content. The second biggest gap in skill comes from playing without a heal firebrand in CMs (and not as suggested between 20 ESS and 50 ESS or 100 ESS). The only reason your claim is true is because a LOT of players never WANT to improve that far. That does not mean though that they are in any capacity able to perform in a say 300+ KP group, which were very often non heal fb. As such, players who have honed their ability beyond a crutch of bringing a healer need to look for other players who are as skilled, because playing with or without a healer makes a rather big difference by now.

Yes but you're assuming that the 20 ESS player (could not) perform in a group with no healbrand.

For all you know he's some kind of a savant that if invited or allowed into your group, would increase your clear times significantly. But no one will ever know because he's being judged on KPs.

I guess that's the ultimate point to make here. Just because a player has played enough to grind some inordinate amount of KPs, does not automatically make him "good" or amongst the most efficient players out there.