Some Critic about Anet's directions

[Leo G.4501]

Anet has been keeping an eye on the things players want for a while and look where its gotten them...

In a saturated market, they should have had a clear vision of what they wanted to make their game to be (and how it'd be different from others) before pushing the product to market. Pandering to the next bandwagon, money-making, trendy, new and popular craze always peeters out eventually and then you're left in a cycle of appeasing an ever shifting audience wanting different things or risk losing them.

Well, at least you got mounts out of it (the best mounts of any game, IMO). Unpopular opinion, but I think they need to stop listening to disgruntled fans and just make the game they want to make.

[Astralporing.1957]

@"Thornwolf.9721" said:I dont think anyone is saying that, many are just saying "No one, should go without content."In a perfect world, with enough resources to satisfy the fans of any content, that is definitely true. Unfortunately, we do not live in that kind of world, and developer resources are limited. Too limited to support all of already existing content types, apparently.

Devs tried at some point to satisfy everyone, only to realize eventually that by doing this they would not be able to satisfy anyone. Basically, they overreached, due to not having a clear vision of whom this game should be for (or by not trying to limit that vision by the amount of available resources). And the consequences of that can be felt to this day.

[Halbarz.3854]

I think some people think that the WvW community is asking for a whole revamp :P all we are asking for is a piece of the pie ... a very small piece even.

[Atomos.7593]

I agree that the PvP and WvW can be fun to do sometimes. GW2 was my favourite MMORPG to play these modes in, but I no longer enjoy it much even in GW2. I think the whole MMORPG genre doesn't really fit well with PvP because things like balance issues are persistent and impactful. I mostly find my PvP fix in other types of games these days because I find them more fun. MMORPGs are mostly a PvE thing for me now. I guess Anet will focus on the areas of the game that attract the most revenue and players because it is in their business interest to do so.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Yggranya.5201 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:Well, most other MMORPGs are still running on old-fashion shared loot system, so no, players do not receive the same rewards there. Not that it helps any - loot division is frequently a source of tension in itself, and is one of the main things that ends up killing raid parties in most MMORPGs.

Really? Give me some examples then. Name some game, for starters....uh. The GW2 system where each player receives their own, separate drops (instead of drops being group-based that need to be divided between players, which is the norm) is a relatively new approach - offhand the only one MMORPG with character-based drop system besides GW2 i can remember is ESO.

[Zephire.8049]

@Yggranya.5201 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Yggranya.5201 said:

@Funky.4861 said:SPvP, Raids and WvW combined are probably 15% - 20% of the total game population. The reasons for this are many, but off the top of my head is that GW2 is advertised as a casual-friendly, hop-in and out, play how you want kind of game. If you want to be useful or have any sense of progression/contribution in those modes, it's anything BUT casual/play how you want. Perhaps it's also human nature that co-operation is a better reward than the ego-stroking endorphin rush of ruining another player's game experience.

Too bad co-operation tuns into the same idiocy in every MMO. As in: You do all the work, we all get the same rewards, even though all most of us did was show up at the appointed time. And we all know what that leads to.Well, most other MMORPGs are still running on old-fashion shared loot system, so no, players do not receive the same rewards there. Not that it helps any - loot division is frequently a source of tension in itself, and is one of the main things that ends up killing raid parties in most MMORPGs.

Really? Give me some examples then. Name some game, for starters.

• World of Warcraft
• Black Desert Online
• Final Fantasy 14
• Lord of the Rings Online
• The Secret World
• Star Wars the Old Republic (this one may have changed last year but I'm not digging through a patch notes article on it)

• Elder Scrolls Online has shared mob loot but server-side loot chests on the map that players fight over.

And that about covers all the larger MMOs these days AFAIK, so yes, GW2 is the only one aside from ESO that gives everyone an equal chance at loot and the only one where people don't compete for map-based loot.

[Yggranya.5201]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Yggranya.5201 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:Well, most other MMORPGs are still running on old-fashion shared loot system, so no, players do not receive the same rewards there. Not that it helps any - loot division is frequently a source of tension in itself, and is one of the main things that ends up killing raid parties in most MMORPGs.

Really? Give me some examples then. Name some game, for starters....uh. The GW2 system where each player receives their own, separate drops (instead of drops being group-based that need to be divided between players, which is the norm) is a relatively new approach - offhand the only one MMORPG with character-based drop system besides GW2 i can remember is ESO.

Yes, and that is one of the reasons raids are what they are. When you need to battle RNG and other people fot the next gear treadmill equipment, eventually people are going to take their frustration out on each other. I say "eventually", but really, that is the first thing most people do. At least GW2 avoided that.

Or at least so claim the people who raid in those kind of games, as i'm sure you know. I wonder why they also advocate for more "difficulty" and forced grouping? Seems... well, seems strange. Not to mention all the screaming and whining about "casual". All you can do: shrug

[Thornwolf.9721]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Thornwolf.9721" said:I dont think anyone is saying that, many are just saying "No one, should go without content."In a perfect world, with enough resources to satisfy the fans of any content, that is definitely true. Unfortunately, we do not live in that kind of world, and developer resources

are

limited. Too limited to support all of already existing content types, apparently.

Devs tried at some point to satisfy everyone, only to realize eventually that by doing this they would not be able to satisfy anyone. Basically, they overreached, due to not having a clear vision of whom this game should be for (or by not trying to limit that vision by the amount of available resources). And the consequences of that can be felt to this day.

Thats their mess to sort out, personally I know I and likely many of my guild would not buy the games next expansion solely on PvE content. (Unless the specs really grabbed us, which PoF didn't.) Unless there was something big, really big.... which I Doubt there will be. I think WvW can afford some love given it really doesn't have that small of a player base; Not as big as open world PvE but likely larger than the other modes by a wide margin.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Yggranya.5201 said:

@"Astralporing.1957" said:...uh. The GW2 system where each player receives their own, separate drops (instead of drops being group-based that need to be divided between players, which is the norm) is a relatively new approach - offhand the only one MMORPG with character-based drop system besides GW2 i can remember is ESO.

Yes, and that is one of the reasons raids are what they are. When you need to battle RNG and other people fot the next gear treadmill equipment, eventually people are going to take their frustration out on each other. I say "eventually", but really, that is the first thing most people do. At least GW2 avoided that.I did mention that the classic method of loot sharing does lead to its own problems, didn't i? I personally prefer GW2 approach here as well.

My original response was only to your earlier comment:

@Yggranya.5201 said:Too bad co-operation tuns into the same idiocy in every MMO. As in: You do all the work, we all get the same rewards, even though all most of us did was show up at the appointed time. And we all know what that leads to.(I bolded the relevant part of that quote)

And i responded to this, because, as i have already said, that is completely not true. Not in "every MMO", not even in most of them.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Thornwolf.9721 said:Thats their mess to sort outTrue. It's just that the only solution that would satisfy everyone (them suddenly and magically getting enough resources to be able to support all the types of content they have to player satisfaction) is not going to happen. So, you can bet that the one they will eventually go with is going to disappoint some players.

Notice, by the way, that they are doing something about it - abandoning further raid development and moving to a less resource-intensive (and a bit more accessible for wider audience) strike system was such a step.

[Thornwolf.9721]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:Thats their mess to sort outTrue. It's just that the only solution that would satisfy everyone (them suddenly and magically getting enough resources to be able to support all the types of content they have to player satisfaction) is not going to happen. So, you can bet that the one they will eventually go with

is

going to disappoint some players.

Notice, by the way, that they

are

doing something about it - abandoning further raid development and moving to a less resource-intensive (and a bit more accessible for wider audience) strike system was such a step.

Fair, but you ignored my other point. WvW should NOT be going contentless with how many play it. If anything Open world/WvW should be getting roughly equal content cadence as both have the most thriving player-bases in the community. PvP likely would still have that if it hadn't been nuked from orbit when they failed at E-sports; And if what you say is true remove the modes and cull the fat. Put those rewards/enemies and stories elsewhere so those assets and such dont go to waste? Because raids as are, waste space and honestly are dying. Move those encounters over to strikes then? Dumb them down? I dont know. I dont feel like A-nets answer is nessacarily the correct one; Abandoning content is not good. And stringing players along who like that content and hold out hope for it is wrong~

They just need to come out and be honest, say openly that X content is no longer supported and let those players go. If you dont care enough create content for that section of the playerbase, then the least you can do is say you're putting their content out to pasture and let them go right along with it. Then double down on what you wana make and do; IF that means they removed EVERYTHING but open world then I guess thats the direction they wana go? Which means those of us who don't like it can move on and let the game go, and they can deal with whatever is left-over.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Thornwolf.9721 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:Thats their mess to sort outTrue. It's just that the only solution that would satisfy everyone (them suddenly and magically getting enough resources to be able to support all the types of content they have to player satisfaction) is not going to happen. So, you can bet that the one they will eventually go with

is

going to disappoint some players.

Notice, by the way, that they

are

doing something about it - abandoning further raid development and moving to a less resource-intensive (and a bit more accessible for wider audience) strike system was such a step.

Fair, but you ignored my other point. WvW should NOT be going contentless with how many play it. If anything Open world/WvW should be getting roughly equal content cadence as both have the most thriving player-bases in the community.Perhaps your assumption about the size of WvW community is not true. Just saying.

PvP likely would still have that if it hadn't been nuked from orbit when they failed at E-sports; And if what you say is true remove the modes and cull the fat. Put those rewards/enemies and stories elsewhere so those assets and such dont go to waste? Because raids as are, waste space and honestly are dying. Move those encounters over to strikes then? Dumb them down? I dont know. I dont feel like A-nets answer is nessacarily the correct one; Abandoning content is not good. And stringing players along who like that content and hold out hope for it is wrong~You're right, of course. It's far better to have a clear, realistic vision about whom the game is supposed to be for,

and communicate that vision equally clearly

. It's just Anet has never been good at communication, and even worse at admitting mistakes.

I mean, raids are an extremely good example of making a ton of mistakes one after another.First they introduced raids in a game that at this point was mostly casual, and made it a type of content casual players should never bother visiting. They put in there a lot of stuff that was greatly desirable to many players that weree not really interested in raids, or, worse, were a very bad match for that type of content. At the same time they were sending a number of confusing messages about the content (remember where they, at the same time, were saying that the content is meant only for players in full ascended, while immediately comment that they fully expect players to eventually be doing them naked. That the content is meant for the best of the best only, but they intend it to be the end of the road for practically everyone). All that meant everyone were entering raids with completely different expectations.

Then, they made another major mistake. They almost certainly knew immediately how much resources were they willing to dedicate for raids. That amount of resources was not enough to match the fresh expectations of newly created raid community. So, instead of tempering those expectations from the get go, they kept promising more and more, increasing the hype. At the same time, they also kept selling the image of raids as the most important content to the rest of the player community. Again, it didn't exactly match what they were really doing (resources dedicated for LS/open world were always much bigger than those for raids, for example), but messages sent and dev outward attitude are very important for MMORPGs.So, they kept angering casual players with a perceived shift of the design mode towards more hardcore ones. They also kept offering those hardcore players the heavens. In the end however, they never delivered those heavens - and with passing time it became more clear that they never had the means to do so. At the same time, they didn't want to admit to that openly - even when they eventually did that, they did that relatively quietly, and in a way that is still not too conclusive. By doing that, they left both groups of players unsatisfied (and often angry).

They just need to come out and be honest, say openly that X content is no longer supported and let those players go.Except they don't want to let any players go. They'd rather prefer players keep hoping for some bright future that will never get realized for them, and stick to the game for that little bit longer (and maybe keep buying stuff in the meantime). In this, they never considered the players' point of view - only theirs.

[White Kitsunee.4620]

Anet should really delete PvP instead of giving us false hope that they are going to put any time or care into at all.

[Avatar.3568]

@White Kitsunee.4620 said:Anet should really delete PvP instead of giving us false hope that they are going to put any time or care into at all.

No its still one of the best pvp games ever existed