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Balance: Thief vs Ranger


Eventine.8024

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@Eventine.8024 said:Simple question: I want to play thief rifle in WvW, but when I battle with any other class, ranger for example, this happens:Ranger has more mobilityRanger has more stealthRanger has more healingRanger has more burst and damage over timeLongbow vs rifle (or short bot): rapid fire kills everything, while rifle and short bow do insignificant damage. Rapid fire keep hitting even if i'm in stealthRanger has invulnerable, ranger has pet, ranger has amazing down skill.Ranger has stabilityThief has boon strip.How this is balanced? Why Dev has this amazing game and still manage to ruin it every patch? Where is WvW alliance system?I play gw2 since betaweekend 1, and it's already 2 years I lost faith in you.

Eventine

ranger doesnt have more mobility, it depends where u are at. yes in 1 straight line forward he will most likely be faster then u but he cant dps in that time while u shouldnt have a hard time catching up.

ranger has more stealth? how? a blast and longbow 3? and maybe if u play druid? or use trapper runes? basically not tru.

ranger has more healing meh not sure i doubt that.

ranger has more burst, ye kind of but easier to dodge. as for dmg over time as in condi? think thief is better at it ;).

in general a good deadeye will eat a ranger. so rifle > longbow?

yes ranger has invul 3s? and another 3 if u take tank pet and if ur a moron u have trait also. <- this is uncommon very uncommon. as for downskill what is the amazing one?the pet res? ur a thief interupt it and the skill turns out to be useless or u mean the other downskill that does 1 lighting strike kind of thing that interupts?ur down skill as thief > u port when they stomp > u stealth when they wanna stomp again > u might get res in meanwhile. think in case of ranger vs thief i rather have thief down state skills.

thief has stability also not as much as ranger but dont need it.

think balance between thief ranger is fine. im playing thief mainly and from time to time ranger the balance problem between these 2 classes isnt the above atleastalso im fairly sure ur mixing up a shit ton of different ranger builds vs your one thief build.well in that case i can make list for every class :D

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You asked for it ...Comments in bold

@"UNOwen.7132" said:

A dodge takes up some time. If it misses theyre in an animation, which is valuable seconds. A dodge will move the enemy towards the ranger quickly who will be slowly crawling backwards as he has to face the target to use lb skills. Missing LB 3 or 4 is always a huge detriment for the ranger. And healing skull muddy terrain. In your previous post you talk about players not being able to get close enough to interrupt the ranger (from like up to 1,2k range) but the ranger can hit them with melee immob somehow? Makes perfectly sense ... not. I believe thats a common pick, no? Not on Boonbeast maybe. And mounts are why its realistic, you can just get out of combat and mount up, and youre gone. Mounts are the reason why everyone can get close to a ranger and mounting up to get away isn't possible with players keeping the ranger in combat - which thief can do 100% of the time and other classes sometimes too. Not even thief can do much to you at that point. And thief will not be able to escape if he tries to chase down a Ranger. Sure, he can avoid one or two skills, but hes dead without a lifeline, and he cant chase without cutting his lifeline. What's that "lifeline" even supposed to be and how can it be in danger when all a thief has to do is interrupt the ranger before he goes anywhere or use sb5 a few times? Shiro Rev really cant, theyll barely be able to match the first dash, let alone the second. Shiro rev can port 3k range within 5s. Ranger can leap 2,4k in the same timeframe. The time between second leap from the ranger and second port from the rev is not enough to get ooc. Especially if the ranger runs after they swapped to glint. Nobody goes anywhere with stuff on cd, this applies to the ranger as much as other classes. Except thief ... As for Mirage, simple. They only have 1 port that is instant and takes you far, 2 ports for total of 2,2k distance and their leaps are way slower. Mirage Thrust carries you 600 units over about 1 second. Ranger gets 1200 units in that same amount of time. And thats not even getting into needing to dodge for it, which they are rather limited in: GS3 has 1k range and takes longer than 1s, bird swoop has 1,2k and is a bit faster, still can't match ports. Mirage Thrust does not take a full second and dodge isn't the only way to gain access to it. Ofc a mirage isn't adviced to burn everything to catch a ranger, and they don't always have to thanks to ranged cc and boon rip

"How about blinds" not bad, but D/P doesnt get a lot of those, since you can use 2 shadowshots at the start before youre out. 3 Shadow Shots before out of initiative, 4 if stealing to regain initiative. Ofc you don't want to spam it like that, but it is not like players spam skills that you have to blind. Then there are Blinding Powder, Black Powder, possibly Cloaked in Shadow for more blinds. Its still pretty subpar. "Interrupts" D/P thief only gets one from steal, which they engage with Only bad thieves do that, thanks for confirming the obvious. Headshot is too costly, and would clash with blinds as a result. Cheaper than Shadow Shot and absolutely worth to use when able to interrupt key skills. It can even blind when used through smoke field."Stealth" useless for defense. That's why thieves dedicate an entire traitline and multiple skills to this useless defense, and even classes that don't get all the additional benefits love to utilize stealth, right? Try to stealth up mid-combat I do that all the time and it works great, and the Ranger knockback shots you into rapid fire and youre dead. "The ability to constantly dip in and out of melee range" D/P thief does not have that. Dash, Shadow Shot, Heartseeker, Steal, movement increase in stealth, ... - more in combat mobility than anything else. "All with much higher frequency than other classes can use their defensive skills" hahaha, nope. Not even close. Thieves frequence for all of these is pretty kitten low. Holo for example beats them on all of that, and Holo is not even that particularly good of a roamer. Holo spams offensive skills, not defensive ones. Still a pretty damn good class/roamer, but irrelevant for this discussion. Technically Daredevil has access to block, but you dont have the utility skill space to use it, thats why its not used (it is better than what daredevil has though).

Only one extra dodge for the entire fight. Multiple ways to regain endurance "Stolen protection" you have to basically take on mesmer, or be able to survive long enough to steal again (spoilers: You dont) Well yes, YOU don't, i figured that much by now. The 33% reduction isnt used for 3 reasons. First, you have to give up some of what little damage you have. Second, its specifically tied to revealed. Gaining effectively protection at the start of a fight isnt terribly useful, and you dont want to stealth mid-combat because youll take more damage than protection will ever stop. Even with shadow rejuvenation thief healing is far below average. "Evade on SB", if youre on SB youre not a threat. SB 2 does hit pretty hard and if the autoattack bounces eg. ranger-pet-ranger it also deals a lot of dmg. Besides if youre in SB anyway, you just use shortbow 5. No point wasting initiative on an evade to only be killed. "Low base health gets compensated by marauder gear, base armor is the same as ranger's" which would give up some of theives already extremely low damage. Also, Ranger uses Marauders gear. The health advantage is still way in favour of Ranger.

No? Stacking health never has a diminishing value. Its health. Its always useful. Health is useful as long it can be filled back up. More health is only useful with more healing eg in grps, for solo 18-20k is more than enough and other stats become more valuable at this point (with necro being an exception due to how shroud works). Ranger has access to de facto invulnerability No, dmg immunity and invuln are not the same and it's not just condis which make a difference. (doesnt help vs condis but hey, condis destroy thief as well). But you are right, its not terribly common. "Heals can be interrupted by steal" steal is used at the start to push damage usually. And headshot isnt used. So not really. "Protection and stab can be stolen" same as before, steal is used at the start. See above, repeating nonsense does not make it less nonsensical. Fair point on the smokescale though. Not that Ranger needs that evade to get ahead. Boonbeast still bursts harder than thief does. Weaver while tanky still does a lot more damage than thief does. Warrior is stronger than thief in pretty much every regard other than non-horizontal mobility. More damage, better survivability, better CC, better utility. Seriously there is a reason why Warrior was subpar, but playable in sPvPs 2v2 mode, and Theif was 100% unplayable (mobility didnt matter in that gamemode, it was only about fighting).

You dont need to be hit by the full channel. Besides, not much you can do if youre knocked back. Yea, totally can't stunbreak or steal ... Avoiding half of it will put its damage still above backstab damage (5k vs what typically ends up being around 4k. Again, thats without Sic' Em). Hardly. And that part is absolutely not true. There is nothing you can avoid via stealth (other than living, I suppose). Everything can be avoided via stealth except channels which already started casting or aoes if you deliberately step into them. Dieing in stealth is 99% of the time a l2p issue. And they absolutely are extremely low damage given their bad frequency, and how easy it is to react to shadowshot. You get one backstab at the start, and then maybe one every 25 seconds. Thats bad. You get a shadowshot every 5 seconds, but besides being easy to dodge, its also literally your entire damage at that point. All youve got left are your autos, that hit like a noodle. And of course Maul will always hit for more. It has a higher coefficient, and thats not even getting into the better damage multipliers Ranger has nowadays. Ranger will always hit way harder. Maul coef: 1,36 Backstab coeff: 1,8. After modifiers (Sic'Em excluded) it usually results in similar dmg when comparing average SA Marauder thief and average Zerk/Mara SlB

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@Eventine.8024 said:Simple question: I want to play thief rifle in WvW, but when I battle with any other class, ranger for example, this happens:Ranger has more mobilityRanger has more stealthRanger has more healingRanger has more burst and damage over timeLongbow vs rifle (or short bot): rapid fire kills everything, while rifle and short bow do insignificant damage. Rapid fire keep hitting even if i'm in stealthRanger has invulnerable, ranger has pet, ranger has amazing down skill.Ranger has stabilityThief has boon strip.How this is balanced? Why Dev has this amazing game and still manage to ruin it every patch? Where is WvW alliance system?I play gw2 since betaweekend 1, and it's already 2 years I lost faith in you.

Eventine

Just correcting a few things here for you as an experienced pvper and player since launch:

  • Thief has more mobility on its meta build and access to even more if needed. Significantly more. Steal, sword 2 port, shadow shot, infiltrators signet, shortbow 5, 180 + rifle 4, shadow step. Just to name a few options. Ranger has greatsword 3, bird or deer or canine leap or smoke assault (only one can be used and with soulbeast), sword leap, druid staff 3.

  • I won't even go into how much stealth thief has or it's quick access to it. Instead let's look at rangers, longbow 3 which is used for reposition (only lasts 3 seconds), smoke scale field (must be blasted in order to use, ranger has very little access to blasts), Druid's stealth on exiting celestial avatar IF you traited for it. Not sure how you think this is more than thief.

  • ranger has more healing. Yes, but it's also more susceptible to incoming damage than thief. Thief has less healing on its meta builds because if they had more they'd be literally immortal. A properly played thief will only die if it overextended/gets greedy. They choose their fights and can easily nope the kitten out if it goes south.

  • Thief has more burst this isn't even debatable after the nerfs to ranger. There is still commander sniping builds in play.

  • rapid fire has been heavily nerfed. In order to output killable damage the ranger has to play glass or mostly glass cannon damage. Thief has a lower health pool and is balanced around its mobility, burst, and disengage. If you eat the full rapid fire you'll die. You can counter this with an interrupt, bandits defense to block, using vertical mobility/terrain/objects, etc. Channelled abilities have always been strong against thief.

  • ranger is balanced around its in combat capabilities just as thief is. Ranger isn't full ranged, it's designed around floating in and out of melee when played properly. It doesn't have the disengage a thief has, but it does have evades, blocks, and high mobility/small access to stealth. Fun fact, a power Herald can keep up with and kill a soulbeast with all its mobility skills taken.

  • Thief has boon strip? Not sure how this is a negative against ranger.

Conclusion, I'm not knocking thief in all this, but your limited experience on one suggests to me that you may be better off with ranger. If it's so powerful maybe you're just better with that class? I guarantee you'd change your tune if you play it long enough.

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nah as 1v1 thief is vastly superior to ranger. Higher mobility, burst and sustain. Sets like marauders removes the inherent weaknes of full glass builds, as such a thief should never die to a ranger as no single burst is enough to defeat a thief before it can go into stealth, teleport and reset the fight.

Thief has very powefull condibuilds when ranger does not have any suitable condi build which works outside of the meme traiblazzers druid.

thief also has a semi-accepted zerg build with the staff DD and portal, while ranger is still strugling to get one and is still not wanted in squads. When i mean not wanted i mean is activelly discouraged and bullied in WvW by commanders and other players.Meme immob ranger is not still recogniced as useful build outside of very niche ganking guilds.

So in resume thief is superior than ranger, more wanted than ranger, and it hasn't to deal with the buggy AI.

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@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@"anduriell.6280" said:nah as 1v1 thief is vastly superior to ranger. Higher mobility, burst and sustain. Sets like marauders removes the inherent weaknes of full glass builds, as such a thief should never die to a ranger as no single burst is enough to defeat a thief before it can go into stealth, teleport and reset the fight.

Thief has very powefull condibuilds when ranger does not have any suitable condi build which works outside of the meme traiblazzers druid.

thief also has a semi-accepted zerg build with the staff DD and portal, while ranger is still strugling to get one and is still not wanted in squads. When i mean not wanted i mean is activelly discouraged and bullied in WvW by commanders and other players.Meme immob ranger is not still recogniced as useful build outside of very niche ganking guilds.

So in resume thief is superior than ranger, more wanted than ranger, and it hasn't to deal with the buggy AI.

U cant be serious, can u? I mean better at 1v1, burst and sustain? U literally have zero clue man lmao. A ranger of equal skill should destroy a thief 1v1 and has far more burst and sustain options than a thief could dream off. If ranger had thiefs mobility in conquest it literally replace thieves and provide more. In wvw theres more rangers than most other classes even though the suck in zergs. Man the things people think do to bias omg.

I mean are you surprised? "Thief has higher burst". Yeah the class whose hardest hitting skill tops out at 5k bursts harder than the class whose rapid fire can hit upwards of 10k. Or how about "Theif has higher sustain", despite having far less sustain. About the only part he got right is that thief has the better condi build. Barely.

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@"UNOwen.7132" said:I mean are you surprised? "Thief has higher burst". Yeah the class whose hardest hitting skill tops out at 5k bursts harder than the class whose rapid fire can hit upwards of 10k. Or how about "Theif has higher sustain", despite having far less sustain. About the only part he got right is that thief has the better condi build. Barely.

Thief's hardest-hitting skills are sub-25 Heartseeker or Death's Judgement, not normie Backstab.

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@ASP.8093 said:

@"UNOwen.7132" said:I mean are you surprised? "Thief has higher burst". Yeah the class whose hardest hitting skill tops out at 5k bursts harder than the class whose rapid fire can hit upwards of 10k. Or how about "Theif has higher sustain", despite having far less sustain. About the only part he got right is that thief has the better condi build. Barely.

Thief's hardest-hitting skills are sub-25 Heartseeker or Death's Judgement, not normie Backstab

Heartseeker only hits very slightly harder. Its still around 5k. DJ would hit for more, but you never land a DJ on an enemy who isnt AFK. Though even DJ hits a lot less hard than Rapid Fire. Not to mention both of these are finishers. You dont burst with them.

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@Strider.7849 said:

  • Thief has more burst this isn't even debatable after the nerfs to ranger. There is still commander sniping builds in play.

hmm not sure about this..played thief for long time and ranger aswell (pretty much only 2 i play)ranger on more deffensive stats has far better burst then a thief.i mean people will say im crying but thief burst is so sad right now..

mean while on my ranger who is using durability runes and some armor (dunno which but no zerk stats at all) is doing far better dmg wise.tbh i dont really mind the nerfs ill play thief till i quit but thief isnt as it used to be.

they nerfed staff thief well nerfed not rly increased the ini use on staff 5 which was not really needed so that zerg build ur on about is not that good anymore u can do 2 vaults and ur out of ini. so thief is in same state as ranger useless and probably next nerf is inc again.cus thief is not useless in sPvP and since wvw takes alot of shit from sPvP they probably get nerfed again for nothing rly.

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@reddie.5861 said:

@Eventine.8024 said:Simple question: I want to play thief rifle in WvW, but when I battle with any other class, ranger for example, this happens:Ranger has more mobilityRanger has more stealthRanger has more healingRanger has more burst and damage over timeLongbow vs rifle (or short bot): rapid fire kills everything, while rifle and short bow do insignificant damage. Rapid fire keep hitting even if i'm in stealthRanger has invulnerable, ranger has pet, ranger has amazing down skill.Ranger has stabilityThief has boon strip.How this is balanced? Why Dev has this amazing game and still manage to ruin it every patch? Where is WvW alliance system?I play gw2 since betaweekend 1, and it's already 2 years I lost faith in you.

Eventine

ranger has more stealth? how? a blast and longbow 3? and maybe if u play druid? or use trapper runes? basically not tru.Not even then. Ranger can't permastealth.

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I feel like there's a lot of hyperbole going around, especially when it comes to anything to do with thieves. Thieves are worthless! Thieves are OP! Thieves can only tickle another player! Thieves are monsters who will eat your children with a single Backstab!

The reality is… a lot more mundane. No competent ranger is a free kill for a thief, because their build includes strong ranged burst/pressure and a good deal of short-term defense and sustain; it's a fairly strong class with good roaming potential. But thieves have exceptional mobility, decent burst compression if you build for it, and they're one of the best classes for countering glass-cannon builds even if they're not currently the hardest-hitting of the glass cannons themselves.

(Personally, I value the flexiblity enough that I'd much rather play thief.)

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@reddie.5861 said:

@"Strider.7849" said:
  • Thief has more burst this isn't even debatable after the nerfs to ranger. There is still commander sniping builds in play.

hmm not sure about this..played thief for long time and ranger aswell (pretty much only 2 i play)ranger on more deffensive stats has far better burst then a thief.i mean people will say im crying but thief burst is so sad right now..

mean while on my ranger who is using durability runes and some armor (dunno which but no zerk stats at all) is doing far better dmg wise.tbh i dont really mind the nerfs ill play thief till i quit but thief isnt as it used to be.

they nerfed staff thief well nerfed not rly increased the ini use on staff 5 which was not really needed so that zerg build ur on about is not that good anymore u can do 2 vaults and ur out of ini. so thief is in same state as ranger useless and probably next nerf is inc again.cus thief is not useless in sPvP and since wvw takes alot of kitten from sPvP they probably get nerfed again for nothing rly.

I have a screenshot of a thief dealing upward of 10k+ dmg between a backstab and a HS followed by around 8k+ more dmg soon after.

In the screenshot I was using an experimental build, made for the sake of testing and I was using : 2.9k toughness = 4k armor....why do thief players keep lying so blatantly? ..."thief burst is sad right now"....please stop it....there are dozens of videos out there proving you wrong

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@Arheundel.6451 said:

@"Strider.7849" said:
  • Thief has more burst this isn't even debatable after the nerfs to ranger. There is still commander sniping builds in play.

hmm not sure about this..played thief for long time and ranger aswell (pretty much only 2 i play)ranger on more deffensive stats has far better burst then a thief.i mean people will say im crying but thief burst is so sad right now..

mean while on my ranger who is using durability runes and some armor (dunno which but no zerk stats at all) is doing far better dmg wise.tbh i dont really mind the nerfs ill play thief till i quit but thief isnt as it used to be.

they nerfed staff thief well nerfed not rly increased the ini use on staff 5 which was not really needed so that zerg build ur on about is not that good anymore u can do 2 vaults and ur out of ini. so thief is in same state as ranger useless and probably next nerf is inc again.cus thief is not useless in sPvP and since wvw takes alot of kitten from sPvP they probably get nerfed again for nothing rly.

I have a screenshot
of a thief dealing upward of 10k+ dmg between a backstab and a HS followed by around 8k+ more dmg soon after.

Do you mean 10k with a backstab + HS, or either backstab or HS? The former, sure, if youre low hp, possible. The latter, unless youre a glass and theyre playing a very bad build, is not possible.

In the screenshot I was using an experimental build, made for the sake of testing and I was using : 2.9k toughness = 4k armor....why do thief players keep lying so blatantly? ..."thief burst is sad right now"....please stop it....there are dozens of videos out there proving you wrong

Yeah ok with 4k armour there is absolutely no way the thief got 10k+ damage from a single backstab without shenanigans. Im not even sure its possible with shenanigans. And no, there are dozens of videos showing that thief burst is indeed sad.

we have a frontstab on a squishy thief. 2k. A backstab would do 4k. So how exactly do you think a thief wouldve backstabbed for over 10k on a 4k armour guy? With 4k armour youd take half the damage, so unless the thief somehow miraculously got a 400% damage boost from somewhere, Im gonna call BS.
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@anduriell.6280 said:nah as 1v1 thief is vastly superior to ranger. Higher mobility, burst and sustain. Sets like marauders removes the inherent weaknes of full glass builds, as such a thief should never die to a ranger as no single burst is enough to defeat a thief before it can go into stealth, teleport and reset the fight.

Thief has very powefull condibuilds when ranger does not have any suitable condi build which works outside of the meme traiblazzers druid.

thief also has a semi-accepted zerg build with the staff DD and portal, while ranger is still strugling to get one and is still not wanted in squads. When i mean not wanted i mean is activelly discouraged and bullied in WvW by commanders and other players.Meme immob ranger is not still recogniced as useful build outside of very niche ganking guilds.

So in resume thief is superior than ranger, more wanted than ranger, and it hasn't to deal with the buggy AI.

Speaking from a WvW perspective, no. Ranger is one of the best 1v1ers out there. Thief has the ability to control whether it wants to take or continue or a fight because of its mobility, that doesn't mean it's superior. If you force a Thief in to an unfavorable location where it cannot hard kite it becomes a whole lot less of a threat. Granted, if you're playing Longbow Ranger, the same can be said of you, but there are numerous durable brawler type Ranger builds that are strong in those situations and some of the best (not the best) dueling builds among any class.

I would say Ranger has a slight advantage over Thief in a 1v1 if properly played/built, but the difference isn't tremendous. Ranger can continue to pressure a Thief while it's trying to kite, assuming the Ranger is using Longbow and/or has other forms of mobility available, which is one of the Thiefs biggest advantages against other classes. Again assuming the proper build, Ranger is also better at resustaining itself in a prolonged fight and more likely to wear the Thief down or force it to disengage.

Just remember that running is not winning, it's giving up. If someone OOC's on you (this goes for anything, not just Thief) the best thing for you to do is to move the opposite direction as soon as you see them trying to drop combat on you. If you can't chase them and you know it, moving away from them will drop combat for the both of you more quickly and you can choose either to Mount up and take the draw, or allow your health to reset and restart the fight when the player likely tries to reengage you. Chasing someone is almost never a good idea, especially a Thief. You just burn skills doing it and risk getting outnumbered as well.

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@"Strider.7849" said:
  • Thief has more burst this isn't even debatable after the nerfs to ranger. There is still commander sniping builds in play.

hmm not sure about this..played thief for long time and ranger aswell (pretty much only 2 i play)ranger on more deffensive stats has far better burst then a thief.i mean people will say im crying but thief burst is so sad right now..

mean while on my ranger who is using durability runes and some armor (dunno which but no zerk stats at all) is doing far better dmg wise.tbh i dont really mind the nerfs ill play thief till i quit but thief isnt as it used to be.

they nerfed staff thief well nerfed not rly increased the ini use on staff 5 which was not really needed so that zerg build ur on about is not that good anymore u can do 2 vaults and ur out of ini. so thief is in same state as ranger useless and probably next nerf is inc again.cus thief is not useless in sPvP and since wvw takes alot of kitten from sPvP they probably get nerfed again for nothing rly.

I have a screenshot
of a thief dealing upward of 10k+ dmg between a backstab and a HS followed by around 8k+ more dmg soon after.

Do you mean 10k with a backstab + HS, or either backstab or HS? The former, sure, if youre low hp, possible. The latter, unless youre a glass and theyre playing a very bad build, is not possible.

In the screenshot I was using an experimental build, made for the sake of testing and I was using :
2.9k toughness = 4k armor
....why do thief players keep lying so blatantly? ..."thief burst is sad right now"....please stop it....there are dozens of videos out there proving you wrong

Yeah ok with 4k armour there is absolutely no way the thief got 10k+ damage from a single backstab without shenanigans. Im not even sure its possible
with
shenanigans. And no, there are dozens of videos showing that thief burst is indeed sad.
we have a frontstab on a squishy thief. 2k. A backstab would do 4k. So how exactly do you think a thief wouldve backstabbed for over 10k on a 4k armour guy? With 4k armour youd take
half
the damage, so unless the thief somehow miraculously got a 400% damage boost from somewhere, Im gonna call BS.

HSPmDfM.jpg

I have clearly stated 10k dmg as a combination of a backstab and a Heartseeker while the target has 4k armor...I was full HP

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Ranger doesn't necessarily have more mobility than a thief (obviously it depends on both players builds), they just have great mobility plus really good range if they are using longbow. If you are not a very experienced thief, fighting a good ranger will be very difficult.

Takes practice.

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@Kadsik.9281 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:I think everything you said there is wrong.

I'm guessing you play ranger right? OP's post feels a whiny, but for the most part I do not think he's wrong, atleast with damage and healing.I have 85 hours on my only ranger character over the last 2000 days. Roughly half of that is world completion. I have 7900 hours on my account.

So guess how close to correct you are.

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@Arheundel.6451 said:

@"Strider.7849" said:
  • Thief has more burst this isn't even debatable after the nerfs to ranger. There is still commander sniping builds in play.

hmm not sure about this..played thief for long time and ranger aswell (pretty much only 2 i play)ranger on more deffensive stats has far better burst then a thief.i mean people will say im crying but thief burst is so sad right now..

mean while on my ranger who is using durability runes and some armor (dunno which but no zerk stats at all) is doing far better dmg wise.tbh i dont really mind the nerfs ill play thief till i quit but thief isnt as it used to be.

they nerfed staff thief well nerfed not rly increased the ini use on staff 5 which was not really needed so that zerg build ur on about is not that good anymore u can do 2 vaults and ur out of ini. so thief is in same state as ranger useless and probably next nerf is inc again.cus thief is not useless in sPvP and since wvw takes alot of kitten from sPvP they probably get nerfed again for nothing rly.

I have a screenshot
of a thief dealing upward of 10k+ dmg between a backstab and a HS followed by around 8k+ more dmg soon after.

Do you mean 10k with a backstab + HS, or either backstab or HS? The former, sure, if youre low hp, possible. The latter, unless youre a glass and theyre playing a very bad build, is not possible.

In the screenshot I was using an experimental build, made for the sake of testing and I was using :
2.9k toughness = 4k armor
....why do thief players keep lying so blatantly? ..."thief burst is sad right now"....please stop it....there are dozens of videos out there proving you wrong

Yeah ok with 4k armour there is absolutely no way the thief got 10k+ damage from a single backstab without shenanigans. Im not even sure its possible
with
shenanigans. And no, there are dozens of videos showing that thief burst is indeed sad.
we have a frontstab on a squishy thief. 2k. A backstab would do 4k. So how exactly do you think a thief wouldve backstabbed for over 10k on a 4k armour guy? With 4k armour youd take
half
the damage, so unless the thief somehow miraculously got a 400% damage boost from somewhere, Im gonna call BS.

HSPmDfM.jpg

I have clearly stated 10k dmg as a combination of a backstab and a Heartseeker while the target has 4k armor...
I was full HP

5k backstab>? while your maul can hit easily for 8k? and then u do 5 and maul again? and u have beast abilities and go on thief is in a sad state, and i dont really care but if u think thief is what it used to be in core days then keep dreaming.

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@Arheundel.6451 said:

@"Strider.7849" said:
  • Thief has more burst this isn't even debatable after the nerfs to ranger. There is still commander sniping builds in play.

hmm not sure about this..played thief for long time and ranger aswell (pretty much only 2 i play)ranger on more deffensive stats has far better burst then a thief.i mean people will say im crying but thief burst is so sad right now..

mean while on my ranger who is using durability runes and some armor (dunno which but no zerk stats at all) is doing far better dmg wise.tbh i dont really mind the nerfs ill play thief till i quit but thief isnt as it used to be.

they nerfed staff thief well nerfed not rly increased the ini use on staff 5 which was not really needed so that zerg build ur on about is not that good anymore u can do 2 vaults and ur out of ini. so thief is in same state as ranger useless and probably next nerf is inc again.cus thief is not useless in sPvP and since wvw takes alot of kitten from sPvP they probably get nerfed again for nothing rly.

I have a screenshot
of a thief dealing upward of 10k+ dmg between a backstab and a HS followed by around 8k+ more dmg soon after.

Do you mean 10k with a backstab + HS, or either backstab or HS? The former, sure, if youre low hp, possible. The latter, unless youre a glass and theyre playing a very bad build, is not possible.

In the screenshot I was using an experimental build, made for the sake of testing and I was using :
2.9k toughness = 4k armor
....why do thief players keep lying so blatantly? ..."thief burst is sad right now"....please stop it....there are dozens of videos out there proving you wrong

Yeah ok with 4k armour there is absolutely no way the thief got 10k+ damage from a single backstab without shenanigans. Im not even sure its possible
with
shenanigans. And no, there are dozens of videos showing that thief burst is indeed sad.
we have a frontstab on a squishy thief. 2k. A backstab would do 4k. So how exactly do you think a thief wouldve backstabbed for over 10k on a 4k armour guy? With 4k armour youd take
half
the damage, so unless the thief somehow miraculously got a 400% damage boost from somewhere, Im gonna call BS.

HSPmDfM.jpg

I have clearly stated 10k dmg as a combination of a backstab and a Heartseeker while the target has 4k armor...
I was full HP

It was many things, "clearly" it was not. But this is at least possible .... with shenanigans. Not in any realistic scenario, of course, in a realistic scenario youd take 2k from backstab and 1k from heartseeker. I assume that the Thief is playing something like DA/SA/CS (which is a really bad build since you dont even have trickery), he was at full hp, had pre-stacked might somehow, used assassins signet, and you had vuln or condis on you somehow. Otherwise, its still not possible.

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@"Strider.7849" said:
  • Thief has more burst this isn't even debatable after the nerfs to ranger. There is still commander sniping builds in play.

hmm not sure about this..played thief for long time and ranger aswell (pretty much only 2 i play)ranger on more deffensive stats has far better burst then a thief.i mean people will say im crying but thief burst is so sad right now..

mean while on my ranger who is using durability runes and some armor (dunno which but no zerk stats at all) is doing far better dmg wise.tbh i dont really mind the nerfs ill play thief till i quit but thief isnt as it used to be.

they nerfed staff thief well nerfed not rly increased the ini use on staff 5 which was not really needed so that zerg build ur on about is not that good anymore u can do 2 vaults and ur out of ini. so thief is in same state as ranger useless and probably next nerf is inc again.cus thief is not useless in sPvP and since wvw takes alot of kitten from sPvP they probably get nerfed again for nothing rly.

I have a screenshot
of a thief dealing upward of 10k+ dmg between a backstab and a HS followed by around 8k+ more dmg soon after.

Do you mean 10k with a backstab + HS, or either backstab or HS? The former, sure, if youre low hp, possible. The latter, unless youre a glass and theyre playing a very bad build, is not possible.

In the screenshot I was using an experimental build, made for the sake of testing and I was using :
2.9k toughness = 4k armor
....why do thief players keep lying so blatantly? ..."thief burst is sad right now"....please stop it....there are dozens of videos out there proving you wrong

Yeah ok with 4k armour there is absolutely no way the thief got 10k+ damage from a single backstab without shenanigans. Im not even sure its possible
with
shenanigans. And no, there are dozens of videos showing that thief burst is indeed sad.
we have a frontstab on a squishy thief. 2k. A backstab would do 4k. So how exactly do you think a thief wouldve backstabbed for over 10k on a 4k armour guy? With 4k armour youd take
half
the damage, so unless the thief somehow miraculously got a 400% damage boost from somewhere, Im gonna call BS.

HSPmDfM.jpg

I have clearly stated 10k dmg as a combination of a backstab and a Heartseeker while the target has 4k armor...
I was full HP

It was many things, "clearly" it was not. But this is at least possible .... with shenanigans. Not in any realistic scenario, of course, in a realistic scenario youd take 2k from backstab and 1k from heartseeker. I assume that the Thief is playing something like DA/SA/CS (which is a
really
bad build since you dont even have trickery), he was at full hp, had pre-stacked might somehow, used assassins signet, and you had vuln or condis on you somehow. Otherwise, its still not possible.

There’s a couple of important things here. The first strike is 6k. That’s pretty heavy for a thief using sPvP stats but I’d buy those numbers based on WvW stats and getting some significant vulnerability onto the target.

The second strike is only for 2.8k, which is not that significant for HS (still high HP so the modifier is pretty low). The combo of an Air sigil and some life steal off food is what pushes this over 10k for the two skills. (Nearly 1k off the sigil is 10% of the damage).

Now, with 18k HP, that pushes the ranger below 50% and the next Heartseeker hits a bit harder. The last HS is below 25% and hits the hardest.

If I had to guess with the self-reported stats the thief is running a very one shot oriented build. Backstab, HS x3. Likely a very quick sequence because there is probably a time limit to how long the damage is that high (or the thief is running very glassy). On a lower toughness opponent they probably would have hit a 8k+ BS and a 4k+ base HS. Again that’s with WvW stats where base power can be much higher.

This is why people should record their gameplay and then slow down the video so they can see everything that hits them. Recording software can passively run in the background so you just hit record when something interesting happened and you want to figure it out.

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@reddie.5861 said:

@"Strider.7849" said:
  • Thief has more burst this isn't even debatable after the nerfs to ranger. There is still commander sniping builds in play.

hmm not sure about this..played thief for long time and ranger aswell (pretty much only 2 i play)ranger on more deffensive stats has far better burst then a thief.i mean people will say im crying but thief burst is so sad right now..

mean while on my ranger who is using durability runes and some armor (dunno which but no zerk stats at all) is doing far better dmg wise.tbh i dont really mind the nerfs ill play thief till i quit but thief isnt as it used to be.

they nerfed staff thief well nerfed not rly increased the ini use on staff 5 which was not really needed so that zerg build ur on about is not that good anymore u can do 2 vaults and ur out of ini. so thief is in same state as ranger useless and probably next nerf is inc again.cus thief is not useless in sPvP and since wvw takes alot of kitten from sPvP they probably get nerfed again for nothing rly.

I have a screenshot
of a thief dealing upward of 10k+ dmg between a backstab and a HS followed by around 8k+ more dmg soon after.

Do you mean 10k with a backstab + HS, or either backstab or HS? The former, sure, if youre low hp, possible. The latter, unless youre a glass and theyre playing a very bad build, is not possible.

In the screenshot I was using an experimental build, made for the sake of testing and I was using :
2.9k toughness = 4k armor
....why do thief players keep lying so blatantly? ..."thief burst is sad right now"....please stop it....there are dozens of videos out there proving you wrong

Yeah ok with 4k armour there is absolutely no way the thief got 10k+ damage from a single backstab without shenanigans. Im not even sure its possible
with
shenanigans. And no, there are dozens of videos showing that thief burst is indeed sad.
we have a frontstab on a squishy thief. 2k. A backstab would do 4k. So how exactly do you think a thief wouldve backstabbed for over 10k on a 4k armour guy? With 4k armour youd take
half
the damage, so unless the thief somehow miraculously got a 400% damage boost from somewhere, Im gonna call BS.

HSPmDfM.jpg

I have clearly stated 10k dmg as a combination of a backstab and a Heartseeker while the target has 4k armor...
I was full HP

5k backstab>? while your maul can hit easily for 8k? and then u do 5 and maul again? and u have beast abilities and go on thief is in a sad state, and i dont really care but if u think thief is what it used to be in core days then keep dreaming.

8k maul while using that experimental build in that screenshot?...No way in hell you'd reach that high unless you run an equally glassy build like the thief like WS/MM and soulbeast with sic'em and some luck...but at that point you'd receive upward of 9k dmg bursts from anything out there

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@saerni.2584 said:

@"Strider.7849" said:
  • Thief has more burst this isn't even debatable after the nerfs to ranger. There is still commander sniping builds in play.

hmm not sure about this..played thief for long time and ranger aswell (pretty much only 2 i play)ranger on more deffensive stats has far better burst then a thief.i mean people will say im crying but thief burst is so sad right now..

mean while on my ranger who is using durability runes and some armor (dunno which but no zerk stats at all) is doing far better dmg wise.tbh i dont really mind the nerfs ill play thief till i quit but thief isnt as it used to be.

they nerfed staff thief well nerfed not rly increased the ini use on staff 5 which was not really needed so that zerg build ur on about is not that good anymore u can do 2 vaults and ur out of ini. so thief is in same state as ranger useless and probably next nerf is inc again.cus thief is not useless in sPvP and since wvw takes alot of kitten from sPvP they probably get nerfed again for nothing rly.

I have a screenshot
of a thief dealing upward of 10k+ dmg between a backstab and a HS followed by around 8k+ more dmg soon after.

Do you mean 10k with a backstab + HS, or either backstab or HS? The former, sure, if youre low hp, possible. The latter, unless youre a glass and theyre playing a very bad build, is not possible.

In the screenshot I was using an experimental build, made for the sake of testing and I was using :
2.9k toughness = 4k armor
....why do thief players keep lying so blatantly? ..."thief burst is sad right now"....please stop it....there are dozens of videos out there proving you wrong

Yeah ok with 4k armour there is absolutely no way the thief got 10k+ damage from a single backstab without shenanigans. Im not even sure its possible
with
shenanigans. And no, there are dozens of videos showing that thief burst is indeed sad.
we have a frontstab on a squishy thief. 2k. A backstab would do 4k. So how exactly do you think a thief wouldve backstabbed for over 10k on a 4k armour guy? With 4k armour youd take
half
the damage, so unless the thief somehow miraculously got a 400% damage boost from somewhere, Im gonna call BS.

HSPmDfM.jpg

I have clearly stated 10k dmg as a combination of a backstab and a Heartseeker while the target has 4k armor...
I was full HP

It was many things, "clearly" it was not. But this is at least possible .... with shenanigans. Not in any realistic scenario, of course, in a realistic scenario youd take 2k from backstab and 1k from heartseeker. I assume that the Thief is playing something like DA/SA/CS (which is a
really
bad build since you dont even have trickery), he was at full hp, had pre-stacked might somehow, used assassins signet, and you had vuln or condis on you somehow. Otherwise, its still not possible.

There’s a couple of important things here. The first strike is 6k. That’s pretty heavy for a thief using sPvP stats but I’d buy those numbers based on WvW stats and getting some significant vulnerability onto the target.

The second strike is only for 2.8k, which is not that significant for HS (still high HP so the modifier is pretty low). The combo of an Air sigil and some life steal off food is what pushes this over 10k for the two skills. (Nearly 1k off the sigil is 10% of the damage).

Now, with 18k HP, that pushes the ranger below 50% and the next Heartseeker hits a bit harder. The last HS is below 25% and hits the hardest.

If I had to guess with the self-reported stats the thief is running a very one shot oriented build. Backstab, HS x3. Likely a very quick sequence because there is probably a time limit to how long the damage is that high (or the thief is running very glassy). On a lower toughness opponent they probably would have hit a 8k+ BS and a 4k+ base HS. Again that’s with WvW stats where base power can be much higher.

This is why people should record their gameplay and then slow down the video so they can see everything that hits them. Recording software can passively run in the background so you just hit record when something interesting happened and you want to figure it out.

He was a [sA] thief and I was standing still in bay, my aim was to calculate how much dmg I could receive while having the highest possible armor rating on a ranger. From the screenshot you can see that it all happened within the space of 1.5s. I am not suggesting whether the build is legitimate or a hack because I don't care really...all I am saying that thief is far from being the weak class as some would make you believe , thief is one of the top duelist in WvW , when it comes to 1v1 potential thief and ranger are a cut above the rest when mastered though and that's fine given their core design ideology.

Yes...I know that whatever I say won't stop people from shouting : "my class is UP buff me", if Anet wants to give 20k backstab dmg to thieves let them....with my screenshot I have proved that thieves do high dmg...that's all....now people can keep asking for buff all they want till they shut down these servers....I really couldn't care less at this point

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@saerni.2584 said:

@"Strider.7849" said:
  • Thief has more burst this isn't even debatable after the nerfs to ranger. There is still commander sniping builds in play.

hmm not sure about this..played thief for long time and ranger aswell (pretty much only 2 i play)ranger on more deffensive stats has far better burst then a thief.i mean people will say im crying but thief burst is so sad right now..

mean while on my ranger who is using durability runes and some armor (dunno which but no zerk stats at all) is doing far better dmg wise.tbh i dont really mind the nerfs ill play thief till i quit but thief isnt as it used to be.

they nerfed staff thief well nerfed not rly increased the ini use on staff 5 which was not really needed so that zerg build ur on about is not that good anymore u can do 2 vaults and ur out of ini. so thief is in same state as ranger useless and probably next nerf is inc again.cus thief is not useless in sPvP and since wvw takes alot of kitten from sPvP they probably get nerfed again for nothing rly.

I have a screenshot
of a thief dealing upward of 10k+ dmg between a backstab and a HS followed by around 8k+ more dmg soon after.

Do you mean 10k with a backstab + HS, or either backstab or HS? The former, sure, if youre low hp, possible. The latter, unless youre a glass and theyre playing a very bad build, is not possible.

In the screenshot I was using an experimental build, made for the sake of testing and I was using :
2.9k toughness = 4k armor
....why do thief players keep lying so blatantly? ..."thief burst is sad right now"....please stop it....there are dozens of videos out there proving you wrong

Yeah ok with 4k armour there is absolutely no way the thief got 10k+ damage from a single backstab without shenanigans. Im not even sure its possible
with
shenanigans. And no, there are dozens of videos showing that thief burst is indeed sad.
we have a frontstab on a squishy thief. 2k. A backstab would do 4k. So how exactly do you think a thief wouldve backstabbed for over 10k on a 4k armour guy? With 4k armour youd take
half
the damage, so unless the thief somehow miraculously got a 400% damage boost from somewhere, Im gonna call BS.

HSPmDfM.jpg

I have clearly stated 10k dmg as a combination of a backstab and a Heartseeker while the target has 4k armor...
I was full HP

It was many things, "clearly" it was not. But this is at least possible .... with shenanigans. Not in any realistic scenario, of course, in a realistic scenario youd take 2k from backstab and 1k from heartseeker. I assume that the Thief is playing something like DA/SA/CS (which is a
really
bad build since you dont even have trickery), he was at full hp, had pre-stacked might somehow, used assassins signet, and you had vuln or condis on you somehow. Otherwise, its still not possible.

There’s a couple of important things here. The first strike is 6k. That’s pretty heavy for a thief using sPvP stats but I’d buy those numbers based on WvW stats and getting some significant vulnerability onto the target.

Its a lot for a WvW strike even on a squishy glass cannon. On a supposed 4k armour target, no way in hell you ever get 6k backstabs off.

The second strike is only for 2.8k, which is not that significant for HS (still high HP so the modifier is pretty low). The combo of an Air sigil and some life steal off food is what pushes this over 10k for the two skills. (Nearly 1k off the sigil is 10% of the damage).

Its actually a bit higher than a >50% hp Heartseeker does on a squishy target. Again, 4k armour, not a chance.

Now, with 18k HP, that pushes the ranger below 50% and the next Heartseeker hits a bit harder. The last HS is below 25% and hits the hardest.

Thats about right.

If I had to guess with the self-reported stats the thief is running a very one shot oriented build. Backstab, HS x3. Likely a very quick sequence because there is probably a time limit to how long the damage is that high (or the thief is running very glassy). On a lower toughness opponent they probably would have hit a 8k+ BS and a 4k+ base HS. Again that’s with WvW stats where base power can be much higher.

No, on a lower toughness target they would have hit a 5k, maybe a 6k if theyre pushing it, backstab. His damage is much higher than is possible without shenanigans. Because its not a realistic damage number.

This is why people should record their gameplay and then slow down the video so they can see everything that hits them. Recording software can passively run in the background so you just hit record when something interesting happened and you want to figure it out.

I have a good guess as to why he didnt want to do that here.

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