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Why no hybrids?

DaVid Darksoul.4985DaVid Darksoul.4985 Member ✭✭✭
edited September 16, 2020 in Lore

Why do we see no hybrids such as a norn/charr or asuran/human? That would be awesome to have, although sylvaria would not be included since they don't reproduce sexually. It would be solely cosmetic since all races and classes have the same base stats, with the possibility of different elites. I also would really love to have split classes such as GW1 had, my toon was necro/ele, very strong. Different base stats system such as used by D&D games could also be applied to hybrids maybe? Would be a way to break the mundane. Sylvaria maybe could be included if a way to merge souls to create a lifeform was invented. Just rambling thoughts here ojn making GW2 more interesting.

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Comments

  • Astyrah.4015Astyrah.4015 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:
    You dont dilute superior intellect.

    this too. lol i doubt the asura would want their race to be tainted/diluted by the lessers

  • Taril.8619Taril.8619 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Biology is a fickle thing.

    There needs to be quite a lot in common genetically for mixed race offspring to exist.

    That said, this lack of suitable offspring doesn't seem to stop mixed race relationships from forming, notably with Braham and Rox.

    Whether or not this particular aspect is intentional design of making all the races within Tyria non-compatible with one another (Though, there's a wonder about jotunn/kodan/norn as they might actually be related) due to going in depth into their biology or whether this is just a way to not have to deal with trying to design suitable hybrid races for each functional pairing.

    Of course, genetic incompatibility doesn't necessarily stop the ability for mixed races to occur. Asuran magitech could feasibly attain the ability to fuse DNA from multiple species while bypassing the aspects of incompatibility. Such a device could be borne of a particular asura that is in a relationship with a member of a different race and wishes to have a child together...

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  • Khisanth.2948Khisanth.2948 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astyrah.4015 said:
    i know it's fantasy and it's a game -- but if i remember my biology correctly you need to have the same amount of chromosomes (2 haploids) and your genetic material has to be compatible -- amount other things -- to properly produce an offspring and even if you manage to produce an offspring inter-species, it's most likely sterile and unable to reproduce on it's own and thus ending it's lineage before it even started.

    that said, the closest species in GW2, atleast biologically, would probably be Norn and Human (basing it purely on their physiology, appearance, etc.) kinda like how you have a Lion + Tiger = Liger hybrid (but again, it's incapable of reproducing)


    that said throwing all the science away, it'll probably look really weird to have an asura + human.... and a charr + human or norn would probably look like FF14's Hrothgar

    then there is the practical issue, development cost

    that is potentially a 20x increase in the amount of animations, armors, voice actors, etc.
    even if you reuse/duplicate a lot and manage to cut that down to 2x it is still a significant increase

    or you can maintain the same cost but have sloppier results for everything, game assets aren't just going to magically come into existence

  • ya i knew the cost would a game killer, but what about class merging?

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  • What about a Charr and a cat you see from divinity reach tho? Can’t they reproduce ?

  • DeanBB.4268DeanBB.4268 Member ✭✭✭✭

    We have class merging already. It's called Elite Specializations. It turns an elementalist into a sword-wielding battlemage, for example.

    What you are asking for would be a re-do of the game systems, and I think it is far too late for any such considerations.

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  • Astyrah.4015Astyrah.4015 Member ✭✭✭✭

    dual class-ing like in GW1 is nice for build diversity and may open up more fun playstyles for all professions but it will be one hell of a nightmare to balance

    and as mentioned by DeanBB -- we already have elite specs :)

  • If you want to mix with Sylvari you gotta pollinate the Pale Tree with some kind of mammal dna which would be um weird. Sylvari anatomy does not have a reproductive function.

  • Zephire.8049Zephire.8049 Member ✭✭✭

    For the lore side, it would be impossible as only animals that are similar enough to each other can even produce offspring but those offspring are almost always sterile. One of the exceptions to this is wolf x dog hybrids, but that's because domestic dogs are a subspecies of wolves so they're genetically similar enough to produce viable offspring. However wolf x fox or dog x fox is impossible because while everyone involved is in the canidae family, they are too genetically separate to produce offspring, let alone offspring that are able to reproduce themselves. (You also have to have the male be the smaller of the two if there's any notable size difference, otherwise there's a good chance that the female and/or offspring will die during the birthing process as the fetus will be too large)

    Charr, norn, and asura are the only playable races that evolved on Tyria yet they're very much different species, not even in the same family. Sylvari are new and magical and don't reproduce sexually, period. Humans evolved on a different planet thus cannot be related to any other species.

    Even if you involved magic (since this is Tyria) it would need to override DNA and chromosomes and keep a pregnancy viable to full term, and do so without Full Metal Alchemist-ing the fetus. How much of this magic could be produced and be accessible to anyone and everyone who wanted to have a hybrid baby?

    Now for the development side, there's the added design work, assets, and voice actors, among other things. With the exception of norn and humans, every other combination has drastic differences. It's not like something such as D&D where you can just slim/bulk up the hybrid, alter their height, and change their skin colour and call it a day. It would take a lot of time and effort to come up with hybrid designs that would be acceptable internally, which says nothing about whether players would like the designs or not. And they'd have to come up with 20 hybrid designs so no race was left out. If they can't/won't come up with a single new player race, why could/would they make 20?

    Something like hybrids would need to be designed for in mind from the ground up. Or at the very least, design the game so new playable races would be easy to add, something which is not the case with GW2 or the GW2 engine.

  • I know people are talking about biology and about what the developers stated however, let us consider asuran science.
    There exists a hybrid already in Metrica province named Indri
    The wiki does not include the little readables you find in the area you fight her. She used Ploint's Norn growth hormone on herself to become a massive asura. I mean that is technically gene therapy but also technically almost a hybrid!

    Asura could potentially create hybrids using this method. But what benefit would that have for developers to go to the trouble of offering ---

    What if, Asura must do this to help the races adapt to some harsh environment?

    But yeah still, I don't see this happening because they would have to design a whole infrastructure to implement it, and new art.

  • Hybrids in Tyria tend to either be horrific monsters or products of sloppy science like the Asura and Skritt who have swapped bodies after the Thaumanova Reactor incident.

    In the past, devs have confirmed that the various races can't reproduce with each other, but there are a number of them in the game who have cross-species relationships and who have adopted children. Considering how many disasters hit Tyria every year, it's probably for the best that adoption is the primary method of obtaining a kid for interspecies couples.

    So many orphans. So many.

  • Anchoku.8142Anchoku.8142 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Think it might be easier for the developers to create disguise tonic recipes for each species. That way, those of inferior intellect can pretend to be Asura. At least, until they open their mouth to try to say something intelligent.

  • Atomos.7593Atomos.7593 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Anchoku.8142 said:
    Think it might be easier for the developers to create disguise tonic recipes for each species. That way, those of inferior intellect can pretend to be Asura. At least, until they open their mouth to try to say something intelligent.

    But the only thing you need to say to pretend to be an intelligent Asura is "excelsior". :p

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 15, 2020

    From what I know it's as simple as genetic incompatibility within the lore.
    There is nothing in theory preventing mixed race relationships but none of the races can interbreed and produce hybrid offspring.

    Sylvari despite taking the form of Humans are vastly different in biology, their skin is like bark, their blood like golden sap and even though they can and do enjoy doing horizontal tango with one another they completely lack any and all reproductive capability.
    All Sylvari are born from the Pale Tree.. which does make them technically all siblings.. but we'll not get into that lol

    The most common mix race pairing I often see is people saying Human and Norn because Norn are just giant humans pretty much.
    This is very very wrong though, Humans and Norn are not related in any way shape or form.
    The Norn have far more in common with the Kodan if anything and some lore does speculate that the Norn may actually be a separate evolutionary line of the Kodan and they may share a common ancestry.. much like kitten sapiens and Neanderthals did.
    (and yes we'll have to deal with kitten sapiens being a thing now because of the profanity filter lmao)

    Humans on the other hand.. well to put it bluntly, we're Aliens in this world.
    Others have said it here too and they are correct, Humans are not native to Tyria and some people tend to forget that sometimes.
    We don't know where Humans came from or why they came to Tyria, all we know is that they apparently came from the mists and it was the Human Gods who brought/sent them here.
    There are some confusing parts involving Canthan lore as well but it's generally accepted that all Humans are not native to Tyria.. so yeah Humans not being able to interbreed with Norn despite some physical similarities does make perfect sense.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @DaVid Darksoul.4985 said:
    Why do we see no hybrids such as a norn/charr or asuran/human? That would be awesome to have, although sylvaria would not be included since they don't reproduce sexually. It would be solely cosmetic since all races and classes have the same base stats, with the possibility of different elites. I also would really love to have split classes such as GW1 had, my toon was necro/ele, very strong. Different base stats system such as used by D&D games could also be applied to hybrids maybe? Would be a way to break the mundane. Sylvaria maybe could be included if a way to merge souls to create a lifeform was invented. Just rambling thoughts here ojn making GW2 more interesting.

    http://archive.is/9r1NG

    "Jeff says that Inter-species hybridization is not plausible, there are no half-norn, half-charr, half-sylvari and so on."

  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 15, 2020

    One point of confusion is that players think Humans and Norn are similar because of appearance. However its strongly suggested in game that the Norn are closer to Kodan and their bestial forms might be their original appearance, especially that of Bear.

    Its said that Norn "stopped being bears" (paraphrased) by the Kodan, though they viewed it as a de-evolution.

    Presumably they ended up with a Human-like appearance for the same reasons Human evolved to look the way they do in real life, because its an optimal form for the Norn whose hunting-based culture depends entirely on them being avid toolmakers. Humans and Norn even could've evolved down the same path visually despite being completely different biologically and from separate worlds.

    See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convergent_evolution

    Though the Charr managed to become industrialised with paws so YMMV.

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  • Klypto.1703Klypto.1703 Member ✭✭✭

    Charr and Norn make humans :) Also Sylvari and Asurans together make really smart trees.

  • Palador.2170Palador.2170 Member ✭✭✭✭

    While it wasn't possible when the game started, it's TECHNICALLY possible now. The skyscale creation proved that if you get just the right things in the presence of just the right amount of magic (ie.: One kitten-load of), you can create something new based off of whatever the magic has to template off of. So a couple of, say, a charr and a human being together near enough magic could 'create' the baby in that way. However, that would require a LOT of research and work.

    Far, FAR simpler would be for someone to create a more advanced transformation potion and use that to turn the male of the two into the same species as the female. The child would be the mom's species, but still influenced by the father's attributes. In a M Charr/ F Human pair, the kid would be human but their hair might be the color of the charr's mane and they may be a bit sharp of tooth. You'd never notice that they're not baseline human from just meeting them on the street, though, so you could be walking past hybrids all the time and not know.

    (Also worthy of note is the fact that the potion idea would allow female/female to have a kid. Or even sylvari/non-sylvari.)

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  • Obliviscaris.6937Obliviscaris.6937 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 15, 2020

    A non-Charr having intercourse with a male Charr would be blindingly painful. If you don't know what I'm talking about, well...I'll throw the word 'barbed' out there.

  • Curunen.8729Curunen.8729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I suppose Rox and Braham must have had something going on, though the game in general isn't Mass Effect level of interspecies funny business, whether or not it leads to hybrids

    Thinking about asura and charr, the mechanics of it would appear to be... problematic. :dizzy:

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  • Norn and humans may look the same in appearances, but they are likely very different. Humans where brought to Tyria by the Gods. This might be partly esoteric as it is part of a religion, but it is recent and the Gods themselves are proven to be existing deities. There us no disputing lore. The only debate is wether or not they came to the world Tyria or the continent Tyria. Specially as humans have existed longer in Cantha and Cantha counts as the origin of the human race.
    About the origin of Norns is not much known. Kodak believe they can from Kodak. Jotunns have confirmed that they once ruled the shivepeaks together with the Norn. This dates them before the moment the Gods came to Tyria and brought the humans as well. So biological they are very different and most likely even like aliens are biological different from us.

  • DeanBB.4268DeanBB.4268 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @DaVid Darksoul.4985 said:
    ... norn/charr or asuran/human? ...

    Why stop there? What about the people who want to play a quaggan-charr? Quagacharr? Charrgan? :open_mouth:

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  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 15, 2020

    All things considered though I wouldn't mind if we had a humanoid furry race.

    I love the Charr and that GW is one of the few franchises that have an actual furry race without trying to sugar coat it as some kind of "catgirl" hybrid, but also its a nightmare on customisation. The engine is clearly designed primarily for humanoid models.

    It'd also be nice to have the option of tails on Asura, too. (Yes, even if they clip.)

    Bring up Wardrobe preview and see how nice "Dragon Fireworks Backpiece" looks on them with the animated tail!

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  • Einlanzer.1627Einlanzer.1627 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Biologically, the only crossover that might be possible is human and norn, and there's certainly no guarantee of that.

    So I think it's right we don't have "hybrids."

  • Donari.5237Donari.5237 Member ✭✭✭✭

    As others have noted, canon is that the different races cannot interbreed, established in the early days of the game. It's one of the few unequivocal dev lore statements we have. Maybe a very well-funded high-tech gene lab with a specialized krewe could manage a one-off (hey, it's how Spock was made), but the health of the result would be a concern and we certainly aren't going to see oodles of hybrids running about.

    Of course the devs could rewrite anything they wish, and they've had a lot of turnover since launch and have heel-turned a number of lore items and npcs. But as I personally really like this bit of lore, I hope they stay consistent with it.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 15, 2020

    @Donari.5237 said:
    Maybe a very well-funded high-tech gene lab with a specialized krewe could manage a one-off (hey, it's how Spock was made), but the health of the result would be a concern and we certainly aren't going to see oodles of hybrids running about.

    Nah, even the Inquest has avoided gene splicing for the purposes of covert infiltration after a 3417 page dissertation was presented to the council with the conclusion the resulting hairless abomination was an abject failure devoid of any intelligence, so Project Logan was discontinued and presumably disposed of.

    gaggle - /ˈɡaɡ(ə)l/ - noun
    A disorderly group of Asura.
    "The gaggle of Asura tried to agree on whether a phase-shifted thermonuclear energy matrix was sufficiently powerful for a device capable of heating bread"

  • Atomos.7593Atomos.7593 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Hehe. The comments in this thread gave me a good laugh. =)

  • WorldofBay.8160WorldofBay.8160 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 15, 2020

    @Zephire.8049 said:
    Sylvari are new and magical and don't reproduce sexually, period.

    while they themselves don't, i doubt they appear asexual because if they did they'd all be mere clones. we all know how different sylvari are, they have to originate from a bigger gene pool than just one ancestor. also there is more than one of those spawn trees existing.

    mordremoth won't likely be the reason as his further developed minions lack uniqueness, apart from a few chosen ones and the occasional specially transformed sylvari (e.g. faolain).
    also you wouldn't want your minions to have a distinct personality, you would want tools that are highly specialized in their task and inside their group exact copies (clones).

    remember that most plants rely on sexual reproduction even if some of them also have the ability to clone themselves. otherwise all blossoms and many fruits wouldn't exist.

  • Donari.5237Donari.5237 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @WorldofBay.8160 said:

    @Zephire.8049 said:
    Sylvari are new and magical and don't reproduce sexually, period.

    while they themselves don't, i doubt they appear asexual because if they did they'd all be mere clones. we all know how different sylvari are, they have to originate from a bigger gene pool than just one ancestor. also there is more than one of those spawn trees existing.

    mordremoth won't likely be the reason as his further developed minions lack uniqueness, apart from a few chosen ones and the occasional specially transformed sylvari (e.g. faolain).
    also you wouldn't want your minions to have a distinct personality, you would want tools that are highly specialized in their task and inside their group exact copies (clones).

    remember that most plants rely on sexual reproduction even if some of them also have the ability to clone themselves. otherwise all blossoms and many fruits wouldn't exist.

    Well, the Pale Tree saw to it that sylvari podded out as individuals shielded from Mordy. She apparently used vaguely human forms due to humans in her vicinity way back when. More sylvari don't come from anywhere but Pale Tree pods (or from other Trees we'll never see since they are on the HoT cutting room floor); they don't reproduce with each other. They definitely aren't going to cross-breed with non-sylvari. Note this is distinct from their existing as sexual beings -- they do have the 'naughty bits' and the enjoyment of using them, but will not have offspring as a result.

  • Xervite.5493Xervite.5493 Member ✭✭✭

    I think you are confusing the term race with species, idk why these tyrian categories are termed as races when it should be species.

  • @Xervite.5493 said:
    I think you are confusing the term race with species, idk why these tyrian categories are termed as races when it should be species.

    Its a common trope of Fantasy works to use Race instead of Species.

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  • A lot of the answers here focus on the lore reason behind this, and while they're interesting to read, I don't think it really answers the question – if the writers/designers had wanted to include hybrids, they would have changed the lore to accommodate that. As far as I know we don't have an official explanation as to why they decided to make the lore that way, so we can only speculate, really. I think there are lots of good reasons though, e.g. it would be a lot of work for little (if any) gain; it would dilute the distinctions between the existing races; if they were selective about which race combinations could produce hybrids (which they would have to be) they would still have to explain away those that can't; hybrids are arguably overdone in other fantasy stories/games, etc.

    @Astyrah.4015 said:
    and a charr + human or norn would probably look like FF14's Hrothgar

    I find it kind of weird that Final Fantasy has a race called "Hrothgar". It's like if a European game had a race named after a legendary Japanese emperor or something. I googled them and to me they look like charr if they were designed by someone who had never seen a panther and had no actual interest in animals.

    @Xervite.5493 said:
    I think you are confusing the term race with species, idk why these tyrian categories are termed as races when it should be species.

    No, I'd argue that 'race' is the correct word here. Races in fantasy are more closely connected to classes of mythological creatures than they are to species of animals, and the word 'race' has been used in that context (referring to the races of angels, demigods, giants, satyrs, etc.) continuously since the 16th century. Also bear in mind that "correct" English is determined by usage, and basically all fantasy literature uses 'race' rather than 'species'. In the case of Guild Wars specifically, the game itself uses the word 'race', for example, asking you to "select race" (rather than species) at character creation.

  • Actually female ligars are fertile, one zoo found that out when they had one in the same enclosure as a male tiger or lion, I forget which. This happy accident has caused researchers to re-investigate hybrids in general. It would seem most hybridization of exotic animals such as ligars was primarily focused on generating impressive male specimens and they kinda didn't care about the female offspring. short sighted, but I guess the rich guys funding such projects wanted the larger or more colorful male animals/birds to show off. Kinda sad because breeding female ligars with male tigers then breeding those offspring with another female ligar, on and on, you could eventually get a fully fertile breed of giant tiger. The new rule is that all male hybrids are sterile and some female hybrids are fertile.

  • Stephen.6312Stephen.6312 Member ✭✭✭

    @DaVid Darksoul.4985 said:
    Why do we see no hybrids such as a norn/charr or asuran/human? That would be awesome to have, although sylvaria would not be included since they don't reproduce sexually. It would be solely cosmetic since all races and classes have the same base stats, with the possibility of different elites. I also would really love to have split classes such as GW1 had, my toon was necro/ele, very strong. Different base stats system such as used by D&D games could also be applied to hybrids maybe? Would be a way to break the mundane. Sylvaria maybe could be included if a way to merge souls to create a lifeform was invented. Just rambling thoughts here ojn making GW2 more interesting.

    I believe that we do have two human subspecies, possibly even three. But, as others have pointed out, for various reasons they cannot reproduce with each other.

    Want to delve into some theories about the lore and story of GW2? Check these posts out: The Search For Answers P1 and The Search For Answers P2.

  • @Obfuscate.6430 said:

    The wiki does not include the little readables you find in the area you fight her. She used Ploint's Norn growth hormone on herself to become a massive asura. I mean that is technically gene therapy but also technically almost a hybrid!

    no, it is not. It is tchnically using hormone therapy. Not a hybrid and genetics play no role in it at all.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 20, 2020

    @DaVid Darksoul.4985 said:
    Why do we see no hybrids such as a norn/charr or asuran/human? That would be awesome to have, although sylvaria would not be included since they don't reproduce sexually. It would be solely cosmetic since all races and classes have the same base stats, with the possibility of different elites. I also would really love to have split classes such as GW1 had, my toon was necro/ele, very strong. Different base stats system such as used by D&D games could also be applied to hybrids maybe? Would be a way to break the mundane. Sylvaria maybe could be included if a way to merge souls to create a lifeform was invented. Just rambling thoughts here ojn making GW2 more interesting.

    Unlike D&D, GW upholds the rationality of biology, and not "humans can mix with anything because reasons!" This means the only hybrids that will exist will be like mules or ligers - only possible through closely related species, and most (if not all) hybrids being sterile.

    Humans are aliens to the world. They're not closely related biologically to any species in Tyria. Even if norn look like "big humans", they're actually cousin species to either the jotun and ogres, or to the kodan (the lore isn't entirely clear) - if hybrids are possible, then between those species is the most likely. Asura are of the rodent genus, while charr of feline genus. So charr, norn, and asura - being basically cats, bears/giants, and mice, are too distant to be capable of producing hybrids.

    Though, perhaps, there's a close enough relation between asura and skritt - in a bit of irony.

    Outside of the lore, there's the cost for all the new models and the potential issues that may be born for armor or animation rigging.

    @DeanBB.4268 said:
    We have class merging already. It's called Elite Specializations. It turns an elementalist into a sword-wielding battlemage, for example.

    What you are asking for would be a re-do of the game systems, and I think it is far too late for any such considerations.

    Wouldn't be an entire re-do of the game systems to allow secondary professions. They already set up a function emulating that for WvW events.

    @Brimstone.3807 said:
    If you want to mix with Sylvari you gotta pollinate the Pale Tree with some kind of mammal dna which would be um weird. Sylvari anatomy does not have a reproductive function.

    Not really. The Pale Tree was never "pollinated" by humans - the Pale Tree chose to use the humanoid shape and based their appearance off of what she saw. In theory, the Pale Tree could make sylvari look like anything, just as we had Blighting Trees in HoT producing mordrem that looked like wolves, trolls, raptors, colocals, etc.

    @Palador.2170 said:
    While it wasn't possible when the game started, it's TECHNICALLY possible now. The skyscale creation proved that if you get just the right things in the presence of just the right amount of magic (ie.: One kitten-load of), you can create something new based off of whatever the magic has to template off of. So a couple of, say, a charr and a human being together near enough magic could 'create' the baby in that way. However, that would require a LOT of research and work.

    Far, FAR simpler would be for someone to create a more advanced transformation potion and use that to turn the male of the two into the same species as the female. The child would be the mom's species, but still influenced by the father's attributes. In a M Charr/ F Human pair, the kid would be human but their hair might be the color of the charr's mane and they may be a bit sharp of tooth. You'd never notice that they're not baseline human from just meeting them on the street, though, so you could be walking past hybrids all the time and not know.

    (Also worthy of note is the fact that the potion idea would allow female/female to have a kid. Or even sylvari/non-sylvari.)

    That's not really hybrids really, the skyscales was the Mists creating something using Kralkatorrik as a template. This is the exact same thing as Razah from GW1, and is really the same as Fractals except Fractals copy entire space-time events, and not simply using one individual or group of individuals in random creation.

    And it has nothing for "just the right amount of magic" - The Mists isn't made of magic, it's made of proto-matter. And isn't very controllable.

    @Xervite.5493 said:
    I think you are confusing the term race with species, idk why these tyrian categories are termed as races when it should be species.

    GW2W does label them as species.

    @Tommo Chocolate.5870 said:
    A lot of the answers here focus on the lore reason behind this, and while they're interesting to read, I don't think it really answers the question – if the writers/designers had wanted to include hybrids, they would have changed the lore to accommodate that. As far as I know we don't have an official explanation as to why they decided to make the lore that way, so we can only speculate, really.

    But the fact that ANet writers had established lore explaining why there's no hybrids, established that ANet has decided they don't want to accommodate the existence of hybrids.

    No, I'd argue that 'race' is the correct word here. Races in fantasy are more closely connected to classes of mythological creatures than they are to species of animals, and the word 'race' has been used in that context (referring to the races of angels, demigods, giants, satyrs, etc.) continuously since the 16th century. Also bear in mind that "correct" English is determined by usage, and basically all fantasy literature uses 'race' rather than 'species'. In the case of Guild Wars specifically, the game itself uses the word 'race', for example, asking you to "select race" (rather than species) at character creation.

    It'd be correct - to various degrees - for D&D, but not GW.

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    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @DaVid Darksoul.4985 said:
    Why do we see no hybrids such as a norn/charr or asuran/human? That would be awesome to have, although sylvaria would not be included since they don't reproduce sexually. It would be solely cosmetic since all races and classes have the same base stats, with the possibility of different elites. I also would really love to have split classes such as GW1 had, my toon was necro/ele, very strong. Different base stats system such as used by D&D games could also be applied to hybrids maybe? Would be a way to break the mundane. Sylvaria maybe could be included if a way to merge souls to create a lifeform was invented. Just rambling thoughts here ojn making GW2 more interesting.

    The dev's simply stated its not possible. The races as far as I recall in the lore can mingle like that, they can love and be loved and marry outside of their species but they cant breed with them.

  • Palador.2170Palador.2170 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    That's not really hybrids really, the skyscales was the Mists creating something using Kralkatorrik as a template. This is the exact same thing as Razah from GW1, and is really the same as Fractals except Fractals copy entire space-time events, and not simply using one individual or group of individuals in random creation.

    And it has nothing for "just the right amount of magic" - The Mists isn't made of magic, it's made of proto-matter. And isn't very controllable.

    What I'm saying is that it could 'create' a hybrid without worrying about parents, if the conditions are right, much like how the first generation of skyscales didn't have parents.

    And while the magic may not technically be needed, it seems that creating something out of the mists like this is very rare, normal events don't seem to make that kind of impression on it. That's where the magic would be needed, to make that impression. (Though I may be wrong about that.)

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  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @DaVid Darksoul.4985 said:
    Why do we see no hybrids such as a norn/charr or asuran/human? That would be awesome to have, although sylvaria would not be included since they don't reproduce sexually. It would be solely cosmetic since all races and classes have the same base stats, with the possibility of different elites. I also would really love to have split classes such as GW1 had, my toon was necro/ele, very strong. Different base stats system such as used by D&D games could also be applied to hybrids maybe? Would be a way to break the mundane. Sylvaria maybe could be included if a way to merge souls to create a lifeform was invented. Just rambling thoughts here ojn making GW2 more interesting.

    Unlike D&D, GW upholds the rationality of biology, and not "humans can mix with anything because reasons!" This means the only hybrids that will exist will be like mules or ligers - only possible through closely related species, and most (if not all) hybrids being sterile.

    Humans are aliens to the world. They're not closely related biologically to any species in Tyria. Even if norn look like "big humans", they're actually cousin species to either the jotun and ogres, or to the kodan (the lore isn't entirely clear) - if hybrids are possible, then between those species is the most likely. Asura are of the rodent genus, while charr of feline genus. So charr, norn, and asura - being basically cats, bears/giants, and mice, are too distant to be capable of producing hybrids.

    Though, perhaps, there's a close enough relation between asura and skritt - in a bit of irony.

    Outside of the lore, there's the cost for all the new models and the potential issues that may be born for armor or animation rigging.

    @DeanBB.4268 said:
    We have class merging already. It's called Elite Specializations. It turns an elementalist into a sword-wielding battlemage, for example.

    What you are asking for would be a re-do of the game systems, and I think it is far too late for any such considerations.

    Wouldn't be an entire re-do of the game systems to allow secondary professions. They already set up a function emulating that for WvW events.

    @Brimstone.3807 said:
    If you want to mix with Sylvari you gotta pollinate the Pale Tree with some kind of mammal dna which would be um weird. Sylvari anatomy does not have a reproductive function.

    Not really. The Pale Tree was never "pollinated" by humans - the Pale Tree chose to use the humanoid shape and based their appearance off of what she saw. In theory, the Pale Tree could make sylvari look like anything, just as we had Blighting Trees in HoT producing mordrem that looked like wolves, trolls, raptors, colocals, etc.

    @Palador.2170 said:
    While it wasn't possible when the game started, it's TECHNICALLY possible now. The skyscale creation proved that if you get just the right things in the presence of just the right amount of magic (ie.: One kitten-load of), you can create something new based off of whatever the magic has to template off of. So a couple of, say, a charr and a human being together near enough magic could 'create' the baby in that way. However, that would require a LOT of research and work.

    Far, FAR simpler would be for someone to create a more advanced transformation potion and use that to turn the male of the two into the same species as the female. The child would be the mom's species, but still influenced by the father's attributes. In a M Charr/ F Human pair, the kid would be human but their hair might be the color of the charr's mane and they may be a bit sharp of tooth. You'd never notice that they're not baseline human from just meeting them on the street, though, so you could be walking past hybrids all the time and not know.

    (Also worthy of note is the fact that the potion idea would allow female/female to have a kid. Or even sylvari/non-sylvari.)

    That's not really hybrids really, the skyscales was the Mists creating something using Kralkatorrik as a template. This is the exact same thing as Razah from GW1, and is really the same as Fractals except Fractals copy entire space-time events, and not simply using one individual or group of individuals in random creation.

    And it has nothing for "just the right amount of magic" - The Mists isn't made of magic, it's made of proto-matter. And isn't very controllable.

    @Xervite.5493 said:
    I think you are confusing the term race with species, idk why these tyrian categories are termed as races when it should be species.

    GW2W does label them as species.

    @Tommo Chocolate.5870 said:
    A lot of the answers here focus on the lore reason behind this, and while they're interesting to read, I don't think it really answers the question – if the writers/designers had wanted to include hybrids, they would have changed the lore to accommodate that. As far as I know we don't have an official explanation as to why they decided to make the lore that way, so we can only speculate, really.

    But the fact that ANet writers had established lore explaining why there's no hybrids, established that ANet has decided they don't want to accommodate the existence of hybrids.

    No, I'd argue that 'race' is the correct word here. Races in fantasy are more closely connected to classes of mythological creatures than they are to species of animals, and the word 'race' has been used in that context (referring to the races of angels, demigods, giants, satyrs, etc.) continuously since the 16th century. Also bear in mind that "correct" English is determined by usage, and basically all fantasy literature uses 'race' rather than 'species'. In the case of Guild Wars specifically, the game itself uses the word 'race', for example, asking you to "select race" (rather than species) at character creation.

    It'd be correct - to various degrees - for D&D, but not GW.

    You seem to have misunderstood me. I know the lore of the Sylvari's origins. This post is regarding Hybrids. The Pale tree could possibly choose to seed a Charr shaped Sylvari, but that is NOT a hybrid. It's a Sylvari of another shape, no fur, or mammal based flesh. To achieve a Hybrid something would need to introduce genes from one the of the other races and splice it with a fruit from the Pale Tree, which would be weird.

  • Stephen.6312Stephen.6312 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 22, 2020

    Technically, it is possible to create "hybrids". The Toxic Hybrid is an in-game example of this. However, as numerous contributors to this thread have stated, hybridisation is unusual, often relies upon magitech, and hybrids tend to be out-of-place in the world around them. At this point, nothing is stopping the devs from stating that the norn were conceived by interbreeding between, say, jotun and humans. I think that such a statement would be highly irregular, though.

    Want to delve into some theories about the lore and story of GW2? Check these posts out: The Search For Answers P1 and The Search For Answers P2.

  • @Brimstone.3807 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Brimstone.3807 said:
    If you want to mix with Sylvari you gotta pollinate the Pale Tree with some kind of mammal dna which would be um weird. Sylvari anatomy does not have a reproductive function.

    Not really. The Pale Tree was never "pollinated" by humans - the Pale Tree chose to use the humanoid shape and based their appearance off of what she saw. In theory, the Pale Tree could make sylvari look like anything, just as we had Blighting Trees in HoT producing mordrem that looked like wolves, trolls, raptors, colocals, etc.

    You seem to have misunderstood me. I know the lore of the Sylvari's origins. This post is regarding Hybrids. The Pale tree could possibly choose to seed a Charr shaped Sylvari, but that is NOT a hybrid. It's a Sylvari of another shape, no fur, or mammal based flesh. To achieve a Hybrid something would need to introduce genes from one the of the other races and splice it with a fruit from the Pale Tree, which would be weird.

    I understood you. You said: "pollinate the Pale Tree with some kind of mammal dna"

    I merely responded by clarifying that's not how Blighting Trees' (and by extension the Pale Tree's) creation of minions work. And to clarify further:

    The Blighting Tree merely creates a minion of its design, and usually uses a "template" to work off of - in the harsh manner, it uses a body placed in a pod to copy directly; in the kinder manner like the Pale Tree, it takes observations and creates similar design (think about tracing a previous artpiece versus sketching a live model).

    There is no such thing as "introduce genes from one of the other races" in the creation of mordrem. Mordrem and sylvari are created by twisting local plantlife into minions while they're in pods where they gestate for a while. Mordrem corruption can infest a living being though - that's how Mordrem Wolves and Mordrem Trolls are made, but this is as much a hybrid as an icebrood is a hybrid with ice elementals, or branded are hybrids with crystal elementals - which is to say, not at all. And otherwise, all minions will be 100% plant.

    No hybrid is even possible. Just corruption.

    @Stephen.6312 said:
    Technically, it is possible to create "hybrids". The Toxic Hybrid is an in-game example of this.

    It's not a literal hybrid in the context of this discussion though. It's just a "sylvan krait" - it's pure plant, in the shape of a krait. It was called a "Toxic Hybrid" because it's a hybrid of Nightmare Court and Krait magics, not genes.

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    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Sylvari - Are Dragon minions, but purified.
    Imagine like, cute Destroyers. It'll be a wonder if they even have genitalia.

    Charr - Biologically, I don't see how they can hybrid with any other race but Norns/Kodans.

    Norns - Looks like a human, but they descended from Giants probably. I think there were some hints that maybe Norn and humans could interbreed, but in GW2 it's a hard no in lore.

    Asura - Who would wanna bone this thing. (jk, I think they are basically rats so maybe the skritt can interbreed with them)

    Humans - Are aliens. Nuff said.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • can you imagine a male norn with a female human, mountain from game of thrones?

    Always be rootin, always be tootin, and by golly always be shootin.

  • Eekasqueak.7850Eekasqueak.7850 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @DaVid Darksoul.4985 said:
    Why do we see no hybrids such as a norn/charr or asuran/human? That would be awesome to have, although sylvaria would not be included since they don't reproduce sexually. It would be solely cosmetic since all races and classes have the same base stats, with the possibility of different elites. I also would really love to have split classes such as GW1 had, my toon was necro/ele, very strong. Different base stats system such as used by D&D games could also be applied to hybrids maybe? Would be a way to break the mundane. Sylvaria maybe could be included if a way to merge souls to create a lifeform was invented. Just rambling thoughts here ojn making GW2 more interesting.

    Unlike D&D, GW upholds the rationality of biology, and not "humans can mix with anything because reasons!" This means the only hybrids that will exist will be like mules or ligers - only possible through closely related species, and most (if not all) hybrids being sterile.

    Humans are aliens to the world. They're not closely related biologically to any species in Tyria. Even if norn look like "big humans", they're actually cousin species to either the jotun and ogres, or to the kodan (the lore isn't entirely clear) - if hybrids are possible, then between those species is the most likely. Asura are of the rodent genus, while charr of feline genus. So charr, norn, and asura - being basically cats, bears/giants, and mice, are too distant to be capable of producing hybrids.

    Though, perhaps, there's a close enough relation between asura and skritt - in a bit of irony.

    Outside of the lore, there's the cost for all the new models and the potential issues that may be born for armor or animation rigging.

    @DeanBB.4268 said:
    We have class merging already. It's called Elite Specializations. It turns an elementalist into a sword-wielding battlemage, for example.

    What you are asking for would be a re-do of the game systems, and I think it is far too late for any such considerations.

    Wouldn't be an entire re-do of the game systems to allow secondary professions. They already set up a function emulating that for WvW events.

    @Brimstone.3807 said:
    If you want to mix with Sylvari you gotta pollinate the Pale Tree with some kind of mammal dna which would be um weird. Sylvari anatomy does not have a reproductive function.

    Not really. The Pale Tree was never "pollinated" by humans - the Pale Tree chose to use the humanoid shape and based their appearance off of what she saw. In theory, the Pale Tree could make sylvari look like anything, just as we had Blighting Trees in HoT producing mordrem that looked like wolves, trolls, raptors, colocals, etc.

    @Palador.2170 said:
    While it wasn't possible when the game started, it's TECHNICALLY possible now. The skyscale creation proved that if you get just the right things in the presence of just the right amount of magic (ie.: One kitten-load of), you can create something new based off of whatever the magic has to template off of. So a couple of, say, a charr and a human being together near enough magic could 'create' the baby in that way. However, that would require a LOT of research and work.

    Far, FAR simpler would be for someone to create a more advanced transformation potion and use that to turn the male of the two into the same species as the female. The child would be the mom's species, but still influenced by the father's attributes. In a M Charr/ F Human pair, the kid would be human but their hair might be the color of the charr's mane and they may be a bit sharp of tooth. You'd never notice that they're not baseline human from just meeting them on the street, though, so you could be walking past hybrids all the time and not know.

    (Also worthy of note is the fact that the potion idea would allow female/female to have a kid. Or even sylvari/non-sylvari.)

    That's not really hybrids really, the skyscales was the Mists creating something using Kralkatorrik as a template. This is the exact same thing as Razah from GW1, and is really the same as Fractals except Fractals copy entire space-time events, and not simply using one individual or group of individuals in random creation.

    And it has nothing for "just the right amount of magic" - The Mists isn't made of magic, it's made of proto-matter. And isn't very controllable.

    @Xervite.5493 said:
    I think you are confusing the term race with species, idk why these tyrian categories are termed as races when it should be species.

    GW2W does label them as species.

    @Tommo Chocolate.5870 said:
    A lot of the answers here focus on the lore reason behind this, and while they're interesting to read, I don't think it really answers the question – if the writers/designers had wanted to include hybrids, they would have changed the lore to accommodate that. As far as I know we don't have an official explanation as to why they decided to make the lore that way, so we can only speculate, really.

    But the fact that ANet writers had established lore explaining why there's no hybrids, established that ANet has decided they don't want to accommodate the existence of hybrids.

    No, I'd argue that 'race' is the correct word here. Races in fantasy are more closely connected to classes of mythological creatures than they are to species of animals, and the word 'race' has been used in that context (referring to the races of angels, demigods, giants, satyrs, etc.) continuously since the 16th century. Also bear in mind that "correct" English is determined by usage, and basically all fantasy literature uses 'race' rather than 'species'. In the case of Guild Wars specifically, the game itself uses the word 'race', for example, asking you to "select race" (rather than species) at character creation.

    It'd be correct - to various degrees - for D&D, but not GW.

    Asura aren't rodents, the teeth are all wrong. Skritt and Dredge might be closer.

  • @Eekasqueak.7850 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @DaVid Darksoul.4985 said:
    Why do we see no hybrids such as a norn/charr or asuran/human? That would be awesome to have, although sylvaria would not be included since they don't reproduce sexually. It would be solely cosmetic since all races and classes have the same base stats, with the possibility of different elites. I also would really love to have split classes such as GW1 had, my toon was necro/ele, very strong. Different base stats system such as used by D&D games could also be applied to hybrids maybe? Would be a way to break the mundane. Sylvaria maybe could be included if a way to merge souls to create a lifeform was invented. Just rambling thoughts here ojn making GW2 more interesting.

    Unlike D&D, GW upholds the rationality of biology, and not "humans can mix with anything because reasons!" This means the only hybrids that will exist will be like mules or ligers - only possible through closely related species, and most (if not all) hybrids being sterile.

    Humans are aliens to the world. They're not closely related biologically to any species in Tyria. Even if norn look like "big humans", they're actually cousin species to either the jotun and ogres, or to the kodan (the lore isn't entirely clear) - if hybrids are possible, then between those species is the most likely. Asura are of the rodent genus, while charr of feline genus. So charr, norn, and asura - being basically cats, bears/giants, and mice, are too distant to be capable of producing hybrids.

    Though, perhaps, there's a close enough relation between asura and skritt - in a bit of irony.

    Outside of the lore, there's the cost for all the new models and the potential issues that may be born for armor or animation rigging.

    @DeanBB.4268 said:
    We have class merging already. It's called Elite Specializations. It turns an elementalist into a sword-wielding battlemage, for example.

    What you are asking for would be a re-do of the game systems, and I think it is far too late for any such considerations.

    Wouldn't be an entire re-do of the game systems to allow secondary professions. They already set up a function emulating that for WvW events.

    @Brimstone.3807 said:
    If you want to mix with Sylvari you gotta pollinate the Pale Tree with some kind of mammal dna which would be um weird. Sylvari anatomy does not have a reproductive function.

    Not really. The Pale Tree was never "pollinated" by humans - the Pale Tree chose to use the humanoid shape and based their appearance off of what she saw. In theory, the Pale Tree could make sylvari look like anything, just as we had Blighting Trees in HoT producing mordrem that looked like wolves, trolls, raptors, colocals, etc.

    @Palador.2170 said:
    While it wasn't possible when the game started, it's TECHNICALLY possible now. The skyscale creation proved that if you get just the right things in the presence of just the right amount of magic (ie.: One kitten-load of), you can create something new based off of whatever the magic has to template off of. So a couple of, say, a charr and a human being together near enough magic could 'create' the baby in that way. However, that would require a LOT of research and work.

    Far, FAR simpler would be for someone to create a more advanced transformation potion and use that to turn the male of the two into the same species as the female. The child would be the mom's species, but still influenced by the father's attributes. In a M Charr/ F Human pair, the kid would be human but their hair might be the color of the charr's mane and they may be a bit sharp of tooth. You'd never notice that they're not baseline human from just meeting them on the street, though, so you could be walking past hybrids all the time and not know.

    (Also worthy of note is the fact that the potion idea would allow female/female to have a kid. Or even sylvari/non-sylvari.)

    That's not really hybrids really, the skyscales was the Mists creating something using Kralkatorrik as a template. This is the exact same thing as Razah from GW1, and is really the same as Fractals except Fractals copy entire space-time events, and not simply using one individual or group of individuals in random creation.

    And it has nothing for "just the right amount of magic" - The Mists isn't made of magic, it's made of proto-matter. And isn't very controllable.

    @Xervite.5493 said:
    I think you are confusing the term race with species, idk why these tyrian categories are termed as races when it should be species.

    GW2W does label them as species.

    @Tommo Chocolate.5870 said:
    A lot of the answers here focus on the lore reason behind this, and while they're interesting to read, I don't think it really answers the question – if the writers/designers had wanted to include hybrids, they would have changed the lore to accommodate that. As far as I know we don't have an official explanation as to why they decided to make the lore that way, so we can only speculate, really.

    But the fact that ANet writers had established lore explaining why there's no hybrids, established that ANet has decided they don't want to accommodate the existence of hybrids.

    No, I'd argue that 'race' is the correct word here. Races in fantasy are more closely connected to classes of mythological creatures than they are to species of animals, and the word 'race' has been used in that context (referring to the races of angels, demigods, giants, satyrs, etc.) continuously since the 16th century. Also bear in mind that "correct" English is determined by usage, and basically all fantasy literature uses 'race' rather than 'species'. In the case of Guild Wars specifically, the game itself uses the word 'race', for example, asking you to "select race" (rather than species) at character creation.

    It'd be correct - to various degrees - for D&D, but not GW.

    Asura aren't rodents, the teeth are all wrong. Skritt and Dredge might be closer.

    The various puns in Dredge territory suggests strongly that they are (communist) moles, not rodents.

    @Biff.5312 said:
    Exercise your whimsy.