How many Jormag are there?

[Eekasqueak.7850]

Language is just throwing stuff at a wall and seeing what sticks really.

[Teratus.2859]

It would have been better and made more sense simply based on the fact that Jormag isn't human therefore you can't dehumanise it.It isn't just used for objects it's also used for non human creatures too which Dragons in fantasy settings also qualify as.

[Tayga.3192]

Since English doesn't have a gender-neutral "he" or "she", people tend to use "they" instead.

As far as I know, Arenanet always used "he" or "she" for the dragons, no? Dragons have genders, and for obvious reasons they made Jormag a nonbinary (?) dragon. That's why sentient races call Jormag "they".

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

@"Tayga.3192" said:As far as I know, Arenanet always used "he" or "she" for the dragons, no? Dragons have genders, and for obvious reasons they made Jormag a nonbinary (?) dragon. That's why sentient races call Jormag "they".Actually, it was stated all the way back when GW first released that the dragons have no genders. they may refer to themselves using gendered words, but they are still technically genderless.

[Uden Reavstone.3426]

I'm surprised that this is not mentioned, but "they" is also the pronoun of choice for people who identify as non-binary, or, in other words, they don't identify as either male or female and, as such, don't prefer gender-specific pronouns such as "he" or "she."

[Fueki.4753]

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:Actually, it was stated all the way back when GW first released that the dragons have no genders. they may refer to themselves using gendered words, but they are still technically genderless.

Back when GW released, Arenanet didn't even have the idea of Elder Dragons.But in GW2, non-crystal dragons were usually referred to as 'it'.

[mercury ranique.2170]

@"Blocki.4931" said:

They is just referring to them as gender neutral beings.So only one.

That is not entirely correct. They is used to refer to an identity of unknown gender.Some that do not identify as either male or woman try use the word they as a replacement for he or she, but this is not how it is intended and not how language rules work. To make it an extension to the rule this should be used in this way for several years by a majority of the people speaking the language.I would rather say this is a dialect as it is used mostly in the LGBT-community (form a linguistic point of view). There are also people within the LGBT-community as they dislike the use of they as well (in essence it is no better then "it"). The most polite way to deal with situations where the current language has trouble with how people might identify nowadays is to use someones chosen name. An example. A third gender (or non-binary) name could be Andy (if that is the name the person identifies with). Then a good way is To say "Andy is up to something" instead of "They are up to something". Using someones name helps in avoiding any issues in the language hiats when dealing with third gender persons.

I also think that the writers know this and that they would refer to Jormag als Jormag when they wanted Jormag to be third-gender or non-binary in sexuality. I rather think they have other reasons to not specify it and handle it as an unknown gender. In essence dragons are not humans and the way they tick is very different. Gender is such a human term. For all we know are dragons hermaphrodites, but their existence is much more magical in essence then biological in the first place.

So tl;dr. They is used to refer to and identity of unknown gender. This indicates that Jormag is of unknown gender for some unknown reasons.

[Steve The Cynic.3217]

@Randulf.7614 said:

@"Bolbo Baggins.8594" said:In regular English language they means multiple, so i agree its confusing and should not be used. The majority of people (especialy outside America) dont know those alternative pronouns, call me oldfashioned but i stick to pre millenium English, which i learned at school.

As the poster above states, “they” has had multiple meanings or uses for a very long time. It’s not a post millennium thing

For a chunk of time in the 19th and 20th centuries, the "singular they" (referring to one person with a plural pronoun and a plural verb) was considered grammatically incorrect. (Then again, in 13th Century Middle English, the roles currently played by "he" and "plural they" used the same pronoun. It was spelled "he".)

[Clyan.1593]

It's a dragon. Maybe it's multiple dragons in disguise as one dragon. Whatever.It's still a dragony creature. The gender thing is just marketing.Imagine Jormag to come out and say he / she / it / they identify as a lesbian cactus automobile. So what? Still a dragon.Imagine Jormag to come out as a bim-bam-ziggedy-woobly-fitz-yabb-donker-dank. Yeah, what now? Still a dragon. Has to die.

[Psientist.6437]

The singular use of 'they' goes back centuries. Here is an article from The Oxford English Dictionary:

https://public.oed.com/blog/a-brief-history-of-singular-they/

It isn't confusing.

[Ben K.6238]

@Taril.8619 said:

@Greattyphoon.3120 said:

@Atomos.7593 said:

@Greattyphoon.3120 said:So just one? Why use 'they' if there is only one? (sorry, not native English speaker here)

Yes, there is just one Jormag. They is often used in English to refer to people without distinguishing between genders (for example when you don't know what gender the person you are referring to may be). So as an example, I would say over the internet about someone who's gender I don't know, they like GW2, instead of he/she likes GW2.

Ah okay I think I might understand. When I learned English, I was told "they" is always plural, and neutral singular was "it". But thank you for the explanation. Why not use "it" since Jormag is a dragon is also confusing to me. But thank you.

There's many reasons.

The most common one, is when speaking, a native English speaker will typically use "they" in the scenario, as it rolls off the tongue more naturally.

Another reason is that "it" can come across as impersonal or offensive when talking about a living thing.

It's one of the many silly quirks of the English language. But yes, both "it" and "they" can be used when talking about a singular entity and in fact can be used interchangeably in such a fashion and still be correct. Even if only "they" is usable when referring to plurals.

If I recall correctly, Bangar actually does refer to Jormag as "it". (Probably says more about his personality than it does about Jormag.)

[Fenella.2634]

So... We are trying to avoid offending a dragon we are likely going to battle, maybe kill? How nice of us. I wonder if Jormag cares which pronoun people use.

[Raknar.4735]

@Fenella.2634 said:So... We are trying to avoid offending a dragon we are likely going to battle, maybe kill? How nice of us. I wonder if Jormag cares which pronoun people use.

Jormag doesn't care about pronouns, Arenanet already stated that.

[Fueki.4753]

@Raknar.4735 said:

@Fenella.2634 said:So... We are trying to avoid offending a dragon we are likely going to battle, maybe kill? How nice of us. I wonder if Jormag cares which pronoun people use.

Jormag doesn't care about pronouns, Arenanet already stated that.

Then there should have been no reason to switch from it to they.Yet they did it anyway. I hope this remains as a singular hiccup.

[Teratus.2859]

@Fueki.4753 said:

@Raknar.4735 said:

@Fenella.2634 said:So... We are trying to avoid offending a dragon we are likely going to battle, maybe kill? How nice of us. I wonder if Jormag cares which pronoun people use.

Jormag doesn't care about pronouns, Arenanet already stated that.

Then there should have been no reason to switch from

it

to

they.

Yet they did it anyway. I hope this remains as a singular hiccup.

Indeed, in a way it kinda sounds like our mortal characters are making a big deal out of nothing lol.Perhaps we should stop projecting our human sentiment onto dragons XD

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@"Greattyphoon.3120" said:So just one? Why use 'they' if there is only one? (sorry, not native English speaker here)Because "it" - the singular gender neutral term - is considered highly offensive to use towards a living being.

Not that we actually care about Jormag's feelings, but it's just standard English grammar usage to not use "it" on living beings.

Granted, two decades ago, male pronouns were more often used when gender was unknown, but social movements since have led the use of "they" instead.

@"Fenella.2634" said:So... We are trying to avoid offending a dragon we are likely going to battle, maybe kill? How nice of us. I wonder if Jormag cares which pronoun people use.Jormag actually doesn't give a shit about what people call it. The Sons of Svanir - and most norn by extension - refer to it as a male. Jormag goes by whatever pronoun genderizing that makes it easiest to persuade and corrupt victims - male, female, or neutral.

Using "they" isn't for the notion of not offending anyone, but because it's proper English in modern times.

@Fueki.4753 said:

@Raknar.4735 said:

@"Fenella.2634" said:So... We are trying to avoid offending a dragon we are likely going to battle, maybe kill? How nice of us. I wonder if Jormag cares which pronoun people use.

Jormag doesn't care about pronouns, Arenanet already stated that.

Then there should have been no reason to switch from

it

to

they.

Yet they did it anyway. I hope this remains as a singular hiccup.It's switched because of Tyrian's view of Elder Dragons has grown since the beginning of the game, in large thanks to Aurene. Because of this, they went from the pronoun used for non-sapient gender neutral nouns, to the pronoun used for sapient gender neutral nouns.

Again: has nothing about "offending people".

If anyone were to be offended by using "it", it'd probably be Aurene, whom the Commander and friends don't really want to offend.

[Vancho.8750]

Jormag is 1000 skritt in a trench coat. That is why they is used.

[Danikat.8537]

For what it's worth I remember being taught in school in the UK back in the 90's that if you didn't know someone's gender you should say "they" instead of "it" because it implies an inanimate object. At the time it was seen as a largely hypothetical situation, it was mainly used for comparison to languages which do have non-gendered pronouns but also occasionally in situations where you didn't know, like "Who was on the phone?" "I don't know, it cut off before they could say anything". Technically "before he or she could say anything" is correct, but no one actually speaks like that and it would sound very artifical if you did.

By the time I got the internet in about 1998 it was pretty much standard practice to use "they" for people you didn't know. I remember being told by role-player communities in Ultima Online you use he/she to refer to the character and they to refer to the player because their gender wasn't necessarily the same as the character's. (This was long before voice chat, and back when everyone was still being told you must never give any personal information to anyone online because everyone except you was a psycho killer capable of tracking you down if they had so much as a first name and county to go on. And yet also back when "A/S/L?" for "Age? Sex? Location?" was a common greeting online.)

But on the other hand I still get emails at work addressed "Dear Sirs" because some people apparently think it's the only appropriate way to address an email (or letter) if you don't know who will be reading it. In a way it's useful because it identifies the ones who are contacting us for the first time and didn't bother to spend 2 minutes looking at the website to realise the entire department is made up of women.

@"Orion Templar.4589" said:Yeah, it's one of the frustrations of the English language. Using "they" for a singular pronoun is a common practice, even though it may not be technically/grammatically correct. Considering how so many new words get added to English every year just through common usage, it makes me wish we could collectively invent an acceptable singular gender-neutral pronoun, get it commonly used, and get it adopted into the language.

I think people have tried but none of them have caught on. A bit like having a punctuation mark to denote sarcasm, there's been at least 3 or 4 of those with different people supporting and encouraging their use and for whatever reason it's never caught on. The nearest we've got is /s which is sometimes used online, or various emoji (but those don't work everywhere and can be misinterpreted, especially when different software has different versions of the same one).