Necro staff rework / rebalance ideas

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

I'll apply my thoughts here. Yes Staff is a "utility" weapon, but that keeps Necro from having a decent long range dps option. So I'd suggest the following

AA) No longer a projectile, but, like scepter AA, is an effect chain at 1200. First Strike is 0.4 scaling, applies 1 stack of bleed for 5s, gains 2% LF. Second strike is 0.4 scaling, 1 stack of bleed for 5s and 1 stack of poison for 5s, gains 2% LF. Last strike is an AoE on the target that applies weakness for 5s and another stack of bleed for 5s, gains 2% LF per foe struck, scaling of 0.6. Cast times are 0.25, 0.25, and 0.5s.

2) As is but also applies 500 HP healing to all allies.3) As is, but also applies 5s of Vigor to allies in the area.4) As is, but also applies 4s of Resistance to allies in the area.5) As is, but also applies 2 stacks of Stability for 5s to allies in the area.

Add a flip over to each mark to detonate them.Soul Marks also increases the blast radius of each mark to 360 from 300.Add a trait that provides barrier (750) or protection (4s) to marks (one of them, just not sure which).

In summary, an AA chain that is easier to hit with, has higher overall dps that is supportive of either Condi or Power, generates more overall LF, and comes with a cover condi that has a nice Rune synergy.

Mark of Blood also offers a small heal that helps the party more, and helps keep minions alive better.Going off of the dual nature of Mark of Blood I add in a component to the other marks so that they benefit allies as well.Since people are smart enough to go around marks giving the necro the option of detonating them directly will aid in the weapons versatility as you could use the mark on your allies directly to provide the AoE buffs, or catch foes toeing the edge of the red circle. Soul Marks extending the blast range to 360 again helps with tagging players that think they are far enough away to not be caught in the detonation. Adding in another mark trait to provide more support to allies to cover the loss of support from wells losing protection, either barrier or protection. It would probably have to compete with Soul Marks though.

Edit: fixed typos.

[Anchoku.8142]

The problem with Necro is boons are so rare for the profession that balance takes into account a near zero chance of any concentration on equipment. This is why the boons that Necro does get tend to be long duration and stack quickly. Might is an example.

Adding boons to staff could result in some obscenly-long durations because Necro leans so far one way while most other professions lean the other. Necro actually relies heavily on conditions for sustain. It is strange and weird but that is Necro.

Also, Necro is forbidden by dev's to get stability. It has to remain weak to control effects.

[Brujeria.7536]

I think you can keep the base identity of the staff and still make it more usefull for scourge and support builds in general

1. The AA needs love. Its by far the most boring and weakest AA in the entire game. It has no real purpose, it has no chain. This gets amplified because the rest of the skills are quick casting, fire and forget kinda skills with low cast time. So ultimately you end up by using the AA a lot unless you can go into shroud. I would suggest adding a chain which consists of 3 projectiles, sequencing. Each projectile being faster than the previous one so that ultimately, if the target would not move, all projectiles hit at the same time. The first projectile causing torment, the second poison, the third bleeding. Each projectile that successfully hits a target will return back to the necromancer, healing up to 5 allies along the way + the necromancer. This would create a unique AA and add a support effect, the support necromancers offers is always driven by being offensive, so this would make a lot of sense.

2. Mark of Blood: This mark now has 3 charges, there can exist up to 3 marks of blood at once. The mark can be triggered by allies, as well as foes. The base effect has been changed to heal allies, and damage foes, the power damage has been increased by a lot. If the initial detonation hits both, an ally and a foe there will be a second detonation after a short delay that causes bleeding and regeneration.

3. Chillblains: This mark now initially causes immobilize and creates an damaging AOE field that causes chill and weakness. If the mark is triggered you get a sequence skill that lets you teleport to the mark location within 4 seconds of trigger, healing yourself and nearby allies with additional healing for each chilled foe around you.

4. Putrid Mark: This mark now also removes up to 2 conditions from allies around the impact site. This mark can only be triggered by foes

5. Reapers Mark: reduced the cooldown. This mark now converts 2 boons into conditions before causing the fear.

[Dagger.2035]

I’m hoping staff won’t be reworked since it has an identity and sees use in WvW. If a rework must happen less is more in my opinion. This reduces the chance the weapon ends up in a worse state.

I like the idea of only adjusting the auto attack to do more damage in instanced PVE. I’m guessing the damage is currently low because skill 1 pierces and can hit up to five targets. I like the idea above of adding bleeding to the auto attack. Then piercing can be removed since it will have higher single target damage.

[DeceiverX.8361]

@Anchoku.8142 said:

@DeceiverX.8361 said:It'd be nice if they just got rid of the dependency on Soul Marks so the weapon was reasonably good on its own. I don't see why it can't just be left as a good AoE kit and make Soul Marks' LF gains baseline and improve the trait. Or just put larger LF gains on skills 2 and 5. A big part of staff's problem is you blow your load and basically swap immediately due to cooldowns, or just stand there doing nothing waiting for recharges which are long comparatively speaking. Both make the weapon feel rather unexciting.

If they made its AA not absolutely suck as well, it'd be fine just with that set of changes since the weapon does have purpose in several scenarios.

Though I really think the weapon's usefulness is overstated. Outside of LF generation in blob fights it's heavily eclipsed by other options.

The problem is that Necromancer's marks, wells and shades or shouts readily stack in WvW. More AoE Necro's is more condi-pressure hence the shades target quantity and wells ICD being what they are. Staff could get it next.

It's currently best in WvW, but a far cry from something which defines necromancers in group play. Most people only take staff for Soul Marks and Skills 4/5, and skill 4 being a transfer is really where most of the potent conditions come from. The major majority of necromancer's AoE pressure comes from Wells more than any weapon skills.

It's also why I don't think they should buff the damage much. Giving it improved utility via LF generation without needing to take a trait is enough such that the weapon can maintain its power level in terms of damage, but still make it useful in more scenarios than WvW blobs, given that its LF generation is rather poor compared to other options like Axe/Focus and GS.

[Pooh.6897]

So many great responses already! I'm really blown away by the knowledge and creativity of this community. It seems the general consensus is that reworking the AA would be the best option, making it viable enough for PvE without messing too much with how it stands in WvW.

@Brujeria.7536 said:I think you can keep the base identity of the staff and still make it more usefull for scourge and support builds in general

1. The AA needs love. Its by far the most boring and weakest AA in the entire game. It has no real purpose, it has no chain. This gets amplified because the rest of the skills are quick casting, fire and forget kinda skills with low cast time. So ultimately you end up by using the AA a lot unless you can go into shroud. I would suggest adding a chain which consists of 3 projectiles, sequencing. Each projectile being faster than the previous one so that ultimately, if the target would not move, all projectiles hit at the same time. The first projectile causing torment, the second poison, the third bleeding. Each projectile that successfully hits a target will return back to the necromancer, healing up to 5 allies along the way + the necromancer. This would create a unique AA and add a support effect, the support necromancers offers is always driven by being offensive, so this would make a lot of sense.

This is a really good suggestion, although it would shake up staff in WvW a lot. The idea of support through offense is indeed very much a pillar of necro design and I feel like that would really fit for an AA. In fact, many necro weapons already offer support by applying conditions. Think about vulnerability on axe or chill on gs. While these are no direct boons to allies, they do benefit the team by providing increased damage. Of course there are, especially for instanced content, a few problems with this idea (such as that most groups don't rely on a single member to keep the vulnerability stacks maxed out).

Lately I've been really attracted to another core pillar of necro: bringing life from death. It's already something that is very inherent to the profession, most obvious by the minions. But the same idea can also be seen in the entirety of the blood magic trait line. You do damage, and in turn you get healing and other awesome benefits. It would be very cool if this core thought would be outlined in a support weapon and that very well could be staff. Applying boons as a necro might feel a bit weird, but if combined with doing damage and taking away something from the enemy it would be quite in line with the core philosophy. If you would condi transfer to an enemy and grant the opposite boons to an ally, that'd be something that screams necro to me.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

AA chain definitely needs major love and affection.

I think offering a flip over to detonate the marks would be useful as well regardless of how the skills are tinkered with.

[dceptaconroy.7928]

LF generation without the trait, that'd be enough to not cause an uproar or nerfing of another thing to 'balance'. A slightly fast AA would be great as well but that'd be just Crazy.

[killfil.3472]

Personally I wish they would completely rework all the abilities.Sure, 4 single-pulse AoEs is great for "tagging" in WvW, and short-term area denial in PvP, but aside from those very specific uses, I always found it lacking.I also feel like it is one of, if not THE least inspired/unique weapons in the game ; 4 circle, single-pusle AoEs.

There is so much potential!Whenever we use an ability, a shadowy scythe blade apears ; what if we used that blade? Either in melee or launch it like the old "Reaper's touch" focus skill?

[KrHome.1920]

Removing the staff trait and making either the unblockables or the LF generation of the marks baseline would be a buff when looking at the bigger picture. Speed of shadows could be picked for any soul reaping build and dread would be a strong option for staff necros while staff would have enhanced utility.

In contrast to the blood bank desaster this would be so good that they could even get away with a useless trash trait that replaces soul marks.

[Anchoku.8142]

@KrHome.1920 said:Removing the staff trait and making either the unblockables or the LF generation of the marks baseline would be a buff when looking at the bigger picture. Speed of shadows could be picked for any soul reaping build and dread would be a strong option for staff necros while staff would have enhanced utility.

In contrast to the blood bank desaster this would be so good that they could even get away with a useless trash trait that replaces soul marks.

Maybe...Both unblockable and LF gen increase are what made the staff trait useful; especially in PvP. Loss of the trait could also come with unexpected nerfs like baseline Greater Marks being rolled back leaving only small marks because large marks are too stronk in WvW, or similar nonsense.

Also, I have a fundamental problem with accepting trash traits so I would protest epic dev fails like always.

Staff could use a buff and split between game modes but the developers do unpredictable things and apparently do not perform detailed change impact analyses.

Edited for bad grammar. :-(

[KrHome.1920]

The more I think about it... if they remove soul marks and repace it with a trash trait, then speed of shadows will remain the only useful SR adapt trait. This would lead anet to think speed of shadows is overpowered and then they would nerf it to be in line with the other two traits.

[Josiah.2967]

I always wondering why not just make staff and greatsword do more damage if its ability hits one target.

[Mini Crinny.6190]

@Josiah.2967 said:I always wondering why not just make staff and greatsword do more damage if its ability hits one target.

I suppose they could do this with a split from WvW, single target in PvE and more damage, but the same as it is in WvW i guess is what you mean?

I don't think even with buffing staff to a certain degree in PvE would make staff a viable choice, it's incredibly slow and the skills aren't particularly good

[jpsssss.7530]

Staff is a pretty well rounded weapon IMO and doesn't need a change. It's used in so many PvP/WvW builds because its good.

[Brujeria.7536]

@KrHome.1920 said:The more I think about it... if they remove soul marks and repace it with a trash trait, then speed of shadows will remain the only useful SR adapt trait. This would lead anet to think speed of shadows is overpowered and then they would nerf it to be in line with the other two traits.

Unyielding blast can be good with reaper. It sucks for base necro and also is just mediocre for scourge though.

[Brujeria.7536]

@"jpsssss.7530" said:Staff is a pretty well rounded weapon IMO and doesn't need a change. It's used in so many PvP/WvW builds because its good.

I wouldnt say its because its good. Its rather because there is a lack of alternatives. If you play a condi build you can only really pick scepter and X + Staff. Axe / Dagger are useless for condi builds, same goes for the offhand weapons (unless scourge and torch). If you play as power reaper you lack good ranged weapons, you only have axe, which is decent at mid range, but you WANT a at least 1200 range weapon to close the gap somehow. If you play Core power nec you always pick axe and you lack a second good power weapon. Dagger sucks in like any build, so theres again - Scepter or Staff left. Scepter makes no sense as you dont spec for condi damage and also its secondary effects (cripple) is not worth it, so naturally, you also take staff here.

To sum it up: as core power nec you lack a good melee weapon set (your shroud is ranged, you always pick axe+X)As condi nec you lack a second pure condi weaponAs reaper you most of the times need a good longer range weapon as your shroud is melee and axe alone wont cut it.

Staff just fills all the holes in lack of a better alternative. The only Gamemode where it is "good" is WvW, but also falls very,very,very short compared to the other 1200 range weapons (compare to rev hammer or ele staff)

[Mini Crinny.6190]

@Brujeria.7536 said:

@"jpsssss.7530" said:Staff is a pretty well rounded weapon IMO and doesn't need a change. It's used in so many PvP/WvW builds because its good.

Staff just fills all the holes in lack of a better alternative. The only Gamemode where it is "good" is WvW, but also falls very,very,very short compared to the other 1200 range weapons (compare to rev hammer or ele staff)

I do agree that there isn't much going on with Staff on necro, but it's good to use to force a stealthed group the long way round or pop the marks on the ground so you will know where they are, the damage in WvW is okay but you can give people Fear (sometimes), Chilled and Poison, Comparing Ele staff to Necro staff is not really the way to go, the two classes are very different in terms of playstyle, mainly because Staff on ele has one decent skill and even that is RNG based, CC skills are kinda irrelevant since there is so much stability in the game and most of the dual attacks hit like a wet noodle apart from Plasma blast and Pyroclastic blast As for Rev hammer, I feel like this weapon on Rev is pretty much in a solid spot and doesn't need any changes, Jalis is more of a problem imo

[Anchoku.8142]

If staff were buffed, I suggest only doing so in PvE and not changing any functions; e.g.,

• Necrotic Grasp: increase chance for a combination finisher to 50% and increase range to 1500
• Mark of Blood: increase the number of bleeds applied from 2 to 3.
• Chillblain's: increase the number of poison stacks from 2 to 5.
• Putrid Mark: decrease cool down from 20 seconds to 16 seconds
• Reaper's Mark: increase damage by 200% and Fear duration by 100%

[Pooh.6897]

It really feels like the more I play with staff, the more I appreciate the weird mix of skills that it offers. Although it still feels like the AA is lacking in terms of utility, it is a weapon that, in practice, is actually quite nice to have. Condi transfer seems weird, but when you accidentally take some condis because of environment it’s very nice to just dump it back to the trash mob it came from. During fights it’s actually quite nice to provide regen to allies with mark of blood, although I really strongly feel that it should be on the auto attack. Yes, the damage it deals is low, but real life scenarios and arc dps showed me that in reality there are many people that don’t output the maximum dps for their class anyway. If I really want to shred, nothing on necro outperforms reaper with gs and the wells while in shroud. With my off meta build with dread and staff I’ve been consistently able to at least keep up with the top damage dealers.

That said, it would still be very welcome if staff had a stronger identity. Right now it lacks a strong focus in design.

[Lorelei.3918]

I use the staff as my Primary weapon. Here is my build: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PSQAYlNw6YPMMmJW6W+vNA-zZgOjCUARMB0zA

I know fear necros got nerfed in PvP but I still run one. The play style is basically like this: you have infinite LF, so just spam all scourge skills as soon as they come off CD, continually, while mixing in staff marks and a strategically placed fear field here or there. It's kind of a face roll build, which is good because when I panic I tend to just hit all the buttons and hope things work out.