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Current State Of Match Making - Bad Matches - Why? - Discussion


Trevor Boyer.6524

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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:The random human factors of when people play and what skills levels they are at the times of logging in to play, that the devs have zero control over, is the main factor.

Some of y’all want perfect matches every time you log in to play and that’s not gonna happen... But some of you expect that to happen and it’s unrealistic.

Again...that isn't what is being said or implied; that we want perfect matches every time we log in. Like I said, sure, there will be people who log in and just expect, for some weird reason, to win all of their matches and for them to go perfectly...but that is exactly why those people typically rage
themselves
off of the game either for the day or just the foreseeable future. I wouldn't say that those types of players make up the majority, nor even the higher end of the Divisions in Ranked or ATs, but yes...they do exist.

You seem to be stuck on this idea, a very big assumption, that players like myself or even @Trevor Boyer.6524 want to log in and just have "perfect" matches and that is very, very far from the case. I would say that is likely true for many who still play PvP to some extent, in fact I'd argue that many don't even take it seriously enough to warrant the assumption you're making; that they expect perfect matches when they log in. I think more often than not they are logging in and expecting to get a string of losses because of how things are working currently, but many try to, at the very least, have fun regardless. Thats how bad it has gotten, their expectations are
that
low for this game that they queue up and don't expect the matchmaking to actually, y'know, matchmake properly. I've actually seen several people on these forums just suggest to others whom asking about Ranked that they shouldn't take it very seriously, to just try and have fun with the PvP and not worry too much about climbing or anything.

Thats why I feel like your assumption of the circumstances kind of gets thrown out the window.

@Swagger.1459 saying that "people are expecting perfect match making" is kind of a convoluted response that changes the goal posts of what is actually being said here.

What is being said that has been said several several times over in a dozen threads within the past couple weeks even, is that people want to know why the match making doesn't even make sense anymore. They want to know why this is happening:
  • win 500 to 100 where the game is so easy they could have AFK'd and still won
  • Then lose 100 to 500 where the game was so hard that it felt like nothing they did even mattered
  • and then go on a lose streak from p2 to gold 3 where every single match is beyond unreasonably difficult
  • and then turn around and go on a win streak to p2 where every match is so easy that it confuses them as to why it is even happening
  • and then a lose streak back down into bottom gold 3 again where it feels like the algorithm is purposely situating win and lose situations, as if it were actually avoiding making balanced matches all together.

^ That's what people are inquiring about. No one is expecting perfect match making, but they are asking for an attempt to fix the obviously broken as hell match making that we are currently experiencing.

No, not “convoluted”, it’s pretty straight forward. It’s easy to see the pattern of complaints... Player get on teams that win and the matchmaker is good. Player get on teams that lose and the matchmaker is bad. Player thinks or knows they are good and assumes they should win most of the time, and if that doesn’t happen then it’s mostly the fault of the matchmaker and the devs should fix it...

Regardless of time of play you get a mixed bag of amounts of players and skill levels. Or do you think that the exact same amount of players of the exact same skill levels are on 24/7 for the matchmaker to perfectly sort out teams that satisfy your preferred match results?

The matchmaker has to sort in real time based off of the random amounts of players and skill levels that are queuing up... Devs can’t fix when people play, how good they are, what profession they use, how they play during a match... There are a ton of factors the devs don’t have control over and you think it’s some easy fix.

For 2 decades I’ve played a number of games competitively as a support player, and in GW2 I’ve seen the least competitive mindsets overall. Instead of blaming the devs, blaming other players, and assuming there is some magical fix for all the random human factors, I suggest working on your personal pvp skills and get a team of friends to play and practice with to increase the odds of winning.

Dude it's like you're not actually reading anything at all, or haven't since about 2018.

There are very real problems with the match maker right now and not once have I heard a single player say "Hey I think the match maker is good I'm winning" or say anything else that would even begin to encourage such an idea. People during wins right now are still baffled because match flow lately is like: Win a game 500 to 100, turn around lose a game 100 to 500, then win again 500 to 100. No one is praising any of this, they're wondering why every match is lopsided win or lose, and why it would seem that the match maker is completely avoiding balanced matches.

And furthermore no one believes there are magical fixes, which is the point of me writing this thread, to get community feedback to get a better idea of exactly where the problem or problems actually are right now. Then and then only, maybe, the community could toss Arenanet some real suggestions.

Seriously though man, this isn't idle complaint lately. If you haven't logged in to play in awhile, go do it and run about 10 games in ranked. Then we'll see if you come back here feeling the same way.

You, indeed, believe in a magical fix...

“I feel like these problems are simply not difficult to resolve“

By saying "magic fix" you imply magic as being something that isn't real that people only believe in.

My friend there is a big difference between hoping to fix the impossible and fixing the neglected.

You can ignore the facts all you want, but that won't change the facts of what I said. Instead of arguing to be right, I suggest absorbing the facts of the situation.

You accused the devs of not caring or implementing a "not difficult" fix, yet it is you, and some other players here, who do not understand the fundamental issues period. You want a magic fix to factors the devs do not have control over, but you think they do and that's your mental flaw.

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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:@"Shiyo.3578" Yeah see, just about every single player whom I've talked with that reports really unusual match making patterns that lead to really weird win & lose streaks and being like permanently stuck in this weird pattern, are all people who own first month release accounts. I mean seriously, I'm not just saying this. Even my main account is a first day release birth date.

I'm curious as to who else is experiencing these patterns and what their account birth dates are. I am also curious as to if any first month birth dates claim to be experiencing very normal match making that isn't volatile at all.

I think it's an important piece to the puzzle of figuring out what is going on here. I'm talking account birth dates, total games played, and a summary of that account's match making patterns. I'm really starting to believe that something went buggy somewhere along the lines with older accounts.

But I dunno, it could have absolutely nothing to do with it in the end.

My account is (pre-)release as well, and I often feel I have the same/similar problem. While I'm not a plat player (and probably never will be) I can play in gold and uusally still perform well. However, there are so many matches that are completely unwinnable (or already won) within 1-2 minutes - it's so obvious when a team (sometimes mine, sometimes now) just can not perform. One thing I noticed is that this effect is stronger (or maybe just feels worse?) when your rating is further away from where you could/should be - in (high) Silver I often feel like I couldn't impact games that much, in g1/g2 this already became better.

I've also noticed that it's almost impossible for me get placed into Gold in any season - 1200 is the "default" rating (50/50 wins) and marks the silver/gold border. But even with 6/10 placement wins I will usually end up placed in silver 2/3. I often feel like the 'soft reset' of MMR that's suppsoed to happen between seasons either doesn't happen at all; is so soft that it might as well not exits; or somehow takes into account all seaons/ratings you ever had

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@Shailyn Slay.7234 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:@"Shiyo.3578" Yeah see, just about every single player whom I've talked with that reports really unusual match making patterns that lead to really weird win & lose streaks and being like permanently stuck in this weird pattern, are all people who own first month release accounts. I mean seriously, I'm not just saying this. Even my main account is a first day release birth date.

I'm curious as to who else is experiencing these patterns and what their account birth dates are. I am also curious as to if any first month birth dates claim to be experiencing very normal match making that isn't volatile at all.

I think it's an important piece to the puzzle of figuring out what is going on here. I'm talking account birth dates, total games played, and a summary of that account's match making patterns. I'm really starting to believe that something went buggy somewhere along the lines with older accounts.

But I dunno, it could have absolutely nothing to do with it in the end.

One thing I noticed is that this effect is stronger (or maybe just feels worse?) when your rating is further away from where you could/should be - in (high) Silver I often feel like I couldn't impact games that much, in g1/g2 this already became better.

^ That's the kind of thing I'm talking about right there.

Regardless of what rating margins a player plays at, they report that the matches feel more difficult during the lose streaks, even if they are really low in rating, as compared to when they are at higher ratings and on a win streak. That is the same effect that I mentioned of when I go on a lose streak from p2+ and it won't stop until I'm nearly into g2. During those phases like that, the matches are unbelievably difficult for absolutely no reason, which doesn't make sense.

I mean we can go into discussion about bots and all that in the silver division, but I don't care what anyone says, your matches shouldn't be more difficult in silver division than in gold division. That doesn't make sense. I don't feel like I should have to explain all of the reasons why that doesn't make sense.

This problem is not just for plat+ discussion. People from all ratings are experiencing this kind of match making that really really just doesn't make any sense. People can sit and talk about "oh volatility oh bad luck" but what people reporting here are hard patterns that happen predictably like clockwork. This is hardly luck or volatility. Some algorithm function is causing this stuff to happen, and now with low population it is creating a really unfavorable gaming experience with these forced lose streaks and granted win streaks. The matches rarely feel competitive anymore, but more so that you are being allowed a match to win and then a match to lose.

I really think people would just be happier if the algorithm would stop with that, and would rather simply fix in average party rating vs. average party rating, with no concern for who is supposed to be going on a win streak back to 50% and who is supposed to be goin on a lose streak back to 50%. <- Because it is quite clearly doing this.

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You know what, I'm going to quote what he said here because I opened the thread referencing his thread but I didn't actually quote what he said. Incase anyone hasn't read his thread, this is what he said:

@"Vaan.3160" said:So I normally however around plat 2 within top 100 to 250 for the most part but this season my placement matches tanked me down to gold 3 due to 3(!) games with afks on my team, this was annoying but I just continued playing as normal finally ending up plat 2/3 and reaching rank 66 on leaderboards. From here on out it has been a string of constant losses, I have lost 15 of my last 20 games, every game a complete blowout (500-100, 500-50 etc), my team unable to rotate & insta feeding whereas the enemy team is absolutely destroying my team mates. I am often getting 3-4 top stats, no deaths etc but there is literally no way I can carry these teams, the odds are stacked dramatically against me it seems. I am playing the same class I always play (Sagebrand) and these games are not played all in a row, if I get 2 losses in a row I just stop at this point and try again tomorrow so there should be no tilting involved.

I feel like the matchamking is just completely tanking my rating with nothing I can do to prevent it, there is a clear skill gap between my team and the enemy, it feels like gold 2 vs plat 2 which is obviously ending awfully for me. From experience I expect the matchmaking to get me down to a certain level and then ill end up getitng 10 wins in a row which isnt really ideal, it feels like you are just along for the ride with the matchmaking which really sucks, the games are absolutely not even teams. I am sure I will get the "git gud" comments but I am consistently in top 250 at a mininum so I do know how to play but I cannot win these absolute blowouts, I play the same class as always and there has been no balance patch to change how this class performs in the meta.

TLDR Matchkmaking tanked me from plat 2/3 to gold with a string of 15 losses to 5 wins.

We have people in here responding saying that anet has no control over human factors and this and that. Yeah I get that. But in this case in 2020, literally everyone is reporting the same experience. This isn't rando luck here, this is definitely an algorithm function. I don't know why low population is making it so much worse than it used to be, but w/e the problem is, it's time something was changed with the algorithm or to remove ranked and put the rewards into ATs. It's just getting to a point where the matches aren't fun anymore in ranked mode due to this ridiculous match making.

Let me quote something I had said in a previous thread. An anet dev did show up and explain something like this to us at one point. What I wrote here is the best that I could remember what he said:

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:So years ago in the old forum, we had the programmer who worked on the algorithm explain this to us:

The algorithm does not simply try to balance RED team average rating vs. BLUE team average rating. It actually has two phases where during phase 1 it gives you a match that you should be winning or that is balanced so to say. But if you win that match and are outperforming your current MMR, it then does phase 2 where it gives you a match that is difficult, that is against rating margins that are higher than you would normally go against, to give you a chance to climb MMR. And it toggles these phases back and forth until a player finds where they get stuck at.

In years past with higher population, it resulted in matches that felt more like this:

  • RED 1600 - 1550 - You1500 - 1490 - 1480 vs. BLUE 1600 - 1550 - 1500 - 1490 - 1480, which is a completely balanced match outside of differences in team compositions. During this phase 1, it's taking all the players in queue who are supposed to be getting a normal match and putting them against each other, to find who the people are that are outperforming their current MMRs. Then it will put those people into a harder match in phase 2.
  • and then your hard match = RED You1515 - 1500 - 1490 - 1480 - 1470 vs. BLUE 1560 - 1515 - 1505 - 1490 - 1485, which is a phase 2 match where it has put you on a team of slightly lower rated guys who have been outperforming their MMRs, who are now against slightly higher MMRs of guys who have actually been underperforming at their current MMRs, so they have a chance to be challenged by guys who may be able to surpass them.

But now with low population where there is a large skew of MMRs/Ratings being placed together, we get wonky stuff like this going on:

  • RED Naru & Helios - You1500 - 1390 - 1350 vs. BLUE 1600 - 1550 - 1400 - 1380 - 1360, where in this situation the BLUE team is having their phase 2. Then if you win this match that you are supposed to be winning, it turns right around and phase 2s you against all of those higher MMRs.

So what's happening is that it IS actually stacking sides for wins and in a low population it definitely makes for obvious lopsided wins and lopsided loses. It's time they get someone to go back into the algorithm and remove that function that toggles the phase1 and phase2. It just needs to organically sort out who is doing well and who isn't, through sheerly matching average party rating vs. average party rating as close as it can get each round, with no buffer for who is being granted an expected win. That function DOES NOT work anymore in low population.

^ The algorithm actually does work that way, and now with low population, when it does those different phases it has limited players to choose from, which is largely why we are beginning to see massively lopsided splits. And tbh it just isn't fun because the games aren't competitive when that is happening. Every single person complaining about match making lately is saying the same exact thing: "I don't feel like I am able to effect the matches I am" because the games are becoming so tilted for those expected wins or losses, that it almost doesn't matter at all if a g2 player tries or not, when he's being put into a phase 2 and the other team has naru & helios on it and a p2 and a p1, yet the g2s team is stacked with gold. I mean come on, that's not fun at all. If they would just remove that function and MAKE the algorithm ONLY worry about average rating vs. average rating, it would be stacking the plats with high golds to go against legend players who have low golds, and that's the way it should be.

I have no idea how removing that function would actually effect glicko, but if it could be done, it should be done when population gets low in a game that is using glicko.

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@Swagger.1459 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:The random human factors of when people play and what skills levels they are at the times of logging in to play, that the devs have zero control over, is the main factor.

Some of y’all want perfect matches every time you log in to play and that’s not gonna happen... But some of you expect that to happen and it’s unrealistic.

Again...that isn't what is being said or implied; that we want perfect matches every time we log in. Like I said, sure, there will be people who log in and just expect, for some weird reason, to win all of their matches and for them to go perfectly...but that is exactly why those people typically rage
themselves
off of the game either for the day or just the foreseeable future. I wouldn't say that those types of players make up the majority, nor even the higher end of the Divisions in Ranked or ATs, but yes...they do exist.

You seem to be stuck on this idea, a very big assumption, that players like myself or even @Trevor Boyer.6524 want to log in and just have "perfect" matches and that is very, very far from the case. I would say that is likely true for many who still play PvP to some extent, in fact I'd argue that many don't even take it seriously enough to warrant the assumption you're making; that they expect perfect matches when they log in. I think more often than not they are logging in and expecting to get a string of losses because of how things are working currently, but many try to, at the very least, have fun regardless. Thats how bad it has gotten, their expectations are
that
low for this game that they queue up and don't expect the matchmaking to actually, y'know, matchmake properly. I've actually seen several people on these forums just suggest to others whom asking about Ranked that they shouldn't take it very seriously, to just try and have fun with the PvP and not worry too much about climbing or anything.

Thats why I feel like your assumption of the circumstances kind of gets thrown out the window.

@Swagger.1459 saying that "people are expecting perfect match making" is kind of a convoluted response that changes the goal posts of what is actually being said here.

What is being said that has been said several several times over in a dozen threads within the past couple weeks even, is that people want to know why the match making doesn't even make sense anymore. They want to know why this is happening:
  • win 500 to 100 where the game is so easy they could have AFK'd and still won
  • Then lose 100 to 500 where the game was so hard that it felt like nothing they did even mattered
  • and then go on a lose streak from p2 to gold 3 where every single match is beyond unreasonably difficult
  • and then turn around and go on a win streak to p2 where every match is so easy that it confuses them as to why it is even happening
  • and then a lose streak back down into bottom gold 3 again where it feels like the algorithm is purposely situating win and lose situations, as if it were actually avoiding making balanced matches all together.

^ That's what people are inquiring about. No one is expecting perfect match making, but they are asking for an attempt to fix the obviously broken as hell match making that we are currently experiencing.

No, not “convoluted”, it’s pretty straight forward. It’s easy to see the pattern of complaints... Player get on teams that win and the matchmaker is good. Player get on teams that lose and the matchmaker is bad. Player thinks or knows they are good and assumes they should win most of the time, and if that doesn’t happen then it’s mostly the fault of the matchmaker and the devs should fix it...

Regardless of time of play you get a mixed bag of amounts of players and skill levels. Or do you think that the exact same amount of players of the exact same skill levels are on 24/7 for the matchmaker to perfectly sort out teams that satisfy your preferred match results?

The matchmaker has to sort in real time based off of the random amounts of players and skill levels that are queuing up... Devs can’t fix when people play, how good they are, what profession they use, how they play during a match... There are a ton of factors the devs don’t have control over and you think it’s some easy fix.

For 2 decades I’ve played a number of games competitively as a support player, and in GW2 I’ve seen the least competitive mindsets overall. Instead of blaming the devs, blaming other players, and assuming there is some magical fix for all the random human factors, I suggest working on your personal pvp skills and get a team of friends to play and practice with to increase the odds of winning.

Dude it's like you're not actually reading anything at all, or haven't since about 2018.

There are very real problems with the match maker right now and not once have I heard a single player say "Hey I think the match maker is good I'm winning" or say anything else that would even begin to encourage such an idea. People during wins right now are still baffled because match flow lately is like: Win a game 500 to 100, turn around lose a game 100 to 500, then win again 500 to 100. No one is praising any of this, they're wondering why every match is lopsided win or lose, and why it would seem that the match maker is completely avoiding balanced matches.

And furthermore no one believes there are magical fixes, which is the point of me writing this thread, to get community feedback to get a better idea of exactly where the problem or problems actually are right now. Then and then only, maybe, the community could toss Arenanet some real suggestions.

Seriously though man, this isn't idle complaint lately. If you haven't logged in to play in awhile, go do it and run about 10 games in ranked. Then we'll see if you come back here feeling the same way.

You, indeed, believe in a magical fix...

“I feel like these problems are simply not difficult to resolve“

By saying "magic fix" you imply magic as being something that isn't real that people only believe in.

My friend there is a big difference between hoping to fix the impossible and fixing the neglected.

You can ignore the facts all you want, but that won't change the facts of what I said. Instead of arguing to be right, I suggest absorbing the facts of the situation.

You accused the devs of not caring or implementing a "not difficult" fix, yet it is you, and some other players here, who do not understand the fundamental issues period. You want a magic fix to factors the devs do not have control over, but you think they do and that's your mental flaw.

What facts, though? You're not actually showing any information to support your position, or explaining it, you're just saying something and declaring its a fact. You're also making a lot of assumptions as to the intent here, mostly under the basis of one particular assumption that people are just salty because they are losing. Normally I'd agree with you, thats just what the GW2 community is like, its their MO, but this thread is going about the effort and giving information and evidence as to what is potentially the issue with matchmaking to discuss it and why so many people get the idea that its failing somewhere.

You're trying to write it off as if the opinions expressed here, elaborated on with sound enough reasoning and information, are just invalid and incorrect because you assume the incorrect intent of this thread.

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@"Swagger.1459" said:The facts I already provided in this thread.

Literally all you said was that it boils down to time of day; when people are logged in and playing, or as you called it the "human factor". You didn't explain it beyond that. No information, no reasoning, nothing to back it up. You just proclaimed it was fact, which sure...time of day is a factor, but I would never call it the main factor as you have claimed. The reason it wouldn't be the main factor is really because peak hours exist in most games, especially MMORPGs. These hours are usually from like 8 or 9 PM EST to 12 AM EST, thats when most players are typically online for most games.

I think the idea that you need to take from this thread, and the points attempting to be made from it, are that all of these factors compound into an issue with the matchmaking system; or rather that the matchmaking algorithm stops doing its job correctly. It could be that the algorithm is just outdated and needs adjusting to account for the fact that, y'know, population is less, newer and older accounts have vastly different numbers of played games on them, time of day when any given player might queue, disparity between number of players within any given Division in Ranked, possibly what class they are queuing with.

Maybe if the Steam release brings in an influx of players, and it would have to be a massive influx, that will play sPvP then maybe that increase in the population could potentially alleviate some of the issues. However I don't expect for that said influx to stick around, and I also don't think that it necessarily will alleviate some of the issues...even if slightly, if anything it might drive those newer players away for a variety of reasons...which is the unfortunateness that is ANet and how they handle this game.

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fwiw, week 2 account, 12k matches, and I've always noticed the unwinnable streak behavior, followed by the landslide victories. Perhaps 1 in 10 matches is a close nailbiter. Pre MMR, I never really had the impression of streaks occuring, and close nailbiter matches were the norm.

That said I know I dont belong in plat when I streak into it, so I dont think the current MMR system is getting this "wrong" in terms of ranking me to gold 2-ish. But the quality of matches has suffered badly since the old days, with the system trying to force you to a 50% w/l ratio via stacked/handicapped teams. I dont let it bother me anymore though since I stopped being a tryhard in a broken system, and just accept that we have a deeply flawed game.

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The problem with the matchmaker is that it doesn't actually work.

All the extra parameters Anet added to the algorithm is in response to fixing issues that crop up in mathematical distributions when it comes to using ELO in a multiplayer environment.

Think about it. Your rating is based on the performance of 4 random strangers on a single win condition (winning or losing). The matchmaker prescribes you a number based on this single condition and it uses this to assess your skill level.

Let's say you started fresh and the matchmaker has no previous data to access your skill level right? It will place you in a match that perhaps might have mostly silver players, but your "real" skill level is platinum. That means the matchmaker is treating you as if you had a silver level rating, and the other 5 players on the opposing team are up against a player that is much better than them.

So now, when you inevitably win this game, the opposing 5 players lose a match and the matchmaker treats those players as if their skill level is higher than it should be, and the other 4 players on your team win a match, and now the matchmaker treats those players as if their skill is lower than it should be, even though those players all belong in their skill bracket, you were the outlier that cause their rating to be altered simply because you were there in the match playing at your real skill level.

Amalgamate this process on the order of many games and many players at all different real skill levels, and you end up with players who's true skill level is maybe silver or bronze in gold 3 level games or higher, and other statistical anomalies.

This is why the majority of players are in Gold 3. It's not because they are gold 2/3 level, it's because the matchmaker statistically has a higher chance of placing you there, whether you are experienced or not. This is why we see all kinds of skill levels in gold 3. All the extra parameters for setting up games is used as identifiers of your actual skill level so if it notices that you have played over 5000 games in your account life time, it will weigh that with your rating when determining which team you belong on when it goes to make a match.

The entire problem is statistical in nature, because ELO doesn't work in multiplayer environments. It was designed for Chess and for a good reason.

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I think the good/bad matchmaking tied to some accounts is completely random

I have 2 accounts, one old that I started playing before HoT and one 2 years old.

the new one has much harder games than the old one, I usually hang around 1480-1520, sometimes lower than that, never higher. No matchmaking glitch here, it's just the higher my skill can get me.

The second account games become hell if I'm higher than 1380, at this rating i start being matched against top 50s and even top 10s, the game just feel unpleasant cuz I know i can't win agaist those ppl. One of the accounts I don't know which always get those matches 5 randoms vs 2 duos + 1 random.

On the other hand the main account I can always squeeze myself into plat 1 with some offmeta build (core ele last season) without much effort, when I play against top 50s the teams are most times balanced, like my team is all plat, while their high plat duo has to carry gold 2s.

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@"vorpal.1497" said:fwiw, week 2 account, 12k matches, and I've always noticed the unwinnable streak behavior, followed by the landslide victories. Perhaps 1 in 10 matches is a close nailbiter. Pre MMR, I never really had the impression of streaks occuring, and close nailbiter matches were the norm.

That said I know I dont belong in plat when I streak into it, so I dont think the current MMR system is getting this "wrong" in terms of ranking me to gold 2-ish. But the quality of matches has suffered badly since the old days, with the system trying to force you to a 50% w/l ratio via stacked/handicapped teams. I dont let it bother me anymore though since I stopped being a tryhard in a broken system, and just accept that we have a deeply flawed game.

My biggest concern, is that there seems to be two different types of algorithm behavior for accounts, and really think about this here, as I am being very serious after viewing this and talking to players about it for nearly 9 years now:

  1. Behavior A - Exactly what you just described that you have experienced, which is the same thing I have always experienced on my main, as well as many many others. This is where the account's rating never seems to settle in the way that the algorithm notes say it is supposed to. This is where you are being shot back and forth between p2 and g2 all of the time, even if you play 300+ games in a ranked season, it never seems to hone in on where you actually are in terms of your real MMR vs. the community.
  2. Behavior B - This can even be viewed by watching leaderboards. Some people, including me on my alt, experience this behavior where it definitely hones in and does what the algorithm notes say it is supposed to be doing. You'll play about 30 to 50 games in a season and by that time you will find rather solid position and wins & losses will only ever knock you above or under that a very small margin of rating before you seem to return to it. In my example, my alt ALWAYS plays between quite exactly 1620 and 1580 solo queue. This has been happening for nearly 3 years now that I've been playing that alt.

My main ALWAYS is forced to play between slightly above 1600+ bouncing back down into g2 bottom 1400 range on a lose streak, then allowed to play back to 1600+ on a win streak, before it seems to automated lose streak back to 1400 again. It happens like automated clockwork and is predictable at this point. My alt is always solidly playing between 1620 and 1580, never drops out of that range unless I'm openly playing with some rating that is a lot lower than I am, and in that case I make up for it.

But these two algorithm types are definitely visible at this point in 2020, and there is no in between. Some accounts get solid match matching where they are able to play in a tight margin of rating which seems to strongly represent where they actually stand with their skill. But other accounts are ping ponged up and down the leaderboards on these tidal wave like shifts that most certainly feel automated or forced, and the volatility of those swings are massive like 200+ rating or something. <- That should not be happening if Glicko works the way it says it does. You can watch the leaderboards of anyone's name, and see these type A and type B patterns. Some guys play tightly at the same rating for weeks and months and 120 games, never rise or drop out of it, but then other guys are bouncing up and down 200 rating here and there all season long. What's important to note here is that the same people on the same accounts, experience this each and every season with no fluctuation in the pattern.

At this point in 2020, I'd just like to know why. And tbh I'd like my main to get match making like my alt gets. Being ping ponged around between 1600+ and bottom 1400 each and every season endlessly is just tiring man and it feels unfair.

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@"Shiyo.3578" said:Rating is meaningless.

Well the rating kinda does matter for having an ok match. The boundaries got washed off and I'm kinda getting tired of people not knowing what the fuck they are playing.I don't think it is my job to tell the thief to go and decap or the bunker to well bunker.
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Just to add to this, might help a little bit to figure it out.

I haven't touched GW2 for over 2 years, it wasn't even installed on my comp. Reactivated myself few weeks ago, started to play some unranked games to get familiar with the pvp balance once again.

Last week I played my very first ranked game after 2+ years, it was the 1st placement game out of 10. When I got demolished in less than 2 seconds every fight, my teammates started to question my playstyle, whine, etc... and complaining that they can't see me on the ranked top... as it happened, my team had 1 legendary and 3 plat level player... + me, fresh guy in his very first placement game... and we fought against equally high level people. Again, it was my very first 1/10 PLACEMENT game after 2 years... how the heck did I get into a match like this??? So I can confirm that something is not right, might be not enough players? (it was around 1am PST on US servers).

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@kmark.8519 said:Just to add to this, might help a little bit to figure it out.

I haven't touched GW2 for over 2 years, it wasn't even installed on my comp. Reactivated myself few weeks ago, started to play some unranked games to get familiar with the pvp balance once again.

So I can confirm that something is not right, might be not enough players? (it was around 1am PST on US servers).

Yes but this goes into what I was discussing about phase 1 and phase 2.

There is no reason why the match maker can't take 1 if not 2 of the plats and place them on your team, and put you and someone else low on the legend team, to make the match more balanced. At this point due to phase 1 and 2 w/e glicko is doing, it does that where it places legends & plats vs. golds which not only isn't competitive in any way, but it's a complete waste of time and simply not entertaining for anyone.

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If there was a much larger player base I don't think the issues we've seen would be as pronounced. My alt account w 200 matches is150 pts above my main account w/10k + matches played. I have to try hard supper carry on my main account. The alt account matches seem to be slightly more balanced.

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@"Zoricus.2439" said:If there was a much larger player base I don't think the issues we've seen would be as pronounced. My alt account w 200 matches is150 pts above my main account w/10k + matches played. I have to try hard supper carry on my main account. The alt account matches seem to be slightly more balanced.

Let me clear something up, because you mention "seem to be more balanced" rather than saying "seem to be easier".

Do the matches on the alt feel more balanced as in, not just the point outcomes, but over the course of say 10 matches, you are not seeing lopsided point results or even seeing lopsided results as in no clearly visual signs of one side being ultra dominant, nearly as often?

^ Because if that is the case, I'm telling you, this MMR effects match making under rating, total games played effects base MMR, is a function that just need to be reviewed. There is enough evidence adding up, from the players I've spoken with, that shows total games played base MMR inflation is causing some kind of janky problem in the match maker.

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Ok, I'm going to chime in here...and say...I always enjoy meme'ing in the gold 1 to plat 1 range especially on alt accounts.....as of late....I have noticed a definite uptick in the amount of "alts" some of who I know exactly who they are....and then others that I can tell just by playing them are clearly higher ranked players on alts playing down in dredges of ranked with me.....I personally think people are sick of playing competitive and just like to not give a crap on an alt account and play in ez mode tiers or tiers where they don't really give a damn. Also if you see someone you like maybe you try a little harder :)

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Your post is very long and accurate, congrats on your patience. Everything you said is out of experience and whoever says non sense such as “improve” and “don’t blame the matchmaking” clearly hasn’t read the thread.I am no veteran but I encountered all the problems you are talking about, either by experiencing it myself or hearing it from other friends/veterans. Something is wrong but we of course can’t put a word on what it is.Also, for those saying that wintrading and alt manipulation doesn’t occur that often, I completely disagree. People have found smart ways of not being discovered over time, but it happens everyday. Just check a few of the EU players in the leaderboard and if you say that everyone of them are legit I will laugh.

I would also like to point out another problem which is veteran players with lots of alts in the leaderboard. Why? It’s not fair to take another spot “just because” or for not letting other players below you taking it. It’s okay to have alts to play without being worried about the rating. It’s not okay having more than one account on the leaderboard at THE END of the season. (This is quite random rant, wanted to include it to not create a single thread myself)

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For me I since there are too many variables to keep track of but I consider a good game where both teams achieve over 330.Matchmaking in all games are pretty random I've found. They have always been more miss than hit.

My suggestion is have no matchmaking for unranked just have players que up as soon as there are enough players to play, start a match. If a person drops fill it in with someone who is waiting in que. Keep the match going after a match has been won take those people let them select their next map and move on. Randomize the teams each match from that group of players. People that want to play together will need to leave and reque as a unit to guarantee that they will be on the same team.

For ranked nothing is ever going to be perfect here.I was thinking a performance based system based on your match statistics. I think we need to get away from the Win loss mentality here and start rating people on their actual play. Lets say all the ratings were point based off performance.

  • If you Kill a person that is a higher ratting than you its worth more than lets say a plat player kills a bronze
  • caps
  • decaps
  • How long you fight on point
  • How much you healed your team for
  • Resurrections
  • Top stats awarded
  • strips
  • cleanses
  • If your team wins

All of these things would increase your rating.

I say stop punishing everyone for the loss. The people who performed poorly would not get many points. If we didn't have a system that took us back when we lose a match may inspire more positive play. This may even clear up some of the "toxic" behavior because the people doing well and hanging in there will still get some credit.

As people move up in points they will cross the different rating thresholds and the poor performers will not be able to cross them until they do get better because it will be hard for them to obtain points. As for the placement matches accumulate all the points earned through the matches then multiply by 20% and drop them into their ratting based on where they are in the system.

The actual match maker could stay the same in creating matches because you don't want people not to find a match ever because their rating is to high or low. But now the twist if you got grouped with a sub par team it would not effect you as much as it used to as long as your trying and performing well.

Of course there would be a concern about bots in a system like this. I say have a captcha when you click any matchmaker. Then Anet would not have to write back end processes to monitor a players behavior.

This is my best attempt at correcting this system rip it apart if you must but I feel its a pretty decent solution.

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